Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 21 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 300



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Passenger and freight costs
Re: Uniforms - pictures on-line
Re: X-boats
Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures
Pocket Empires
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #295
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #299
RE: stuff for sale
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #295
Re: Domed Cities Not Necessary
Re: Pocket Empire PBEM Software
Re: stuff for sale
Re: Solomani Rim Information
Re: X-boats
Re: X-boats
Re: Passenger and freight costs
Re: Solomani Rim Information
Re: Welcome to the Traveller Sale List.
RE: Domed Cities Not Necessary
looking for mega books and other stuff
Traveller's Digests.
Re: Gravitiational Charge
Re: Pocket Empire PBEM Software
Re: Solomani Rim Information
Re: stuff for sale
Re: Welcome to the Traveller Sale List.
Re: Solomani Rim Information
Re: CORE
Re: Uniforms - pictures on-line
Re: Domed Cities Not Necessary

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:17:55 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Passenger and freight costs

Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:41:05, Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>Not sure how common that is, but I have worked on naval systems for the Far
>>East whose primary purpose was piracy suppression, so I figure there are
>>still pirates around. The tack the client government was taking was not to
>>arm the merchantmen, but to put enough minor warships into the risk area
>>that pirates would be deterred. Of course that is much easier to do in a
>>small area of ocean with satnav and comms than it is in deep space...

>The piracy which governments in and around the South China Sea are worried
>about is essentially seaborne mugging - board the ship, nick the payroll
>and anything small and valuable and maybe kidnap the captain for ransom.

They are talking about piracy!

Shoot them!

Shoot them now!!!!



:-)

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 02:46:50 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Uniforms - pictures on-line

> Dress Me Up) and stuck it up on my web-page. These include a Naval uniform
> and (most of) an Army uniform. Discuss. Enjoy.
Hey Jo,
where can I get the lzh for this character? The pics are nice, though i
dont see some of those outfits IMTU. Anyway, do you have the data up
somewhere or just the pics?

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:54:36 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats

> >Merchants
> >need to be on board to watch cargo.
>
> Why?

Because they're greedy bastards :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:07:51 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures

At 05:28 pm 3/20/98 -0700, you wrote:
>This is only the top of the great graphics file format
morass...there
>really _is_ no such thing as a universal vector graphics format.
>
>If I were forced to vote, however, it'd be along platform lines..I'd
>prefer a .pict file.

	My suggestion is to cover more than one base. First of all, provide
the original file as the author created it. Those who have that
program, or a decent converter, can get the best-quality version to
play around with. Provide something like DXF for others, which most
vector programs can read to some extent. As an alternative, fall back
on WMF or PICT. Finally, if you can, provide a GIF at a standard
scale (i.e. 1"=300pixels), which can be sized down if needed. 300 DPI
provides decent printer output, AND allows sufficient resolution to
downsize adequately.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:44:05 -0800 (PST)
From: jwbrewer@ucsd.edu (James W Brewer)
Subject: Pocket Empires

Chris;

By doing it on two levels, ie the player character level and the macro
economic level made it much more interesting.  
I ran the Old Earth Union and tried to account for the lower tech but more
uniform tech levels in the Confederation era.  I would carry out economic
aid and technical aid to any world 3 or more tech levels below the Union
average.  This tended to hold back the more advanced worlds like Terra.
Over the long term, however the higher average tech and population levels
give you a lot more RUs to play with.  This would also in a "Contact with
the Imperium Era" give you less incentive to join the Imperium as you
already have a internal trade almost as good as the Imperium can provide.  A
unifromly higher tech and economic level also makes you much more expensive
to attack in subversion and trade wars.  This would explain why the Imperium
held off annexation of Terra until the 500's when its sheer size at that
time would give it the advantage. 

                     James W. Brewer
                     Univ. of Calif. at San Diego

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:03:47 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #295

> Maybe someday I'll translate some of my stuff into English and post 
> it on the WWW... 


YES! Please translate it to English I am starved for additional information
on the Ancients.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:30:16 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #299

> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:51:29 -0800
> From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
> Subject: Re: Welcome to the Traveller Sale List.
> 
> Sethkimmel wrote:
> > 
> > I didn't mean to cause trouble. I thought this was legit under the
heading of
> > information exchanging. Sorry.
> > 
> > Seth
> 
> Don't be.  While some of the exchanges get a bit...exuberent, I think
that this
> is probably the perfect forum for initially offering up material - most
of us
> are either well endowed with traveller material, or actively hunting for
more
> (or both)!
> 
> douglas


> 
> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:46:40 -0800 (PST)
> From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Welcome to the Traveller Sale List.
> 
> On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> > <rant>
> > Welcome to the Traveller Sale List.
> [snip throwing out the money-changers]
> 
> I for one am trying to restore my collection of Traveller materials. 
Much
> of this would not have been possible without the contacts I have found on
> the list.  There is no other centralized point on the Internet where this
> kind of information can be so readily given and obtained. 


These guys are on base! I am trying to restore my Traveller collection and
if it was not for the postings on TML I would be at a loss.

I think that the sale of hard to find information is a valid use of TML!

I have seen a bunch of S*** posted here that is TOTALLY USELESS with
respect to Traveller yet the same people drone on and on about topics or
tangents of topics that have no place on TML without a WORD of  OBJECTION
from anybody.

Let the content the TML be up to its administrator and stop complaining
about legitimate Traveller related dealings!

< / rant off>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:33:04 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: RE: stuff for sale

Does anybody have and Traveller stuff for sale or auction?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:30:17 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #295

jvhinkel wrote:
> 
> > Maybe someday I'll translate some of my stuff into English and post
> > it on the WWW...
> 
> YES! Please translate it to English I am starved for additional information
> on the Ancients.
<plug-mode on>
Ahhh, another chance to shamelessly plug my website:
Http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061/
Follow th lonk to the Domain of Deneb and from there to one of my
Ancients Pages. Any additions are always welcome.....
<plug-mode off>

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 21:33:58 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Domed Cities Not Necessary

At 7:41 AM -0500 3/20/98, trisen@postmaster.co.uk wrote:
>Anders Backman wrote:
>> > If any of you vist Minneapolis/St-Paul you will see a neat solution
>> > to the thin/tainted atmosphere problem typicall solved with domed
>> > cities. In St-Paul all the downtown buildings are interconnected by
>> > walkways on the first floor. You can shop, do lunch, see a movie
>> > etc. all without going outside. The St. Paul atmosphere is not very
>> > tainted and isn't thin but is very-very cold for a good fraction of
>> > the year.
>>
>> The surface area that need be airtight is much higher than using a
>> dome so I'd say domes would be more reasonable unless there's no
>> pressure differential and all you need is some filters.
>
>Calgary (Alberta) has the same thing.
>
>While it is true that the building surface area would be  greater
>than a dome there are a number of advantages which  would  offset
>this.
>
>First the 'modular' nature of the non-dome  approach  allows  for
>greater saftety.  Should there be an failure in the  system  (due
>to accident, sabotage, poor construction,  or  poor  maintenance)
>then only one building (or even only 1 floor of that building) is
>at risk ... as opposed to an entire dome.
>
>Second, cities are rarely built in one go but  slowly  grow  over
>time.  A city dome would be a huge engineering feat  representing
>"a substantial dollar investment".  Separate buildings  could  be
>erected on a need-for basis thus both  spreading  the  cost  over
>time and  giving  a  more  immediate  payback  as  buildings  are
>finished quickly.  City  founders  may  find  it  easier  to  get
>financial backing for a non-dome community.

And, as I mentioned before, a dome has tremendous force trying to
lift it off the ground and must be anchored *very* securely at
the edges.  A large enough dome is very likely to require supports
to hold it down which must be stronger than any existing (or even
possible) material.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:44:55 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empire PBEM Software

Brian A. Howard wrote:

> At 02:18 PM 3/20/98 +0000, you wrote:
> >Greeetings,
> >     Some time ago I announced that I had produced add-in software for
> >Galactic to do the calculations and roll-up and roll-out for managing a
> >PBEM Pocket Empire game. I put it up for beta testing on
> >ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/pesec.zip (although I may have the
> >address confused with the above message, pe.zip).
> >     I got absolutely zero response.
>
> Sorry to be so tardy, but I'll reply. I rather fancy being a guinea pig. :-)

it is indeed pe.zip

>
>
> >     I'm happy to run a Pocket Empire PBEM using this software. But it has
> >to be tested first. I've tested as much of the basics as I have had time
> >for. If you want a PE PBEM, get Galactic, put the software in, and make
> >sure you can run it. Send me the bugs.
> >     Cheers,
> >          Jo
>
> Silly question and please pardon my ignorance, but where am I supposed to
> put the thing once I get it?
>
Extract pe.zip into your galactic directory with file extensions/directories.
You'll also need to edit the gal.lst file to include pe (use a text editor for
this)
Then start up Galactic (gal.exe)
select/edit galaxy
pick the letter corresponding to pe
play around...

Note that I'm just a guinea pig, but I fiddled around with it until it worked.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 23:11:42 EST
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: stuff for sale

I have a copy of Alien Realms and Alien Module #1 (Aslan) that you could have.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 21:32:18 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Information

At 10:15 AM 3/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> >Adventure 1 - The Kinuir.
>> 
>> He's Good!  One Kinunir is described as being presented to the Vegans as
>a
>> gift, after having its weaponry altered slightly.
>
>Damn!  I was late.  Oh well.  If I remember correctly, one of the engineers
>who worked on the ship complains that such a well-made ship shouldn't be in
>the hands of those Vegan guys.  Bitter bitter...

Not to mention incorrect, seeing as Vegans don't so much have hands as
tentacles...

- --
+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:13:32 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: X-boats

One reason that you don't have the computer do all the important stuff is that
it isn't very interesting to have the PC's sit around while a machine takes
care of stuff.  I just tell my players that PC involvement is part of the
genre.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:09:59 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: X-boats

>I really don't know much about "canon" and never have been to keen on keeping
>obsolete junk just because someone says its common despite its inadequacies.

The lack of easy communications isn't a bit of junk in the system, it is
founding
principle of the background.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 01:11:26 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Passenger and freight costs

> From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> They are talking about piracy!
> 
> Shoot them!
> 
> Shoot them now!!!!

Argh, me hearties!  Nay!  I say we should keelhaul them!  Better yet, make
them walk the plank!  Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

Cap'n Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 01:21:29 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Information

> >Damn!  I was late.  Oh well.  If I remember correctly, one of the
engineers
> >who worked on the ship complains that such a well-made ship shouldn't be
in
> >the hands of those Vegan guys.  Bitter bitter...
> 
> Not to mention incorrect, seeing as Vegans don't so much have hands as
> tentacles...

And I quote:

"A naval armaments consultant (age 38, 656AAA) with assignments that take
him throughout this end of the Imperium worked on the Shuruppak when it was
being readied for transfer to the Vegans.  They ripped out the missile
racks and stored them in a naval warehouse at Efate (0105), replacing them
with simple dual lasers.  It was a shame to let that ship get into the
hands of the Vegans."

Chris
semo@pil.net
"...the best way to become a 'traveller' is to ride in an appropriate
craft."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 23:56:26 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Welcome to the Traveller Sale List.

At 04:14 PM 3/20/98 EST, you wrote:
>I didn't mean to cause trouble. I thought this was legit under the heading of
>information exchanging. Sorry.
>
>Seth

Don't be - it beats the hell out of the idiotic and never-ending jump/jump
gates/jump drive/jump grid/jump fuel/jump my bones threads.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 23:26:11 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Domed Cities Not Necessary

Only if the dome is not bonded to the surface of the city.  It would 
probably be easier create a sphere and sink half (or more) below the 
surface of the native ground.

douglas

- ----------
From: 	Bolie Williams IV[SMTP:bolie@io.com]
Sent: 	Friday, March 20, 1998 6:33 PM
To: 	traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: 	Re: Domed Cities Not Necessary


And, as I mentioned before, a dome has tremendous force trying to
lift it off the ground and must be anchored *very* securely at
the edges.  A large enough dome is very likely to require supports
to hold it down which must be stronger than any existing (or even
possible) material.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:06:04 +1100
From: scout <scout@microtech.com.au>
Subject: looking for mega books and other stuff

Hi all,

As is typical when using an obsolete system, it's very hard to find
replacement books when yours start to wear out. In my case my Megatraveller
books are beginning to fall apart (sticky tape just doesn't do the job any
more). I would be appreciative if anyone knows where I can buy the three
basic rulebooks for MT (Players, Referees and Encyclopedia). 
I would prefer to limit my purchases to my home country, so if there are
any aussie tav players out there who know any places I could find these
books (stores or people willing to sell) I would love to hear from you!

In other news :), my mail program did the big crash the other day, losing
all of my addressess (dammit).  I was on the TNE list (hey... stop looking
at me like that), but haven't heard anything from them for a few days.
Could some kind soul please give me the TNE lists address so that I can
mail to them (at the very least to see if it's still working) ?

Have a day everyone!!!

Scout

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:11:30 -0000
From: "Del Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: Traveller's Digests.

Joe,(and list)

Me too. I have TD 10+, TD 4 & 8, and MT Early Adventures(ie parts of 1-4) 
and have been looking for the
others for quite some time, but to no avail. I dunno if photocopies would
be allowed, but definitely if
permission could be got from DGP (or whoever holds licence for them), they
would be ideal for inclusion
in any forthcoming version of the CD ROM. (Brian???)

Del

Derrick Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK
dojones@whitestar.u-net.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:55:08 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Gravitiational Charge

> and the week nuclear force,

This is the one that is responsible for the duration of a jump :-)


Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:55:10 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empire PBEM Software

There is a trav missing from the URLs.  Try:

ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/secpe.zip   (555k)
ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/pe.zip      (404k)


Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 06:54:08 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Information

>> >the hands of those Vegan guys.  Bitter bitter...
>>
>> Not to mention incorrect, seeing as Vegans don't so much have hands as
>> tentacles...
>
>And I quote:
>
>"A naval armaments consultant (age 38, 656AAA) with assignments that take
>him throughout this end of the Imperium worked on the Shuruppak when it was
>being readied for transfer to the Vegans.  They ripped out the missile
>racks and stored them in a naval warehouse at Efate (0105), replacing them
>with simple dual lasers.  It was a shame to let that ship get into the
>hands of the Vegans."
>


I am sure the it was a figure of speech; not meant to describe the vegans as
having hands, but that they got the ship into their possession.

- -Shawn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 09:09:14 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: stuff for sale

- ----------
> From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: stuff for sale
> Date: Friday, March 20, 1998 10:11 PM
> 
> I have a copy of Alien Realms and Alien Module #1 (Aslan) that you could
have.
> 
> Seth

	Define HAVE.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:27:13 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Welcome to the Traveller Sale List.

>Can't we discuss Pirates instead ;-)

  Piracy? Did someone say piracy?

 Actually, it would work in the later 3I if they were
all secretly licensed by the Navy in some form, which
would explain why they don't chuck people out airlocks
or take ships instead of just the cargo - the documents
needed are much more expensive.

  Of course, once the Rebellion starts, the Navy sells
more permits to pay for more BatRons, and thus the whole
MT situation arise, while giving the appearance of being
an organic mechanism involving attrition and economics.

  Damn, the background just gets more sophisticated as
you analyze it thoroughly, don't it?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:06:29 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Information

> From: Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
>
> I am sure the it was a figure of speech; not meant to describe the vegans
as
> having hands, but that they got the ship into their possession.

So am I.  :^)

Unless, of course, as of "Adventure 1: The Kinunir" Vegans were supposed to
have hands :^)

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 16:31:02 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: CORE

On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:37:31 -0600, talisman wrote:

> HELP!!!
> 	I was looking at the core website when my browser crashed.  I do not
> remember the address and I didn't get the chance to mark it.  I have
> already deleted the message that I got the original address from.  Please
> post it again.

http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/home.htm



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:05:00 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Uniforms - pictures on-line

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> writes:
>KiSS programs a dolls are available from http://www.otakuworld.com/kiss. 
>This is the main source for KiSS stuff and is very well done.  You should
>be able to find a version of KiSS displaying software for whatever
>computer
>you have.

Some of the links on this site drop out periodically. I couldn't download
the Mac viewer, for example, because my ISP couldn't resolve the domain
name. Later it worked. Then it didn't...

Also, I couldn't get Jo's dolls to load on the Mac viewer. Apparently
these things aren't completely cross-platform...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:06:34 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Domed Cities Not Necessary

At 09:33 pm 3/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
>And, as I mentioned before, a dome has tremendous force trying to
>lift it off the ground and must be anchored *very* securely at
>the edges.  A large enough dome is very likely to require supports
>to hold it down which must be stronger than any existing (or even
>possible) material.

	Or you put weight on top of the dome. One suggestion I remember
seeing was roofing over craters with a flexible material. Rather,
you'd use two layers, with a meter or two space between them. The
volume between layers is filled with water. That counteracts the
immense upward pressure of the atmosphere AND provides additional
radiation shielding.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #300
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 22 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 301



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Water under the bridge
A call for artists
Re: stuff for sale
Re: Domed Cities Not Necessary
Re: Domed Cities Not Necessary
Re: X-boats
PBEM PE
Re: Domed Cities Not Necessary
Hard Times
Re: PBEM PE
Pocket Empires questions
Re: X-boats
Re: Hard Times
Re: A call for artists
Re: PBEM PE
Re: Fitting the Traveller background into a 3D universe
Re: Classic Traveller Career Question
Re: Classic Traveller Career Question
Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures
Personal Email
Re: Military protocol question...
Re: X-boats
Imperium no 60
Re: X-boats (fwd)
Re: X-boats
Re: Star distribution & Galactic

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:50:53 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Water under the bridge

> Oh my god, I'm going to cry.

Go ahead. I did, back then.

>You cruel, cruel, cruel . . . person.  (Is it Loren like Greene or Lauren
like
>Bacall but spelled different?)

Loren like Bacall, but spelled different, although Lorne as in Greene is
another variation, as is Lorna (female). I've encountered several men named
Loren, but only one woman who spelled it my way.

>Exactly how big a warehouse was this?
>
>No!  Don't tell me.  I couldn't take it.

I don't remember the square footage. I don't remember any Traveller products
going into the shredder...the distributors took most of them, and what they
didn't want we either sent to Crazy Egor or the local gamers got. I helped
Marc fill his car a couple of times, and I know he was there when I didn't see
him. 

Same with Twilight: 2000 -- distributor demand for that was pretty high. Most
of what went to the recycler was boardgame components, which I'm afraid
included a few Star Cruiser components (we got a bunch of volunteers to come
in and assemble SC's until we ran out of one counter sheet -- assembled games
we could sell to distributors, but they didn't want components). After we all
got done, before we called the recycler, we called the local hobby shop and
the game's club at the university, and lotsa gamers came by and walked out
with their arms full. 

There was a guy in Champaign Illinois that I sold a lot of my stash to when I
moved to Texas...forget his name but he sells on line. He's probably been
advertising a lot of Traveller stuff lately. 

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:50:55 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: A call for artists

As the Traveller Line manager for Steve Jackson Games, I am announcing that we
are looking for artists to illustrate the GURPS Traveller line.

Qualified applicants need to be able to meet deadlines, and follow our
instructions as to canon exactly. They also need to be willing to work for
what we are willing to pay, and to draw what we ask for, not what they feel
like. We need people who can work in color, but black and white alone is also
ok. We need people who can do good quality, hard SF type illos of spaceships,
people, astronomical scenes, aliens, and equipment (although you needn't be
able to do everything). Anatomy and accuracy are important. People who
specialize in large-eyed kittens on black velvet need not apply. 

A knowledge of the Traveller background is important, and a working knowledge
of GURPS would be nice, but is not required (these are pictures, after all,
not rules manuscripts). A willingness to re-execute a piece if necessary is
vital. 

Ability to fax or email sketches is a plus, and an Email address is a nice
thing to have.

Please send all responses to LKW@IO.COM and I will forward them to our new art
director. 

IMPORTANT: Please don't flood me with Email telling me who I should or should
not use, or telling me that I should hire "so-and-so" because he used to work
for DGP. If you happen to be on a first name basis with an artist who can meet
our qualifications, have them get in touch with me. I'd rather not deal with a
hundred messages telling me something I already know.

In case your interested, we are in touch with Bill Keith and Rob Caswell, and
negotiating. I am not at liberty to reveal more at this time.

We will look at physical portfolios, or web sites, or both. 

Loren Wiseman
   Marketing Director,
   GURPS Traveller Line Manager
   Steve Jackson Games

PS With the publication of GURPS Traveller, Pyramid will begin accepting
Traveller articles, and will not limit it to GURPS mechanics. Check the
website for writers guidelines (www.sjgames.com).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:26:27 EST
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: stuff for sale

Make a reasonable offer.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:05:17 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Domed Cities Not Necessary

At 11:44 AM -0500 3/20/98, Rob Prior wrote:
>"Justin Durkan" <jdurkan@iol.ie> writes:
>>If any of you vist Minneapolis/St-Paul you will see a neat solution to the
>>thin/tainted atmosphere problem typicall solved with domed cities. In
>>St-Paul all the downtown buildings are interconnected by walkways on the
>>first floor.
>
>And downtown Toronto has most of the major office building connected by an
>underground walkway system, with restaurants and shops lining the walkway
>level. Very convenient, if you know where you are going. (And if you
>don't, good luck, because there are no decent signs. Apparently each
>building owner wants you to shop at their building so they don't want you
>to easily find your way to the next building. Silly, but that's pure
>shortsighted capitalism in action on Bay Street.)

Houston has a similar setup in response to the extreme heat and rain.
Most downtown buildings are connected by underground (or some above
ground) tunnels.  They have shops and restaurants in them.  They
also have signs and maps scattered around along with some undeground
courtyards.

I think that more common than large domes will be small spheres
and individual buildings connected by walkways with special covered
parks for getting that "outside" feel.

One good reason for this is that a thin atmosphere planet with only
huge domes would be easy to conquer.  The invading fleet would just
shatter one of the domes and threaten to shatter the rest.  The
world would most likely surrender right away.  Shattering a dome
would be pretty easy, just fire projectile cannons or launch small
meteors at the dome in sufficient numbers that you make enough holes
to weaken the structure.  Once you get a sufficient sized hole, the
air would start rushing out and widen the hole until you had a
quite large hole and thin atmosphere inside the dome.

Large domes, I think, would be more common on worlds with standard
pressure and tainted atmospheres.  You could float the dome by
increasing the internal pressure just a bit over atmospheric and
keep the air pure.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 15:18:51 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Domed Cities Not Necessary

> >And, as I mentioned before, a dome has tremendous force trying to
> >lift it off the ground and must be anchored *very* securely at
> >the edges.  A large enough dome is very likely to require supports
> >to hold it down which must be stronger than any existing (or even
> >possible) material.

What about a geo-dome?  They do not require massive weight or support.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 98 22:57 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: X-boats

Moin David P. Summers,

> One reason that you don't have the computer do all the important stuff is that
> it isn't very interesting to have the PC's sit around while a machine takes
> care of stuff.  I just tell my players that PC involvement is part of the
> genre.

	Our group prefers that priest recalculates jump and other stuff
	the computer hands out. The priest is 587AB9, and is using a book
	and an abacus. An other ship has a dolphin as a captain, but most
	ships rely on a more or less insane computer. Imho TNE offers the
	best reason, why there are so many people on board. Automatisation
	levels of WWII U-Boats or even worse.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 16:00:24 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: PBEM PE

Ok, I have tried for 3 days now.  Can sombody just mail me the PE plugin
for galactic?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 15:31:31 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Domed Cities Not Necessary

At 03:18 pm 3/21/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>> >And, as I mentioned before, a dome has tremendous force trying to
>> >lift it off the ground and must be anchored *very* securely at
>> >the edges.  A large enough dome is very likely to require
supports
>> >to hold it down which must be stronger than any existing (or even
>> >possible) material.
>
>What about a geo-dome?  They do not require massive weight or
support.

	It's not really the weight of the dome or how you keep it *up*
that's the problem. It's how you keep it *down*--the pressure of the
atmosphere inside is huge.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:39:00 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Hard Times

I was wondering if someone could explain "Hard Times".

I haven't been able to see the actual product. 

I am curious as to what "Hard Times" does, when it does it and why.

Thanks,
Shawn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 17:50:59 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PBEM PE

talisman wrote:

> Ok, I have tried for 3 days now.  Can sombody just mail me the PE plugin
> for galactic?

  I'm sending it.  It's pretty big though.  This is just a warning so your
mailbox doesn't explode.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:56:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Pocket Empires questions

Hi,

I've been reading PE and a couple of questions have come up.

First, there are no limitations indicated for Resource Trade (pages
38-40).  It appears as if a world can gain Resources from imports and
exports even if it doesn't have anyone to trade with, or without regard to
the attributes of its trading partners.  I suppose it's easy enough to fix
by just ignoring either the problem or the rule, or applying a simple fix
that says you can't do Resource Trade without at least N trading partners.
What should N be valued at?

Second, unlimited population growth beyond Pop Code A doesn't seem to have
any effect on a world.  Shouldn't there be a variety of cultural, social,
and hence economic, effects resulting from this?  Shouldn't instability
result from overpopulation?  Don't many worlds have a hard limit to the
population they can support, given Resources and Infrastructure?  Doesn't
a population control policy effect Popularity?  Am I wrong or do we need a
lot of rules to deal with this issue?

More generally, do we just start using Pop Code B (hundreds of billions)?
What about C?  Or D?  Where is the limit, and what happens when it is
reached?  Surely war and colonization are not the only ways to "stabilize"
a population.

I realize this has probably been hashed out on the list before, but I
would have ignored the thread because I only recently acquired Pocket
Empires and found the time to read it.  I'd like to work out the apparent
logical gaps, because I think it would be a fun simulation to work on.

I know that some of the authors are on the TML.  Did you have more rules
for this, or ideas for rules, but not the time or the space to develop
them?  Is there a website or something else I've missed? 

So many questions, so few answers.  Some day I hope to provide more
answers and fewer questions.  :)


Thanks,
Clark


- --
"Remember, if you see a flash:  It's Duck!  And Cover!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 18:01:44 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats

Michael Koehne wrote:

> Moin David P. Summers,
>
> > One reason that you don't have the computer do all the important stuff is that
> > it isn't very interesting to have the PC's sit around while a machine takes
> > care of stuff.  I just tell my players that PC involvement is part of the
> > genre.
>

I'd be perfectly happy to accept the need for crew during jump if somebody can
provide a  canonical reference to crews actually doing something while jumping.
From  what I've read on the list, once you're in jump, you're there for the duration
and nothing can stop that (short of blowing yourself up).

>         Our group prefers that priest recalculates jump and other stuff
>         the computer hands out. The priest is 587AB9, and is using a book
>         and an abacus. An other ship has a dolphin as a captain, but most
>         ships rely on a more or less insane computer. Imho TNE offers the
>         best reason, why there are so many people on board. Automatisation
>         levels of WWII U-Boats or even worse.

I'm not even proposing that the computer calculate the course, just that it executes
the course.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 15:05:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hard Times

Hi Shawn,

Hard Times is a supplement for the post-Rebellion, pre-Virus Imperium
(1122-1128).  Well, not completely post-Rebellion, but well after every
sane person in the galaxy was sick of it and most of the resources used to
fight it were gone.  It gives campaign background material, economic UWP
effects, various adventures, and primitive spacecraft design rules (the
first for MT).  Each chapter details a different aspect of the Hard Times
(megacorps, finance, the Black War, raiding, doomed worlds, etc.) and
includes one adventure pertaining to the chapter material.

It's a really depressing book, but the primitive ships are neat.  The
pictures inside the front cover says it all (some poor political tagger
got his hand almost completely shot off by a trooper). 


Clark


- --
"Remember, if you see a flash:  It's Duck!  And Cover!"

On Sat, 21 Mar 1998, Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing wrote:

> I was wondering if someone could explain "Hard Times".
> 
> I haven't been able to see the actual product. 
> 
> I am curious as to what "Hard Times" does, when it does it and why.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:47:11 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: A call for artists

> In case your interested, we are in touch with Bill Keith and Rob Caswell, and
> negotiating. I am not at liberty to reveal more at this time.
Hi-hip hooray, all praise Loren! ;-) 
Gurps Traveller is beginning to sound better and better! When did you
say it should be out (need to start saving money)

> PS With the publication of GURPS Traveller, Pyramid will begin accepting
> Traveller articles, and will not limit it to GURPS mechanics. Check the
> website for writers guidelines (www.sjgames.com).
More great news. Finally a replacement slot for Traveller that could
fill some of the gap that challenge left beind (i miss that mag, sob!
One week before i heard of its demise i had determined to order a
subscription :-C  ) 

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
*Volker A. Greimann...Am Weidengraben 86, C6...54296 Trier*
********http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061*********
****grei5001@uni-trier.de* or try * greimann@geocities.com****
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 17:11:28 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: PBEM PE

Thank you.


- ----------
> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: PBEM PE
> Date: Saturday, March 21, 1998 4:50 PM
> 
> 
> 
> talisman wrote:
> 
> > Ok, I have tried for 3 days now.  Can sombody just mail me the PE plugin
> > for galactic?
> 
>   I'm sending it.  It's pretty big though.  This is just a warning so your
> mailbox doesn't explode.
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 16:46:28 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fitting the Traveller background into a 3D universe

Jens.Maskus wrote:

> What kind of ship do you use and how big is it?

The second ugliest ship in the traveller universe, a modified Leviathan
class Merchant Cruiser, 1800T, c/w externaly mounted 300T x 2 fuel
modules and a 100T cargo module. The major modification was the addition
of a 200T Safari type yacht in external grapple. 

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 16:53:42 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller Career Question

talisman wrote:
> 
> Well I have at least three in my JTAS books Sword Worlders. (snip rest)

Would/could you put the Sword Worlders data (or a summary thereof)
out to me, please. I do not have the JTAS book that covers that topic. 

Thanks
Jim Cooper

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:52:14 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller Career Question

I'll see if I can find my copy.


- ----------
> From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Classic Traveller Career Question
> Date: Saturday, March 21, 1998 6:53 PM
> 
> talisman wrote:
> > 
> > Well I have at least three in my JTAS books
> > Sword Worlders. (snip rest)
> 
> Would/could you put the Sword Worlders data (or a summary thereof)
> out to me, please. I do not have the JTAS book that covers that topic. 
> 
> Thanks
> Jim Cooper
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 18:21:45 -0800
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures

>Graphic Converter is the way to go for conversions on a mac.

Personally, I prefer PhotoShop, but Graphic Converter is certainly much
cheaper.

>But I agree with the person who said that .dxf sux. .wmf is a poor
>imitiation of a pict file, and the others are raster graphics.

Agreed.

>Unfortunately, .eps and straight postscript are useless for manipulation
>unless you have Illustrator, Freehand, or maybe Corel.

Or GhostScript, which is available for free on MS Windows, Mac, and Unix.

>.pdf, while attractive for distribution, doesn't allow editing.

Adobe Acrobat can edit PDF files directly. Or you can copy selected
pictures and text from a PDF and edit them on your favorite application.

>This is only the top of the great graphics file format morass...there
>really _is_ no such thing as a universal vector graphics format.

This is true, but PostScript is pretty good and has free editors available
for all the major platforms.

- --
Richard Hough
richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:53:56 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Personal Email

Please send personal requests and thanks for personal requests to
the person and not the list... I get enough mail without seeing
that someone would like another person to send them something and
then later that they are appreciative, etc...  Please send that
stuff off the list...

Thanks,
Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:38:07 -0600
From: eldwyn@juno.com
Subject: Re: Military protocol question...

On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:29:12 -0600 "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net> writes:
> I was wondering: how is a female
>command officer addressed? Sir, or Ma'am?
>
>
How 'bout 'Captain' ?

MarioC

- --I consider being sick one of the great blessings in life,
  provided one is not too sick, and one does not have to work until one
is   better....


_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:50:38 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: X-boats

Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:54:36 -0500, Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>

>> >Merchants
>> >need to be on board to watch cargo.
>
>> Why?
>
>Because they're greedy bastards :-)

Well, granted.  But if there is nobody onboard, who is going to steal it?

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 03:55 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Imperium no 60

Hy folks,

	the Imperium no 60 has currently 3 NMRs, if you are interested in
	a PBM and able to read'n'write german, send mail to

		Schrompf@orplid.shnet.org

	Next ZAT is Samstag, 4.4. 21:59 Uhr

	I hope we'll have a bigger "Traveller" alliance this time.

	Imperium is a big PBeM it has 53 human players and 80 neutral
	(NPCs) starting within a sector (30x30 hex fields). Unlike
	traveller the sector is wraped, so when you leave it corewards
	you'll exit at the rimward side.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 04:26 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

Moin Joe Pettit,

> I'd be perfectly happy to accept the need for crew during jump if somebody can
> provide a  canonical reference to crews actually doing something while jumping.
> >From  what I've read on the list, once you're in jump, you're there for the duration
> and nothing can stop that (short of blowing yourself up).
> 
> >         Our group prefers that priest recalculates jump and other stuff
> >         the computer hands out. The priest is 587AB9, and is using a book
> >         and an abacus. An other ship has a dolphin as a captain, but most
> >         ships rely on a more or less insane computer. Imho TNE offers the
> >         best reason, why there are so many people on board. Automatisation
> >         levels of WWII U-Boats or even worse.
> 
> I'm not even proposing that the computer calculate the course, just that it executes
> the course.

	The complete thing is :

	- The infected TL:D computer calculates jump
	- The Priest is checking the calculation and programs a TL:6
	  mod1/bis analog computer (just a more complex timer with the
	  size of a refrigerator) for the jump.
	- While most of the crew now has a kickback, the engineer has a
	  lot of work. 1/3 of the JD is HPG, HPG is mechanic and not
	  intended running 7*24 hours at full rate of fire. Of course
	  the HPG is much bigger than necessary from TL:A+, even if HPGs
	  get smaller with each techlevel, a chief will prefer to have
	  more backup HPG, so the size of the drive does'nt decrease.
	- The priest is just needed for prayer at the end of the week,
	  and as his prayer is listened by god (me ;-) the ship exists
	  jump space - that the prayer also includes massive calculation
	  for the best jump exit point should be mentioned ;-)

	Well why does a ship needs humans on board is of course the main
	question. But even this has a simple solution. The Rurevayn pocket
	va^h^hempire constrains ships to carry a human transponder. So many
	ships are either fully manualy controlled (with a lof of humans) or
	carry at least 3 humans. One for the body swap, one for the own ship
	and one as a backup. The work of the human transponder is mainly
	to chat with a human transponder on an other ship to identify the
	other as human. If this is done, transponders are doing body swap,
	means that each ship sends one human to check if anything is allright
	on the other ship. When the transponder gives his/her ok (that the
	other ship realy has humans on board, and that they are looking
	ok), a ship is allowed to visit a starport or to exchange trade
	items. Most systems in Rurevayn and surround have planetary
	advanced defenses, and hunting down of ships without human
	transponders saves free trade in the area. The most common term
	for human transponder is "communication officer" as the transponder
	has to relay every communication between a ships computer and other
	computers to avoid reinfection by a puppetier.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:11:22 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats

David P. Summers wrote:

> Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:54:36 -0500, Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>
> >> >Merchants
> >> >need to be on board to watch cargo.
> >
> >> Why?
> >
> >Because they're greedy bastards :-)
>
> Well, granted.  But if there is nobody onboard, who is going to steal it?

The Giant Turtles (tm) of course :-)

Seriously though, the cargo that needs to be watched is the volatile and
perishable goods like livestock.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:18:49 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Star distribution & Galactic

>Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:43:34 -0600
>From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
>Subject: Star distribution

>I was wondering what everone used for star distribution chances.

>I have been using the standard rules from Book 6:Scouts and I find WAY too
>many stars on my maps.  What percents do you all use for random sectors.

Okay, I'm assuming your working on the standard 1 in 2 chance rule. Try going
down to 1 in 3 for standard, 1 in 6 for sparse and 1 in 12 for rift. I think
you'll find your sectors better with those odds.

>Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:28:04 -0600
>From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
>Subject: Galactic

>I am unable to connect to the links that have been given for galactic.  Can
>sombody Email it to me?

My last URL for Jim's site was <http://members.aol.com/jimvassila> and
just follow the link to the programs section (lots of other goodies
there too).

If that fails, email me and I'll send you the program myself (assuming Jim
has no objections).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"Avec vous votra limpet mine?"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #301
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 23 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 302



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: X-boats (fwd)
Re: Military protocol question...
Re: X-boats (fwd)
Re: Hard Times
Re: Military protocol question...
Re: Environmental domes
Starship Automation
Re: X-boats (fwd)
Re: Classic Traveller Career Question
Re: X-boats (fwd)
Re: X-boats (fwd)
Re: Stuff
Re: Star distribution & Galactic
Clarke's Laws
Re: X-boats (fwd)
"For The Greater Good"...Review
Gaming stuff / sales
Re: Classic Traveller Career Question
Re: Star distribution & Galactic
Why ships need crews
GURPS TNS
Re: Invasion: Junidy!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 13:11:17
From: 2drapers <2drapers@infowest.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

Locomotives carry a crew for many of the same reasons X-boats and traders
do.  Computers can not handle all of the diverse contingencies.  The human
is a "just in case" safety measure, although many would argue that a CPU
with good sensors would be better.  At least the computer will not inhale.
But electronics fail, which will probably not change in the future, and
everybody feels better about having a person on board.

Why do modern freighters carry crew?  Same reason.

Or, like the railroads, maybe the scouts just have a good union.  Look how
long it took the RRs to get rid of cabooses.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 06:49:30 -0800
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>
Subject: Re: Military protocol question...

On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:29:12 -0600 "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net> writes:
> I was wondering: how is a female
>command officer addressed? Sir, or Ma'am?

The current standard is "Ma'am."

SSgt. Schoonmaker, USMC
aka Schoon

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:28:11 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

> Locomotives carry a crew for many of the same reasons X-boats and traders
> do.

Locomotives make various stops, cross roads, cattle, bridges, sharp turns,
etc.  All of these require changes in course and speed.  None of these exist
in J-space.

> Computers can not handle all of the diverse contingencies.  The human
> is a "just in case" safety measure, although many would argue that a CPU
> with good sensors would be better.  At least the computer will not inhale.
> But electronics fail, which will probably not change in the future, and
> everybody feels better about having a person on board.

Starships have THREE computers for just such an emergency. Occam would surmise
that such an occurrence would not be coincidence. There is one person that
doesn't feel better about people on board, whoever's paying the lifesupport
bill.

>
>
> Why do modern freighters carry crew?  Same reason.
>
> Or, like the railroads, maybe the scouts just have a good union.  Look how
> long it took the RRs to get rid of cabooses.

  I'm talking about a very specialized use here.  Planet to planet would
definitely need crew (or at least crew would be less expensive than the
automation required). But I'm talking about throwing a small package through a
hole with somebody on the other side to catch it.

Merchants could do something like that but they'd have to offload freight onto
the jump torp and then reload it on the other side.  Not very  efficient.
Xboats already have the system in place.

It comes down to this:
If a person is needed on board during a jump, he is assumed to be doing
something that effects the jump.  If he can effect the jump, he can shorten
the week or lengthen it by making dramatic changes in the jump.  If he's there
for maintenance, I don't think its advisable to actually "Work" on an active
jump drive.  Maintenance can be done in cycles by the tenders (if the torps
are cargo container sized, you can work on them in the cargo bay).

From what I understand, sensors don't work outside the jump bubble/grid.  If
that's so, then you're flying blind.  If you're flying blind, a pilot is
unneccesary, in fact it becomes a liability and most likely an immediate
misjump.  Its like in Red October with the stop watch and the super accurate
map.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:02:00 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Hard Times

At 03:05 PM 3/21/98 -0800, you wrote:

>Hard Times is a supplement for the post-Rebellion, pre-Virus Imperium
>(1122-1128).  Well, not completely post-Rebellion, but well after every
>sane person in the galaxy was sick of it and most of the resources used to
>fight it were gone.  It gives campaign background material, economic UWP
>effects, various adventures, and primitive spacecraft design rules (the
>first for MT).  Each chapter details a different aspect of the Hard Times
>(megacorps, finance, the Black War, raiding, doomed worlds, etc.) and
>includes one adventure pertaining to the chapter material.

One of the nice things was that Hard Times allowed a more dynamic universe
than we'd seen before.  Used to be that UWPs were unchanging, and Fiore
would be the same no matter how any times you ravaged it.  Now, Entire
worlds could be found deserted as the enviromental controls failed, or when
a Black War fleet nuked the type C Starport as a strtegic asset, leaving
the locals to starve.

>It's a really depressing book, but the primitive ships are neat.  The
>pictures inside the front cover says it all (some poor political tagger
>got his hand almost completely shot off by a trooper). 

My favorite was the man slumped over by the partially open hanger door, his
head cradled in his arms.  Through the door you could see a Free Trader
(one of the example ships from SSOM, IIRC.)  I often wondered what his
story was.. is he a resident of a Doomed World who just found out there is
no more space on the ship, the last one leaving?  Did he manage to get his
family aboard, but not himself?  Or is the ship's owner, finding out that
there are no more repair facilities and his days as a ship's captain are
ended, just after selling his beloved vessel for its spares parts and scrap?

Very powerful image, that one was.
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:08:42 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Military protocol question...

At 01:38 AM 3/18/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:29:12 -0600 "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net> writes:
>> I was wondering: how is a female
>>command officer addressed? Sir, or Ma'am?
>>
>>
>How 'bout 'Captain' ?

If the officer in question is the commander of a ship, Captain is correct.
However, in most English-speaking armies, addressing a superior officer by
rank is something of an insult.  If the officer you need to address is in a
group, you can say something like "Excuse me, Major Dawson? Sir, you're
needed at the TOC."  Also, to get an officer's attention over a distance,
you can use his/her rank and name to get attention.

One oddity of the US Army is the term L.T.  Lieutenants us LT as the
abbreviation for their rank, and soldiers have adopted LT (both letters
prounounced) to refer to their own platoon leader.  With a good LT, you
could use it in direct conversation in informal situations.  1LT Foster, a
platoon leader of mine, didn't mind being called LT by anyone in the field,
for example.
- --

+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
|    "But think of Korea, of Guadalcanal, of  |
| Belleau Wood, of Viet Nam.  The H-bomb did  |
| not abolish the infantryman; it made him    |
| essential... and he has the toughest job of |
| all and should be honored."                 |
|                       - Robert Heinlein     |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:38:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Environmental domes

> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:59:33 +0100 (MET)
> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> 
> >>What would make people settle a world where they can't breathe freely
> >Like Los Angeles? :-)
> 
> You mean Los Angeles had smog back when the first settlers arrived there?

Yes, as a matter of fact.  The Native American (Gabrieleno) name for the
LA Basin translated as "The Plain of Smoke."  We have a near-permanent
inversion layer, so smoke from any source -- brushfires, campfires, or
five million cars -- tends to stay close to the ground and near its
source.  The Spaniards also commented on this when they first came through
the area.  (They also experienced a small earthquake their first night
beside the Los Angeles River.  Welcome to LA!)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:31:13 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Starship Automation

> Joe Pettit said:
>   I'm talking about a very specialized use here.  Planet to planet would
> definitely need crew (or at least crew would be less expensive than the
> automation required). But I'm talking about throwing a small package
through a
> hole with somebody on the other side to catch it.

In a TL13+ society, would the automation required be more expensive than a
crew, especially in the long run?  I was watching a show a while back that
was explaining the differences in European and American passenger aircraft.
 American aircraft use less automation because the companies don't really
trust "autopilot".  European aircraft use much more automation (the pilot
is there with an extremely limited role), and more or less fly themselves
most of the time.

Basically, if we can fly an airplane in all but emergency situations with
automation, I don't see why 3+ TLs down the line, the process of flying a
ship in space can't be automated entirely.

Traveller came out in the late 70s, and seemed to have been strongest up
through about 82 or 83.  At this time, science-fiction books and movies, in
most cases, didn't take computers and automation into account.  Traveller
is a child of that.  That is the truth that I'll tell my players if they
ever ask...  In this case there's no real need to handwave.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 16:18:38
From: 2drapers <2drapers@infowest.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

At 10:28 AM 3/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Locomotives make various stops, cross roads, cattle, bridges, sharp turns,
>etc.  All of these require changes in course and speed.  None of these exist
>in J-space.

Trains do not stops for anything where I live, except other trains.  The
bridges, sharp turns, etc. could be handled better by a computer.  By the
time the engineer sees a problem, it is already too late to do anything
about it.

>Starships have THREE computers for just such an emergency.

But the computers will not be as flexible dealing with problems until TL17.

>It comes down to this:
>If a person is needed on board during a jump, he is assumed to be doing
>something that effects the jump.

Maybe there is nothing the pilot *has* to do.  He is just a seldom-used but
flexible backup system in case something goes terribly wrong.  And as long
as you are going to have someone on board for just such a contingecy, you
may as well dumb down the automation so that he has something to do.

Your point is a very good one.  Maybe at TL13 there was a one-percent
chance that something would go wrong that would require human intervention.
 Say that dropped to 0.1% at TL14 and 0.01% at TL15 as systems improved,
and the change to automated ships never occurred because of sheer intertia
(and that scouts union!).

Many scouts would fear the downsizing associated with automation.  An
internal fight could be going on in the scout service over this issue, with
the manned ship proponents seeking to sabotage the flight testing of the
unmanned xboats.  Either side might be looking for a band of adventurers.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:20:10 -0500
From: Madeleine Oldham <madalien@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller Career Question

Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> 
> In article <199803192228.QAA01834@mail.stlnet.com>,
> "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com> wrote:
> >I've written a Classic Traveller character generator. I've already included
> >all the careers in products I have - the 6 basic ones, the 12 from Citizens
> >of the Imperium, one from Dragon Magazine, the ones from the Darrian
> >Modules, the Dryone Castes, and a few of my own creation.
> >
> >My question is: What other CT products have normal careers in them? (ie,
> >not the extended careers like in Books 4-7 which I don't like). I'd guess
> >the alien modules, as the Darrian one has some. But do any of the others? I
> >know Twilight's Peak has Dryone rules, but do any of the adventures have
> >something like that?
> 
> There's the Imperial Secret Sevice in a White Dwarf magazine
> And the Bounty Hunter.
> --
> Frankie
> 
> Frank G. Pitt | When in doubt, wash | fun:   frankie@mundens.gen.nz
> Wellington    |   (Orlando)         |        frankie@paradise.net.nz
> New Zealand   |                     | profit: fpitt@nz1.ibm.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:37:55 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

> Your point is a very good one.  Maybe at TL13 there was a one-percent
> chance that something would go wrong that would require human intervention.
>  Say that dropped to 0.1% at TL14 and 0.01% at TL15 as systems improved,
> and the change to automated ships never occurred because of sheer intertia
> (and that scouts union!).
>
> Many scouts would fear the downsizing associated with automation.  An
> internal fight could be going on in the scout service over this issue, with
> the manned ship proponents seeking to sabotage the flight testing of the
> unmanned xboats.  Either side might be looking for a band of adventurers.

  This is by far the greatest explanation for the manned X-boat system I've seen
so far.  My merchant marine uncle mentioned the same thing.  It isn't so much
that it CAN'T be done, just that it WON'T be done.  After the Virus episode,
nobody would trust a computer only thing.  Before  that, unions could very well
be the source of the problems.  Pilots had a good thing going... plug in a few
coordinates and sit back for a week. They aren't going to give that up easy.

The message torpedo thing would actually make pilots WORK for their living.  Jump
pilots would have to program 2 to 3 jumps per day. Instead of 14-21 pilots, you'd
have one (well 3 assuming proper rotation).  Their glamorous jobs would be
reduced to shipping clerks and shuttle jockeys. But here's the catch, if it is
THAT cost effective, operations managers might just say "Screw the union!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:38:06 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

> The message torpedo thing would actually make pilots WORK for their living.  Jump
> pilots would have to program 2 to 3 jumps per day. Instead of 14-21 pilots, you'd
> have one (well 3 assuming proper rotation).  Their glamorous jobs would be
> reduced to shipping clerks and shuttle jockeys. But here's the catch, if it is
> THAT cost effective, operations managers might just say "Screw the union!"
> 
> 

To answer the "CATCH", maybe some areas did indeed say "screw the
union".  To be more realistic, I would think that some X-Boat networks
were run the first way, and some the second where people who's only goal
is profit, are in control (or in very influential positions).  Just like
in the real world, you don't have consistency accross the board, you'll
have different procedures ran by different groups.

Famous Scene for the day :

		"Hey, you down there, what the HELL do you want?"

		I jumped slightly, then turned to locate the speaker. 
		He was standing at one of the small tower windows of 
		the castle.  He was too far away from me to see his
		features and how he might be dressed, or to get any 
		idea of his rank.

		I shrugged to myself.  What the hell.  

		"I'm Cal Tremon, sir!"  I responded in my loudest,
		boomiest voice.  "I just disintegrated one of your
		supervisors and I was told in no uncertain terms to
		get my ass up here."

						-Lilith: A Snake in the Grass, by Jack L. Chalker

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:23:46 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Stuff

GDW GAMES wrote:

> He (and Frank and I) took what he wanted from the reserve room in the
(sad story of brutal mutilations, terrible waste and gratuitous sadism snipped)
> Gawd, I hated that. The worst part was walking through the warehouse in the
> last week or so, listening to my footsteps on the concrete floor echoing off
> the walls of the empty rooms...

This is the stuff that dreams are made off, bad ones that is. Makes one wish one had a
time-machine and go there to pick out the best stuff before you had to practically give
it away (or d.. arrgh, cant even type the word now). That would have been a roleplayers
paradise! :-(

But the story of the Demise of GDW is a sad one anyhow, this just adds to the sadness! 

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 20:40:39 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Star distribution & Galactic

On 03/23/98 at 12:18 AM,  Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:

>>I was wondering what everone used for star distribution chances.

>>I have been using the standard rules from Book 6:Scouts and I find WAY too
>>many stars on my maps.  What percents do you all use for random sectors.

>Okay, I'm assuming your working on the standard 1 in 2 chance rule. Try
>going down to 1 in 3 for standard, 1 in 6 for sparse and 1 in 12 for rift.

This is what I use...

Dense     1 in 2    (about 40/subsector)

Standard  1 in 3    (about 27/subsector)

Sparce    1 in 6    (about 13/subsector)

Rift      1 in 10   (about 8/subsector)

Empty     1 in 20   (about 4/subsector)

I don't really create *random* sectors. When I'm creating a sector, I plan
out how I want it to be: where are the mains, the rifts, dense and empty
areas. Then I roll up those sections (usually not corresponding to
subsector boundries) using the ratios I listed above.  After I finish, I
look at the results and custom-tailor things, moving, adding and/or
deleting stars to fit the effects I'm looking for. The random rolls
sometimes give me interesting effects I didn't plan on, and I try not to
exceed the number of stars I originally generated in a
subsector...semi-random, I guess.

>>I am unable to connect to the links that have been given for galactic.  Can
>>sombody Email it to me?

>My last URL for Jim's site was <http://members.aol.com/jimvassila> and
>just follow the link to the programs section (lots of other goodies there
>too).

Hey! That's a new one for me. Has JimV moved from the  www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv 
site?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:07:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Clarke's Laws

> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:17:15 -0800
> From: dberry@hooked.net
> 
> >> > Clarke's Law.  By definition, a TL 35 piece of equipment will seem to be
> >> > magic to even a sophisticated TL 15 Imperial scientist.
> >
> >That's not *Clarke's Law*, this was:
> >If a young, unknown scientist say something does work, he will be right.
> >If an elder, known scientist says something doesn't work, he will be false.
> 
> Umm, Arthur C. Clarke's Law:  Any sufficiently advanced technology is
> indistinguishable from magic.

Like all great thinkers, Clarke posited three laws.  I can't recall their
numeration offhand, but they are:

* Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
* When a distinguished but elderly scientist says something is possible,
  he's almost certainly right.  When he says something is imposible, he's
  quite likely wrong.
* The only way to determine the limits of the possible is to go beyond
  them into the impossible.

The first of these is most famous, so is often refered to as "Clarke's
Law." 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 05:01 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

Moin Joe Pettit,

>   This is by far the greatest explanation for the manned X-boat system I've seen
> so far.  My merchant marine uncle mentioned the same thing.  It isn't so much
> that it CAN'T be done, just that it WON'T be done.  After the Virus episode,
> nobody would trust a computer only thing.  Before  that, unions could very well
> be the source of the problems.  Pilots had a good thing going... plug in a few
> coordinates and sit back for a week. They aren't going to give that up easy.

	Unions are not a problem, but to counter imperialism. Think about
	a 27999 paper freighter, designed for sweden->england. The ship
	intended had a crew of 5, because of union they now have 9 on board.
	This ship looks like a ghost ship compared to a standard 999 rock'n'
	roller tramp freighter, which has the same crew size. You want at
	least one human for that case of the unusual, and you certainly
	want more if the ship got bigger. Compare a traveller ship to a
	WWII U boat. Lets say the Aluette a XXIII Kuestentauchboot. With
	a size of 280 qm it had a crew of 12 in 4 bunks. Even officers
	did'nt had a stateroom. The crew accomodation shows, that either
	by vilani tradion, or by imperial standards, even a warship is
	a luxus liner.

> The message torpedo thing would actually make pilots WORK for their living.  Jump
> pilots would have to program 2 to 3 jumps per day. Instead of 14-21 pilots, you'd
> have one (well 3 assuming proper rotation).  Their glamorous jobs would be
> reduced to shipping clerks and shuttle jockeys. But here's the catch, if it is
> THAT cost effective, operations managers might just say "Screw the union!"

	1/36 that you need a human on board, so humans will be worth for
	1/36 of the ship price for jump - I want some on board just for
	case, they are much cheaper than insurance !

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:59:34 -0600
From: "John D. Muncy" <jmuncy@siscom.net>
Subject: "For The Greater Good"...Review

I just got through reading Martin Dougherty's book "For The Greater Good".
It's a good read, that is entertaining with the level of tension that
exists throughout the story. I found the character twists to be intriguing and,
in one particular personality, a real surprise. In addition to the
"twists", there were several characters that especially caught my
attention, such as Sgt. Calmille, and Commodore Gerray.

I have never studied Napoleonic warfare, in great detail, however, I found
Martin's descriptions and explanations interesting and riveting, as the
battles took place. Another point of interest was the sword play. Martin
did a fine job of "painting" a clear picture of what was happening. A good
visualization tool.

I also felt that the mixture of "magic" (Thaumaturgy) and technology was
well done, in terms of the coalition of the two "sciences". The Thaumaturgy
was given as much legitimacy as the technology, and in some ways resembled
the psionics of Traveller.

Overall, I enjoyed the book, and I would recommend the story to all
enthusiasts of Sci-fantasy. I only hope that Martin has plans to continue
the story line, as it was left open for a sequel using all or some of the
main characters. Nice work, Martin, I hope to see more of your writing.

Best Regards,
John

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:48:17 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Gaming stuff / sales

>There was a guy in Champaign Illinois that I sold a lot of my stash to when I
>moved to Texas...forget his name but he sells on line. He's probably been
>advertising a lot of Traveller stuff lately. 

  Quincy Koziolsky of Titan Games Online (www.titan-games.com)?
There was much excitement and gnashing of teeth over on 2300 AD
when I forwarded the update list including all the signed boxed
sets of 2300 that you sold him.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 01:46:07 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller Career Question

> > There's the Imperial Secret Sevice in a White Dwarf magazine
> > And the Bounty Hunter.

	Wouldn't this fall under a carreer in COTI?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 01:50:31 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Star distribution & Galactic

> I don't really create *random* sectors. When I'm creating a sector, I plan
> out how I want it to be: where are the mains, the rifts, dense and empty
> areas. Then I roll up those sections (usually not corresponding to
> subsector boundries) using the ratios I listed above. 

	Actualy this is exactly what the program I am writing does.  I am allowing
the user to "paint" stellar densities and loyalties over the sector, and
then generate the systems based on the info provided.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 10:27:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Why ships need crews

On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:11:22 jpettit@ix.netcom.com Wrote...
>>>>>Merchants
>>>>>need to be on board to watch cargo.
>>>>Why?
>>>Because they're greedy bastards :-)
>>Well, granted.  But if there is nobody onboard, who is going to steal it?
>The Giant Turtles (tm) of course :-)
>Seriously though, the cargo that needs to be watched is the volatile and
>perishable goods like livestock.
    Folks you're missing the point.
    Ships need crews because even in the Imperium, perhaps Especially in the
Imperium, they don't trust robots or computers all that much.  The exact
specifics of the treaty/declaraion/agrement slip my mind but robots don't have
rights in the Imperium.  Heck, getting too high a percentage of your body
replaced with cybernetic parts can get you declaired a non-citizen AND and
non-sentient being.  The fellow who was complaining that the Robots book broke
the Traveller background missed the point as well.  Sure Robots can do all
these neat things but they're not allowed to BY LAW AND CUSTOM!

    These are much more powerful forces than people realize.  There are other
reasons too, things like insurance.  Piracy, imagine an all automated freighter
and the pirates show up with the override codes. ;) Legal issues as well, you
can't sue a computer for being misprogrammed but you CAN sue a pilot for making
a mistake.  Think of the passengers, do you really think you're going to get
passengers to board a starship with only a couple of robot stewards and total
computer control?

    Think of it this way, would YOU, personally, fly on an aircraft from say
Europe to America with NO ONE ON THE FLIGHT DECK!?!

    Humans are there to handle the situations the computers don't so well at.
They're also there to be blamed when things go wrong.  They're there to handle
the misjumps and all the other things that could go wrong but only rarely do.
Think about it. ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:46:40 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: GURPS TNS

Hey Loren, ya got us all hanging out for another TNS fix. Hows about it
huh?

    Or

Please Mr Wiseman, pretty please......

<Andrew in a very silly mood>

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"Avec vous votra limpet mine?"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:01:59 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Invasion: Junidy!

Volker A. Greimann writes:

>However, consider that Norris had other problems as well. He didnt know
>whether he could trust the Zhos.

Worse. Initially he assumed that the Zhos _would_ attack.

>The Domain was cut off from the rest
>of the Imperium, thereby cutting off all possible reinforcements. 

True. If the Zhos had attacked, the Domain would have gone down the toilet.

>As the Domain still was somewhat of a backwater even in 1116, the
>industrial capacity isnt as high as that of other domains.

We don't know all that much about the other domains, but we do know that
the Domain of Deneb had its full complement of high-tech, high-population
worlds (It was generated with the standard system generation system, after
all  ;-). I know of no reason why the Domain of Deneb should be considered
very much behind the rest. The only difference I know of is that the
average tech level was slightly higher in the core sectors. Certainly the
Domain was not in any way behind their Vargr and Aslan neighbors. Rather
the other way around, actually. 

>Corridor and its fleet are gone, therefore reducing further the number
>of ships available to defend worlds.

The Corridor ships were never available to defend Domain worlds on a day
to day basis.

>He couldnt risk exposing the Zhodani frontier back then so most ships
>would be stationed there. 

Now we're getting down to the nitty-gritty. Yes, as soon as Norris hears
of the Emperor's death, he starts massing ships along the Zho frontier
(Hmm... digression: A question just occurred to me: Does he send off the
orders the moment he hears or does he wait until he hears about it
officially?) He sends off most or all of the regular fleets. Does he
send off the subsector fleets too? Maybe, maybe not. I'd say it would
depend on whether he thought the system defenses could protect the
planets on their own. After all, he's no Lucan. Most likely he'd leave
at least a few colonial squadrons behind. Does he send off the planetary
defense forces? No, if for no other reason than because most of the PDFs
are non-jump capable. And he does one more thing: He starts reactivating
the mothballed reserve ships and speeds up his ship-building program.
Within three months he begins getting reinforcements by the fleet-full.
Literally. The most conservative estimate of the mothballed fleet is
equivalent to 50% of the active forces; a quite realistic estimate puts
it at 8 times the active forces.

>On the other hand there were massive iheiti (?) forces coming from
>Rimward, pushing into Domain territory and large vargr fleets from
>Coreward. Norris simply couldnt afford to defend everything.

What massive _Ihatei_ forces and what large Vargr fleets? The Aslan
_ihatei_ represent a very small fraction of the Aslan strength, and
likewise the Vargr raiders of the Vargr strength. And, more important,
the Aslans and the Vargr are divided into scores and hundreds of
different groups. You don't NEED very much to defend against the Vargr and
the Aslans. Take the Junidy defense forces. If they are locally built and
maintained at TL 9, then they have the equivalent of roughly 100 trillion
credit squadrons (No, that's not a misprint: one _hundred_ trillion credit
squadrons; 70% of the naval taxes of 28 billion people comes to 9.8 trillion
credits which will support 98 trillion credits worth of defenses. True, TL
9 ships are at something like a 100:1 disadvantage against TL 13 ships, but
that's a LOT of TL 9 ships. To match it a Vargr conqueror will have to mass
about 1 trillion credit worth of ships (And to actually conquer someone
without grivious losses you need about 5 or 6 to 1 odds). That's about 400
average sized Vargr corsair bands. Can you imagine 400 Vargr corsair bands
working together? I can't. And if the Junidans import TL 15 SDBs from
Rhylanor instead, they can only afford about one fifth as many, a mere 20
trillion credits worth, but then they would enjoy a 5 to 1 advantage over
TL 13 attackers... (OK, most likely the Junidan system defenses are mostly
locally produced, but they would be stupid not to have bought _some_ high-
tech ships.)

Norris dosen't even need enough strength to defeat the massed Aslan
_ihatei_; all he needs is enough to defeat any single Aslan clan. And
the Vargr are _pirates_ (Sorry, David ;-). They labor under the very
severe handicap that they don't just need to defeat the defenders, they
need to defeat them without losing too much of their own strength and
without destroying too much of the prey. Piracy is a business.

Anyway, now Norris has a heavily defended frontier where nothing happens
and a steady stream of reinforcements being reactivated when some super-
optimistic Vargr and Aslans start to move in on his flanks. How long do
you think it will take before he begins to divert the reinforcements to
the trouble spots? Long before he accepts that the Zhodani is not going
to attack at all (and it's going to take him a looong time to accept
that ;-) he will have sent _some_ forces to deal with the trouble. And
it dosen't take very much to deal with the trouble.

>Later, when the situation normalized, he must have realized that taking
>back the lost territory would cost more than it yielded.

Even granted that it would come to that (which I don't) this is simply
not the Norris I've read about. He'd feel a responsibility to the people
he'd failed to defend in the first place and be all the more ready to
pay the cost of liberating them again.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #302
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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 23 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 303



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Invasion: Junidy!
Re: Why ships need crews
Re: Hard Times
Re: X-boats (fwd)
Re: Solomani Rim Information
Sir, or Ma'am
Re: X-boats
Re: Coffee (was  Re: Emery Dennis' Future)
Re: Uniforms
Re: Unusual Traveller campaigns
Re: Starship Automation
Re: Hard Times (fwd)
Why ships need crews
Oh, allright...
Re: Why ships need crews
Re: Why ships need crews
Re: Uniforms
Virus and Vampire fleets.
Re: X-boats

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:17:11 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Invasion: Junidy!

GypsyComet <GypsyComet@aol.com> writes:
>  This is pulled from the maps and other mentions in MegaTraveller.
>Why refer to it as "occupation" by the Vargr? Because until Norris notices
>and drives them off, the TL12-13 Vargr have it all over the TL3/10 Junidans,
>especially in space.

Assuming that the Junidans have been stupid enough not to spend a small
fraction of their defense funds on imported high-tech SDBs.

>All it takes is the threat of blowing a dome and the
>Vargr own it, at least long enough to loot it (which is what they REALLY
>want to do, after all).

Let us not forget that Junidy does have enough of an atmosphere that a
compressor mask is enough to allow a human to breathe (that is, after all,
the definition of a Type 3 atmosphere). Still, I agree that there might
have been a window for Vargr raids some time in 1117. But raids aren't
the same as conquest, is it?

>  Also, I give no indications of how long the Vargr "owned" Junidy. The
>Vargr could have arrived, looted, and been driven off many times during
>the course of the Rebellion Era. The 1120 maps in MegaTraveller could
>simply be a snapshot of the moment.

Well, IF the Vargr had raided Junidy at all, it would have been over long
before 1120. There's a limit to how long Norris would keep ALL his ships
idling on a border where nothing happened. He may or may not have withdrawn
them all by 1120, but he would have diverted some a long time before that.
Especially considering the massive reinforcements he would have had by then
(some of them paid for by Junidy resources).

Douglas Glatz writes:

>So far as long term occupation goes, I don't imagine that Norris would allow
>the situation to continue for long, however.  The planet would be too
>valuable to the domain.

There's that too. And, as I said in another posting, Norris would also feel
responsible for their defense.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:35:37 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Why ships need crews

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 s.johnson107@genie.geis.com wrote:

>     Ships need crews because even in the Imperium, perhaps Especially in the
> Imperium, they don't trust robots or computers all that much.  The exact
> specifics of the treaty/declaraion/agrement slip my mind but robots don't have
> rights in the Imperium.

The treaty you're referring to are the Shushudam accords, after a 'bot was
used as an assassin.

I suspect that the Imperium found that there was no way to make sure that
Asomov's laws of robotics could ever be truly made perfectly enforceable.
That coupled with political pressure from unions and the like probably put
a real long term damper on the use of autonomous robots in the 3I. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:17:03 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Hard Times

>>It's a really depressing book, but the primitive ships are neat.  The
>>pictures inside the front cover says it all (some poor political tagger
>>got his hand almost completely shot off by a trooper). 
>
>My favorite was the man slumped over by the partially open hanger door,
>his
>head cradled in his arms.  Through the door you could see a Free Trader

Then there's the pregnant woman, with a small child clinging to her,
standing in front of a bank machine reading "network unavailable" (or some
similar depressing message)...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:15:57 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>SOMEONE ELSE> Computers can not handle all of the diverse contingencies.
>The human
>> is a "just in case" safety measure, although many would argue that a CPU
>> with good sensors would be better.  At least the computer will not inhale.
>> But electronics fail, which will probably not change in the future, and
>> everybody feels better about having a person on board.
>
>Starships have THREE computers for just such an emergency. Occam would surmise
>that such an occurrence would not be coincidence. There is one person that
>doesn't feel better about people on board, whoever's paying the lifesupport
>bill.

There is a tendancy to see computers as the solution to all problems, a
global panacea. They aren't necessarily - an example I could cite is one
from a former work. At BNFL we manufactured uranium pellets in a thin
stainless steel can for use in reactors. Because the rod of fuel was a
composite of many smaller pellets it tended to bend. Straightening it to a
sufficient accuracy for use in a reactor required 2 men per shift hand
rolling the rods straight. It looked like ideal territory for automation,
but the two attempts to do so that I know of failed as the 'sophisticated'
computer programs got locked into loops trying to roll the rods straight,
stopping the line. In the end, the technological solutions were abandoned
and manual labour resumed because it worked.

By analogy, IMTU I view jump operation (and the associated calculations) as
requiring a certain intuition from the human personnel that computers only
start to achieve at higher tech levels as the synaptic processors come in.
Until this happens a misjump is more likely with full automation.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:42:22 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Information

Glenn Grant writes:

>>   I'm not sure why the DGP author(s) insisted on melting the ice caps, the
>>only conclusion that I've been able to reach so far is that classic
>>Traveller (IIRC Book 6: Scouts) listed in average temperature of Earth as 15
>>degrees C, which is of course around 3 degrees C too high.  To explain this
>>the DGP author(s) came up with the nonsense about melting ice caps.
>
>Must've seemed a good idea at the time :)

   Well it's a theory anyway...

>>   BTW, I'm curious where you get the 60 meter figure for the sea level
>>rise.  The figure I saw was much less than that.
>
>IIRC this is the figure Kim Stanley Robinson gives in _Blue Mars_.

   <snip>

   And now you know why they call it science-fiction.  My understanding of
the situation in Antarctica is that it would take more than the Ross Ice
Shelf giving way to cause that much damage.

>From other sources I've heard lower figures, too, like 50m or so. Maybe
>some forecasts take into account the increased polar precipitation that
>would lead to increased precipitation, hence a lower figure. As you point
>out, there's a lot of uncertainty.

   As it stands right now, Antarctica is a desert (hey Harold isn't ice
frozen water?)--it stays so cold there that there simply isn't much in the
way of precipitation.  One possible scenario could be that raising the
temperatures causes the ice to melt, thereby increasing humidity levels
(possible because of the higher temperatures), thereby causing a significant
percentage of the freed up water to be turned into new snow which will fall
back in place of the old ice and eventually turn back into new glaciers (a
lot would depend upon how fast the melt off was).

   Net result: we find stuff frozen in the old ice that was better left
there...but no floods in Amsterdam or Miami.

>Whatever. It's definitely not something *I* want to live through!

   We know through geological records that it (melting off of at some
portion of the polar ice caps) has happened at various times in Earth's
history without any interference from Mankind, it is it possible it will
happen again despite whatever measure we might take to prevent it.

   Land owners in certain sections of the Netherlands and Florida take
note--your property values may be decreasing sooner than you think....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:33:42 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Sir, or Ma'am

In my own far-future tales, once Lisa becomes a ship's captain she is
generally addressed as 'Captain', prior to that it's just 'Sir' (Ma'am is
acceptable but archaic).

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:32:15 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats

2drapers <2drapers@infowest.com> wrote: 

>Maybe there is nothing the pilot *has* to do.  He is just a seldom-used but
>flexible backup system in case something goes terribly wrong.  And as long
>as you are going to have someone on board for just such a contingecy, you
>may as well dumb down the automation so that he has something to do.

>Your point is a very good one.  Maybe at TL13 there was a one-percent
>chance that something would go wrong that would require human intervention.
> Say that dropped to 0.1% at TL14 and 0.01% at TL15 as systems improved,
>and the change to automated ships never occurred because of sheer intertia
>(and that scouts union!).

>Many scouts would fear the downsizing associated with automation.  An
>internal fight could be going on in the scout service over this issue, with
>the manned ship proponents seeking to sabotage the flight testing of the
>unmanned xboats.  Either side might be looking for a band of adventurers.

Actually, I think a version of this last point is the best answer of all. 
Sure, computers, and robot brains could do the job just as well w/o a
living pilot.  They could have done so at TL 13 just as well as TL 15,
however, Imperial regulations state that every ship going into jump must
have a qualified pilot on board.  Both the scout service and the various
merchant pilot associations happily support this regulation since their
jobs would be in jeopardy if it was ever changed.  Given the Imperium has
had significant Vilani influence saying that some seemingly senseless
things are done purely because of tradition and legal statues no one has
changed makes perfect sense. 

I don't like inventing technological handwaves simply because Traveller
was first created before folks knew just how impressive computer could be,
such things very much break my suspension-of-disbelief in the game.
However, social cultural or political handwaves can be great fun, and can
have all sorts of other interesting ramifications. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:26:03 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Coffee (was  Re: Emery Dennis' Future)

Peter Newman wrote:

>> I've got an enormous capacitor, too.
>
>Thank you for sharing that with us, I have never heard it refered to as
>a "capacitor" before, maybe I need to get out more.

Actually, getting it out fast enough _is_ a real problem.  Misjumps are
frequent.  Even so, there's just no way in hell I'm going to use those drop
tanks.  And no, thank you: I'd rather not refuel in gas giants.  And
pirates, ye gods! -- nah.  Enough of this.


- --------------------------------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz                      Business Manager
Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
(206) 764 2730                     kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:26:07 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Uniforms

Douglas Berry wrote:

>Headgear is a maroon beret.  Officers on shipboard duty wear a flash with
>the ship's crest.  All others have a black flash with a gold sunburst.
>(Exception: Members of the Marine Guard wear the Emperor's family crest, to
>show their devotion to the man, rather than the office.)

Aw, come on.  Why berets?  I'm so sure!  They're, like, sooooo three
thousand years ago.

The Sayat armed forces don't have uniforms per se, but these days it's
fashionable in the military "nests" to wear bowler hats.  Or maybe fedoras.
I'm not sure yet.  Fawn-colored, or perhaps ecru.  Unfortunately, I
haven't been able to find one to fit the Sayat Barbie(tm) yet.

>Trousers are white, with a maroon strip running down the outside seam of
>each leg.  The trousers are bloused into a pair of calf-high boots, which
>are highly shined.

The Sayat wear high-tech running shoes.  Steel-toed, granted.  <insert
obvious pun on brand names here>

>Good luck, and when you get your costume done, post it to a web page so we
>can see!

Yeah, yeah; same to you, but more of it.


- --------------------------------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz                      Business Manager
Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
(206) 764 2730                     kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:42:20 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Unusual Traveller campaigns

On 20 Mar 98, Lars Adler disseminated foul Ancient propaganda by 
writing:

<snip>
> > And Ancients, of course. ;> But IMC Ancients are capable of magic. 
> 
> Hm. 'Our' Ancients are capable of psionics and high tech. How
> different will magic be from that? I don't think I have to cite
> here.

Well, the problem is, that with level of psionics/magic/whatever my 
Acients have, they never had a drive to develop technology, or, to be 
more precise non-psi technology. And their psi tech is not working 
very well in deep space... 

(That's why they developed other races - as an experiment to create a 
race capable of  another approach - that is, with (almost) no psi 
abilities...)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    ST PETER'S SQUARE - I know he is. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:41:09 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Automation

At 02:31 pm 3/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Joe Pettit said:
>>   I'm talking about a very specialized use here.  Planet to planet would
>> definitely need crew (or at least crew would be less expensive than the
>> automation required). But I'm talking about throwing a small package
>through a
>> hole with somebody on the other side to catch it.
>
>In a TL13+ society, would the automation required be more expensive than a
>crew, especially in the long run?  I was watching a show a while back that
>was explaining the differences in European and American passenger aircraft.
> American aircraft use less automation because the companies don't really
>trust "autopilot".  European aircraft use much more automation (the pilot
>is there with an extremely limited role), and more or less fly themselves
>most of the time.


	Speaking professionally, I feel much more comfortable with the
American concept. The autopilot software is only as good as the team
writing it, and they CANNOT predict all possible situations or
problems which may crop up. In my business we call that a Class III
anomaly. We have onboard software designed to respond to problems we
can anticipate and design for. Class III requires human intervention.

	Perfect example of an autopilot that performed exactly as designed
(reliable) but caused serious injury and property damage (unsafe):
Airbus took one of their prototypes to the Paris airshow. The
autopilot in this particular airplane was designed to detect
impending stall (airspeed too low), and automatically override the
pilot's throttle setting. The pilot was hotdogging and showing off,
flying the airplane extremely close to the ground and going as slow
as possible. After all, he knew the autopilot would automatically
pull him out of a stall.

	Guess what? When the designers created the autopilot, they
discovered the airplane couldn't be landed. After all, a landing is
basically a controlled stall at or near runway level. So they rewrote
the code, bypassing the stall protection at low altitude under the
assumption that it was a landing.

	Can you imagine the results? I've seen the video footage as the
plane slowly descended, under complete control, right into the trees.
The computer system was reliable, but unsafe.

	Another example of the difference between American and European
philosophy, at least several years ago, is that the Europeans put the
machine ahead of the man. If the pilot tries to do something that's
out of the limits programmed it, he won't succeed. If the computer is
told that a Boeing 747 cannot pull more than 2Gs, it won't let the
pilot do it. I've read of an incident on a transatlantic flight where
a 747 wound up in an inverted dive. The pilot completely ignored
Boeing's safety limits, and wound up bending the wings ... but the
plane and all aboard survived and landed safely.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 01:16 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Hard Times (fwd)

Moin Rob Prior,

> Then there's the pregnant woman, with a small child clinging to her,
> standing in front of a bank machine reading "network unavailable" (or some
> similar depressing message)...

	as I've started with MT, the "art" in Hard Times allways was
	my prefered. Unfortuntely Loren wont show this kind of "art"
	in GURPS as would against the "I came out the shower" bullshit.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 01:45 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Why ships need crews

Moin Stephen,

>     Ships need crews because even in the Imperium, perhaps Especially in the
> Imperium, they don't trust robots or computers all that much.

	True - in TNE ships can fly without humans.

> The exact
> specifics of the treaty/declaraion/agrement slip my mind but robots don't have
> rights in the Imperium.  Heck, getting too high a percentage of your body
> replaced with cybernetic parts can get you declaired a non-citizen AND and
> non-sentient being.  The fellow who was complaining that the Robots book broke
> the Traveller background missed the point as well.  Sure Robots can do all
> these neat things but they're not allowed to BY LAW AND CUSTOM!

	Thats not quite right. If we talk about the early 3I, we only have
	the Shushudam accord claiming that ARMED robots are not allowed in
	the 3I. This and the misstrust in robots after the exident, caused
	using robots on board to halt, until TL:13 was archived and new and
	more "intelligent" robots become available. Real fully automated
	ships are only possible at TL:17 and with virus, as this would need
	full intelligent computers.

	Intelligent computers would also raise the discussion about imperial
	citicenship (e.g. Strephon had opinions about changing citicenship
	for TL:16&17 computers build at Platon) and open an other can of
	worms like "robots unions" and "robots liberation movement". For
	this reason robots are limited in the 3I, to avoid this.

>     Think of it this way, would YOU, personally, fly on an aircraft from say
> Europe to America with NO ONE ON THE FLIGHT DECK!?!

	Certainly no - but in european AirBus the pilot only has to press
	the "I'm not sleeping" botton any minute. So we have a similar
	situation. Take a look on discussion I had with using robots for
	my THUDDD design. Nobody disclaimed using a heavy cargo robot,
	but lots of people wondered about the maintenance robot and
	using a police robot (armed!) for 2nd steward.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:58:13 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Oh, allright...

<Andrew in a very silly mood>
<Andrew in a very silly mood>

>Hey Loren, ya got us all hanging out for another TNS fix. Hows about it
>huh?
>
>    Or
>
>Please Mr Wiseman, pretty please......

I'm a little busy right now. Give me a week or so. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:28:23 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Why ships need crews

s.johnson107@genie.geis.com wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:11:22 jpettit@ix.netcom.com Wrote...
> >>>>>Merchants
> >>>>>need to be on board to watch cargo.
> >>>>Why?
> >>>Because they're greedy bastards :-)
> >>Well, granted.  But if there is nobody onboard, who is going to steal it?
> >The Giant Turtles (tm) of course :-)
> >Seriously though, the cargo that needs to be watched is the volatile and
> >perishable goods like livestock.
>     Folks you're missing the point.
>     Ships need crews because even in the Imperium, perhaps Especially in the
> Imperium, they don't trust robots or computers all that much.  The exact
> specifics of the treaty/declaraion/agrement slip my mind but robots don't have
> rights in the Imperium.  Heck, getting too high a percentage of your body
> replaced with cybernetic parts can get you declaired a non-citizen AND and
> non-sentient being.  The fellow who was complaining that the Robots book broke
> the Traveller background missed the point as well.  Sure Robots can do all
> these neat things but they're not allowed to BY LAW AND CUSTOM!
> 
>     These are much more powerful forces than people realize.  There are other
> reasons too, things like insurance.  Piracy, imagine an all automated freighter
> and the pirates show up with the override codes. ;) Legal issues as well, you
> can't sue a computer for being misprogrammed but you CAN sue a pilot for making
> a mistake.  Think of the passengers, do you really think you're going to get
> passengers to board a starship with only a couple of robot stewards and total
> computer control?
> 
>     Think of it this way, would YOU, personally, fly on an aircraft from say
> Europe to America with NO ONE ON THE FLIGHT DECK!?!
> 
>     Humans are there to handle the situations the computers don't so well at.
> They're also there to be blamed when things go wrong.  They're there to handle
> the misjumps and all the other things that could go wrong but only rarely do.
> Think about it. ;)
> 
> Stephen

It seems to me that, if we didn't have crews abpoard then, there
wouldn't be any(body(ies)) to roleplay the situation (oops, the plot /
game ) at the other end of the flight.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:28:23 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Why ships need crews

s.johnson107@genie.geis.com wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:11:22 jpettit@ix.netcom.com Wrote...
> >>>>>Merchants
> >>>>>need to be on board to watch cargo.
> >>>>Why?
> >>>Because they're greedy bastards :-)
> >>Well, granted.  But if there is nobody onboard, who is going to steal it?
> >The Giant Turtles (tm) of course :-)
> >Seriously though, the cargo that needs to be watched is the volatile and
> >perishable goods like livestock.
>     Folks you're missing the point.
>     Ships need crews because even in the Imperium, perhaps Especially in the
> Imperium, they don't trust robots or computers all that much.  The exact
> specifics of the treaty/declaraion/agrement slip my mind but robots don't have
> rights in the Imperium.  Heck, getting too high a percentage of your body
> replaced with cybernetic parts can get you declaired a non-citizen AND and
> non-sentient being.  The fellow who was complaining that the Robots book broke
> the Traveller background missed the point as well.  Sure Robots can do all
> these neat things but they're not allowed to BY LAW AND CUSTOM!
> 
>     These are much more powerful forces than people realize.  There are other
> reasons too, things like insurance.  Piracy, imagine an all automated freighter
> and the pirates show up with the override codes. ;) Legal issues as well, you
> can't sue a computer for being misprogrammed but you CAN sue a pilot for making
> a mistake.  Think of the passengers, do you really think you're going to get
> passengers to board a starship with only a couple of robot stewards and total
> computer control?
> 
>     Think of it this way, would YOU, personally, fly on an aircraft from say
> Europe to America with NO ONE ON THE FLIGHT DECK!?!
> 
>     Humans are there to handle the situations the computers don't so well at.
> They're also there to be blamed when things go wrong.  They're there to handle
> the misjumps and all the other things that could go wrong but only rarely do.
> Think about it. ;)
> 
> Stephen

It seems to me that, if we didn't have crews abpoard then, there
wouldn't be any(body(ies)) to roleplay the situation (oops, the plot /
game ) at the other end of the flight.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:49:28 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Uniforms

Can someone please repost the original message to this.  The one by Mr
Berry, not me.  I seem to have missed it.

- ----------
> From: Kenji Schwarz <kenji@accessone.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Uniforms
> Date: Monday, March 23, 1998 5:26 PM
> 
> Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> >Headgear is a maroon beret.  Officers on shipboard duty wear a flash with
> >the ship's crest.  All others have a black flash with a gold sunburst.
> >(Exception: Members of the Marine Guard wear the Emperor's family crest, to
> >show their devotion to the man, rather than the office.)
> 
> Aw, come on.  Why berets?  I'm so sure!  They're, like, sooooo three
> thousand years ago.
> 
> The Sayat armed forces don't have uniforms per se, but these days it's
> fashionable in the military "nests" to wear bowler hats.  Or maybe fedoras.
> I'm not sure yet.  Fawn-colored, or perhaps ecru.  Unfortunately, I
> haven't been able to find one to fit the Sayat Barbie(tm) yet.
> 
> >Trousers are white, with a maroon strip running down the outside seam of
> >each leg.  The trousers are bloused into a pair of calf-high boots, which
> >are highly shined.
> 
> The Sayat wear high-tech running shoes.  Steel-toed, granted.  <insert
> obvious pun on brand names here>
> 
> >Good luck, and when you get your costume done, post it to a web page so we
> >can see!
> 
> Yeah, yeah; same to you, but more of it.
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Kenji Schwarz                      Business Manager
> Seattle Institute for Biomedical and Clinical Research
> (206) 764 2730                     kenji@accessone.com
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:53:20 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Virus and Vampire fleets.

Can anyone explain to me the Virus and the Vampire fleets?  I never actualy
played TNE, so I am a little lost when it comes to such discussions.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:07:34 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats

John R. Snead wrote:

> 2drapers <2drapers@infowest.com> wrote:
>
> >Maybe there is nothing the pilot *has* to do.  He is just a seldom-used but
> >flexible backup system in case something goes terribly wrong.  And as long
> >as you are going to have someone on board for just such a contingecy, you
> >may as well dumb down the automation so that he has something to do.
>
> >Your point is a very good one.  Maybe at TL13 there was a one-percent
> >chance that something would go wrong that would require human intervention.
> > Say that dropped to 0.1% at TL14 and 0.01% at TL15 as systems improved,
> >and the change to automated ships never occurred because of sheer intertia
> >(and that scouts union!).
>
> >Many scouts would fear the downsizing associated with automation.  An
> >internal fight could be going on in the scout service over this issue, with
> >the manned ship proponents seeking to sabotage the flight testing of the
> >unmanned xboats.  Either side might be looking for a band of adventurers.
>
> Actually, I think a version of this last point is the best answer of all.
> Sure, computers, and robot brains could do the job just as well w/o a
> living pilot.  They could have done so at TL 13 just as well as TL 15,
> however, Imperial regulations state that every ship going into jump must
> have a qualified pilot on board.  Both the scout service and the various
> merchant pilot associations happily support this regulation since their
> jobs would be in jeopardy if it was ever changed.  Given the Imperium has
> had significant Vilani influence saying that some seemingly senseless
> things are done purely because of tradition and legal statues no one has
> changed makes perfect sense.
>
> I don't like inventing technological handwaves simply because Traveller
> was first created before folks knew just how impressive computer could be,
> such things very much break my suspension-of-disbelief in the game.
> However, social cultural or political handwaves can be great fun, and can
> have all sorts of other interesting ramifications.

It's very simple...
It isn't that it cannot be done, it just WON'T be done.  While there is nothing
that technologically prevents such devices from operating, there are TONS of
reasons why they won't be used.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #303
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 304



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.
Re: X-boats (fwd)
Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.
Re:  Stellar Distribution
Boeing -- Boeing
Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Boeing -- Boeing -- Gone!
Boeing -- Boeing -- Gone! (part 2)
Re: Military protocol question...
Re: Gravitiational Charge
Re: X-boats
Re: X-boats

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:32:34 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.

talisman wrote:

> Can anyone explain to me the Virus and the Vampire fleets?  I never actualy
> played TNE, so I am a little lost when it comes to such discussions.

  As an ultimate weapon against starships, somebody invented a virus that could
be transmitted to enemy ships which would cause the computer to destroy the
enemy ship. This virus spread and mutated into various strains.  Some of which
do not destroy themselves.  This virus gained proto-sentience and took over
ships.  The virus then contaminate other ships it contacted which joined it.
Eventually, you've got a fleet of ships that are under the control of infected
computers.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:27:45 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

> By analogy, IMTU I view jump operation (and the associated calculations) as
> requiring a certain intuition from the human personnel that computers only
> start to achieve at higher tech levels as the synaptic processors come in.
> Until this happens a misjump is more likely with full automation.
>

Please describe everything a person does regarding a jump, before, during, and
after the jump. My unfamiliarity with the process is obviously biasing me against
your opinion.

My current understanding of the process:
Travel to safe distance from Gravity wells (I understand this part)
Compute jump coordinate (I understand this part, Average Astrogation task)
Prepare jump drive (I'm not sure what this entails)
Engage jump drive (Not sure about this too, Average Ship's Engineer task)
Travel through jumpspace (not at all sure what happens here, 6-8 days)
Emerge from jumpspace (I understand this part, arrive 100 diameters away)

As always, keep in mind that my message torp is a jump ONLY vehicle and does have a
human prepping it before jump and catching it at the other side. The autopilot only
runs things in jumpspace.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:54:40 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.

At 08:53 pm 3/23/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Can anyone explain to me the Virus and the Vampire fleets?  I never
actualy
>played TNE, so I am a little lost when it comes to such discussions.

	A (very) abbreviated explanation:

1. In a Classic Traveller adventure (the name of which escapes me at
this moment) the characters eventually discover sentient silicon
lifeforms--living microchips.

2. The Imperium uses a descendent of these chips in what's intended
to be an impregnable transponder system. Since the chips are actually
aware, they don't just exchange codes with each other, they talk. The
idea is the chips can't fool each other. In order to facilitate this,
the transponders have complete access to the ships' computer systems.

3. Dulinor kills Emperor Strephon and begins the Rebellion (either
that, or Strephon is having an anchovy-and-strulgarn-pizza-induced
nightmare).

4. One of the baddies, the Emperor Lucan (Strephon's son) initiates a
research project. Seems somebody has discovered a variant of the
chips which has learned to prey on other chips, and can actually
cause its prey to be reprogrammed--hence allowing reproduction (the
core principle of life...). Nifty idea, eh? The world's greatest
hacker! *Nothing* can keep it out, because it *is* the computer
itself, and actually learns at computer speeds! Say, let's program it
to be wildly destructive, so we can release it, infect our enemy's
ships, and have them commit suicide. Gee, we're having trouble
getting the controls put in so it doesn't attack our own ships. Sure
hope it doesn't get out yet ...

5. Dulinor's fleet invades the research station, and accidentally
lets Virus loose. The initial strain is highly destructive, and most
ships die before spreading it. Some strains last long enough to
infect other ships, and even learn to spread to other computer
systems. Say, planetary defense grids, fusion plant controllers,
environmental controls ...

6. With much of the known universe returned to the stone ages
courtesy of the loss of all information, power, and other aspects of
modern technology and economy, there are still ships roaming around
under Virus control, looking for further victims. Called Vampires
because, much like the mythical vampire, their victims become like
them, they occasionally band together--hence Vampire Fleets.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:57:31 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re:  Stellar Distribution

>Actualy this is exactly what the program I am writing does.  I am allowing
>the user to "paint" stellar densities and loyalties over the sector, and
>then generate the systems based on the info provided.

My own system does much the same, but unfortunately, can only set stelar
densities and allegiances on a subsector level.  I'd be interested in
seeing how you work it...

Later,

Mick Bailey

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:02:34 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Boeing -- Boeing

> Another example of the difference between American and European
> philosophy, at least several years ago, is that the Europeans put the
> machine ahead of the man. If the pilot tries to do something that's
> out of the limits programmed it, he won't succeed. If the computer is
> told that a Boeing 747 cannot pull more than 2Gs, it won't let the
> pilot do it. 

I have heard it described thus: American aircraft designer's assume that if
the pilot is pulling back on the yoke _real_ hard, he wants to go up _real_
bad, and the control surfaces respond accordingly.

>I've read of an incident on a transatlantic flight where
> a 747 wound up in an inverted dive. The pilot completely ignored
> Boeing's safety limits, and wound up bending the wings ... but the
> plane and all aboard survived and landed safely.

Boeing has a reputation for this sort of stuff, dating back to WWII, when
B-17s were put through some remarkable hoops. I keep running across rumors of
a pilot pulling an Immelman with a B-17, but have never found solid proof. 

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 00:18:16 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Jump Drive, IMTU

On 03/23/98 at 10:27 PM,  Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> said:

>Please describe everything a person does regarding a jump, before, during,
>and after the jump.

Here's a heretic's opinion...IMTU...

1.  The flight to the jump point.

    a.  The Astrogator uses the "Jump Bible" to determine the
        approximate volume of space from which the ship can jump to the
        desired destination, plots a course to that area and gives it to
        the Pilot.
        
    b.  The Pilot executes the course, correcting for an obstructions
        along the way.
        
    c.  While enroute the Astrogator runs calculations through the
        computer predetermining the "jump plot" and drive configurations
        for Engineering that will be needed.  After this is calculated
        he gives it to the Engineer, who begins to make preparations.
        
2.  Preparing for Jump.

    a.  The ship arrives in the jump point, a volume of space generally
        several light seconds in diameter.

    b.  The Engineer finishes configuring the drive and hull grid and
        charging capacitors with the required energy to initiate jump.

    c.  When everything is ready the Engineer sends the signal to the
        Captain, who has the Pilot align the ship parallel to the
        estimated line of jump, based on the Astrogator's plot.
        
3.  Imitating Jump.
    
    a.  The Captain orders "Grid up!"  The Engineer runs power through
        the lanthanum grid located, for protection, inside the hull of
        the ship.

    b.  As the grid expands through the hull out about 3 meters, a
        pattern of lines, shifting in color, appear on the hull.  This
        pattern of lines is caused from interaction between the hull
        material and the expanding field, and varies based on the type
        of material in the hull and the grid patterns used by different
        species, races and designs.  It takes about a minute for the
        field to expand to its maximum limit and stabilize.

    c.  When the Sensor Operator reports the field has stabilized the
        Captain orders "Prepare for jump."  Lights aboard the ship are
        dimmed signaling to crew and passengers transition to jump is
        eminent.  (Many people suffer from "jump sickness" during the
        first few hours in jump space with the worst symptoms occurring
        at the instant the ship "jumps."  The symptoms of jump sickness
        are dizziness, nausea, disorientation, headaches.  Severe cases
        can be disabilitating for up to a day, and some species have
        been known to die from the effects.  Giving the signal alerts
        people to prepare for the disorientation, and for serious cases
        to take medications of one kind or another.)

    d.  The Astrogator brings the forward Grav Sensor array fulling
        online displaying it within the Astrogation Tank.  At this point
        the tank is filled mostly with static.  He then reports, "Ready
        for jump."

    e.  The Captain orders, "Initiate Flow!"  The Pilot (or other bridge
        crewman) enters the command to flush the "jump fuel" through the
        injection ports located at the bow of the ship.  The hydrogen
        floods rapidly out ahead of the ship in a dome like shape.
        Hydrogen is used because it is the least complex form of matter
        and computational difficulties increase exponentially as the
        injection matter increases in complexity.  The best injection
        matter is absolutely pure H2.
        
    f.  The Sensor Operator waits for the critical density to be sensed
        at the bow of the ship and then switches the jump drive on,
        calling "Jump is hot!"  Capacitors, or more usually the power
        plant, sends power through the through the drive generating a
        gravitational pulse that rips open a *small* rift in space (a
        wormhole) that will last for 2 to 3 minutes.  To the outside
        world the ship disappears from normal space.
        
    g.  At this point the ship is committed to jump.  The wormhole will
        expand around the ship as most of the hydrogen is consumed
        forming a bubble constrained by the jump grid outside of normal
        space.  In roughly a week the ship will reenter normal space as
        the rift in space thins and collapses expelling the ship back
        into normal space. 
        
4.  Jump.

    a.  The Astrogator has roughly two minutes to complete the jump
        sequence.  So, as soon as the wormhole forms the Astrogator
        fires a Grav Sensor pulse from the forward sensor array.  The
        pulse is directly through the wormhole toward the *estimated*
        destination, and is designed to form a lens in the mouth of the
        wormhole.
        
    b.  Inside the Astrogation Tank gravitational sources located along
        the line of the pulse now show up as red dots amid the static.
        
    c.  The Astrogator displays the precalculated "jump plot" derived
        from calculations over the data on the tank as green dots.  He
        then rotates controls matching the actual red dots to the
        calculated green dots.  (As an aside, coordinates in jump space
        don't match those in normal space, and they drift over time.  A
        Jump Bible more than a year old will already be well on the way
        to being out of date, making "plotting" increasingly difficult.)
        
    d.  When the Astrogator has aligned the dots, insuring that his (and
        the computer's) previous calculations are valid he hits the Jump
        button, which causes the jump drive to discharge a second and
        more massive gravitational pulse along the jump line, this
        usually takes stored energy from capacitors.  If the Astrogator
        fails to fire the pulse during the critical period the rift will
        close and the ship will emerge at its current location in a week.
        If he fires the pulse without properly aligning the plot, the
        ship will emerge at some unpredictable point at some
        unpredictable time.
        
    e.  The discharge forms a tunnel from the ship to its destination,
        and the ship is pulled along behind the pulse through the
        wormhole toward its destination.  It moves past the lens
        instantaneously and is totally isolated and blind until the jump
        bubble collapses in about a week.  Theoretically, the ship has
        transferred location instantaneously to its destination, but
        won't emerge for a week.
        
5.  In Jump Space.

    a.  The Jump Drive and sensors can be shut down while in Jump Space.
    
    b.  The Jump Grid must be maintained to protect the ship within its
        bubble of normal space.  Any degrading of the field can lead to
        damage to the ship and/or its crew.  Failure of the field will
        cause the bubble of normalcy to totally collapse destroying the
        ship.
        
    c.  The Engineer monitors the power plant and the lanthanum grid,
        works on maneuver and jump drives, and anything else that needs
        maintenance or repair.
    
    d.  The Astrogator, Sensor Operator, and Pilot perform non bridge
        related duties, do maintenance, and pull "jump watches" on
        the bridge watching dead monitors and waiting for the first
        static to come up on the Astrogation Tank.
        
6.  On Emergence.

    a.  As the jump bubble begins to "thin" static begins to appear on
        the previously completely empty display of the Astrogation Tank.
        The appearance of static indicates that the ship will be
        emerging within a few hours, and by plotting the increase in
        static a good estimate of emergence can be predicted.  The
        prediction is usually good to within a 5 minute window.
        
    b.  Lights are again dimmed when the ship enters the Emergence
        Window, indicating return to normal space is eminent.  Just as
        the entry to jump space causes many people to suffer jump
        sickness, so does exit from jump space.
        
    c.  Bridge stations are manned.  Maneuver drives, sensors, and
        communications equipment is powered and primed.
        
    d.  The ship "breaks out" with a blinding flash of light as highly
        energized photons and more massive particles precede the ship
        into normal space.  This is the remains of any "jump fuel" that
        survived the jump inside the bubble or along the field boundary.
        
    e.  The ship resumes normal space operations.  The Sensor Operator
        and the Astrogator take readings determining the exact location
        of the ship.  The Communications Operator searches for system
        transponder signals.  After ascertaining location and calculating
        a course, the Pilot flies the ship to its in-system destination.
        
        
As I said, this is how it works in my Traveller Universe.  Because the ship
is isolated from sensors before the final ploting is down and because the
precalculated plot has to be adjusted at the moment of jump this isn't
something that can be completely automated.  If you want to automate it
IYTU, more power to you! 
        
        
Eris,
     the Heretic   
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:49:44 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> At 08:53 pm 3/23/98 -0600, you wrote:
> >Can anyone explain to me the Virus and the Vampire fleets?  I never
> actualy
> >played TNE, so I am a little lost when it comes to such discussions.
> 
>         A (very) abbreviated explanation:
> 
> 1. In a Classic Traveller adventure (the name of which escapes me at
> this moment) the characters eventually discover sentient silicon
> lifeforms--living microchips.
>
GK GK GK           (signal GK - adventure 13)
> 
[rest of a pretty good recap snipped]

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:27:24 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 03/23/98 at 10:27 PM,  Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> said:
> 
> >Please describe everything a person does regarding a jump, before, during,
> >and after the jump.
> 
> Here's a heretic's opinion...IMTU...
> 
> 1.  The flight to the jump point.
> 
>     a.  The Astrogator uses the "Jump Bible" to determine the
>         approximate volume of space from which the ship can jump to the
>         desired destination, plots a course to that area and gives it to
>         the Pilot.
> 
>     b.  The Pilot executes the course, correcting for an obstructions
>         along the way.
> 
>     c.  While enroute the Astrogator runs calculations through the
>         computer predetermining the "jump plot" and drive configurations
>         for Engineering that will be needed.  After this is calculated
>         he gives it to the Engineer, who begins to make preparations.
> 
> 2.  Preparing for Jump.
> 
>     a.  The ship arrives in the jump point, a volume of space generally
>         several light seconds in diameter.
> 
>     b.  The Engineer finishes configuring the drive and hull grid and
>         charging capacitors with the required energy to initiate jump.
> 
>     c.  When everything is ready the Engineer sends the signal to the
>         Captain, who has the Pilot align the ship parallel to the
>         estimated line of jump, based on the Astrogator's plot.
> 
> 3.  Imitating Jump.
> 
>     a.  The Captain orders "Grid up!"  The Engineer runs power through
>         the lanthanum grid located, for protection, inside the hull of
>         the ship.
> 
>     b.  As the grid expands through the hull out about 3 meters, a
>         pattern of lines, shifting in color, appear on the hull.  This
>         pattern of lines is caused from interaction between the hull
>         material and the expanding field, and varies based on the type
>         of material in the hull and the grid patterns used by different
>         species, races and designs.  It takes about a minute for the
>         field to expand to its maximum limit and stabilize.
> 
>     c.  When the Sensor Operator reports the field has stabilized the
>         Captain orders "Prepare for jump."  Lights aboard the ship are
>         dimmed signaling to crew and passengers transition to jump is
>         eminent.  (Many people suffer from "jump sickness" during the
>         first few hours in jump space with the worst symptoms occurring
>         at the instant the ship "jumps."  The symptoms of jump sickness
>         are dizziness, nausea, disorientation, headaches.  Severe cases
>         can be disabilitating for up to a day, and some species have
>         been known to die from the effects.  Giving the signal alerts
>         people to prepare for the disorientation, and for serious cases
>         to take medications of one kind or another.)
> 
>     d.  The Astrogator brings the forward Grav Sensor array fulling
>         online displaying it within the Astrogation Tank.  At this point
>         the tank is filled mostly with static.  He then reports, "Ready
>         for jump."
> 
>     e.  The Captain orders, "Initiate Flow!"  The Pilot (or other bridge
>         crewman) enters the command to flush the "jump fuel" through the
>         injection ports located at the bow of the ship.  The hydrogen
>         floods rapidly out ahead of the ship in a dome like shape.
>         Hydrogen is used because it is the least complex form of matter
>         and computational difficulties increase exponentially as the
>         injection matter increases in complexity.  The best injection
>         matter is absolutely pure H2.
> 
>     f.  The Sensor Operator waits for the critical density to be sensed
>         at the bow of the ship and then switches the jump drive on,
>         calling "Jump is hot!"  Capacitors, or more usually the power
>         plant, sends power through the through the drive generating a
>         gravitational pulse that rips open a *small* rift in space (a
>         wormhole) that will last for 2 to 3 minutes.  To the outside
>         world the ship disappears from normal space.
> 
>     g.  At this point the ship is committed to jump.  The wormhole will
>         expand around the ship as most of the hydrogen is consumed
>         forming a bubble constrained by the jump grid outside of normal
>         space.  In roughly a week the ship will reenter normal space as
>         the rift in space thins and collapses expelling the ship back
>         into normal space.
> 
> 4.  Jump.
> 
>     a.  The Astrogator has roughly two minutes to complete the jump
>         sequence.  So, as soon as the wormhole forms the Astrogator
>         fires a Grav Sensor pulse from the forward sensor array.  The
>         pulse is directly through the wormhole toward the *estimated*
>         destination, and is designed to form a lens in the mouth of the
>         wormhole.
> 
>     b.  Inside the Astrogation Tank gravitational sources located along
>         the line of the pulse now show up as red dots amid the static.
> 
>     c.  The Astrogator displays the precalculated "jump plot" derived
>         from calculations over the data on the tank as green dots.  He
>         then rotates controls matching the actual red dots to the
>         calculated green dots.  (As an aside, coordinates in jump space
>         don't match those in normal space, and they drift over time.  A
>         Jump Bible more than a year old will already be well on the way
>         to being out of date, making "plotting" increasingly difficult.)
> 
>     d.  When the Astrogator has aligned the dots, insuring that his (and
>         the computer's) previous calculations are valid he hits the Jump
>         button, which causes the jump drive to discharge a second and
>         more massive gravitational pulse along the jump line, this
>         usually takes stored energy from capacitors.  If the Astrogator
>         fails to fire the pulse during the critical period the rift will
>         close and the ship will emerge at its current location in a week.
>         If he fires the pulse without properly aligning the plot, the
>         ship will emerge at some unpredictable point at some
>         unpredictable time.
> 
>     e.  The discharge forms a tunnel from the ship to its destination,
>         and the ship is pulled along behind the pulse through the
>         wormhole toward its destination.  It moves past the lens
>         instantaneously and is totally isolated and blind until the jump
>         bubble collapses in about a week.  Theoretically, the ship has
>         transferred location instantaneously to its destination, but
>         won't emerge for a week.
> 
> 5.  In Jump Space.
> 
>     a.  The Jump Drive and sensors can be shut down while in Jump Space.
> 
>     b.  The Jump Grid must be maintained to protect the ship within its
>         bubble of normal space.  Any degrading of the field can lead to
>         damage to the ship and/or its crew.  Failure of the field will
>         cause the bubble of normalcy to totally collapse destroying the
>         ship.
> 
>     c.  The Engineer monitors the power plant and the lanthanum grid,
>         works on maneuver and jump drives, and anything else that needs
>         maintenance or repair.
> 
>     d.  The Astrogator, Sensor Operator, and Pilot perform non bridge
>         related duties, do maintenance, and pull "jump watches" on
>         the bridge watching dead monitors and waiting for the first
>         static to come up on the Astrogation Tank.
> 
> 6.  On Emergence.
> 
>     a.  As the jump bubble begins to "thin" static begins to appear on
>         the previously completely empty display of the Astrogation Tank.
>         The appearance of static indicates that the ship will be
>         emerging within a few hours, and by plotting the increase in
>         static a good estimate of emergence can be predicted.  The
>         prediction is usually good to within a 5 minute window.
> 
>     b.  Lights are again dimmed when the ship enters the Emergence
>         Window, indicating return to normal space is eminent.  Just as
>         the entry to jump space causes many people to suffer jump
>         sickness, so does exit from jump space.
> 
>     c.  Bridge stations are manned.  Maneuver drives, sensors, and
>         communications equipment is powered and primed.
> 
>     d.  The ship "breaks out" with a blinding flash of light as highly
>         energized photons and more massive particles precede the ship
>         into normal space.  This is the remains of any "jump fuel" that
>         survived the jump inside the bubble or along the field boundary.
> 
>     e.  The ship resumes normal space operations.  The Sensor Operator
>         and the Astrogator take readings determining the exact location
>         of the ship.  The Communications Operator searches for system
>         transponder signals.  After ascertaining location and calculating
>         a course, the Pilot flies the ship to its in-system destination.
> 
> 
> As I said, this is how it works in my Traveller Universe.  Because the ship
> is isolated from sensors before the final ploting is down and because the
> precalculated plot has to be adjusted at the moment of jump this isn't
> something that can be completely automated.  If you want to automate it
> IYTU, more power to you!
> 
> 
> Eris,
>      the Heretic
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
> -----------------------------------------------------------

Sounds good to me (considering I've never given it much thought).

Give this a shot for me and correct any misconceptions. 

Almost every ship has a maneuvre drive generating x number of G's. At
any time (with enough fuel) the ship can accelerate to a maximum of x
G's. Sometimes, because of circumstance, the ship will pull more than
it's rated G's. Any crew member can safely move about at 1G and possibly
2G's, but must be 'tied down' at anything above that or get the stuffing
knocked out of him, and I think I've seen here that 'man' has
successfully withstood 18+/- G's in rocket sleds (don't quote me on
that  cause I don't know). My real question is, what would be the number
of G's pulled in an accelleration that will take you from zero to a
speed that will move you 3.26LY (up to roughly 19.56LY) away in 7+/-
days. Just a thought.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:24:20 +0000
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Boeing -- Boeing -- Gone!

Loren Wiseman wrote:
> > Another example of the difference between American and European
> > philosophy, at least several years ago, is that the Europeans
> > put the machine ahead of the man. If the pilot tries to do
> > something that's out of the limits programmed it, he won't
> > succeed. If the computer is told that a Boeing 747 cannot pull
> > more than 2Gs, it won't let the pilot do it.
>
> I have heard it described thus: American aircraft designer's
> assume that if the pilot is pulling back on the yoke _real_ hard,
> he wants to go up _real_ bad, and the control surfaces respond
> accordingly.

There was a plane crash over Panama, some years ago,  that  could
be relevant here.  The plane was traveling at night and the  crew
were relying on the artifical horizon and  compass  to  fly.  The
pilot noticed that the plane was banked slightly to the right and
adjusted  the  yoke  to  level  it  out.  Nothing  happened.   He
adjusted more.  Still nothing.  He held the  yoke  way  over  ...
then suddenly the plane was  steeply  banked  to  the  left.  The
pilot pulled over hard to the right ... at first  no  effect  ...
then the plane flipped back to  a  steep  right  bank.  This  was
repeated  a  few  more  times  until  the  plane  went  into   an
unrecoverable dive and crashed killing  all  onboard.  The  crash
investigation team found that, although there were  2  artificial
horizon instruments ... 1 was switched off and the  other  had  a
malfunction (it kept sticking).  The point is that the pilot  had
no external references  and  was  flying  purely  on  (defective)
instruments.  He never knew what his aircraft was  really  doing.
It was concluded that switching off the  2nd  artificial  horizon
was a pilot error which resulted in the crash.

Now some might argue that the crash was a result of a  mechanical
defect and that can crash a more automated aircraft, but it shows
that  in  some  situations  the  pilot  is  little  more  than  a
biological automaton simply following what his  instruments  tell
him to do.

I have personaly been in a number of  passenger  aitcraft  during
heavy turbulance and have to  say  I  felt  safest  in  a  highly
automated Airbus ...  ever  move  the  aircraft  made  felt  very
deliberate which is a reassuring feeling.



Regards PLST

"EMU ... 40 weeks to go and counting.
 - Has your software been EMUnised?"
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:40:13 +0000
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Boeing -- Boeing -- Gone! (part 2)

Oops.  Forgot to add:

Didn't the Kinunir class Colonial Cruiser have  an  AI  computer?
And didn't one go nuts, kill the crew, but then  get  trapped  in
the belt system Shionthy/Regina with insufficient fuel to  leave?
That means that, apart from the AI bit, the ship's  computer  had
full access to all the control systems and  the  ship  could  fly
itself ... according to _CT_ cannon.



Regards PLST

"EMU ... 40 weeks to go and counting.
 - Has your software been EMUnised?"
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:15:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Military protocol question...

In mail you write:

> I don't know how accurate the movies are, but we always used to laugh at US
> privates having to call their NCOs 'Sir'. If we did that the laest you'd
> get was "Don't insult me like that again - I work for my pay. Give me 30!
> (press-ups)".

US NCOs react much the same according to every ex-service type I've
ever talked to. You *don't* call NCO's "Sir!"

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 03:37:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gravitiational Charge

In mail you write:

>      The interesting bit was that it implied that particles could have a
> gravitiational "charge". Positive or negative.

Gravitational "charge" is known as "mass".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:24:07 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: X-boats

>I'd be perfectly happy to accept the need for crew during jump if somebody can
>provide a  canonical reference to crews actually doing something while jumping.
>From  what I've read on the list, once you're in jump, you're there for
>the duration
>and nothing can stop that (short of blowing yourself up).

Yes, this is true and even the references about what engineers do seem to
portray their work as ocurring during starport stopovers.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:26:04 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: X-boats

>  Also, as a point of contention:  If you take an engineer who deals with
>the day to day stuff, with a skill of Engineering 1, why can't a program
>worth the equivalent of engineering 1 not handle the task?  The program
>would fail as often as the engineer would.  The only real thing that the
>engineer could do that the computer can't, is *GUESS* at the correct answer
>when all else fails.
>
>           Hal

If a robot can have a Engineer 1 skill and the same other attributes then
I'd say you're right. But some tasks might require say INT and that might
be lacking in all robots but the most expensive ones.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #304
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 305



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Heretics Jump Drives
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: Hard Times
re: Virus and Vampire fleets.
Re: X-boats (fwd)
re:Jump Drive, IMTU
Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
Re: X-boats (fwd)
Re: Gravitiational Charge
Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
This old guitar
Hail The New Era...
Re: Gravitiational Charge
Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures
Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:14:47 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Heretics Jump Drives

OK, I've been on the list now for about 2 weeks, wonderful discussions
everyone.  I've been playing traveller since the original *Little Black
Books* ( boy, do I wish I still had them :(   !!! ).  I've seen MT, and
played it some, TNE, didn't really care for it much, and now T4, a used
copy of which I just got about a month ago.  Nice to see Traveller
returning to its roots.  Anyway, I digress.  Having read the jump space
strings here, I'm putting out for your collective (hmmmm, resistance is
futile, eh?) folding, spindling, and mutilating my version of jump space.
 Yeah, I know, its non-canon, but then again, I'm a masochist, I like
being canon fodder  ;)


In the campaign I'm presently putting together, the jump number of the
drive is indeed the number of parsecs a ship can cover in about a week,
with one key difference.  A ship in jump can continue to cover that
distance per week until it decides to drop out of jump.  So a jump one
tramp freighter can cover six parsecs in six weeks, with only one jump. 
Now, I know that changes the character of the game without something to
limit it, so here is the bad news.  Jump space is not as homogenous as
normal space, in terms of spacial densities, and so distances in jump
actually vary with time.  One major source of research funding is the
search for reliable systems and/or maps to take this into account.  At
any rate, the result is the longer you stay in jump space, the more off
course you tend to get.  Basically a cumulative mis-jump.  This effect
seems to be more time related than distance, so the jump 1 freighter
travelling 6 parsecs has more of a chance of being off course than the
jump 6 cruiser travelling the same path. 


 As for game mechanics, I've expanded navigation to become n-space
navigation and j-space navigation.  I'm not sure yet how I'll fit those
into the character creation, comments are much desired and welcome.  Once
in jump space, a j-space nav check must be made once a week (not
including the first week)  to make sure everything is ok.  Travel along a
well known course, say, the Spinward Main, gives a  positive modifier to
the task roll.  For each week greater than one, a negative modifier is
included.  Computer programs of known jump courses add a single positive
modifier, but are hard to come by, being difficult to make, and will cost
quite a bit.  Getting programs to red zones, and sensitive military sites
is even harder, if not impossible.  So, the jump 1 freighter will make 5
nav checks in six parsecs, while the jump 6 cruiser will make none.  I'd
suggest that the GM make the check rolls, and not tell the navigators. 
If theyre crazy enough to try it, let them find out when they drop out
that theyre 5 parsecs off course.  The effects of failed rolls are
cumulative, with the first failure causing the ship to drop out in the
Oort Cloud of the destination, and each subsequent failure then putting
the ship 1 parsec off in a random direction (yes, even backwards).  So
our poor tramp freighter in jump space, makes no nav check the end of the
first week, passes his check the second week, passes his check the third
week, fails the check the fourth week (Oort Cloud), passes the fifth week
check, then fails the last check, the GM randomly places him in one of
the surrounding hexes, and the crew proceeds to barbecue the navigator
when they drop out to find nothing but empty space.  I hope they enough
low berths for everyone!  This allows players to get to places they might
not be able to otherwise, with some risk involved. 

 BTW, jump drives are a set of superconducting rings, which are charged (
they are also the capacitors ) when a high temperature plasma is blown
through them, sort of a large MHD generator.  These then discharge,
warping space to a point where a ship literally falls into jump space. 
Jump drives are, then, useless as power supplies, as they must charge and
discharge at a ferocious rate to get the entry into jump space to open. 
There are no jump bubbles, and two ships in jump have an astronomically
low chance of finding each other.  Dropping out of j-space is much
easier, as j-space is essentially a higher energy state of n-space, so
the ship is like an electron boosted to a higher energy level in an atom,
its easy to get it to fall back to its original state, so the residual
charge in the jump drive is all thats needed.  

OK, theres my 0.02 Cr worth, let me know what you think!  (G'head! Shoot
me!  A fusion rifle never hur..uuuuurrrrkkkkkk!!!!!!)

Come by my web pages, drop me a note, make suggestions, they're still
under refit, and all this HTML stuff is new to me.

Jim Clem
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081

_____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:26:24 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

>As I said, this is how it works in my Traveller Universe.  Because the ship
>is isolated from sensors before the final ploting is down and because the
>precalculated plot has to be adjusted at the moment of jump this isn't
>something that can be completely automated.  If you want to automate it
>IYTU, more power to you!
>
>
>Eris,
>     the Heretic


I started reading your post ready to flinch/hit erase/blink etc to avoid
any monstrous heretical crackpot lunatic fringyness but nooo.

This was a very good post. Keep more stuff coming. Especially what the
different crew say to each other during the various phases (I'll use it,
shure bet).

One thing though; why do ships pour their displacement mass out the bow?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:29:44 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

>Sounds good to me (considering I've never given it much thought).
>
>Give this a shot for me and correct any misconceptions.
>
>Almost every ship has a maneuvre drive generating x number of G's. At
>any time (with enough fuel) the ship can accelerate to a maximum of x
>G's. Sometimes, because of circumstance, the ship will pull more than
>it's rated G's. Any crew member can safely move about at 1G and possibly
>2G's, but must be 'tied down' at anything above that or get the stuffing
>knocked out of him, and I think I've seen here that 'man' has
>successfully withstood 18+/- G's in rocket sleds (don't quote me on
>that  cause I don't know). My real question is, what would be the number
>of G's pulled in an accelleration that will take you from zero to a
>speed that will move you 3.26LY (up to roughly 19.56LY) away in 7+/-
>days. Just a thought.
>
>Jim

There is no "speed" associated with jumps. The ship exits this universe for
a week and arrives back in it about a week later. As there is no 1 to 1
correspondence between points in J-space and N-space there's no speed and
thus no mass singularities at c or relativistic weirdness nor acceleration
effects.

All this IMTU of course.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:35:53 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Hard Times

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:

>>>It's a really depressing book, but the primitive ships are neat.  The
>>>pictures inside the front cover says it all (some poor political tagger
>>>got his hand almost completely shot off by a trooper).

Snip.

>Then there's the pregnant woman, with a small child clinging to her,
>standing in front of a bank machine reading "network unavailable" (or some
>similar depressing message)..

Shades of the Long Night...

My favourite is the one at the start (p4) with the man in a raincoat with a
bag of belongings trudging through the rain. Lying by a cardboard box is a
homeless person with a sign 'Will work for food'. Above him is the great
lie of the Imperial Sunburst painted on a wall with the words 'for the
people'. The death of a dream and the harsh realities of the failing
Imperium.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:48:56 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Virus and Vampire fleets.

 "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net> wrote:

>Can anyone explain to me the Virus and the Vampire fleets?  I never actualy
>played TNE, so I am a little lost when it comes to such discussions.

Gulp! Haven't you read the FAQ (Virus being one of those things to avoid
here!).

Virus was an AI Superweapon that exploited the Transponder chips in
starships by mutating them and taking over the heavily interlinked computer
systems of Imperial flagged ships. It was intended to be a weapon that
could be used to peacefully disarm enemy ships but was inadvertantly
released by Dulinor (the Archduke who started the 2nd Civil War) during his
final assault on Core around 1129 BEFORE IT COULD BE CONTROLLED. Virus
spread through the interlinked communications and overran computer nets
everywhere, with homicidal results. The Imperium and all its neighbours
were effectively wiped out with Trillions of deaths.

Vampire is the term used in TNE to describe a ship controlled by Virus.
Vampire fleets are lots of suc ships. To learn more about the 2nd Civil War
try and find Survival Margin, which also discusses Virus.

Anyway, I think it's time to raise the black globes if Virus is the topic,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:59:37 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Please describe everything a person does regarding a jump, before, during, and
>after the jump. My unfamiliarity with the process is obviously biasing me
>against
>your opinion.
>
>My current understanding of the process:
>Travel to safe distance from Gravity wells (I understand this part)

Yep.

>Compute jump coordinate (I understand this part, Average Astrogation task)

Yep.

>Prepare jump drive (I'm not sure what this entails)

Calculate energy distribution through lanthanum grid and warm it up with
first pulse (20% total energy) (SOpM)

>Engage jump drive (Not sure about this too, Average Ship's Engineer task)

Second pulse rips open jumpspace and tumbles ship into it, as bubble is
formed (SOpM)

>Travel through jumpspace (not at all sure what happens here, 6-8 days)

Not much - the actual course and duration are set in the second burst of
energy to the grid.

>Emerge from jumpspace (I understand this part, arrive 100 diameters away)


IMTU the jump field can fluctuate and the bubble can ripple which can
require remedial work by the crew. There is always one of the pilot,
astrogator or engineer on watch making sure that the jump drive is okay and
that the bubble is stable.

>As always, keep in mind that my message torp is a jump ONLY vehicle and
>does have a
>human prepping it before jump and catching it at the other side. The
>autopilot only
>runs things in jumpspace.

Sure - I haven't ruled out automated drones - just said I believe that the
manned element is important to ensure survival of the unit.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:10:20 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:Jump Drive, IMTU

Jim wrote:

>Give this a shot for me and correct any misconceptions.

My real question is, what would be the number
>of G's pulled in an accelleration that will take you from zero to a
>speed that will move you 3.26LY (up to roughly 19.56LY) away in 7+/-
>days. Just a thought.

Jump space isn't normal space. The ship (in canon, the SOpM) tumbles slowly
into jump transition. Acceleration doesn't figure as the ship translates
from normal space to j-space which has different laws. It's not like the
Star Trek Warp Drive. If the ship remained in N-space the acceleration
would be impressive...

Also, can you please stop reposting the whole message (this is a general
request as the layout and content of posts is deteriorating)? Please think
before you send - your last post came immediately after Eris' and
duplicated the whole of Eris' post.... Thanks

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:45:28 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

I downloaded Escape Velocity from download.com the other day (and haven't
been seen since).

The game plays a lot like some Traveller adventures I've been involved
with.  The basic game engine (which is really all there is) has a merchant
going from system to system using a hyperdrive buying cargos low and
selling high, and frequently getting "special" requests for rush cargos or
deliveries.

When you have enough money you can upgrade your ship in various ways, hire
"escorts" to get protection or more cargo space, or, once your ship is a
bristling with weapons, turn pirate and raid the starlanes.  All of this is
against the backdrop of a war between the "Confederation" (Earth and core
worlds) and the "Rebellion" (fringe worlds).

It's pretty cool, if you like that sort if thing, but it *does* require a
Mac.  (I'll resist the urge at this point to say "nah nah nee boo boo").

Pete


                       Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:57:37 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

SD Mooney wrote:

> Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Please describe everything a person does regarding a jump, before, during, and
> >after the jump. My unfamiliarity with the process is obviously biasing me
> >against
> >your opinion.
> >
> >My current understanding of the process:
> >Travel to safe distance from Gravity wells (I understand this part)
>
> Yep.
>
> >Compute jump coordinate (I understand this part, Average Astrogation task)
>
> Yep.
>
> >Prepare jump drive (I'm not sure what this entails)
>
> Calculate energy distribution through lanthanum grid and warm it up with
> first pulse (20% total energy) (SOpM)
>

At this point my message torp is still being handled by a human.

> >Engage jump drive (Not sure about this too, Average Ship's Engineer task)
>
> Second pulse rips open jumpspace and tumbles ship into it, as bubble is
> formed (SOpM)

Starting here, all hands are off the torp. A timer or sensor signals the jump drive
to activate once the tender is clear.

>
>
> >Travel through jumpspace (not at all sure what happens here, 6-8 days)
>
> Not much - the actual course and duration are set in the second burst of
> energy to the grid.
>
> >Emerge from jumpspace (I understand this part, arrive 100 diameters away)
>
> IMTU the jump field can fluctuate and the bubble can ripple which can
> require remedial work by the crew. There is always one of the pilot,
> astrogator or engineer on watch making sure that the jump drive is okay and
> that the bubble is stable.

Then the assumption I can make here is that you have no one man ships in your
traveller universe.  You apparently need constant supervision by trained personel.
Assume 8 hours per day max for a human, you'd need at least 3 people.

The jump field ripple problem also appears to have some flaws that don't jive with
the mechanics of the game.  If these ripples did exist, then you'd have to make
multiple tests during the course of a jump.  But you don't, its just one test (well
two, astrogation and ship's engineer).  It also means that you can affect your jump
bubble to come out in a different location/time.

>
>
> >As always, keep in mind that my message torp is a jump ONLY vehicle and
> >does have a
> >human prepping it before jump and catching it at the other side. The
> >autopilot only
> >runs things in jumpspace.
>
> Sure - I haven't ruled out automated drones - just said I believe that the
> manned element is important to ensure survival of the unit.

Don't get me wrong, these torps require alot of hands on work, just not in
jumpspace.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:01:23 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Gravitiational Charge

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> >      The interesting bit was that it implied that particles could have a
> > gravitiational "charge". Positive or negative.
>
> Gravitational "charge" is known as "mass".

Is that true? I always thought gravitational charge was known as weight. Isn't

mass an intrinsic property of matter?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:36:20 +0000
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> The game plays a lot like some Traveller adventures I've been involved
> with. The basic game engine (which is really all there is) has a merchant
> going from system to system using a hyperdrive buying cargos low and
> selling high, and frequently getting "special" requests for rush cargos
or
> deliveries.
>
<snip>
>
> It's pretty cool, if you like that sort if thing, but it *does* require a
> Mac. (I'll resist the urge at this point to say "nah nah nee boo boo").

Sounds a lot like Elite.  Can't remember what platform Elite started on
but it was ported to the PC about a decade ago.

Nah nah nee boo boo!



Regards PLST
"Who would want a computer named after a fast food chain, built by
a company named after a fruit?"
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:45:33 -0600
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: This old guitar

Ha!  Nanotech meets rock n roll...

Special to ABCNEWS.com

"Scientists at Cornell University have built a guitar so small it could
fit inside a single human blood cell. The "nanoguitar,'' as its creators call it,
could actually be used to strum a tune-but only by someone with really small fingers.
Each of its six strings is only about 100 atoms wide, more than 2,000 times
smaller  than a human hair.  It takes something called an "atomic force
microscope'' to pluck its strings, but they resonate like a real guitar, according to
Harold  Craighead, professor of applied and engineering physics at Cornell. But
Elvis  would find it of little use because the sound is inaudible to the human
ear.  So  what good is it? 

Ultra-Mini Machines
Not much, at least as a musical instrument, Craighead admits, but it does 
show just how far scientists are reaching in their efforts to build ultra-small 
mechanical devices that could be useful in everything from telecommunications 
to biological research. 

The tiny guitar is the brainchild of Dustin Carr, a graduate student in
physics at Cornell.

"He is a guitarist, and his creativity sort of got the best of him,''
Craighead says.

The device was built in the Cornell Nanofabrication Facility, one of two major 
U.S. centers that are leading the charge to develop extremely small electro-
mechanical devices. The other center is at Stanford University. 

Craighead says the guitar was just a fun way to advance the technology, but
he quickly adds that it was a "proper'' experiment because the strings of the
guitar really can be made to resonate. And that shows that the technology
can be used to manipulate and analyze events on a very, very small scale."

Sorry 'bout the tech highlights (I won't send any more) but this is the kind of
stuff Traveller got me thinking about while playing back in '79.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:20:45 -0600
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Hail The New Era...

Below is a partial article pulled from ABC's Science website. Who says
reality is boring?

March 20 - Smaller, faster, cheaper. That's been
               the '90s rallying cry of NASA and governments.
               Perhaps Michael Roukes' motto ought to be: Even
               smaller. 
                    At an American Physical Society meeting earlier this
               week, Roukes, a physicist at the California Institute of
               Technology, presented his latest, tiniest work: a miniscule
               device to measure small amounts of electric charge. 
                    In this frontier field of nanotechnology, even smaller could
               eventually translate into even better and even cheaper for a
               host of applications, including medical imaging machines,
               microscopic robots and tiny sensors. 
                    Roukes' charge-measuring device measures about 20
               millionths of a meter wide. Place about 50 them end to end,
               and they'd be about the width of a human hair. Some of the
               moving parts are as tiny as a few hundred billionths of a meter
               wide. 
                    "It really represents the first application of
               nanoelectromechanics," Roukes says. "It's just the beginning
               of the kinds of things we can do." 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:58:24 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Gravitiational Charge

>Is that true? I always thought gravitational charge was known as weight. Isn't
>
>mass an intrinsic property of matter?

Grav charge is mass (kg) and the attracting force between two massive
bodies is (sometimes) called weight and should be measured in Newtons but
for historical reasons tend to also be measured in kg.

Electrostatic charge is measured in Coulombs and the attractive/repelling
force between two charged bodies is measured in Newton.

See the similarity?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:00:39 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

>Sounds a lot like Elite.  Can't remember what platform Elite started on
>but it was ported to the PC about a decade ago.

Elite lacked Traveller feel but this one shure feels like Traveller. It has
a really nifty plug in system where you can plug in trade goods, weaponry,
graphics for the above, starsystems, missions, adventures etc. Just drop
them in a folder and off you go.

[I'll now take three lashes for drifting off topics]


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:58:14 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

>Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>> The game plays a lot like some Traveller adventures I've been involved
>> with. The basic game engine (which is really all there is) has a merchant
>> going from system to system using a hyperdrive buying cargos low and
>> selling high, and frequently getting "special" requests for rush cargos
>or
>> deliveries.
>>
><snip>
>>
>> It's pretty cool, if you like that sort if thing, but it *does* require a
>> Mac. (I'll resist the urge at this point to say "nah nah nee boo boo").
>
>Sounds a lot like Elite.  Can't remember what platform Elite started on
>but it was ported to the PC about a decade ago.
>
>Nah nah nee boo boo!
>

I never played Elite, but it *is* like an updated Megatraveller I (or II
since they were similar), without the ground stuff, that I played on my PC
years ago (and yes, I still have a PC).

The point of this one is that it's new, its neat, and its shareware, which
means free if you don't get hooked, cheap if you do. (Always pay shareware
fees on games you play/software you use!).

Besides, I go for Macs, I own a Saturn, I'm just a sucker for 'cute'
marketing about "different kinds" of products.

Pete

and nah nah nee boo boo, I've got one of each (now if only I could get my
hands on a sparcstation!).

                       Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:05:37 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures

>        WMF, DXF, et al. are vector formats, which are much more easily
>scaled, edited, and generally messed with. GIF and JPEG are raster or
>bitmap formats. Not nearly as nicely edited.
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --

Then why not settle on something more like standards:

Illustrator files (the standard in DTP), PDF (the standard in
crossplatform), Flash (the standard vector format on the web) or postscript
(the standard on UNIX).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:06:57 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures

>This is only the top of the great graphics file format morass...there
>really _is_ no such thing as a universal vector graphics format.
>
>If I were forced to vote, however, it'd be along platform lines..I'd
>prefer a .pict file.

I'd vote for Illustrator or Postscript.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #305
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 306



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: X-boats
Re: Heretics Jump Drives
Re: Gravitiational Charge
Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
Re: Uniforms - pictures on-line
RE: Boeing -- Boeing
Re: Military protocol question...
Re: Solomani Rim Information
Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.
Re: Uniforms
RE: Pocket Empires questions
Tech Career
Re: X-boats (fwd)
Re: Heretics Jump Drives
Re: Boeing -- Boeing
Traveller Timeline

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:10:06 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: X-boats

>It's very simple...
>It isn't that it cannot be done, it just WON'T be done.  While there is nothing
>that technologically prevents such devices from operating, there are TONS of
>reasons why they won't be used.

I think the reason has to be technical rather than cultural as we se in
canon designs that all major races seem to have crewed ships. Vargr,
Aslans, K'kree, Zhodani, Solomani, Vilani, Droyne etc.

It has to be a fundamental problem or maybe that those civs going for the
fully automated ship option never become great empires (go figure).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:23:09 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Heretics Jump Drives

warmind@juno.com (james a clem) said;
>In the campaign I'm presently putting together, the jump number of the
>drive is indeed the number of parsecs a ship can cover in about a week,
>with one key difference.  A ship in jump can continue to cover that
>distance per week until it decides to drop out of jump.  So a jump one
>tramp freighter can cover six parsecs in six weeks, with only one jump.
>Now, I know that changes the character of the game without something to
>limit it, so here is the bad news.  Jump space is not as homogenous as
>normal space, in terms of spacial densities, and so distances in jump
>actually vary with time.  One major source of research funding is the
>search for reliable systems and/or maps to take this into account.  At
>any rate, the result is the longer you stay in jump space, the more off
>course you tend to get.  Basically a cumulative mis-jump.  This effect
>seems to be more time related than distance, so the jump 1 freighter
>travelling 6 parsecs has more of a chance of being off course than the
>jump 6 cruiser travelling the same path.

This is an interesting twist.  It does have several inmmportant effects
based on a few questions;

How much fuel does a J-1 ship travelling 6 parsecs consume?

Will two ships jumping together arrive at the same place at the same time?

How do military vessels behave; in other words, with all the resources
available to the military can the "dispersion effect" be corrected for?

The problem is one of background, not game mechanics.  With the ability to
insert a fleet of commerce raiders into the rear areas (so to speak) of the
enemy, the Fifth Frontier War will look much different, with desperate
defenses occurring in back areas to maintain the flow of supplies and
replacements to the "front".  Wandering bands of, say, Azhanti Class
cruisers in the backfield of the advancing Zho fleets would also be able to
raise havoc at will.

> As for game mechanics, I've expanded navigation to become n-space
>navigation and j-space navigation.  I'm not sure yet how I'll fit those
>into the character creation, comments are much desired and welcome.

I don't think this is necessary.  N-space navigation is a bitch to do by
hand, but I bet a PC XT could do the math for vector based movement.
Navigation skill them becomes (1) Jump Space Navigation and (2) general
navigation principals for use when planetside and (3) principals of n-space
navigation.  Not really too much for one skill, considering the scope of
some others (i.e. Demolitions, Engineer, Electronics).

[snip]
> the GM randomly places him in one of
>the surrounding hexes, and the crew proceeds to barbecue the navigator
>when they drop out to find nothing but empty space.  I hope they enough
>low berths for everyone!  This allows players to get to places they might
>not be able to otherwise, with some risk involved.

Again, fuel consumption may affect this problem greatly.

>Dropping out of j-space is much
>easier, as j-space is essentially a higher energy state of n-space, so
>the ship is like an electron boosted to a higher energy level in an atom,
>its easy to get it to fall back to its original state, so the residual
>charge in the jump drive is all thats needed.

I like the "sound" of this handwave.  It does however, beg another
question; Can a ship drop out of jump at will?  This is not a big problem,
but has implications for some traveller type adventures (I've always wanted
to do the "stuck in jumpspace knowing one of us is a killer" adventure -
oh, I have!)

>OK, theres my 0.02 Cr worth, let me know what you think!  (G'head! Shoot
>me!  A fusion rifle never hur..uuuuurrrrkkkkkk!!!!!!)

There are a lot of departures here, but if you don't care about the
Traveller Background too much, who cares.  Just remember that if its
possible for player characters, its probably easier/less risky for military
institutions and those with money to spend.

It's good to go to new places, but there are other ways to get them there.
And if you have a plot that needs the characters to misjump, manufacture a
drive malfunction.  Hey its a hackneyed plot device, but its overused
because it works!

Pete


                       Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:55:56 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Gravitiational Charge

Anders Backman wrote:

> >Is that true? I always thought gravitational charge was known as weight. Isn't
> >
> >mass an intrinsic property of matter?
>
> Grav charge is mass (kg) and the attracting force between two massive
> bodies is (sometimes) called weight and should be measured in Newtons but
> for historical reasons tend to also be measured in kg.
>
> Electrostatic charge is measured in Coulombs and the attractive/repelling
> force between two charged bodies is measured in Newton.
>
> See the similarity?
>

Yes. This is much clearer now. Mass is like the strength of a magnetic field,while
weight is like the attractive force between two opposing poles of that
field.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:14:04 PST
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

>From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
>
>Sounds a lot like Elite.  Can't remember what platform Elite started on
>but it was ported to the PC about a decade ago.
>
>Nah nah nee boo boo!
>

I believe it started on the C-64, but you probably could have found it 
on all the inexpensive computing platforms of the time.

PZ


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:44:57 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Uniforms - pictures on-line

>> Dress Me Up) and stuck it up on my web-page. These include a Naval uniform
>> and (most of) an Army uniform. Discuss. Enjoy.
>Hey Jo,
>where can I get the lzh for this character? The pics are nice, though i
>dont see some of those outfits IMTU. Anyway, do you have the data up
>somewhere or just the pics?

Jo seems to be pretty busy this weekend...I've never known him to go three
days without sending me or the list *something* in the last 6 months or so.

His lzh file is named elise.lzh and is at;

ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/

Pete

                       Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:04:30 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Boeing -- Boeing

On Monday, 23 March 1998 23:03, GDW GAMES [SMTP:GDWGAMES@aol.com] wrote:
> Boeing has a reputation for this sort of stuff, dating back to WWII, when
> B-17s were put through some remarkable hoops. I keep running across rumors of
> a pilot pulling an Immelman with a B-17, but have never found solid proof. 
> 
> Loren Wiseman


It would not surprise me.  ISTR on a PBS special about the 767 (I think)
that one of the test pilots at Boeing actually took a 747 into a
complete roll, and that the aircraft performed very well.

I'm sitting about 3 miles from the Boeing (ex McDonnell-Douglas)
assembly line in St Louis.  There is a parking lot at the end of one of
the runways at Lambert field where you can park and watch them test
aircraft.

- -Vanya  (aka Vargr1)                                     UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ----------------------------------- The Future is in Beta
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
 "...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." |   dmoody@bridge.com
- --Not-the-IG Pages - http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/default.html--
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:04:56 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Military protocol question...

At 01:15 AM 3/24/98 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> I don't know how accurate the movies are, but we always used to laugh at US
>> privates having to call their NCOs 'Sir'. If we did that the laest you'd
>> get was "Don't insult me like that again - I work for my pay. Give me 30!
>> (press-ups)".
>
>US NCOs react much the same according to every ex-service type I've
>ever talked to. You *don't* call NCO's "Sir!"

US Marines call their Drill Instructors Sir.  Army recruits call them Drill
Sergeants.

In the real Army, you call a NCO by his rank.  Sergeants, Staff Sergeants,
and Sergeants First Class are all just called Sergeant in casual
situations.  Master Sergeants, First Sergeants, and Sergeants Major are all
called by their complete ranks.  

Since I'm not a Marine, I don't know what the protocol with regards to
calling them "Gunny."

A note on "sarge".  Despite Hollywood, most NCOs dislike the term sarge as
a shorthand version of rank.  I knew one Sergeant who accepted that title.
First Sergeants are sometimes referred to as Top Sergeant, or Top Dog
(Kick, wahtever.)

What NCOs are called behind their backs is another topic, one that I will
not share with the possibility of children reading this list.
- --

+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
|    "But think of Korea, of Guadalcanal, of  |
| Belleau Wood, of Viet Nam.  The H-bomb did  |
| not abolish the infantryman; it made him    |
| essential... and he has the toughest job of |
| all and should be honored."                 |
|                       - Robert Heinlein     |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:09:21 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Solomani Rim Information

At 03:42 PM 3/23/98 -0500, Harold wrote:

<in regards to melting ice-caps>

>   Net result: we find stuff frozen in the old ice that was better left
>there...but no floods in Amsterdam or Miami.

I just checked mu topographic map, and raising the sea level 50m would put
about 70% of San Francisco under water.  I'd be okay, since the hill I live
on sits 65m above sea level, but it would make grocery shopping difficult.

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:18:59 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.

At 08:54 PM 3/23/98 -0700, you wrote:

>4. One of the baddies, the Emperor Lucan (Strephon's son) 

Minor nit.  Lucan was not Strephon's son (that would have been a clear line
of ascension) but some sort of cousin.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:11:22 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Uniforms

At 03:26 PM 3/23/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
>
>>Headgear is a maroon beret.  Officers on shipboard duty wear a flash with
>>the ship's crest.  All others have a black flash with a gold sunburst.
>>(Exception: Members of the Marine Guard wear the Emperor's family crest, to
>>show their devotion to the man, rather than the office.)
>
>Aw, come on.  Why berets?  I'm so sure!  They're, like, sooooo three
>thousand years ago.

That's the point.  IMTU. the Imperial Marines take their lineage form the
Solomani Marines, who draw back to units of the Terran Confederation.
Specificaly, the 82nd Airborne Divison, the United States Marine Corps, and
the Royal Marines.  The maroon color, the beret, and the officer's cutlass
are all symbols of these lineage.

>>Trousers are white, with a maroon strip running down the outside seam of
>>each leg.  The trousers are bloused into a pair of calf-high boots, which
>>are highly shined.
>
>The Sayat wear high-tech running shoes.  Steel-toed, granted.  <insert
>obvious pun on brand names here>

The duty uniform uses much more sensible footwear.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:20:34 -0500
From: Chris Jones <Cjones@manhattanassociates.com>
Subject: RE: Pocket Empires questions

> I've been reading PE and a couple of questions have come up.
> 
> First, there are no limitations indicated for Resource Trade (pages
> 38-40).  It appears as if a world can gain Resources from imports and
> exports even if it doesn't have anyone to trade with, or without regard to
> the attributes of its trading partners.  I suppose it's easy enough to fix
> by just ignoring either the problem or the rule, or applying a simple fix
> that says you can't do Resource Trade without at least N trading partners.
> What should N be valued at?
> 
	[->]  I believe that the PE text says that resource trade
represents buying off of an interstellar commodities market that is
serviced by free traders and other private distribution systems.  Your
point is a good one, though.  The need to secure resources has
frequently been one of the primary motivating forces behind imperialism
( Japan is an excellent example ).  So perhaps a house rule could be
added which requires that resources be imported from a world where your
Empire has at least X level of influence, or you could trade for
resources with another Empire.
	  
> Second, unlimited population growth beyond Pop Code A doesn't seem to have
> any effect on a world.  Shouldn't there be a variety of cultural, social,
> and hence economic, effects resulting from this?  Shouldn't instability
> result from overpopulation?  Don't many worlds have a hard limit to the
> population they can support, given Resources and Infrastructure? Doesn't
> a population control policy effect Popularity?  Am I wrong or do we need a
> lot of rules to deal with this issue?
> 
	[->]  Another good point.  How about this: for a world to grow
to or maintain Pop Code A,
	you must own/have X amount of influence over one agricultural
planet.  To grow to/maintain Pop code C, you must have 10 agricultural
planets.  You must have as many ag planets as planets with pop code A (
Eg: if my empire has 3 planets with pop code A and 1 with code B, I have
to maintain at least 13 agricultural worlds. )  If you ever fall below
the requisite number of ag worlds, there will be negative population
effects ( and probably negative popularity effects, too).  If your
Population reaches 9.999 billion and you don't specifically allocate an
ag. world to supply it, the population doesn't grow.  ( This doesn't
represent starvation, just rising food prices which lead to rising costs
of living, which lead people to start families later in life and have
fewer children.  There may be some popularity effects, though. )
	   Another possibility: trading for food resources.
>  
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:27:59
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Tech Career

I've added to my site the stuff I collected about the Technician career.
Beside the original piece, plus some new tools, I've obtained from Peter
Vialls a couple of articles originally written for an RPG magazine.

The url is http://www.inrete.it/games/traveller

Comments are welcome!



__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred) | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:23:49 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

At 09:57 AM 3/24/98 -0500, Joe Petit wrote:
>SD Mooney wrote:
>> Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >Emerge from jumpspace (I understand this part, arrive 100 diameters away)
>>
>> IMTU the jump field can fluctuate and the bubble can ripple which can
>> require remedial work by the crew. There is always one of the pilot,
>> astrogator or engineer on watch making sure that the jump drive is okay and
>> that the bubble is stable.
>
>Then the assumption I can make here is that you have no one man ships in your
>traveller universe.  You apparently need constant supervision by trained
personel.
>Assume 8 hours per day max for a human, you'd need at least 3 people.

Why assume 8 hour days?  Efficiency drops dramatically if you are
effectively on call all of the time, and you sleep in a half doze on the
bridge, but it can be done.  Further, if the events leading to a problem
start small and work large, then someone can snooze, and get woken when the
crisis seems real, making XBoats both grueling and hazardous.  A full crew
fixes problems before they are serious, while a skeleton crew is not able
to do that.

This is also why the standard Scout/Courier has a crew of two or four, so
the pilots/ etc. does not completely flip.  I also rule that the smaller
the ship, the less effort the fixes require.  Were a 1 ton jump field
possible, it would  be easier to automate.  On a big ship, there are a lot
of people working to keep the grid stable.

>The jump field ripple problem also appears to have some flaws that don't jive with
>the mechanics of the game.  If these ripples did exist, then you'd have to make
>multiple tests during the course of a jump.  But you don't, its just one test (well
>two, astrogation and ship's engineer).  It also means that you can affect your jump
>bubble to come out in a different location/time.

If the ripples are failures in your jump field, and these failures lead to
vessel destruction if not stopped, it can be explained.  The canonical idea
of a completely hands off drive has always seemed kind of silly, but the
idea that nothing outside the ship (known to TL <16 science, at least) can
affect a ship in jump can work.  As long as nothing the vessel does can
speed up the time, or change the destination, then you are fairly well
within canon limits.

Exactly how you implement that varies, and is the difficulty with some of
the info listed in the SOM.

NB, having a widget that must work, and that survival depends on is a good
plot hook, and explains just what those pilots/engineers/astrogators are
doing during that time.  The engineers maintain the box that the pilot uses
to fiddle with the field in accordance with the nav plan.

Scott 
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:10:30 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Heretics Jump Drives

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:23:09 -0400 "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
writes:

>>In the campaign I'm presently putting together, the jump number of the
>>drive is indeed the number of parsecs a ship can cover in about a week,
>>with one key difference.  A ship in jump can continue to cover that
>>distance per week until it decides to drop out of jump.  So a jump one
>>tramp freighter can cover six parsecs in six weeks, with only one jump.

>
>This is an interesting twist.  It does have several inmmportant effects
>based on a few questions;
>
>How much fuel does a J-1 ship travelling 6 parsecs consume?


The same amount as it would consume in the canon rules.  The drive is
really only there to place the ship at a higher spacial energy level. 
Thus the J-1 places it at energy level 1, while a J-6 reaches to level 6.
 Once there the drive is shut down.  In fact, most of the hydrogen is not
fused, but used in the form of a drive plasma, which energizes the
J-drive.


>
>Will two ships jumping together arrive at the same place at the same 
>time?


It would seem reasonable that they would.  Just to add a twist, I might
have each ship's navigator include a station keeping task as well.  J
space is quite chaotic, and ships could be separated without warning by
quite a distance.  If the both tasks are failed, the ships will arrive
separated by some 1D6 x 5 Hrs.  If a large group of vessels enter J space
together, keeping up with each other will actually be easier, as they can
keep an eye on each other, though they will still tend to be strung out
when they drop out.  For groups of more than 5 ships, there is only a 1 %
chance that the group will get scattered.  Otherwise, when they drop out,
each ship is separated by 1D6 x 10 minutes.  Now, if ships do become
separated, they all have to continue nav checks, and if a series of
failures occurs, they whole group could end up scattered over parsecs of
distance.  Needless to say, most of the time, the risks of using long
jumps are not worth it.  Also, these station keeping problems are a small
scale effect of J space.  The broad scale problem of getting off course
by parsecs can still effect the whole fleet.  Groups get a modifier to
help with the task, and the best navigator in the fleet makes the roll.


>
>How do military vessels behave; in other words, with all the resources
>available to the military can the "dispersion effect" be corrected 
>for?


Travelling in groups helps (see above), but the large scale dispersion is
still a problem.  The military would probably have some advantage in this
area, but it can still happen.  


>
>The problem is one of background, not game mechanics.  With the ability to
>insert a fleet of commerce raiders into the rear areas (so to speak) of the
>enemy, the Fifth Frontier War will look much different, with desperate
>defenses occurring in back areas to maintain the flow of supplies and
>replacements to the "front".  Wandering bands of, say, Azhanti Class
>cruisers in the backfield of the advancing Zho fleets would also be able to
>raise havoc at will.


Quite true.  The dispersion problem will keep these commerce raiders from
banding together in large groups though, but then raiders work best in
small units anyway.  Also, even though you can jump into an enemies rear
areas, you still have the logistic problems, such as re-fueling in
hostile systems.  Expect to find lots of system defense boats in those
gas giants and oceans.


>
>> As for game mechanics, I've expanded navigation to become n-space
>>navigation and j-space navigation.  I'm not sure yet how I'll fit those
>>into the character creation, comments are much desired and welcome.
>
>I don't think this is necessary.  N-space navigation is a bitch to do by
>hand, but I bet a PC XT could do the math for vector based movement.
>Navigation skill them becomes (1) Jump Space Navigation and (2) general
>navigation principals for use when planetside and (3) principals of n-space
>navigation.  Not really too much for one skill, considering the scope of
>some others (i.e. Demolitions, Engineer, Electronics).
>


Hmmm, good point.


>[snip]
>> the GM randomly places him in one of
>>the surrounding hexes, and the crew proceeds to barbecue the navigator
>>when they drop out to find nothing but empty space.  I hope they enough
>>low berths for everyone!  This allows players to get to places they might
>>not be able to otherwise, with some risk involved.
>
>Again, fuel consumption may affect this problem greatly.
>
>>Dropping out of j-space is much
>>easier, as j-space is essentially a higher energy state of n-space, so
>>the ship is like an electron boosted to a higher energy level in an atom,
>>its easy to get it to fall back to its original state, so the residual
>>charge in the jump drive is all thats needed.
>
>I like the "sound" of this handwave.  It does however, beg another
>question; Can a ship drop out of jump at will?  This is not a big problem,
>but has implications for some traveller type adventures (I've always wanted
>to do the "stuck in jumpspace knowing one of us is a killer" adventure 
>-
>oh, I have!)


Actually, ships *can* drop out at will, the problem is, they better have
the fuel to jump again, or theyre not going anywhere fast.  If a ship
drops out, and has the fuel to jump again, the crew must make 1D6 x 5 Hrs
of astrogation observations to find out precisely where they are, before
they jump again.  If not, of if they are forced to jump to soon, they
suffer an automatic mis jump (by my rules, not the canon rules).  Once
again, they must make observations before a safe jump can be made.


>>OK, theres my 0.02 Cr worth, let me know what you think!  (G'head! Shoot
>>me!  A fusion rifle never hur..uuuuurrrrkkkkkk!!!!!!)
>
>There are a lot of departures here, but if you don't care about the
>Traveller Background too much, who cares.  Just remember that if its
>possible for player characters, its probably easier/less risky for military
>institutions and those with money to spend.


The canon background is very good, so I hope no one out there takes all
this too hard.  I just can help my self, I like creating my own
universes.


>
>It's good to go to new places, but there are other ways to get them there.
>And if you have a plot that needs the characters to misjump, manufacture a
>drive malfunction.  Hey its a hackneyed plot device, but its overused
>because it works!
>
>Pete
>
>
>                       Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
>"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
>  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)
>
>
>

Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:54:34 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Boeing -- Boeing

GDW GAMES wrote:

> Boeing has a reputation for this sort of stuff, dating back to WWII, when
> B-17s were put through some remarkable hoops. I keep running across rumors of
> a pilot pulling an Immelman with a B-17, but have never found solid proof.

I don't doubt it.  Assuming he started at 35,000 feet and dove first.  I play a
game called Warbirds that is a WWII air combat simulator that played by hundreds
of people on the internet at the same time.  I can do amazing things with the
B17.  Its not 100% accurate flight model yet, buts tis close.  they've even
modelled things like propeller drag.  Anyway, you can find all sorts of similar
stories on comp.pc.ibm.games.flight-sim.

Ob traveller:  I bet some ships that aren't streamlined or designed for landing
and taking off a planet's surface could be forced to, if the manufacturer of the
space ship was good enough.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:03:06 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Traveller Timeline

I've just begun playing Traveller again (T4) after about 12 years 
off!  I'm an old CT baby.  I never got into any of the other 
variations, but from watching the list, and surfing the 
TravellerWebring, the TNE/Virus portion of the timeline interests me. 
I have not been able to find any more info about that part of the 
timeline ... thus, we are stuck around 1110, the era of the CT info 
(which I still own a lot of).  


Visit the Computer Profits Website
A wealth of information
http://www.computerprofits.virtual-spaces.com
James Pearson / Pearson Publishing
pearsonpub@computerprofits.virtual-spaces.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #306
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 307



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Boeing -- Boeing -- Gone! (part 2)
re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)
Boeing -- Boeing
Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
Re: Heretics Jump Drives
Re: Traveller Timeline
Re: Boeing -- Boeing
re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)
For  Sale
EXTREMELY ObTrav: Movies
Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.
Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: Uniforms - pictures on-line
re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.
Re: Military protocol question...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:06:09 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Boeing -- Boeing -- Gone! (part 2)

trisen@postmaster.co.uk wrote:

> Oops.  Forgot to add:
>
> Didn't the Kinunir class Colonial Cruiser have  an  AI  computer?
> And didn't one go nuts, kill the crew, but then  get  trapped  in
> the belt system Shionthy/Regina with insufficient fuel to  leave?
> That means that, apart from the AI bit, the ship's  computer  had
> full access to all the control systems and  the  ship  could  fly
> itself ... according to _CT_ cannon.
>
> Regards PLST

A great many of modern civilian passenger planes have reduced the pilot's
ability to get information about his plane from tactile senses, i.e., he
can't tell from holding the yoke exactly what his plane is doing.  Whether
its straining to whatever, stick moves.  I think its called "fly-by-wire"
with the stick's movements are converted into a signal that tells the servo
on the flap, etc., what to do.  The most recent design have gone back the
other way.  Many sticks on planes now have a "tickler" or a "trembler"
that shakes the stick, etc., to give the pilot tactile information about
the condition of his plane and its flight.  This essentially lets the pilot
takes his eyes off the sticks and instruments as long as he keeps his hand
on the stick because he will instantly feel any change in the plane's
aspect (speed, angle, etc.).  If the plane starts to go into stall, the
stick will shake at a more and more dramatic rate.  Once its in full stall,
and the pilot takes no action, it puts the plane into an automated dive to
generate speed then climbs and levels the plane, i.e., autopilot comes on.

Ob traveller:  Maybe at high TLs, you put a sensor on the pilot, on his
hand on his forehead, wherever.  Maybe even a cyberware datajack type
thing.  That will let the pilot sense exactly what the ship is doing, no
matter where he is on board.  At even higher levels, he wouldn't even need
to be in the pilots chair to fly the ship (theoretically anyway, that might
be heretical).

Whats even cooler, IMHO, is the fact that the Space Shuttle can land, and
apparently often does, on autopilot.  Thats amazing to me.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 21:09 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)

Moin SD Mooney,

> Gulp! Haven't you read the FAQ (Virus being one of those things to avoid
> here!).

	If the FAQ is realy saying this, I would vote also to remove
	Loren and his non canon GURPS junk from this list.

	For those who are still playing TNE paste this to your shell.

	echo 'subscribe TNE-RCES' | /usr/lib/sendmail listproc@tower.ml.org

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 20:56 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Boeing -- Boeing

Moin Loren Wiseman,

> Boeing has a reputation for this sort of stuff, dating back to WWII, when
> B-17s were put through some remarkable hoops. I keep running across rumors of
> a pilot pulling an Immelman with a B-17, but have never found solid proof. 

	An Immelman is much easier than a looping. The main problem with
	the Immelman in combat is that you can have problems with the
	maximum dive, if the other airplane sees you and also starting
	to dive. The Immelman is a SUPRISE attack from high position.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:39:13 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

> When you have enough money you can upgrade your ship in various ways, hire
> "escorts" to get protection or more cargo space, or, once your ship is a
> bristling with weapons, turn pirate and raid the starlanes.  All of this is
> against the backdrop of a war between the "Confederation" (Earth and core
> worlds) and the "Rebellion" (fringe worlds).
> 
> It's pretty cool, if you like that sort if thing, but it *does* require a
> Mac.  (I'll resist the urge at this point to say "nah nah nee boo boo").
> 
> Pete


PC's have had this game for years..it's called "Tradewars 2002".  :)

So, "nah nah nee boo boo" right back at ya..:) :) :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:40:31 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

> Sounds a lot like Elite.  Can't remember what platform Elite started on
> but it was ported to the PC about a decade ago.
> 
> Nah nah nee boo boo!


Hahaha, I forgot about "Elite".  Been too many years.  It started on the
Commodore-64 platform.  :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:52:45 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

> Pete
> 
> and nah nah nee boo boo, I've got one of each (now if only I could get my
> hands on a sparcstation!).


The newest SPARC station can handle up to 10 CPU's of the "Merced"
brand.  Ahh, just think of the computing power..:)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:54:14 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Heretics Jump Drives

warmind@juno.com (james a clem) said;
>On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:23:09 -0400 "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>writes:
[sniparoo]
>>>  So a jump one
>>>tramp freighter can cover six parsecs in six weeks, with only one jump.
[me]
>>How much fuel does a J-1 ship travelling 6 parsecs consume?
[james]
>The same amount as it would consume in the canon rules.  The drive is
>really only there to place the ship at a higher spacial energy level.
>Thus the J-1 places it at energy level 1, while a J-6 reaches to level 6.
> Once there the drive is shut down.  In fact, most of the hydrogen is not
>fused, but used in the form of a drive plasma, which energizes the
>J-drive.

Ok by "canon rules" (CT and T4 being my choice to fit this term) a ship
consumes 10% of its tonnage for every parsec it travels.  I think you mean
to say that your ships consume 10% of their tonnage to achieve jumpspace,
but use no more than that in spite of the distance travelled in over a week
(in other words a J1 ship travelling at a "speed" of 1 parsec/week consumes
10% of its tonnage for fuel, even if it "stays" in jumpspace for 6 weeks).
Please let me know if this is wrong.

It also concerns me in the extreme examples; a J4 Xboat system could remain
in jump space just one extra week, cutting message travel times by half or
more, with fairly little risk (and a sufficiently large network could cover
that risk in several ways).

>>Will two ships jumping together arrive at the same place at the same
>>time?
>
>It would seem reasonable that they would.  Just to add a twist, I might
>have each ship's navigator include a station keeping task as well.  J
>space is quite chaotic, and ships could be separated without warning by
>quite a distance.  If the both tasks are failed, the ships will arrive
>separated by some 1D6 x 5 Hrs.  If a large group of vessels enter J space
>together, keeping up with each other will actually be easier, as they can
>keep an eye on each other, though they will still tend to be strung out
>when they drop out.  For groups of more than 5 ships, there is only a 1 %
>chance that the group will get scattered.  Otherwise, when they drop out,
>each ship is separated by 1D6 x 10 minutes.  Now, if ships do become
>separated, they all have to continue nav checks, and if a series of
>failures occurs, they whole group could end up scattered over parsecs of
>distance.  Needless to say, most of the time, the risks of using long
>jumps are not worth it.  Also, these station keeping problems are a small
>scale effect of J space.  The broad scale problem of getting off course
>by parsecs can still effect the whole fleet.  Groups get a modifier to
>help with the task, and the best navigator in the fleet makes the roll.

See, I don't think this is such a big deal.  Lets say you have a fleet of
ships; detroyers, battleships, troop transports, all set to invade, say,
Mora, all J-3.  They travel in J-space at J-1 for 12 weeks or so, beginning
at the Zho border.

They all emerge within three parsecs of their jump point (exactly where
doesn't matter as long as they are within 3) Refuel from the tankers they
brought along, and arrive at Mora a week later in strength that can bust up
any Impies that show their face, until the whole assault fleet way over in
Regina or Depot can be turned around and sent back to deal with them (of
course, they can use the same tactic).  Now, this tactic could work a
little worse in the canon traveller universe, but the logistics are quite a
bit easier your way.

Likewise the fleet, when finally confronted, could jump *back* to a
sufficiently dense area of Zho space and all get recovered in 12 more
weeks.  So the trip is not one-way by any means (and they leave behind the
shattered wreck of what was a major industrial world).

>
>The canon background is very good, so I hope no one out there takes all
>this too hard.  I just can help my self, I like creating my own
>universes.

If they object, screw em!  Your game, your universe.  Most of the people on
this list (who are actually playing) are using a variant of Traveller
ranging from a few misplaced nobles here and there to a full blown, home
made task system, travel by jump gates, million ton free traders,
completely revamped background, etc. etc.  Some people even use (shudder)
TNE!  I even saw a thread about using Traveller to play in the D&D type
background!  (and here I am going to play D&D tonight!).

Just remember, if you decide to publish, or even just share materials with
the world a few of these things could be "broken" for other campaigns or
canon rules users.

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:47:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Timeline

"Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net> wrote:

>I've just begun playing Traveller again (T4) after about 12 years 
>off!  I'm an old CT baby.  I never got into any of the other 
>variations, but from watching the list, and surfing the 
>TravellerWebring, the TNE/Virus portion of the timeline interests me. 
>I have not been able to find any more info about that part of the 
>timeline ... thus, we are stuck around 1110, the era of the CT info 
>(which I still own a lot of).  

   There are several places that you can go for info on the New Era setting.
One is Joe Heck's Web site (http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/).  I
would also highly recommend the BARD pages
(http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/bard.html/) and Chris Griffen's site
(http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml)--there are of course
many other good sites, but those two have links to most of them.  

   There is also a TNE mailing list, where questions regarding the New Era
and its setting are discussed on a regular basis.  Send a message
'subscribe' to listproc@tower.ml.org.  For help, send a message 'help' to
the same location.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:06:29 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Boeing -- Boeing

Michael Koehne wrote:

> Moin Loren Wiseman,
>
> > Boeing has a reputation for this sort of stuff, dating back to WWII, when
> > B-17s were put through some remarkable hoops. I keep running across rumors of
> > a pilot pulling an Immelman with a B-17, but have never found solid proof.
>
>         An Immelman is much easier than a looping. The main problem with
>         the Immelman in combat is that you can have problems with the
>         maximum dive, if the other airplane sees you and also starting
>         to dive. The Immelman is a SUPRISE attack from high position.

Your right that an Immelman is not a loop.  Its more accurately described as a half
loop.
For those interested who don't know, an Immelman is an air combat manuever in which
you pull up as if you're starting a loop.  At the top of the loop you eventually
end up inverted (upside down) so you roll the plane 180 degreess so that you're
rightside up.  Now you are going the opposite direction but at a higher altitude.
This puts you at a higher energy state (energy being potential and kinetic, i.e.,
altitude and speed).  Strictly speaking, no dive is necessary.  The move is
complete when you've finished rolling to rightside up.  Although, it puts you in a
better position to make an attack.

Its not really a surprise manuever.  Its a way to get to higher altitude and change
direction at the same time.  If you've got suprise, there is little point in using
it.  If the enemy doesn't see you, lag pursuit from the opponent's low 6 position
(behind and below) is ideal, because he can't see you.  An immelman will make you
more visible.  Its best when you already have greater speed than your opponent but
need altitude, preferably you also have a plane that is a better climber.

Ob traveller, are there any rules for non-space air combat?   Or atmosphere combat
with starships both airframe and streamlined?

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:21:39 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)

At 09:09 PM 3/24/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Moin SD Mooney,
>
>> Gulp! Haven't you read the FAQ (Virus being one of those things to avoid
>> here!).
>
>	If the FAQ is realy saying this, I would vote also to remove
>	Loren and his non canon GURPS junk from this list.

Hmmm..

A but extreme a measure, I believe. Unless it was humor.

I play *canon* but just a different version of *canon*, ie MegaTraveller.

Besides Loren's working for the only company right know that has the
ablility, money, will and resources to publish a Traveller Line(Yes it is
GURPS). 

IG is *Dead In The Water*, only time will tell if IG joins the Titanic at
the bottom, or gets underway again. I Believe the former is the most likely
event.

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:30:18 +0400
From: Andy Long <andylong@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: For  Sale

I have spare copies of the following:

2300AD:
	Rotten to the Core
Merc:2000/Twilight:2000
	Merc:2000 Rules
	Bangkok: cesspool of the Orient
MegaTraveller
	Player's Manual
	Hard Times
	MegaTraveller Journal Nos 2 and 3
	Challenge Nos 37,42,44-46,53-55,72,76

Offers?

Please bear in mind that I have to post these items from the Middle East. So 
long as I can cover my costs, first come first served.

Andy
	

- -------------------------------------------------------
Andy Long			andylong@emirates.net.ae
C/o ICL			andyl@icluae.co.ae
PO Box 7237			+971 (50) 641 8232 (Mobile)
Abu Dhabi			+971 (2) 274688 (Res/Fax)
United Arab Emirates	+971 (2) 335200 (Office)
- -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:22:06 +0400
From: Andy Long <andylong@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: EXTREMELY ObTrav: Movies

WARNING: This mail produced under the murpluence of Inclys - I mean the 
affluence of Murph... What the hell, if you've never had six pints of Murphy's 
on an empty stomach, you'll just have to guess. Delete it if you want, see if I 
care.

Movies. I was standing in the bar at the local, waiting for the ladies to 
appear (ladies night in the middle east, more men than women, but that's what 
the hotels are after - after all, the men spend the money) when my attention 
was grabbed by a trailer for a movie on the satellite channel. Seemed to be 
just a.n.other post-apocalyptic story,  USA in early 21st century, horses + 
M16's. But wait. Isn't that Kevin Costner?

It is. And what's the movie? THE POSTMAN. I guess that this would be an 
adaptation of David Brin's classic SF novel, but I hadn't even heard that it 
was being filmed. Ah, me. This is what you get from living in the backwaters of 
the West.

If that was all, I  wouldn't have send this mail. But the Kostner was only a 
treiler for an upcoming event. The actual movie that was about to be shown was 
HBO's adaptation of Robert Harris' FATHERLAND. Yet another movie that I would 
never have expected to have been made. It was in a pub, so I couldn't hear the 
sound track over the music, but...

What? How is this ObTrav? Well.... Postman is somewhat ObHard Times, more 
nearly ObTW:2000 (Howling Wilderness), really. But Fatherland is classic 
Traveller. There's Adolf (Charismatic Dictator if ever there was one) and the 
power struggle between Goebels (not very charismatic) and Heydrich (even less 
so). Can you spell POLITICAL INTRIGUE ON BALKANISED WORLD? I thought so.

So  can anyone give me an opinion on the value of these two movies? (don't 
bother disputing the books - I already know how much I like them - which is 
quite a lot).

regards

Andy

- -------------------------------------------------------
Andy Long			andylong@emirates.net.ae
C/o ICL			andyl@icluae.co.ae
PO Box 7237			+971 (50) 641 8232 (Mobile)
Abu Dhabi			+971 (2) 274688 (Res/Fax)
United Arab Emirates	+971 (2) 335200 (Office)
- -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:28:19 +1200
From: "Douglas D, Law School Computer Support" <DOUGLASD@waikato.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

J-Man <j-man@iname.com> wrote:

>> Sounds a lot like Elite.  Can't remember what platform Elite started on
>> but it was ported to the PC about a decade ago.
>
>Hahaha, I forgot about "Elite".  Been too many years.  It started on the
>Commodore-64 platform.  :)

 <BZZZT>

 from <http://people.netcom.co.uk/i.bell/elite/Default.html>

"Elite was originally written in 1984 by myself and David Braben for the 
 BBC Microcomputer. It has since been converted to many platforms."

 and also wrote in a second message (please people, learn to use your
 mailers and some mailing list nettiquette PDQ):


>PC's have had this game for years..it's called "Tradewars 2002".  :)

 uh, from the quick scan of some webpages, Tradewars 2002 sounds quite
 dissimilar from EV (Escape Velocity).


 Anyone with access to a Mac however might want to check out the
 semi-official Escape Velocity website at:

 <http://www.escape-velocity.com/>


D.
- --
___________________________________________________________________________
Douglas D.          Computer Support, School of Law, Waikato University, NZ
douglasd@waikato.ac.nz  :  64-7-856 2889 x6258 (ph)  :  64-7-838 4417 (fax)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:32:15 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> At 08:54 PM 3/23/98 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >4. One of the baddies, the Emperor Lucan (Strephon's son) 
> 
> Minor nit.  Lucan was not Strephon's son (that would have been a clear line
> of ascension) but some sort of cousin.
> 

His nephew, actually.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:06:55 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> > At 08:54 PM 3/23/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> > >4. One of the baddies, the Emperor Lucan (Strephon's son)
> >
> > Minor nit.  Lucan was not Strephon's son (that would have been a clear line
> > of ascension) but some sort of cousin.
> >
> 
> His nephew, actually.
> 
> Bruce Johnson

Younger nephew to be precise!  :)

- -- 
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:02:02 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

Anders Backman wrote:

> I started reading your post ready to flinch/hit erase/blink etc to avoid
> any monstrous heretical crackpot lunatic fringyness but nooo.

Hee! Hee! Fooled you, eh? ;->  Generally, my take on Jump Drive is
reasonable standard. I'm in the "injection mass" school, so that brands
me heretic by the "fuse it all!" school, and I didn't get into
stutterjumps, ftl gravitons, and vacuum tube electronic components. And,
of course, I can get behind some *real* heretical hyperspace type drives
for alternate universes.  ;->  For Traveller, though, I stick with a
pretty standard jump drive.

> This was a very good post. Keep more stuff coming. Especially what the
> different crew say to each other during the various phases (I'll use it,
> shure bet).

I'll try to find an old post I sent to my PBEM players that had slang
used by spacers. The slang had been developed in a game, heck almost 20
years ago now, and I don't want my players to *use* it, but to develop
their own.

> One thing though; why do ships pour their displacement mass out the bow?

There are three reasons ships do it that way IMTU. First, they use a
portion of it to form the lens in the mouth of the wormhole. Without the
lens the sensors can't resolve the distant gravitational sources and the
Astrogator can't lock onto the destination. If he can't lock onto the
destination you're going to get a misjump.  Second, the injection mass
forms the "wormhole" in front of the ship and the ship is pulled through
it by a grav pulse. Third, I was sick of putting all the engines in the
rear and wanted to throw in some puller technology to counterbalance the
pusher we already had. ;-> 

BTW, I didn't mention that IMTU jump drives are a refinement of
stl-stutterwarp technology. The stutters displace matter forward by a
short distance instantaniously, with a TIJ (time in jump) measured in
fermo-seconds. However, you can't get pseudo-velocity above about 5% of
c at the TL's players are likely to run across. The injection of mass
changes the dynamic, giving an instantanious displacement of light
years, but with a TIJ of about a week. 

The reason injection mass is 10% of volume because you need to form a
rift large enough to encapsulate the ship and form a tunnel to the
destination. Ten percent, approximately, does it for 1 parsec. Use much
less and you either don't get the rift big enough (leaving part of the
ship behind when you encapsulate the ship), or don't make it to your
destination (causing an unpredictible misjump not a partial transfer).

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:54:16 EST
From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Uniforms - pictures on-line

hello every one...  i have also posted my version of hte Imperium's Unifrom as
well...  here is the URL for it..

http://members.aol.com/rspake2064/impunf.jpg

also for those interested heres my 2300AD Websites URL

http://members.aol.com/rspake2064/2300/


Let me know what you think of them...
Richard

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:50:11 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:

>I downloaded Escape Velocity from download.com the other day (and haven't
>been seen since).

I know the feeling. Sort of a cross between Elite, Traveller, and Asteroids..

>The game plays a lot like some Traveller adventures I've been involved
>with.  The basic game engine (which is really all there is) has a merchant
>going from system to system using a hyperdrive buying cargos low and
>selling high, and frequently getting "special" requests for rush cargos or
>deliveries.
>
>When you have enough money you can upgrade your ship in various ways, hire
>"escorts" to get protection or more cargo space, or, once your ship is a
>bristling with weapons, turn pirate and raid the starlanes.  All of this is
>against the backdrop of a war between the "Confederation" (Earth and core
>worlds) and the "Rebellion" (fringe worlds).

Apparently, there are some editors that would allow you to do a Traveller
clone...

>It's pretty cool, if you like that sort if thing, but it *does* require a
>Mac.  (I'll resist the urge at this point to say "nah nah nee boo boo").

;-)

Dom (Captain of the Merchant Rebel Cruiser Dark Vengeance. Death to the
Confederation!)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:55:32 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

 "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
>>
>>Sounds a lot like Elite.  Can't remember what platform Elite started on
>>but it was ported to the PC about a decade ago.

<snip>

>I believe it started on the C-64, but you probably could have found it
>on all the inexpensive computing platforms of the time.

Nope. It was originally written in the UK on the BBC Model B produced by
Acorn Computing.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:57:37 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

>Minor nit.  Lucan was not Strephon's son (that would have been a clear line
>of ascension) but some sort of cousin.

He was Strephon's nephew.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:30:10 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Military protocol question...

>>US NCOs react much the same according to every ex-service type I've
>>ever talked to. You *don't* call NCO's "Sir!"
>
>US Marines call their Drill Instructors Sir.  Army recruits call them Drill
>Sergeants.

    Only in boot camp do the DI's get called "Sir."  After completing the
crucible my DIs were rather... convincing in getting us to call them by rank
(habits die hard).
    One poor recruit mistakenly called a DI "Drill Sergeant" when I was in
boot.  That really got under their skin and at Ft Knox, I saw why.  I was
harder than most of the Drill Sergeants I saw there (I even saw a Drill
Sergeant,while wearing his smokey, mowing the lawn. I couldn't stop laughing
when I saw that. It'd be a cold day in hell a DI would be mowing the lawn at
MCRD) to say nothing of certain scandals... 
   Marine DIs really pride themselves on being "the best 10%" of the Marine
Corps.

>In the real Army, you call a NCO by his rank.  Sergeants, Staff Sergeants,
>and Sergeants First Class are all just called Sergeant in casual
>situations.  Master Sergeants, First Sergeants, and Sergeants Major are all
>called by their complete ranks.

That's only for the Army.  For a Marine, only Sergeants are called Sergeant.
Call a Staff Sergeant or Gunny "Sergeant" and you're going to wish u didn't.

>Since I'm not a Marine, I don't know what the protocol with regards to
>calling them "Gunny."

Generally, it's only Gunnery Sergeants you know who you'll dare to call Gunny
unless u outrank them, in which case you can pretty much dare it. : )

>A note on "sarge".  Despite Hollywood, most NCOs dislike the term sarge as
>a shorthand version of rank.  I knew one Sergeant who accepted that title.
>First Sergeants are sometimes referred to as Top Sergeant, or Top Dog
>(Kick, wahtever.)

Sometimes Marine First Sergeants take "First Shirt" but some don't like it at
all.  We call Master Sergeants "Top." Master Gunnery Sergeants (E9) sometimes
take either "Top" or "Master Guns," but again only w/ his approval (usually
he'll correct you with the "familiar" version if it he wants it). 

>What NCOs are called behind their backs is another topic, one that I will
>not share with the possibility of children reading this list.

Good point. : )  I'll keep my silence as well. 

Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #307
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 25 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 308



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.
Traveller Timeline
Re: Boeing -- Boeing (fwd)
re: Virus and Vampire fleets.
Re: X-boats (fwd)
Links
Canon (Was: re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd) )
CT LIST?
Re: X-boats
Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
re: Virus and Vampire fleets.
Re: Canon (Was: re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd) )
canon vs. Canon
Grand Unified Jump Theory
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: Heretics Jump Drives
re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:30:12 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Virus and Vampire fleets.

Lucan is Strephon's nephew.  The 2nd son of Strephon's sister Lydia.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:30:13 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Traveller Timeline

>'ve just begun playing Traveller again (T4) after about 12 years
>off!  I'm an old CT baby.  I never got into any of the other
>variations, but from watching the list, and surfing the
>TravellerWebring, the TNE/Virus portion of the timeline interests me.
>I have not been able to find any more info about that part of the
>timeline ... thus, we are stuck around 1110, the era of the CT info
>(which I still own a lot of).

What you want is Survival Margin.  Details the length of the Rebellion in TNS
entries and then goes into some prose about the subject.  the IG website has
some as does Vanya's "Not the IG" website.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 01:51 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Boeing -- Boeing (fwd)

Moin Steve Daniels,

> For those interested who don't know, an Immelman is an air combat manuever in which
> you pull up as if you're starting a loop.

	Not quite right, as long as you are refering to WWI before Richthofen
	when this maneuver was german standard. The Immelman is using the
	"high ground", you need to be at least 500ft above the oponent to
	make it with an Albatros. You'll dive towards the other vessel
	with increasing speed. When you are UNDER the enemy, you stall
	the machine, in the hope that you hit him with a top wingmounted
	machine gun or with an observers machine gun. The increased speed
	(up to 10 times throttle speed) will allow that you are able to
	climb imideately after your attack.

		    v
		   /
	    ___>  /
	   /	 /
	  /	/
	  | X  /
	  \___/

	 X is the english or french airplane (Immelman was a german Pilot)
	 and its within the reach of an observers gun, or a wingmounted
	 gun within the complete attack. The Immelman ends allways a
	 bit lower than it starts, WWI aircrafts before the Camel or
	 the Focker where'nt able to make a looping-like maneuver
	 without prior crash dive. Unlike the looping the Immelman is
	 even posible with most gliders. (some gliders also can make
	 a looping when the dived before) 
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 02:19 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: re: Virus and Vampire fleets.

Moin Sam Thomas,

> A but extreme a measure, I believe. Unless it was humor.

	Only a quater or less humor. You know this kind of humor,
	you can't laugh about without the laughter from tape and
	a sixpacks of beer.

> I play *canon* but just a different version of *canon*, ie MegaTraveller.

	CT/MT/TNE and T4 are canon, GURPS is not!

	MT is also invalidated by GURPS as is MT. Read their f*cking
	news service, nothing about rebellion and hard times. Loren
	came out the shower and deceided that not Strephon is dead
	but Traveller canon !

> Besides Loren's working for the only company right know that has the
> ablility, money, will and resources to publish a Traveller Line(Yes it is
> GURPS). 

	While MT killed Strephon (or is he still held in prison by a
	vampire), Loren and GURPS are killing Traveller.

	I still hope that IG is able to reconfigure, they are not yet closed,
	its still posible to order what they have on stock, and they need to
	sell it pay the authers, the band and other, if I recall correctly.

	I would be happier with IG, BITS and HIWG as the only publishers
	for Traveller. But of course nobody will force me to buy or to play
	GURPS, as nobody will hinder me in mudslicking GURPS.

	BTW: I can thing only about one thing being worse than G:T. When
	WarHamster would buy the trademark.
- --
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 05:12:28 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:37:55 -0500, Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>> Many scouts would fear the downsizing associated with automation.  An
>> internal fight could be going on in the scout service over this issue, with
>> the manned ship proponents seeking to sabotage the flight testing of the
>> unmanned xboats.  Either side might be looking for a band of adventurers.

>  This is by far the greatest explanation for the manned X-boat system
>I've seen
>so far.

This a) doesn't quite work and b) the Xboat network isn't your only problem.

Even if this worked for the Imperium, you still would have to explain why
such things are used for communication in the myriad of worlds that exist
outside of the Imperium (particularly those who aren't big enough to afford
a jump boat network but could afford an automatic message carrier).

Also, beyond the x-boat network, you have to explain why automatic jump
isn't used for _any_ other purpose.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:37:37 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Links

Would someone please send my links to

	1)	 the Traveller web ring.

	2)	cool Traveller web sights.

I finally got my web site up!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:12:09 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Canon (Was: re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd) )

>I play *canon* but just a different version of *canon*, ie MegaTraveller.

There is only one *canon*.  Each of our own Traveller universes will differ
w/o saying but there can be only one *canon.*   The "official" *canon*
storyline, confirmed by Marc, says that the Rebellion and Collapse happen.
Thus anyone wanting to do something *official* set in 1201 will be in the
corpse of the Third Imperium (or an heir, the Regency).   Nothing wrong w/ not
being offical... how many of us are would-be game designers?  
     Where any of our own campaigns differ from Officialdom (tm), they are
"alternate."  Though the whole concept of GURPS Traveller still leaves a bad
taste in my mouth (i don't like GURPS rules and I absolutely abhore the
precedent of the setting), it belongs on this list as much as Virus.  
     The point of the FAQ is to avoid flame wars about the feasability of
Virus.  Mentioning Virus (especially describing it in response to a question
about it) is certainly proper, IMO.  I would just think that noone really has
a write to make a public post then bashing it to the newbie. (if someone wants
to do it via private email, fine).

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:49:19 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: CT LIST?

Is there a CT Mailing List?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 04:24 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: X-boats

Moin David P. Summers,

> Even if this worked for the Imperium, you still would have to explain why
> such things are used for communication in the myriad of worlds that exist
> outside of the Imperium (particularly those who aren't big enough to afford
> a jump boat network but could afford an automatic message carrier).

	Technical true and I think most societies had their Shadusham,
	Kinunir and similar ideas of replacing the unreliable human with
	a reliable computer. And they failed all for the same reason. 

> Also, beyond the x-boat network, you have to explain why automatic jump
> isn't used for _any_ other purpose.

	Think about Kinunir, next think about Virus. Any computer able
	to completely replace a human, has to be real intelligent, and
	as intelligent computers are a freak occurance before the parent
	strain, they are likely to become insane. ;-(

	And even my sandbox handwaving, the Rurevayn pocket va^h^hempire,
	has more than one savety net for preventing, that an insane computer
	controls a ship. The first savety is of course the parent
	strain. Not only that new infects are mixed from two codes (like
	in biology) the new child also has its childhood of 3-4 terms
	before it gains control over anything exept toys.  Second
	the human transponder. Any ship has still to carry at least 3
	humans. A communication officer, a security officer, and a body
	swap.  They also serve as an index that the controling computer
	is still sane, and they have the key to arm/disarm the weapons
	of the ship. (*)

	Any communication between ships or ports is using the communication
	officiers. They have to check that the one on other side of
	"cyberspace" is realy a human. This is similar to the imperial
	transponder, who was intelligent and checked if the other side
	is a transponder. Before a ship is now allowed to visit a
	starport, it has to "body swap" with a ship of system defense.
	So you have to invite somebody from system defense who's looking
	that anything is still fine on your ship (the human crew still
	alive) and you'll send one to look at the SDB for the same. If
	you contact a vessel around Rurevayn not opening a radio chanel
	just for joking around and a check if you are have human humor,
	and later (perhaps hours) asks for bodyswap, but sending an
	imperial transponder, its best to chrash start the jump drive,
	or to ask for a volley of PAD missiles ;-)

	(*) Most vampires also think that uninfected fire controls and
	male humans are more effective because of their known agression.
	As biomeat is also known to be a better trader, and to fullfill
	certain other functions cheaper or more effective, the actual
	crew reduction of most "vampires" is only 1 to 3 quarters compared
	with imperial full automatisation. While Rurevayn does'nt show
	the full automated X-Boat, it shows ships comparable to modern
	see freighters, 3000dt with a human crew of 5 to 9.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:38:58 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

I've been doing contract work at DEC for about 4 months now in their "Alpha"
prototype lab.   I run a single CPU 21164LX (EV-56) on my desk at 600 MHZ
and it is actually faster than a dual Pent II at 300 MHZ.  This is running
NON native applications for the Alpha.  It's really fast!  We are
prototyping the new 21264 CPU (EV-6) and it is a minimum of FOUR times
faster (we only have it clocked out to 400 MHZ at the moment, going to 800
soon) than the 21164 (600 MHZ).  These are the worlds fastest CPU's and if I
hadn't seen them running I wouldn't have believed how fast they they are.

The movie "Titanic" had all of its graphics created on Alpha PC 164's (60+
of them were bought) and that is now 3 year old technology for DEC.

Sorry to digress but computing power is going to see a quantum leap in the
next few months which goes back to our discussions of Traveller concept of
computers in 1977.  I believe that there might have been a gross
miscalculation of where computers would be 3000 years from now.

Thom

- -----Original Message-----
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, March 24, 1998 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity


>> Pete
>>
>> and nah nah nee boo boo, I've got one of each (now if only I could get my
>> hands on a sparcstation!).
>
>
>The newest SPARC station can handle up to 10 CPU's of the "Merced"
>brand.  Ahh, just think of the computing power..:)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:48:51 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

> >Sounds a lot like Elite.  Can't remember what platform Elite started on
> >but it was ported to the PC about a decade ago.
> >
> >Nah nah nee boo boo!
> >
> 
> I believe it started on the C-64, but you probably could have found it 
> on all the inexpensive computing platforms of the time.

Elite was originally on the "BBC Micro" in Great Britain, if my gaming
history is up to snuff.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:47:56 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: re: Virus and Vampire fleets.

At 02:19 AM 3/25/98 +0000, Michael Koehne wrote:
>Moin Sam Thomas,
>
>> A but extreme a measure, I believe. Unless it was humor.
>
>	Only a quater or less humor. You know this kind of humor,
>	you can't laugh about without the laughter from tape and
>	a sixpacks of beer.

What about a few shots of "GoldSchalager(sp)", minutes of the US Senate
Hearings regarding whether or *Billie* did some Unauthorized Porking<G>.

>> I play *canon* but just a different version of *canon*, ie MegaTraveller.
>
>	CT/MT/TNE and T4 are canon, GURPS is not!

Well I disagree 3 of the 4 *canon's* but others will also.<G>

>	MT is also invalidated by GURPS as is MT. Read their f*cking
>	news service, nothing about rebellion and hard times. Loren
>	came out the shower and deceided that not Strephon is dead
>	but Traveller canon !

Well TNE and T4 also invalidated MT *Canon*, but T4 invalidated more MT
*canon* than TNE. 

It was stated from the beginning that GURPS Traveller would not have the
Emperor dead or the *Infamous* much disputed AI(Anally Inverted) Virus
either. But I liked the AI Virus but not for a game *kludge* but as
*interesting* new life form with all of the aspects of a life form. I had
some players that were playing in Campaign by being Agents of the AI Virus,
fighting against the grave robbing, land grabbing, government overthrowing,
Viking styled planet conquerors. It was a most enjoyable campaign. The
players had different levels of cyberwear/biowear to assist them in their
tasks.

>> Besides Loren's working for the only company right know that has the
>> ablility, money, will and resources to publish a Traveller Line(Yes it is
>> GURPS). 
>
>	While MT killed Strephon (or is he still held in prison by a
>	vampire), Loren and GURPS are killing Traveller.

This is like trying to put the blame on one person on the sinking of the
Titanic. The *Killing of Traveller* is best described as a *Comedy of
Errors*. 

One note Strephon was not killed just a *Clone*, the Real Strephon I
believe his passing was not well chronicled in the sources, but that is
more than like a memory lapse on my part.<G>

>	I still hope that IG is able to reconfigure, they are not yet closed,
>	its still posible to order what they have on stock, and they need to
>	sell it pay the authers, the band and other, if I recall correctly.

Well lets see some of the authors they want to less than 50% of the
original *negotiated* price, but are selling a full price!!! Sounds like a
good deal only for IG. 

If the word got out that Traveller from IG was defunct, how many of that
stock would they be able to sell?, and at what price? Not very much and at
a severely *discounted* price.

>	I would be happier with IG, BITS and HIWG as the only publishers
>	for Traveller. But of course nobody will force me to buy or to play
>	GURPS, as nobody will hinder me in mudslicking GURPS.

I would be happier if IG was not publishing anything Traveller, but I was
not asked either.<G>

GURPS is a system that has its flaws, but it is going to be around for a
lot longer than IG will be.
If your are very, very brave/stupid/naive go to the GURPS list and bash it
there. The have some *Stellar* class flamers there, maybe more than here.

>	BTW: I can thing only about one thing being worse than G:T. When
>	WarHamster would buy the trademark.

That would be worst?, but I am not that familar with WarHamster.<G>


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:48:03 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Canon (Was: re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd) )

At 09:12 PM 3/24/98 -0500, TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
>>I play *canon* but just a different version of *canon*, ie MegaTraveller.
>
>There is only one *canon*.  Each of our own Traveller universes will differ
>w/o saying but there can be only one *canon.*   The "official" *canon*
>storyline, confirmed by Marc, says that the Rebellion and Collapse happen.
>Thus anyone wanting to do something *official* set in 1201 will be in the
>corpse of the Third Imperium (or an heir, the Regency).   Nothing wrong w/
not
>being offical... how many of us are would-be game designers?  

I strongly disagree, Traveller 4 has three *canon* ship/vehicle design
systems, most of them not compatible with each other. The way I see it
there is CT Canon, MT Canon, TNE Canon, T4/T4.1 Canon, and soon to be GURPS
Traveller Canon. That makes for 5 versions of *Canon* , not one version. 

As for what Marc said about the future time line of circa 1100/1200, he
will change his mind several times about those developments. Those future
changes will not make the majority here, very happy at all. At the current
time line of products being produced/worked on, it will past the year 2000,
before the time line of 1100/1200 is seen by us.

>     Where any of our own campaigns differ from Officialdom (tm), they are
>"alternate."  Though the whole concept of GURPS Traveller still leaves a bad
>taste in my mouth (i don't like GURPS rules and I absolutely abhore the
>precedent of the setting), it belongs on this list as much as Virus.  

That is why I am currently working on a campaign set in the Astron sector,
be a long time before it gets touched by *canon* stamp.

Remember the AI Virus is your friend, just relax, accept the AI Virus's
Superior Intellect, Wisdom and Logic.<G>

Sinbad Sam

AI(Anally Inverted) Virus Black Curtain Rod Holder
Ambassador At Large, Without Portfolio, For The AI Virus Multitasking
Confederation
User Of the Two Step Binary Method Of Personality Control
Advocate Of Machine-Man Interfaces

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:08:41 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: canon vs. Canon

> From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>
> Even if this worked for the Imperium, you still would have to explain why
> such things are used for communication in the myriad of worlds that exist
> outside of the Imperium (particularly those who aren't big enough to
afford
> a jump boat network but could afford an automatic message carrier).
> 
> Also, beyond the x-boat network, you have to explain why automatic jump
> isn't used for _any_ other purpose.

Back a few months ago, I started a pretty hefty thread when I asked why
people on the list were so conservative when it came to technology.  I was
confused as to why people resisted (or left out) certain concepts in
science so hardcore.  AI was one of those.

What I was really getting at is why create such intricate handwaves as to
why certain technologies were unusable when instead it would be much easier
to just fit them in and change the things that needed changing in the
history and culture of the Imperium.

There really seems to be no reason to stick a person into an Xboat, plain
and simple.  What purpose does the scout in question serve?  What can he
do?  Jump can't be changed once you start it, so you have to do the
astrographic calculations beforehand.  So you've got this guy that sucks up
a little over a week's worth of life support that is so cramped he can't
really do much of anything.

Would the scout's union really fight that hard so that their members could
go through such a hell?  Who would want such a crap job?  Realistically,
the scout's union would probably fight to get rid of such a torture, not
perpetuate it.

Scout astrogators would still have the job of doing the "intuitive"
astrographic work, upload it to the Xboat, and then be able to perform
other jobs for the scout service that make more sense for a human to do. 
Basically, it seems like the human on board does nothing at all.  It has no
effect on adventures (unless you're running an "Xboat Scout" campaign for a
friend who's really into hearing descriptions of a cramped ship's
interior).

So automate the damned things.  The Xboat network is Canon, with a big C. 
That means that the Xboat network is important to a 3I campaign and
shouldn't be changed lest you lose the flavor of Traveller.  That's fine. 
A manned Xboat is canon with a small c.  Someone came up with it (I think
in this case Marc Miller?), it seemed like a good idea at the time, but it
doesn't hold up just 20 years later.  There's nothing wrong with that.  An
unmanned Xboat screws up no other Canon in the Traveller universe.

Free Traders will still be crewed by sentient lifeforms because they need
personal, human contact.  They need to land, talk to brokers, talk to other
merchants, whatever.  Unmanned Xboats don't threaten this Canon because you
still need a human astrogator to do the "intuitive" work that sentients
tend to be good at.  You can still have a human pilot to do the "intuitive"
piloting work, and a human engineer to do the "intuitive" engineering work.
 Scout ships would be crewed by "people" for many of the same reasons.

Maybe some of the big megacorporations do actually use robotic cargo ships.
 Again, this doesn't invalidate any sort of Canon.  Everything else is left
untouched, now, some megacorps use big automated cargo ships.  Free Traders
will still be crewed by humans, Scout ships will still be crewed by humans,
war ships would still be crewed by humans because, yes, there will be times
when that "human" magic will be needed in these types of ships.

This is really a question of canon vs. Canon.  "Canon" is pure and requires
no handwaves.  It makes sense to everyone at the gaming table.  "canon", on
the other hand, is fine, as long as it doesn't require layers and layers of
face-cooling handwaving just to protect a single paragraph in an
out-of-print book.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:17:28 -0600 (CST)
From: jpettit@ix.netcom.com (Joseph Pettit)
Subject: Grand Unified Jump Theory

Grand Unified Jump Theory
Why does it take one week?
Canon states that jump drives don't function well within gravity wells.
My theory is that even outside 100 diameters there is some miniscule gravity from the sun
(otherwise planets would go flying off into space). Velocity in jumpspace is inversely proportional
to gravity. Thus, when you jump, the vast amount of the time is spent in system.  The jump drive
sends you through J-space on a hyperbolic velocity curve which is relatively slow in-system while
infinitely fast in true zero gravity.  So, the vast distance between stars is covered almost instantly
(at almost infinite speed), but it takes about a week to get to that speed and back again.

Why the +/- 1 day?
Planetary alignment.  If your desired destination is on the opposite side of the star, you need to
spend more time in low velocity in-system travel.  If both departure and arrival planets are in line,
you don't have as much low velocity travel.  Implication:  If you know the rotational speed of the
systems you can figure out the actual time rather than rolling it randomly.  Also rapidly jumping
between two systems should produce the same time in jump until the planets move significantly.

What about misjumps?
+/- 2 misjump: Same story but worse/better.
Catastrophic failure: Same story but you drop out of J-space really far away
Aggravated failure (d6 dice parsecs distant):  You screwed the pooch this time.  You lost your
way in J-space and went blasting through J-space blind at near infinite velocity (taking no time).
Fortunately,  enough stellar matter and background gravity has slowed you down.  Now you can
drop out of J-space completely lost.
Implication: Jumping into an empty hex would take half the time. i.e. half a week getting out of  a
system, but no time to re-enter a system gravity well.  However, this is extremely difficult
because you spend ~0 time in ~0 gravity.  Timing is crucial, and forget about rendezvous unless
there's a gravitic beacon.

How is jump fuel used?
Hydrogen is used for its simple structure. The hydrogen is broken down into electrons, positrons
and neutrons.  The Lanthanum grid has the property of breaking loose the positrons from the
protons yeilding spare neutrons.

The electrons are sent through N-space using the electron tunneling effect (handwave) which act
as a guide rail for the ship travelling through J-space.

The positrons surround the ship in a cloud which appears as a flash in N-space when the
photons are released from the positron/neutron decay (technobabble).  Some of the Neutrons
can be shed at the begining of the jump, the rest being absorbed into the Lanthanum grid.  The
more Neutrons shed the more efficient the jump is.  Thus more advanced jump drives dump more
neutrons it can shed at the jump entry.  Remaining neutrons must be 
retained until exit from
jumpspace. A J0 in-system only ship doesn't dump any of its neutrons 
until it leaves J-space
while a J6 ship dumps them all before jump (which explains the 6 parsec 
upper limit on jump
drives).
Implication: Neutron dumps can be detected, indicating a ship has just 
jumped out of system.
Neutron sensors can likewise detect ships entering systems by their 
neutron waste.

The Positron cloud then pulls the ship through the electron tunnel, 
mutually anhilating the
particles as it moves through J-space.


Why so much fuel?
The fuel has to construct a tunnel of electrons capable of holding the 
volume of the ship and
extending the distance travelled.  It also needs an appropriate amount 
of positrons to draw it
through J-space.
Implication: Using unrefined fuel makes malformed tunnels which could 
result in misjumping.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 23:46:19 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

On 03/23/98 at 11:27 PM,  Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca> said:

>Give this a shot for me and correct any misconceptions. 

>Almost every ship has a maneuvre drive generating x number of G's. At any
>time (with enough fuel) the ship can accelerate to a maximum of x G's.
>Sometimes, because of circumstance, the ship will pull more than it's
>rated G's. Any crew member can safely move about at 1G and possibly 2G's,
>but must be 'tied down' at anything above that or get the stuffing knocked
>out of him, and I think I've seen here that 'man' has successfully
>withstood 18+/- G's in rocket sleds (don't quote me on that  cause I don't
>know). My real question is, what would be the number of G's pulled in an
>accelleration that will take you from zero to a speed that will move you
>3.26LY (up to roughly 19.56LY) away in 7+/- days. Just a thought.

Well, that wouldn't be a jump drive. There's no acceleration involved
there, just displacement from one location to another.

I won't ever hazard a guess at the number of g's of acceleration you'd need
to cover a parsec in a week. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 00:05:09 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Heretics Jump Drives

Welcome to the dark side! ;-> 

On 03/24/98 at 09:14 AM,  warmind@juno.com (james a clem) said:

>In the campaign I'm presently putting together, the jump number of the
>drive is indeed the number of parsecs a ship can cover in about a week,
>with one key difference.  A ship in jump can continue to cover that
>distance per week until it decides to drop out of jump.  So a jump one
>tramp freighter can cover six parsecs in six weeks, with only one jump. 

Using 10% of the ship's volume as jump mass?  Or using 60% of the ship's
volume as jump mass?
 
>Now, I know that changes the character of the game without something to
>limit it, so here is the bad news.  Jump space is not as homogenous as
>normal space, in terms of spacial densities, and so distances in jump
>actually vary with time.  One major source of research funding is the
>search for reliable systems and/or maps to take this into account.  At any
>rate, the result is the longer you stay in jump space, the more off course
>you tend to get.  Basically a cumulative mis-jump.  This effect seems to
>be more time related than distance, so the jump 1 freighter travelling 6
>parsecs has more of a chance of being off course than the jump 6 cruiser
>travelling the same path. 

Ok, I've seen that sort of effect in several books. Crews will want to
"pop" out of jump to get their bearings occasionally, right?  

> As for game mechanics, I've expanded navigation to become n-space
>navigation and j-space navigation.  I'm not sure yet how I'll fit those
>into the character creation, comments are much desired and welcome.  

You are going to allow navigation *in* j-space?  If you are doing that, why
don't you just go to a hyperspace, or a subspace system? 

>Once in jump space, a j-space nav check must be made once a week (not including
>the first week)  to make sure everything is ok.  Travel along a well known
>course, say, the Spinward Main, gives a  positive modifier to the task
>roll.  For each week greater than one, a negative modifier is included. 
>Computer programs of known jump courses add a single positive modifier,
>but are hard to come by, being difficult to make, and will cost quite a
>bit.  Getting programs to red zones, and sensitive military sites is even
>harder, if not impossible.  So, the jump 1 freighter will make 5 nav
>checks in six parsecs, while the jump 6 cruiser will make none.  I'd
>suggest that the GM make the check rolls, and not tell the navigators.  If
>theyre crazy enough to try it, let them find out when they drop out that
>theyre 5 parsecs off course.  The effects of failed rolls are cumulative,
>with the first failure causing the ship to drop out in the Oort Cloud of
>the destination, and each subsequent failure then putting the ship 1
>parsec off in a random direction (yes, even backwards).  So our poor tramp
>freighter in jump space, makes no nav check the end of the first week,
>passes his check the second week, passes his check the third week, fails
>the check the fourth week (Oort Cloud), passes the fifth week check, then
>fails the last check, the GM randomly places him in one of the surrounding
>hexes, and the crew proceeds to barbecue the navigator when they drop out
>to find nothing but empty space.  I hope they enough low berths for
>everyone!  This allows players to get to places they might not be able to
>otherwise, with some risk involved. 

Well, I can see it, and it ought to work.

> BTW, jump drives are a set of superconducting rings, which are charged (
>they are also the capacitors ) when a high temperature plasma is blown
>through them, sort of a large MHD generator.  These then discharge,
>warping space to a point where a ship literally falls into jump space. 
>Jump drives are, then, useless as power supplies, as they must charge and
>discharge at a ferocious rate to get the entry into jump space to open. 

You've got a potential problem there.  If you produce giagantic amounts of
energy in bursts, then you could use the same technique to power big energy
weapons the same way...or at least inventive players will probably try it.
;->

>There are no jump bubbles, and two ships in jump have an astronomically
>low chance of finding each other.  Dropping out of j-space is much easier,
>as j-space is essentially a higher energy state of n-space, so the ship is
>like an electron boosted to a higher energy level in an atom, its easy to
>get it to fall back to its original state, so the residual charge in the
>jump drive is all thats needed.  

It really *does* sound like some sort of subspace environment.  Nothing
wrong with that, of course. Sounds like a good plan. Let us know how it
works out.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:04:49 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)

At 09:09 PM 3/24/98, you wrote:
>Moin SD Mooney,
>
>> Gulp! Haven't you read the FAQ (Virus being one of those things to avoid
>> here!).
>
>	If the FAQ is realy saying this, I would vote also to remove
>	Loren and his non canon GURPS junk from this list.

The difference being that Loren and the rest of us can discuss aspects of
GURPS Traveller without it devolving into a screaming flame-fest between
the "Virus is possible and I like it" team in this corner, and the "Let me
list the illogical assumptions" team in the blue trunks.
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #308
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 25 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 309



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #306
Re: Links
Re: Canon (Was: re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd) )
Re: Links
re: Virus and Vampire fleets.
Sea Level
Artwork copyrights
Re: Military protocol question...
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: X-boats (fwd)
re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)
Web ring was - Links
The Heretic Repents was Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: Gravitiational Charge
Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures
Re: Boeing -- Boeing
Re: Virus and Vampire Fleets
Re: Heretics Jump Drives
Re: Heretics Jump Drives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:58:44
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #306

A
>
>Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:20:34 -0500
>From: Chris Jones <Cjones@manhattanassociates.com>
>Subject: RE: Pocket Empires questions
>
>	[->]  I believe that the PE text says that resource trade
>represents buying off of an interstellar commodities market that is
>serviced by free traders and other private distribution systems.  Your
>point is a good one, though.  The need to secure resources has
>frequently been one of the primary motivating forces behind imperialism
>( Japan is an excellent example ).  So perhaps a house rule could be
>added which requires that resources be imported from a world where your
>Empire has at least X level of influence, or you could trade for
>resources with another Empire.

This is one of the rules that PE has that IMO sucks. The reason is that all
those resources have to have a buyer *somewhere*, and that buyer has to get
from there to here. And if they will take resources off us, why wont they
bring finished goods ?

The solution in my book is to only allow resource trade between worlds with
relationship code 7 or better (ie those in a trading relationship), and
every point of resources exported must be match by another world importing
a point of resources.

>	  

>	[->]  Another good point.  How about this: for a world to grow
>to or maintain Pop Code A,
>	you must own/have X amount of influence over one agricultural
>planet.  To grow to/maintain Pop code C, you must have 10 agricultural
>planets.  You must have as many ag planets as planets with pop code A (
>Eg: if my empire has 3 planets with pop code A and 1 with code B, I have
>to maintain at least 13 agricultural worlds. )  If you ever fall below
>the requisite number of ag worlds, there will be negative population
>effects ( and probably negative popularity effects, too).  If your
>Population reaches 9.999 billion and you don't specifically allocate an
>ag. world to supply it, the population doesn't grow.  ( This doesn't
>represent starvation, just rising food prices which lead to rising costs
>of living, which lead people to start families later in life and have
>fewer children.  There may be some popularity effects, though. )
>	   Another possibility: trading for food resources.

Nope, the pop growth system doesnt work like this. The pop growth rules are
one of the most wonderfully subtle rules I have ever seen in a game system.

Imagine a world with a D starport type 7 atmosphere, tech and resources of
8 and infrastructure and population of three - a new colony, on a kinda OK
but not spectacular world. On average, it's pop change factor will be (3.5
+ 8 + 8 + 3 ) / (2 + 1), or 7 - a 6% change in population. The D starport
halves this, so on average, the pop will grow by 3% a year.

Lets fast-forward a hundred years. The world now has a population in the
millions (fac 6), a C starport, a TL of 10 and infrastructure of 9. The pop
change factor is now (3.5 + 10 + 9 + 8) / (5 +1) or 5 - on average, 2%
growth a year. It isnt modified further, because of the C starport.

Now lets fast-forward another century. The world is now at TL 10,
infrastructure 10 and has a population in the hundreds of millions. It's
pop change factor is now (3.5 + 10 + 10 + 8 ) / (7+1) or 4. Pop change
factor is four ... 1% growth. 

Now lets fast forward another century - the world is now TL10,
Infrastructure 10 and population 9. Pop change factor is now (3.5 + 10 + 10
+ 8) / (8+1), or 3. Population growth on average in now zero. Our planet
has reached it's sustainable level of population, given the ruling TL and
infrastructure.

OK. Lets pick another world. Pop A, starport A, TL11, infrastructure 11,
resources 9. On average, it's pop change factor will be (3.5 + 11 + 11 + 9)
/ (9+1), or 3. Population is stable in the tens of millions.

The Long Night rears it's ugly head, and the world gets raided by those
pesky Vargr, who figure that widespread use of nukes will confuse and
demoralise the defenders. World suddenly gets a B starport, TL 10 and
infrastructure of 6.

Pop change factor is now (3.5 + 10 + 6 + 8 ) / (9+1), or 3. Bad years, in
which a 1 or 2 is rolled, will have a factor of 2, which means a loss of 2%
of the population - B starport doubles change in population. Unless the
world fixes it's damaged infrastructure, it will slowly lose population,
until it falls to pop code 9, which will make the dividing factor 9 rather
than 10 and thus stem the decline.

Note the driving factors - the resources, technology and infrastructure of
the world (it's "wealth"), as compared to it's current population.

Personally, I tweak the system by adding a quarter of  the Infrastructure
Atmosphere Modifier to the labour factor - this gives the insidiousness or
otherwise of the local atmosphere a direct effect on population growth, as
opposed to the indirect effect of making infrastructure development slower
and more expensive. It also slows down population growth somewhat, which is
good - otherwise too many worlds gradually drift up to pop 9 or 10.

In short, the pop growth rules are part of what makes Pocket Empires the
great supplement it is.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:07:47 +0100
From: damberg <damberg@hem.passagen.se>
Subject: Re: Links

The Traveller Webring:
http://enterprise.hb.se/~goeran/traveller/webring.html

/goeran

> Would someone please send my links to
>         1)       the Traveller web ring.
>         2)      cool Traveller web sights.
> I finally got my web site up!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:56:29 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Canon (Was: re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd) )

At 09:12 PM 3/24/98 EST, you wrote:

>There is only one *canon*.  Each of our own Traveller universes will differ
>w/o saying but there can be only one *canon.*   The "official" *canon*
>storyline, confirmed by Marc, says that the Rebellion and Collapse happen.
>Thus anyone wanting to do something *official* set in 1201 will be in the
>corpse of the Third Imperium (or an heir, the Regency).   Nothing wrong w/
not being offical... how many of us are would-be game designers?  

Yet I designed a variant where the Virus was just that.  A bioweapon.
Planets that were infected suffered a 75% dieback rate.  World shut
themselves off, destroying all incoming starships.  In 1201, A small
commonality of worlds, with Hiver assitance, developed a vaccine.  The new
era had begun.

When playing in my universe, I'd stick fairly close to TNE canon regarding
the RC, Regency, even the concept of Vampire ships (In this universe they
are Reavers, quasi-religious survivors of the Plague that are determined to
destroy all remaining starships as tools of the devil.  Since they believe
they are doomed to Hell already, they are nasty opponents.)

How canon is this then?  A Dead Imperium, ravaged worlds, but a different
vector for that destruction.

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:01:16 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Links

At 08:37 PM 3/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Would someone please send my links to
>
>	1)	 the Traveller web ring.

Um, you have to register your site with the Web ring.  Last I checked, it
was at Goeran's page.

>	2)	cool Traveller web sights.

>I finally got my web site up!

Nice.  Why don't you give us the URL and will go take a look and decide if
we want to link to you or not?
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:12:02 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: re: Virus and Vampire fleets.

At 02:19 AM 3/25/98, you wrote:
>Moin Sam Thomas,

>> I play *canon* but just a different version of *canon*, ie MegaTraveller.
>
>	CT/MT/TNE and T4 are canon, GURPS is not!
>
>	MT is also invalidated by GURPS as is MT. Read their f*cking
>	news service, nothing about rebellion and hard times. Loren
>	came out the shower and deceided that not Strephon is dead
>	but Traveller canon !

That's right!  And if you *dare* play a Rebellion Era, or New Era game, the
Game Geatapo will hunt you down and grag you off to the Gamer Gulag!  Obey!
Submit!

Look up the word "alternate."  The timeline for G:T is a seperate line from
the line where Strephons clone realizes that he made a career mistake.

>> Besides Loren's working for the only company right know that has the
>> ablility, money, will and resources to publish a Traveller Line(Yes it is
>> GURPS). 
>
>	While MT killed Strephon (or is he still held in prison by a
>	vampire), Loren and GURPS are killing Traveller.

Ah.  This would be by publishing full page ads, running an active website,
and publishing well researched books set in the Classic Era, which remains
by far the most popular era for play.

This is an odd definition of "killing."

>	I still hope that IG is able to reconfigure, they are not yet closed,
>	its still posible to order what they have on stock, and they need to
>	sell it pay the authers, the band and other, if I recall correctly.

I, along with many of the other people suckered into writing for IG, would
be happy if they paid *any* of us without us having to resort to repeated
long distance phone calls, threats of legal action, and invocation of the
Elder Gods!  I have reached the point where my efforts to recover the money
owed me is costing me more than I could ever hope to get.  Steve Jackson
pays his writers well, and on time.  Also, Pyramid magazine is now
accepting articles both for GURPS Traveller *and* any edition of
Traveller.. Classic, Mega, TNE, or T$.

>	I would be happier with IG, BITS and HIWG as the only publishers
>	for Traveller. But of course nobody will force me to buy or to play
>	GURPS, as nobody will hinder me in mudslicking GURPS.

Your right.  But since you have publically declared that you won't buy the
material, and pointed out that BITS is still in the business of producing
Traveller material, where do you get off announcing that SJG is destroying
Traveller?

>	BTW: I can thing only about one thing being worse than G:T. When
>	WarHamster would buy the trademark.

Really?  Imagine the line dying completely.

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "I'm just like anybody else, I want |
|  to be a non-conformist too."       |
|                      -Lenny Bruce   |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:37:24 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Sea Level

>   We know through geological records that it (melting off of at some
>portion of the polar ice caps) has happened at various times in Earth's
>history without any interference from Mankind, it is it possible it will
>happen again despite whatever measure we might take to prevent it.

  If natural mechanisms are going to cause such, it's difficult to see
how we could stop it, even if we identified the synergies involved.
Within a century some control should be possible, if not practical.

>   Land owners in certain sections of the Netherlands and Florida take
>note--your property values may be decreasing sooner than you think....

  Forget 50 or 60 meter rises (I still haven't found figures for the
ice caps), 1 or 2 meters will potentially radically screw some places.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:37:35 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Artwork copyrights

Hello,
  Does anyone know who owns the rights to the cover art of
the Grenadier 25mm Traveller figure boxed sets, and the B&W
box illos or catalog pages for the same as well the RAFM
TNE spaceship/25mm lines?

  Were there other licensed spaceship mini's than those
produced by RAFM for TNE?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:49:21 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Military protocol question...

At 07:30 PM 24/03/98 EST, Gary wrote:
>>>US NCOs react much the same according to every ex-service type I've
>>>ever talked to. You *don't* call NCO's "Sir!"
>>
>>US Marines call their Drill Instructors Sir.  Army recruits call them Drill
>>Sergeants.
>
>    Only in boot camp do the DI's get called "Sir."  After completing the
>crucible my DIs were rather... convincing in getting us to call them by rank
>(habits die hard).
>    One poor recruit mistakenly called a DI "Drill Sergeant" when I was in
>boot.  That really got under their skin and at Ft Knox, I saw why.  I was
>harder than most of the Drill Sergeants I saw there (I even saw a Drill
>Sergeant,while wearing his smokey, mowing the lawn. I couldn't stop laughing
>when I saw that. It'd be a cold day in hell a DI would be mowing the lawn at
>MCRD) to say nothing of certain scandals... 
>   Marine DIs really pride themselves on being "the best 10%" of the Marine
>Corps.
>
>>In the real Army, you call a NCO by his rank.  Sergeants, Staff Sergeants,
>>and Sergeants First Class are all just called Sergeant in casual
>>situations.  Master Sergeants, First Sergeants, and Sergeants Major are all
>>called by their complete ranks.
>
>That's only for the Army.  For a Marine, only Sergeants are called Sergeant.
>Call a Staff Sergeant or Gunny "Sergeant" and you're going to wish u didn't.
>
>>Since I'm not a Marine, I don't know what the protocol with regards to
>>calling them "Gunny."
>
>Generally, it's only Gunnery Sergeants you know who you'll dare to call Gunny
>unless u outrank them, in which case you can pretty much dare it. : )

In the NZ Army our NCO ranks how they're addressed goes something like this:

Private                "Private" or "Private <sirmane>"
Lance Corporal         "Corporal" or "Lance Corporal" if you're of higher
rank (esp. if you're a full Corporal).
Corporal               "Corporal"
Sergeant               "Sergeant" never "Sarge" unless you're on very good
terms, he doesn't mind, and you're both off duty.
Staff Sergeant         "Staff" calling them "Sergeant" is very, very stupid.
WO1                    "Sergeant Major", or "Sarn't Major"
WO2                    "Sir"

Technically only a WO1 who is actually a CSM (Company Sergeant Major)
should be called "Sergeant Major", but custom prevails (besides nobody
knows what else to call them).

BTW I can't recall for certain whether a Sergeant Major is a WO1 or a WO2,
most enlisted men aren't sure either, because it practically never comes up
in conversation as NCOs that close to God are referred to by their
appointments as a rule. For example "the CSM" or "the RSM".


- ----------------------------------------------------------
"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:48:54 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

At 11:46 PM 24/03/98 -0600, Eris wrote:
>
>I won't ever hazard a guess at the number of g's of acceleration you'd need
>to cover a parsec in a week. 
>
Assuming constant acceleration to half way, then turnaround and constant
deacceleration a quick scribble got approx.: 8426 Gs.

Hmmm... what TL would that take - and what TL for the compensators?


- ----------------------------------------------------------
"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:06:39 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>> Many scouts would fear the downsizing associated with automation.  An
>> internal fight could be going on in the scout service over this issue, 
>> with the manned ship proponents seeking to sabotage the flight testing 
>> of the unmanned xboats.  Either side might be looking for a band of 
>> adventurers.

>This a) doesn't quite work and b) the Xboat network isn't your only problem.
>Even if this worked for the Imperium, you still would have to explain why
>such things are used for communication in the myriad of worlds that exist
>outside of the Imperium (particularly those who aren't big enough to afford
>a jump boat network but could afford an automatic message carrier).

>Also, beyond the x-boat network, you have to explain why automatic jump
>isn't used for _any_ other purpose.

My take is that in the Imperium there is a law stating that every ship
going into jump must carry at least one living, sentient pilot. 

Outside the Imperium, whose to say they aren't using automated ships for
some purposes.  The K'Kree are fairly low tech, the Aslan would only use
them for very limited purposes, and automated ships doesn't sound much
like a Zho thing, but the Hivers and some of the Solomani would likely use
this sort of thing a lot. 

However, if you limit jumps ships to a minimum size of 100 Dt, tiny
message torps aren't possible, so you'll almost always have room for a
pilot on any ship.  I'd expect them to be special use items most of the
time.  OTOH, having a normal ship with a robotic pilot might be more
common, especially in Hiver areas, or on Aslan ships w/o the proper gender
balance of crew. 

I don't see anything about my idea which either violates canon, or causes
any problems.  It also makes visits to non-Imperial space more
interesting:  "You mean no one is piloting this ship!" "But we have an
excellent robotic pilot."  "Your trusting *my* life to a *robot*!"... 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:37:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)

kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne) wrote:

>Moin SD Mooney,
>> Gulp! Haven't you read the FAQ (Virus being one of those things to avoid
>> here!).
>	If the FAQ is realy saying this, I would vote also to remove
>	Loren and his non canon GURPS junk from this list.

What the FAQ says is to try and avoid several topics if possible as they
can create a flamefest. Namely Near-C rocks, Feudal Technocracies and
Virus... Probably Pirates and the viability of fighters should be added to
that. However, I haven't seen any of the first three trigger a flame war in
a long time... ;-)

Fundamentally, although I don't play(*) TNE (I have problems with the rule
system, thruster plates and the real viability of Virus) I do find the
setting refreshing and in some ways quite audacious. I felt shocked when I
first read Survival Margin and realised the scope of the Virus' attacks. I
have no objection to it being discussed but anyone writing on it should be
aware of the flame bait possibilities in their posts. And that is what the
FAQ is getting at.

Dom

(*) that doesn't mean I don't own it or think there aren't any good bits in it.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:27:49 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Web ring was - Links

jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com> wrote:

>Would someone please send my links to
>	1)	 the Traveller web ring.

you need to register with the web ring site (server) at :

http://enterprise.hb.se/~goeran/traveller/webring.html

And then add some code to your pages...

>I finally got my web site up!

Go on! Give us a hint at what the URL is then...;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:21:05 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: The Heretic Repents was Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net> wrote:

>Hee! Hee! Fooled you, eh? ;->  Generally, my take on Jump Drive is
>reasonable standard. I'm in the "injection mass" school, so that brands
>me heretic by the "fuse it all!" school,

Hey Eris, welcome back to the fold. Glad to see the repentance there.

Since FFS2 the injection mass stuff is *canon*.

<snigger>

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:16:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gravitiational Charge

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>> >      The interesting bit was that it implied that particles could have a
>> > gravitiational "charge". Positive or negative.
>>
>> Gravitational "charge" is known as "mass".
>
> Is that true? I always thought gravitational charge was known as weight. 

No. "Weight" is the force generated by gravity (or acceleration) acting mass.

> Isn't mass an intrinsic property of matter?

Yes, but so is charge. At the *particle* level. A particle's charge is
just as fixed as it's mass. The only reason most matter appears to be
uncharged it that it tends to consist of equal numbers of positive and
negative charges.

In any case the "basic force law" is:

Force = charge * charge / distance^2

The only "difference" between electrical charge and mass as far as
force laws go is that with electrical charge, *opposit* charges attract
and like charges repel. With mass, *like* masses attract (and there's
speculation about how negative mass would work).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:35:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures

In mail you write:

>>This is only the top of the great graphics file format morass...there
>>really _is_ no such thing as a universal vector graphics format.

What about CGM?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:33:50 +0000
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Boeing -- Boeing

Bloo asked:
> Ob traveller, are there any rules for non-space air combat? Or
>  atmosphere combat with starships both airframe and streamlined?

There are some rules in COACC (for MT).

Regards PLST
<the tagless one>
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:14:50 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Virus and Vampire Fleets

Doug Berry writes:

>>	If the FAQ is realy saying this, I would vote also to remove
>>	Loren and his non canon GURPS junk from this list.
> 
>The difference being that Loren and the rest of us can discuss aspects of
>GURPS Traveller without it devolving into a screaming flame-fest between
>the "Virus is possible and I like it" team in this corner, and the "Let me
>list the illogical assumptions" team in the blue trunks.

Hey! Don't forget the "The transponder bit about the Virus stunk, but
Beserkers (sorry, Vampire Ships) are kinda neat, so let's clean up the
grotty bits and use magic (sorry, psionics) to 'explain' the Virus"
crowd in the purple trunks with the lime-green polka dots! We want a
corner of our own!


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
	"Argel-bargle glub gryf!"
			-- Anonymous

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:35:36 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Heretics Jump Drives

On Wed, 25 Mar 98 00:05:09 -0600 eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) writes:

>Using 10% of the ship's volume as jump mass?  Or using 60% of the 
>ship's
>volume as jump mass?


J-1 uses 10%, time in jump is irrelevant.  The ship basically coasts in
jump space.  (Thats not a very accurate description, but I dont have my
double talk generator up and running yet  :)     )





>Ok, I've seen that sort of effect in several books. Crews will want to
>"pop" out of jump to get their bearings occasionally, right?  


SHHHHHHH!!!   You'll give it away!!  **chuckle**



>
>> As for game mechanics, I've expanded navigation to become n-space
>>navigation and j-space navigation.  I'm not sure yet how I'll fit 
>those
>>into the character creation, comments are much desired and welcome.  
>
>You are going to allow navigation *in* j-space?  If you are doing 
>that, why
>don't you just go to a hyperspace, or a subspace system? 
>

>> BTW, jump drives are a set of superconducting rings, which are 
>charged (
>>they are also the capacitors ) when a high temperature plasma is 
>blown
>>through them, sort of a large MHD generator.
>
>You've got a potential problem there.  If you produce giagantic 
>amounts of
>energy in bursts, then you could use the same technique to power big 
>energy
>weapons the same way...or at least inventive players will probably try 
>it.


Chuckle!  J-drives produce energy, but that energy is used immediately on
a quantum level to put the ship into J-space.  The makeup of the
superconducting components is very unique, very precise, and will open a
jump entry whenever the necessary energy is applied to them.  Hooking
them up to something else, well, the power leads will be pulled into
J-space, at least, and in a fine string of quantum particles.  Providing
less than the necessary energy to the system will not produce anything. 
Something about quantum thresholds (this is why there are no J-2.5
drives.  Integer values only!).  The actual components that open the
entry are suspended in a vacuum bottle, and are not in contact with any
physical part of the ship.  One of the early problems with J-drives was
sudden contact with the container, resulting in the rather violent
reduction of the ship to its quantum level components!!



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

_____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:35:19 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Heretics Jump Drives

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:54:14 -0400 "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
writes:

>
>Ok by "canon rules" (CT and T4 being my choice to fit this term) a 
>ship
>consumes 10% of its tonnage for every parsec it travels.  I think you 
>mean
>to say that your ships consume 10% of their tonnage to achieve 
>jumpspace,
>but use no more than that in spite of the distance travelled in over a 
>week
>(in other words a J1 ship travelling at a "speed" of 1 parsec/week 
>consumes
>10% of its tonnage for fuel, even if it "stays" in jumpspace for 6 
>weeks).
>Please let me know if this is wrong.


Ok, I understood what I wrote, but did'nt think of anyone else being
confused.  My apologies.  J-1 drives use 10% of the ship's tonnage to get
into jump, travelling 1 parsec per week.  J-6 uses 60% of its tonnage to
get to that spacial energy, and so travels 6 parsec per week.  Time spent
in J space doesnt matter.  The drive uses whatever its rating (fuel as a
percentage of ship's tonnage) for each jump.  Just to be clear, a J-6
drive used for a J-1 jump, uses 10% of the tonnage in fuel.


>
>It also concerns me in the extreme examples; a J4 Xboat system could 
>remain
>in jump space just one extra week, cutting message travel times by 
>half or
>more, with fairly little risk (and a sufficiently large network could 
>cover
>that risk in several ways).
>


Good point.  Though I wonder, if X-boats just jump in-system, download
their data to another boat, which then jumps immediately, the savings in
time would be considerably less.  (At least, thats how X-boats work in my
universe)


>>>Will two ships jumping together arrive at the same place at the same
>>>time?

[BIG snip]


>
>Likewise the fleet, when finally confronted, could jump *back* to a
>sufficiently dense area of Zho space and all get recovered in 12 more
>weeks.  So the trip is not one-way by any means (and they leave behind 
>the
>shattered wreck of what was a major industrial world).
>


Quite true.  I'm intending this version of J-drive to spread out the
available universe.  Also, systems are a bit further apart in mine than
canon.   (Then again, so is the background, and most everything else!)


>>
>>The canon background is very good, so I hope no one out there takes 
>all
>>this too hard.  I just can help my self, I like creating my own
>>universes.
>
>If they object, screw em!  Your game, your universe. 

AMEN!

>Some people even use 
>(shudder)
>TNE! 


NO!!!!  (Incredulous look   {:O      )


>
>Just remember, if you decide to publish, or even just share materials with
>the world a few of these things could be "broken" for other campaigns or
>canon rules users.


Oh yes, I dont expect everyone to bow to my version of things!



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

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End of Traveller-digest V1998 #309
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 25 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 310



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Subject: CT LIST?
Re: Virus and Vampire Fleets
GURPS Traveller and Canon (Was: Virus and Vampires...)
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: canon vs. Canon
Re: Sea Level
Re: canon vs. Canon
GURPS Trav killing Trav, NOT! (was Virus and Vampire fleets.)
Booting non-canon junk off the list
Re: Booting non-canon junk off the list
Re: Booting non-canon junk off the list
Re: X-boats (fwd)
A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad
Re: X-boats (fwd)
Re: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad
Re: Links
Re: X-boats

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:32:49 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Subject: CT LIST?

jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com> wrote:
>Is there a CT Mailing List?

    This is it.  The one list to bind them all.
CT, MT, T:TNE, T4, T4.1, and G:T

    It's also the valid place to discuse YPTU (Your Personal Traveller
Universe)

Go to http://www.webring.com/  from there you will find the Traveller Web
Ring and instructions on how to add your site.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:38:24 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Virus and Vampire Fleets

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:14:50 +0100 (MET) Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>Doug Berry writes:
>
>>>	If the FAQ is realy saying this, I would vote also to remove
>>>	Loren and his non canon GURPS junk from this list.
>> 
>>The difference being that Loren and the rest of us can discuss 
>aspects of
>>GURPS Traveller without it devolving into a screaming flame-fest 
>between
>>the "Virus is possible and I like it" team in this corner, and the 
>"Let me
>>list the illogical assumptions" team in the blue trunks.
>
>Hey! Don't forget the "The transponder bit about the Virus stunk, but
>Beserkers (sorry, Vampire Ships) are kinda neat, so let's clean up the
>grotty bits and use magic (sorry, psionics) to 'explain' the Virus"
>crowd in the purple trunks with the lime-green polka dots! We want a
>corner of our own!
>


I agree, this is for a free exchange of ideas.  If you don't like
something, just delete it and go on!


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:37:56 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: GURPS Traveller and Canon (Was: Virus and Vampires...)

Michael Koehne rants:

> 	CT/MT/TNE and T4 are canon, GURPS is not!
> 
> 	MT is also invalidated by GURPS as is MT. Read their f*cking
> 	news service, nothing about rebellion and hard times. Loren
> 	came out the shower and deceided that not Strephon is dead
> 	but Traveller canon !

Michael, the GURPS Traveller universe is going to be something which in
Science fiction circles is known as an alternate universe. In an alternate
universe some or more crucial events differ from the original universe.
Like, and I'm grabbing the example right out of thin air, some accident
that prevents an assasin from killing a crucial historical figure. Some
alternate universes have multiple changes, but among conousseurs it is
considered best if all changes arise from one single, pivotal event.
Nothing that happens in an alternate universe invalidates the history of
another universe. The comparison with the infamous "Dallas" idiocy is
completely unwarranted.

>>Besides Loren's working for the only company right know that has the
>>ablility, money, will and resources to publish a Traveller Line(Yes it is
>>GURPS). 
> 
>	While MT killed Strephon (or is he still held in prison by a
>	vampire), Loren and GURPS are killing Traveller.

If Loren handles things the way I hope he will, GURPS Traveller can only be
an asset to the original Traveller background. Why? Because if the GT
universe is truly an alternate one that dosen't diverge until 132-1116,
then every historical background information provided in GT material must
necessarily be compatible with the Traveller universe. Which means that GT
will be the first material since the MT era that adds to the CT background.
Which means that those of us who started out with CT and never intended to
use the Rebellion anyway will get our first shot of useful background for
a decade. And even those who run a MT or a TNE campaign will be able to
get something out of it, because the history of the two universes will be
identical up to a point.

This only applies if GT makes an effort to stay compatible with the other
Traveller universe, but if anyone has a good chance of doing it, it is
Loren, who has been with the game from the start.

And if he dosen't, why, we can always just ignore it.
 
> 	I would be happier with IG, BITS and HIWG as the only publishers
> 	for Traveller. But of course nobody will force me to buy or to play
> 	GURPS, as nobody will hinder me in mudslicking GURPS.

I think I'll let my .sig answer that one.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:47:26 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

>Hee! Hee! Fooled you, eh? ;->  Generally, my take on Jump Drive is
>reasonable standard. I'm in the "injection mass" school, so that brands
>me heretic by the "fuse it all!" school, and I didn't get into
>stutterjumps, ftl gravitons, and vacuum tube electronic components. And,
>of course, I can get behind some *real* heretical hyperspace type drives
>for alternate universes.  ;->  For Traveller, though, I stick with a
>pretty standard jump drive.

Maybe we could say that this "injection mass" is also sometimes called
"displacement mass" for matter needed to displace the ship into j-space.
This should be the basis for the strange term "displacement ton" that
refers to volume and has generally nothing to do with the wet naval term
displacement.

Others on the lsit have previously solved the problem why jumpfuelis called
fuel - it is because it is the same substance as the p-plant fuel and
landlubbers tend to mix them up. If that is the case then surely spacers
would look down at people that use the term "fuel" when they're actually
talking about injection mass or displacement mass.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:53:28 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

>What I was really getting at is why create such intricate handwaves as to
>why certain technologies were unusable when instead it would be much easier
>to just fit them in and change the things that needed changing in the
>history and culture of the Imperium.
>
>There really seems to be no reason to stick a person into an Xboat, plain
>and simple.  What purpose does the scout in question serve?  What can he
>do?  Jump can't be changed once you start it, so you have to do the
>astrographic calculations beforehand.  So you've got this guy that sucks up
>a little over a week's worth of life support that is so cramped he can't
>really do much of anything.

Maybe you don't own that much Trav material (homemade or bought) so
changing history/culture wouldn't be that much of a problem but for me
everything is better than changing such fundamentals as x-boats,
2d-starmaps etc.

If I wanted to fit in new tech and SF stuff such as nanotech etc I wouldn't
change the Trav background as it would be too much work - rather I would
create a new setting from scratch but then I wouldn't be playing Traveller
anymore as all my rules are homemade.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:55:51 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Sea Level

>  Forget 50 or 60 meter rises (I still haven't found figures for the
>ice caps), 1 or 2 meters will potentially radically screw some places.

PLease note that the melting of the northern icecap will only raise the
sealevel from glaciers on greenland. The part floating around the northpole
will not raise sea levels at all as Archimedes figured out in his bath.

The south pole is a different matter...


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:07:01 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

> Maybe you don't own that much Trav material (homemade or bought) so
> changing history/culture wouldn't be that much of a problem but for me
> everything is better than changing such fundamentals as x-boats,
> 2d-starmaps etc.

I own plenty of Trav materials.  I don't think that I said anything about
destroying Xboats, just changing them.  When all is said and done, the
Xboat routes will function exactly the same with a person in them or not. 
As I said, the Xboat network is Canon (big C), changing it makes the game
something else.  MANNED Xboats are canon (little c), changing them changes
little else in the background.

But tell me.  What else gets changed in the system if you take the person
out of the Xboat?

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:21:30 -0500
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: GURPS Trav killing Trav, NOT! (was Virus and Vampire fleets.)

I must take exception to the recent claim by kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de
(Michael Koehne) that GURPS Traveller (and Loren) are killing Traveller.
The ruleset I use is Megatraveller, it's my favorite (so far) of all the
Trav rulesets.  However, I never run a game in the 'Shattered Imperium'
timeframe, 'cause I just can't stand it.  I usually run games set during
the 'Classic Traveller' period.  I like the Fifth Frontier War period. 
However, if I did run a game set at a later date, I would choose the
'Stephron escaped assasination' timeline.  There'd be enough turmoil
(because of the assasination attempt and subsequent shakeups) to make it
interesting, without the total breakup of the Imperium.

Thus I think SJG's GURPS Traveller is presenting a useful and welcome
alternate timeline for us GMs to use for our game settings, and are
performing a very useful service in extending and keeping alive our
beloved game.  Keep up the good work!

All of this is, of course, just IMHO.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:11:28 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Booting non-canon junk off the list

That one was rich. Yeah, let's kick Loren Wiseman and his non-canon GURPS
stuff off the list.

(How?)

I ask you - what's Loren doing that's so bad? Producing a variant Traveller
seting? How AWFUL! It's not like anyone else on the list was using any
non-canon material... you know.... fiddling about with Jump gates or
altering the way Jump works or anything like that, now is it?


So what's different? Ah. Loren's doing it publically. Successfully. 

Let me tell you about Canon. Kinunir (All hail CT!) had rogue AI computers
and a distinctly repressive Imperium. Later publkications changed that.
Leviathan had jump torpedoes. Then there's the drive from Anninc Nova.
These are Canon sources. Do we use them? No, because the canon has changed.


Heplar thrusters are non-canon. Everybody knows all starships use thrust
plates, It says so in CT (All hail CT).

My point is that Canon has evolved. CHANGED. Many people complained that
TNE was non-canonical in many ways, they even went so far as to say that
they LIKED the stable imperium of CT. Fine. Where's the GURPS setting
again? Should we should instead say: OK. (T4) -CT-MT-TNE. That's canon.
Nothing else can be canon. No variants are allowed. OK. Close down the
list, then. Traveller is dead. 

Why?

Because every game is a variant. Even later publications from GDW
contradict earlier sources. Everything anyone writes is non-canon. So hey,
let's all stop using our imagination to play this game and instead complain
about how minor facts are non-canon.

Loren's Traveller has all the facets of the 'real thing'. It IS the real
thing. No jump gates, FTL radio, no warp drives and wrinkly foreheads....
It's Traveller, and yes it's a variant. A variant that hapens to follow
exisxting canon very closely in all ways but one. A variant that just
happens to be for sale.

THE MT TIMELINE LED INTO THE NEW ERA. RIGHT OR WRONG, IT'S DONE AND GONE.
THIS IS JUST A DIFFERENT (OR IS IT THE SAME?) SETTING FOR THE GAME. A
COUPLE OF EVENTS HAPPENED DIFFERENTLY AND HISTORY HAS TURNED OUT A LITTLE
DIFFERENT. BUT IT'S STILL TRAVELLER.

So: If you like the GURPS background; play it. With or without the GURPS
rules. If not, then play your own variant. But if you want people booted
off the list for canon violations then you're going to be very lonely in
here.

As an aside: By this argument... TNE IS the only setting, because it's
canon. You must play TNE. Only TNE. Everything else is a variant,
non-canon, and not permitted to anyone on this list.



For ~~**'s sake.... 

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:08:30 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Booting non-canon junk off the list

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:11:28 -0000 "MJ Dougherty"
<martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>That one was rich. Yeah, let's kick Loren Wiseman and his non-canon 
>GURPS
>stuff off the list.
>
>(How?)


OK, I can't resist making another comment on this string.  We can take a
lesson from our own canon Traveller background.  Remember the 1st
Imperium?  Those poor Vilani were so damn rigid, they were trashed by an
upstart race called the Solomani.  If we get so rigid with this list,
it'll die as well.  (IMHO, of course)


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:08:30 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Booting non-canon junk off the list

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:11:28 -0000 "MJ Dougherty"
<martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>That one was rich. Yeah, let's kick Loren Wiseman and his non-canon 
>GURPS
>stuff off the list.
>
>(How?)


OK, I can't resist making another comment on this string.  We can take a
lesson from our own canon Traveller background.  Remember the 1st
Imperium?  Those poor Vilani were so damn rigid, they were trashed by an
upstart race called the Solomani.  If we get so rigid with this list,
it'll die as well.  (IMHO, of course)


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:25:56 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Then the assumption I can make here is that you have no one man ships in your
>traveller universe.  You apparently need constant supervision by trained
>personel.
>Assume 8 hours per day max for a human, you'd need at least 3 people.

Ideally. However, there is nothing to stop manning with lower levels of
crew. Automated alarms can be set to alert crew that there is a problem
(but the delay dealing with it could (rarely) be fatal). Passenger ships
and those with cargos would likely maintain a full watch, smaller vessels
may choose to let this slide.


>The jump field ripple problem also appears to have some flaws that don't
>jive with
>the mechanics of the game.  If these ripples did exist, then you'd have to
>make
>multiple tests during the course of a jump.  But you don't, its just one
>test (well
>two, astrogation and ship's engineer).

Not necessarily - the ripples in the field may well be easy to deal with at
the start. I wouldn't introduce them in a situation unless someone had
messed up the jump entry roll. I view them as being more related to
controlling the feed to the hydrogen bubble around the ship.

>It also means that you can affect your jump
>bubble to come out in a different location/time.

I don't see where you're coming from here. IMTU the collapse of the jump
bubble leads to the destruction of the ship. Emergence from J-Space is
governed by other phenomena. If pushed to explain I'd mutter something
about parabolic curves in J-Space/N-Space relations with energy levels that
cause jump precipitation.... someone posted something to this effect a
while ago and I'd try and find the reference. There was also the
interesting posts by Prof Davros (?), which I inadvertantly deleted.

>Don't get me wrong, these torps require alot of hands on work, just not in
>jumpspace.

Fair enough and I have no problem with that at all. I do allow jump
torpedoes etc but there is a risk of a misjump/failure higher than that of
a manned vessel.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:15:00 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad

   Anyone else get the feeling that it's getting a little warm in here?...

   For review let's define terms:

1) Referee's Canon - What passes for the legtimate universe in a
campaign--can include such heretical notions as Klingons, Porky Pig Drive
(aka stutter warp), planets with donuts holes, time travel, parallel
universes, etc.  Totally up to whoever the referee is and what the players
are willing to tolerate.

2) Storyline Canon - The official storyline as developed by GDW from 1977 to
1996, detailing the history of "Known Space" from the period of the Ancients
to the post-Third Imperium era.  Also includes those elements developed by
other licensed publishers (DGP, IG, etc.) that do not directly contradict
GDW's work.

3) Game Mechanics Canon - The official "how to" of Traveller.  Includes some
common themes (jump drive, fusion power, advanced materials [i.e.
superdense], gauss weaponry, etc.) though there are some significant
variations among different versions of the game.  Includes the official task
resolution system (if any), how damage should be rolled, applied, etc.

4) canon - That which is generally accepted as being acceptable or correct
by the majority of Traveller fans or some subset thereof (the people who
frequent this list for example).  That the Third Imperium existed in 1106
would be considered Storyline Canon and canon.  The upper limit on laser
power in FF&S I (and the formula for determining it) is considered canon but
is not Game Mechanics Canon in TNE.  Naturally canon can be cheerfully
ignored in Referee's Canon.

So what the hell is GURPS Traveller?

   GURPS Traveller is an attempt to take a portion of the Storyline Canon
and create a new variant product based in part on the game mechanics of
GURPS and some of the common Game Mechanics themes expressed in Traveller.

   GURPS Traveller is *not* Traveller, per se.  It has been officially
declared non-canon by its own creator.  However, because it does share much
of the Storyline Canon in common with Traveller, there remains the
possibility of dialogue amongst Traveller and GURPS Traveller fans on this
mailing list (for now anyway).  Naturally as the G:T story is developed
beyond 1116, it will have no relevance to followers of the Canon Storyline
after 1116, except as an interesting "what if" excercise.

   I am afraid that what I've seen posted the last couple of days or so to
the list is the beginning of a schism amongst Traveller fans that will
ultimately result in the TNEers (and those who use the MegaTraveller
Rebellion storyline) picking up their heretical D20s (this would not apply
to MTers of course) and going home.  

   Classic Traveller fans of course have *absolutely* no basis for crowing
about the legitmacy of the G:T story line over that "nasty Virus thing Dave
Nilsen imposed on us" (or "Loren's Rebellion"), yet I already sense that
there are those among them who are or are preparing to do that very thing.
Sorry, but in your attempts at reaching for something that will "bring back
the Imperium" (as if it were something tangible that was taken from you as a
child), you are becoming Canon Storyline heretics--the thing that you
supposedly hate the most.

   For TNEers, they perhaps face their greatest challenge--one almost as
great as when GDW went under.  The fact is that Steve Jackson Games is a
powerful game company and Loren's voice gives G:T a certain level of
legitimacy that can't be dismissed readily.  G:T isn't Traveller, it's based
on Traveller--but that still doesn't stop the feeling of betrayal or shield
you from the slings and arrows from those who would rather forget that you
exist.  Just remember that Loren has betrayed no one, and deserves better
than to be told to take his heretical game and go to the 14th level of
whatever GURPS calls Hades (that would be Oklahoma, right?  :-)  ).  Act
with class--more class than those who would try to run *you* off to the 14th
level of whatever because you follow the Storyline Canon to its logical
conclusion.  And stick around TML...you have as much right to be here as
anyone else, because *you* are a *Traveller* fan.

Regards,

Harold

P.S. For an explanation of the subject line see:
http://us.imdb.com/Title?%22Cannon%22+(1971)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:51:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, SD Mooney wrote:

> Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> 
> >Then the assumption I can make here is that you have no one man ships in your
> >traveller universe.  You apparently need constant supervision by trained
> >personel.
> >Assume 8 hours per day max for a human, you'd need at least 3 people.
> 
> Ideally. However, there is nothing to stop manning with lower levels of
> crew. Automated alarms can be set to alert crew that there is a problem
> (but the delay dealing with it could (rarely) be fatal). Passenger ships
> and those with cargos would likely maintain a full watch, smaller vessels
> may choose to let this slide.

Actually, this is how smaller ships (100-200-300 dTons) get away with
small crews. By strict interpretation of the rules _all_ ships need: a
pilot, an astrogator and an engineer, at minimum, plus a gunner if the
ship is armed. So how does that scout do it all by himself? by watching
the telltales and readouts in his cockpit, and making a mad dash into the
engineering areas if necessary.

Note, this does not alter the fact that, most likely, Xboats would be
heavily automated. You want to avoid extending that to larger ships you'll
run into political and other pressures coming to bear.  All that would
have to happen is the slightest _hint_ that a ship was lost due to a
failure of the automation to keep them from being used. After all...a 737
was landed at an airport a while back under the complete control of a
GPS-linked autopilot. I know for sure, we're not going to see fully
automatic unmanned landings soon if ever.

Even the kinds of automation in current cockpits is being _reduced_ not
expanded, because they have found that pilots who are busy _doing_
something, rather than just watching the plane fly itself, are more alert
and have a faster reaction time to emergencies.

You want the handwave? Something utterly irreplaceable and precious is
loaded on a spanking new technologically advanced Airbus Industries xl6700
2000 dTon automated freighter.  It's wonderful, it's economic, it takes
just three people to run it. It vanishes after a jump carrying the 'Mona
Lisa', for example, to a exhibition at Core. 

There will be an immediate hue and cry to outlaw automated ships.

Technologically, we have the ability today to pretty much make a
completely automated airliner. Will we ever see one? Probably not in my
lifetime. Humans are funny that way...they want a human in charge of
things.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:44:40 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad

 
>    For review let's define terms:
 
Always a good starting point!

> 1) Referee's Canon - What passes for the legtimate universe in a
 
Great.

> 2) Storyline Canon - The official storyline as developed by GDW from 1977 to
> 1996, detailing the history of "Known Space" from the period of the Ancients
 
Great--also the most important, IMHO>

> 3) Game Mechanics Canon - The official "how to" of Traveller.  Includes some
 
This one changes with each system. As a result, I would say that
Game mechanics that break Canon #2 above, are broken.

This applies to design rules, as well (which are near and dear to my
heart as many of you know :-)  This means that some #3 canon things
(High Guard springs to mind) might well be broken. Design rules to
make tech that fits traveller history (canon #2).

> 4) canon - That which is generally accepted as being acceptable or correct
> by the majority of Traveller fans or some subset thereof (the people who
> frequent this list for example).  That the Third Imperium existed in 1106
> would be considered Storyline Canon and canon.  The upper limit on laser
> power in FF&S I (and the formula for determining it) is considered canon but
> is not Game Mechanics Canon in TNE.  Naturally canon can be cheerfully
> ignored in Referee's Canon.

The whole laser things is a good example of broken Game Mech canon.
In FFS1 out of the box, lasers were the only weapon that anyone
would ever build since they were far and away better weapons that
anything else (of _any_ size). Story canon for TNE had published
ships with "normal" weapons (no super-lasers), so obviously it was
FFS1 that was broken, the story canon went as expected. This was
fixed in FFS2 (and as house rules for most TNE people) by llimiting
the discharge energy of lasers.
 
As for GURPS Traveller, I am confident that it will be well done
from what I've seen here and other conversations I've had with
involved parties.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:22:15 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Links

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:37:37 -0500 jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
writes:
>Would someone please send my links to
>
>	1)	 the Traveller web ring.
>
>	2)	cool Traveller web sights.
>
>I finally got my web site up!
>


Give me your URL and I'll add it to my pages.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:51:07 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: X-boats

Well, since I'm working the Heretic's Jump Drives string, I'll weigh in
with my 0.02 Cr on automation.  Ships need crew to take care of the
non-jump periods, like landings, takeoffs, etc.  Not to mention cargo
handling, gunnery, and so on.  As far as things like X-boats, though, an
automated drive would be as reasonable as anything else, since these
mostly jump in-system, dump their data, and rendezvous with a tender. 
Easy for any reasonable AI system.  Now of course, if the boat misjumps,
or is presented with some truly difficult problem, like, say an enemy
raider, its toast.  As far as the engineering crews on manned ships, they
still have plenty to do, like maintenance (well we're in jump, pull the
accumulators on turrets 1,3, and 7 and check 'em.)  The idea of jump
flutter (I cant seem to find who wrote about that, sorry :(      )  is
similar to my jump space's quantum fluctuations, causing ships to wander
off course.  For my campaign, I'd say an automated ship must make its
first navigation check at the end of the first week, as opposed to the
second.  I'm not sure (yet) what kind of loss rate this might entail, but
you can be sure the rate will drop with the increase in TL. 



Considering a comment by someone else about the costs of jump torpedoes,
how bout this for a concept.  Limited life-span equipment for short
life-span automated ships (torpedoes?  shrug.) that are intended for only
one, or just a few uses.  Consider the jet engine in the Harpoon missile.
 The turbine blades are cast, rather than milled, and have an operational
lifetime of approximately 15 minutes.  They are **much** cheaper than the
better built engines used in jets, but reliable (for their life-span) but
they will only live for 15 or minutes anyway.  So systems built in these
ships might be built to be reliable, but only for a short time, thus
reducing the costs.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #310
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 25 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 311



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Piracy (was:Welcome to the Traveller Sale List.)
Re: Virus and Vampire Fleets
Re: Booting non-canon junk off the list
March THUDDD Specs
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #306
Maneuver drives to travel a parsec
Automation: Request for Brainstorm
Re: Sea Level
Re: X-boats (fwd)
Re: Piracy (was:Welcome to the Traveller Sale List.)
Re: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad
Re: Artwork copyrights
Re: canon vs. Canon
Re: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad
Re: Links
Imperial ID
Library Entry : The Garushang Agreements

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:46:32 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Piracy (was:Welcome to the Traveller Sale List.)

*****Possible Traveller Adventure Spoilers Below****

>>Can't we discuss Pirates instead ;-)
>
>  Piracy? Did someone say piracy?
>
> Actually, it would work in the later 3I if they were
>all secretly licensed by the Navy in some form, which
>would explain why they don't chuck people out airlocks
>or take ships instead of just the cargo - the documents
>needed are much more expensive.
>
>  Of course, once the Rebellion starts, the Navy sells
>more permits to pay for more BatRons, and thus the whole
>MT situation arise, while giving the appearance of being
>an organic mechanism involving attrition and economics.
>
>  Damn, the background just gets more sophisticated as
>you analyze it thoroughly, don't it?





While running the Traveller Adventure, I found a bit of "piracy" in the
form of the Tradewar between Oberlindes and Tukera/Akerut.  I'm finding it
kinda hard to justify to the players that the Imperial government has
agreed to "look the other way" while the two trading companies batter each
other to bits in the Aramis subsector.

Ah well, whatever it takes for a good romping adventure.

Anyway, I plan to outfit the characters with a "letter of marque" for
tradewar, plus there will be an equivalent of the Geneva Convention (The
Shuudusham Accords) which applies to treatment of prisoners and disabled
vessels, prizes, captured cargos belonging to a third party, etc.

Geez, I better get started on this stuff, we're playing tomorrow night.

Pete


                       Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:10:44 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Virus and Vampire Fleets

At 04:14 PM 3/25/98 +0100, Hans wrote:
>Doug Berry writes:

>>The difference being that Loren and the rest of us can discuss aspects of
>>GURPS Traveller without it devolving into a screaming flame-fest between
>>the "Virus is possible and I like it" team in this corner, and the "Let me
>>list the illogical assumptions" team in the blue trunks.
>
>Hey! Don't forget the "The transponder bit about the Virus stunk, but
>Beserkers (sorry, Vampire Ships) are kinda neat, so let's clean up the
>grotty bits and use magic (sorry, psionics) to 'explain' the Virus"
>crowd in the purple trunks with the lime-green polka dots! We want a
>corner of our own!

Sure!  It's right through this door.. see? the nice, padded corner..
<SLAM!> <bolt> <weld> <scurry>

Well, that's taken care of...
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:04:30 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Booting non-canon junk off the list

At 07:11 AM 3/25/98 -0000, you wrote:

>Let me tell you about Canon. Kinunir (All hail CT!) had rogue AI computers
>and a distinctly repressive Imperium. Later publkications changed that.
>Leviathan had jump torpedoes. Then there's the drive from Anninc Nova.
>These are Canon sources. Do we use them? No, because the canon has changed.

Also, Canonically, The presence of *FOUR* 1200-ton Kinunir battlecruiser
was enough to keep the "Barbarians" (later known as the Zhodani) at bay..
Sez so right in Adventure 1.  Of course, High Guard changed all that and
real BC's balloned to 80-90,000 tons.


- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:28:11 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: March THUDDD Specs

Does anyone know, have the latest THUDDD entry specs been released yet? 
I'm itching to put my new FF&S2 to good use!!



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:27:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #306

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Ian or Katts wrote:

> >Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:20:34 -0500
> >From: Chris Jones <Cjones@manhattanassociates.com>
> >Subject: RE: Pocket Empires questions

[snip comments] Thanks for your comments, Chris.  I've been off the list
for a couple of days. 

> This is one of the rules that PE has that IMO sucks. The reason is that all
> those resources have to have a buyer *somewhere*, and that buyer has to get
> from there to here. And if they will take resources off us, why wont they
> bring finished goods ?
> 
> The solution in my book is to only allow resource trade between worlds with
> relationship code 7 or better (ie those in a trading relationship), and
> every point of resources exported must be match by another world importing
> a point of resources.

I agree with this, but I think that implementation would have to wait for
a computer simulation.  Too much bookkeeping, exponential complexity -- I
can visualize an iterative algorithm that figures out the dispersal of
resources between parter worlds using distance and cost formulae together
with political priorities... ergh. :)

I got very nice private replies from Joe Walsh and Stuart Dollar about
this.  They also agree with the point in principle; the commodities market
is a concession to playability and the limited time they had to produce
the book in. 

> >	[->]  Another good point.  How about this: for a world to grow
> >to or maintain Pop Code A,
> >	you must own/have X amount of influence over one agricultural
> >planet.  To grow to/maintain Pop code C, you must have 10 agricultural
> >planets.  You must have as many ag planets as planets with pop code A (
> >Eg: if my empire has 3 planets with pop code A and 1 with code B, I have
> >to maintain at least 13 agricultural worlds. )  If you ever fall below
> >the requisite number of ag worlds, there will be negative population
> >effects ( and probably negative popularity effects, too).  If your
> >Population reaches 9.999 billion and you don't specifically allocate an
> >ag. world to supply it, the population doesn't grow.  ( This doesn't
> >represent starvation, just rising food prices which lead to rising costs
> >of living, which lead people to start families later in life and have
> >fewer children.  There may be some popularity effects, though. )
> >	   Another possibility: trading for food resources.

I never even considered this dimension, but now that I do, I think that
for reasons of playability it should be glossed over, unless I'm writing a
software simulation.  It's a good idea, though, in general, to model
resources by commodity type (food, metals, etc.).

> Nope, the pop growth system doesnt work like this. The pop growth rules are
> one of the most wonderfully subtle rules I have ever seen in a game system.

I agree that the system is good (Stu already convinced me, but your
numbers below are nice), but I think that the upper bound on population is
too high. 

> Imagine a world with a D starport type 7 atmosphere, tech and resources of
> 8 and infrastructure and population of three - a new colony, on a kinda OK
> but not spectacular world. On average, it's pop change factor will be (3.5
> + 8 + 8 + 3 ) / (2 + 1), or 7 - a 6% change in population. The D starport
> halves this, so on average, the pop will grow by 3% a year.
> 
> Lets fast-forward a hundred years. The world now has a population in the
> millions (fac 6), a C starport, a TL of 10 and infrastructure of 9. The pop
> change factor is now (3.5 + 10 + 9 + 8) / (5 +1) or 5 - on average, 2%
> growth a year. It isnt modified further, because of the C starport.
> 
> Now lets fast-forward another century. The world is now at TL 10,
> infrastructure 10 and has a population in the hundreds of millions. It's
> pop change factor is now (3.5 + 10 + 10 + 8 ) / (7+1) or 4. Pop change
> factor is four ... 1% growth. 
> 
> Now lets fast forward another century - the world is now TL10,
> Infrastructure 10 and population 9. Pop change factor is now (3.5 + 10 + 10
> + 8) / (8+1), or 3. Population growth on average in now zero. Our planet
> has reached it's sustainable level of population, given the ruling TL and
> infrastructure.
> 
> OK. Lets pick another world. Pop A, starport A, TL11, infrastructure 11,
> resources 9. On average, it's pop change factor will be (3.5 + 11 + 11 + 9)
> / (9+1), or 3. Population is stable in the tens of millions.

Tens of billions.  :)

Your other numbers above were intermediate sized planets, for which the
system works very well.  At the upper bound, though, the system starts to
break down.  Take your planet here, add one TL and 6 Resources, and you've
got Sylea as described on page 36, which will hit hundreds of billions
(Pop code B) before it stops growing.  (3.5 + 12 + 12 + 15) / (9 + 1) =
4.25 = 1% population growth; 42.5 / (10 + 1) = 3.86 = 0% growth.

What happens when poor Sylea hits TL 15 (and Infrastructure 15) with a Pop
code of B?  That formula becomes (3.5 + 15 + 15 + 15) / (10 + 1) = 4.4 =
1% population growth.  Trillions of people.  Ouch.

> The Long Night rears it's ugly head, and the world gets raided by those
> pesky Vargr, who figure that widespread use of nukes will confuse and
> demoralise the defenders. World suddenly gets a B starport, TL 10 and
> infrastructure of 6.
> 
> Pop change factor is now (3.5 + 10 + 6 + 8 ) / (9+1), or 3. Bad years, in
> which a 1 or 2 is rolled, will have a factor of 2, which means a loss of 2%
> of the population - B starport doubles change in population. Unless the
> world fixes it's damaged infrastructure, it will slowly lose population,
> until it falls to pop code 9, which will make the dividing factor 9 rather
> than 10 and thus stem the decline.
> 
> Note the driving factors - the resources, technology and infrastructure of
> the world (it's "wealth"), as compared to it's current population.

Yes, it really does work well most of the time.  Stu explained to me that
it is actually a model of migration, rather than birth/death rate, which
apparently remains fairly static and was left out of the model.  Since we
are only interested in cases were interstellar migration is possible, the
system works quite well, except at the upper bound.

> Personally, I tweak the system by adding a quarter of  the Infrastructure
> Atmosphere Modifier to the labour factor - this gives the insidiousness or
> otherwise of the local atmosphere a direct effect on population growth, as
> opposed to the indirect effect of making infrastructure development slower
> and more expensive. It also slows down population growth somewhat, which is
> good - otherwise too many worlds gradually drift up to pop 9 or 10.

Now there's an idea!  Unfortunately, Sylea's atmosphere is 8 so it will
still end up with trillions of people living on it (it has less surface
area than Terra, too).  Still, you might be on to something here. 

I had thought maybe a table indexed by planetary size and Infrastructure
could specify an upper bound on the population that a planet could support
(since Infrastructure is already limited by Resources and TL, the
influence of those factors is already felt).  I made a spreadsheet based
on some real-world data that Joe sent me, but I need to do more research:
Earth at uniform TL 7 should be capable of supporting the population
density of China or India over all of its arable surface.  My results were
too low at TL 7 and too high at TL 15.

But perhaps also, you *never* (or almost never) want a planet to reach pop
code B (which most formulas I can think of will allow in one way or
another), so when it hits pop code A, start applying modifiers to the die
roll in such a way that the population averages out to zero growth.

We also discussed a progression of die modifiers, based on consecutive or
total turns of "overgrowth", which would be reduced when the population
shrank.  At the moment I'm thinking that might be the best way.  When a
planet hits pop code B, it will be the result of so much overgrowth that a
lot of shrinkage must follow before the die modifier goes down again.  I
still need to figure out an upper bound to declare "overgrowth" at, though
(10 billion is too low). 

> In short, the pop growth rules are part of what makes Pocket Empires the
> great supplement it is.

I agree.  Thanks for your reply, Ian.


Clark


- --
"Remember, if you see a flash:  It's Duck!  And Cover!"

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 1998 15:27 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec

I think we calculated that a ship with 10G (or 15G?) engines
could travel a parsec in 42 days or so.  I don't remember if
we worried about c or not.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Mar 1998 15:38 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Automation: Request for Brainstorm

Request for Brainstorm

I need brainstorm ideas as to why ships _need_ a crew
for such things as piloting, astrogation, sensors,
comms, and engineering.

Oh boy, when it rains, it pours.  Just today two players
confronted me over starship automation, starting with the
Xboat automation question and moving to "normal" ship
automation.

Even today ships can be fully automated, and often the
crew just sit and scratch themselves while the computers
do all the work.

"So why do spaceships need a pilot and sensors guy?
Why do starships need an astrogator?  Why do they need any
crew at all?"

I had to agree to all their premises, but they were trying
to use that to box me into allowing their ships to have full
automation.  I said no, because it changes the nature of
the game.  Thus one captain can travel almost as a passenger
in his ship, and needs only a token crew or just a Jack-of-
all-Trades dude, in case of emergency.  Or worse, if the
astrogator were to be eaten by local cannibals, no problem,
the ship's computer can pinch-hit for him.

No way.  This is not how I envisioned things at all.  Just
because I usually disregard task rolls for skilled crew
doesn't mean the player's skills are unimportant.  I don't
LIKE it.  Why?  Well, I guess it changes the nature of the
game so much, it washes off some of the color.

What are the issues here?

What parts of the system are non-automatable?

Are ship components separated?

Is there in-jump maintenance?
   -are there jumpgrid stability issues?

Astrogator : fiddles with the flight plans?
             station-keeping tasks in jump?
Pilot      : fiddles with the maneuver controls + jump field?
Engineer   : fiddles with the drives?
Sensor     : ?
Captain    : fiddles with the crew's minds?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:57:44 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Sea Level

>>  Forget 50 or 60 meter rises (I still haven't found figures for the
>>ice caps), 1 or 2 meters will potentially radically screw some places.
>
>PLease note that the melting of the northern icecap will only raise the
>sealevel from glaciers on greenland. The part floating around the northpole
>will not raise sea levels at all as Archimedes figured out in his bath.

  You mean ice floats!? Damn, and I thought the Titanic was a fluke :)

>The south pole is a different matter...

  Well, it is 90% of the ice available.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:41:37 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:06:39 -0800 (PST), "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
>>This a) doesn't quite work and b) the Xboat network isn't your only problem.
>>Even if this worked for the Imperium, you still would have to explain why
>>such things are used for communication in the myriad of worlds that exist
>>outside of the Imperium (particularly those who aren't big enough to afford
>>a jump boat network but could afford an automatic message carrier).

>>Also, beyond the x-boat network, you have to explain why automatic jump
>>isn't used for _any_ other purpose.

>My take is that in the Imperium there is a law stating that every ship
>going into jump must carry at least one living, sentient pilot.

>Outside the Imperium, whose to say they aren't using automated ships for
>some purposes.

The problem is then you have to swallow that the Imperium was the
only entity using automatic ships, but this just happened to never
warrant even mention, even in border areas (or in supplements
dealing with Vargr and other places outside the imperium).

It also runs into the objection that I wan't PC's to have to
handle things, not sit back and let a computer do it....

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:09:47 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Piracy (was:Welcome to the Traveller Sale List.)

Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> 
> *****Possible Traveller Adventure Spoilers Below****
> 
> >>Can't we discuss Pirates instead ;-)
> >
> >  Piracy? Did someone say piracy?
> >
> > Actually, it would work in the later 3I if they were
> >all secretly licensed by the Navy in some form, which
> >would explain why they don't chuck people out airlocks
> >or take ships instead of just the cargo - the documents
> >needed are much more expensive.
> >
> 
> While running the Traveller Adventure, I found a bit of "piracy" in the
> form of the Tradewar between Oberlindes and Tukera/Akerut.  I'm finding it
> kinda hard to justify to the players that the Imperial government has
> agreed to "look the other way" while the two trading companies batter each
> other to bits in the Aramis subsector.
> 
> Ah well, whatever it takes for a good romping adventure.
> 
> Anyway, I plan to outfit the characters with a "letter of marque" for
> tradewar, plus there will be an equivalent of the Geneva Convention (The
> Shuudusham Accords) which applies to treatment of prisoners and disabled
> vessels, prizes, captured cargos belonging to a third party, etc.
 

Form IM25-01 'Notice of Grievence' is filed with the Duke/Marquis of the
subsector(s), and a 90 day waiting/cooling off period commences.  During this
time, 2 meetings with Imperial officials are required by responsible members of
each affected corporation.  Also during this time, the area of conflict is
defined, and a 'Notice to Travellers' must be distributed (at the grieving
parties cost) to all affected starports.

At the end of the waiting period, if the cause for grievence still exists, all
parties involved will be issued authorization codes for Letters of Marque (for
privateers) and Bonds (for mercenary companies).

Ship's bearing letters of Marque must register with the SPA upon arrival at the
starport, and must ensure that corporate action warnings have been published
within the past 90 days.  Corporate-flag ships may be engaged without warning,
but simultaneous with the engagement there must be a broadcast by the ship(s)
initiating hostilities consisting of at least their Marque authorization code,
ship's registry, and a steer clear warning to other shipping in the area. 
Independant merchants who may be carrying Corporate personnel and/or cargo must
be given a minimum of a single warning and the opportunity to answer within
reasonable time.  The warning must consist of the Marque authorization code,
ship's registry and reference the corporate action occurring.  Firing on
independant merchants is discouraged.  Independant merchants may, provided that
Jump Gear and Fire Control Systems are not activated, delay to verify the
legitimacy of the Privateer through the SPA.  Intervention of the SPA or System
Defence Forces will constitute and immediate 'Cease Fire'.

Cargo and passengers of conflicting corporations must be declared as such on
ship's manifests, and filed with a 'Acknowledgement of Responsibility' form
IM25-20 signed by the ship's purser and/or Captain.  Imperial limits on
passenger/cargo fees are not applicable in this case.

- -- 
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:16:48 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad

Whenever I refer to Canon, i'm referring to "Storyline Canon."  There is only
one Storyline *Canon* 

>> 3) Game Mechanics Canon - The official "how to" of Traveller.  Includes
some
> 
>This one changes with each system. As a result, I would say that
>
>Game mechanics that break Canon #2 above, are broken.
>This applies to design rules, as well (which are near and dear to my
>heart as many of you know :-)  This means that some #3 canon things
>(High Guard springs to mind) might well be broken. Design rules to
>make tech that fits traveller history (canon #2).

   I wouldn't necessarily think so.  Jump torps for example...  3 out of 4
versions of Traveller support exceptions to the 100dt minimum.  CT and T4
they're in the cracks and it's explicit in FFS.  I'd be surprised if there
wasn't an MT exception lurking around somewhere, too.  J- Torps don't violate
"Storyline Canon" since the 3I uses the Xboat network (why is the interesting
question... maybe J-torps have a propensity for misjump and/or destruction...
maybe it's a power game and/or psychohistory project... maybe it's a
manipulation by the Hivers, Templars, whatever...)

>The whole laser things is a good example of broken Game Mech canon.
>In FFS1 out of the box, lasers were the only weapon that anyone
>would ever build since they were far and away better weapons that
>anything else (of _any_ size). Story canon for TNE had published

   I've always designed ships w/ the tl*50 limit on lasers but I've gotten to
thinking about it.   Using that rules mod, there's no reason to create laser
bays.  The pure volume of bays are only needed when there's a very high
discharge energy.  Besides... do small ships use anything other than lasers
(including det lasers in here).  Only the larger ships have the space for
spinal mounts.  What else do the large ships use?  Missle bays, spinal mounts
and... lasers.  
   
>ships with "normal" weapons (no super-lasers), so obviously it was
>FFS1 that was broken, the story canon went as expected. This was
>fixed in FFS2 (and as house rules for most TNE people) by llimiting
>the discharge energy of lasers.

Well Dave Nilsen said that almost all of the published designs were compromise
updates of old designs and that he wasn't satisfied with them at all.  The
Regency Starship Guide was going to take full advantage of the rules in FF&S. 
(x-ray lasers, etc etc). 

>As for GURPS Traveller, I am confident that it will be well done
>from what I've seen here and other conversations I've had with
>involved parties.

Has something with substance been posted to this list about G:T?  All i've
seen in the various debate about it, but nothing useful.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:16:45 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Artwork copyrights

>Hello,
>  Does anyone know who owns the rights to the cover art of
>the Grenadier 25mm Traveller figure boxed sets, and the B&W
>box illos or catalog pages for the same as well the RAFM
>TNE spaceship/25mm lines?

RAFM still has a small stock of them.  They also had several figures that
weren't released to the general public...  

>  Were there other licensed spaceship mini's than those
>produced by RAFM for TNE?

Not that I know of.  Galoob Micromachines would be pretty  neat...  especially
if Coalition Clippers could be done w/ interchangable modules.  lol  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:32:55 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:08:41 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>

>> From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>> Even if this worked for the Imperium, you still would have to explain why
>> such things are used for communication in the myriad of worlds that exist
>> outside of the Imperium (particularly those who aren't big enough to
>afford
>> a jump boat network but could afford an automatic message carrier).
>>
>> Also, beyond the x-boat network, you have to explain why automatic jump
>> isn't used for _any_ other purpose.

>Back a few months ago, I started a pretty hefty thread when I asked why
>people on the list were so conservative when it came to technology.  I was
>confused as to why people resisted (or left out) certain concepts in
>science so hardcore.  AI was one of those.
>
>What I was really getting at is why create such intricate handwaves as to
>why certain technologies were unusable when instead it would be much easier
>to just fit them in and change the things that needed changing in the
>history and culture of the Imperium.

Well, I can't speak generally.  But communications limitations is one of
the founding principles of the background.  To change this doesn't
involve tweaking the background, it inolves either scrapping it
or putting in obvious kludges.

As to the role of humans more generally, to me it is a roleplaying
issue.  I would rather GM and play a game where your PC does stuff
rather than one where he/she sits back and lets a computer do it.
That is why I don't hand wave.  I simply tell my players that
PC participation is simply a genre convention.

>Free Traders will still be crewed by sentient lifeforms because they need
>personal, human contact.  They need to land, talk to brokers, talk to other
>merchants, whatever.

Not really.  They can be picked up at arrival by humans.  They don't
don't need to support them, doing nothing, for a week in jumps
space.  Instead you have crews at each end that can handle landing
and taking off of some multiple number of ships.

>Maybe some of the big megacorporations do actually use robotic cargo ships.
> Again, this doesn't invalidate any sort of Canon.

Except that suddenly robotic ships that PCs have never seen before
are suddenly all over the place.


____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:34:37 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad

Merrick Burkhardt writes:

>As for GURPS Traveller, I am confident that it will be well done
>from what I've seen here and other conversations I've had with
>involved parties.

   Good point, and I hasten to add, I don't question the *quality* of GURPS:
Traveller for a minute--it will be excellent.  I do worry however that G:T
will serve as something that acts as a devisive influence among Traveller
fans--afterall, if the only thing keeping us together now is the Storyline
Canon (whether your campaign is set after 1116, or 1130 or not), what's left?

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:20:25 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Links

Speaking of links, the Bureau of Starship, Safety, Heath, and Transit
Standards has just published a web page of its own. It is a little sparse
right now, but whimsical just the same.

Follow this link and see for yourselves.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/Traveller/BSSmain.htm

Comments are welcome, but please direct comments to me my personal email
address. 

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:12:42 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Imperial ID

Has anyone tried to create a design for an Imperial passport c. Milieu
Zero? I have some ideas, but I would like to compare notes. I do own copy
of Supplement 12 'Forms and Charts', but it was of limited utility. 

What data would most likely be printed on the face?

My thoughts are:
Name, Home world, gender, hair, height , weight, Date-of-birth, ID#, and
expiration date.

Any ideas?

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:01:50 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Library Entry : The Garushang Agreements

When in the course of events it becomes necessary for two trading
companiues to resolve a dispute, and for various reasons the usual methods
are either unusable or not preferable, they may resort to conducting a
"Trade War" with another company.

Officially, the Imperial Government says that any such activity is illegal
and punishable by the usual fines, imprisonment, etc. that accompany the
various activities surrounding such a campaign.  Unofficially, they know
that their power to do anything about an ongoing tradewar is not great, and
in 866, after a tradewar between rival megacorporations in the Corridor
sector that resulted in millions of civilian lives lost, they laid out the
Garushang Agreements (named for a major city on a planet in the Corridor
Sector).

The Tenants of the agreement are not signed.  Instead both sides are
expected to follow these guidelines or face the wrath of a displeased
Imperial Government who will do all they can to stop a company known to
have violated the agreement, up to and including nameing corporate leaders
Outlaws of the Imperium, hunted on every one of the 10,000 worlds for the
high bounties associated with such individuals (often collected from
forensic evidence gather form the corpse of the Outlaw).  Typically, any
vessel on either side will have a copy of the agreement, along with a
letter of Marque (see below) on board to indicate they will abide by the
terms.

These are the main points;

1). No participant will put any uninvolved population at risk (with the
possible exception of passengers), or cause a major disruption in the
economic capability of any single world or region.  No use will be made of
nuclear impact weapons, persistent lethal chemical weapons, or lethal or
permanently debilitating biological weapons.  Non-planetary use of laser
detonation nuclear warheads is a specific exception to this rule.

2). Attacks and espionage will be limited to the companies involved and
will take all reasonable precautions to limit collateral damage or loss of
sentient life.  Along the same theme, no individual shall be specifically
targeted for assassination or elimination.

3). In the event of spaceborne combat, no ship which has indicated its
surrender will be fired apon, nor shall a ship after indicating its
surrender fire apon another ship after striking.  All involved vessels
shall make every reasonable effort to rescue other beings of either group
involved in the dispute.  Proper medical care must be sought for the
injured, or cold sleep facilities provided.

4).  Prisoners shall not be mistreated, tortured, or deprived of reasonable
health care, shelter, sustinence, or protection.  Prisoners shall be
repatriated under bond at the first safe opportunity, within a reasonable
time period.  Prisoners may not be required to work for their captors,
except when such work (such as emergency repairs to a ship) are required to
aid survival.  Prisoners may not be ransomed or sold into slavery.

5).  Passengers and consignors of cargo must be warned when a known
tradewar exists involving the shipping agent.  Insurance coverage for
tradewar losses must be negotiated seperately from the usual losses.
Piracy insurance does not cover losses due to tradewar actions by properly
authorized privateers.

6).  Any vessel specifically assigned the task of hijacking an opponent's
shipping or attaching its facilities shall carry a paper and electronic
letter of Marque authorizing such action by the company leadership.  This
letter must reiterate these agreements and is signed by the captain of any
such vessel to indicate he, she or it agrees to the contract.  It shall be
transmitted to any vessel under threat on request.

7).  When engaging another vessel, proper opportunity shall be given to
allow the opponent vessel to surrender prior to combat being joined.
Vessels and installations which are defenseless shall not be fired apon
until personnel can evacuate or be evacuated, unless such personnel refuse
to evacuate.

8).  When capturing a vessel in a declared tradewar, all rights to salvage
or ownership pass to the capturing company, who will share out the prize
with the capturing crew as they see fit.  If there is a dispute over the
disposition of a vessel declared a prize, a prize commission shalll be
convened consisting of two representatives from each company, two members
of the local nobility of the rank of knight or higher, chosen by the
leading subsector noble, and two neutral parties agreed to by the companies
involved.  Decisions of the prize committee are made by consensus, and are
final.  In the event of a deadlock a new prize commission will be formed
with all new members.

9).  [This section edited for brevity] ...Such penalties as are iterated
below shall be applied by the Imperial Government for violations of these
agreements.  Individuals acting without the approval of their coroporate
superiors, conducting defined Crimes Against Sentient Life... [Planetary
Destruction, Assassination Attempts, Criminal Neglect of Prisoners, among
other crimes] ...may be declared Outlaws of the Imperium and may face
penalties up to and including death by beheading or other means.[...]

[...]When, in the course of acting in accordance with their superiors'
instructions, individuals violate the rules iterated above, they will be
held accountable for their actions in a manner equal to their superiors who
issued such orders, i.e. declared Outlaw and hunted across the Imperium.
[specific crimes and penalties edited for brevity].


                       Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #311
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 25 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 312



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Harold, It's Getting Warmer!
Imperial ID
Re: Harold, It's Getting Warmer!
Re: Unusual Traveller campaigns
Re: Year 0 Core sector now available
Just a game?
Non-Canon
Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec
Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec
IG Story?
Re: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: Gravitiational Charge
GURPS Traveller and Canon
Re: X-boats
Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures
re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)
Re: Boeing -- Boeing
Re: The Heretic Repents was Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:10:13 PST
From: "Nicholas Sylvain" <n_sylvain@hotmail.com>
Subject: Harold, It's Getting Warmer!

My Dear GM Harold Hale remarks that the temperature is rising,
before pouring some gasoline on the flames.  I apologize in 
advance for any pouring of my own.

>Classic Traveller fans of course have *absolutely* no basis for
>crowing about the legitmacy of the G:T story line over that "nasty 
>Virus thing Dave Nilsen imposed on us" (or "Loren's Rebellion"), yet
>I already sense that there are those among them who are or are
>preparing to do that very thing.

Excuse me, but I won't pretend to be the least bit sorry that G:T
will take up the legacy of CT and carry it forward.  I accept that
various people for various reasons decided to dramatically
change the direction of the official Traveller background. That
being said, I have never liked what MT and TNE did with the
CT background, and won't pretend to like it.

"Legitimacy" (whatever that means) is a non-sequitur to me.  I
prefer CT and (hopefully) G:T over MT and TNE -- that's it.

I will crow with joy from now until doomsday that CT fans will
now get a background that builds upon what we know and
love.  I may even dance and caper around a bonfire and burn
my copy of Rebellion Sourcebook, who knows.

>Sorry, but in your attempts at reaching for something that will "bring
>back the Imperium" (as if it were something tangible that was taken
>from you as a child), you are becoming Canon Storyline heretics--the 
>thing that you supposedly hate the most.

*self control mode ON*

With due respect, Harold, this borders on arrogant presumption
and insult.  Whether you admit it or not, something was taken from
me, as a CT fan -- the chance to see the background that I know,
like, and prefer, continue and grow.  Instead, it was radically
altered.  Now, I get that back, and I'm tickled!

If MT and TNE fans get more background for their preferred
setting, then good for them!  I'll understand and be happy for
them.

If disliking the MT and TNE backgrounds is heresy, then tie me
to the stake and fire up the Bar-B-Que.  If someone else wants
to be a different sort of storyline heretic, then goody for them,
I don't "supposedly" hate them.

>... G:T isn't Traveller, it's based on Traveller...

When I think of Traveller, *to me*, I think of the CT, 3rd
Imperium background (and to a degree, the Spinward
Marches.)  That, *for me*, is the heart of what Traveller
means to me.  Not ship design systems, or task rules, or the
number of sides to a die.

So, G:T is going to be more "Traveller" than either MT or
TNE was, as far as *I* am concerned.  Your milage may
vary.

- --
Nicholas Sylvain (n_sylvain@hotmail.com)
Assistant Prosecuting Attorney
Montgomery County, Ohio


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:43:22 -0600
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Imperial ID

Brian A. Howard spake thusly:
>
>Has anyone tried to create a design for an Imperial passport c. Milieu
>Zero? I have some ideas, but I would like to compare notes. I do own
copy
>of Supplement 12 'Forms and Charts', but it was of limited utility. 
>
>What data would most likely be printed on the face?
>
>My thoughts are:
>Name, Home world, gender, hair, height , weight, Date-of-birth, ID#,
and
>expiration date.
>
>Any ideas?

Add a 3D Holo of the sophont, DNA map, & retinal print. Security at all
Class A/B starports should have the equipment necessary to read the
DNA map regardless of local TL. Navy/Scout bases will _always_ have
this equipment. Class C starports may have the equipment but Class C
and D won't; most of the time there's no one there who cares (IMTU).

The retinal print is more for lower TL military/civilian security
systems.
The 3D holo is for those worlds whose TLs limit their security forces
to the ol' Mark 1 eyeball.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:51:02 +1100 (EST)
From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Harold, It's Getting Warmer!

> So, G:T is going to be more "Traveller" than either MT or
> TNE was, as far as *I* am concerned.  Your milage may
> vary.

What's to say that Loren and Co. wont have something radical take place in
G:T that separates it from CT just as much as MT & TNE?



							Dave Moodie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:56:34 -0500
From: "Rob Conley" <estar@toolcity.net>
Subject: Re: Unusual Traveller campaigns

I have a setting that takes place in the year 2400. It has several basic
premises; first is that over 65 million years a group of sentient dinosaurs
colonized this region of gaxaly and terra-formed nearly all habitable and
near-inhabitable planets and then died out. second is that in the 21st
century earth suffers a limited nuclear conflict which devastates the
nations of earth, third that just before the nuclear war, the United States,
Europe and China launch sub-light interstellar starts to start colonies on
Alpha Centauri (Promethus), Epsilon Eridani (Ilike), and Epsilon Indi
(Meshan). The nuclear war triggers the latent psionic abilities of humanity
and in a hundred years earth is united under the psi dominated Terran
Consulate. Also that the alien races humanity encounters are the evolved
descendents of earth-based ecologies, so diseases, and food are compatible.

The preamble for my setting is this:

Mankind has reached the stars only to find Earth. Birds flying through
distant skies, fish swimming unknown seas, and dinosaurs ruling unexplored
continents. On a hundred worlds are the children of the Earth; children of a
Earth of sixty-five million years ago. Now the new children have out grown
their cradle and wonder who and what scattered the seeds of the Earth
throughout the stars. They are forging a new life among the stars but old
fears and conflicts still threaten them. The year is 2403 and this is their
story.

If you are interested in the full background you can find it at
http://www.toolcity.net/~estar/space.html

Also you can catch the continuing saga of my traveller campaign at
http://www.toolcity.net/~estar/traveller.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:58:26 -0500
From: "Rob Conley" <estar@toolcity.net>
Subject: Re: Year 0 Core sector now available

>Volker's Core Sector Corrections

What is this?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:36:37 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Just a game?

I thought this whole Traveller thing was a game... you know, for fun?
I mean, basically all the background material is just made up... so
what's the big deal if someone plays CT or G:T or MT or TNE or whatever?
It's one thing if someone attacks someone else's ideas but it's
another thing to get all huffy just because someone is making up
stuff for their Traveller game that's different from yours.

Time for everyone to just relax and get back into perspective...

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:19:08 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Non-Canon

Oh dear....

I just read back my 6AM frothings from the list. I've maybe calmed down a
bit now.

Maybe not.....

G:T isn't Traveller? Sorry? Then neither is TNE, MT or T4. They all change
some part of 'canon'. If we can change from thrusters to HEPLAR and still
call the game Traveller then we can change a single piece of the storyline
and still have Traveller. But who cares about that?

I ran CT with Laserburn combat rules. By some people's definition that's
not Traveller, even though it's set in the Traveller universe and used all
the game concepts. Then I ran TNE, but using home-written rules that had
little to do with any Traveller rules ever written. I suppose that wasn't
Traveller either? 

Oh, but it was. It just used different mechanics.

I say again: G:T's storyline diverges from the 'canon' version, but that
doesn't mean it's not Traveller... it's set in the 3rd Imperium... has all
the Traveller concepts. (BTW: in answer to the question about how closely
GT is going to resemble the pre-divergence canon, I can say: those writers
I know about are making strenuous efforts to ensure compliance with canon
sources.)

It's as simple as this: There are now several versions of Traveller around.
Pick the setting and rules set you like and just play the damn game. Why
are we all mudslinging? The damage is done. The traitors diverged from
canon when the first supplement came out for CT, and has kept on diverging.
Just ignore what you don't like. This is a GAME, for God's sake. Buy it, or
don't. Your choice. But NOBODY has the right to demand bootings off the
list for breaches of canon. Else nobody would be allowed on this list at
all. I mean.... how big are Imperial Battle Cruisers? 

The answer is 1250 displacement tons. (Adventure 1: Kinunir) Anything else
is non-canon and WRONG. 
Get off the list if you believe different.

There are plenty of (just as ridiculous) other examples, I'm sure. I can't
be bothered to think of any right now.

This is the Traveller list. It's for discussion of Traveller in all its
forms, and G:T may not fit the 'conon' timeline, but it's Traveller. I know
that because:

1. It looks and feels like Traveller. It uses Traveller concepts, the
Traveller universe, and  even the 'stable Imperium' setting that not long
ago certain people were bemoaning the abandonment of.

2. Loren Wiseman says its Traveller, and he should know.

3. It says 'Traveller' in the title. That means that Marc Miller has
licensed it as a variant or something similar. Would he have done that if
it wasn't Traveller? No, because his permission wouldn't be needed to
produce 'SF game that has nothing to do with Traveller' (tm). Such a game
might well have no place on this list. This one does.

I have played and enjoyed all the versions of Traveller and I'll be getting
GURPS Trav too. I'll pick the one I like best and crib ideas from the
others. But what I'll not do is to dump hate-mail on any particular variant
because it doesn't fit my small-minded vision of what Traveller should be. 

Which is and which isn't Traveller, then?

They're ALL Traveller.

We're all Traveller fans.

Go figure.

MJD. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:16:16 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec

"Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> writes:
>I think we calculated that a ship with 10G (or 15G?) engines
>could travel a parsec in 42 days or so.  I don't remember if
>we worried about c or not.

You didn't. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:43:06 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec

At 03:27 PM 3/25/98 -0500, Robert Eaglestone wrote:
>I think we calculated that a ship with 10G (or 15G?) engines
>could travel a parsec in 42 days or so.  I don't remember if
>we worried about c or not.

If you worry about c, then it takes a minimum of 3 years to travel a
parsec, since a parsec is that many light years.

As a rough and ready guide, you hit 0.5 c, where relativity might start to
get interesting, after at=1.5e8m/s = 100 t = 1.5e8 -> 1.5e6 s -> 18 days or
so at ten gravities.  At 1 g, you would hit c in a year, more or less.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:05:07 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: IG Story?

So, what's the story with IG?  Are they going to make it?

I noticed on the IG website that T4.1 was suspended indefinitely, as
well as some other products.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:07:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad

 
> >The whole laser things is a good example of broken Game Mech canon.
> >In FFS1 out of the box, lasers were the only weapon that anyone
> >would ever build since they were far and away better weapons that
> >anything else (of _any_ size). Story canon for TNE had published
> 
>    I've always designed ships w/ the tl*50 limit on lasers but I've gotten to
> thinking about it.   Using that rules mod, there's no reason to create laser
> bays.  The pure volume of bays are only needed when there's a very high
> discharge energy.  Besides... do small ships use anything other than lasers
> (including det lasers in here).  Only the larger ships have the space for
> spinal mounts.  What else do the large ships use?  Missle bays, spinal mounts
> and... lasers.  
    
That was my point. TL*50 is an add-on, not out of the box FFS. FFS
alone means that a couple dozen 100 ton laser bays will wipe out
bunches of big ships. Spinal mounts then disappear from the universe
(unless everyone has agreed to use less effective weapons by treaty
or something :-)

> Well Dave Nilsen said that almost all of the published designs were compromise
> updates of old designs and that he wasn't satisfied with them at all.  The
> Regency Starship Guide was going to take full advantage of the rules in FF&S. 
> (x-ray lasers, etc etc). 
 
Meaning that they would all break canon? What I mean is that if the
designs tookk full advantage of out of the box FFS, spinal mounts,
missiles, etc would all be totally pointless.

> Has something with substance been posted to this list about G:T?  All i've
> seen in the various debate about it, but nothing useful.

Loren is involved, that speaks volumes to me! And Steve Jackson is
indeed a fan. He seems pretty concerned about quality, too.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:03:50 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:47:26 +0100, anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
>Maybe we could say that this "injection mass" is also sometimes called
>"displacement mass" for matter needed to displace the ship into j-space.
>This should be the basis for the strange term "displacement ton" that
>refers to volume and has generally nothing to do with the wet naval term
>displacement.

>Others on the lsit have previously solved the problem why jumpfuelis called
>fuel - it is because it is the same substance as the p-plant fuel and
>landlubbers tend to mix them up. If that is the case then surely spacers
>would look down at people that use the term "fuel" when they're actually
>talking about injection mass or displacement mass.

Well, just for record, not everyone considers the problems solved.
This is at least partially because the objection is not that you
can't come up with handwaves to make displacement mass fit.  But
that the presence of the various handwaves makes the idea feel
contrived....

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 23:43 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Gravitiational Charge

Moin Leonard Erickson,

> No. "Weight" is the force generated by gravity (or acceleration) acting mass.

	[ handwave mode on - this is not superstring but only string 3 ]

	In a centrifuge, we feel the centrifugal force, but there is a
	centripetal force. Thats like we feel the weight, but there is
	an other force. This force is centripetal. Its because there is
	an event horizon between 3 dimensional time and 3 dimensional
	space. Its posible to reduce the space to a point (legal
	because of the event horizon) and to draw the time as a flight
	of winding stairs (in german we call this Wendel). As we speak
	about drawing time, we have to speak about vectors and not
	distances. The most important vector is where a quantum of mass is
	most likely. And this is C-v, where v is its own velocity it
	thinks it has in space3/time1. Anytime we think we increase our
	velocity we are reducing it the same time in the time continum.
	When we thing we have light speed in space, our speed in time is
	reduced to zero, and our position in the space continum is a
	point zero. When we think we are mostly at rest, our time will
	move as fast as posible and our position in the time continuum
	will be at the out fringe. In both cases we feel the centrifugal
	force of the time continuums impuls and we call this force
	weight. This weight is not a real force, but something we feel.
	The real things are quantum (what we call mass) and impuls of
	the time continuum.

	[ at this point I'm starting to take paper and pencil and draw
	  implication for quantum mechanics - but I have to stop now ;-]

	Bad news ob trav, I dont know why it takes one week for jump,
	nor why it uses LHy, why it needs an astrogator or AIvirus ( ... ;-)

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 01:46 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: GURPS Traveller and Canon

>  Anyone else get the feeling that it's getting a little warm in here?...

	what do you expect is getting sping - nothing will be eaten as
	hot as it was cooked, and coffe next to a keyboard is likely to
	be cold anyway.

Hy folks,

	First of all apologise - I did'nt pick up the right tone. But
	this tritonous caused a lot of replies and thats quite good.

	Second - it is not my intension to throw Loren out, it would
	be easier to unsubscribe. It is my intension to reheat the
	discussion about G:T, even if I know that its to late to
	convince him to place his setting inside the canon timeline
	for some month. The decission was made some times ago and
	probately not even SJ could change it now. But I can make
	Loren feal unconfortable. He should read what I thing about
	him and G:T, or take me to his personal killfile, which was
	the advise I gave him yesterday.

	Third - Its my opinion, that G:T and what Loren is doing with
	Traveller is a bad thing and only WarHamster would be worse.

Douglas E. Berry:
> Ah.  This would be by publishing full page ads, running an active website,
> and publishing well researched books set in the Classic Era, which remains
> by far the most popular era for play.

	GURPS is not playing the Classic Era (900-1100) but in an alternate
	timeline invalidating MT&TNE.

> This is an odd definition of "killing."

	Call it odd, its still killing (half of) Traveller canon.

MJ Dougherty:
> As an aside: By this argument... TNE IS the only setting, because it's
> canon. You must play TNE. Only TNE. Everything else is a variant,
> non-canon, and not permitted to anyone on this list.

	Thats not my point, if you want to play in the classic imperial
	setting, you should do it between 1-1115, at best start at
	800-900 to asure that the 3I is still online when the Travellers
	have to take a low berth. Or you can do it in any other way.
	You can play as heretic as you want as long as you are not
	the major publisher.

MJ Dougherty:
> So what's different? Ah. Loren's doing it publically. Successfully. 

Harold D. Hale:
> The fact is that Steve Jackson Games is a powerful game company and
> Loren's voice gives G:T a certain level of legitimacy that can't be
> dismissed readily.

	Yes thats my point. Its a differnce between us when we are
	playing an alternate Traveller at home, and GURPS running an
	active web site with lots of TNS articles invalidating MT year
	for year, and soon starting to publish their version of
	Traveller. That IG is perhaps closing doors makes this alternate
	setting the only one printed in numbers. And this is killing
	Traveller as Traveller is not a ruleset but canon = 20 years
	of written history.

James a Clem:
> Those poor Vilani were so damn rigid, they were trashed by an
> upstart race called the Solomani.

	This is perhaps a good paralell to Traveller. Traveller has the
	weight of 20 years tradition, making it nearly imposible to
	write anything without violating canon. But GURPS did'nt even
	try. Loren "came out the shower" and deceided that Traveller
	canon is dead, and that there is a need to release from the
	burden of 20 years written history. He can be as successfull as
	those hated Solomani b*st&rds, looting the Vilani empire and
	raping the Vilani women^h^h^h^h^hculture.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 00:25 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: X-boats

Moin Bruce Johnson,

> Technologically, we have the ability today to pretty much make a
> completely automated airliner. Will we ever see one? Probably not in my
> lifetime. Humans are funny that way...they want a human in charge of
> things.

	Thats also my point. There is no technological reason against
	the fully automated ship (and some wealthy travellers have them)
	but only a sociopsycho reason. If this is also constrained by
	law and planetary advanced defenses, fully automated ships will
	even die in TNE.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:19:19 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures

At 06:05 pm 3/24/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>        WMF, DXF, et al. are vector formats, which are much more
easily
>>scaled, edited, and generally messed with. GIF and JPEG are raster
or
>>bitmap formats. Not nearly as nicely edited.
>>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>
>Then why not settle on something more like standards:
>
>Illustrator files (the standard in DTP), PDF (the standard in
>crossplatform), Flash (the standard vector format on the web) or
postscript
>(the standard on UNIX).

	How many programs can actually import an Illustrator file? Not very
easily edited if I can't import it. How many programs can edit a PDF
file? None that I know of, other than Adobe Acrobat. How standard is
Flash--I've never heard of it? And how many programs can import and
edit it? None that I have, at least. How many programs can edit
Postscript? Yes, GhostScript allows Wintel machines to view and print
it ... 

	I'm absolutely NOT arguing that DXF or WMF are the best formats as
far as reproducing the original author's creation. But just about
every vector program out there can read and write DXF in some form or
another. Even Powerpoint, a presentation graphics program, and Word,
a *word processor* can import DXF.

	So my point was that they're a reasonable "least common denominator"
if you want to distribute in an *editable* format.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:25:59 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)

At 09:09 pm 3/24/98, you wrote:
>Moin SD Mooney,
>
>> Gulp! Haven't you read the FAQ (Virus being one of those things to
avoid
>> here!).
>
>	If the FAQ is realy saying this, I would vote also to remove
>	Loren and his non canon GURPS junk from this list.

	Chill pill. The FAQ isn't saying discussions of Virus is one of the
things to avoid here. Translated from colloquial english, I believe
Mr Mooney was attempting to convey the following thoughts:

	1. "Gulp!" Surprise/consternation at this topic being raised.
	2. "Haven't you read the FAQ" This information is available in the
FAQ.
	3 "(Virus being one of those things to avoid here!)" Virus is a very
touchy subject, along the lines of fractional lightspeed kinetic
projectiles, and your question may raise a few flames, hence my
concern (see 1.) at this topic being raised.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:20:40 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Boeing -- Boeing

At 12:02 am 3/24/98 EST, you wrote:
>Boeing has a reputation for this sort of stuff, dating back to WWII,
when
>B-17s were put through some remarkable hoops. I keep running across
rumors of
>a pilot pulling an Immelman with a B-17, but have never found solid
proof. 

	Air and Space had a story about the prototype 707. Seems the
chairman of Boeing was out on a houseboat in the Potomac, wining and
dining a bunch of airline executives in the hopes of convincing them
to buy this radical new jet-powered passenger plane. As part of the
shindig, he'd arranged for the prototype to do a flyby. What he
*hadn't* arranged for was the roll the chief test pilot decided to do
... the pilot didn't have a job when he landed. The next morning the
orders started rolling in and he got his job back.

	If I recall correctly, the designers had recently been arguing over
whether the 707 *could* roll, and came to the conclusion it couldn't.
It certainly had never been done before.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:32:00 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: The Heretic Repents was Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

At 09:21 am 3/25/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Since FFS2 the injection mass stuff is *canon*.

	I feel obligated to make the disclaimer that Marc was never given
the opportunity by IG to review FF&S2 for orthodoxy before
publication. He has indicated informally that he's got some problems
with it, but that it will be fundamentally sound for T4.1.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:36:26 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon

>> Ah.  This would be by publishing full page ads, running an active website,
>> and publishing well researched books set in the Classic Era, which remains
>> by far the most popular era for play.
>
>	GURPS is not playing the Classic Era (900-1100) but in an alternate
>	timeline invalidating MT&TNE.

OK, so it's not quite the classic era more of a continuation of the classic
era.  IT IS A GAME!!!  It's not a matter of life and death, it's not
religion!  With your cries of "CANON" this and "CANON" that you sound like
you are on a Jihad!  Lighten up!  No one is forcing you to buy GURPS:
Traveller, believe it or not you do have a choice where purchasing
Traveller products is concerened.

Personally I am axiously awaiting the release of GURPS: Traveller and have
already told my FLGS to get me a copy as soon as it is available.  Who
cares if it's in an alternate Traveller Universe.

Let's look at this rationally, I'm assuming that you've got a majority of
the Traveller stuff that's in print that you've been able to lay your hands
on (I'll admit that I do).  Now G:T comes along, you've got new source
books, which based on everything SJG's seems to do will be high quality (I
wish we could say that about IG).  If you feel you must buy these books,
but find the fact that they go against the "All Holy Canon of the Traveller
Universe" repugnant, you can still use them for adventure ideas.  If you
want to play in the MT or TNE settings using GURPS, you will now have an
easy way to do it!

Think of it as a potentially wonderful source of new material, not as a
abomination that violates the "All Holy Canon of the Traveller Universe"
and must be resisted at all cost.

But most importantly remember this, it is a game, it isn't real!  It is
simply a game, and it's supposed to be fun!

				Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                       |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them.    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html            |

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #312
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 26 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 313



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: canon vs. Canon
Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures
Re: Imperial ID
Islands Clusters questions
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon
Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec
<Sigh>
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #312
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #312
Alt game settings
links
Re: Imperial ID

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:44:49 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

> Well, I can't speak generally.  But communications limitations is one of
> the founding principles of the background.  To change this doesn't
> involve tweaking the background, it inolves either scrapping it
> or putting in obvious kludges.

Y'know.  I think I stated this.  The Xboat network still works in exactly
the same way, there's just no person on board.  So, no, changing whether
Xboats are automated or manned does not involve scrapping canon, nor does
it involve fudging anything.

> As to the role of humans more generally, to me it is a roleplaying
> issue.  I would rather GM and play a game where your PC does stuff
> rather than one where he/she sits back and lets a computer do it.
> That is why I don't hand wave.  I simply tell my players that
> PC participation is simply a genre convention.

It is a roleplay issue.  You're absolutely right.  Personally, the way I
see it is that there's no need for elaborate handwaves to say that.  

> >Free Traders will still be crewed by sentient lifeforms because they
need
> >personal, human contact.  They need to land, talk to brokers, talk to
other
> >merchants, whatever.
> 
> Not really.  They can be picked up at arrival by humans.  They don't
> don't need to support them, doing nothing, for a week in jumps
> space.  Instead you have crews at each end that can handle landing
> and taking off of some multiple number of ships.

I don't mean Free Trader as in ship type, I mean Free Trader in the
Traveller ideal.  A crew of people who buy and sell goods.  The "Free"
points out that they are not attached to a large corporation.  How many
Free Trader crews do you know that have "agents" at every planet along
their trade routes?  That's right.  It doesn't happen.  Sooooo...  canon is
not changed.  PCs can still be Free Traders.

> >Maybe some of the big megacorporations do actually use robotic cargo
ships.
> > Again, this doesn't invalidate any sort of Canon.
> 
> Except that suddenly robotic ships that PCs have never seen before
> are suddenly all over the place.

How do you mean?  I have never been on board a cargo ship plying the
Atlantic or Pacific trade routes.  I've never been on an oil tanker.  I've
seen them from a short distance, but I've never been on them.

Your players are on Megacorp cargo ships from week to week?  Have your
players ever actually been on Megacorp dedicated cargo ships?

From the PCs point of view, this stuff is almost entirely invisible, so
that's really not a valid argument.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:11:10 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> writes:
>But just about
>every vector program out there can read and write DXF in some form or
>another. Even Powerpoint, a presentation graphics program, and Word,
>a *word processor* can import DXF.

Just about may be correct, but as far as I know none of the software I use
can import those formats, including my version of Word (4.0).

If someone will email me a small DXF file I can try to run it through my
software.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:21:28 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

> What data would most likely be printed on the face?
> 
> My thoughts are:
> Name, Home world, gender, hair, height , weight, Date-of-birth, ID#, and
> expiration date.
> 
> Any ideas?

	Possibly some sort of genetic info, or retina scan.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Brian A. Howard
> 
> Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
> For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:27:12 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Islands Clusters questions

I have often wondered, in an abstract sort of way, how Messrs. Miller and
Company came up with all those names for star systems, ships, and whatnot.
Now that I am trying to reverse-engineer the Islands Clusters Campaign
(Adventure 5: Trillion Credit Squadron, pp. 40-47) into a role-playing
setting, I have a couple of specific questions for anyone that can answer
them:

1.  I can figure out the meaning and rationale behind just about all the
names in the campaign.  I am stumped on the following.  What do they mean
or refer to?

Marinus van der Lubbe
Amondiage
St. Hilaire (is it Pope Hilary, St. Hilary of Arles, or St. Hilary of
Poitiers?)

2.  Is an entire planet really named after Berlichingen im
Baden-Wurtemberg?  It's the only one I can find, but I've been there (or at
least to Schoental up the road) and it's dinky, if pleasant.

3.  Did anyone ever name the other three STL ships (one from New Home, two
from Amondiage)?

Thanks!

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:38:01 -0500
From: "Rob Conley" <estar@toolcity.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Right now I am GMing a GURPS Traveller campaign using the Traveller: The
Adventure and David Summer Conversion rules. You can read about the campaign
at http://www.toolcity.net/~estar/traveller.html. I owned Traveller since
the early 80's and greatly admired the background. However ruleswise it
lacked compared to other role-playings that came out in the mid to late
80's. Now this is my opinion and comes from sitting down with people can
trying to play the system. My playing group eventually settled on GURPS
because we didn't have to learn a whole bunch of new rules everything we
started a new campaign in a different genre, it was nice point based system
where you build what you wanted in a character and as time went on quality
supplements were put out. The quality is what kept us with GURPS

When I heard that is GURPS was coming out with a Traveller Conversion I said
great. We used the WoD conversion in various campaigns and that worked out
nicely. So I set up a Traveller Campaign and used the Traveller: Adventures
as basis for starting the campaign. Several comments on the intial setup.

First making Sci-Fi character in GURPS can be a little tougher than fantasy
because of the wealth of skills. The Summers conversion with the required
career skill list was great and it fealt more Traveller like. I recommend to
Loren and SJG that they use the new Template system as a basis for
generating GURPS Traveller Characters. I would recommend to include
different sub specialities like a Naval Doctor or a Merchant Broker in the
different Career paths.

I would like to see a small chapter disscussing medical option in Traveller
what type of bionic, regeneration, and cloning is available. I have
characters getting shot and mangled. I used the Medical Articles in the
Traveller's Digest as a basis for deciding how to handle things. The Vargr
was planting charges to blow up Howood trees on Pysadi when he rolled a 18
on 3D6 a critical failure. The charge blew up and he failed his death roll.
Looking at the articles it stated that a person who has suffered injuries so
that all three of his physical stat are zero is death unless in 1D6 minutes
he is stabilized with the right equipment. On of the player had the right
medical equipment and was able to stabilize him and get him back to the
ship's low berth. Then next fifteen minutes was sitting down and finding a
tech level 12 world in Aramis subsector so he doesn't have to spend a
half-year regenerating.

I will keep you all posting on how the campaign is going.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:39:22 -0600
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon

> GURPS is not playing the Classic Era (900-1100) but in an alternate
> timeline invalidating MT&TNE

How exactly is it invalidating MT and TNE? It's not like the existance of
Gurps Traveller will somehow erase every MT and TNE product off the face of
the Earth. You can still play MT or TNE....this just gives those of us that
like the CT background a lot, but have played the same years 1105-1115 over
and over and over, new material - no one is forcing you to buy it or use
it. 

Just picture it like H. Beam Piper's Paratime series - the GDW/IG Traveller
is on one probability branch, the GT is on another. Given Traveller's many
likenesses to Piper's other famous series, it's almost fitting, actually.

If anything, what damages MT and TNE (IMHO), is IG's and Traveller's
creator's decision to basically abandon the 'present', and move the
'official' game into the past to the year 0.  When I got T4, that really
annoyed me - while I didn't like the Virus scenario much, I thought it
needed some sort of resolution one way or the other in T4 - not just "let's
just try to forget it and set the game a long long time before it
happened". 

Instead of the seemingly endless number of equipment supplements IG has put
out, I wish they'd have put out different era sourcebooks - one for CT, one
for MT, one for the 4th Imperium (or maybe the 1st Republic?) after the
recovery of the Virus, etc, much like outlined in the T4 rulebook. But,
since IG dropped the ball, I'm glad SJG is doing something almost like
that.

Anyway, that leads me to a question - how much of Gurps Traveller will be,
er, Gurps related, and how much will be general source material? While I
love the setting for Gurps Traveller, I abhor the Gurps rules.

Gurps sourcebooks are usually useful for any game system, but will Gurps
Traveller mostly just be conversions of Traveller equipment, aliens, etc,
to Gurp terms, or will it have lots on the setting,  maybe a listing of the
stats of the Spinward Marches in GT 1116, who's who in the 3rd Imperium,
Library Data, etc? 

                                         Jeremy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:06:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec

In mail you write:

> I think we calculated that a ship with 10G (or 15G?) engines
> could travel a parsec in 42 days or so.  I don't remember if
> we worried about c or not.

You must not have. At c it takes 3.26 years to cross a parsec.
And it just so happens that 1 g for 1 year (ignoring relativity) will
get you to a speed close to c. So at 10 g it'd take 1/10th year to
reach c.

A parsec is roughly 200,000 AU. You figure it...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:32:12 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: <Sigh>

Michael Koehne said:

>	First of all apologise - I did'nt pick up the right tone. But
>	this tritonous caused a lot of replies and thats quite good.
>
>	Second - it is not my intension to throw Loren out
>
>    It is my intension to reheat the
>	discussion about G:T, 

You have certainly achieved that.

>    even if I know that its to late to
>	convince him to place his setting inside the canon timeline
>	for some month. 

The contract between Steve Jackson Games and Marc Miller's Far Future
Enterprises specifies two things about the background: No Imperium-wide
Rebellion, and no Virus. Steve Jackson wanted it that way _AND_ Marc Miller
wanted it that way (which gives you a clue how he feels in the matter). 

>    The decission was made some times ago and
>	probately not even SJ could change it now. 

Not without voiding the contract.

>    But I can make
>	Loren feal unconfortable. He should read what I thing about
>	him and G:T, or take me to his personal killfile, which was
>	the advise I gave him yesterday.

You haven't made me feel uncomfortable. You _have_ made me feel angry, and a
little frustrated. If I get to where I can't take it, I'll stop reading your
posts -- which would be a pity, because you have some good ideas once in a
while. 

>	Third - Its my opinion, that G:T and what Loren is doing with
>	Traveller is a bad thing and only WarHamster would be worse.

It's my opinion that nothing constructive will come from stirring this subject
up, but I cannot stop it (and wouldn't even if I could). I feel the same way
about the other "flame-bates" (big rocks, pirates, usv) that start up from
time to time. 

All I ask is that everything remain reasonably civilized.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:32:12 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #312

> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:10:13 PST
> From: "Nicholas Sylvain" <n_sylvain@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Harold, It's Getting Warmer!
> 
> My Dear GM Harold Hale remarks that the temperature is rising,
> before pouring some gasoline on the flames.  I apologize in 
> advance for any pouring of my own.
> 
> >Classic Traveller fans of course have *absolutely* no basis for
> >crowing about the legitmacy of the G:T story line over that "nasty 
> >Virus thing Dave Nilsen imposed on us" (or "Loren's Rebellion"), yet
> >I already sense that there are those among them who are or are
> >preparing to do that very thing.
> 
> I will crow with joy from now until doomsday that CT fans will
> now get a background that builds upon what we know and
> love.  I may even dance and caper around a bonfire and burn
> my copy of Rebellion Sourcebook, who knows.


RIGHT ON! my CT brother <<HUGE GRIN>>

Please,  I just about fell out of my chair ! ....(:-P

I touched the Rebellion Sourcebook.. ONCE! 
When I came to my friends said that I passed out and went into convulsions
with foam coming out of my mouth.

> When I think of Traveller, *to me*, I think of the CT, 3rd
> Imperium background (and to a degree, the Spinward
> Marches.)  That, *for me*, is the heart of what Traveller
> means to me.  Not ship design systems, or task rules, or the
> number of sides to a die.
> 
> So, G:T is going to be more "Traveller" than either MT or
> TNE was, as far as *I* am concerned.  Your milage may
> vary.
> 
> - --
> Nicholas Sylvain (n_sylvain@hotmail.com)
> Assistant Prosecuting Attorney
> Montgomery County, Ohio


I also agree but I would take one note .

I love the Spinward Marches!  We have had many a great game setting there!

At times I think that I live in the Spinward Marches.

Long Live CT & to some extent G:T which is trying to get back to that CT
thing.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:38:28 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #312

> 
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:36:37 -0600 (CST)
> From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
> Subject: Just a game?
> 
> I thought this whole Traveller thing was a game... you know, for fun?
> I mean, basically all the background material is just made up... so
> what's the big deal if someone plays CT or G:T or MT or TNE or whatever?
> It's one thing if someone attacks someone else's ideas but it's
> another thing to get all huffy just because someone is making up
> stuff for their Traveller game that's different from yours.
> 
> Time for everyone to just relax and get back into perspective...
> 
> Bolie IV



AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!

JUST a game!!

You must have never played CT!


AAARRGGHH!!!

Macr Miller is my GOD because of CT!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:49:24 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Alt game settings

I run a game setting based on a Monty Python Universe.

Dave, the guy who sent me the following, used to play in my old Ct game.
This may not be funny to those who do not know the Universe as I do but oh
well! this is filled with references to my highly successful and funny CT
game many years ago.

I read the following e-mail at lunch today and I am sure that the other
people in the restaurant were thinking of taking me away for "observation".
David warned me not to eat or drink when I read this 
and I did not listen. Man food and liquid almost went all over the place
several times.

David  is going to make a "special" appearance in my game on Saturday.

May you all enjoy this as much as I did.



From David via e-mail


The Incomparable Lord Garth:

1 The Setup

Before Garth's arrival, his entourage arrives. Headed by Retired Rear
Admiral Poof-Dah (his personal attache and interior decorator), the
entourage also consists of Dr. Toady, Dr. Grovel and Dr. Scrape (all
personal assistants) and his security cheif - a bipedal preying mantis type
being. All wear collars with little white lights on them - except for the
rear admiral who is a lifelong friend and every bit as insane as Garth.

The Rear Admiral decides with a glance that "this is just all wrong, it
will not do!" He then proceeds to have the ground crew bring out torches to
carve up the liner to meet the "proper" specifications. Those
specifications include a huge meeting room, office, greeting area, and
quarters for the "special guest."

The entry to the greeting room has no door, but dangling beads instead, as
does the office and quarters - the greeting room is covered in cushy
pillows for lounging about (all very colorful of course). To the left is
the office and then quarters and to the right the meeting room. The
meeting room has a door made of "unknown materials" because it is to be
used for the preliminary negotiations, and security is a top-issue.

The side-effect of these new arrangements is to put all the other PC's into
submarine-like cabins with three bunk beds and not much else.

2 Arrival

With much to do, the two other negotiators greet Lord Garth, who is
accompanied by loinclothed men, who have a "crazy" look in their eyes and
are wielding axe-handles menacingly. They also have necklaces with white
lights on them that emit a "voob - voob" sound. They also have
two-pronged head apparatus that emits noxious gas-cloud like fumes
intermittently under their noses - which they proceed to inhale as if it
were the key to their very existence - or an exquisite pleasure.

<<Surely, these couldn't be the legendary "madmen". After all, every one
knows madmen can't be trained or subdued.>> These two men escort LG
wherever he goes, and stand outside the entrance to the greeting room when
LG is in his quarters.

3 Mysterious goings on

Part A

A round, glowing, pulsating orblike apparatus is placed in engineering, it
is connected to the warp drive and regular drives by mysterious couplings
obviously of "alien origin." <<Perhaps the Engineer sees these before she
is escorted out of engineering.>> Several engineers work
feverishly around the clock turning knobs and adjusting switches on the
mysterious machine.

LG has a matching orb around his neck <<which is perhaps recognized by the
engineer, hence she can alert the whole party of the "secret">>
Part B

LG is seen and overheard screaming at one of his underlings and pointing a
garage-door opener looking device at the preying mantis dude, who's collar
goes yellow, then red, then the matis falls to the floor, apparently dead.
<<Perhaps the cyborg sees this and overhears with his "augmented senses" as
he tries to engage the madmen in a conversation (which of course the have
no response to)>> No doubt this incident is also reported to the rest "in
secret" Shortly thereafter LG addresses the crew as to his need for a new
security cheif, as his has met with an unfortunate accident.

Part C

LG conducts his interviews in engineering, having the interviewees place
their hands on the "voob - voob" orb as he asks them questions. <<Perhaps
one of the interviewees notices that the mantis and the original
first-negotiator are lying on a table in the back of the room, surrounded
by Dr. Toady, Scrape, and Grovel - who are feverishly working on the two.>>
LG explains this away as having to perform "autopsy's to determine the
source of these unexpected deaths.

Shortly thereafter, two guards wearing black helmets appear, guarding
engineering. Their faces are obscured, but one is obviously a mantis, and
the other dressed in the garb of the negotiators. Both have a funny smell
to them and shamble about when they walk. They are carrying weapons of
"unknown origin." <<perhaps the engineer checks them out while attempting a
conversation with the guard to determine the weapons capacity - she
concludes that they are solid-beam laser weapons, outlawed throughout the
galaxy for thousands of years as, when they are fired they can
theoretically penetrate everything in a straight line for several
light-years before losing their effect>>

Break ----

Fun things for the PC's to do while ship is in transit to meeting point.

1) Try to grab/ and or replace the necklace controller with a fake (it sits
on LG's desk when not in use.

2) Try to figure out what the hell that thing is in engineering.

3) Vie with one another for the "security cheif" position

4) Try to figure out what the hell those rotting things are guarding
engineering and how to get passed them without them firing their weapons,
which would destroy the ship and anything else in a straight line they was
fired at.

5) Try to get the weapons for themselves - high difficulty as the dead
don't have to sleep.

4 The meeting

LG and his two negotiators are set to meet with the three from the other
side in the meeting room, which is sealed do to the nature of the "odd
cultural demands" of the other side. This meeting to take place in space -
before anyone is allowed to the homeworld.
LG enters with the other two on his side, with the other three seated
across a great meeting table. The meeting is surreptitiously transmitted to
the rest of the PC's off in another meeting room (anyone who wishes to view
the negotiations). The door slams shut, and LG picks up the
nearest cabin chair, screams and smashes it across the table. The other two
on Garth's side are frozen in astonishment, while the three from the other
side calmly look on. LG grabs a leg of the chair, leaps across the table
and jams the leg through the eye of one of the three from the
other side.

Now the two on LG's side have wet themselves and are pounding at the door
to get out - the two on the other side calmly look on. Using his
voice-command and special mental powers Garth orders the two twits to sit
down immediately, they comply. He then orders them to give the two
others "the gifts" - which they do. When LG orders the two to sit, the
necklace he wears throbs and makes a Woob - Woob sound, and the ships power
dims a bit as strange noises and shudders are heard and felt from
engineering.

The "gifts" are exquisitely carved boxed which contain rod-lobbers = the
favorite weapon of the others. LG then says to the others, you may have
these - pointing to the two negotiators on his side. Before the two can
even think to run, the others fire the rod-lobbers into the other two's
heads. Here the video cuts out.

Note: Rod-lobbers fire two inch thick, eight inch long stainless steel rods
at a rate of 1000 fps - and therefore are short range, but very effective
weapons.

LG and the two negotiators have finished the primary negotiations and
adjourn to the greeting area for cigars and cognac. <<Surely some of the
party rushes to LG's quarters to investigate, where they are greeted by the
sight of LG and the others laughing and replaying the events,
slapping each other on the back etc>> The preliminary negotiations have
been VERY successful and the entire ship is invited to visit the home
planet - to have a look around/ get into trouble while LG completes the
negotiations.

5 The planet - the mission

LG briefs the PC's on the fact that the others cultural taboos and rituals
seem strange to outsiders, but that he had performed his part of the
greeting ceremony to perfection. Furthermore, for those willing to
volunteer, he will pay handsomely to have a "secret weapon" the others
are developing destroyed. 

This involves breaking into a high-security building, but one in a civilian
area, and thus not guarded by heavy artillery or anything like that. The
volunteers will be given all of the money up front, but the key-code to
release the money will not be given until the mission is complete.
Furthermore, the volunteers will have to wear neck bracelets, signifying
the are under the protection of LG - otherwise they could be imprisoned or
even killed by the others for looking at a person the wrong way, or
spitting on the sidewalk etc (i.e. breaking cultural taboos unknown to
them).

The PC's get through the security forces easily enough - racking up
experience points and perhaps getting some minor injuries for their efforts
- - the guards, in the employ of LG are mostly nearsighted, old men, with
powerful weapons, but no real idea of how to aim or fire them
efficiently - thus the entire area is torn to shreds by the action. 

The players find the secret weapon to be a helmet. In the computer banks at
the warehouse they further find that the helmet is an anti-mind-control
helmet. <<Perhaps they consider that this could be the weapon to free
themselves of LG's insidious presence>> They decide not to destroy it, but
to hide it. Meanwhile LG has called the authorities who are headed in
sufficient number to apprehend the party at the warehouse. 

6 The showdown

The party is bailed out of jail by LG releasing their promised money, but
to the authorities (after a phone call to confirm the destruction of the
"weapon" of course). <<perhaps the party is now ready for a showdown with
Garth, as the ship is leaving that evening, the negotiations being
over. The party is only charged with LG's safety through the negotiations
after all>>

LG awaits whomever is to be the big-man in the meeting room aboard ship. Of
course the cameras are working so the others can observe from a distance
(so as to avoid any mental attacks). The door slams shut after the
combatant <<perhaps that do-gooder cyborg>> enters to face down LG.

LG then uses a remote control to trigger the real use of the helmet, to
fire high-power jets encased in the helmet - hurling the victims head
against the nearest bulkhead. This continues for a bit, as LG enjoys this
type of entertainment! Then, as the party will more than likely be
rushing in to save the Borg (or whomever) - LG is transported out to his
racing yacht - the "Pretty Swift." The ship, leaves the area immediately,
and as is has a reality drive, and is capable of making quadrant-jumps,
there is no hope of the party following, much less even knowing where LG is
off to.

In payment for their efforts, the party also receives a quick and brutal
beating at the hands of the madmen guards, just for sports sake. 

Before LG leaves he sets the remote control to random/active and then
smashes it. For the next several week, or until the party figures out how
to remove the helmet form the victim, his or her head is randomly
propelled, at random intervals, in random directions, until it comes into
contact with something solid.


1) Perhaps some of the party take to the idea of the rod-lobber as a
weapon, they are available on the planet.

2) The necessity to have LG's collar remote deactivated (as they don't come
off easily) and to be able to shut down his Voob - Voob machine in
engineering before the "showdown" should be obvious enough to the party -
they need to "disable" his powers.

3) The scenario should provide the party with plenty of entertainment,
plenty of experience, and plenty of things to do, and fun doing it all. It
should also aquatint them, those who aren't already, with Lord Garth! 


Miscellaneous notes:

The reason LG is always making machines of "alien origin" that supposedly
augment his natural powers is that HE is so insane - perhaps he really
thinks they help! Then again, perhaps he knows just what he is doing.

Security report - Lord Garth, AKA Master of the Universe <<perhaps the
party can get ahold of a copy of this from a "friendly" security official
(or someone they know)>>

Lord Garth is an enigma experienced on thousands of worlds. Wherever he
goes, chaos ensues, but so does change. LG often introduces societies to
new, alien technology, and new ways of thinking - and often leaves those he
encounter either raving mad, or filled with respect - or both. 

He is a true intergalactic playboy, coming and going as he pleases, the
friend of royalty throughout the known (and unknown) worlds. He has as many
enemies as friends, but most that count him an enemy, coincidentally
enough, are no longer among the living.

Most consider him to be a genius - of the insane variety. Among his
callings are Mad-Inventor, Goodwill-Ambassador, and Adventurer. He is
gifted with mental powers that have been discounted by some, but those
"some" are usually also the soon-to-be-dead. 

Note: Garth is to be considered EXTREMELY DANGEROUS and is known to have in
his possession weapons of unheard of origin, and mass-destruction. Once he
gets an idea in his head that an individual, a group of individuals, or a
world is his enemy, the destruction of said party (parties) generally
ensues - often in a most grisly, malignant, and precocious manner - Garth
enjoys playing little "jokes" on people as they die. Beware - make an enemy
of this man at your own risk! 


James: 

Hope this all gave you a chuckle. I will be available Saturday, as I have
arranged for help for Angela/baby - I look foreword to the Chaos..... no, I
embrace it :)

David

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 01:07:36 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: links

Thanks for the link information.

My page is at the following area.


http://www.geocities.com/area51/labyrinth/2157/

Please note that it is under heavy construction.

And my first attempt at a web page.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:54:39 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

At 04:43 PM 3/25/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Brian A. Howard spake thusly:
>>
>>Has anyone tried to create a design for an Imperial passport c. Milieu
>>Zero? I have some ideas, but I would like to compare notes. 
[Snip]
>>What data would most likely be printed on the face?
>>
>>My thoughts are:
>>Name, Home world, gender, hair, height , weight, Date-of-birth, ID#,
>and
>>expiration date.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>
>Add a 3D Holo of the sophont, DNA map, & retinal print. Security at all
>Class A/B starports should have the equipment necessary to read the
>DNA map regardless of local TL. Navy/Scout bases will _always_ have
>this equipment. Class C starports may have the equipment but Class C
>and D won't; most of the time there's no one there who cares (IMTU).
>

Holo is good. For purposes of demonstration on a flat screen courtesy of
primitive TL 7-8 the image will be two-dimentional... The more detailed
identification IMTU is encoded on a microprocessor buried inside the card.
Yes the thing is a smart-card, highly encrypted with state-of-the-art
algorithms (TL12 in M0). The readers themselves are not so high-tech (say
TL7 or 8), but the reading software is quite sophisticated and a major
export of Sylea et-all.

What I was more concerned about was what the thing might look like from the
outside. 

>The retinal print is more for lower TL military/civilian security
>systems.
>The 3D holo is for those worlds whose TLs limit their security forces
>to the ol' Mark 1 eyeball.
>
Good ideas, here any others?

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #313
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 26 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 314



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Harold, It's Getting Warmer!
Re: Booting non-canon junk off the list
Re: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #311
Free Traders and Trade Stations
Re: The Heretic Repents was Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: Heretics Jump Drives
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: X-boats (fwd)
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec
Re: Forms and Charts
Re: Unusual Traveller campaigns
Re: Unusual Traveller campaigns
Bobby Ewing's long shower break and alternate settings for Trav
Bobby Ewing's long shower break and alternate settings for Trav
Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures
Re: Gravitiational Charge
Re: Imperial ID
Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 02:09:30 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Harold, It's Getting Warmer!

>Excuse me, but I won't pretend to be the least bit sorry that G:T
>will take up the legacy of CT and carry it forward.  I accept that
>various people for various reasons decided to dramatically
>change the direction of the official Traveller background. That
>being said, I have never liked what MT and TNE did with the
>CT background, and won't pretend to like it.

It doesn't matter. That's the way it is.  To avoid to the "stigma" of
*Alternate* anything *Official* set after 1130 in Charted Space will have
Virus running around and a bunch of TEDs on planets.  That's all that matters
to me.  Hell, i might do an *alternate* thing now and then but if I ever get
delusions of grandeur and want to write a supplement or something *Official*,
it'll be on the same timeline as the RC and Regency.

>I will crow with joy from now until doomsday that CT fans will
>now get a background that builds upon what we know and
>love.  I may even dance and caper around a bonfire and burn
>my copy of Rebellion Sourcebook, who knows.

At least use Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium. There might a poor sod
who doesn't have the Rebellion Sourcebook yet. : ) Or the Ref's Manual or
something... ;
: )

>>Sorry, but in your attempts at reaching for something that will "bring
>>back the Imperium" (as if it were something tangible that was taken
>>from you as a child), you are becoming Canon Storyline heretics--the 
>>thing that you supposedly hate the most.
>
>With due respect, Harold, this borders on arrogant presumption
>and insult.  Whether you admit it or not, something was taken from
>me, as a CT fan -- the chance to see the background that I know,
>like, and prefer, continue and grow.  Instead, it was radically
>altered.  Now, I get that back, and I'm tickled!

Taken from u?  lol.  "Waaaa haaa, they destroyed MY Imperium?" oh boy, that's
comedy.   Your background is DEAD!  D-E-A-D DEAD!!!  The Emperor and trillions
dead and Imperium is practically a dirty word, filled w/ venom and loathing.
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!  BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! 
And in anything *Official* it can't be any other way (in Imperial Space
anyways).

Seriously now, 

>>... G:T isn't Traveller, it's based on Traveller...
>
>When I think of Traveller, *to me*, I think of the CT, 3rd
>Imperium background (and to a degree, the Spinward
>Marches.)  That, *for me*, is the heart of what Traveller
>means to me.  Not ship design systems, or task rules, or the
>number of sides to a die.

More than anything else, Traveller is Jump Drive.  Traveller is Aslan and
K'kree and meson guns and spinal mounts.   PGMP and misjumps.  I could give a
fig for designs systems and task rules (though i'll gladly take TNE over any
other).  The background of Traveller was the life and death of the Imperium.
All things end.  It's the way of things.  As they say on Oriflamme, "Life is
tough, Deal with it"

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:24:37 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Booting non-canon junk off the list

> OK, I can't resist making another comment on this string.  We can take a
> lesson from our own canon Traveller background.  Remember the 1st
> Imperium?  Those poor Vilani were so damn rigid, they were trashed by an
> upstart race called the Solomani.  If we get so rigid with this list,
> it'll die as well.  (IMHO, of course)


Who cares about canon?  I certainly don't, and will NEVER run my
campaigns defined in a rigid canon system.  I prefer malleability in a
game.  Besides, having fun is the whole point to all this, so why put
senseless rules on having fun?  No matter what ideas I see on this list,
I'm still going to pick the ones I like and save them, and just discard
the rest.  Someone else will undoubtedly save some I didn't, etc..

That's what this list is for, anyway, isn't it?  A forum to exchange
ideas on our favorite Science Fiction RPG?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 02:53:18 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad

>That was my point. TL*50 is an add-on, not out of the box FFS. FFS
>alone means that a couple dozen 100 ton laser bays will wipe out
>bunches of big ships. Spinal mounts then disappear from the universe
>(unless everyone has agreed to use less effective weapons by treaty
>or something :-)

And my point is that maybe 100 ton laser bays should wipe out bunches of big
ships.  Meson guns would certainly still have a role (u need a Meson Screen to
counteract it).  Lasers have some drawbacks.  Everyone using lasers will
funnel some serious r&d towards sandcasters (and/or usage of the same).   

>Meaning that they would all break canon? What I mean is that if the
>designs tookk full advantage of out of the box FFS, spinal mounts,
>missiles, etc would all be totally pointless.

    Meaning that they would be designs that make sense.  That have a basis in
a psuedo-scientific consistency (FF&S).   Just maybe some of those canon
designs are stupid, like the one in Fighting Ships w/ the "Jump Net" on the
back.  The TL9 Type S scout/courier w/ a J-2 drive.  The TL10 Xboat w/ a J-4
drive.   
    Let's do a con sometime... or we're figuring out how to do BR Online (w/
your fixes methinks) on the TNE-RCES.  I'll let u use lasers above the tl*50
and I'll still use spinal mounts and missles.  Lots of missles probably. : )
Set em up and let em drift.  Pop out a couple drones... Damn, BR is fun. lol

>> Has something with substance been posted to this list about G:T?  All i've
>> seen in the various debate about it, but nothing useful.
>
>Loren is involved, that speaks volumes to me! And Steve Jackson is
>indeed a fan. He seems pretty concerned about quality, too.

Loren was involved w/ TNE.  TNE being a marvelous game would make me look
forward to GURPS: Traveller if it didn't have the premise underlying it.  I've
been absolutely disgusted by the TNS entries and the blurbs bout "returning to
the Classic campaigns."   Why couldn't the setting have been taken to 1050?
just after the Solomani Rim War?  the Interstellar Wars?  The Civil War?    To
deliberatly thumb the nose at people who started playing RPGs after CT was out
of print?  To go to a "classic" setting, damned timelines didn't have to be
split or created...   If G:T would've been set in 1300 or 1400, i'd probably
be in line to gobble it up, my distate of GURPS rules on the side...

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:02:09
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #311

>From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
>Subject: Re: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad
>
>   I've always designed ships w/ the tl*50 limit on lasers but I've gotten to
>thinking about it.   Using that rules mod, there's no reason to create laser
>bays.  The pure volume of bays are only needed when there's a very high
>discharge energy.  Besides... do small ships use anything other than lasers
>(including det lasers in here).  Only the larger ships have the space for
>spinal mounts.  What else do the large ships use?  Missle bays, spinal mounts
>and... lasers.  

Nope. Laser bays have their uses. Lasers are a way of getting low to medium
amounts of damage at a long distance, in a length-efficient manner - they
have a range function that is essentially dependant on TL and area.

PAWs and Meson guns are effective at getting medium to large amounts of
damage, but are expensive in terms of length - they have a range function
that is essentially a function of length (length squared for meson guns,
length cubed for PAWs).

Now, if we consider a "laser bay" to be a number of 600 MJ lasers under one
master fire controller, they are a cost- and length- efficient way of
dealing a number of lumps of small to medium amounts of damage at combat
ranges.

A while back, I refitted a small ship (the 200 dt FS 'Moonshine' class Drug
Runner ^k^k^k^k^k^k^k Fast Extraction Ship) into a passable frigate by
adding a pair of small PAWs onto it. The theory was that at ranges within
30kkm, the radiation damage and sand-punching ability of the PAWs would
give it a decisive advantage over other 200 dt ships. I posted it to the
list ... if anyone really wants a copy, I think I still have the email.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:41:38
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Free Traders and Trade Stations

My personal opinion is that the Free Traders that have local agents on
retainer along their trade routes are the solvent ones.

The other Free Traders tend to do *long* haul trade - the shipful of
artworks from obscure Vilani artists, taken from worlds around the Solomani
Rim back to Vland, where the artists' great-n-grankids will pay far better
money for them.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 23:35:02 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: The Heretic Repents was Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

On 03/25/98 at 09:21 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net> wrote:

>>Hee! Hee! Fooled you, eh? ;->  Generally, my take on Jump Drive is
>>reasonable standard. I'm in the "injection mass" school, so that brands
>>me heretic by the "fuse it all!" school,

>Hey Eris, welcome back to the fold. Glad to see the repentance there.

Don't get your hopes up. ;->

>Since FFS2 the injection mass stuff is *canon*.

Sure, but stutterwarp and ftl gravitons aren't. ;-p 

IAC, my herecy isn't that I reject orthodox technology or published
background, it is that I *don't* reject alternatives.  I enjoy Traveller in
*all* it's incarnations.

On a related subject, I'm *not* going to get involved in the C* debate
raging today, but I am going to say...

For heaven's sake, give it a rest! 

There's room for every fellow-Traveller on this list, regardless of which
rules, background, system or pizza toppings, he/she/it prefers. I don't
care if your version of Traveller conforms strictly to any published work
that bares the Traveller copywrite, or is so divergent that the only thing
that makes it Traveller is the GM saying so, it belongs on THIS list! 

Eris,
    I'm a heretic,
    Won't you be a heretic too?
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 23:38:47 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Heretics Jump Drives

On 03/25/98 at 10:35 AM,  warmind@juno.com (james a clem) said:

>>Using 10% of the ship's volume as jump mass?  Or using 60% of the 
>>ship's volume as jump mass?

>J-1 uses 10%, time in jump is irrelevant.  The ship basically coasts in
>jump space.  (Thats not a very accurate description, but I dont have my
>double talk generator up and running yet  :)     )

It'll create a different dynamic in the game, but there's nothing wrong
with that. 

>>Ok, I've seen that sort of effect in several books. Crews will want to
>>"pop" out of jump to get their bearings occasionally, right?  

>SHHHHHHH!!!   You'll give it away!!  **chuckle**

Hee! Hee!

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 23:52:06 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

On 03/25/98 at 04:47 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

>Maybe we could say that this "injection mass" is also sometimes called
>"displacement mass" for matter needed to displace the ship into j-space.

Actually, I do. ;->

>This should be the basis for the strange term "displacement ton" that
>refers to volume and has generally nothing to do with the wet naval term
>displacement.

However, I hadn't thought of that angle, and it's a good one.

>Others on the lsit have previously solved the problem why jumpfuelis
>called fuel - it is because it is the same substance as the p-plant fuel
>and landlubbers tend to mix them up. If that is the case then surely
>spacers would look down at people that use the term "fuel" when they're
>actually talking about injection mass or displacement mass.

Works for me. ;->  

You know, I've never had a problem with people calling the hydrogen jump
fuel, whether or not it fuels a power plant, it would be useful "color"
even if it was a misnomer. OTOH, the displacement mass is injected into
jumpspace...and we know that mass/energy is neither created or destroyed,
just transformed, so at least some portion of that mass is *very* likely
transformed from mass into a *whole* lot of energy.  So, all that converted
mass *is* fuel...or at least as much fuel as the wood in a forest is that
is fueling a forest fire.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 00:06:22 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: X-boats (fwd)

On 03/25/98 at 11:25 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>>It also means that you can affect your jump
>>bubble to come out in a different location/time.

>I don't see where you're coming from here. IMTU the collapse of the jump
>bubble leads to the destruction of the ship. 

That's the normal view of the jump bubble.  The bubble is a small area of
N-Space enclosing the ship..I have the lanthum grid producing that effect. 
The time in J-Space is something else entirely..I have it relate to the
disipation of the injection mass.

>governed by other phenomena. If pushed to explain I'd mutter something
>about parabolic curves in J-Space/N-Space relations with energy levels
>that cause jump precipitation.... someone posted something to this effect
>a while ago and I'd try and find the reference. There was also the
>interesting posts by Prof Davros (?), which I inadvertantly deleted.

Yep, weren't those from Glenn?

>>Don't get me wrong, these torps require alot of hands on work, just not in
>>jumpspace.

>Fair enough and I have no problem with that at all. I do allow jump
>torpedoes etc but there is a risk of a misjump/failure higher than that of
>a manned vessel.

I don't, because I require interaction that isn't automatable after the
ship is cut off from the outside world, but before the ship actually jumps. 
I can see where j-torps and automated ships could be an interesting
variation, though, so if you like them just "go for it."

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 00:26:04 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

On 03/25/98 at 05:03 PM,  "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> said:


>>Others on the lsit have previously solved the problem why jumpfuelis called
>>fuel - it is because it is the same substance as the p-plant fuel and
>>landlubbers tend to mix them up. If that is the case then surely spacers
>>would look down at people that use the term "fuel" when they're actually
>>talking about injection mass or displacement mass.

>Well, just for record, not everyone considers the problems solved. This is
>at least partially because the objection is not that you can't come up
>with handwaves to make displacement mass fit.  But that the presence of
>the various handwaves makes the idea feel contrived....

Makes the idea feel contrived to YOU, David.  Your "honking big fusion
engine" feels contrived to me, and that's a friendly dig, not a slam.

I'm happy with my explanation, it works for me.  I suppose you're happy
with yours, yes?  Let's be happy for each other. ;->

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 00:17:31 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec

On 03/25/98 at 07:16 PM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) said:

>"Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> writes:
>>I think we calculated that a ship with 10G (or 15G?) engines
>>could travel a parsec in 42 days or so.  I don't remember if
>>we worried about c or not.

>You didn't. 

They *obviously* didn't. ;->

An inertialess drive like (I'm going to misspell these names) the
Bergenholm or maybe the Alberrcurie Warp would fit the bill on this sort of
travel, I suppose.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:27:05 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Forms and Charts

On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Scott Ellsworth wrote:

> Anyone put together a large set of these, including various ID cards,
> icons, badges, and logos?
> 
> Alternatively, has anyone scanned in the CT supplement?  This was one I
> could not justify at the time, but might be kind of fun.

I scanned the ID Cards from the Supplement 12 and MegaTraveller Journal.
But they're very big files. (12 Cards from the CT Supplement and 5 from MT
Journal.) As they are from selected services/corporations, I think it
would be time to design new ones (not the MT Journal, which came out
latest. They're really good.)

L.A.

visit me at http://www.uni-koeln.de/~acp82/Ancients

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:21:56 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Unusual Traveller campaigns

On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, talisman wrote:

> > That is a Challenge Article I have got. But it was only about the hidden
> > Braykossa System at Regina, which is interesting enough. This also gives 
> > an interesting campaign, a kind of P.J. Farmer's "The World of Tiers".
> > 
> > L.A.
> 
> I don't supose you could send me a summery of it?
>  
Here for all REFEREES (I read it through the last days):

Challenge 27, Grandfather's Worlds.

ca. 290.000 years ago the Regina System had a gas giant in its 5th orbit,
which was rotated out of normal space and ignited. Its three moons were
positioned in equidistant points on an orbit of 30 Mio km around
Braykossa. Each moon contains a different way of observing the new sun,
which is expected to exist about a million years. Yaskoydray hadn't been
there again lately.

The inhabitants of Kraldosk (humanoid robots missing the little left
finger) under their human leader Na Kraldosk have later built a way to
the stars by working out some 100 pearls per moon of 100 km diameter
each, which are connected by portals and allow for walking from one moon
to another in about 100 days. (The pearls are ca 1 Mio km from another, so
they had to use transmission portals). The pearls are opaque from outside
and transparent from the inside.

Each pearl is unique, as they are containing either vegetation to provide
food for the pilgrims or have other interesting features, e.g. different
gravitational vectors, are completely air or water-filled, or contain a
labyrinth of stone, quartz or whatever (referee's choice)

A model of the String had also been made, which is in fact a remote
control for the pearl portals. It looks like an ordinary collier with
three bigger pearls, about 300 small ones and a clip resembling the
control station. The pearl at which this collier is located, warms
slightly, what can be seen in infrared or on close examination only.
Two pearls of the collier placed near each other allow to traverse their
counterparts immediately. The only way to enter the control station is via
the collier.

By accident some of the animals living in one pearl managed to get into
the neighbouring ones and expand their living space.

The Kraldosk people managed to build a portal leading to the normal space
and now maintain an outpost in a storehouse on regina. They think this is
only another world in their own one. One group now has deserted and will
be pursued from another one.

Adventure Hooks:
A party member will be mistaken for a Kraldoskian and kidnapped to this
world with taking the others with him/her;
The party is approached to help the Kraldoskians and are led to the world;
One person finds the collier and starts an expedition to Braykossa.

The Hidden Regina System.
5    Braykossa (igited Gas Giant)

  30 Elkyulm
  30 Kraldosk
  30 Prissuls

  30 The String (ca. 300 Pearls)
  30 Control Station

I think I'll put this information to my Ancients WebSite when I did it
over again. This will be only the first one ....

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:23:37 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Unusual Traveller campaigns

> Umm, Arthur C. Clarke's Law:  Any sufficiently advanced technology is
                          ^^^
> indistinguishable from magic.

Again, this is not his *Law*, but another well-known citation of him.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:30:53 +0100 (MEZ)
From: Hudel Helge <Hudel@Stud-Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: Bobby Ewing's long shower break and alternate settings for Trav

Hi folks, being a Traveller for some ten odd years (as most of You are
too, I suppose) this is my first statement to the list and also my first
intervention in this strangely emotional debate concerning GURPS
Traveller.  IMO, there is no reason to become that excited about it at
all...  Loren, being a veteran in RPG and especially Traveller business -
I guess he has enough of experiece with the special does and don'ts of the
game.  I think it a nice chance to have another alternative available if
one desires to.  Show me one of our ranks who didn't add his own
"homebrew" either rules, aliens or whatever You like. There is one really
important rule in the MT Referee's Manual - the only rule I always
strictly adhere to: Don't become a slave to the rules!!! (I tend to expand
it to the setting and history of the Traveller universe).  As long as it
stays within the confinements of a good RPG setting, being balanced,
realistic and consistent in itself You may use whatever You like!!!  I
always understood Traveller as being a generic SF roleplaying game - that
should mean freedom of decision in all aspects (just recently there was a
statement about a "transplanted" AD&D campaign - which personally gives me
the creeps - but if You enjoy it You're even free to have Bobby Ewing
become one of Strephon's doubles and hunt down Dulinor). I think it has
been Marc's intention to provide a powerfull tool (the Traveller rules in
all of their editions) to make SF roleplaying as delightful as possible
(aside from a good deal ;-)).
Hey, there's even the possibility to use a different gaming engine (like
the Cthulhu - or the late Cyberpunk rules systems). It simply depends on
Your imagination, the kind of story You're willing to tell and the story
Your players are expecting, doesn't it?
But to return to GURPS Traveller (I recently purchased the incredible
german version of GURPS Space [more typos than in Tav 4.0 and the lousiest 
translation I've stumbled across up to now] for there's been the idea to
create generic german adventuring background...backed by a roleplaying
magazine) the two reasons for me to buy GURPS Traveller would be 
a) my own laziness to create an alternate timeline ('cause I'dlike to
confront one of the IRIS supervisiors commanding the security forces of
the Imperial Palace on 132-1116 with completely different setting - where
Lucan doesn't want his skin...)
b) the hope - that it will improve the line of GURPS SF books being it at
least in layout and illustration :-) (listen carefully, Loren,I trust in
You)
The truth for Traveller is deeply buried in every Ref's head - and the
Canon/canon debate seems futile (whereas the discussions on the list most
of the time proove to be fertile) - so much for a pathetic statement.
Travel high or low - but travel
Bye

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:30:53 +0100 (MEZ)
From: Hudel Helge <Hudel@Stud-Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: Bobby Ewing's long shower break and alternate settings for Trav

Hi folks, being a Traveller for some ten odd years (as most of You are
too, I suppose) this is my first statement to the list and also my first
intervention in this strangely emotional debate concerning GURPS
Traveller.  IMO, there is no reason to become that excited about it at
all...  Loren, being a veteran in RPG and especially Traveller business -
I guess he has enough of experiece with the special does and don'ts of the
game.  I think it a nice chance to have another alternative available if
one desires to.  Show me one of our ranks who didn't add his own
"homebrew" either rules, aliens or whatever You like. There is one really
important rule in the MT Referee's Manual - the only rule I always
strictly adhere to: Don't become a slave to the rules!!! (I tend to expand
it to the setting and history of the Traveller universe).  As long as it
stays within the confinements of a good RPG setting, being balanced,
realistic and consistent in itself You may use whatever You like!!!  I
always understood Traveller as being a generic SF roleplaying game - that
should mean freedom of decision in all aspects (just recently there was a
statement about a "transplanted" AD&D campaign - which personally gives me
the creeps - but if You enjoy it You're even free to have Bobby Ewing
become one of Strephon's doubles and hunt down Dulinor). I think it has
been Marc's intention to provide a powerfull tool (the Traveller rules in
all of their editions) to make SF roleplaying as delightful as possible
(aside from a good deal ;-)).
Hey, there's even the possibility to use a different gaming engine (like
the Cthulhu - or the late Cyberpunk rules systems). It simply depends on
Your imagination, the kind of story You're willing to tell and the story
Your players are expecting, doesn't it?
But to return to GURPS Traveller (I recently purchased the incredible
german version of GURPS Space [more typos than in Tav 4.0 and the lousiest 
translation I've stumbled across up to now] for there's been the idea to
create generic german adventuring background...backed by a roleplaying
magazine) the two reasons for me
to buy GURPS Traveller would be 
a) my own laziness to create an alternate timeline ('cause I'dlike to
confront one of the IRIS supervisiors commanding the security forces of
the Imperial Palace on 132-1116 with completely different setting - where
Lucan doesn't want his skin...)
b) the hope - that it will improve the line of GURPS SF books being it at
least in layout and illustration :-) (listen carefully, Loren,I trust in
You)
The truth for Traveller is deeply buried in every Ref's head - and the
Canon/canon debate seems futile (whereas the discussions on the list most
of the time proove to be fertile) - so much for a pathetic statement.
Travel high or low - but travel
Bye

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:31:39 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures

On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, SD Mooney wrote:

> IIRC Maclink 9.0 will translate to PICT (easiest way to get it is to
> transfer to OS8 but that's no good if you have less than a 040 processor).
> Why not EPS or pdf?

I haven't found a way so far to make .pdf files. Encapsulated Postscripts
... have to look if it is possible. If you prefer those formats, I'll try
to make them (as I don't want someone to be disadvantaged by Win*&$#!!)

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:50:00 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Gravitiational Charge

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:

> > Gravitational "charge" is known as "mass".
> 
> Is that true? I always thought gravitational charge was known as weight. Isn't
> 
> mass an intrinsic property of matter?

Mass is a property of matter, as charge is, too.
Weight is not, it is a *force*, depending on mass and gravitation.

I remember my physics teacher trying to explain that for the class ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:08:32 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Brian A. Howard wrote:

> Has anyone tried to create a design for an Imperial passport c. Milieu
> Zero? I have some ideas, but I would like to compare notes. I do own copy
> of Supplement 12 'Forms and Charts', but it was of limited utility. 
> 
> What data would most likely be printed on the face?
> 
> My thoughts are:
> Name, Home world, gender, hair, height , weight, Date-of-birth, ID#, and
> expiration date.

Microfiche Genetic Code encapsulated?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:16:48 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Rob Prior wrote:

> "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> writes:
> >But just about
> >every vector program out there can read and write DXF in some form or
> >another. Even Powerpoint, a presentation graphics program, and Word,
> >a *word processor* can import DXF.
> 
> Just about may be correct, but as far as I know none of the software I use
> can import those formats, including my version of Word (4.0).

I use Word 6.0. But I think the importation capabilities depend upon the
drivers included and installed. So I can import .dxf, but no .pdf, if I do
not go wrong ...

The best way to solve this problem seems to be to include more than one
format: .dxf/.wmf for windows platforms, .pdf for Adobe users, .eps for
Ghostview users. That would leave everyone with a possibility to work with
this.

And now for something completely different:
The supporting software ...

L.A.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #314
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 26 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 315



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad
Re: Alt game settings
re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)
Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon
Re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)
Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon
Re: IG Story?
Re: Booting non-canon junk off the list
Re: links
Piracy : Sharing of Prizes
Islands Cluster
RE: Just a game?
Re: Free Traders and Trade Stations
Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon
Re: Islands Cluster
Re: Imperial ID
LoPop Worlds
Canonical silliness.
Re: Free Traders and Trade Stations
Re: Islands Clusters questions
Re: Automation: Request for Brainstorm

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:01:10 +1100 (EST)
From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
Subject: Re: A Quinn Martin Production, starring William Conrad

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, TravelrTNE wrote:

> Loren was involved w/ TNE.  TNE being a marvelous game would make me look
> forward to GURPS: Traveller if it didn't have the premise underlying it.  I've
> been absolutely disgusted by the TNS entries and the blurbs bout "returning to
> the Classic campaigns."   Why couldn't the setting have been taken to 1050?
> just after the Solomani Rim War?  the Interstellar Wars?  The Civil War?    To
> deliberatly thumb the nose at people who started playing RPGs after CT was out
> of print?  To go to a "classic" setting, damned timelines didn't have to be
> split or created...   If G:T would've been set in 1300 or 1400, i'd probably
> be in line to gobble it up, my distate of GURPS rules on the side...

'Cause a) an MT/TNE less universe would appeal to many (not me of course)
       b) they wanted to get the screaming and bitching out of the way
before the book comes out rather than introducing alternate timelines
later in the piece ;)




					Dave Moodie
					MT/TNE Nut ^_^

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:42:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alt game settings

In mail you write:

> Note: Rod-lobbers fire two inch thick, eight inch long stainless steel rods
> at a rate of 1000 fps - and therefore are short range, but very effective
> weapons.

Those rods work out as a bit over 3 *kilos* each. And at 300 m/s,
that's gonna have the recoil from *hell*. As in giving a 100 kilo
person a 10 m/s backwards momentum. Messy.

And the "muzzle energy" will be 153 Joules.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:39:47 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:


>	Chill pill. The FAQ isn't saying discussions of Virus is one of the
>things to avoid here. Translated from colloquial english, I believe
>Mr Mooney was attempting to convey the following thoughts:
>
>	1. "Gulp!" Surprise/consternation at this topic being raised.
>	2. "Haven't you read the FAQ" This information is available in the
>FAQ.
>	3 "(Virus being one of those things to avoid here!)" Virus is a very
>touchy subject, along the lines of fractional lightspeed kinetic
>projectiles, and your question may raise a few flames, hence my
>concern (see 1.) at this topic being raised.

Dave has interpreted my meaning spot on. As an example witness the
spreading flames on the validity of GURPS Traveller. IMNSHO all the
variants of Traveller are valid - we just need to be careful not to wind
people up by phrasing comments ineptly.

On reflection, my original post was phrase ineptly, for which i apologise.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:28:26 -0600
From: The Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon

I don't see the problem here - for two reasons.

a) GURPS is an alternate timeline. Not the central one. Marc has said
so. Loren has said so. The SJG site says so. Knowing Loren, the book
will mention it at least once.

b) Breaking "canon" and/or changing the setting. Its been done three
times before. I'm a CT player...and I haven't been real fond (or not as
fond) of the versions that followed. Personally, TNE made me mad, by
invalidating a great deal of the stuff that I held dear. I didn't like
the rules, the tech, the setting. In a big way for me, it was not really
Traveller......so what!!! Its a game. I muttered a little to myself, and
life went on...I used a few things from MT and TNE, but cheerfully went
on in the CT setting.

The point is, we should all be adults about this. GURPS Traveller, even
if it ends up being the "only" published Traveller, will no more kill
CT, MT, TNE or T4 for the people that use such systems...anymore than
TNE really "killed" CT...just play what you want to play.

Finally, I resent the implication that some have made that one of the
versions (either CT, MT, TNE, or T4) are inherently "better" and "more
canon" that the others. That is a matter of OPINION, nothing more. GURPS
Traveller will excite some people. It will piss others off. I would ask
the latter group to be mature about it, and voice their concerns in a
rational manner, while still politely encouraging their favorite
version.

For the record...I am guardedly optimistic about GT...I will rreserve
final judgement till I read it.

- -- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew, Christine, and Matthew Akins                               |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:44:38 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Virus and Vampire fleets. (fwd)

> >	2. "Haven't you read the FAQ" This information is available in the
> >FAQ.

	No, i havan't read the FAQ.  I am not sure where it is.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:57:11 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon

I don't get the problem.  Gurps Traveller is just a new set of rules.  I
you wan to use the old history and old problems then do so.  I think that
Gurps is just going to add some much needed flexability to the system
(IE:Character generation)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:47:06 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: IG Story?

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:05:07 -0800 Kenneth Bearden
<dreamer@brokersys.com> writes:
>So, what's the story with IG?  Are they going to make it?
>
>I noticed on the IG website that T4.1 was suspended indefinitely, as
>well as some other products.
>
>Kenneth.
>
>


Well, IG may fold, just as GDW (rest their souls) did.  With as many of
us who are clearly passionate about Traveller in ALL its incarnations,
the game will survive.  I, for one, am not worried about it!


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:02:50 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Booting non-canon junk off the list

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:24:37 -0800 J-Man <j-man@iname.com> writes:

>No matter what ideas I see on this 
>list,
>I'm still going to pick the ones I like and save them, and just 
>discard
>the rest.  Someone else will undoubtedly save some I didn't, etc..
>
>That's what this list is for, anyway, isn't it?  A forum to exchange
>ideas on our favorite Science Fiction RPG?
>

If we're honest with ourselves, I think we all do this.  

To quote the first rule of engineering:  If it works, use it!!!

The second rule of engineering:  If it doesn't, you beat on it till it
does!!

Hopefully, I will have my campaign background up on my web page soon.  It
is very non-canon, so it will be interesting to see what comments come
around.  (And everyone please know, I always welcome comment, even
negative!!)


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:09:43 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: links

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 01:07:36 -0500 jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
writes:
>Thanks for the link information.
>
>My page is at the following area.
>
>
>http://www.geocities.com/area51/labyrinth/2157/
>
>Please note that it is under heavy construction.
>
>And my first attempt at a web page.
>
>
>
>

Ahhh!  Another geocitizen!!

Don't feel bad, most pages are under constant re-fit, at least.  My page
is my first as well, and I can never find the time to add to it as often
as I'd like, so its rather sparse right now.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/.  

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:11:30 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Piracy : Sharing of Prizes

This document is issued to the players who hold a Letter of Marque from
Oberlindes Lines.

Prizes;

The following rules shall be in effect for operatives of Oberlindes acting
under a Letter of Marque.

When a prize is captured its value will be computed based on either net
salvage, or net sales price (after repair and crew medical or final costs
have been deducted) and shared with the capturing crew as follows;

50 shares to Oberlindes lines
10 shares to the overall Commanding Officer
5 shares to any subordinate Vessel Commanders, or troop leader of captain's
rank or higher.
2 shares each to the Vessel Executive officer and subordinate leader of any
troop contigent
1 share for each officer
1/3rd of a share for each non-officer present.

If a subcontractor is hired, shares equal to the above values shall be
awarded to the subcontractor en masse for them to share out as they see fit.

"Commanding Officer" shall apply tot he highest ranking leader of forces
within 5 light minutes.  Company officers take precedence over hired
forces, and ship captains over troop force captains.

In the event that an prize share recipient is rendered unconcious, their
share shall not be reduced.  If a prize recipient, through the
incapacitance of their superior, fulfills the role of a higher prize
category position, they shall be awarded the higher prize value, even if,
after action, they are returned to their prior position.  Note that any
such role must be filled in a legally correct manner.

Prize money is forfeit inthe event of violation of any of the Garushang
Agreements or for violations of company rules which jusify dismissal.

Prize recipients may choose to take their award in the form of cash, or in
terms of value of a captured prize, always assuming the Oberlindes share is
paid.


                       Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:08:58 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Islands Cluster

Chris Thrash's question brought another question to mind - what happened
to these happy little planets?

I haven't seen any development of Islands Cluster done since Trillion Credit
Squadron. How did they fare during the rebellion? Did Virus make an
appearance? Does no one know?

I built a TCS fleet for Sansterre in Islands Cluster (the Royal Sansterrean 
Navy), one thing I did was take some of the 10% of the fleet that had to 
be a tech level lower and made a cargo ship class that could use multiple jumps and make it from Islands to the Spinward Marches - I figured that even
if it operated at a loss, such a trade route would be a great advantage to
the people of Sansterre. The ship is all fuel, though...


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:55:45 -0600
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: Just a game?

Bolie IV commented:
>
>I thought this whole Traveller thing was a game... you know, for fun?
>I mean, basically all the background material is just made up... so
>what's the big deal if someone plays CT or G:T or MT or TNE or
whatever?
<snip>
>Time for everyone to just relax and get back into perspective...

No kidding! Folks, am I the only one to take note that having _two_
detailed backgrounds for the Imperium can provide double (at least)
the adventure opportunities? Who cares what the background is?
Wasn't that the whole point behind Marc's different Milieus that
most people thought would be a good idea?

How about a group of adventurers jumping at 10 diams while in
the middle of a slugfest with Lucan's forces only to come out of
Jumpspace in a universe in which the Rebellion never occurred?

Or, better yet, *give* 'em a light cruiser just after the 5th Frontier
War and have 'em misjump into the New Era universe.

Or how about letting the players be the ones discover a plot
to kill the Emperor, blow up a certain Duke's shuttle, then
read about it in an official TNS release from SJG? The
"cool" factor of just such an event can't be beat!

Isn't it the gamemaster's responsibility to ensure the 
_players_ (i.e. your friends) have fun? Jeez. Marc,
Loren, you guys keep putting out the stuff that's helped
me make some good times with my friends and I'll
keep buying it. I couldn't care less about which
background it's about. By the way, you two, thanks
so very, very much for all the years of fun! You would
be amazed as to what effect Traveller has had on some
people's lives (including mine).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:18:57 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Free Traders and Trade Stations

> My personal opinion is that the Free Traders that have local agents on
> retainer along their trade routes are the solvent ones.
>
> Ian Whitchurch

That is just as damaging to "canon" as any unmanned Xboat then.  It has
basically the same effect as starship automation...  Having NPCs doing
something that the players should do.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:59:27 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon

> I don't get the problem.  Gurps Traveller is just a new set of rules.  I
> you wan to use the old history and old problems then do so.  I think that
> Gurps is just going to add some much needed flexability to the system
> (IE:Character generation)

Well, this is one of those things that everybody has their own opinions on.
 First off, I'm not really a fan of the GURPS rules set, so right off, so
any "rules" (character generation or otherwise) will mean nothing to me. 
Second, a big part of Traveller (to me) is the character generation system.
 That is the one thing that stuck out the most to me when I saw CT for the
first time (and the main thing that pissed me off when it came to TNE).

But that's merely my opnion.

On the other hand, I think everybody has to take a deep breath here and
relax.  If GURPS Traveller, or Virus, or any other Traveller concept or
item gets you so damned pissed off...  You should probably get out a bit
more or at the very least relax a little bit.

Canon is nothing when it comes down to it.  It was something that was
invented by a group of folks (mostly like you or me) that they thought
would be a good background to play in.  I'm sure none of them ever thought
that years later there'd be people treating the background they wrote for
their adventures and for their articles in the JTAS as the word of God.  In
some cases, that's what you people sound like.

Who cares if something was validated in a really hard-to-get, out of print
book that's ten+ years old???  Most likely, whoever wrote it wrote it so
his gaming group could have fun.  It just happened to get published.  If
20+ years of published history means that nothing new can be added, and
there has to be bad feelings if something gets invalidated in any way then
maybe some people need something more in their life besides Traveller.

Up until the last couple years I didn't own a lot of Traveller books.  Back
then, the fun of Traveller was rolling up characters, rolling up countless
starsystems and trying to figure out how come an Atmosphere 0 world has
10,000,000,000 inhabitants, while right next door and Atmosphere 6 world
has 10.  There was no concept of canon for me then.  There were some
scattered Library Entries and a couple of pages on the major "canon"
topics: jump drive, the 3I, megacorps, the Xboats...  But I wanted to play
the game as I wanted to play.  Then, and now I will freely throw out canon
if I feel it is stupid, or if I feel my ideas are better...

Canon makes many on this list completely rigid and inflexible.  Is it my
fault that the GDW people were writing their supplements before the full
effects of computers on the future could really be gauged?  Is it my fault
that they didn't put faith that computers would be capable of automating
many functions of starships???  Nope.  Is it my fault that DGP painted a
vast sweep of the future while certain concepts didn't exist yet, or
weren't as well known?  Nope.

The problem is that the world is a completely different place than it was
20 years ago when GDW did most of their work, or 10 years ago when DGP did.
 To me, the canon view of Solomani is a hilarious charicature born out of
the days of late cold war paranoia.  The views of all the races, human or
otherwise, are really just as shallow as adding wrinkly foreheads so the
television viewing audiences can tell the difference between one race and
another.

It's just more "valid" because this is _our_ rpg, and we think that we have
more of a handle on culture and hard science...  When in reality, the
handle we have on hard science boils down to exactly the same kind of
handwaving and after-the-fact explanations as to why the modern view of the
future is wrong and someone's view of the future 20 years ago was right. 
Our handle on culture boils down to sweeping generalizations and
charicatures or the other end of the spectrum to niggling little details
about individual races that are just oh-so-clever...

Just keep repeating to yourself that it's only a game...  It's only a
game...  You are free to do with this game whatever you want.  Be as
creative or as rigid as you want.  However, when all is said and done, it
isn't reality.  Nobody here lives in the Imperium.  Nobody here has the
capability to predict the way the future's really going to be, and I'll be
willing to bet it'll look nothing like any of the versions of Traveller
that we've seen.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:08:47 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Islands Cluster

> From: Walter G. Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu>
> 
> I haven't seen any development of Islands Cluster done since Trillion
Credit
> Squadron. How did they fare during the rebellion? Did Virus make an
> appearance? Does no one know?

Yes, actually, there is some stuff in the Regency Sourcebook about these
subsectors.

Not alot of info.  About a page and a half of background with a short
timeline, and a page of subsector data.  Not very meaty, but there has been
some work done.

------------------------------

Date: 26 Mar 1998 10:31 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

Reading Brian's post, I had a thought: why not use a section 
of the Player-Character sheet as the 'passport' area?  The
remainder of the sheet (history, career etc) would be the
full Imperial "file" on that person.

Opinions?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:39:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: LoPop Worlds

Okay, here's an interesting question for folks:

The population level required for Low Population (Lo) trade code status
in various editions of Traveller seems to be different.  At a glance at
the table, for MT and T4 a population exponent of 3- qualifies; for TNE
it seems to be 4-.  My edition of CT is so old there is no Lo code.  :)

I suppose that the argument could be made that the worse conditions in
most of Charted Space during TNE means small worlds don't have the big
Imperial economic net to fall back on, so bigger worlds are Lo coded.
Does anyone else have other references for Lo being one way or another?

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:55:05 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Canonical silliness.

My upcoming campaign, set in the Lunion subsector of 1105, uses the
following elements:

CORPS 2nd ed rules.
Brilliant Lances for starship combat.
FFS2 to build thise ships, after which I figure the BL hit locations.
Worlds detailed by a combination of Accrete and the book World Building.
At least half the stellar data changed.

Also, the 5FW is going to have a very different ending.

Douglas E. Berry, Sjolidsforingi,
Njosnadeild
Geimdeild sambandshersins

(Commander)
(Special Intellegence Section)
(Confederation Forces: Space)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:39:29 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Free Traders and Trade Stations

At 09:18 AM 3/26/98 -0500, you wrote:

Ian wrote:
>> My personal opinion is that the Free Traders that have local agents on
>> retainer along their trade routes are the solvent ones.

>That is just as damaging to "canon" as any unmanned Xboat then.  It has
>basically the same effect as starship automation...  Having NPCs doing
>something that the players should do.

Not really, if done right.  Since paying a faceless broker is fairly
standard in trade campaigns, why not flesh them out a little and make them
NPCs?  I've been thinking of loosely basing a broker in my Lunion campaign
on Londo Mollari from Babylon 5.. that should be fun.

The advantage is that eventually you can use the well known NPC as an
adventure hook.  When the players arrive to discover the broker's office
empty, his home ransacked, and a mysterious message left in their drop box...

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:03:41 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Islands Clusters questions

At 08:27 PM 3/25/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Marinus van der Lubbe

This one always cracks me up.  van der Lubbe was a mildly retarded Dutch
socialist who was framed for the Reichstag fire in 1933.

>2.  Is an entire planet really named after Berlichingen im
>Baden-Wurtemberg?  It's the only one I can find, but I've been there (or at
>least to Schoental up the road) and it's dinky, if pleasant.

Why not?

- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:11:06 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Automation: Request for Brainstorm

At 03:38 PM 3/25/98 EST, you wrote:
>Request for Brainstorm
>
>I need brainstorm ideas as to why ships _need_ a crew
>for such things as piloting, astrogation, sensors,
>comms, and engineering.
>
>Oh boy, when it rains, it pours.  Just today two players
>confronted me over starship automation, starting with the
>Xboat automation question and moving to "normal" ship
>automation.
>
>Even today ships can be fully automated, and often the
>crew just sit and scratch themselves while the computers
>do all the work.

Note the word "often."  When my players bring this up, I ask them "would
you trust a robot to perform surgery on you?  Hoping that the guy who
programed it included all the possible scenarios?"

A modern example of the truely terrifying possibilities of GIGO is the Sgt.
York Air Defence Gun.  Designed to be computer controlled, the vehicle's
radar was designed to home in on rotating blades (like a helicopter) and
engage them.  At the demostration, the radar ignore the big, fat drone
hovering directly in front of it, and instead slewed the turret around
(bringing half the Pentagon brass into deadly peril) and instead engaged
the exhaust fan on a latriene.  You see, the program only knew to look for
rotors as the appeared from directly beneath...

>"So why do spaceships need a pilot and sensors guy?
>Why do starships need an astrogator?  Why do they need any
>crew at all?"

The same reason airliners need a crew.  To handle the very tricky bits like
take-off and landing, and to handle any emergenices.

>I had to agree to all their premises, but they were trying
>to use that to box me into allowing their ships to have full
>automation.  I said no, because it changes the nature of
>the game.  Thus one captain can travel almost as a passenger
>in his ship, and needs only a token crew or just a Jack-of-
>all-Trades dude, in case of emergency.  Or worse, if the
>astrogator were to be eaten by local cannibals, no problem,
>the ship's computer can pinch-hit for him.

Let them.  Then introduce a bug.  The jump drive is seriously out of whack,
but the engineering sub-routine that monitors that particular element has a
flaw that has caused it to just keep telling the main status board that
everything is just fine.  The missile launcher swears it fired a missle,
and detonation will occur in five minutes, but the missile and it's nuclear
warhead, are still nestled snuggly in the launch rack.

The computer could replace the astrogator for a short time, but having a
human to double check always helps.  A friend of mine is an instructor at
Ft. Benning GA.  He teaches land navigation to would-be infantry officers.
His favorite trick is to let us the GPS unit until they are in the middle
of nowhere, then take away the batteries..  He says that watching the
canidates struggling to remember how to read a map and use a compass is
quite amusing.

>Is there in-jump maintenance?
>   -are there jumpgrid stability issues?

IMTU, Jump is a time to do the books, maitain non-critical items that
aren't directly involved with maintaining jump or life support, and other
things that detract from adventuring when they reach the planet.

>Astrogator : fiddles with the flight plans?
>             station-keeping tasks in jump?

The Astrogator is more the jump pilot.  He keeps a close watch on all the
effects of jump, on both ship and crew, and watches the sensors as breakout
approches to try and estimate when the ship will re-enter real space.

>Pilot      : fiddles with the maneuver controls + jump field?

During jump, the pilot should be reading up on the target system (shipping
regulations, prohibited refueling points, etc..) and doing maitainence.  He
also should be rubbing elbows with the passengers.

>Engineer   : fiddles with the drives?

The manuver drive, and also with non-critical systems that can be repaired
from inside.

>Sensor     : ?

Nothing to do.  So most ships hire a senor operator who also can act as
ship's steward.

>Captain    : fiddles with the crew's minds?

Does the books.  Prepares the monthly payment, or report to the owners,
figures the exact profit, updates the ship's fund, goes through news
reports looking for hints for what to buy on the target world, rubs elbows
with the passengers.

These things are activities that, while they need to be done, don't really
make good role-playing fodder.  (Ref: "OK Dave, your astrogator is on duty,
what do you do?"  Dave: "Since we might break out of jump today, I'm
watching the sensors for eight hours.")

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry   dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/    |
|--------------------------------------|
| "Oscar Wilde only wishes he was this |
|  gay!"        -Crow T. Robot, MST3K  |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #315
**********************************

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subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 26 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 316



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Islands Cluster
Re: Harold, It's Getting Warmer!
Re: Harold, It's Getting Warmer!
Re: Canonical silliness.
Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5
Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon
Re: Just a game?
Re: Islands Clusters questions
Re: links
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #312
Re: Canonical silliness.
Confessions of a CT junkie.
Re: <Sigh>
Re: Heretics Jump Drives
Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures
OFF TOPIC - Iain Banks
Traveller:  The Game System.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:04:58 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Islands Cluster

At 09:08 AM 3/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Chris Thrash's question brought another question to mind - what happened
>to these happy little planets?

According to the Regency Sourcebook, the clusters were occupied by the
Regency and forcibly pacified.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:23:45 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Harold, It's Getting Warmer!

DAVID CALLUM Moodie wrote:

>> So, G:T is going to be more "Traveller" than either MT or
>> TNE was, as far as *I* am concerned.  Your milage may
>> vary.
>
>What's to say that Loren and Co. wont have something radical 
>take place in G:T that separates it from CT just as much as 
>MT & TNE?

   Mr. Moodie wins the Thinking Sophont Award for today.  As his prize, Mr.
Moodie's opinion is law for 24 hours.

   There are no guarantees.  If anything, Loren's hints imply that indeed
the GURPS Imperium will be a very troubled place.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:18:18 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Harold, It's Getting Warmer!

In my continuing effort to become the only subject on this list, Nicholas
Sylvain wrote:

>My Dear GM Harold Hale remarks that the temperature is rising,
>before pouring some gasoline on the flames.  I apologize in 
>advance for any pouring of my own.

   I'm not sure why you see it that way, but then I have noted that I tend
to speak my mind when I would probably best be served keeping my big yap
shut (ancient American slang phrase), so what the heck, let's make it
double, I'm not driving home tonight.

>>Classic Traveller fans of course have *absolutely* no basis for
>>crowing about the legitmacy of the G:T story line over that "nasty 
>>Virus thing Dave Nilsen imposed on us" (or "Loren's Rebellion"), yet
>>I already sense that there are those among them who are or are
>>preparing to do that very thing.
>
>Excuse me, but I won't pretend to be the least bit sorry that G:T
>will take up the legacy of CT and carry it forward.  

   The legimate *Storyline Canon* legacy of classic Traveller is
MegaTraveller.  That is as it was and will always be.  If Loren wants to
write an interesting variant that goes in another direction, on principle
that's fine with me.

>I accept that
>various people for various reasons decided to dramatically
>change the direction of the official Traveller background. That
>being said, I have never liked what MT and TNE did with the
>CT background, and won't pretend to like it.

   As I have noted to various individuals in the past, if I could be given
the ability to time travel, one of the many stops I would make would be to
Normal, Illinois in 1986 to convince Loren, Marc, Frank, et al not to write
anything that would destroy the Imperium.  Story-wise, there were a lot of
other directions to go that would have accomplished what MegaTraveller set
out to do without all the damage.  Failing that, my next stop would have
been back to Normal, Illinois in 1992 to convince Dave Nilsen, Frank, Loren
et al that while the TNE mechanics were worth doing, the New Era storyline
would work much better if it took place in the context of a setting that was
further along in its recovery.  I would also humbly suggest that Virus be
put to a few college Computer Engineering profs over at Illinois State for
reality checking or better yet some other explanation for the Collapse be
thought up.

   **All that said**, those were not my creative calls to make, and I accept
in its entirety the basic Storyline Canon as published by GDW.

>"Legitimacy" (whatever that means) is a non-sequitur to me.  I
>prefer CT and (hopefully) G:T over MT and TNE -- that's it.

   Why have a "legitimate" storyline?  As previously stated, unlike AD&D and
other games, we as a collection of Traveller fans do not have the game
mechanics to unite us--we are 'we' because we have this shared story about
something called the 'Known Universe'.  Take that foundation away and we are
nothing but a collection of sci-fi RPG fans that spell 'Traveller' funny
(apologies to those in the UK).  You prefer that portion of the timeline
that revolves around the Third Imperium--cool.  It is a neat place to
adventure.  I prefer to do things later down the timeline--also cool (for
me).  The G:T Variant while perhaps interesting to some, is not part of the
shared story.

>I will crow with joy from now until doomsday that CT fans will
>now get a background that builds upon what we know and
>love.  I may even dance and caper around a bonfire and burn
>my copy of Rebellion Sourcebook, who knows.

   The background that "CT fans know and love" never went away--at least the
GDW Secret Police never came by my house to confiscate my classic Traveller
collection--people to this day are using MT and TNE game mechanics to play
in the "classic" setting.

   As for the balance of your comments, that is just what I was referring to
in my previous post--an attitude that there is something being "won" here by
the CTers.  I seem to recall similar statements of victory in 1996 by
others, followed by the usual denunciations when what was presented as "the
Messiah" didn't live up to the lofty expectations of those proclaiming victory.

>>Sorry, but in your attempts at reaching for something that will "bring
>>back the Imperium" (as if it were something tangible that was taken
>>from you as a child), you are becoming Canon Storyline heretics--the 
>>thing that you supposedly hate the most.
>
>*self control mode ON*
>
>With due respect, Harold, this borders on arrogant presumption
>and insult.  

   My comments were directed at those hard-core CTers who treat *everything*
published after 1986 as though it were some sort of heresy (forgetting that
there was a great deal revealed in MT and TNE (even "T4", when it isn't
contradicting GDW's work) that is of relevance to the classic Traveller
setting).  By trumpeting G:T, they show their hypocrisy.

>Whether you admit it or not, something was taken from
>me, as a CT fan -- the chance to see the background that I know,
>like, and prefer, continue and grow.  Instead, it was radically
>altered.  Now, I get that back, and I'm tickled!

   Like I said, I wasn't aware that anyone was forciably removing classic
Traveller material from people's homes.  I'm glad they missed me.  As for
"continuing to grow", how?  All that Loren has done is snipped a bit off the
Traveller tree and grafted on to GURPS.  That's not the same thing.
Continuing to write material for the classic setting involves writing about
events, people, places or things that are around before the events of
1116--G:T covers events after that.

>If MT and TNE fans get more background for their preferred
>setting, then good for them!  I'll understand and be happy for
>them.

   As will we...of course some of us are continuing the storyline and
background development of TNE (and MT and CT) without the help of an
Imperium Games or a SJG.

>If disliking the MT and TNE backgrounds is heresy, then tie me
>to the stake and fire up the Bar-B-Que.  If someone else wants
>to be a different sort of storyline heretic, then goody for them,
>I don't "supposedly" hate them.

   You're missing the point--I didn't say that anyone should be forced to
like TNE or even use the accompanying background story--merely acknowledge
that there is something called Storyline Canon and that it includes *all*
the material published by GDW, not just those parts you prefer.  What people
run in their own campaigns is their own business.  Storyline Canon provides
us with a set of common reference points that IMHO are vital to the
Traveller community at large.

>>... G:T isn't Traveller, it's based on Traveller...
>
>When I think of Traveller, *to me*, I think of the CT, 3rd
>Imperium background (and to a degree, the Spinward
>Marches.)  That, *for me*, is the heart of what Traveller
>means to me.  Not ship design systems, or task rules, or the
>number of sides to a die.

   But Traveller has grown beyond that definition to include additional
story development and background material.  It is no appropriate to define
Traveller just by the material presented in classic Traveller than it is the
define a long running television series by a single episode or a single season.

>So, G:T is going to be more "Traveller" than either MT or
>TNE was, as far as *I* am concerned.  Your milage may
>vary.

   Nick I respect how you feel about this subject, but it's just not true.
G:T is going to be by definition *GURPS*.  That Loren wants to introduce
GURPS players to Traveller is wonderful and what he has planned should make
for interesting reading for both GURPS and Traveller players alike.  But it
is not classic Traveller reborn.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:36:38 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Canonical silliness.

dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> My upcoming campaign, set in the Lunion subsector of 1105, uses the
> following elements:
> 
> CORPS 2nd ed rules.
> Brilliant Lances for starship combat.
> FFS2 to build thise ships, after which I figure the BL hit locations.
> Worlds detailed by a combination of Accrete and the book World Building.
> At least half the stellar data changed.
> 
> Also, the 5FW is going to have a very different ending.
> 
> Douglas E. Berry, Sjolidsforingi,
> Njosnadeild
> Geimdeild sambandshersins
> 
> (Commander)
> (Special Intellegence Section)
> (Confederation Forces: Space)

OK, I'll bite.  How is the 5FW going to end?

- -- 
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:39:28 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5

Somehow, we got an issue of 'Design News' an engineering trade rag. I was
idly leafing through it, and came across the following:

"March 2, 1998 Design News

                   Technology bulletin 

          Late developments that shape engineering

                    Gary Chamberlain, Senior Editor 



   'Radar flashlight' detects human presence through walls,
                            doors 

 A prototype RADAR flashlight that can detect a human's presence through
walls and doors should one day make law-enforcement officers' jobs safer.
The patent-pending device uses a radar and a specialized signal processor
to detect movement by discerning respiration from up to 3m away. No
physical connection exists between the subject and radar. The development
is part of a family of technologies that also detects heartbeat, according
to Gene Greneker, a principal research scientist at the Georgia Tech
Research Institute (GTRI). "Based on respiration signature alone, the
flashlight allows us to detect a stationary individual behind a solid
wooden door, or standing four feet behind an eight-inch block wall,"
Greneker explains. The device uses a narrow radar beam of about 15 to 20
degrees to detect body movement generated by breathing. Other potential
applications include: locating people in a room during a hostage
situation, and finding survivors in the rubble of earthquakes or
accidents. "

wow! A life-form detector! Uhh is that TL-15 or 16? Maybe
he-whose-name-is-not-to-be-uttered was right. The Rule of Man _was_
very high tech!;-)

(Yeah, yeah, yeah...I can think of a number of ways this thing can be
spoofed right off the bat, too...a $29 radar detector would tell you
you're being probed, and jamming it wouldn't be all that much harder.)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:45:03 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Michael Koehne wrote:

> 
>	The decission was made some times ago and
> 	probately not even SJ could change it now. 

Producing an alternate timeline was also a condition of SJG's license to
produce _any_ Traveller products, IIRC from the original announcements. 

Hmmm...given a choice of killfile inhabitants, I could easily choose
between you and Loren; but I'd rather not.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:41:33 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Just a game?

Bolie Williams IV writes:

>I thought this whole Traveller thing was a game... you know, for fun?
>I mean, basically all the background material is just made up... so
>what's the big deal if someone plays CT or G:T or MT or TNE or whatever?

   The short answer is that is isn't a big deal.  The more people playing
any of the above and less AD&D or Magic: The Ripoff, the better.

>It's one thing if someone attacks someone else's ideas but it's
>another thing to get all huffy just because someone is making up
>stuff for their Traveller game that's different from yours.

   I would defend the right of any referee to insert into his own
"homegrown" campaign little orange people that eat Vargr and terrorize the
Imperium with their constant references to Strephon as "a big puff pastry",
just as I would defend the MegaTraveller storyline from those who would
rather it become "just another possible canon storyline".

>Time for everyone to just relax and get back into perspective...

   I think it is important to remember that the discussions about canon,
Canon, Storyline Canon, etc. are at a level above those that have apparent
significance to the average referee or player, but they are important,
because we are talking about the soul of Traveller.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:50:46 -0600
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Islands Clusters questions

You wrote:
>
> >2.  Is an entire planet really named after Berlichingen im
> >Baden-Wurtemberg?  It's the only one I can find, but I've been there
> (or at
> >least to Schoental up the road) and it's dinky, if pleasant.
> 
As is the planet...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:39:23 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: links

At 01:07 AM 3/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks for the link information.
>
>My page is at the following area.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/area51/labyrinth/2157/

Geocities doesn't seem to believe in that location.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:45:35 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #312

At 12:32 AM 3/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:10:13 PST
>> From: "Nicholas Sylvain" <n_sylvain@hotmail.com>
>> Subject: Harold, It's Getting Warmer!
>> 
>> My Dear GM Harold Hale remarks that the temperature is rising,
>> before pouring some gasoline on the flames.  I apologize in 
>> advance for any pouring of my own.
>> 
>> >Classic Traveller fans of course have *absolutely* no basis for
>> >crowing about the legitmacy of the G:T story line over that "nasty 
>> >Virus thing Dave Nilsen imposed on us" (or "Loren's Rebellion"), yet
>> >I already sense that there are those among them who are or are
>> >preparing to do that very thing.
>> 
>> I will crow with joy from now until doomsday that CT fans will
>> now get a background that builds upon what we know and
>> love.  I may even dance and caper around a bonfire and burn
>> my copy of Rebellion Sourcebook, who knows.
>
>
>RIGHT ON! my CT brother <<HUGE GRIN>>
>
>Please,  I just about fell out of my chair ! ....(:-P
>
>I touched the Rebellion Sourcebook.. ONCE! 
>When I came to my friends said that I passed out and went into convulsions
>with foam coming
>out of my mouth.
>
>> When I think of Traveller, *to me*, I think of the CT, 3rd
>> Imperium background (and to a degree, the Spinward
>> Marches.)  That, *for me*, is the heart of what Traveller
>> means to me.  Not ship design systems, or task rules, or the
>> number of sides to a die.
>> 
>> So, G:T is going to be more "Traveller" than either MT or
>> TNE was, as far as *I* am concerned.  Your milage may
>> vary.
>> 
>> - --
>> Nicholas Sylvain (n_sylvain@hotmail.com)
>> Assistant Prosecuting Attorney
>> Montgomery County, Ohio
>
>
>I also agree but I would take one note .
>
>I love the Spinward Marches!  We have had many a great game setting there!
>
>At times I think that I live in the Spinward Marches.
>
>Long Live CT & to some extent G:T which is trying to get back to that CT
>thing.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:43:38 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Canonical silliness.

At 08:55 AM 3/26/98 -0800, you wrote:
>My upcoming campaign, set in the Lunion subsector of 1105, uses the
>following elements:
>
>CORPS 2nd ed rules.
>Brilliant Lances for starship combat.
>FFS2 to build thise ships, after which I figure the BL hit locations.
>Worlds detailed by a combination of Accrete and the book World Building.
>At least half the stellar data changed.

Whoops! almost forgot.. Dirtside and Stargrunt II for large scale battles.

Evil Sword Worlder Doug.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:53:20 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Confessions of a CT junkie.

I am a CT junkie, unashamed and proud.  I love the setting above all
others, and have very fond memories of playing the early adventures with
Craig.

That being said, I have no qualms about buying and using other products in
the Traveller line for my game.  MT?  World Builder's Handbook, SOM, Alien
books, Hard Times, Arrival Vengeance, Referee's Companion, Rebellion
Sourcebook.. All gave me useful material to steal.  TNE?  FFS1, the Regency
Sourcebook.  T4?  Aliens Archive, Emperor's Arsenal, CSC, FFS2, PE, IS..
the point of this little rant is this:

We are all very different people, with different styles of role-playing.
When Hero went to the Fuzion system for Champions, I didn't scream and
complain about the "death" of Champions.. I just kept playing my 4th
edition.  Same for Traveller.  I probably won't play GURPS:T.. I prefer
CORPS.  But i will buy the books to a> support the line, and b> to mine it
for useful ideas.
- --
+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:59:56 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: <Sigh>

Loren Wiseman writes:

>The contract between Steve Jackson Games and Marc Miller's Far Future
>Enterprises specifies two things about the background: No Imperium-wide
>Rebellion, and no Virus. Steve Jackson wanted it that way _AND_ Marc Miller
>wanted it that way (which gives you a clue how he feels in the matter).

   Well that clears up the question as to whether or not SJG would be
interested in publishing a TNE-storyline related sourcebook (the answer it
seems is a flat 'no').  There had been some debate about that on the TNE-list.

>>	Third - Its my opinion, that G:T and what Loren is doing with
>>	Traveller is a bad thing and only WarHamster would be worse.

   FYI: Does the phrase Magic: Traveller mean anything to anyone? <shudder>

>All I ask is that everything remain reasonably civilized.

   One always enters these things hoping that everyone can debate without
making it personal--attacking ideas with facts and logical tools and not
resorting to attacking the people behind the ideas.  It rarely happens here,
but one hopes.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:50:53 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Heretics Jump Drives

 eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:

>>>Ok, I've seen that sort of effect in several books. Crews will want to
>>>"pop" out of jump to get their bearings occasionally, right?
>
>>SHHHHHHH!!!   You'll give it away!!  **chuckle**
>
>Hee! Hee!

You mean there's something *Fishy* about this?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:58:23 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures

 Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>

>I haven't found a way so far to make .pdf files. Encapsulated Postscripts
>... have to look if it is possible. If you prefer those formats, I'll try
>to make them (as I don't want someone to be disadvantaged by Win*&$#!!)

Most Adobe Products will generate them (Illustrator, Acrobat Exchange,
PhotoDeluxe....). I generate them through the Acrobat printer driver from
Exchange using my Mac.

EPS has cross platform problems (different previews for Mac/PC) and ISTR
that Corel Draw generates confused EPS files occasionally.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:21:12 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC - Iain Banks

Those of you who like Iain Bank's work may want to check out:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/d.clayton2/

It mentions the new non-Culture SF novel, Inversions, due 4 June 98.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:26:20 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Traveller:  The Game System.

james a clem wrote:

> Well, IG may fold, just as GDW (rest their souls) did.  With as many of
> us who are clearly passionate about Traveller in ALL its incarnations,
> the game will survive.  I, for one, am not worried about it!

That's true.  I've got enough Trav stuff to play the rest of my life.  I'll
probably never play it all.

But, I am tired of playing a broken game system.  I've got this
mis-matched, stuck together rules system incorporating the best parts of
each of the four editions.  Actually, it's the T4 system, using my task
system and the best things from the other three systems.

I'm tired of always having to fix something.  Traveller takes so much
work.  I love the setting and the universe--that's why I've stuck with
it--but it takes so much damn time to play a game of Traveller as opposed
to some other RPGs.

I could just pick a system--say, the CT system--and exclusively play with
that, but I have a problem in that I think the T4 system is the best one
yet (after you fix what needs fixing--like the task system).  So, I'm
unhappy with any of the Traveller systems as is.

This is why I was so looking forward to T4.1.  My hopes were to get it,
read it, and be so pleased with it that I would use it
exclusively--adapting all other Traveller material to it.

Now, it looks like T4.1 won't be published.

I pulled out my Star Wars game stuff last night--now, there's a game.  It's
simple, clean, and probably one of the best game systems on the market.

It's a different type of game than Traveller, a Space Opera as opposed to
Hard Core Science Fiction, but the books and supplements are put together
so well.

They are easy to understand.  They look great.  And, you don't get all of
the contradictory rules and bugs that has plagued Traveller's four
editions.

I can pick up the one rule book for Star Wars, read it, and begin playing
without many of the problems I have with Traveller.

As a matter of fact, I haven't felt good about Traveller rules since the
DGP days--that was the only company, IG included, IMNSHO, which made
quality Traveller stuff.

Traveller, for me, is a case of the love of the universe outweighing the
dislike for the many thrown together, non-compatible rules systems the game
has had.

From the looks of things, I'd say Traveller's designers feel the same way.
They don't improve the game within the Traveller line.  They just design an
entirely new game and slap Traveller's name on it.

Look at all the systems:  CT, MT, TNE, T4, GURPS.  They are all different
animals.

If you look at Star Wars (or AD&D for that matter), it's second edition was
a vast improvement over its predecessor (as was AD&D over D&D and AD&D
Second Edition over regular AD&D) AND it built on the success of the
previous game--NOT INVENT THE WHEEL ALL OVER AGAIN.

With Star Wars, I noticed last night, that I can pick up one of the many
adventure modules in print, read it, and simply plug in the PC's and roll.
Like AD&D, everything I need to run that adventure is at my finger
tips--NPC's, vehicles, ships, deck plans, building drawings, etc.

The point here is that, as a GM, I can choose how much work to put into the
game.  I can just read the adventure and run it as is, or I can be a busy
little GM, change things around, and work as much as I want to customize
the adventure.

Star Wars adventures are like those good old AD&D modules--just plug and
play.

With a Trav adventure (most of the time), I've got to do a lot of
work--roll up adversaries and NPC's, create deck plans and building
floorplans, use vehicles and ships created with non-standardized design
systems....etc...WHAT A HEADACHE!

Let's fact it.  We are not in high school anymore where we can spend all
week on our games and play the weekend.

What is all of this rambling boiling down to?

Quality.

I believe the Traveller systems--all of them, not just T4--have a quality
problem.  Gamers know this--they know games, and they know when something
is not right.

I don't find myself tweaking with other games as much as I do with
Traveller.  I play AD&D pretty much straight out of the book.  I play Star
Wars, straight out of the book.  I play James Bond, straight out of the
book.

As a matter of fact, I can't think of one games system that I have put as
much work into.

Why?

I didn't think that they needed it.

Oh, sure.  There's a quick fix here and there.  All GM's that I know of do
this.  But, usually, for me, this is nothing more than a couple of pencil
marks in the margin.

No so with Traveller.  I have reams (litterally) of paper printed out with
rules fixes and rules replacements because I don't think what I buy from
Traveller's various publishers is good enough.

Other game companies can do it--why can't they do it for Traveller?

I want to buy a Traveller product again and feel like I'm getting my
money's worth.  I want DGP quality products.

And, I want a Traveller rules product that makes me want to use it as
is--not start fixing everything that is wrong with it.

In this regard, T4 has been a big dissappointment.  I've noticed several
long time veterans to this list get disgusted and leave (myself included).

There just comes a point where it is not worth arguing anymore, and you
pack up and leave.

In my opinion, this is why T4 is failing.

I hope IG does get it's act together.  I hope they start producing product
again--but at this point they should start T6.

They should put together all of the old Traveller editions, pick the best
of each system, and incorporte it all into one, big, great, awesome
Traveller rules system.

If they do this, and start producing with the quality of DGP, they might
have a shot.

But, I don't think this will happen.  And, I think I'm going to go play
Star Wars.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #316
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 26 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 317



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial ID
re: Islands Cluster
Re: Canonical silliness.
Re: Non-Canon Traveller?
Re: Alt game settings
Re: LoPop Worlds
Re: Gurps Traveller
Re: Boeing -- Boeing
Military Campaigns
Re: Canon Wars
Re: links
Re: Heretics Jump Drives
Re: Free Traders and Trade Stations
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: Free Traders and Trade Stations
Re: Canon Wars
Re: Traveller:  The Game System

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:41:29 -0500
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

An Imperial ID would be something you keep with you, presumably, and
will be made night-indestructible.  This leads to other possibilities:

An Imperial ID might also contain information about major long-term
medical conditions/ requirements/ treatment.  If these medical
conditions include prosthetics, it could be used for additional ID
verification.  It might even have your DNR order or corpse disposal
preferences.

Such use would be entirely optional, as mandating medical information
on the Imperial ID would be difficult to enforce and the treatments
involved are a matter of opinion, but might be customary.

	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com

"There's always one more bu6"


Of course, this means that there's some section of your card which is
not ROM.  This leads to interesting possibilities like "your medical
data doesn't correspond to your ID, let's make a more thorough
check", or the fact that someone has to have the ability to update
those sections -- who?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:30:32 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Islands Cluster

"Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:

>Chris Thrash's question brought another question to mind - what happened
>to these happy little planets?

From the TNE Regency sourcebook:

- - Wars raged between the major Islands powers between 1106 and 1140

- - 6 of the worlds failed between 1130 and 1140, and are quarantined in case
Virus was the cause.

- - The Regency annexed the Islands in 1140 to prevent Virus taking the
Islands as a foothold towards destroying the Regency.

- - In 1202 the Regency maintains a Peacekeeping force and the Quarantine
servie in the Islands. These often get drawn into conflicts as the Islands
are still trying to wipe each other out.

(Source Regency Sourcebook, p33 and p34)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:52:04 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Canonical silliness.

At 09:36 AM 3/26/98 -0800, you wrote:
>dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>> 
>> My upcoming campaign, set in the Lunion subsector of 1105, uses the
>> following elements:
 
>> Also, the 5FW is going to have a very different ending.

>OK, I'll bite.  How is the 5FW going to end?

IMTU, the "metal worlds are the subject of rival claims from the Imperium
and the Sverdaheimssambandid (what you weaklings call the Sword Worlds).
The min strtegic drive of the SWC is to seize a buffer zone of worlds in
the lunion subsector, and cut off the x-boat route to the Five Sisters,
while aiding the various independence movements.

My history will have a much tougher fight against the Zhodani, leaving the
Lunionese on their own.  Several worlds will be occupied by the SWC, and
the provide endless fun as traders try and make a buck there.

This all a long way off, since the characters have to survive the events
leading up to the war and the war itself.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:16:31 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Non-Canon Traveller?

Martin worte:
<martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Non-Canon

SNIP 

Which is and which isn't Traveller, then?

They're ALL Traveller.

We're all Traveller fans.

Go figure.

SNIP

Everthing was well said!...Well said.

I remember this type of discussion when I played...HORRORS!... that DnD
thingy game.  Come on guys!  Lets continue the development of neat ideas and
discourse on what science has to offer us as developers of our particular
Traveller universe.  No more CT-MT-TNE-T4-GT....who cares!? wars.  At this
rate, I end up scanning through the TML looking for interesting topics.
You're taking up space I can use elsewhere.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 06:47:01 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Alt game settings

At 12:42 AM 26/03/98 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Note: Rod-lobbers fire two inch thick, eight inch long stainless steel rods
>> at a rate of 1000 fps - and therefore are short range, but very effective
>> weapons.
>
>Those rods work out as a bit over 3 *kilos* each. And at 300 m/s,
>that's gonna have the recoil from *hell*. As in giving a 100 kilo
>person a 10 m/s backwards momentum. Messy.
>
>And the "muzzle energy" will be 153 Joules.

Funny, I get something very different:

ME = 1/2 * M * V^2
   = 1/2 * 3 * 300^2 (approx.)
   = 1/2 * 3 * 90000
   = 135000 Joules

BTW this gives a damage in TNE/FF&S1 of 24.


- ----------------------------------------------------------
"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 06:53:48 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: LoPop Worlds

At 09:39 AM 26/03/98 -0600, Steve Bonneville wrote:
>Okay, here's an interesting question for folks:
>
>The population level required for Low Population (Lo) trade code status
>in various editions of Traveller seems to be different.  At a glance at
>the table, for MT and T4 a population exponent of 3- qualifies; for TNE
>it seems to be 4-.  My edition of CT is so old there is no Lo code.  :)
>
>I suppose that the argument could be made that the worse conditions in
>most of Charted Space during TNE means small worlds don't have the big
>Imperial economic net to fall back on, so bigger worlds are Lo coded.
>Does anyone else have other references for Lo being one way or another?
>
In a Challenge Dave Nilsen said that the reason Lo pop went up to 4 in TNE
was that it was felt that a few 10s of thousands of people on a whole
planet was 'low', and that having the population of Normal, Illonis (I
think) running a planet was kind of scary.


- ----------------------------------------------------------
"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:33:32 -0600
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Gurps Traveller

Harold Hale wrote:
>   I think it is important to remember that the discussions about canon,
>Canon, Storyline Canon, etc. are at a level above those that have apparent
>significance to the average referee or player, but they are important,
>because we are talking about the soul of Traveller.

Harold, I am a big fan of your work. I've enjoyed your articles in Traveller
Chronicle, and you've always been, in my opinion, an intelligent participant
on this and other lists. So please don't take this the wrong way...

Soul of Traveller?

Traveller is a game. Period. It is without a doubt my favorite game, and in
my opinion the best RPG that is/has been/will be. But I think the
terminology "soul of Traveller" is spreading it a bit thick. There is no one
thing that you can point to in any of the versions that can be carried
through the other versions as a "theme" or "soul"...they are all so
different.

In a lot of ways, each version so far has been an entirely new game. Sure,
there are common threads - perhaps they have more in common than different.
But so much changed between each one too. On this list we find plenty of
people that carry aloft the flag of their version which is *right*, for
whatever reason.

If we took a poll, what would people give for their preferences:
  a) Are jump torpedos allowed?
  b) Do you have to have crew in ships?
  c) Was strephon assassinated?
  d) Which do you use, HEPlaR or thrusters?
  e) Do ships have High Energy Weapons and Repulsors?
  f) Are missiles contact weapons?
  g) Do Hivers like corndogs?
  h) Is the Imperium pro-psionic, or anti-psionic?
  i) Are the Zhodani our friends, or enemies?
  j) etc...

If we each describe "our Imperium" the descriptions will be quite
varied...so what IS this so called "soul of Traveller"...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:36:57 EST
From: DustyLV769 <DustyLV769@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Boeing -- Boeing

In a message dated 3/23/98 21:06:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, GDWGAMES@aol.com
writes:

<<  I keep running across rumors of
 a pilot pulling an Immelman with a B-17, but have never found solid proof. 
  >>

In the book "Samurai", by Saburo Sakai, he mentions a Japanese bomber pilot
who visited the fighter base where Sakai was stationed.  The pilot remarked
how much he wanted to fly Zeros instead of the Bettys he flew; his one wish
was to do a loop, he said.  A few days later, Sakai flew a mission where the
bomber pilot was hit and of cours, the Betty caught fire.  He described how
the bomber pilot put the burning bomber into a climb, getting it all the way
on its back in a half loop before it exploded.

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:35:23 -0600
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Military Campaigns

Anyone who's interested in running military adventures may want
to check out the following URL:

http://www.specialoperations.com/

It's dedicated to real-world Special Ops groups and has a 
link to just about every non-classified USArmy officer's/
soldier's handbook published (updated as of Jan '98).
Sniper tactics, explosives use, equipment, mobility
considerations, combat engineering, communications,
etc. are all covered in detail.  It's enough to add a lot of
background "color" to an adventure. Keep in mind, though,
that this is real military stuff and the military *loves*
abbreviations. Of course, that _is_ one way to drive PCs
nuts....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:08:47 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Canon Wars

The Evil Sword Worlder Doug said:

SNIP

(they) All gave me useful material to steal.

SNIP

A true Traveller player and referee at heart!  Can we now terminate this war
of words?

All the Traveller systems have something good and something bad.  Just use
what you like..FCOL.  

There is no Canon (cannon?) better than MY Canon.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:26:20 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: links

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:39:23 -0800 dberry@hooked.net writes:
>At 01:07 AM 3/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Thanks for the link information.
>>
>>My page is at the following area.
>>
>>http://www.geocities.com/area51/labyrinth/2157/
>
>Geocities doesn't seem to believe in that location.
>
>


I've tried this as well, the URL goes to the geocities pages, but if you
go through geocities neighborhoods sections, you can reach it.  Something
to take up with geocities.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:28:10 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Heretics Jump Drives

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:50:53 +0000 SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
writes:
> eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:
>
>>>>Ok, I've seen that sort of effect in several books. Crews will want to
>>>>"pop" out of jump to get their bearings occasionally, right?
>>
>>>SHHHHHHH!!!   You'll give it away!!  **chuckle**
>>
>>Hee! Hee!
>
>You mean there's something *Fishy* about this?
>
>Dom
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
>notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
>just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
>invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
>--Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --
>
>
>

Lets just say, J-space is not always a nice place, strange and wonderful
things happen there sometimes.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:30:47 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Free Traders and Trade Stations

> My personal opinion is that the Free Traders that have local agents on
> retainer along their trade routes are the solvent ones.

What about Tramp Free Traders?

> The other Free Traders tend to do *long* haul trade - the shipful of
> artworks from obscure Vilani artists, taken from worlds around the
Solomani
> Rim back to Vland, where the artists' great-n-grankids will pay far
better
> money for them.

Or, it could be that the "long" haul is moving stolen art work from Vland
to the Solomani Rim.

> Ian Whitchurch

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:22:44 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

> But, I am tired of playing a broken game system.  I've got this
> mis-matched, stuck together rules system incorporating the best parts of
> each of the four editions.  Actually, it's the T4 system, using my task
> system and the best things from the other three systems.
> 
> I'm tired of always having to fix something.  Traveller takes so much
> work.  I love the setting and the universe--that's why I've stuck with
> it--but it takes so much damn time to play a game of Traveller as opposed
> to some other RPGs.

Rules-wise, I've had very few problems with Traveller.  I play T4 straight
out of the book, with Mr. Miller's improved T4.1 task system as opposed to
the original.  The game flows very well, and the rules are a compliment, as
opposed to a hindrance to our playing.

> I pulled out my Star Wars game stuff last night--now, there's a game. It's
> simple, clean, and probably one of the best game systems on the market.

Keep in mind that Star Wars is one of the hottest franchises in history,
and as a consequence it has the ability to draw in tons of cash.  This
means there's alot more money going into things like R&D and playtesting.  

> It's a different type of game than Traveller, a Space Opera as opposed to
> Hard Core Science Fiction, but the books and supplements are put together
> so well.

Again, when you have alot of money to spend, you can hire better layout
people.

> As a matter of fact, I haven't felt good about Traveller rules since the
> DGP days--that was the only company, IG included, IMNSHO, which made
> quality Traveller stuff.

Well, considering the fact that DGP didn't publish a Traveller rules set,
this is a moot point.  

> Look at all the systems:  CT, MT, TNE, T4, GURPS.  They are all different
> animals.
> 
> If you look at Star Wars (or AD&D for that matter), it's second edition was
> a vast improvement over its predecessor (as was AD&D over D&D and AD&D
> Second Edition over regular AD&D) AND it built on the success of the
> previous game--NOT INVENT THE WHEEL ALL OVER AGAIN.

I won't look at Star Wars, as I don't have much experience with it.  D&D
and AD&D, however, I have much experience with and am a little more
qualified to compare.  Okay, look at D&D's original 3 rule books (the
digest-sized tan ones), and then look at AD&D.  They're alot more different
than you'd think.  The entire game got a complete rules overhaul. 
MegaTraveller did basically the same exact thing.  It kept certain ideas
from Traveller, and expanded on them and tried to make them a little more
robust and a little more clear.  Maybe some parts backfired, and maybe GDW
weren't really ready to do it when they did.

There are some minor differences between Traveller and MegaTraveller, but I
hardly think that GDW re-invented the wheel anymore than TSR did when they
created AD&D.  Modern day AD&D would look almost completely alien to
someone who had just purchased the little tan books, more alien than MT and
T4 would look to someone who just picked up the little black books for the
first time.

> Star Wars adventures are like those good old AD&D modules--just plug and
> play.

You're right.  Everyone knows the Star Wars universe.  Everyone knows the
way things worked in the middle ages.  You don't need as much background to
run either game.  Your players have probably seen Star Wars, or they've
probably read fantasy books and stories.  The need for sourcebooks to
create a coherent universe isn't as important, it's a bonus.  Traveller
doesn't have that advantage.  Sure, you can point to the Alien series and
say "That's what low-berth looks like," or you can conjure images from
Blade Runner when filling in the PCs on what an overpopulated mainworld
looks like...  But there's no one body of work to point to and say, "Hey,
this is Traveller!"

> With a Trav adventure (most of the time), I've got to do a lot of
> work--roll up adversaries and NPC's, create deck plans and building
> floorplans, use vehicles and ships created with non-standardized design
> systems....etc...WHAT A HEADACHE!

I do this with all adventures for all RPGs I run.  I can't stand published
adventures myself.  This is a case of different strokes for different
folks.

> I don't find myself tweaking with other games as much as I do with
> Traveller.  I play AD&D pretty much straight out of the book.  I play Star
> Wars, straight out of the book.  I play James Bond, straight out of the
> book.

Yes, and AD&D has 25 years of rules tweaking behind it, not to mention that
it's basically the leader in the RPG world.  AD&D has the advantage that
most role-players are broken in on it.  It is hellishly complicated and
top-heavy, but works because it's the common RPG "language".

As I stated, I can't really comment on Star Wars as I don't have any
playing experience with it.  James Bond, on the other hand, is both over
complicated and simplistic (at least the ol' VG version I have).  However,
it is interesting to note that both systems are based on extremely popular
movies.  The players already come into the games with an idea of what their
PCs can and cannot do...

> In this regard, T4 has been a big dissappointment.  I've noticed several
> long time veterans to this list get disgusted and leave (myself
included).
> 
> There just comes a point where it is not worth arguing anymore, and you
> pack up and leave.
> 
> In my opinion, this is why T4 is failing.

Want to know the truth of why T4 is failing?  White Wolf, TSR, other
companies, they all learned this one simple truth about the role-playing
world...

New blood.

You've got to get new players hooked on your game or you've lost entirely. 
T4 has a dated look about it.  T4's technology has a dated feel about it. 
Sure, many on the list are happy that T4 has a retro 50s-70s sci-fi feel. 
That's not what new role-players are into.  TSR has the advantage, as I
stated, that they are the game that most new role-players cut their teeth
on.  White Wolf has the advantage that they came along and made
role-playing "cool".  Star Wars has the advantage of name recognition, so
it's easy for them to pick up new players.

Traveller has no advantage in this field.  Traveller is trying to pander to
a user base that is shrinking every day.  That's the horrible truth.  I've
already lost users in my campaign because they didn't like the dated feel
of the game.

In a related note, a couple years ago (late 80s/early 90s) I had a friend
who went to an RPG convention.  They were breaking in several new ideas for
the AD&D line.  My friend saw the TSR guy in the parking lot and commented
that long term AD&D players might be turned off by the fact that most of
the new AD&D stuff had no real depth...  The TSR guy responded, "Well, if
they go, there'll be plenty more pimply 13 and 14 year olds to take their
place."

(I also want to note that I have nothing against AD&D or TSR.  Since WotC
has taken other, they seem to have made a complete turn around, and have
been putting out some really high-quality stuff)

> I hope IG does get it's act together.  I hope they start producing product
> again--but at this point they should start T6.

When did T5 come out?  Why didn't anyone tell me?

> They should put together all of the old Traveller editions, pick the best
> of each system, and incorporte it all into one, big, great, awesome
> Traveller rules system.

They should go back to basics (like T4 did) and make a simple, easy to use
system that has plenty of room for expansion.  They should modernize the
look and feel of the game.  And, yes, they should publish with a consistent
quality.  They need a new user base.  They can't keep pandering to a
role-playing market that, statistically, probably doesn't really exist
anymore.  This isn't meant to offend any of the old heads on the list.  I
think that this is just a cold, hard fact of life.  Most role-players are
in the high-school/college age group, especially most new role-players.  I
seem to be on the younger end of the Trav statistics on the TML (22 years
old).  All of my players are pretty young (20, 22, 23, 24, 27) and none of
them would have touched Traveller if it wasn't for me getting them
involved.

T4 started to do some good things (placed less emphasis on the military end
of the Traveller world, tried to encourage role-playing opportunities for
things other than "merchants and mercs" type campaigns), but it still has a
dated look and feel.

> But, I don't think this will happen.  And, I think I'm going to go play
> Star Wars.

Okay by me.  Have fun.  May the force be with you, and all that good jazz
:^)

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:49:13 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Free Traders and Trade Stations

> From: dberry@hooked.net
> >That is just as damaging to "canon" as any unmanned Xboat then.  It has
> >basically the same effect as starship automation...  Having NPCs doing
> >something that the players should do.
> 
> Not really, if done right.  Since paying a faceless broker is fairly
> standard in trade campaigns, why not flesh them out a little and make them
> NPCs?  I've been thinking of loosely basing a broker in my Lunion campaign
> on Londo Mollari from Babylon 5.. that should be fun.

I guess I really didn't make myself clear, or I misunderstood the post that
I responded to.

I had said that if you automated Xboats, you still have a reason to have
people on board a multi-purpose, privately owned trade-ship (ie, a Free
Trader).  At each stop, you need someone onboard that can make deals with
brokers, sell high, buy low, find passengers, and all that good stuff.

Someone responded that you wouldn't, because you'd have agents all along
the trade route that could handle the cargo and do all of this.  I restated
that I meant _Free Traders_ as in the lifestyle, as opposed to to the free
trader ship class.  My understanding of free traders is that they go from
world to world, talk to brokers, make deals, and continue on.  This sounds
what like you are saying.

I don't think, however, that Free Traders have _employees_ on each world to
do the dirty work of buying and selling for them.  This is where Megacorps
and such come in.  Automating Megacorp ships is no big deal, as they will
have almost no effect on PCs.  Leaving out automation means that you have
to make up a handwave as to why it's left out.  Adding automation means
that either a.] the player's ships are automated and they have no ability
to adventure in this framework (unacceptable) or b.] there are certain
limits on automation, ie, Xboats and big cargo ships are automated
completely, while scout ships, free traders, military vessels, and many
passenger ships are not.  At least to me, the reasons are perfectly sound.

> The advantage is that eventually you can use the well known NPC as an
> adventure hook.  When the players arrive to discover the broker's office
> empty, his home ransacked, and a mysterious message left in their drop
box...

I agree entirely.  This doesn't seem to be the original point of contention
though.  There's no reason that you can't have cool stuff like this and
have Xboats automated though.  There are plenty of grey areas.  It's not
like "Xboats are automated, so all ships are obviously automated!"  In the
real world, we have cruise missiles that are completely automated, but we
have airplanes that aren't.  We have passenger planes that are mostly
automated, and other planes that have almost no automation at all.  There
is a wide spectrum of automation in the world right now.  Several groups
are working on putting built in automation into cars to help deal with
traffic flow.  Our bank tellers are automated.  Our factories are automated
in many cases.  Our phone lines are automated.

This doesn't mean that every single thing in our world that can be
automated is, just like automated Xboats don't mean that every ship in the
Imperium is either.

Nevermind.  This is a really pointless argument that has probably gone on
far too long.

Chris
semo@pil.net  

> 
> +-------------------------------------+
> | Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
> |    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
> +-------------------------------------+
> | "I created the universe; give ME    |
> |  the gift certificate!!"            |
> |        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
> +-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:40:03 +0000
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Canon Wars

   Why do we need all this canon - cannot a MRL do a bit
better considering the tech levels involved.

   MRL instead of Canon 


   GURPS - I love the material for the various worlds  - they
always seem to have excellent material.  I have the basic set
and one day I may get to kinda like the system - but then we
can all live in hope.  So I shall want to get Traveller Gurps
Era Edition and the modules that they will hopefully publish.

   Generic Task / Game systems - I have a dislike of generic
game systems in general as they do not add the unique flavour
to a game.  

   I shall always remember Traveller as the game in which the
Game Master will utter "Two Dice" for a task test.  And who
sometimes reverted to shouting "Two Dice" in the middle of
a Chivalry and Sorcery Game.  So the impact of "Two Dice" 
Traveller is very profound and has an almost mystical level
to it.  Strange how customs and traditions can get to become
established around a roleplaying system.

  Sometimes ole Snake Eyes is a little more than Craps.



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:50:40 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System

   I've always seen that  AD&D is to D&D is what TNE was to CT.  The House
System was a direct discendant of CTs task system.  I've heard many times that
it's overcomplicated and/or unplayable and just haven't found this to be the
case.  I wasn't Mr Mega RPGer when I started w/ TNE...  
   The reason I liked TNE is because it's a ground up system.  Everything is
based on the same principles.  This introduced some flubs (high energy weapons
not possible, no PA turrets, no t-plates).  What problems did you find with
TNE rules, might I ask?
    I think the TNE rules could have been summarized better.   (sans task
descriptions and space combat can and should be under 2 pages)
    I agree about Star Wars.  It's a  simple and very well presented game (the
model of RPG presentation IMO).  Do you have or are u using the 2nd ed R&E?  

Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #317
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 26 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 318



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Confessions of a CT junkie.
Re: The Heretic Repents was Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: The Heretic Repents was Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: canon vs. Canon
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Canon argument
Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5
Re: Non-Canon
Re: canon vs. Canon
Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon
Re: Gurps Traveller
Re: Imperial ID
RE: Imperial ID (long)
Re: Traveller:  The Game System
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
link to my page
Re: LoPop Worlds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:50:38 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Confessions of a CT junkie.

>That being said, I have no qualms about buying and using other products in
>the Traveller line for my game.  MT?  World Builder's Handbook, SOM, Alien
>books, Hard Times, Arrival Vengeance, Referee's Companion, Rebellion
>Sourcebook.. All gave me useful material to steal.  TNE?  FFS1, the Regency
>Sourcebook.  T4?  Aliens Archive, Emperor's Arsenal, CSC, FFS2, PE, IS..

   Don't forget Brilliant Lances. : ) Didn't u get the Regency Combat Vehicle
Guide?  That's a nice one...  All kinds of Imperial Combat Vehicles (and just
1 Regency exclusive) w/ FF&S stats.  Damn... the Starship Guide would've been
good... ah well... 
   I've done much the same.  Rebellion Sourcebook, SOM, M:0, CT9: Fighting
Ships, Imperial Encyclopedia, etc etc. All wonderful products.  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:13:25 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: The Heretic Repents was Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:32:00 -0700, "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>>Since FFS2 the injection mass stuff is *canon*.

>	I feel obligated to make the disclaimer that Marc was never given
>the opportunity by IG to review FF&S2 for orthodoxy before
>publication. He has indicated informally that he's got some problems
>with it, but that it will be fundamentally sound for T4.1.

Also, IIRC, the use of the fuel was left option (becaue they,
after all, used the word "or").

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:13:25 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: The Heretic Repents was Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:32:00 -0700, "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>>Since FFS2 the injection mass stuff is *canon*.

>	I feel obligated to make the disclaimer that Marc was never given
>the opportunity by IG to review FF&S2 for orthodoxy before
>publication. He has indicated informally that he's got some problems
>with it, but that it will be fundamentally sound for T4.1.

Also, IIRC, the use of the fuel was left option (becaue they,
after all, used the word "or").

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:27:40 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:44:49 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>

>> Well, I can't speak generally.  But communications limitations is one of
>> the founding principles of the background.  To change this doesn't
>> involve tweaking the background, it inolves either scrapping it
>> or putting in obvious kludges.

>Y'know.  I think I stated this.  The Xboat network still works in exactly
>the same way, there's just no person on board.  So, no, changing whether
>Xboats are automated or manned does not involve scrapping canon, nor does
>it involve fudging anything.

Well, I was partially trying to speak more generally.  Also, not
needing life support will make them cheaper.  Finally, it raises
the issue of automatic cargo carriers (whether corporte or not)
and PC's having ships that can jump and land themselves.  (etc.)

>> Except that suddenly robotic ships that PCs have never seen before
>> are suddenly all over the place.

>How do you mean?  I have never been on board a cargo ship plying the
>Atlantic or Pacific trade routes.  I've never been on an oil tanker.  I've
>seen them from a short distance, but I've never been on them.

But you know they are crewed.  And if we had robotic ships you would
know.  And you (or at least I) am not someone who has even sailed
as a passenger on the seas.  PC's that actually operate a ship
would be well aware of this issue.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:53:20 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

Thu, 26 Mar 98 00:26:04 -0600, eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>>Well, just for record, not everyone considers the problems solved. This is
>>at least partially because the objection is not that you can't come up
>>with handwaves to make displacement mass fit.  But that the presence of
>>the various handwaves makes the idea feel contrived....

>Makes the idea feel contrived to YOU, David.  Your "honking big fusion
>engine" feels contrived to me, and that's a friendly dig, not a slam.

>I'm happy with my explanation, it works for me.  I suppose you're happy
>with yours, yes?  Let's be happy for each other. ;->

Well, my point is not reargue the issue, but just to point out
that the impression that anyone might take from posts that
displacement mass has been accepted as the generally prefered,
or "canon", explanation for how jump works is not true.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:14:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Mathew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
Subject: Canon argument

Hi: 

I can't believe this discussion. As far as I am concerned, Traveller is a 
set of rules for playing a Space-Opera style of Science Fiction game. 
Both CT and MT had decent qualities that you could separate out the 
game from the milieu. T4 failed at this and I have never seen TNE. 

I don't understand why referees can't deal with a little change. Of course
this is the attitude that a gaming company would appreciate, complete
unwavering loyalty to product sales rather than creativity. 

I think that its great that GURPS is taking on Traveller. I wish they
would license the rules too. Steve Jackson Games has one agenda, making 
money from games. They don't have strange sales practices, they are 
established, and they emphasize roleplay over discussion of physics. 


Matthew Harelick 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:17:33 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:39:28 -0700 (MST) Bruce Johnson
<johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> writes:

>wow! A life-form detector! Uhh is that TL-15 or 16? Maybe
>he-whose-name-is-not-to-be-uttered was right. The Rule of Man _was_
>very high tech!;-)


Ummmmmm, wellll, not exactly.   The thing detects entities, but has no
way of telling if it is a lifeform.  (Yeah, I know, its nit-picking, but
picking nits well is a dying art!!)


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:30:20 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Non-Canon

MJ Dougherty writes:

>G:T isn't Traveller? Sorry? Then neither is TNE, MT or T4. 

   GURPS: Traveller is GURPS.  The only reason that it has any relevance to
this list is because it uses the classic Traveller era portion of the
timeline as its jumping off point.  That is about as simply as I can put it.
If you want to still insist on calling it Traveller, feel free.  My
authority with regard to decide what does and does not get called Traveller
extends exactly 0.0 meters.

>They all change some part of 'canon'. If we can change from 
>thrusters to HEPLAR and still call the game Traveller then 
>we can change a single piece of the storyline and still have 
>Traveller. But who cares about that?

   Do not make the classic mistake of confusioning Game Mechanics Canon with
Storyline Canon.  Traveller has never had consistent Game Mechanics Canon,
it *always* had basically consistent Storyline Canon up until "T4", and the
errors committed there were purely unintentional.

>I ran CT with Laserburn combat rules. By some people's definition that's
>not Traveller, even though it's set in the Traveller universe and used all
>the game concepts. Then I ran TNE, but using home-written rules that had
>little to do with any Traveller rules ever written. I suppose that wasn't
>Traveller either? 

   Do not confuse Referee's Canon for either Storyline or Game Mechanics
Canon.  What you do with your own game is your business.

>I say again: G:T's storyline diverges from the 'canon' version, but that
>doesn't mean it's not Traveller... it's set in the 3rd Imperium... has all
>the Traveller concepts. (BTW: in answer to the question about how closely
>GT is going to resemble the pre-divergence canon, I can say: those writers
>I know about are making strenuous efforts to ensure compliance with canon
>sources.)

   OK, then it should pass this simple litmus test: do the events depicted
in the G:T correspond to already established Storyline Canon after Dulinor
shows up at Capital?  If the answer is no (and I already know that it is),
then what you have is a GURPS variant of Traveller, not Traveller.

<snip>

>Just ignore what you don't like. This is a GAME, for God's sake. Buy it, or
>don't. Your choice. But NOBODY has the right to demand bootings off the
>list for breaches of canon. Else nobody would be allowed on this list at
>all. I mean.... how big are Imperial Battle Cruisers? 

   I agree with totally with the above statement (btw, my answer would have
been 75,000 tons, but then I referred to a supplement which takes precedence
over an adventure--but I get your point).

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:58:31 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

> From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> Well, I was partially trying to speak more generally.  Also, not
> needing life support will make them cheaper.  Finally, it raises
> the issue of automatic cargo carriers (whether corporte or not)
> and PC's having ships that can jump and land themselves.  (etc.)

I admitted it raises the issue of automated cargo carriers.  To me,
automated cargo carriers aren't really that big of a change to the spirit
of Traveller.

Now, will the PCs have ships that can jump and land themselves?  Maybe they
do, maybe they don't.  You can break it down to expense.  Make a ship's
computer that can do these things by itself very expensive.  Maybe even
close to the cost of the ship.  When produced en masse (Xboats and cargo
carriers) they're cheap, but when individually retrofitted into ships,
they're expensive.  And then there's always those situations that the
programmers of the automation never really figured on...

> But you know they are crewed.  And if we had robotic ships you would
> know.  And you (or at least I) am not someone who has even sailed
> as a passenger on the seas.  PC's that actually operate a ship
> would be well aware of this issue.

Yes, but this is also TL8-9 Terra.  What I was getting at was, if the PCs
never were on big cargo ships, especially in your campaign, then they
wouldn't know whether they were crewed or not.  Maybe their PCs "would"
know, and if it came up in the course of adventure you said that the PCs
came across a fully automated cargo carrier what would it change?  Maybe
one of the players will say, "Hey, in JTAS Number 12, page 7, paragraph 2,
line 3 it says that big cargo ships aren't fully automated!", then you
politely break out of GM mode and say, "That was published about 18 years
ago.  The view of the future has been changed since then."  And that's all
there is to it.

I seem to be pretty much alone in thinking that maybe some of the ideas in
Traveller should be modernized a bit.  I don't mind being alone.  I just
prefer the simplest route to get where I'm going.  I just don't see the
need to make handwave after handwave when you can just say, "Hey, Marc and
Loren and the DGP folks never realized that we'd move ahead as fast as we
did in real life."

I don't think that tweaking canon is all that bad of an idea, and it's been
done before.  No one comes up with a handwave to save the Annic Nova, but
everyone must immediately defend manned Xboats at all costs with reason
after reason as to why they can't be automated.

I think the people that have written and published Trav are great guys.  I
just don't believe that they're completely infallible.

When I said such heretical things in the past, everyone seemed to think
that I was proposing that we run Traveller as if it were an issue of
Scientific American with all kinds of tech footnotes and longwinded
explanations of technology.  That's not what I'm saying.  I just don't feel
like having my intelligence insulted when I hear, "Well, the 3I doesn't
advance quickly because of the Vilani masses!" or "Since the Vilani are so
darned traditional, they don't do things that way..."  or "How can you
predict that bio-technology will be important to the colonization of
space!"...

Just admit that the world has changed in the last 20 years and move on.  So
what, something violates a book that 20% of the Traveller players have that
was published 12 years ago.  It's no big deal, y'know?

I don't know.  Whatever.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:00:43 +1100 (EST)
From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller and Canon

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, talisman wrote:

> 
> I don't get the problem.  Gurps Traveller is just a new set of rules.  I
> you wan to use the old history and old problems then do so.  I think that
> Gurps is just going to add some much needed flexability to the system
> (IE:Character generation)

Oh my Gawd!!! Just thinking of the millions of munchkin characters
possible using GURPS dodgy trait system is making my head spin %)

I think G:T needs the GURPS-lite treatment, like Discworld, so players
will be largely shielded from the myriad of dodgy rules and add-ons for
GURPS.


							Dave Moodie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:04:22 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Gurps Traveller

Andrew Akins writes:

>Harold, I am a big fan of your work. I've enjoyed your articles in Traveller
>Chronicle, and you've always been, in my opinion, an intelligent participant
>on this and other lists. So please don't take this the wrong way...
>
>Soul of Traveller?

   Traveller is Traveller because it has always had a generally consistent
background (the odd exception proving the rule).  I've heard it said here,
on other Traveller lists, and in places where Traveller is not the primary
topic of conversation.  If a consistent background doesn't matter, then all
of the fighting that took place over what IG was doing to the background
history was for nothing, and everyone who said something disparaging about
Ken Whitman or Imperium Games in that regard owe them an apology.  For that
matter, all of the grousing about what MegaTraveller and TNE would mean to
the Background Canon was *doubly* meaningless (especially since neither MT
or TNE invalidated anything), and everyone who said something disparing
about GDW after 1986 or Dave Nilsen or Loren Wiseman or Frank Chadwick with
regard to TNE or MT also owe them an apology.

   These things matter to some of us.  We get passionate about the game and
what it means to us, much as some people get passionate about sports or the
writings of their favorite author.  Maybe we're just a pack of dinosaurs, in
which case we need to be shown to our tar pit so we can be turned into
something useful.  In the meantime, principle matters, and calling something
what it is not the same as bashing it.

>Traveller is a game. Period. It is without a doubt my favorite game, and in
>my opinion the best RPG that is/has been/will be. But I think the
>terminology "soul of Traveller" is spreading it a bit thick. There is no one
>thing that you can point to in any of the versions that can be carried
>through the other versions as a "theme" or "soul"...they are all so
>different.

   Read "The Foundations of Traveller" by Marc Miller.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:11:18 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

At 01:41 PM 3/26/98 -0500, ringrose@ascent.com wrote:
>An Imperial ID would be something you keep with you, presumably, and
>will be made night-indestructible.  This leads to other possibilities:
>
[Good ideas of stored data Snipped]

Good ideas so far, but everyone is missing the point of my original query.
I wanted to know from the creative minds on this list, what you may think
the thing *LOOKS LIKE*. Any suggestions?

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:14:45 -0700
From: Steve Deemer <stedee@auto-trol.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial ID (long)

Robert Ringrose writes:

> >An Imperial ID would be something you keep with you, presumably, and
> >will be made night-indestructible.  This leads to other
> possibilities:
> 
> >An Imperial ID might also contain information about major long-term
> >medical conditions/ requirements/ treatment.  If these medical
> >conditions include prosthetics, it could be used for additional ID
> >verification.  It might even have your DNR order or corpse disposal
> >preferences.
> 
> >Such use would be entirely optional, as mandating medical information
> >on the Imperial ID would be difficult to enforce and the treatments
> >involved are a matter of opinion, but might be customary.
> 
> >Of course, this means that there's some section of your card which is
> >not ROM.  This leads to interesting possibilities like "your medical
> >data doesn't correspond to your ID, let's make a more thorough
> >check", or the fact that someone has to have the ability to update
> >those sections -- who?
> 
Steve Deemer adds:

My particular Traveller obsession is coming up with bits and pieces of
everyday future technology, nothing that endangers canon or threatens
the established background, just things that add color and depth my
particular game setting.

One of these is the "bio", the slang term for the Imperial ID (other
slang
terms are "file", "card", and "tag", pretty obvious). This is a
combination
ID, passport, personal biography/medical history, and Imperial bankcard.
Everyone who travels through Imperium controlled space and goes through
Imperial customs/checkpoints must have one of these.

Physically, these are cards about the size of a credit card, made of a
tough
plastic material on the outside. One side always displays Imperium
information
including the Imperial emblem, information on where the card was
originated,
various authentication codes. This information is there mostly for
nostalga,
it's rarely if ever actually used.

The reverse side displays about the same information as a modern
driver's 
license in about the same format. A holo of the individual, some
personal
information (name, identification codes, and any information that might
need
immediate attention, such as medical alerts, criminal conviction status,
what have you). 

The entire card is a small, sealed computer, the faces of the card are a
computer display. The Imperial face cannot be altered by the carrier,
but the personal side includes a user interface for accessing the
various
functions.

The ID function doesn't just have a holo of the individual's face. The
card 
memory contains a photo album of the carrier, holos updated at intervals
from the date the card was originally issued to the last time the
carrier
went through Imperial customs. The holo displayed by default is always
the most recent holo in the collection. There is some intelligent
culling
of the album. Images that aren't different enough to make identification
difficult aren't stored. Images from different ages and with significant
cosmetic changes are stored. Also stored is fingerprints, retina scans,
a typical body thermograph, a millimeter radar scan of the carrier's
bone structure, including a detailed scan of the facial bones. I hadn't
considered a DNA map until a read a previous post on this subject,
but that's a good idea.

The medical section contains the individual's history as Robert wrote
above. Treatments, allergies, vacinations, stops on planets where 
the carrier might have been exposed to something the authorities want
to keep track of. So far, you've got just about enough information to
physically construct the character from scratch.

The personal history section holds the travel history of the carrier.
Every time they passed through an Imperial customs checkpoint, were
on board a ship that was inspected by Imperial customs, or had other
significant interaction with Imperial authorities (such as being
questioned
in connection with an Imperial crime, for example).

The bankcard section offers a more secure method of moving money
from system to system than carrying around a big wad of loose,
anonymous cash. The card isn't an access to a bank account like
an ATM card, it carries the actual account it's self. Only authorised
Imperial bank authorities can debit/credit the bankcard. Traveller's
typically
withdraw cash from their bankcard at Imperial offices, taking it in some
other form of currency, either Imperial cash or whatever the locals use,
when first hitting dirt. Pay, gambling wins, whatever, gained in local
currency can be deposited in the account at an Imperial bank site.

The different card functions are generally separate and can only be accessed
by authorised entities. Only Imperial access control authorities (customs, law
enforcement) can update the ID and personal history sections. Only Imperial
bank authorities can credit/debit the bankcard account. The medical section is
partitioned into two sections, a permanent section verified by Imperial customs
and a "pending" section that can be updated by any authorised medical entity.
The two sections are reconciled during routine card updates. Medical treatment
received on planet would be in the "pending" section until, say, the individual
leaves the planet, at which time it would become part of the permanent history.

Something this important would be pretty bad to lose, so each time an 
individual passes through customs, the entire card memory is downloaded
to secure archives. Ground on a planet, go through customs, get involved
in typical Traveller shenanigans, lose your card, you can have it recreated
from the last archive. It immediately occurs to the seasoned PC that one
can hide, say, a medical procedure one didn't want on one's permanent
record by "losing" one's card immediately after the procedure. This would
ensure that the procedure would be unrecorded, but the fact that the card
was lost and reissued would be recorded. Too many lost cards would flag
an individual for special attention.

Lastly (finally!), after watching a few TV programs about cybergeeks who walk
around wearing personal body networks, I shamelessly borrowed this concept 
for the card. Carrying the card makes it interact with your personal "body
electromagnetic field" or whatever they called it. This means that your card can
be read remotely, without having to actually show it to the authorities. Imperial
checkpoints can therefore be invisible (Important GM note!) and appear almost
anywhere. All the visual features of the card are for low-tech systems that really
aren't authorised to mess with the cards internals. Imperials will _always_ have
the means to read the bio down to the last hidden authentication code.

Adventure hooks:  My view of the Traveller universe is that PCs have to be pretty
clever if they want to run around doing mischief throughout Imperial space. They
_will_ have a document that details their travels and significant dealings with
the authorities. This will be a damn near tamper proof document, these things have
been in existance for centuries, by now any holes in the security features would have
been discovered long before the player characters were born. However, clever PCs
will discover ways to keep things "off the bio". Simply carrying one's wealth in cold,
hard cash avoids the problem of having the Imperials audit one's finances every time
one goes through customs (then again, Imperial currency might have sensor targets
in it that would show up on access control scans (Imperial X-Files paranoia?)).

The cards might not be completely secure, after all. Imperial equipment will read/write
the cards. If some unsavory types got hold of both an Imperial bankcard device and the
current authentication code schema, they could be in the business of wealth creation.
At least until it was noticed that more Imperial cash was leaving a system than was
coming in, and the difference couldn't be accounted for.

I've bored everyone enough for one post, I think.

Steve Deemer
stedee@auto-trol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:27:03 +1100 (EST)
From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, TravelrTNE wrote:

>    I've always seen that  AD&D is to D&D is what TNE was to CT.  The House
> System was a direct discendant of CTs task system.  I've heard many times that
> it's overcomplicated and/or unplayable and just haven't found this to be the
> case.  I wasn't Mr Mega RPGer when I started w/ TNE...  
>    The reason I liked TNE is because it's a ground up system.  Everything is
> based on the same principles.  This introduced some flubs (high energy weapons
> not possible, no PA turrets, no t-plates).  What problems did you find with
> TNE rules, might I ask?
>     I think the TNE rules could have been summarized better.   (sans task
> descriptions and space combat can and should be under 2 pages)
>     I agree about Star Wars.  It's a  simple and very well presented game (the
> model of RPG presentation IMO).  Do you have or are u using the 2nd ed R&E?  

Another big plus is the compatibility with TW20K,DC,C&D and all the other
GDW House Rules systems I can think of. I bought TNE because the rules
impressed me, not for the backround.

The only real problem I found with the rules was that players had 2xas
much hit capacity as I thought was humanly possible. Easy fix: halve their
HC's. Oh, and Virus was horribly undernourished in the backround and
playing tips department, something I would have like to see more material
on <duck>

I have had a go at Virus Era stuff, but Virus is only suited to either
cameo parts or planet-wide artifical life colonies. I absolutely cannot
think of a reason why any TNE player wouldn't want to dabble in T4,CT & MT
time periods. Just the fact that there is so much official material out
there adds to the believability of the GM's campaign (it does, really
*^_^*).

I will probably buy G:T for the material alone, because I feel that the
GURPS system is overcomplicated and inconsistent (How many rules extension
books are there?) and needs a damn good rewrite (and some real artwork).
That's one thing I admired about GDW is that they weren't afraid to
completely revamp rules systems to bring them um to scratch (hail of CT
books heading towards me at high speed now...).

							Dave Moodie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:32:34 EST
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

Not to put you on the spot, but what do you suggest we do to fix it? My 2
cents worth, is that to paraphrase Slick Willie and M.A.R. Barker (of
Tekumel); "It's the story stupid!". What I mean by this is that the thing I
loved the most was the setting, the History, and the culture of the 3I. Which
rules and game mechanics to use is secondary to me; this is why I'm collecting
LBB's like a madman. I intend to use whatever rules the GM wants to use. I
always thought that the lack of decent hand held energy weapons was realistic;
not silly 50's-70's Sci-fi. All of my hard science backround friends (I'm a
historian, and trust their expertise), doubt that event the laser
rifles/carbines are possible because the backpack can't carry a powerful
enough energy source. I guess you could run a cord to a vehicle plant.... The
only real "dated sci-fi" I see is the computer problem. This is easily fixed
by shrinking ALL the computers down to .5 ton (500 kilos). They should really
be smaller, but I think this is the smallest size that can use CT book
2/Highguard design parameters (my "cheat" is that the computer weighs 1 kilo,
and the EMP shielding weighs 499 kilos). If anything, while I loved the
movies; it's Star Wars that is silly sci-fi, not Traveller (This is why I play
Traveller, and not Star Wars; despite the superior rules and support). That is
not what's not bringing in new blood. It's the opposite. The rugrats love
silly movie based space Opera over hard sci-fi. Ask a 13-14 year old which is
a better movie; Star Wars, or 2001? I agree with you %1000 that the problem
with getting new blood is that there is no movies based on the Traveller
universe. A pity that. I think a movie based on the Earth-vilani wars would do
well (Earth would be the good guys in this one, to make it more marketable).
You are also right about the game centering around military-merchant types,
which probably explains the presence of military and ex-military gamers in
large numbers. It's a catch 22:  there is no new blood and large market base
to allow money to fix the rules, and the lousy rules hurt the ability to
attract new gamers....sigh. Maybe the trick is to adapt Traveller to the Star
Wars rules, and get the rugrats to try something new. This is also the point
of Gurps Traveller, and it amazed me that people are badmouthing it. Granted,
I would rather play "pure" Traveller (what's that anyway?), but this is better
than nothing, and I don't see Steve Jackson screwing this up.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:40:17 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: link to my page

The following link
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/2157/       should work.


http://www.geocities.com/area51/labyrinth/2157

comments and e-mail welcome.

Let me know if I am missing any good links on the page.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:15:24 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: LoPop Worlds

Steven Bonneville wrote:

> Okay, here's an interesting question for folks:
>
> The population level required for Low Population (Lo) trade code status
> in various editions of Traveller seems to be different.  At a glance at
> the table, for MT and T4 a population exponent of 3- qualifies; for TNE
> it seems to be 4-.  My edition of CT is so old there is no Lo code.  :)

Marc said something clarifying this exact point I think, several weeks
back.  I didn't archive it though.  I think it was in a thread called
"world statistics" or something like that.  Perhaps someone has recorded
it.  Otherwise, a polite note to Marc might clear it up.

I think, he said 3- for Lo.

Bloo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #318
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 26 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 319



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Traveller: CCG [Was Re: <Sigh>]
Re: Imperial ID
Re: Year 0 Core sector now available
Re: Islands Clusters questions
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Non-Canon
Breaking with canon storyline
Re: Military Campaigns
Re: link to my page
Re: Traveller:  The Game System
Re: Imperial ID
Re: Tethers and Satellite article in New Scientist
Traveller WebRing
In A Store Near You: BioJewels
Re: Confessions of a CT junkie.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:26:11 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Traveller: CCG [Was Re: <Sigh>]

Harold D. Hale wrote:

>    FYI: Does the phrase Magic: Traveller mean anything to anyone? <shudder>

No way!  INWO:CCG:The Traveller Setting!  This would be great.  At least from this
INWO: CCG fan.

Loren, get the card game guys going on this, please!

Factions could be each race: Solomani, Vilani, Zhodani, Aslan, Vargyr, K'Kree,
Hivers, Droyne, etc.

Effect cards like: Vargyr Corsair Raid, MisJump! Zhodani Infiltrator.

All kinds of Artifact cards both high and low TLs.

You could have game mechanics like Low Berth (where you would keep cards in
reserve until needed), Green Zones (no cost to playing a card there), Amber Zones
(some cost to play a card in that area), Red Zone (no way to play a card there
without a special empowerment).  This Zone idea might work for drawing cards, too.

I'd buy it Loren!  (Assuming you wouldn't let me help create it ;-)  I think a lot
of other people would too.


Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:39:27 -0600
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

> Brian A. Howard elucidated:
>
>Good ideas so far, but everyone is missing the point of my original query.
>I wanted to know from the creative minds on this list, what you may think
>the thing *LOOKS LIKE*. Any suggestions?

Well, now that we all have some ideas as to what the thing *does*,
I'll take a shot...

My U.S. passport is a 1/8th thick booklet about 3x5 inches with a heavy-
weight, plasticized (but flexible) external cover. The first page is also
plasticized and contains my picture on the left with some seals on the
picture edges to provide security against tampering. On the right side is
listed birthdate, country of origin/issuing country, expiration date, physical
description.

The rest of the booklet consists of paper for containing port entry/exit
stamps. The last page (the side to the back cover) has a blurb about
what/who the issue of passport is dedicated to. In my case, it's Ben
Franklin.

So...I'd say an Imperial version would be about the same size, probably
a little smaller. Definitely be able to project the holo on its own
without
an external power source being required (have it run off the thermal
energy of the holder). It would be nice if just opening the front cover
activated the holo projector by breaking a link to a velcro/magnetic
fastener. It would include pages of some ink-bearing substance for 
low TL port entry/exit  stamps and also contain some RAM for holding
higher tech electronic/holo stamps in addition to any required medical
info (nice idea, that).

External color is based on the year of issuance.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:16:42 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Year 0 Core sector now available

Rob Conley wrote:
> 
> >Volker's Core Sector Corrections
> 
> What is this?
Ah, another chance for a blatant plug....
When Mrc Sent around the Revision of the First Survey Data, I noticed that still some
systems were not like they should be. Some sources in Canon simply contradicted the
listed data. So i took it upon myself to correct Core and Corridor Data, hoping that
others would follow the example. Carlos has indeed done Massilia, his speciality, but
other sector still await reworking.
Anyway, what i did was check all available Canon Sources that made some statements about
the listed worlds at that time. I changed UWPs to what was more logical or what was
simply stated in Canon. I also removed TL and Starports on Barren Worlds. I reduced Tech
evels over 12 as that was High-Tl at that time. Some other changes as well.
The result of this can be found on my homepage, along with everything i could find about
the Ancients. I believe this collection to be the most complete collection on the net,
so i anyone needs to know anything about the ancients, look on my page. Finally the url:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061/


(Ending shamelaess plug)

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:25:54 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Islands Clusters questions

> >2.  Is an entire planet really named after Berlichingen im
> >Baden-Wurtemberg?  It's the only one I can find, but I've been there (or at
> >least to Schoental up the road) and it's dinky, if pleasant.
> 
> Why not?
Especially, considering that "Gtz von Berlichingen" is a well known play by the German
poet Johann Wolfgang Goethe (the one who also wrote the original Faust). So there is a
bit more to the name, a character, an attitude.
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:13:11 -0600
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

>Maybe the trick is to adapt Traveller to the Star
>Wars rules, and get the rugrats to try something new. 

 I've already done that - I create characters using the CT Traveller rules,
and convert them to the D6 system (which is what the Star Wars RPG uses,
along with several other of West End's products)....

Anyway, it seems that a lot of people , at least on the net, aren't too
happy with the various Traveller rules - people end up using Corps, D6,
Chaosiums BRP, Star Hero, Gurps, Storyteller, etc

So, why doesn't IG( or the Future Traveller publisher) just give up on
rules, and just publish source material? That's what makes Traveller,
Traveller, IMHO. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:21:51 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

> From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
> 
> Not to put you on the spot, but what do you suggest we do to fix it? 

Personally?  I can do nothing.  Marc has his ideas for the way T4.1 will
go, Loren has his ideas for the way that GURPS: Traveller will go.  With
that said, now let me explain what I would do.  Keep in mind that A.) This
is all hypothetical, and B.) I'm stating what I think should be done to
sell more copies of the game, not what I think is best for the game (two
different things entirely).

Get rid of Foss as an artist.  Toss him right away, with all due respect to
those who like him.  I like him to some extent.  I like the detail and
sense of scale in his paintings, and they are executed well.  However, his
cover artwork would not inspire me to buy the game or the supplements. 
That's not even mentioning that his stuff just doesn't feel like Traveller.
 The cover art I would most likely suggest is hard to explain.  I'd like to
see a more "futuristic" feel to the logo and title.  My webpage should be
up soon, so you'll be able to see an example of what I mean.  If that's not
soon enough, then find some techno/rave flyers, or a copy of the games
"WipeOut" or "WipeOut XL" and look at the packaging and design.  This is a
style that I find aesthetically pleasing, but that's not my only reason. 
More on that in a moment.

> cents worth, is that to paraphrase Slick Willie and M.A.R. Barker (of
> Tekumel); "It's the story stupid!". What I mean by this is that the thing I
> loved the most was the setting, the History, and the culture of the 3I. Which
> rules and game mechanics to use is secondary to me; this is why I'm collecting
> LBB's like a madman. 

But, the rules mechanics aren't secondary to the average person with little
or no RPG experience who happens to see the book in his local comic shop. 
They don't want to have to fudge with the rules to get up and going so they
can run a game for their friends.  They want something that is relatively
easy to learn that doesn't have lots of exceptions and funky add-ons...  At
least not right off the bat.

For GURPS, they handle their rules the way they handle their rules.  I
don't like them, but they are well presented at the very least.  For T4.1,
I would dedicate the first chapter to a "quick start" section covering all
of the basics of the rules with clear and concise examples.  I would try to
dumb down the system without insulting the intelligence of the reader.  A
very difficult and fine line to walk.

> always thought that the lack of decent hand held energy weapons was realistic;
> not silly 50's-70's Sci-fi. All of my hard science backround friends (I'm a
> historian, and trust their expertise), doubt that event the laser
> rifles/carbines are possible because the backpack can't carry a powerful
> enough energy source. I guess you could run a cord to a vehicle plant.... The
> only real "dated sci-fi" I see is the computer problem.

I'm not just talking about laser guns, or plasma guns, or what have you. 
First of all, remember that this is 4,000 years or so in the future. 
Portable power sources will be much more efficient.  Exactly how much more
powerful is for the gearheads to decide.  The "datedness" that I refer to
is the lack of technologies that are studied in the modern day that are
completely absent from Traveller...

Computers, automation, artificial intelligence ('strong' or 'weak'),
nanotechnology ('wet' or 'dry'), robots, clones, genetic engineering,
artificial life, etc...  There's alot of stuff that's missing from
Traveller.  I'm not trying to start up this thread again, but there are a
good number of people out there who are into science, or at the very least
pop-science out there.  There is alot of modern day theory that is just
ignored.  It is swept under the rug with any one of a million different
handwaves.


> If anything, while I loved the
> movies; it's Star Wars that is silly sci-fi, not Traveller (This is why I play
> Traveller, and not Star Wars; despite the superior rules and support). That is
> not what's not bringing in new blood. It's the opposite. The rugrats love
> silly movie based space Opera over hard sci-fi. Ask a 13-14 year old which is
> a better movie; Star Wars, or 2001? I agree with you %1000 that the problem

Then don't shoot for the 13 or 14 year olds.  Yes, they'll probably go for
AD&D or Star Wars, so don't even bother.  I had promised that I'd get to
the reasoning for the "techno-ish" look I envision for Traveller, and
here's where I bring it in.  There are folk out there who are interested in
sci-fi that aren't interested at all in role-playing Star Wars.  This same
group tends to have a certain look and feel that they like, as well as
music that they are into, and other games that they are into.  For example,
out of my group of friends, just about every single one of them was
suckered into the look and feel of the videogame "WipeOut XL".  Good on the
fonts and artwork, as well as a good choice of music and sound all added up
to something that they were looking for.  The trappings raised a game that
was really little more than a really-fast racing game into something that
was attractive to alot of people.  Various sorts of techno and industrial
music draw on a wide sci-fi background.  

Now, out of this same group of people, you will find that most of them have
other sci-fi movies that they liked alot more than Star Wars.  Movies like
the Abyss, the Alien series, Dune, 2001, 2010, Total Recall, Blade Runner,
Terminator.  In addition, alot of them are into a wide variety of sci-fi
books, Gibson, Sterling, the Dune saga, the Foundation series, Starship
Troopers, the Rama series.  There is more out there than Star Wars.

Take for example, me.  22 years old.  My favorite sci-fi books are:
Clarke's Rendezvous With Rama, Asimov's Foundation Series, Sterling's
Islands in the Net (and others), alot of Gibson's stories, and (what I've
read so far of) Sagan's Contact.  My favorite sci-fi movies are: 2001,
Contact, the Abyss, Alien (the best of the three), Terminator, and Akira.
 
My friends aren't exactly the same in their tastes, but they mostly are
similar.  If it wasn't for me having liked Traveller from way back, and the
work I put into my own campaign, they wouldn't be playing Traveller for a
number of different reasons.  My brother, as an example, has a good
technological background.  He has said in the past he doesn't like the fact
that Traveller has such a dim view of computing power, nanotechnology,
artificial intelligence and artificial life.

Go for the 19-25 year olds who are into sci-fi.  By this point, those that
are into sci-fi have diverged somewhat from the Star Wars trap.  I have
left Star Trek out, because I'm not sure where exactly to put it in this
line-up.  A few members of my gaming group enjoy DS: 9, and several love
different ST movies...  But Star Trek fans seem to have a camp of their
own, by and large.

> with getting new blood is that there is no movies based on the Traveller
> universe. A pity that. I think a movie based on the Earth-vilani wars would do
> well (Earth would be the good guys in this one, to make it more marketable).

The bad news is, there isn't going to be, at least not in the very near
future.  As a result, Traveller has to carve out its own niche.

> You are also right about the game centering around military-merchant types,
> which probably explains the presence of military and ex-military gamers in
> large numbers. It's a catch 22:  there is no new blood and large market base
> to allow money to fix the rules, and the lousy rules hurt the ability to
> attract new gamers....sigh. 

The lousy presentation of rules hurt the ability to attract new gamers. 
Face it, AD&D is one of the market leaders.  The AD&D rules system is so
convoluted, screwed-up,  unrealistic and bass-ackwards that it is truly
surprising it is one of the market leaders.  Name recognition only goes so
far.  A good presentation of the rules with clear, concise examples goes
the rest of the way.  The White Wolf World of Darkness series is another
good example, since they are the other market leader.  Their system is
really pretty bad.  It's elegant, but it requires the use of soooo many
dice to do anything I don't know of anyone who ever ran the rules straight
from the book.  Combats moved like slugs in molasses on a cold winter day. 
Much like AD&D, there are plenty of clear, concise examples as to how the
rules work though.  At the very least, a GM er...  Storyteller can gauge
how he must balance his rewritten system to fit with the rest of the rules
basics...

I don't know.  Maybe my ideas are terrible, maybe their bad.  My point
isn't to say what's best for the game, it's to say what would help the game
sell and still keep its integrity intact.  What I'd ultimately like to see
is a rule book almost completely devoid of background (oh horrors!!!), with
several different options for jump drives, psionics, technologies, with a
good cross-section of careers and items.  TNE tried this to some extent,
and I personally liked it.  Sure it's heretical, but it opens the Traveller
universe much wider.  Sure, the background materials would focus on the 3I,
but there'd be something for everybody.  Personally, I prefer rules that
aren't tied deeply to any one background, and I tend to despise background
material and adventures in a rulebook...

But, that's just me.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:39:25 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

David P. Summers wrote:

> Thu, 26 Mar 98 00:26:04 -0600, eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
> >>Well, just for record, not everyone considers the problems solved. This is
> >>at least partially because the objection is not that you can't come up
> >>with handwaves to make displacement mass fit.  But that the presence of
> >>the various handwaves makes the idea feel contrived....
>
> >Makes the idea feel contrived to YOU, David.  Your "honking big fusion
> >engine" feels contrived to me, and that's a friendly dig, not a slam.
>
> >I'm happy with my explanation, it works for me.  I suppose you're happy
> >with yours, yes?  Let's be happy for each other. ;->
>
> Well, my point is not reargue the issue, but just to point out
> that the impression that anyone might take from posts that
> displacement mass has been accepted as the generally prefered,
> or "canon", explanation for how jump works is not true.

I'd like to point out perhaps the biggest handwave in Traveller:
"Due to the unique topology of J-space, the fall through the tunnel takes about
one week ( 150 hours), regardless of the istance travelled in N-space."
Anybody that doesn't like handwaves is going to be limited to planetbound
adventures.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 00:37:52 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Non-Canon

I am not confusing any bloody thing with any other bloody thing.

I am saying that GURPS Traveller is Traveller.

It cannot possibly be GURPS because GURPS is a generic rules system. 

Traveller is a game set in the Imperium, with blah blah balh.....

GURPS Traveller is set in a version of the 3rd Imperium where Strephon was
not murdered. So it doesn't follow the original timeline. Fine. So it's an
alternate timeline.

It's Traveller. Because if it wasn't it'd not be set in the 3rd Imperium
and I'd not have spent all night searching fro references about which
shipping lines are more important in the Marches around 1115 ish.

Many many people (not me) have said trhat MT and TNE were a horrible
mistake and should not have been allowed to happen.

So here's a timeline where they didn't. Take it or leave it.

Oh, and here's something to chew on:

The G:Trav timeline IS Canon, and so's the other one. It's like this:

The Imperium is part of Grandfather's ongoing experiment, his plan to
evolve humans in many ways and then bring them all together, to play on
their strengths as theEmpress Wave binds everyone together to create the
new higher form of humans. Grandfather let the Rebellion play out, saw
where it was going, and rejected that particular line of study.

Using his TL 32 time machine, he hopped back and changed a few things. This
time the experiment is back on track.

Yeah, right.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 00:45:01 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Breaking with canon storyline

T4 is impossible to play.... put those rules down RIGHT NOW everyone!

Why?

Because in M;0 you might do something that changes the future timeline.
Which is already set in stone, complete with jump torps, virus and four
1245dt battlecriusers, each with sufficient troop strength to put down any
military threat to the Imperium.

You also can't play MT, or even CT for the same reason... you might upset
the future timeline and that is absoultely forbidden....


Look. Have I managed to convey how utterly stupid this thread is? 

GURPS is a Traveller variant as valid as all the other Traveller variants
like TNE and MT. 

Play it if you want. Or don't. Who cares?

Releasing GT is not going to cause virus-laden rocks to fall upon us at
significant proportions of c, not will it make Starship Troopers any more
like the book. 

But it might just be fun to play or steal ideas from!

There are those among us who are not merely jusging the book by it cover,
but judging the book and its authors by their own miserable preconceptions
of what the cover might possibly look like....

Aaaaaaagh. I'm going to bed.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:38:13 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Military Campaigns

At 01:35 PM 3/26/98 -0600, you wrote:
> Keep in mind, though,
>that this is real military stuff and the military *loves*
>abbreviations. Of course, that _is_ one way to drive PCs
>nuts....

WTF?  You seem to have a real problem with our SOP, which keeps things form
getting FUBAR.  Why, in my days as a PFC 11B I was thrilled when the LT,
for whom I was RTO, would sit with me in the APC during FTXs and tell me
the abbreviations we would be using for SOI at NTC, or perhaps outside of
CONUS.  We'd sit in our BDUs, eating MREs, and speak entirely in TLAs.

I would sit in the shade of a MBT, and watch the CSM terrorize the
Battalion TOC.  I could get away with this because I was the unit H/FS NCO.

- --

+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
|    "But think of Korea, of Guadalcanal, of  |
| Belleau Wood, of Viet Nam.  The H-bomb did  |
| not abolish the infantryman; it made him    |
| essential... and he has the toughest job of |
| all and should be honored."                 |
|                       - Robert Heinlein     |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:30:17 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: link to my page

At 05:40 PM 3/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>The following link
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/2157/       should work.

Somebody has been raiding IG's page..   The link to my site should be
titled "Sylea Downport" rather than Duck's Traveller JumpGate."  The name
changed several months ago.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:27:51 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System

At 03:50 PM 3/26/98 EST, you wrote:
>   I've always seen that  AD&D is to D&D is what TNE was to CT.  The House
>System was a direct discendant of CTs task system.  I've heard many times
>that it's overcomplicated and/or unplayable and just haven't found this to
>be the case.  I wasn't Mr Mega RPGer when I started w/ TNE... 

If I may make a slight nit.. D&D to AD&D was a refinement and expansion of
the existing rules to an expanded form.  CT to MT is the nearest Traveller
equivilant.  CT to TNE was a completely different rule set.
 
<snip>

>    I think the TNE rules could have been summarized better.   (sans task
>descriptions and space combat can and should be under 2 pages)

I agree.  Take a look at CORPS.  Every rule is stated in a clear synopsis
at the begining of the section, and at the end of each section is a "how
you do it" box recapping the previous section.


- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:36:41 -0800
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

Steve Deemer adds:
>
>My particular Traveller obsession is coming up with bits and pieces of
>everyday future technology, nothing that endangers canon or threatens
>the established background, just things that add color and depth my
>particular game setting.
>
>One of these is the "bio" <snip>

Now this is why I joined the TML. Excellent writeup, Steve;
I'm adding it to my technology file.
- -- 
Sir Daven Hevelin, Order of Sylea
Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
CEO - Security Merchants, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:34:43 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Tethers and Satellite article in New Scientist

The tether failed due to an electrical short.  There were metal shavings
in the tethers insulation, causing the inner conductor to short to the
metal of the tether's chassis.  The voltage and current produced from
the tether were much higher than expected as well.  The short passed
sufficient current to blow the tether in two when it arced to the chassis.

(I read this in a Nasa News brief)

Eric

- -----Original Message-----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>


>In theory, satellites should be able to generate electricity from a long
>tether. But when NASA launched a satellite to test the idea in 1996, the
>tether was severed after just six hours, probably by a small piece of space
>junk. The new tether has a web-like structure to enable it to withstand
>damage from space junk and the company plans to use it to brake an ailing
>satellite, causing it to lose height and fall to Earth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 02:08:37 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Traveller WebRing

Gran - Freelance Traveller is currently registered with the
Traveller WebRing, but at the Dragonfire address, which goes away
Real Soon Now.  I seem to have forgotten any password I
associated with this registration; could you either email me the
appropriate info, or update the URL to reflect the move to
Tightbeam (http://www.tightbeam.com/FreelanceTraveller).

(I apologise for putting this to the list - for some reason, from
where I am, Gran's email address is reported incommunicado more
often than not.)

Note to the world - If things work out as I expect, in the
not-too-distant future, FT will be mirrored at
http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz/FreelanceTraveller or
...jeffz/freetrav.  It's also not impossible that the mirror will
end up being more current more often than the primary.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 02:08:40 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: In A Store Near You: BioJewels

[Inspired by an article in the "CIRCUITS" section of The New York
Times, 3/2/98]

Ordinary jewelry depends on the ambient light for its best
appearance.  BioJewels, produced by several corporations (most
notably the three Vilani bureaux/megacorporations and the two
Solomani-derived corporations Hortalez et cie and Schunamann und
Sohn AG), depend on the wearer's lifesigns, instead, providing an
ever-changing reflection of the wearer's physical state, and
indirectly his/her mental and/or emotional state as well.
Although popular in their own right as costume jewelry, they have
also proven to be useful to medical professionals such as
personal doctors and nurses who need to monitor their patient
continuously but unobtrusively, when the patient is in the public
eye.

BioJewels are composed of a substrate that contains both a
programmable sensor and an electrosensitive material that reacts
to the sensor signal by glowing.  The sensor portion is generally
reprogrammable for both metric and signal strength with the
appropriate equipment by an individual with computer-2.  The
substrate can be produced to match the appearance of most
precious stones, but cannot be changed after production.

Most jewelers on worlds of TL11+ (B+) that sell BioJewels are
equipped for reprogramming, generally at a cost of Cr100-200 and
one hour of time per jewel to be reprogrammed.  On worlds of
TL10- (A-), reprogramming will generally not be available.

When activated, the BioJewel glows at an intensity proportional
to the strength of the incoming signal.  Clear-substrate
BioJewels can also be programmed to change color based on signal
strength; colored-substrate BioJewels are limited to changes of
hue (for example, a red-substrate BioJewel can be made to vary
from orange to maroon, but cannot be made to glow green or blue).

BioJewels
TL12 In
Wholesale       Cr200/gram, volume negl. (5t/m3), lot size 0-5kg
Retail          Cr1000/gram, volume negl.

BioJewel Sensor Reprogrammer
TL12 In
Wholesale       Cr7500, mass 5kg, volume 3000 cm3
Retail          Cr10000

Referee's Note:  Use the wholesale prices listed when determining
the cost for purchasing as speculative cargo or when selling to a
gem dealer.  Use the retail prices listed for sales to end-users.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:09:50 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Confessions of a CT junkie.

- -----Original Message-----
From: dberry@hooked.net <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Confessions of a CT junkie.


>I am a CT junkie, unashamed and proud.  I love the setting above all
>others, and have very fond memories of playing the early adventures with
>Craig.


Well said!  Enough with the ranting and raving about what system is
best/worst.  I personally use them all to build my little corner of the
Traveller universe.  Everything published has some tidbit that I use even
the TML(especially the TML?).  Buy it, don't buy it your choice as an
individual but I'll take what I can get and run with it.

Another thing that bothers me is the quoting of formulae to prove a point;
WHO CARES, its just a game for goodness sake.  So what if the physics are
slightly wrong, ask yourself was it fun for the players and Game Master and
if it was nuff said.

I have introduced a high level of cloning and pure genetic breeding.  I
extract data from my wife about some of the work that she's doing and stuff
that she has just read about (she's a molecular biologist) and try to
incorporate into my worlds 4000 years in the future.  That ought to scare
some of the purists to death.

Computers are my background and I HAVE made changes to the computer stuff in
Traveller to account for (I would think) a large change in technology from
out TL 7/8 to the TL 15/16 computer. Same goes for power.  I'm sure by TL
11/12/13 that you would be able to power a very powerful laser pistol with
what would be the equivalent of a watch battery today.  I mean think about
for a minute and I believe that you too would have some problems with
"Canon" on a few things.  The first thing I read in the LBB's was "these
books are to guide you" or something like that.

I'm done.....

Thom

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #319
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 26 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 320



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller:  The Game System
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: Imperial ID (long)
Rambling about Traveller, Tech and Stuff
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #318
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #319
Re: Rambling about Traveller, Tech and Stuff

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:23:44 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System

TravelrTNE wrote:

>    I've always seen that  AD&D is to D&D is what TNE was to CT.  The House
> System was a direct discendant of CTs task system.  I've heard many times that
> it's overcomplicated and/or unplayable and just haven't found this to be the
> case.

I agree with your sentiment, Trav, but I wasn't fond of the TNE system.  It was
too much of a divergent from what was Traveller for me.

I do respect that you like it though.


> I wasn't Mr Mega RPGer when I started w/ TNE...
>    The reason I liked TNE is because it's a ground up system.  Everything is
> based on the same principles.

This is what T4 needs--not the mumbo jumbo of assorted systems and mechanics that
we have (ex:  the various starship construction methods that are not very mutually
compatible).

>  This introduced some flubs (high energy weapons
> not possible, no PA turrets, no t-plates).  What problems did you find with
> TNE rules, might I ask?

My biggest problem was that it didn't "feel" like Traveller.  I liked a lot of
what TNE tried to do, but, for me, it was an unwieldy system.  I'm sentimental--I
like the CT 6 siders and Skill weights.

For instance, autofire combat.  That takes for ever to play out.  If a guy gets
two actions in a round.  Each action gives him 5 pulls of the trigger.  Each burst
fires 5 shots--that's 50 dice rolls!

Then you adjust for recoil, on each pull of the trigger.  You track ammo.  You see
which bullets hit.  Then you roll on a hit location chart to see where the target
was hit.  Then you roll for and apply damage.

Sheesh, you'll spend 20 minutes with this one guy--in a 5 second combat round.

I like the detail, and I think the idea is good.  But, the execution of the rules
is too detailed and time consuming for easy, fun play.


>     I think the TNE rules could have been summarized better.   (sans task
> descriptions and space combat can and should be under 2 pages)



>     I agree about Star Wars.  It's a  simple and very well presented game (the
> model of RPG presentation IMO).

Yes.  It's incredible, and hard not to play--as a gamer, you want to take
advantage of the excellence provided in this game.

I just wish Traveller was this good.  If it was, I would have THE GAME.


> Do you have or are u using the 2nd ed R&E?

What's R&E?  I'm going to play 2nd edition Star Wars.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:45:42 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

Chris Seamans wrote:

> Rules-wise, I've had very few problems with Traveller.  I play T4 straight
> out of the book, with Mr. Miller's improved T4.1 task system as opposed to
> the original.

I wish I could do that.  That's what I want--to be able to play Traveller
straight out of the book, letting the games designers do all the work.  That's
why I'm buying the stuff in the first place--so I won't have to make it up.

But, I have too many problems with the T4 task system--even T4.1.  I like the
idea behind it, but the execution lacks (ex:  the skills vs stats debate;  the
single half die in MM's task system, etc.).


>  Keep in mind that Star Wars is one of the hottest franchises in history,
> and as a consequence it has the ability to draw in tons of cash.  This
> means there's alot more money going into things like R&D and playtesting.

Well, it shows it.  The books look good.  The rules are clean and well thought
out...and sparse.

It's what a RPG should look and feel like--and I'm talking about game mechanics
here, not the background.

Star Wars could have easily been a crappy game system wrapped in a great
background.


> Again, when you have alot of money to spend, you can hire better layout
> people.

OK.  So, are we supposed to have more shoddy quality just because they're not
putting money into it?

So, put out fewer, better, books, that are high quality.  Don't just get some
fan to write something, slap a cover on it, and call it a good RPG.


> Well, considering the fact that DGP didn't publish a Traveller rules set,
> this is a moot point.

DGP created the MT system.

> > Star Wars adventures are like those good old AD&D modules--just plug and
> > play.
>
> You're right.  Everyone knows the Star Wars universe.

That's not what I'm talking about.  I'm saying that a Star Wars RPG adventure
has everything at you fingertips in the module--just like AD&D adventures.

In Trav adventures, they basically give you an outline, you, as the GM, have to
create deck plans, roll up NPC's, and do a lot of pre-game work.

Star Wars adventures are off-the-shelf-ready-to-play items.


> I do this with all adventures for all RPGs I run.  I can't stand published
> adventures myself.  This is a case of different strokes for different
> folks.

I just want the option.  If I have time to nit-pick, great.  If I run it as-is,
off-the-shelf, then I want to be able to do that too.

> Yes, and AD&D has 25 years of rules tweaking behind it, not to mention that
> it's basically the leader in the RPG world.

Didn't Traveller come out within a year of D&D?

> AD&D has the advantage that
> most role-players are broken in on it.

At one time, AD&D and Traveller were THE role playing games.  This list is a
testament to the droves of Traveller players out there--and this is the greatly
diminished number due to the decreased popularity of the game since the late
70's and early 80's.

> Want to know the truth of why T4 is failing?  White Wolf, TSR, other
> companies, they all learned this one simple truth about the role-playing
> world...
>
> New blood.

For the first time in this post, we agree.  And what does it take to attract
players?

Quality.


> You've got to get new players hooked on your game or you've lost entirely.
> T4 has a dated look about it.  T4's technology has a dated feel about it.
> Sure, many on the list are happy that T4 has a retro 50s-70s sci-fi feel.

Not me.  I hate the Foss artwork.

> That's not what new role-players are into.  TSR has the advantage, as I
> stated, that they are the game that most new role-players cut their teeth
> on.  White Wolf has the advantage that they came along and made
> role-playing "cool".  Star Wars has the advantage of name recognition, so
> it's easy for them to pick up new players.
>
> Traveller has no advantage in this field.

Traveller does have a lot of advantages, though.  They are just not being used
to their fullest potential.

Traveller's background is incredible.

BattleTech is not based on a movie, and it does well.  Traveller could do the
same.


> Traveller is trying to pander to
> a user base that is shrinking every day.

And, why are they shrinking?  I've been playing Traveller since 1982.  I love
the game, but even a die hard fan like me is giving up because of lack of
quality.

Bad quality is unattractive to a serious role player with limited time.


> (I also want to note that I have nothing against AD&D or TSR.  Since WotC
> has taken other, they seem to have made a complete turn around, and have
> been putting out some really high-quality stuff)

I've always thought of AD&D stuff has high quality.

> When did T5 come out?  Why didn't anyone tell me?

T5 is what I call Gurps Trav.

> They should go back to basics (like T4 did) and make a simple, easy to use
> system that has plenty of room for expansion.  They should modernize the
> look and feel of the game.  And, yes, they should publish with a consistent
> quality.  They need a new user base.  They can't keep pandering to a
> role-playing market that, statistically, probably doesn't really exist
> anymore.  This isn't meant to offend any of the old heads on the list.  I
> think that this is just a cold, hard fact of life.  Most role-players are
> in the high-school/college age group, especially most new role-players.  I
> seem to be on the younger end of the Trav statistics on the TML (22 years
> old).  All of my players are pretty young (20, 22, 23, 24, 27) and none of
> them would have touched Traveller if it wasn't for me getting them
> involved.

I agree 100% with this paragraph.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:57:00 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

Sethkimmel wrote:

> Not to put you on the spot, but what do you suggest we do to fix it?

In a nutshell?

Come out with T4 Second Edition (T4.1), or develop T6 (T5 being Gurps Trav) and
start from scratch, building on the best of the previous four editions.

Have design systems that are intercompatible (just allowing more detail).  Update
the look and feel of the game.

And...start publishing adventures and game supplements that are the best in the
industry.

If you build it, they will come.


> y What I mean by this is that the thing I
> loved the most was the setting, the History, and the culture of the 3I.

I agree.  I love the setting too--so much so that I put up with and fix
substandard game mechanics all the time.

> I
> always thought that the lack of decent hand held energy weapons was realistic;
> not silly 50's-70's Sci-fi.

I like that too.  Aliens is like that, and it doesn't seem too dated to me.

I like that stuff.


>  If anything, while I loved the
> movies; it's Star Wars that is silly sci-fi, not Traveller (This is why I play
> Traveller, and not Star Wars; despite the superior rules and support).

Right.  I agree here too.  Star Wars is a space opera.  I like the Traveller
background better.  The hard core sci-fi attracts me.

It's the rules that irk me.

Star Wars just happens to have superior rules, and I'm tired of problems with
Traveller game mechanics.

It's a lot of work for a GM like me who believes that if he is going to put this
much time into something, then he should work with the best tools.


> hAsk a 13-14 year old which is
> a better movie; Star Wars, or 2001?

Hey, I'm a filmmaker, and I couldn't sit through 2001.

And, I'm 32 years old.


> I agree with you %1000 that the problem
> with getting new blood is that there is no movies based on the Traveller
> universe.

Nope.  Like I said, BattleTech does well.

>  Maybe the trick is to adapt Traveller to the Star
> Wars rules, and get the rugrats to try something new.

No, the trick is to make a Traveller game with superior game mechanics.

Then, I'd be yelling at the top of my lungs "Traveller is the game to play!"
instead of looking at Star Wars (a background that is fun, but not what I'm
addicted to--Traveller).

We just need better quality stuff for Traveller--that's the plain, simple, truth.


> This is also the point
> of Gurps Traveller, and it amazed me that people are badmouthing it. Granted,
> I would rather play "pure" Traveller (what's that anyway?), but this is better
> than nothing, and I don't see Steve Jackson screwing this up.

Naw.  I think Gurps Trav is a good thing.  I'm not going to play it because I'm
not that fond of Gurps, but maybe they'll do a better job than IG did of creating
a rules set.

Maybe that will sway me to play it that way.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:58:38 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

Jeremy Reaban wrote:

>  Anyway, it seems that a lot of people , at least on the net, aren't too
> happy with the various Traveller rules - people end up using Corps, D6,
> Chaosiums BRP, Star Hero, Gurps, Storyteller, etc

Agreed.  And that's my gripe.

I LOVE THE TRAVELLER BACKGROUND.

I'm just not that fond of the shoddy game mechanics and mis-matched systems.

I want a good game through and through.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:00:43 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

Chris Seamans wrote:

> > From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
> >
> > Not to put you on the spot, but what do you suggest we do to fix it?
>
> Personally?  I can do nothing.  Marc has his ideas for the way T4.1 will
> go, Loren has his ideas for the way that GURPS: Traveller will go.  With
> that said, now let me explain what I would do.

(Big snip)

Good post, Chris, even if you are 22 years old :)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:13:50 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID (long)

From: Steve Deemer <stedee@auto-trol.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial ID (long)


>Robert Ringrose writes:
>
>An Imperial ID would be something you keep with you

>Steve Deemer adds:
>
>My particular Traveller obsession is coming up with bits and pieces of
>everyday future technology, nothing that endangers canon or threatens
>the established background, just things that add color and depth my
>particular game setting.
>
>One of these is the "bio", the slang term for the Imperial ID
>Steve Deemer


Add the persons "Last Will and Testament" and I think you got it!  Great
post.....

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:52:31
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Rambling about Traveller, Tech and Stuff

The problem with adding bioware, nanotech et al into Traveller is that
within a century or so, assuming tehnology continues at this rate, we will
be well beyond the 'event horizon' of technology, and the future will be
incomprehensible.

Now, I've played in such a game - John Hughes' 'Rites of Passage', which is
set in such a universe - artificial intelligences, nanoware, semi-autonous
personality constructs, personality re-engineeering, the whole nine yards.
It was wonderful for a three-hour convention game, but utterley unplayable
in a campaign (if you have instant data transfer and nanofabrication, then
scarcity is no longer an operative concept. And no scarcity, no markets. If
you can reprogram your agent for any knowledge base, then anything that is
known, can be known).

Traveller technology works the way it does because one of the core
assumptions of the background is a dispersed interstellar society with
variations of technology and an interstellar free market.

As a result, technology has to be on a fairly gradual curve, and it is. For
example accumulators (which are the core technology for energy weapons)
improve by about 100% from TL9 to TL 14 (TL9, 10 MJ per m3 ; TL12, 20 MJ
per m3 - ref FFS2, table 223). This isnt that impressive - a world building
a Partical Accelerator will seriously think about buying TL9 accumulators
if mass and space arent much of an issue (one of these days, after my
Coronation-Killer battlecruiser and everthing else, I have to see what
'appropriate technology' gear looks like - a MCr100 warship with MCr90 of
TL9 stuff, and MCr10 of TL12).

This gives lo-tech worlds an economic role that they wouldnt have if
anything they could build was a thousand times bigger and a thousand times
heavier than high tech worlds. The exceptions are the 'new' technologues -
fusion, jump drives, meson guns, nuclear dampers and black and white globes
... things that allow that that was impossible.

If you want to think of today as TL8, then you might want to redefine
TL9-15 as TL 9.0 through TL9.9, and put nanotech and instant jump drives
and so and so forth at TL10 and up.

You also have the issue that a high-energy power source rigged up to a mass
spectrometer makes a great way of refining anything you want - raw
materials just arent an issue any more once you have fusion. This has been
handwaved away in Traveller.

The essential problem is that everything - technology, society, culture,
communications and so on - are a web, and everything affects everything else.

Automation *will* impact on unautomated Far Traders, because if I can prove
that an automated ship cuts the cost of shipping cargo to Cr 700 per
parsec, then we need to come up with a fairly impressive handwave for why
those Far Traders can get away with charging Cr 1000. Either they are
forced wayyyyy to the fringe, where there arent a 10 000t freighter leaving
every six hours (and big planets will create that much trade, if you take
the GPP rules in PE, punch in some assumptions on the size of the
interstellar traded goods sector and crunch out the numbers), or you start
handwaving like crazy.

Except they now wont be technological handwaves, they will be social,
cultural and economic handwaves.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:38:59 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

> From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
>
> I wish I could do that.  That's what I want--to be able to play Traveller
> straight out of the book, letting the games designers do all the work. 
That's
> why I'm buying the stuff in the first place--so I won't have to make it
up.
>
> 
> But, I have too many problems with the T4 task system--even T4.1.  I like the
> idea behind it, but the execution lacks (ex:  the skills vs stats debate;  the
> single half die in MM's task system, etc.).

This comes down to something that is personal taste.  For example, I have
had little or no training with firearms, and yet, I was a damn good shot
the first time I ever used a gun back when I was in the cub scouts.  I am a
naturally talented artist with a decent eye for design and form.  Something
of an prodigy.  My brother has had little formal training with computers,
and yet he is damned good with them...  Another friend of mine is a flat
out genius when it comes to numbers, and that type of stuff comes really
easy to him.  The list goes on and on.  Not to discuss T4s faults or
excellence, but at least you know where I'm coming from here.  The D3
doesn't bother me too much, as I actually have 2 of them in my collection
of dice, so it's no real hassle.

> Well, it shows it.  The books look good.  The rules are clean and well thought
> out...and sparse.
> It's what a RPG should look and feel like--and I'm talking about game mechanics
> here, not the background.
> Star Wars could have easily been a crappy game system wrapped in a great
> background.
> OK.  So, are we supposed to have more shoddy quality just because they're
not
> putting money into it?

Well, yes.  That's the sad part.  I would say, "Hey, I'll do the design
work for T4.1, and do it cheap!", not to toot my own horn, but I think I
could put out a clean, high-quality product.  But, my lack of hands on
experience and my lack of formal training mean that I wouldn't get the job.
 So it goes.  If I thought it would do a bit of good, I'd send some samples
to IG.

> So, put out fewer, better, books, that are high quality.  Don't just get
some
> fan to write something, slap a cover on it, and call it a good RPG.

On the contrary, get a fan to write it.  The fans know the most.  But,
proofread it, check it, and if it introduces new rules, playtest it with a
modicum of thoroughness.

> DGP created the MT system.

I thought it was GDW.  The two copies of MegaTraveller I have say GDW...

> That's not what I'm talking about.  I'm saying that a Star Wars RPG
adventure
> has everything at you fingertips in the module--just like AD&D
adventures.

This is a difference in the scope of both games.  As an example, I can say
as a Star Wars GM, "you visit the Cantina in Mos Eisley", and the players
can imagine it.  You don't have that crutch with Traveller.  Furthermore,
it's extremely difficult to write a completely focused Traveller adventure.
 Alot of the CT modules were basically "plug and play" and had everything
at your fingertips.

> I just want the option.  If I have time to nit-pick, great.  If I run it
as-is,
> off-the-shelf, then I want to be able to do that too.

Sure.  No problem.  Adventures are rare for many games nowadays, because
they tend to not sell too well.

> Didn't Traveller come out within a year of D&D?

I don't have my little tan D&D books with me right now, I thought they were
made in 73 or 74...  Trav came out in 77?

> At one time, AD&D and Traveller were THE role playing games.  This list
is a
> testament to the droves of Traveller players out there--and this is the
greatly
> diminished number due to the decreased popularity of the game since the
late
> 70's and early 80's.

Oh yeah.  Traveller used to be the sci-fi roleplaying game.  Somewhere
along the line, though, players as a group lost interest for whatever
reasons.  My own bet is that it was difficult to play the game without the
background, and in order to get the background you needed to buy a heck of
alot of books, or do tons of work yourself.  That's a failing of the genre,
not the game itself.

> > Want to know the truth of why T4 is failing?  White Wolf, TSR, other
> > companies, they all learned this one simple truth about the role-playing
> > world...
> >
> > New blood.
> 
> For the first time in this post, we agree.  And what does it take to attract
> players?
> 
> Quality.

Quality.  A good look to the books.  A modern look to the books.  This goes
a long way, too.  Look at the unique and distinct designs of Deadlands, the
White Wolf books and AD&D to see what I mean.
 
> > You've got to get new players hooked on your game or you've lost entirely.
> > T4 has a dated look about it.  T4's technology has a dated feel about it.
> > Sure, many on the list are happy that T4 has a retro 50s-70s sci-fi feel.
> 
> Not me.  I hate the Foss artwork.

I don't hate it, I just don't think it's good for attracting players.

> Traveller does have a lot of advantages, though.  They are just not being
used
> to their fullest potential.
> 
> Traveller's background is incredible.

But you can't get depth of background from the cover of a book.  As much as
it sucks, that's what sells.  The goth types can look at White Wolf and
say, "Cool!  A game for us," fantasy fans can look at AD&D and say, "Wow! 
This is our game," Star Wars fans can say, "Cool!  The Imperial
Sourcebook!"...

But most folks would look at T4 and just pass it by due to the lackluster
cover artwork and design.

> BattleTech is not based on a movie, and it does well.  Traveller could do
the
> same.

BattleTech has a number of things going for it.  #1.)  The basic ideas for
the game came from Japanese animation, which always has had a niche market.
 #2.)  There are alot of folks out there who like giant robots.  #3.)  It
has a hardcore and popular videogame based on it.  #4.)  It has a franchise
of novels based on it.

This is all in addition to good design, mind you.

> And, why are they shrinking?  I've been playing Traveller since 1982.  I
love
> the game, but even a die hard fan like me is giving up because of lack of
> quality.
> 
> Bad quality is unattractive to a serious role player with limited time.

Bad quality is unattractive to just about everybody!  :^)

> > They should go back to basics (like T4 did) and make a simple, easy to
use
> > system that has plenty of room for expansion.  They should modernize
the
> > look and feel of the game.  And, yes, they should publish with a
consistent
> > quality.  They need a new user base.  They can't keep pandering to a
> > role-playing market that, statistically, probably doesn't really exist
> > anymore.  This isn't meant to offend any of the old heads on the list. 
I
> > think that this is just a cold, hard fact of life.  Most role-players
are
> > in the high-school/college age group, especially most new role-players.
 I
> > seem to be on the younger end of the Trav statistics on the TML (22
years
> > old).  All of my players are pretty young (20, 22, 23, 24, 27) and none
of
> > them would have touched Traveller if it wasn't for me getting them
> > involved.
> 
> I agree 100% with this paragraph.

Well, at least we agree on something :^)

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:49:43 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #318

> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:14:05 -0500 (EST)
> From: Mathew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
> Subject: Canon argument


<<snip>>

> 
> I don't understand why referees can't deal with a little change. Of
course
> this is the attitude that a gaming company would appreciate, complete
> unwavering loyalty to product sales rather than creativity. 

CT was the FIRST Space based role playing game (of any major consequence)
and the best!

It still is the best. You would have had to been there in the "old days".
CT ruled!

People by their nature do not like change. I once felt as you do.
I thought that I was a "Force of Chaos" and then I started spawning
children!

They are definitely agents of Chaos.

> 
> I think that its great that GURPS is taking on Traveller. I wish they
> would license the rules too. Steve Jackson Games has one agenda, making 
> money from games. They don't have strange sales practices, they are 
> established, and they emphasize roleplay over discussion of physics. 
> 
> 
> Matthew Harelick 
>  
Physics is an integral (no phun intended) of CT and the "other T's". Space
is the best thing that we have going next to Science itself.

Wasn't it cool that somebody calculated how many Joules that a "Rod-Lobber"
wold produce?.
I am an Engineer and was going to do that over the weekend for my game just
for laughs.

Are we weird to dig Science?? Role playing is great no doubt, but actually
thinking about HOW
things COULD work is even better.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:01:04 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #319

I just wanted to say that this is a very interesting way for me
to get Traveller information.

There are certainly a lot of great people that have been e-mailing
back and forth with me.

Thanks guys and I hope that everyone has a great weekend!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:14:43 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Rambling about Traveller, Tech and Stuff

> From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> 
> The problem with adding bioware, nanotech et al into Traveller is that
> within a century or so, assuming tehnology continues at this rate, we will
> be well beyond the 'event horizon' of technology, and the future will be
> incomprehensible.

Then limit it, don't drop it out entirely.  Anyone with a passing knowledge
of modern day high tech and theory has heard of these concepts.  I know of
one person who wouldn't have touched Traveller at all based on this lack of
realism.

You can limit it to fit within the bounds of the game with very little
work.  Sure, some background might get trampled in the process.  But
background has already been trampled for less noble reasons.

> Now, I've played in such a game - John Hughes' 'Rites of Passage', which
is
> set in such a universe - artificial intelligences, nanoware,
semi-autonous
> personality constructs, personality re-engineeering, the whole nine
yards.
> It was wonderful for a three-hour convention game, but utterley
unplayable
> in a campaign (if you have instant data transfer and nanofabrication,
then
> scarcity is no longer an operative concept. And no scarcity, no markets.
If
> you can reprogram your agent for any knowledge base, then anything that
is
> known, can be known).

Then don't drive it to this level.  If Traveller is still around in 20
years, and the ideas seem antiquated, change it again.

> This gives lo-tech worlds an economic role that they wouldnt have if
> anything they could build was a thousand times bigger and a thousand
times
> heavier than high tech worlds. The exceptions are the 'new' technologues
- -
> fusion, jump drives, meson guns, nuclear dampers and black and white
globes
> ... things that allow that that was impossible.

Then Traveller is doomed as far as new players go unless there is a sudden
and unexpected revival in 50s to 70s technology and that's a cold, hard
fact we have to face.

> You also have the issue that a high-energy power source rigged up to a mass
> spectrometer makes a great way of refining anything you want - raw
> materials just arent an issue any more once you have fusion. This has been
> handwaved away in Traveller.

This is with good reason.  But, fusion wasn't written out of Traveller for
this reason, which goes a long way to my point.  If you handwave something
away with good reason, then GMs and players will understand.  If you do it
just because you're frightened of what it'll do to your silver jumpsuits
and flying cars, then they won't.

> The essential problem is that everything - technology, society, culture,
> communications and so on - are a web, and everything affects everything else.

True.  So Traveller must either update or die as an independent system.  It
really comes down to that.  With no new blood, no one will want to publish
Traveller.  Steve Jackson may do it even if it loses money out of love. 
The way to get new blood is to update the feel of the game, this much I
believe wholeheartedly.

> Automation *will* impact on unautomated Far Traders, because if I can prove
> that an automated ship cuts the cost of shipping cargo to Cr 700 per
> parsec, then we need to come up with a fairly impressive handwave for why
> those Far Traders can get away with charging Cr 1000. Either they are
> forced wayyyyy to the fringe, where there arent a 10 000t freighter leaving
> every six hours (and big planets will create that much trade, if you take
> the GPP rules in PE, punch in some assumptions on the size of the
> interstellar traded goods sector and crunch out the numbers), or you start
> handwaving like crazy.

Is every single piece of cargo in the modern world moved by big cargo ships
and big cargo planes?  No, of course not.  All kinds of goods and
passengers are moved in a huge variety of different ways.  Small planes
move high priority goods and passengers, medium planes move numbers of
passengers and lower priority goods, big planes move heavy equipment and
machinery.  Slow bulky cargo ships move all kinds of goods, small boats
smuggle drugs and weapons, move various goods, and move passengers.  Luxury
liners provide their own services...  And so on and so on.

I never imagined for a second that a Free Trader could ever compete with
Megacorporations on their own turf.  The idea's just ludicrous, whether the
Megacorp ships are automated or not.  Megacorps will always be able to ship
goods more cheaply.  However, some goods  may require that personal touch,
and that's where Free Traders come in. 

> Except they now wont be technological handwaves, they will be social,
> cultural and economic handwaves.

Like I said, a handwave with a good reason is fine.  A handwave just
because it violates a long out of print book that 5 people on the list have
is not.  Maybe it is time to look at the Traveller background with a
critical, uncaring eye and change those things that are now out-of-date.

Maybe not.

Maybe Traveller is an animal doomed to extinction because of the
inflexibility of its wonderful background.  I'd like to think not.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #320
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 321



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller:  The Game System.
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re:  Imperial IDs
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: canon vs. Canon
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: Heretics Jump Drives
Re: The Heretic Repents was Re: Jump Drive, IMTU
Re: Traveller:  The Game System
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: Free Traders and Trade Stations
Re: Confessions of a CT junkie.
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320
Re: Imperial ID
Re: Alt game settings

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:10:12 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System.

Hey, I think I mis-Jumped and didn't know it!

Hi Ken, welcome back.

I remeber when I first joinde the List (just about a year ago!?). There was
a massive Canon debate, about T4 and CT,MT,T:NE. Ken was trying, with great
enthusiasm to fix the Task System (and doing a fair job of it!). THe Conon
Police were on hanging patrol. All we need now is LeRoy to start a debate on
the tech level of the ROM and I'll swear I hit a mis-Jump with a time travel
twist ;*>

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, March 26, 1998 1:42 PM
Subject: Traveller: The Game System.


<Long Snip>
>But, I don't think this will happen.  And, I think I'm going to go play
>Star Wars.
>
>Kenneth.
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:28:15 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

> >  Anyway, it seems that a lot of people , at least on the net, aren't
too
> > happy with the various Traveller rules - people end up using Corps, D6,
> > Chaosiums BRP, Star Hero, Gurps, Storyteller, etc

Heck, almost anything else is a waste of time & energy.  The rules are
great, but you have to understand them.

> Agreed.  And that's my gripe.

I have to disagree with this, I LOVE MT RULES.

> I LOVE THE TRAVELLER BACKGROUND.

Same here.  The Background is great.  I also like that you don't have to
use the background if you don't want to.

> I'm just not that fond of the shoddy game mechanics and mis-matched
systems.

Play one system.  Use either CT, MT, TNE, or T4.

> I want a good game through and through.

And, that's why you play Traveller.

> Kenneth.

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"I am ready man, check it out, I am the ULTIMATE bad ass. 
State-of-the-bad-ass-art.  You do not want to f*** with me.  Check it out!
Hey Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of ultimate bad-asses will protect
you. Check it out! Independently targeting particle beam phalanx...FWAP!
Fry half a city with this puppy.  We got tactical smart missiles, phase
plasma pulse rifles, RPGs, we got sonic, electronic, BALL breakers!  We got
nukes, we got knives, sharpsticks..." -Hudson, Aliens (1986)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:45:42 PST
From: "Jamie Mack" <jacobus01@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:  Imperial IDs

In my T4 campaign I have created an upgraded version of a standard ID.  
Basically I've added a video communicator to the back side of the 
ID-assuming it is in a card form.  Also, it seems as though combining 
electronic funds access with the ID would be very convenient.  Basically 
making the ID a credit card.  Purchases made with credit are monitored 
and tracked against one's ID, and it would be right there to check.

As far as the appearance goes, I'm assuming a card format with the 
upgraded version.  The picture could be a full motion video with a voice 
recognition pattern.  Of course this might be pushing the tech level a 
bit, but I wouldn't think so.  But other forms I've envisioned are a 
small rectangular chip which might plug into a wrist comm.  Of course 
this form will not facilitate instant recognition and will require a 
reader to retrieve "any" information.  Not too convenient.

Jamie B. Mack
Breath Deep, Seek Peace


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 01:11:03 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

Chris Seamans wrote:

> > DGP created the MT system.
>
> I thought it was GDW.  The two copies of MegaTraveller I have say GDW...

GDW's name, DGP's work--like a lot of IG books were not written by IG but
contracted out.

>   Alot of the CT modules were basically "plug and play" and had everything
> at your fingertips.

Not really, and not consistently.  I have all of the CT adventures published by
GDW for CT.

> > Didn't Traveller come out within a year of D&D?
>
> I don't have my little tan D&D books with me right now, I thought they were
> made in 73 or 74...  Trav came out in 77?

Maybe--somewhere around there.

> Quality.  A good look to the books.  A modern look to the books.  This goes
> a long way, too.  Look at the unique and distinct designs of Deadlands, the
> White Wolf books and AD&D to see what I mean.

Exactly.  Then look at T4 stuff.  They don't look so bad on the outside, but
open 'em up, and you are hit with amateurish looking game material.

I just noticed that my copy of Star Wars Second Edition is copyrighted 1993--5
years ago, and the looks of it still blows the socks off of anything IG has put
out.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:10:28 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:58:31 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>I admitted it raises the issue of automated cargo carriers.  To me,
>automated cargo carriers aren't really that big of a change to the spirit
>of Traveller.

Well, for reasons I have stated before, I don't agree.

>Now, will the PCs have ships that can jump and land themselves?  Maybe they
>do, maybe they don't.  You can break it down to expense.  Make a ship's
>computer that can do these things by itself very expensive.  Maybe even
>close to the cost of the ship.  When produced en masse (Xboats and cargo
>carriers) they're cheap, but when individually retrofitted into ships,
>they're expensive.

Well, the arguements that say they should exist also say they
shouldn't be that expesive.  Also, who says they have to
be retrofited?  The PCs just get them with the ship.

>> But you know they are crewed.  And if we had robotic ships you would
>> know.  And you (or at least I) am not someone who has even sailed
>> as a passenger on the seas.  PC's that actually operate a ship
>> would be well aware of this issue.

>Yes, but this is also TL8-9 Terra.  What I was getting at was, if the PCs
>never were on big cargo ships, especially in your campaign, then they
>wouldn't know whether they were crewed or not.

When the contact ships to arrange courses, get help, info, etc.
they will notice if nobody answers.  I also makes a difference
when the want to arrange a working passage.  If you give it
more than a moments thought you can come up with more
examples.

>I just don't see the
>need to make handwave after handwave when you can just say, "Hey, Marc and
>Loren and the DGP folks never realized that we'd move ahead as fast as we
>did in real life."

Better than introducing a technology (which often is just as
much I guess as the ones implement years ago) and then putting
in handwaves so it doesn't break the background.  I don't
have problems with many things (like updating computers a
bit), but there are few things that are central such as
communications and PC involvement.

>I don't think that tweaking canon is all that bad of an idea, and it's been
>done before.  No one comes up with a handwave to save the Annic Nova, but
>everyone must immediately defend manned Xboats at all costs with reason
>after reason as to why they can't be automated.

I don't call automatic ships "tweaking".  It fundamentally alters
the need to for just the kind of skills a PC is likely to
have and the class of people they are going to interact with.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 01:37:14 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

On 03/26/98 at 12:53 PM,  "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> said:

>>I'm happy with my explanation, it works for me.  I suppose you're happy
>>with yours, yes?  Let's be happy for each other. ;->

>Well, my point is not reargue the issue, but just to point out that the
>impression that anyone might take from posts that displacement mass has
>been accepted as the generally prefered, or "canon", explanation for how
>jump works is not true.

Heaven forbid that *anything* I say be taken for the C* word! ;->

Our explanations are, by no means, the only ones for how jump drives work
or what all the hydrogen is used for. So, as for as I'm concerned use
whatever works for you in your game.

Eris,
    still a heretic
    after all these years!
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 02:56:55 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

> > I thought it was GDW.  The two copies of MegaTraveller I have say GDW...

Which ones were the members of DGP listed in the credits?  I'm kind of
confused on this.

DESIGN
Marc W. Miller


ADDITIONAL DESIGN 
Frank Chadwick
Joe D. Fugate Sr.
Gary L. Thomas

EDITING
Joe D. Fugate Sr.
Gary L. Thomas


> >   Alot of the CT modules were basically "plug and play" and had everything
> > at your fingertips.
> 
> Not really, and not consistently.  I have all of the CT adventures published by
> GDW for CT.

Shadows, Annic Nova, um...  The Kinunir.  All had everything you needed
right at your fingertips.  Just off the top of my head.

> Exactly.  Then look at T4 stuff.  They don't look so bad on the outside, but
> open 'em up, and you are hit with amateurish looking game material.
> 
> I just noticed that my copy of Star Wars Second Edition is copyrighted 1993--5
> years ago, and the looks of it still blows the socks off of anything IG has put
> out.

Well, I think it goes without saying that IG needs to completely rethink
its strategy, if it isn't too late.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 00:09:57 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:39:25 -0500, Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>> Well, my point is not reargue the issue, but just to point out
>> that the impression that anyone might take from posts that
>> displacement mass has been accepted as the generally prefered,
>> or "canon", explanation for how jump works is not true.

>I'd like to point out perhaps the biggest handwave in Traveller:
>"Due to the unique topology of J-space, the fall through the tunnel takes
>about
>one week ( 150 hours), regardless of the istance travelled in N-space."
>Anybody that doesn't like handwaves is going to be limited to planetbound
>adventures.

There is a difference between handwave and suspension of disbelief.
There is a rule in literature that you can expect a reader to
allow one general suspension of disbelief to set up a genre
but everything should flow naturally from that.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:55:07 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Heretics Jump Drives

warmind@juno.com (james a clem) wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:50:53 +0000 SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>writes:
>> eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:
>>
>>>>>Ok, I've seen that sort of effect in several books. Crews will want
>>to
>>>>>"pop" out of jump to get their bearings occasionally, right?
>>>
>>>>SHHHHHHH!!!   You'll give it away!!  **chuckle**
>>>
>>>Hee! Hee!
>>
>>You mean there's something *Fishy* about this?

>Lets just say, J-space is not always a nice place, strange and wonderful
>things happen there sometimes.

Okay. That's Feintuch by me.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 00:00:48 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: The Heretic Repents was Re: Jump Drive, IMTU

 "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:32:00 -0700, "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>>>Since FFS2 the injection mass stuff is *canon*.
<snip>
>Also, IIRC, the use of the fuel was left option (becaue they,
>after all, used the word "or").

P12 of FFS2 seems to be quite explict as to the use of a hydrogen bubble.

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 03:33:43 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System

Kenneth Bearden wrote:

>I do respect that you like it though.

   And I you.  I just think the TNE system is more thought out and more highly
developed.  I certainly wouldn't mind backward compatibility attempts but
after the fact, so that the system wouldn't be comprimised.   
   As far as canon debates go, I don't care one bit about the task mechanics.
I am primarily concerned over canon (meaning Storyline Canon) and those who
would see the Rebellion and Collapse not happen.  But as long as they don't
mind the "stigma" (:::sarcasm:::) of *Alternate,* I could care less.   I  just
think its something better left to individual refs and not to game companies
to put out.  

<snip>
>For instance, autofire combat.  That takes for ever to play out.  If a guy gets
>two actions in a round.  Each action gives him 5 pulls of the trigger.  Each burst
>fires 5 shots--that's 50 dice rolls!
>
>Then you adjust for recoil, on each pull of the trigger.  You track ammo. You see
>which bullets hit.  Then you roll on a hit location chart to see where the target
>was hit.  Then you roll for and apply damage.

Once you get used to it, it starts going really fast.  It's not 5 seconds, but
probably about a minute.  Usually (but not always) I just figure out the
*final* diff/die mods and apply it to *every* shot.  That's the trade off... 1
in 20 chance w/ 50 rolls or 10 out of 20 w/ 5.

>Sheesh, you'll spend 20 minutes with this one guy--in a 5 second combat round.

Well I always stick to the core rules when it's Elite or Detailed NPCs or a
player vs player fight (it happens w/ my group sometimes...) but when it's a
large fight, I go to that house mod.  I'd say maybe 5 minutes per round, which
is bad.  Star Wars takes longer for us IIRC (dodge/resistance/ wild die
rolls... etc etc).   With mods...  it's less than a minute (as long as it
takes to roll the dice really...).

>I like the detail, and I think the idea is good.  But, the execution of the rules
>is too detailed and time consuming for easy, fun play.

It goes really fast for us...  It took like 2 combats to go smooth... we're
like lightning now... 

>>     I agree about Star Wars.  It's a  simple and very well presented game (the
>> model of RPG presentation IMO).
>
>Yes.  It's incredible, and hard not to play--as a gamer, you want to take
>advantage of the excellence provided in this game.

Nope.  If I didn't want the hard sci fi, detail and awesome coherence of TNE,
we'd go back to Star Wars, probably (I killed the dodge skill after several
mods).  

>> Do you have or are u using the 2nd ed R&E?
>
>What's R&E?  I'm going to play 2nd edition Star Wars.

2nd edition, Revised and Expanded...  Added several full color plates (ads)
went to full color interior art... added a couple templates, Force powers, and
revised the movement rules slightly (very slightly... mostly naming 2x speed,
etc).  The major improvement is in the visuals... and the original 2nd ed was
awesome itself (I have both).

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 03:56:22 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

Chris Seamans wrote:

> > > I thought it was GDW.  The two copies of MegaTraveller I have say
> GDW...
>
> Which ones were the members of DGP listed in the credits?  I'm kind of
> confused on this.
>
> ADDITIONAL DESIGN
> Frank Chadwick
> Joe D. Fugate Sr.
> Gary L. Thomas
>
> EDITING
> Joe D. Fugate Sr.
> Gary L. Thomas

All of these above are DGP people.  They also did the "Knightfall" adventure
scenario.

> Shadows, Annic Nova, um...  The Kinunir.  All had everything you needed
> right at your fingertips.  Just off the top of my head.

Not like a Star Wars or a D&D module.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 01:00:35 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Free Traders and Trade Stations

"Legate" <legate@futureone.com> wrote

> > My personal opinion is that the Free Traders that have local agents on
> > retainer along their trade routes are the solvent ones.
> 
> What about Tramp Free Traders?

We prefer the term polyamorphous Free Traders. Our local "agents" are
unpaid.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 02:31:07 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Confessions of a CT junkie.

> That being said, I have no qualms about buying and using other products in
> the Traveller line for my game.  MT?  World Builder's Handbook, SOM, Alien
> books, Hard Times, Arrival Vengeance, Referee's Companion, Rebellion
> Sourcebook.. All gave me useful material to steal.  TNE?  FFS1, the Regency
> Sourcebook.  T4?  Aliens Archive, Emperor's Arsenal, CSC, FFS2, PE, IS..
> the point of this little rant is this:


As far as the above goes, Douglas, I'm the same as you.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:50:51
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

>Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:14:43 -0500
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: Rambling about Traveller, Tech and Stuff
>
>You can limit it to fit within the bounds of the game with very little
>work.  Sure, some background might get trampled in the process.  But
>background has already been trampled for less noble reasons.
>

OK. I'll say up front I dont believe you can fit new technologies into
Traveller without turning it into something else.

Lets go through some of the technologies  ...

Cyber/Bioware : Is in Traveller, as one of the things that the Solomani did
in the Good Old Days. Big social pressures against it. Imperium isnt that
good at it - call it down 2 TLs. Having cyberwear in you can get you
declared a machine, with associated loss of sentience rights, let alone
Imperial Citizenship. The alternate view is to assume that skills, stat
bonuses etc gained in charGen is from cyberwear etc - "Of course I'm a
qualified Pilot. The Scout Service inserted the chip when I signed up, back
in '22".

Nanomachines : These are one of those things that you cant have a little
bit of. They will be a truly revolutionary technology, in a way jump drives
et al arent. Jump drives just do to space what the sail did for the sea.
Nanofabrication units will revolutionise everything.

AI : Is in Traveller, but either at TL17 or TL12, depending on your
particular view on Virus. Interesting, limitable to certain extent by
price, but fundamentally, the question you have good robots is "why do they
pay a human to do this when a machine does it better and cheaper ?".

Fusion : Once you have free power, manufacturing falls in cost to near
nothing. We sidestepped this one in Traveller by pretending it doesnt.

>This is with good reason.  But, fusion wasn't written out of Traveller for
>this reason, which goes a long way to my point.  If you handwave something
>away with good reason, then GMs and players will understand.  If you do it
>just because you're frightened of what it'll do to your silver jumpsuits
>and flying cars, then they won't.

And if you do it *because* you have assessed that the silver jumpsuits and
flying cars just wont exist in a world where you can directly interface
with your computer ?

>
>> The essential problem is that everything - technology, society, culture,
>> communications and so on - are a web, and everything affects everything
>else.
>
>True.  So Traveller must either update or die as an independent system.  It
>really comes down to that.  With no new blood, no one will want to publish
>Traveller.  Steve Jackson may do it even if it loses money out of love. 
>The way to get new blood is to update the feel of the game, this much I
>believe wholeheartedly.

I dont believe you can update the core technologies that underlay the
storyline. You will have something, but not Traveller.

I'd also like to point out that the other SF RPGs have also gone pretty
badly, as far as survival goes.

>Is every single piece of cargo in the modern world moved by big cargo ships
>and big cargo planes?  No, of course not.  All kinds of goods and
>passengers are moved in a huge variety of different ways.  Small planes
>move high priority goods and passengers, medium planes move numbers of
>passengers and lower priority goods, big planes move heavy equipment and
>machinery.  Slow bulky cargo ships move all kinds of goods, small boats
>smuggle drugs and weapons, move various goods, and move passengers.  Luxury
>liners provide their own services...  And so on and so on.

The vast majority (and I'm talking 95% plus) of cargo gets carried via
shipping companies leasing space in freighters.

>
>I never imagined for a second that a Free Trader could ever compete with
>Megacorporations on their own turf.  The idea's just ludicrous, whether the
>Megacorp ships are automated or not.  Megacorps will always be able to ship
>goods more cheaply.  However, some goods  may require that personal touch,
>and that's where Free Traders come in. 

Such as ? Free Traders are a wonderfully romantic concept, and an excellent
way of turning a starship deposit into nothing.

If you want to make money, lease the ship and own the cargo. 

Of course, that is far less romantic :)

>
>> Except they now wont be technological handwaves, they will be social,
>> cultural and economic handwaves.
>
>Like I said, a handwave with a good reason is fine.  

If you want an 'adventuring' background, then you are going to have to
start handwaving like crazy.

>
>Maybe not.
>
>Maybe Traveller is an animal doomed to extinction because of the
>inflexibility of its wonderful background.  I'd like to think not.

The background hangs together as it does for a number of reasons. One of
the advantages of this list is you can start messing around with it, and
engineers, astronomers, economists, and all sorts of other sods and bods
can give their view.

My view is that essentially Traveller is about trying to recreate the Age
of Adventure - the era between the Age of Exploration and the invention of
the telegraph, which allowed some Regimental commander in the North-West
Frontier to be micro-managed by thin-blooded bureaucrats in Whitehall.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:38:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

In mail you write:

> At 01:41 PM 3/26/98 -0500, ringrose@ascent.com wrote:
>>An Imperial ID would be something you keep with you, presumably, and
>>will be made night-indestructible.  This leads to other possibilities:
>>
> [Good ideas of stored data Snipped]
>
> Good ideas so far, but everyone is missing the point of my original query.
> I wanted to know from the creative minds on this list, what you may think
> the thing *LOOKS LIKE*. Any suggestions?

Why shouldn't it look much like the new generation of driver's
licenses? 

Front:
+-----------------------+-----------------------------------+
|                       |          Imperial                 |
|                       |           "Logo"                  |
|      Photo            +-----------------------------------+
|       or              |                                   |
|      Holo             |        text data block            |
|                       |        (height, weight, etc)      |
|                       |                                   |
|                       |                                   |
|                       |                                   |
+-----------------------+--------------------+--------------+
|  Text data block (Name, address, etc)      |              |
|                                            |   Imperial   |
|                                            |    Seal      |
|                                            |              |
|                                            |              |
+--------------------------------------------+--------------+

Back:
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|           Signature block                                 |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| Optical data block (low density)                          |
|                                                           |
|                                                           |
|                                                           |
|                                                           |
|                                                           |
|                                                           |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| Optical data block (high density)                         |
|                                                           |
|                                                           |
|                                                           |
|                                                           |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+

The "low density data will be a moderatrely normal "bar code". The high
density will be a 2-d code. 

On my real ID card, the high density block is 4 cm x 1 cm, and moderate
chunk of that is alignment pattern. The "dots" in the code are about .5
mm square. I've got *no* idea what all they have coded into it.

I figure that optical data will be used for the same reason they are
using it now. It's easy to read with rugged, low tech readers. It's
hard to alter without being *very* obvious, and it's hard to damage
accidentally. And if it *does* get damaged, it's obvious *before* you
run it through a reader.

Heck, any culture that has gotten as far as "crude" photography can
create such IDs. They' may have to do something like fill in a "grid"
by hand, then photo-reduce it, but they *can* do it. So it's possible
to make local IDs that work with the high tech stuff (in actuallity, a
*good* medieval illuminator could quite likely create a usable ID, but
it'd take him a week or two).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 00:11:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alt game settings

In mail you write:

> At 12:42 AM 26/03/98 PST, you wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> Note: Rod-lobbers fire two inch thick, eight inch long stainless steel 
> rods
>>> at a rate of 1000 fps - and therefore are short range, but very effective
>>> weapons.
>>
>>Those rods work out as a bit over 3 *kilos* each. And at 300 m/s,
>>that's gonna have the recoil from *hell*. As in giving a 100 kilo
>>person a 10 m/s backwards momentum. Messy.
>>
>>And the "muzzle energy" will be 153 Joules.
>
> Funny, I get something very different:
>
> ME = 1/2 * M * V^2
>    = 1/2 * 3 * 300^2 (approx.)
>    = 1/2 * 3 * 90000
>    = 135000 Joules

So I dropped a factor of 1000. Make it 153 kiloJoules.
(.5 * 3.12 *304.8^2)

> BTW this gives a damage in TNE/FF&S1 of 24.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #321
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 322



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Handwaves, handshakes
Re: Military Campaigns
Good things that can come out of GURPS Traveller
Noncanon
Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec
Assorted
Re: In A Store Near You: BioJewels
Re: Non-Canon and Breaking with canon storyline (Final Thoughts)
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: Noncanon
Re: Imperial ID
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #318
Re: Imperial ID
Traveller:  Methodology
Re: Alt game settings
Imperial ID - too much stuff
Strange question...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 00:20:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5

In mail you write:

>  A prototype RADAR flashlight that can detect a human's presence through
> walls and doors should one day make law-enforcement officers' jobs safer.
> The patent-pending device uses a radar and a specialized signal processor
> to detect movement by discerning respiration from up to 3m away. No
> physical connection exists between the subject and radar. The development
> is part of a family of technologies that also detects heartbeat, according
> to Gene Greneker, a principal research scientist at the Georgia Tech
> Research Institute (GTRI). "Based on respiration signature alone, the
> flashlight allows us to detect a stationary individual behind a solid
> wooden door, or standing four feet behind an eight-inch block wall,"
> Greneker explains. The device uses a narrow radar beam of about 15 to 20
> degrees to detect body movement generated by breathing. Other potential
> applications include: locating people in a room during a hostage
> situation, and finding survivors in the rubble of earthquakes or
> accidents. "
>
> wow! A life-form detector! Uhh is that TL-15 or 16? Maybe
> he-whose-name-is-not-to-be-uttered was right. The Rule of Man _was_
> very high tech!;-)
>
> (Yeah, yeah, yeah...I can think of a number of ways this thing can be
> spoofed right off the bat, too...a $29 radar detector would tell you
> you're being probed, and jamming it wouldn't be all that much harder.)

Sounds like pretty standard millimeter wave radar. They are also
talking about using van mounted units to "see" thru the walls of
houses. 

Of course the current trend to use foil backed fiberglass insulation
tends to render it pretty useless. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:06:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Conley <estar@toolcity.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

> OK.  So, are we supposed to have more shoddy quality just because they're not
> putting money into it?
> 
> So, put out fewer, better, books, that are high quality.  Don't just get some
> fan to write something, slap a cover on it, and call it a good RPG.

I agree as a example I would hold up the Harn World material by Columbia
Games. Columbia Games, working on a tight budget, has chosen to put out
quality (in layout and materials) supplements very slowly. They are
notorious for missing deadlines but once a product is out it is very good.
Since they have been doing this since the mid 80's there is now a great of
material for harnworld. I have nearly everything for Traveller and Harn
and the Harn stuff occupies 3/4 of a shelf versus a full shelf of
Traveller stuff (excluding the board games).

The point is that we need a company who only produces Traveller material
on a regular basis when it is done and good quality. It would take a few
years to fill a shelf but we would know it is good and usable and we would
have the prospect of more.

Rob Conley

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:35:32 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Handwaves, handshakes

We are forced to use handwaves in most areas.  So theres nothing on
nano-tech or bio-engineering in Trav?  Big deal, make up something for
you selves.  We seem to be a group capable of reasonable critical
thinking.  By the way, all the talk of nano-tech, virtual reality,
genetic engineering, cloning, and all the other so called controversial
subjects of the day are largely hype and/or hysteria.  As an engineer
myself, I find I have a vested interest in keeping up with such things,
and so far, I have found little in any of these areas to get very wound
up over.  True, they all have potential, but these are most likely far
off, and we know that advances do not happen in any linear or truly
predictable fashion.  Chaos theory folks.  What would Orville and Wilbur
Wright have thought if you told them we'd be building aircraft like the
B-52 within 40-50 years of their Flyer's first flight?  Technological
predictions are only reasonably accurate within a couple of decades or
so.  Another 100 years of progress might well produce things we can't
even concieve of, or it might not.  So use those handwaves, they are as
valid as anything else!!


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

_____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:22:15 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Military Campaigns

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:38:13 -0800 dberry@hooked.net writes:
>At 01:35 PM 3/26/98 -0600, you wrote:
>> Keep in mind, though,
>>that this is real military stuff and the military *loves*
>>abbreviations. Of course, that _is_ one way to drive PCs
>>nuts....
>
>WTF?  You seem to have a real problem with our SOP, which keeps things form
>getting FUBAR.  Why, in my days as a PFC 11B I was thrilled when the LT,
>for whom I was RTO, would sit with me in the APC during FTXs and tell me
>the abbreviations we would be using for SOI at NTC, or perhaps outside of
>CONUS.  We'd sit in our BDUs, eating MREs, and speak entirely in TLAs.
>
>I would sit in the shade of a MBT, and watch the CSM terrorize the
>Battalion TOC.  I could get away with this because I was the unit H/FS 
>NCO.
>


ROFL*******OOF!!  BANG!! *^%*%^$(&*^*&^%%$@#%$&^(*&^(*^$^%%$  (Fell and
hit my head on my chair.)

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:50:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Mathew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
Subject: Good things that can come out of GURPS Traveller

Hi: 

I hope that GURPS can flavor the Traveller Background with more
roleplaying influence. Traveller always seemed more like a political game
than a roleplaying game. 

Matthew Harelick 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:51:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Mathew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
Subject: Noncanon

Hi: 

The only way that GURPS Traveller can become non-canon is to allow 
FTL Communication which is allowed in GURPS rules. I think that LW will
make sure that doesn't happen however. 

Matthew

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:06:02 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec

>I think we calculated that a ship with 10G (or 15G?) engines
>could travel a parsec in 42 days or so.  I don't remember if
>we worried about c or not.

Travelling 1 Parsec (3.26 LY) in 42 days obviously ignored c - at least if
the time is for an outside observer.

Hopefully the ship had LOTS of radiation shielding.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:18:15 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Assorted

Christopher Thrash asks about:

>* Marinus van der Lubbe

A German anarchist, framed by the Nazi party for bombing the Reichstag, and
mentioned as part of a gag in a Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers comic of the
70s. 

Gotz v B has already been dealt with.

Ask Marc about Amondiage and St. Hilaire. 

Harold D. Hale writes:

>Loren Wiseman writes:
>
>>The contract between Steve Jackson Games and Marc Miller's Far Future
>>Enterprises specifies two things about the background: No Imperium-wide
>>Rebellion, and no Virus. Steve Jackson wanted it that way _AND_ Marc Miller
>>wanted it that way (which gives you a clue how he feels in the matter).
>
>   Well that clears up the question as to whether or not SJG would be
>interested in publishing a TNE-storyline related sourcebook (the answer it
>seems is a flat 'no').  There had been some debate about that on the TNE-
list.

I would assume that would require another contract. My plate is full enough
for the moment, so _I'm_ not interested just now, but who knows what the
future holds? I'm certainly not going to say "never," just "not right now."

Loren

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:35:14 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: In A Store Near You: BioJewels

Cool...Jeff! TL 12 Mood Rings!  what's next, Hologrammatic neck chains?
Fusion+ Disco Balls! Maybe Chameleon Leisure Suits...yeah!! ;->

Definitely gets into that '70s and '80s feel of Traveller! ;-P

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:33:26 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Non-Canon and Breaking with canon storyline (Final Thoughts)

   OK, I heard that round of applause when you saw the subject header!

MJ Dougherty writes: 

>I am not confusing any bloody thing with any other bloody thing.
>
>I am saying that GURPS Traveller is Traveller.

   And I'm saying that it is a GURPS variant, and further, that we are
basically wasting our breath trying to convince each other otherwise.

>It cannot possibly be GURPS because GURPS is a generic rules system. 

   Once G:T comes out, go to your FLGS and ask where Traveller is.  You will
be taken to a display of Imperium Games products (possibly with some back
TNE and MT stuff laying around).  Ask where GURPS TRaveller is and you will
be taken to the display of GURPS materials.

   GURPS be definition can us any setting at any time--G:T just happens to
be one of them.

>GURPS Traveller is set in a version of the 3rd Imperium where Strephon was
>not murdered. So it doesn't follow the original timeline. Fine. So it's an
>alternate timeline.
>
>It's Traveller. 

   No it's a variant produced by Steve Jackson Games for its GURPS game system.

>Because if it wasn't it'd not be set in the 3rd Imperium
>and I'd not have spent all night searching fro references about which
>shipping lines are more important in the Marches around 1115 ish.

   At no point did I say that classic Traveller sources wouldn't be useful
in putting together G:T write-ups.  That's not the issue.

>Many many people (not me) have said that MT and TNE were a horrible
>mistake and should not have been allowed to happen.

   But they did happen and the official timeline reflects that.  If you want
to use something other than the official timeline to play at home or even
write something up for others to use, I don't have any problem at all with it.

>So here's a timeline where they didn't. Take it or leave it.

   A variant timeline, as in "this is how it could have happen instead"
rather than "this is how it really happened".  CT-MT-TNE is how it really
happened within the context of *Traveller*.

>Oh, and here's something to chew on:
>
>The G:Trav timeline IS Canon, and so's the other one. It's like this:

<snip>

   All joking aside, Loren indicated up front that what he was doing was
unofficial in the context of the Traveller universe.  I look forward to what
he has in mind, but it doesn't have the same validity as the official timeline.

Further MJ Dougherty said...

>T4 is impossible to play.... put those rules down RIGHT NOW everyone!
>
>Why?
>
>Because in M;0 you might do something that changes the future timeline.
>Which is already set in stone, complete with jump torps, virus and four
>1245dt battlecriusers, each with sufficient troop strength to put down any
>military threat to the Imperium.
>
>You also can't play MT, or even CT for the same reason... you might upset
>the future timeline and that is absoultely forbidden....

   Once again with feeling, ***what you do in your own game is your damn
business***.  Use Klingons carrying light sabers and flying Viper fighters
fighting the evil Predator hordes for all I care.  This discussion for me
has *always* been about Storyline Canon, and the official Traveller timeline.

>Look. Have I managed to convey how utterly stupid this thread is? 

   Not really.  Have you conveyed that we are speaking two differnet
languages and are approaching this thread in such entirely differnet ways
and that continuing it is pointless and destructive?  Yes.

>GURPS is a Traveller variant as valid as all the other Traveller variants
>like TNE and MT. 

   ARRRRRRRGHHHHHHHH!!!!  This statement is totally and utterly false, and
the kind of thinking I've been arguing against for the past few days.  MT
and TNE were not and are not variants.  They were the ***official*** rules
for Traveller, and contributed significantly to the progression of the
official timeline.  G:T *by defintion* is a variant--what occurs within the
context of its universe has no validity within the official timeline or
Storyline Canon.

>Play it if you want. Or don't. Who cares?

   Well at least we agree here!

>Releasing GT is not going to cause virus-laden rocks to fall upon us at
>significant proportions of c, not will it make Starship Troopers any more
>like the book. 

   Until 2028 anyway...

>But it might just be fun to play or steal ideas from!

   I own a copy of GURPS: Mecha and I am stealing ideas from it on a
periodic basis.  By all means, if it works and it can be adapted to
Traveller use it!  That is not the point of the discussion.

>There are those among us who are not merely jusging the book by it cover,
>but judging the book and its authors by their own miserable preconceptions
>of what the cover might possibly look like....

   1) I have at no point said, "don't buy "T4" because the Foss art sucks.
Have I expressed my displeasure with it?  Yes.  Cover art never sold me a
book--it might have drawn me toward it and gotten me to open it, but it was
the interior that made me take it up to the counter.

   2) If anyone here would like to buy GURPS material feel free.  Hell,
drive/fly to Texas and purchase the contents of SJG's warehouse for all I
care.  It will still not make G:T official within the context of the
Traveller universe.

   *More* than enough said....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:42:33 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

Chris Seamans writes:

>Which ones were the members of DGP listed in the credits?  I'm kind of
>confused on this.
>
>DESIGN
>Marc W. Miller

   IIRC, this credit was given because of Marc's originial work on classic
Traveller.  By the time MT was released, he had become a consultant at GDW
(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Marc or Loren).

>ADDITIONAL DESIGN 
>Frank Chadwick

   Ditto Frank Chadwick, who was still a GDW employee (actually I think he
was President by this point).

>Joe D. Fugate Sr.
>Gary L. Thomas

   DGP people who were primarily responsible for MT's development.  Not
listed is Loren Wiseman, another GDW employee, who is given credit for
"killing" Strephon and coming up with the original concept.

>EDITING
>Joe D. Fugate Sr.
>Gary L. Thomas

   Same as above.

   The manuscript for basic set of MT books was produced in Idaho (where the
DGP staff was located) and then shipped to GDW for a final look over before
being sent to the printer.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:32:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Noncanon

On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Mathew Harelick wrote:
> Hi: 
> 
> The only way that GURPS Traveller can become non-canon is to allow 
> FTL Communication which is allowed in GURPS rules. I think that LW will
> make sure that doesn't happen however. 
> 
> Matthew

GURPS is Generic, so there are rules for all kinds of stuff but you
don't have to use them all in each game or campaign.  In fact, you
are encouraged to pick and choose and there are suggestions for ways
to do this.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:29:18 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

I'm a little curious.. since my view of the Imperium's relations with it's
individual citizens has always been rather remote, much like the average
American is aware that we are part of the United Nations, I wonder how
common such an ID would be?

It would be required for off-planet travel, naturally, but as a regular
reader of alt.conspiracy, I can see big troubles if the Imperium tried to
force everyone to have this card.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:39:12 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #318

At 10:49 PM 3/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>CT was the FIRST Space based role playing game (of any major consequence)
>and the best!
>
>It still is the best. You would have had to been there in the "old days".
>CT ruled!

*sigh*  Time to start building the Home for Old Traveller Fogies.. "why,
when I was your age, we didn't have all this FFS to mess with.. we used
generic rifles and we LIKED it!  Damn kids...mutter, mutter.. where's me
Old Drug?"
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:14:32 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

>I'm a little curious.. since my view of the Imperium's relations with it's
>individual citizens has always been rather remote, much like the average
>American is aware that we are part of the United Nations, I wonder how
>common such an ID would be?
>


Yeah, and we could have HighPop HighTech sectors like Massilia refusing to
pay their Imperial taxes in full but the Imperium has to thread lightly or
they'll mess up their relations with such a powerful subject sector. ;-)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:53:54 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Traveller:  Methodology

Fellow Travellers:

Ya know, Chris Seamens got me to thinking....Oh, Oh.  Eric's thinking again....

What has affected the way I developed my ideas of the Traveller universe?

Authors:

Asimov, Bradbury, and Clarke
Heinlein,  the early books..Space Cadet, Between Planets, etc.
Andre Norton, her early works
Carl Sagan
Michael Chrichton  (SP?)
Harlan Ellison

Movies and TV:

Any Ray Harryhausen animated movie
Any early 1950s/60s Sci Fi classics
Star Wars (This is what started my Traveller experience)
Star Trek
Babylon 5
X Philes
Any WW2 period movie
Event Horizon
Abyss
Alien
Predator
Species
Terminator
Blade Runner
Fifth Element
Starship Troopers (a disappointment to this Heinlein fan, but good action)

What I like is a "Space Opera" playing session.  Players becoming actors of
bigger than life characters.  What the hey!  Everyone likes an opportunity
to "Save the Universe."  So now I need to ask you TMLer friends of mine
these questions...

How do you remind yourself it's only a game?

How do you make it fun for your players?... not yourselves because your
enjoyment comes from developing, authoring and running your universe.

How do you maintain balance amongst players and the game system?

What made your sessions work and more importantly, where did you fail?

Let's not talk mechanics.  We've seen where that train of thought can take
us.  Let's talk methodology.  And remember, these are things that work for
you as individuals and may not work for somebody else.

I've had my share of "monster" player characters.  I've also had my share of
excellent role players, more like actors if you ask me.  A share of good
sessions and bad.  Made some major oops! killed that party and oops! killed
that important NPC.

So reflect and give me your comments.  Feel free to contact me personally if
you feel uncomfortable about your negative experiences.

More on this later.


Eric T. Holmes
holmberg@thuntek.net
Hours: 6pm - 11pm Mountain
Lead  --  Serve  --  Educate  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:45:41 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Re: Alt game settings

 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 00:11:23 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Alt game settings
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > At 12:42 AM 26/03/98 PST, you wrote:
> >>In mail you write:
> >>
> >>> Note: Rod-lobbers fire two inch thick, eight inch long stainless steel 
> > rods
> >>> at a rate of 1000 fps - and therefore are short range, but very effective
> >>> weapons.
> >>
> >>Those rods work out as a bit over 3 *kilos* each. And at 300 m/s,
> >>that's gonna have the recoil from *hell*. As in giving a 100 kilo
> >>person a 10 m/s backwards momentum. Messy.
> >>
> >>And the "muzzle energy" will be 153 Joules.
> >
> > Funny, I get something very different:
> >
> > ME = 1/2 * M * V^2
> >    = 1/2 * 3 * 300^2 (approx.)
> >    = 1/2 * 3 * 90000
> >    = 135000 Joules
> 
> So I dropped a factor of 1000. Make it 153 kiloJoules.
> (.5 * 3.12 *304.8^2)
> 
> > BTW this gives a damage in TNE/FF&S1 of 24.
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> -----------------------------


The main thing is that this is an insane weapon intended for short range
use
by a culturally violent people. For my game purposes these guns will have
recoil dampers so that they may be fired by a man.

Besides, with stats like ST 8 DX 6 END 9 we are just about sure to knock
someone out and kill them with one shot.

You wanted alternate game settings and you are going to get them!

Shortly my web page will list my "changes to the universe" which will
include, but are not limited to:

Gas Giant dwelling Madmen
Fuel skimming grates to keep Madmen from entering the fuel tanks
Axe Handles as a powerful weapon
Cabin Chair Legs as a MORE  powerful weapon
Helmets designed to negate a head strike by an axe handle
Madmen harvesting devices
Madmen planetary invasion modules
Nanotechnology designed to destroy a PC's ship which "evolved" and was the
cause of the Third Long Night in my game setting.

And so on and so on....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:40:59 -0500
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Imperial ID - too much stuff

After my own post suggesting adding stuff (medical information, for
example) to Imperial IDs, I'll comment that we're going overboard.

When everything is working right and everybody is honest, sure,
putting all your information on one card is a good thing.

But having everything on your Imperial ID isn't necessarily good.


Most Imp IDs I have seen are computer-based.  Every way someone can
legitimately alter information is another possible way for people to
hack into it an alter _more_ information.

So the Imperium will want official, formal Imperial IDs to be created
once, sealed, and never modifiable again.  If it's acting as a
passport, what they want and what they can have are slightly different
things, but that would be the ideal they're striving for.  So perhaps
it'll be WORM, no deletion allowed, and (as a security measure) you're
only supposed to put an Imperial ID in an official, sealed, Imperial
reader.  To delete something, you have to get a new ID.


Similarly, do you want to put your Imp ID into a bank machine you
don't necessarily trust?  What if it (a) eats the card (b) takes out
all your money without mentioning it (c) copies every bit of
information out of your ID so someone else can make a fake?  If you're
a suspicious person, having a separate bank card which only accesses a
smaller account is the answer -- and if you're going to that much
trouble, it's easier for the _bank_ to just give everyone bank cards
(or the equivalent).


Except in a few remakable instances, institutions do whatever makes
_their_ work easier.  Not whatever makes your life easier.

	-Robert Ringrose
	 ringrose@ascent.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:05:24 -0600
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Strange question...

I have a strange question...

Anyone out there know the _exact_ quote from the original traveller boxed
set...you know, the "Mayday, mayday...free trader beowulf..."

I'd appreciate it if anyone could tell me...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #322
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 323



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Garushang Agreements (long)
Re: Traveller:  The Game System.
Re: Imperial ID
Re: Imperial ID - too much stuff
RE: Strange question...
Re: Boeing -- Boeing
G:T (or GURPS: Traveller or T5 or...)
Re: Imperial ID - too much stuff
Re: Noncanon (Encore!)
Classic traveller avalible
Re: Traveller:  The Game System.
Re: Strange question...
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #309
Re: Noncanon (Encore!)
Constructively handwaving G:T into the Storyline
Re: Traveller: CCG [Was Re: <Sigh>]
Re: Noncanon (Encore!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:45:30 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: The Garushang Agreements (long)

Some commentry, mostly streamlining...

>The Tenants of the agreement are not signed.
The whole thing seems more like an extension to the Imperial Rules of War.
The RoW are to allow local governments to duke it out on their own planet.
As long as they don't spill into the interstellar realm or cause
unrelenting physical, environmental or economic damage, the Imperium says
fine. This seems pretty much along the same lines but for commercial
entities in space. Naturally, however, the Imperium is going to be a little
more nervous about spaceships doing such.

>1).  No participant will put any uninvolved population at risk (with the
>possible exception of passengers),
Passengers are, de facto, involved. I'd drop the parentethical statement.

>or cause a major disruption in the economic capability of any
>single world or region.
This is problematic. The whole point of privateers is commerce raiding. The
point of a trade war is to cause economic disruption. Like recently the
baggage handlers went on strike in Dublin airport. This caused major
disruption to the economics of the city. There are plenty of
Company/Corporation planets. Strictly interpreting the above would mean
that these are off-limits instead of prize areas in such a war. I'd leave
this out and let it be covered by the "uninvolved population at risk". I.e.
if the war causes widespread famine or a complete, lasting, collapse of the
economy, then is a problem.

>No use will be made of...
I would phrase this more generally. As you have phrased it someone could do
something clever (nanites?) and slip through. I would state it:
"No use will be made of any weapon with lasting physical, environmental, or
economic damage."
Additionally, in an Agreement like this it is important that it is also
stated how such dictates will be enforced or what will happen (other than
being an Outlaw of the Imperium) if they aren't. I'd put in:
"Any departure from this will be costed by the Imperial Assessment
Authority and restitution made to the populace of the affected region."
The IAA are closely linked with the Imperial Revenue Comissioners. They are
greatly feared and greatly bribed by most Mega Corporations.

>2). Attacks and espionage will be limited to the companies involved
This begs the question, is corporate espionage illegal in the Imperium at
all? I think most counts would be things like "unlawful entry" or "false
pretenses" or such. Maybe this doesn't need to be here at all.

>Along the same theme, no individual shall be specifically
>targeted for assassination or elimination.
But a canteen of workers is OK? I think I would rephrase this to say that
efforts should be concentrated on physical assets, not sentient ones.
Maybe...
"Any attack targeted at the [human] resources of a company is an Imperial
felony and if carried out under the pretext of a Tradewar will
automatically be tried in an Imperial court."

>3). In the event of spaceborne combat, no ship which has indicated its
>surrender will be fired apon, ...
Lets assume that the Navy has seeded every system on the map with a
recording beacon that sits in the outer system recording all radio
transmissions. Thus we can add the payback clause:
"Participants allegating violations of this will be allowed to ask for a
search of Naval Monitoring data for indications of surrender."

>4).  Prisoners ...
Fine. Maybe a clause indicating that disputes are settled in Imperial Court
at a subsector level.
>Prisoners may not be ransomed
What is the difference bewteen ransom and a repatriation bond?

>5).  Passengers and consignors of cargo must be warned when a known
>tradewar exists involving the shipping agent.
I'd leave this up to the papers. I'm not in favour of the idea of
officially declared trade wars. It does kind of give the game away. Rather
I'd assume we are talking about actions taken under a Letter of Marque and
extend the concept of a LoM to include agents of espionage, sabotage, ...

>6).  Any vessel specifically assigned the task of hijacking an opponent's
>shipping or attaching its facilities shall carry a paper and electronic
>letter of Marque authorizing such action by the company leadership.
I would slant this a little differently. A Letter of Marque is something
that protects the agents or attacking vessel. A company would much rather
hire pirates, since they bear no responsibility for their actions. However,
by giving a vessel a Letter of Marque the company is agreeing to take
responsibility for their actions. Rather like hiring mercenaries. So I
would emphasise this by maybe putting it:
"Any vessel caught conducting commerce raiding in compliance with these
agreements must carry a Letter of Marque authorized by the company
leadership defining what range of activities the company has hired them to
carry our. The company will be held liable in Imperial Court for their
conduct within the Letter of Marque. The captain fo the vessel will be held
liable for any conduct outside the conditions stated in the Letter of
Marque."

>Vessels and installations which are defenseless shall not be fired apon
>until personnel can evacuate or be evacuated, unless such personnel refuse
>to evacuate.
This I think is covered by the clause about not attacking the [human]
resources of another company. I'd rather leave in the loophole whereby
people can refuse to evacuate and thus prevent an attacker destroying a
installation unless they physically board and drag them off of it first.
Makes for more adventure opportunity!

>...all rights to salvage...
I would tie this to the terms of the Letter of Marque.
"Any vessel or assets captured while operating under a Letter of Marque
become property of the authorising company. Any division of such or award
scheme must be specified in the Letter. Any disputes will be resolved in
the port the Ship is registered to, by mutual agreement, or by stipulation
in the Letter of Marque."

>9).  Such penalties ...
Again, I favour assessment and fines. That is more applicable to a
corporation. Declaring individuals Outlaws of the Imperium is fine for
something like privacy. But when supported by a company, who becomes an
outlaw? The Board of Directors? The Regional Head? Corporations understand
money. Also that sort of clause would be more in agreement with them as
they can assess the financial risk of engaging in tradewar.

Cheers,

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:32:45 +0000
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System.

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> I pulled out my Star Wars game stuff last night--now, there's a
> game. It's simple, clean, and probably one of the best game systems
> on the market.
>
> It's a different type of game than Traveller, a Space Opera as
> opposed to Hard Core Science Fiction, but the books and supplements
> are put together so well.

Until the release of TNE I always thought of Traveller  as  'soft
core' SF ... sensible rather than  'anally retentive'.  (I  don't
want to be flamed by the gearheads, but I always felt FF&S should
have been a 2300AD product with its wonderful 3D map rather  than
a Traveller product ... and 2300AD should have had the GDW  house
ruleset, not Traveller.  But I digress.)



> I can pick up the one rule book for Star Wars, read it, and begin
> playing without many of the problems I have with Traveller.

That's as much a 'fault' of  Traveller's  ambitions  as  anything
else.  Consider: how many joules of energy  does  a  light  sabre
need?  Would the power supply  needed  actually  fit  inside  the
handle (after taking into account the blade projector)?  How long
does it work before  needing  a  recharge?  Does  the  Star  Wars
economic model work?  Could the Empire afford to  build  a  Death
Star?



> As a matter of fact, I haven't felt good about Traveller rules
> since the DGP days--that was the only company, IG included,
> IMNSHO, which made quality Traveller stuff.

Agreed.  :-(  No, wait, I don't agree.  Sure DGP was  great,  and
both GDW and IG have released some stinkers,  but  they  produced
some good stuff too.



> With a Trav adventure (most of the time), I've got to do a lot
> of work--roll up adversaries and NPC's, create deck plans and
> building floorplans, use vehicles and ships created with non-
> standardized design systems....etc...WHAT A HEADACHE!

What a bargain!  Traveller is 2 games in one:  it  comes  in  kit
form, then there is the game itself.  Perhaps  the  cover  should
read "some assembly may be required".  GDW  didn't  just  produce
Traveller, it produced a 'game design workshop'.



> I don't find myself tweaking with other games as much as I do
> with Traveller. I play AD&D pretty much straight out of the book.
> I play Star Wars, straight out of the book. I play James Bond,
> straight out of the book.

Hmmm ... I play AD&D then I stop ... I play Star Wars then I stop
... I play other games too, then I  stop  ...  but  when  I  stop
'playing' Traveller I'm still thinking  about  it!  Tweaking  it,
amending it, growing it.



> As a matter of fact, I can't think of one games system that I
> have put as much work into.

Ditto.



> Oh, sure. There's a quick fix here and there. All GM's that I
> know of do this. But, usually, for me, this is nothing more than
> a couple of pencil marks in the margin.
>
> No so with Traveller. I have reams (litterally) of paper printed
> out with rules fixes and rules replacements because I don't think
> what I buy from Traveller's various publishers is good enough.

I just wish the next edition of  Traveller  comes  out  on  hole-
punched loose leaf pages.  Any errata, change, rule addition, new
source material can then be slipped into the appropriate place in
a ring binder ... along with my own campaign notes.



Regards PLST
<tagless>
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:25:01 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

At 05:14 PM 3/27/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>I'm a little curious.. since my view of the Imperium's relations with it's
>>individual citizens has always been rather remote, much like the average
>>American is aware that we are part of the United Nations, I wonder how
>>common such an ID would be?

>Yeah, and we could have HighPop HighTech sectors like Massilia refusing to
>pay their Imperial taxes in full but the Imperium has to thread lightly or
>they'll mess up their relations with such a powerful subject sector. ;-)

Make you a deal.. UN missions start paying their traffic tickets, we pony
up our billion bucks.  Deal?  :)

Doug, envoy from the Sverdaheimssambandid
Real Men(tm) don't pay parking tickets

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:36:06 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Imperial ID - too much stuff

At 11:40 AM 3/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>After my own post suggesting adding stuff (medical information, for
>example) to Imperial IDs, I'll comment that we're going overboard.
>
>When everything is working right and everybody is honest, sure,
>putting all your information on one card is a good thing.

<Snip>

>Most Imp IDs I have seen are computer-based.  Every way someone can
>legitimately alter information is another possible way for people to
>hack into it an alter _more_ information.
>
>So the Imperium will want official, formal Imperial IDs to be created
>once, sealed, and never modifiable again.  If it's acting as a
>passport, what they want and what they can have are slightly different
>things, but that would be the ideal they're striving for.  So perhaps
>it'll be WORM, no deletion allowed, and (as a security measure) you're
>only supposed to put an Imperial ID in an official, sealed, Imperial
>reader.  To delete something, you have to get a new ID.

That's a good idea, since today we have to update our own ID's when the
information changes.  (Ask my wife about the nightmare she went through
trying to change her last name after we got married..it was the fourth
surname she had, and the computers choked.)

This would happen at the local office of the Imperial Consulate.
Travelling off world?  Already have an ID?  Go in, and the nice friendly
clerk will update the information.

>Similarly, do you want to put your Imp ID into a bank machine you
>don't necessarily trust?

I use daily a Bank of America VISA card that contains a great deal of
information about me.  I do buy things over the net, and use the card to
order pizza (frequently).  I do not worry overly much about the security of
the card, since from what I've seen, VISA and BofA do a good job of
protecting their customers.

The same would be true for the Imperial ID.  To change it would require all
sorts of conformations and double checks. 

Let's say that I'm a business man, about travel from Regina to Efate.  I
recently moved, and had my appendix removed.  I go to the Consulate,
present my ID, and state the changes needed.  The computer then checks my
story.  It confirms that someone with my name did sell a property at the
address listed on my ID, and purchased a house at the address given.
Medical records from the Cynthia Alledon Memorial Hospital indicate that I
was admitted with pre-critical appendicitis on 076-1104, and removal was
accomplished on an outpatient basis.  While this going on, both the clerk
and sensors are double-checking me personally.  Looking obvious deviances
from the card.

This procedure might take a day or two, but in the end I get an updated card.

- --
+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
| "Fixed fortifications are monuments to the  |
|  stupidity of man."  -Gen. George S. Patton |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:42:05 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Strange question...

On Friday, 27 March 1998 11:05, Andrew Akins [SMTP:igor@ames.net] wrote:
> I have a strange question...
> 
> Anyone out there know the _exact_ quote from the original traveller
> boxed
> set...you know, the "Mayday, mayday...free trader beowulf..."
> 
> I'd appreciate it if anyone could tell me...

Try the Not-the-IG-Page's Traveller page at

http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/travelle.html

- -Vanya  (aka Vargr1)                                     UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ----------------------------------- The Future is in Beta
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
 "...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." |   dmoody@bridge.com
- --Not-the-IG Pages - http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/default.html--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:35:36 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Boeing -- Boeing

> Boeing has a reputation for this sort of stuff, dating back to WWII, 
> when B-17s were put through some remarkable hoops. I keep running 
> across rumors of a pilot pulling an Immelman with a B-17, but have 
> never found solid proof.
> 
> Loren Wiseman
> 

I've seen video of the CH-53E helicopter (the Marine Corps Super
Stallion) doing loops and barrel rolls.  Incredible to see such a big
helicopter upside down....  I understand that they retired the aircraft
immediately after the flights as it stressed the air frame as to be
beyond the safety limits for additional use....

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:10:49 -0600
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: G:T (or GURPS: Traveller or T5 or...)

Okay, gang, I've seen alot of dissing (i.e "complaining" for those outside the
U.S.) of GURPS in general on the TML. Unfortunately, you all did it *after*
I dropped about $100US for some of the various books in preparation for
GURPS: Traveller.  Since I'm finding some nice things in them, I'd greatly
appreciate _details_ about why some of you don't like the GURPS rules.
I have absolutely _no_ experience with them. I'd ask on the GURPS
mail group but everyone there *likes* GURPS.

I couldn't care less if it's a specific way munitions is handled or just
a general feeling that combat is too slow, send it to me. I really need some
feedback before putting alot of time and effort into my new campaign just
to find out the rules won't work due to something more than my
beginner's ignorance.  So...please send me something more than
"(shrug) I dunno, it just doesn't work for me".

Please DO NOT reply back to the TML on this! Use my personal address
instead.

Thanks!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:59:36 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Imperial ID - too much stuff

>After my own post suggesting adding stuff (medical information, for
>example) to Imperial IDs, I'll comment that we're going overboard.
Developing your minimalist suggestion, what more do you need than a unique
number on the card? This just serves as an index into a wide variety of
databases circulated for various reasons.
  For example, there might be a validation database. This might index the
number to a photograph, fingerprint, retinal ID, dental pattern, DNA
profile, or any number of other validation methods. When you use the card
for whatever (say at immigration) they would index the number against the
local copy of the database to prove who you are. This makes for all sorts
of fun if, for example, one world uses retnal scans exclusively but you
haven't had yours added to your profile in the Imperial Database.
  Although originally developed just for Imperial Customs control, it is
probably widely used by other institutions (much like the American Social
Security number is used as your College id in many places). For example TAS
probably uses it as your TAS id. So when you check into the TAS lounge they
swipe your card, validate your identity (using the Imperially distributed
database and whatever the common means is at the local TL) and then index
into their own database to find out your TAS particulars.
  This approach also removes the necessity for a single format for the
card. Your world of issue might print the number (10 hex digits, would that
cover the past, present and future Imperial Population?) on a plastic card,
memory chip, or clay seal. There are probably vendors in Starpors who will
make a copy of your card suitable to local machines. It doesn't matter if
they are easy to "forge". In and of itself it doesn't prove anything. You
need the validation database to validate that you match the number.
  Of course it is still subject to sabotage. IDs could be entered into the
database through illicit means and then sold off. Or you could hack into a
local services copy of the database (assuming it is only replicated
occasionally) and change the validation parameters, or you can comprimise
their local scanning machine. There is always the crude method of handing
over your id wrapped in a 100Cr note...

Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:58:37 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Noncanon (Encore!)

Mathew Harelick writes:

>The only way that GURPS Traveller can become non-canon is to allow 
>FTL Communication which is allowed in GURPS rules. I think that LW will
>make sure that doesn't happen however. 

   <sigh>

   So when we do we get the official Traveller rules for time travel, Marc?
Will it be in the basic "T4.1" manual or will it be a seperate sourcebook?
Afterall, it's not FTL communications....

   It appears that I am a voice in the wilderness--or maybe I've just made
too many kill files.

   <Harold mutters something about the evils of Relativism and goes to his
room to brood>

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:10:30 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Classic traveller avalible

My NSLBEFGS has a copy of the Black Box avalible.  The books carry the 1981
copyright, and are in excellent condition.  The box shows a lot of
closet-wear, and has a nice piece of artwork on the back.  I beleive the
copyruight on the box is 1983.

Along with the LBBs, the boc contains the GDW catalog!  A lot of fun to
read, even as I winced at the items that disapered long ago.  (Ah.. Double
Star.  Our rocks may not be near-C, but they are mucking huge!)

You can contact Justin at GameScape Palo Alto (CA) for details.  I told him
to put it aside, because I'm fairly sure sombody here will want it.

Phone is: (650) 424-9891.  Tell him I sent you.  Price is negotiable.

- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:15:29 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System.

On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:32:45 +0000 trisen@postmaster.co.uk writes:

>
>What a bargain!  Traveller is 2 games in one:  it  comes  in  kit
>form, then there is the game itself.  Perhaps  the  cover  should
>read "some assembly may be required".  GDW  didn't  just  produce
>Traveller, it produced a 'game design workshop'.
>


An absolute truth.  This is the only system I've ever seen that allows so
much expansion and variation.  I've played in the original CT, played MT,
but not in the time period of the rebellion, and I've had FF&S 1 and 2. 
Now, as an engineer, I can't help tinkering (took a gas heater apart when
i was 8, good thing it was summertime!!!)  Anyway, I guess I must fall in
the gearhead category, but this is the best, most accessible game I've
ever seen.  Sure, theres Star Wars, and others that are clean, glossy,
simple, but then, if we wanted those things so darn badly, we'd be
playing those instead of Traveller, right?  One thing I've noticed since
joining the list, we're all passionate about our feel for whats right in
this game.  We seem to be letting this get in the way of productive
discussions though.  So, I would like to posit a few concepts, take your
best shots at em......

What ever era you play in, I'll bet its different than the next guy's
game in the same era.

What ever rule set you use (CT, MT, T4, etc.) I'll bet you have at least
5 homebrew rules for it.  

What ever rule set you use, I'll bet you have adjusted the TL of at least
2 items, so it *fits* better.

I'd say at least half of you have seriously considered making a totally
new background for a campaign.

Now I know, I have been building a totally new campaign for the last
couple of weeks or so, with a new background, modified technologies, its
own unique empires, collectives, companies, etc., so my opinions may only
be that.  I'll keep being a gear head, and sit for at least an hour a day
cranking out new FF&S 2 designs on my spreadsheet, and enjoy the heck out
of it.  Lets just say that there are as many different games out there as
there are of us.  Some are closer than others, some not.  But lets get
back to discussions of mechanics, new task systems, technology, and
methodology (nice post on that by Eric Holmes).  Enough discussion on
what is or is not canon, Canon, cannon, kinnen, conan, or such.

OK?


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:16:42 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Strange question...

At 11:05 AM 3/27/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I have a strange question...
>
>Anyone out there know the _exact_ quote from the original traveller boxed
>set...you know, the "Mayday, mayday...free trader beowulf..."

(Formatted for 10pt Courier New)

This is Free Trader Beowulf,
calling anyone...
Mayday, Mayday... we are under
attack... main drive is gone..
turret number one not responding...
Mayday... losing cabin pressure
fast... calling anyone... please help...
This is Free trader Beowulf...
                          Mayday...

- ------------------------------------------
              TRAVELLER
              Science-Fiction Adventure in
              the Far Future


- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:10:55 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #309

> 
> In the NZ Army our NCO ranks how they're addressed goes something like 
> this:
>
> Staff Sergeant  "Staff" calling them "Sergeant" is very, very stupid.
> 

Calling a USMC Staff Sergeant "Staff" was very stupid.  This is a kind
of sexually transmitted disease....  staph....

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:34:03 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Noncanon (Encore!)

>Mathew Harelick writes:
>
>>The only way that GURPS Traveller can become non-canon is to allow
>>FTL Communication which is allowed in GURPS rules. I think that LW will
>>make sure that doesn't happen however.
>
>   <sigh>
>
>   So when we do we get the official Traveller rules for time travel, Marc?
>Will it be in the basic "T4.1" manual or will it be a seperate sourcebook?
>Afterall, it's not FTL communications....
>
>   It appears that I am a voice in the wilderness--or maybe I've just made
>too many kill files.

I agree with Harold.  I just think its a silly debate.  Were it not for the
above plea for others agreeing with you I'd have skipped this post
entirely.  I feel more strongly that this is "noise" to my "signal" than I
do about the subject itself.

Meanwhile, obusefultrav and still ontopic from the header, anyone know the
muzzle velocity of a TL4 canon known as a "4 pounder?"  I think that was
the 'standard' of the British forces in Napoleanic times, right?

Anyone have opinions about the use of heavy vehicular weapons against
starships at close range?  Like the MT RPX Fusion gun vs a 30 ton ship's
boat at, say, 1000 meters.  Now that's a canon.

(Isn't distraction one of the principles of Jiu-Jitsu?)

Pete (who will determinedly ignore any messages related to spelling errors)




                       Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:03:12 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Constructively handwaving G:T into the Storyline

Greetings,
     I appreciate the comments made by people about "Canon Storyline" and
so forth. I make the following suggestion as a way everyone can "agree to
differ" but still engage in positive dialog.
     I think we can pretty much assume that G:T is going to be mostly the
same sort of stable setting as CT. Yes, Loren hints at some underlying
friction, but obviously that can't be too much otherwise we'd just have
Rebellion which, we know by contract, isn't going to happen. So what I'd do
is assume that Strephon does carry on, serve his term as emporer and his
son Strephon II ascends the throne. _He_ is the one that gets assassinated
and start the whole cascade leading, ultimately, to the TNE setting. [In
fact, if Loren emphaises the growing instability of the Imperium that might
make for a cleaner segue into Rebellion rather than the rather sudden
collapse we were presented with.]
     For the day to day running of things in a RC campaign, moving the
death of the Imperium just one Emporer down the line shouldn't affect
things too much. Since the reign of a successor to Strephon is likely to be
well down the line from anything G:T produces that sort of assumption
shouldn't affect that either. Thus the two can co-exist without too many
problems.
     Sure, this sort of cut & paste stuff isn't stricly Storyline Canon,
and is unnecessary for those running things downstream who want nothing to
do with G:T. But if you are than maybe consider this a possible way to
allow you rationalise some G:T material without invaliding your setting.
     Cheers,
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:53:29 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller: CCG [Was Re: <Sigh>]

>Harold D. Hale wrote:
>
>>    FYI: Does the phrase Magic: Traveller mean anything to anyone? <shudder>
>
>No way!  INWO:CCG:The Traveller Setting!  This would be great.  At least
>from this
>INWO: CCG fan.
>
>Loren, get the card game guys going on this, please!

Go to the CORE Web site and click on the Abellatra proposal.  Jo Grant has
the basic framework of a CCG for Traveller worked out to some extent, but
stalled when he couldn't see any support from this list.

I'm afraid the time for a real, mainstream CCG has passed, which doesn't
mean there's no place for a fan supported effort...


Core is at http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/

Pete


                       Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:22:53 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Noncanon (Encore!)

On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:34:03 -0500 "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
writes:

>
>Anyone have opinions about the use of heavy vehicular weapons against
>starships at close range?  Like the MT RPX Fusion gun vs a 30 ton 
>ship's
>boat at, say, 1000 meters.  Now that's a canon.


Alright!  A subject with some merit.  I'm presently designing a special
ship for my campaign, the Diasporan Systems, Inc. StarBrick drop box. 
Used by the Human Unity (one of the nasties in the campaign)  this
HEAVILY ARMORED 5000 dTon streamlined box is used for insertion of Unity
marines directly into combat situations.  It is carried by large troop
transports and dropped from low orbit right on top of enemy positions. 
No Starship Troopers though, you can expect any planetary defenses to be
getting hammer......er.......suppressed  while this is going on!!!  While
this vehicle is TL 17 (!!!) it still uses HePlaR drives for landing,
primarily for their shock and damage value.  Now, fusion guns.  I'm
designing these from FF&S2, and dont have those stats yet, but on each
corner of the hull, as well as on the dorsal and ventral surfaces, are
large turrets for fusion guns.  Not only intended for hammering the
enemie's ground positions, these are also provided with fire control to
allow them to be used in the air defense and point defense modes.  Darn
right a fusion gun can be used against ships at point blank ranges.  As
long as your FC can track em, you can shoot em.  30 ton ship's boat? 
That poor suckers toast!!!  I'll post the stats on this ship sometime
next week.



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #323
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 324



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Non-Canon stuff etc.
RE: Strange question...
Re: Traveller:  The Game System.
Re: Imperial ID
Re: G:T (or GURPS: Traveller or T5 or...)
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Re: Handwaves, handshakes
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:37:12 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Non-Canon stuff etc.

(With respects to Harold)

When I get really offended I get incoherent. I was really offended to hear
the 'kick GT off the list' demands and I started frothing. I've not stopped
yet.

Coherent mode on:

1. I know GT uses a variant timeline. I know that. I KNOW THAT. 

2. MT and TNE are later versions of the game. Thus they're variants.
Official or no, they're variants of the original. Yet they're OK to discuss
on the list....

3. G:T IS TRAVELLER. It's set in the Traveller universe... written by
Traveller players and designers to be Traveller. Not 'based on' Traveller,
but in content and concept a version of the Traveller game, right from the
hearts of people who love Traveller, to be a valid Traveller game,
alternate timeline and all. It's Traveller because the intent of the
writers - who should know what it is to be Traveller! - was to write a game
about which cold be said: 'We're playing Traveller tonight'.

4. Supposing I rewrote The Khiidkar Incident to use GURPS rules, and set it
in the GT stable Imperium (it could be fitted in anywhere). Would it cease
to be Traveller? no. Because I wrote it to be a Traveller scenario. Not 'a
scenario based upon some of the concepts relating to Traveller', except in
the same way that everything published after the 3 small black rulebooks
eas based upon what was in them.

5. You can hairsplit all you like. You can argue that divergent timelines
make it non-traveller. You can lecture me about what sort of canon
violations are acceptable and which aren't. You can send the Traveller
Inquisition to my house if you like. I don't care. Because Traveller is not
easily definable. There is no one clear-cut concept which is right and all
others wrong. What there is has little dio do with logical hairsplitting,
corrections of each other's semantics and general sniping. I'm not
interested in that. 

6. What I am interested in is intent. The pure and wholehearted intent to
produce a Traveller game. The same intent that led down the Rebellion and
TNE path. The same intent that launched CT. An intent that comes from the
heart and not from some small-minded desire 'to be right'. The intent is
for GT to be a Traveller game. Therefore it has a place on the list and I
will defend that place against all comers.

7. I have a 50% Traveller scenario here. 50% as in Schrodinger's cat is 50%
alive. Y'see, I haven't decided who to submit it to. If I send it to SJG,
does it cease to be Traveller? (I know that some of us will say yes, and
provide many reasons why. I laugh derisively in their faces, for my intent
was pure. I wrote a Traveller scenario. I know what it is.)

8. I'm just really sick of this, but so offended that I can't let it go.
I'll say it again. GT is Traveller - with an unofficial timeline - and has
a place on this list. If you can't handle that then please go away.

9. And try to remember: Traveller came before the Imperium. The three
rulebooks were a generic system which could use any setting. It was just a
certain 'feeling' that made it Traveller: projectile firearms, jump drive
taking one week, no FTL radio, no magic force fields or trasnporters.....
THEN along came the Imperium with its oh-so-vital-and-sacred timeline.
Traveller predates the storyline canon, therefore being non-official in
terms of storyline does not stop the game being Traveller in the same way
that the Imperium of Adventure 1 was just a setting for Traveller. It becae
the official one, but.... aw, that's enough logical stuff. My brain typed
all that. 

10. My heart says.... who cares? G:T is Traveller because it looks, smells
and feels like Traveller. Because the writers intend it to be Traveller.
Play it, or ignore it. The world is imperfect, and GT is now part of that
imperfection, as are we all. Just cope.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:47:20 -0600
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: Strange question...

> Andrew Akins asked:
>
>Anyone out there know the _exact_ quote from the original traveller
>boxed set...you know, the "Mayday, mayday...free trader beowulf..."
>
>I'd appreciate it if anyone could tell me...

"This is Free Trader Beowulf,
           Calling anyone...
          Mayday, Mayday...
         We are under attack...
           Main drive is gone...
Turret number one is not responding...
                  Mayday...
       Losing cabin pressure fast...
             Calling anyone...
                Please help...
      This is Free Trader Beowulf...
                   Mayday...."

The above taken from Keith Walsh's "Free Trader Beowulf"
site at:
             http://cube.ice.net/~kwalsh/trav2.html

Check it out!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:36:09 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System.

At 12:26 PM 3/26/98 -0800, Ken B. wrote:
>james a clem wrote:
>
>> Well, IG may fold, just as GDW (rest their souls) did.  With as many of
>> us who are clearly passionate about Traveller in ALL its incarnations,
>> the game will survive.  I, for one, am not worried about it!
>
>That's true.  I've got enough Trav stuff to play the rest of my life.  I'll
>probably never play it all.
>
>But, I am tired of playing a broken game system.  I've got this
>mis-matched, stuck together rules system incorporating the best parts of
>each of the four editions.  Actually, it's the T4 system, using my task
>system and the best things from the other three systems.

There is no such thing as a fixed game system.

I have played (for more than five sessions) AD&D, Falkenstein, Amber,
RuneQuest, all four Traveller versions, James Bond, Top Secret, Gurps,
Hero, SuperWorld, Space Opera, and so on.  Only Traveller and Runequest
have supported games that ran for more than a year.

They all sorta worked, but they all lost it eventually.  For example, I
have not rolled a task in Traveller in six months, though I have throw
oracle dice roughly four or five times in that period.  (When the players
do something, and success matters, but I have not thought out the plot, and
do not have a clear conception of whether they will succeed, I grab a
handful of dice, and toss them, and from that, figure out whether things
went well or badly, and what kind of variance there was.)

I keep returning to Traveller, and Runequest for the backgrounds and for
certain parts of the rule systems.  I am slowly working towards my own set
of minimal rules that covers everything.  I am thinking of making a set of
Falkenstein skills that cover an outer space game, and then making a set of
growth patterns that cover change with time.  I can then graft the real
world physics of the world onto the character abilities.

>I'm tired of always having to fix something.  Traveller takes so much
>work.  I love the setting and the universe--that's why I've stuck with
>it--but it takes so much damn time to play a game of Traveller as opposed
>to some other RPGs.

I find the opposite - once I have a decent system put together, I ignore
most of the rules.  It is background that saves me time, and Traveller and
RQ have the best backgrounds out there.  In general, once you strip away
the foolish rules, the rest of it makes a lot of sense.

>I could just pick a system--say, the CT system--and exclusively play with
>that, but I have a problem in that I think the T4 system is the best one
>yet (after you fix what needs fixing--like the task system).  So, I'm
>unhappy with any of the Traveller systems as is.

This is not a problem.  At least the T4 stuff is still out there, and the
Gurps folks will be creating new things with similar assumptions to those
you are used to, and a common history, up to a point.

>This is why I was so looking forward to T4.1.  My hopes were to get it,
>read it, and be so pleased with it that I would use it
>exclusively--adapting all other Traveller material to it.


I suspect it will still get published by someone.  Marc is not going to
waste his time with a book that will never be published.  He is too smart
for that, so if IG folds, 4.1 will come from somewhere, I suspect.

>Now, it looks like T4.1 won't be published.

More properly, it looks like IG will fold.  T4.1 may well come into existence.

>I pulled out my Star Wars game stuff last night--now, there's a game.  It's
>simple, clean, and probably one of the best game systems on the market.

I read it, and it did not have enough meat for me.  Space Opera was much
more fun for space opera in my opinion, though it's combat was so
complicated as to be unplayable.  Gurps Lensman was good space opera.
>It's a different type of game than Traveller, a Space Opera as opposed to
>Hard Core Science Fiction, but the books and supplements are put together
>so well.

Good production values are neat.  That is what attracted me about
Millennium's End.

>They are easy to understand.  They look great.  And, you don't get all of
>the contradictory rules and bugs that has plagued Traveller's four
>editions.

Fewer editions -> fewer bugs.  The more you model the real world, the more
work it takes, and the longer you live, the more rules you get.  Gurps has
managed change fairly well, I think, but is not good about providing
adventure fodder.

>I can pick up the one rule book for Star Wars, read it, and begin playing
>without many of the problems I have with Traveller.

Try Falkenstein or Gurps Lensman, then.  They may fit your style better.
Traveller has complexity partly because it has so much history in it.

>As a matter of fact, I haven't felt good about Traveller rules since the
>DGP days--that was the only company, IG included, IMNSHO, which made
>quality Traveller stuff.

DGP has certainly made the best stuff in Traveller history, even if the
physics did have gaps and they got lazy about world generation.  They
certainly had a far better understanding of how to run a game than anyone
else I have seen in the Traveller stable, though this is open to argument.
Partly, I just thought the feel of the NE was repellant, so it was hard to
like Dave Nilsen's stuff.

>Traveller, for me, is a case of the love of the universe outweighing the
>dislike for the many thrown together, non-compatible rules systems the game
>has had.

Be warned, switching game systems does not help.  Every system has rules
flaws, at least if you are a rules lawyer.  From your work on the task
system, I would say you are.  I am when it comes to craft design and
economics, and I screw with every system I use in these areas.

>>From the looks of things, I'd say Traveller's designers feel the same way.
>They don't improve the game within the Traveller line.  They just design an
>entirely new game and slap Traveller's name on it.
Yes and no - the time scales involved were quite long.  In the same period
of time, D&D changed roughly as much.  Further, a CT adventure was quite
playable in MT with the MT rules, and often benefited.  It was with the New
Era that the system changed completely.


...

>With a Trav adventure (most of the time), I've got to do a lot of
>work--roll up adversaries and NPC's, create deck plans and building
>floorplans, use vehicles and ships created with non-standardized design
>systems....etc...WHAT A HEADACHE!

This has been a failing of many systems for some time.  I do not understand
why authors find it so hard to just generate up a few damn maps.  As far as
NPCs go, you may be working too hard.  I generated up some blank ones, and
got a wonderful book on character names from Writers Digest, and now I
generate everyone on the fly.

>Oh, sure.  There's a quick fix here and there.  All GM's that I know of do
>this.  But, usually, for me, this is nothing more than a couple of pencil
>marks in the margin.
>
>No so with Traveller.  I have reams (litterally) of paper printed out with
>rules fixes and rules replacements because I don't think what I buy from
>Traveller's various publishers is good enough.
>
>Other game companies can do it--why can't they do it for Traveller?

Two reasons - IG did not have the desire for decent production values that
SJG does.  2.  Traveller attempts to model the real world, not a fantasy
world, which means things are harder.  RQ did a good job in the fantasy
arena, partly because the authors were SCA people.  It is hard to do that
in Traveller without a few engineers on staff, and engineers are expensive
people.

>They should put together all of the old Traveller editions, pick the best
>of each system, and incorporte it all into one, big, great, awesome
>Traveller rules system.

You mean, a fifth new rules system?  This is the same argument I suspect
they have used before to justify the previous three successors to CT.  I
thought MT was better than CT, and I am sure Dave, Loren, and Co. thought
that TNE was better than the previous two.  Coming out with FF&S was one of
the best moves I have ever seen a gaming company make.

>If they do this, and start producing with the quality of DGP, they might
>have a shot.
>
>But, I don't think this will happen.  And, I think I'm going to go play
>Star Wars.

Enjoy Star Wars - it seems reasonably well supported, and at least you do
not have to explain the universe to new players.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:13:21 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

At 07:29 AM 3/27/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I'm a little curious.. since my view of the Imperium's relations with it's
>individual citizens has always been rather remote, much like the average
>American is aware that we are part of the United Nations, I wonder how
>common such an ID would be?

I rule that anyone who travels off planet must have such a thing, much like
anyone travelling out of country needs one today in many countries.

I also have made that change that only a small fraction of people are
citizens - I am currently trying to find a way to get roughly 1-5% of the
people citizenship.  right now, I am using nobles and honorably discharged
veterans in Imperial service, plus those members of planetary armed forces
who received Imperial training and took an Imperial oath.

All Imperial citizens have such an ID, while all Planetary citizens may
apply for one for travel purposes.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:25:50 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: G:T (or GURPS: Traveller or T5 or...)

At 11:10 AM 3/27/98 -0600, David Smart wrote:
>I'd greatly appreciate _details_ about why some
>of you don't like the GURPS rules.

<The part I should have sent just to David>

Fairly simple - point based systems lead to a kind of minmax character
generation that annoys me.  (e.g. always buy very high stats, and then you
are good at everything.  Individual skills are not cost effective.)  I
would much rather have a Falkenstein or Amber style game where a lot less
is written down, and I have to play it more by ear.  Further, GURPS is a
system made to answer many potential questions, which constrains the game a
bit much, and adds to the accounting burden of the game.

FWIW, the GURPS players I know do not see these as great problems, it is
just not my style of game.  I did play a Traveller game under Gurps rules,
and it went OK, but not stellar.  As a result, I suspect that if you did
not find any serious flaws in the GURPS rulebook, you probably won't have
real problems in play.

<The part that justifies sending it to the list>

I am now moving to a new rules hybrid:

There are on the order 24 skills.  These include physical stats as well as
skills, and a character will rarely be notable in more than two or three,
and might have familiarity with one or two more.

Combat is log-based, such that if your armor is substantially better than
the attack, or your skill is substantially better than the opponent, then
you win.  If they are equal, then details matter, and if they are worse,
you lose.  Ties are pretty rare.

Tasks still exist, and may even name Traveller skills, but are all resolved
based on the 24 master skills, and the more numerous Traveller skills are
all subsumed by them.  The others are "color."

I understand Corps has a much smaller skill tree.  Does anyone have such a
list put together for Traveller skills?  Or, for that matter, a short list
of the real categories of character archetypes you have seen in Traveller
games?

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:58:39 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

> All of these above are DGP people.  They also did the "Knightfall" adventure
> scenario.

Thanks for the clarification.  Are you sure that Frank Chadwick was DGP? 
He is listed in the credits of CT books, MT books and TNE books.  Did he
leave GDW and come back?

> > Shadows, Annic Nova, um...  The Kinunir.  All had everything you needed
> > right at your fingertips.  Just off the top of my head.
> 
> Not like a Star Wars or a D&D module.

You said modules that can be run as they are with no need to do any work. 
All three of these adventures can be run straight from the book.  I'm not
exactly sure what you're getting at with this.  I could sit down with my
playing group on a Tuesday night and run any one of those adventures
without having to do any work.  That is what you were saying, right?

One of the three (the Annic Nova) you can put anywhere in the Traveller
universe, Shadows you could put on just about any world with a nasty
atmosphere, and the Kinunir assumes you are playing in the Spinward
Marches.  Each adventure has the full compliment of maps and descriptions
you would need.  The Kinunir has all NPCs listed in full.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:42:07 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

> From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>
> Well, the arguements that say they should exist also say they
> shouldn't be that expesive.  Also, who says they have to
> be retrofited?  The PCs just get them with the ship.

Okay, let's dip into real life her for a moment.  By your argument, every
factory in the United States is completely automated.  This is not true. 
It is "cheap," but it is cheap on a scale that is not beneficial to most
folks.

Take an automobile factory with a high level of automation as an example. 
Was installing the robots, creating the software, and interfacing the
hardware cheap?  Was ironing out the bugs in the automation process cheap? 
No.  But, it was cheaper in the long run than having people do the same
jobs.  It was cheap because the switch over was on a grand scale.  Does
that mean if I started up my own factory, automation would be cheap for me
to implement?  No.  Based  on my needs, it could be more expensive then I
could initially afford, and it could be completely cost ineffective in the
long run.  Expensive.

In the case of a series of automobile factories automation is "cheap".  In
the case of an individual widget factory automation is expensive.

Now, a free trader is made, say, with the intent of being crewed by people.
 AIs and an extremely high degree of automation weren't installed in the
ship initially because it was cheaper not to do so.  The intent was that
people would run the ship.  As a result, life support was installed,
command consoles, etc.  The AI to run the ship would be too expensive for
the average free trader crew to purchase and to upgrade.  Hence, the
automation has to be retrofitted.

> When the contact ships to arrange courses, get help, info, etc.
> they will notice if nobody answers.  I also makes a difference
> when the want to arrange a working passage.  If you give it
> more than a moments thought you can come up with more
> examples.

That's assuming with a 20th century view of things that "nobody would
answer".  That's kind of archaic 4000 years in the future.  This can be
easily remedied.  But this paragraph shows a massive rift between our
campaign styles.  When I'm running a game, the pilot switches his ship to
automated control for take offs and landings from population centers (where
big cargo ships would be going), as the on planet/in system space traffic
control grid is more efficient at making sure ships don't crash.  That's my
style.  There is no need to contact big cargo ships to arrange courses.  In
fact, it is required in my campaign that take-offs and landings from
population centers be strictly controlled by the space traffic control
folks.  There's too much of a chance of some hopped up, hotdog Free Trader
pilot buzzing the Grand Arcology and taking the top off in the process
(exposing its 10,000,000 inhabitants to the vacuum/ corrosive atmosphere/
very thin atmosphere/ what have you).

Working passage is something that I could never rectify in my own mind. 
You've got this huge cargo ship with tons of goods that a megacorp is
making a sickening profit off of, and they'll take Joe Schmoe, Free Trader,
on for a working passage without the ability to make a background check
(due to the Canon concept of extremely slow communications)?  He could be a
pirate plant, he could be a terrorist, he could be a spy or agent for
another Megacorp.  He could be any other sort of saboteur or loony or
whatever...  This doesn't fit with my own view of Megacorps.

Note, I'm not saying your view isn't valid, but just pointing out how this
is opposite of my own view of the way these things work.  

> Better than introducing a technology (which often is just as
> much I guess as the ones implement years ago) and then putting
> in handwaves so it doesn't break the background.  I don't
> have problems with many things (like updating computers a
> bit), but there are few things that are central such as
> communications and PC involvement.

If background gets broken, I will honestly shed no tears.  As I said, the
size of the resulting crack in the background should be taken into account,
which is where I came up with Big C Canon vs. Little c canon.  Big C Canon
stuff is the stuff that makes Traveller what it is, and has remained
through all four versions.  J-Drive: A cap of J-6, one week for a jump
regardless of distance.  Communications: Information travels only as fast
as your fastest jump.  Rulership: A noble class based on duty and honor
(although not always acting on those precepts), a high degree of autonomy
for individual member worlds.  Trade: Megacorporations dominate the space
lanes, but yet are so top heavy that various parts of the same Megacorp may
war with each other not realizing that they have the same parent, free
trade between individual planets.  Aliens:  The Various alien races and
their traits, a human dominated Imperium.

These are the Big C Canon concepts.  In addition, many huge historical
battles and events are big C Canon (too numerous to list here).

Everything else is little c canon, no matter how much each individual on
this list, or elsewhere, likes it.  Traveller should be flexible enough to
deal with new and real technologies or it will fail, plain and simple.  No
new player wants to take the time and learn about the background if his
intelligence is insulted when they say, "Well, the Imperium doesn't really
believe in automation, so computers aren't really all that important," when
the PC sitting across his room is a massive part of his life for work,
play, research, etc...

> I don't call automatic ships "tweaking".  It fundamentally alters
> the need to for just the kind of skills a PC is likely to
> have and the class of people they are going to interact with.

Yes.  Mass-produced automated ships with a very specific function is
tweaking.  It doesn't tear the Traveller universe in two.  PCs will still
have the same skills, and they will still interact with brokers, other free
traders, and the full spectrum that they did previously.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:38:54 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Handwaves, handshakes

> From: james a clem <warmind@juno.com>
> 
> We are forced to use handwaves in most areas.  So theres nothing on
> nano-tech or bio-engineering in Trav?  Big deal, make up something for
> you selves.  We seem to be a group capable of reasonable critical

I already do.  Nanotechnology plays a huge role in my campaign's subplot
involving the Ancients and a decimated seed colony.  Nanotech is in my
campaign in a manner that the players can see in certain equipment and
items.  Biotech exists, but doesn't have any direct effect on the PCs that
I've needed to explain or bring up just yet.  Neither of these things have
split Traveller asunder,  I might add.

> thinking.  By the way, all the talk of nano-tech, virtual reality,
> genetic engineering, cloning, and all the other so called controversial
> subjects of the day are largely hype and/or hysteria.  As an engineer
> myself, I find I have a vested interest in keeping up with such things,
> and so far, I have found little in any of these areas to get very wound
> up over.  True, they all have potential, but these are most likely far
> off, and we know that advances do not happen in any linear or truly
> predictable fashion.  Chaos theory folks.  What would Orville and Wilbur

Hype and hysteria?  Well, yes and no.  Sure, there's alot of hype about
these things today.  Apparently both the Japanese and NASA are both pouring
money into nanotech, so at the very least they believe there's something
more to it.  The Japanese are very driven in that direction.  Genetic
engineering?  Hardly hype.  There already exist a large number of things
that are the result of genetic engineering, there's that one cure for that
birth defect in the lungs (been a long time since I've read up on it, but
basically it is a re-engineered version of the common cold that fixes
it)...  Let's see, there's that algae that eats petroleum products they
made a while back.  There has been some engineering done on livestock and
food crops.  Hardly hype.  Virtual Reality?  I'll bite, even though that's
not one of the points that I was really driving at.  The U.S. Army has this
kickass tank simulation that is run on a network that allows tank crews to
practice their hearts out and skirmish with each other...  The U.S.
military (and the militaries of other countries I would imagine) have used
flight simulators with varying degrees of sophistication for years.  The
modelling of reality has resulted in increased efficiency in cars and
planes as the vehicle can be "built" before it needs to be built. 
Architects are using VR to check their final designs.  In the field of
chemistry, a special form of VR has been used for at least 20 years so that
creating chemical structures becomes as easy as playing with building
blocks...  Again, quite a bit more than hype.  Cloning is a great
achievement in and of itself, but it stands even more, as proof of how far
we'd come in such a seemingly short time.  That second clone was even more
important, because it opened the door for the possibility of organ
transplants and all kinds of crazy stuff like that.  I'd have to check my
articles again to give you the details.

So, no, I'm not an engineer, but I keep up with this stuff as a hobby.  But
as a hobbyist, I can already see that these things will play an important
role in our future.  Now, you say that these things are far off...  How far
off are they after all?  Traveller takes place thousands of years in the
future, is that far off enough?

> Wright have thought if you told them we'd be building aircraft like the
> B-52 within 40-50 years of their Flyer's first flight?  Technological
> predictions are only reasonably accurate within a couple of decades or
> so.  Another 100 years of progress might well produce things we can't
> even concieve of, or it might not.  So use those handwaves, they are as
> valid as anything else!!

Who knows what they would have thought.  I know that I am constantly amazed
at the little wonders in the world that didn't exist when I was growing up,
let alone when my parents were growing up.  But that's besides the point. 
Yes, technological predictions are only reasonably accurate within a couple
of decades or so...   Traveller was made 20 years ago.  The last widely
accepted major add-ons were written by DGP about 10 years ago.  TNE was
written 5 years ago.  The world changes.  I'm not saying these things
should become unchanging bitterly contested canon that 20 years from now
will be a perfect prediction of the future...  Hell no!  If I could predict
the future perfectly I'd be out playing the stock market, not in here
talking about a role-playing game...

Sure, predicting the future is not entirely accurate.  I never said it was.
 But we are playing a role-playing game set in the _future_...  Trying to
predict the future is downright required.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:18:46 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

> OK. I'll say up front I dont believe you can fit new technologies into
> Traveller without turning it into something else.

Then with this attitude my campaign is not Traveller.  I'll make sure to
boo-hoo about that later.  It is kind of insulting though that someone
would say this, considering that fact that a vast majority of the things
that are now canon Traveller (specifically technology-wise) weren't in the
original 3 LBBs.  So, if I come along now, I can't play "Traveller", but
those folks that happened to be lucky enough to write in to the old JTAS
when it was in its full glory were allowed to add stuff and still play
Traveller.

Personally, in my opinion, that's kind of skewed.

 > Lets go through some of the technologies  ...
> 
> Cyber/Bioware : Is in Traveller, as one of the things that the Solomani
did
> in the Good Old Days. Big social pressures against it. Imperium isnt that
> good at it - call it down 2 TLs. Having cyberwear in you can get you
> declared a machine, with associated loss of sentience rights, let alone
> Imperial Citizenship. The alternate view is to assume that skills, stat
> bonuses etc gained in charGen is from cyberwear etc - "Of course I'm a
> qualified Pilot. The Scout Service inserted the chip when I signed up,
back
> in '22".

Cybernetics is a touchy subject.  When this discussion first came up months
ago, I made great pains to point out that I'm not trying to turn Traveller
into cyberpunk or anything remotely resembling it.  This runs into problems
with game balance as well as aesthetics.  Personally, I'm a big believer
that people like to keep their bodies intact as much as possible, but, if
you start allowing all sorts of crazy cyberwear, then it becomes to the
players "advantage" to chop himself up and become decked out.

But this can be easily limited by a good GM with decent players.  Every
rules system is open to excess.  In fact, I can think of several methods
that would limit cybernetics even better than just saying, "the Imperium
jus' don' like it, thasall!"

Bioengineering on the other hand comes in so many different shapes and
sizes that, at least in my own humble opinion, would be all over the
Imperium.  Medical treatments, cloned limbs, etc...  Bioengineered plants
and animals helping to terraform a potential colony world.  Megacorp super
soldiers...  The possibilities are endless.  But bioengineering is one of
those things that already exists to some small extent within the framework
of the Imperium already.

It's where the bioengineering meets the cybernetics that's really
fascinating, at least to me.

> Nanomachines : These are one of those things that you cant have a little
> bit of. They will be a truly revolutionary technology, in a way jump
drives
> et al arent. Jump drives just do to space what the sail did for the sea.
> Nanofabrication units will revolutionise everything.

Yes, you can have a little bit of nanotech.  There are several different
theories as to how these things will be achieved.  And they are theories. 
This one would take alot of pondering and alot of thought which I'm not
prepared to do at this very moment.

Now, as I've stated, I've no problems with handwaves with good reason. 
Game balance is the best reason of them all.  If something doesn't fit with
the balance of the game, I'm all for tossing it without a second thought.

> AI : Is in Traveller, but either at TL17 or TL12, depending on your
> particular view on Virus. Interesting, limitable to certain extent by
> price, but fundamentally, the question you have good robots is "why do
they
> pay a human to do this when a machine does it better and cheaper ?".

That's only if the robots can do it better and cheaper, and, as with any
piece of machinery, things aren't sufficiently cheap unless they are made
in sufficiently great numbers.  In addition, what could make AIs more
expensive is a certain amount of psychological instability which has to be
"tested out" from models already made.  The complexity is so great that
even the tiniest variations in quality from one model to the next can have
dire consequences.  In the case of "strong" AI, which is programmed from
the top down, you'll stop at expert systems.  Relatively cheap, but
inflexible and focused on only one or two skills.  The ability to learn is
somewhat limited, and can be "switched off" to save resources.  In the case
of "weak" AI they would be grown from the ground up.  They would be far
more flexible and would be capable of a wide variety of different tasks. 
These versions would have a greater chance of being "psychologically"
unstable, and their creation would almost be more of an "art form" as
opposed to a flat-out scientific task.  They would be relatively expensive
as a result of this.  The "fine wines" of AI.

> Fusion : Once you have free power, manufacturing falls in cost to near
> nothing. We sidestepped this one in Traveller by pretending it doesnt.

Fine.  Then similar sidesteps can be made to insure that other technologies
aren't too overbearing or far ranging.

> And if you do it *because* you have assessed that the silver jumpsuits
and
> flying cars just wont exist in a world where you can directly interface
> with your computer ?

I was using the symbology of silver jumpsuits and flying cars to get across
the point that there is a cliff in the technological viewpoint of
Traveller.  It isn't just technology, there are cliffs in other things
concerning Traveller.  Specifically, it boils down to one thing.  There is
a "golden era" of Traveller and everybody's too afraid to do anything that
might upset that apple cart.  We all sit around with well worn old books
and anything that deviates from a paragraph in one of them is just blown
down and trampled.  This is where Traveller has run into a problem, and
this is a problem that will have to be faced if Trav is to have any sort of
renewed commercial success.  People (like myself) don't like and aren't
going to
like being told, "Hey!  You can't do that!  It violates a paragraph in a
book (or magazine) you have never seen that was published when you were six
when nobody thought of that concept yet!"

> I dont believe you can update the core technologies that underlay the
> storyline. You will have something, but not Traveller.

Then Traveller is dead in the water as far as a system goes.  If Traveller
is limited merely on the basis that new players can't tinker with it to
include the sci-fi concepts that they grew up on (which are different than
what the original Traveller generation grew up on) then Traveller cannot
attract any new blood.  It just so happens that I wasn't into Traveller
when I was 6...  So as a result, I don't have the same freedom that the
people who wrote for JTAS or the Traveller Digest, or DGP's supplements, or
the early Trav supplements had...

That will turn a hell of a lot of people off.  Plain and simple.

> I'd also like to point out that the other SF RPGs have also gone pretty
> badly, as far as survival goes.

Yes.  Traveller has managed to survive due to a dedicated core group of
players.  A dedicated core group that is ever dwindling due to attrition. 
If you can't keep the core audience, then you sure as hell are going to
have serious problems when it comes to attracting new ones.

> The vast majority (and I'm talking 95% plus) of cargo gets carried via
> shipping companies leasing space in freighters.

And probably the vast majority of cargo will be carried on Megacorporation
freighters in the future.  The Free Traders struggle for that extra 5%
which is still enough to turn a profit, thanks to their flexibility.  Not
sure what the problem is here.  At least this is how I personally
envision the effects of Megacorps in the Imperium.

> Such as ? Free Traders are a wonderfully romantic concept, and an
excellent
> way of turning a starship deposit into nothing.

Such as anything that the megacorps won't handle.  Arms shipments to small
guerilla bands, illegal cargos (either illegal at the world of creation,
smuggled out, or illegal at the receiving world, smuggled in).  Cargos that
don't work out to be profitable in bulk, but a Free Trader crew can turn a
profit on (live animals, exotic fruits, vegetables and spices).  Cargos
that Megacorps haven't made deals with the manufacturers or distributors
yet...

The list could literally go on and on.  The wide variety of individual
member worlds and possible cargos to and from those worlds makes an
infinite amount of possibilities for the PCs to be able move goods.

> If you want to make money, lease the ship and own the cargo. 
> 
> Of course, that is far less romantic :)

Of course.  :^)

> If you want an 'adventuring' background, then you are going to have to
> start handwaving like crazy.

No.  There's always room for adventure in any society.  Especially since
deviation from major canon points would be kept to an absolute minimum.

> The background hangs together as it does for a number of reasons. One of
> the advantages of this list is you can start messing around with it, and
> engineers, astronomers, economists, and all sorts of other sods and bods
> can give their view.

And if anything I fiddle with violates a paragraph in a book published a
couple years after I was born, then I will hear about it, often rudely.

> My view is that essentially Traveller is about trying to recreate the Age
> of Adventure - the era between the Age of Exploration and the invention
of
> the telegraph, which allowed some Regimental commander in the North-West
> Frontier to be micro-managed by thin-blooded bureaucrats in Whitehall.

My view of the Traveller universe is entirely different.  My view is that
it's something that is so huge and new that you can't just say, "Well, it's
kind of like the 19th Century only this time with lasers and spaceships". 
That was the original intent of the game, but since then it has grown and
matured by leaps and bounds and is something that is fascinating in its own
right.  That's what I like.  For example, the existence of Imperium-wide
Megacorporations changes the dynamic immensely.  If you've got these huge
monolithic corporations, why would they pull their punches so that the PCs
can actually find viable trade routes?  They wouldn't do that.  They would
build huge freighters and establish profitable trade routes and try to cut
the little guy out anywhere they could.  That's the nature of a huge
business like that,  and that's Canon, whether it's romantic or not, and
whether the cargo ships are automated or not that's the way that things
would be...

As I've said, I don't want slavish devotion to reality here.  It's a game. 
I like the simplest route when playing a game.  I describe to the PCs what
needs to be described, we play, we have a good time.  When I go home, I
work on my own campaign background, my adventure for next week, and I try
to work things in that the PCs are interested in.  My request for an update
in Traveller's technology to bring it more in tune with reality isn't an
attempt to further bog down the game with pages and pages of description
that have to be read to the PCs and slow everything down...  It's an
attempt to free it up, and point out the major thing that I see as being
horribly wrong with Traveller and what keeps new players away.

Roleplaying has changed alot in the last 20 years (some of my very earliest
memories are of D&D), and I've grown up with roleplaying.  Sci-fi has
changed alot in 20 years too...  And I think to a large extent that
Traveller should change with sci-fi and not lay muddled in the morass of
the "old school".  It's going to stagnate there, and I don't like the
thought at all.  I want to see new people with new ideas and new ways of
looking at things.  A new take on a game that I love so much...

That's all.  Nothing more.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #324
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 325



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

An idea...
Re: Imperial ID - too much stuff
The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)
Re: GURPS:TRAVELLER and Harold....
Traveller Hero
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: An idea...
Re: Non-Canon stuff etc.
Re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)
Re: In A Store Near You: BioJewels
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #309
Re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)
Re: Traveller: The Game System.
Re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)
Re: Non-Canon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:22:28 -0600
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: An idea...

I had this idea today that might be kinda cool for Traveller players...but
I'm not an artist, so I was wondering if anyone would be willing to help...

I was thinking about a Traveller desktop themeset for Windows 95 (or
Mac...). You know, there are tons of these things out on the net for
movies/tv shows/people...why not Traveller? It could be a clever marketing
toy for IG or SJG...icons and a background. Of course, there are no "real"
Traveller sounds, but hey...the graphics could be cool.

My ideas (These are windows-centric, simply cause I'm a windows user...I'm
sure they would be useful to Mac and Linux users as well, assming they were
made in a format that could be converted...):
  My Computer icon - Imperial Sunburst
  Network Neighborhood - Scout/Courier
  Recycle Bin Empty - Another ship (maybe free trader?)
  Recycle Bin Full - Same ship, exploding
  Background - Starfield, with the "Mayday, mayday" CT Traveller message in
the upper right.

Of course, there could also be versions for TNE and MT and T4...with
different icons and/or backgrounds.

I made a feeble attempt to do this...but I have very little artistic talent
:) Lets just say that the results were very un-impressive :) I was wondering
if anyone out there in TML-land would be willing to contribute to such a
project - I'd be happy to host the resulting items on my website (which is
undergoing a refit right now).

Opinions welcome...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:19:31 -0500
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Imperial ID - too much stuff

Douglas Berry's replying to my eralier posts; I'm snipping most of it,
up to the point where I have a problem.

  Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:36:06 -0800
  From: dberry@hooked.net
  Subject: Re: Imperial ID - too much stuff  

  At 11:40 AM 3/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
  >After my own post suggesting adding stuff (medical information, for
  >example) to Imperial IDs, I'll comment that we're going overboard.
  >
  >When everything is working right and everybody is honest, sure,
  >putting all your information on one card is a good thing.
  
  <Snip>
  
  >Similarly, do you want to put your Imp ID into a bank machine you
  >don't necessarily trust?
  
  I use daily a Bank of America VISA card that contains a great deal of
  information about me.  I do buy things over the net, and use the card to
  order pizza (frequently).  I do not worry overly much about the security of
  the card, since from what I've seen, VISA and BofA do a good job of
  protecting their customers.
  
Simple scenario which illustrates why the your imperial ID should be
used for official ID verification:

OK, this Imperial ID functions as your bank card on planet fubar.
It's evening and you want some credits to go have dinner at your
favorite restaurant which happens to not take cards (they exist).  You
walk to the Bank of Fubar ATM, slide your card in, punch in your code.

Unfortunately, this ATM has a faulty palm reader/ retinal scanner/
camera/ whaever, decides you aren't you.  Rather than return your
"stolen" card, it retains it.[*]  Who knows, it might even inform the
police of a retained Imperial ID.  The fact is, however, that you no
longer have your ID.  Or your bank card.  Or any money to get home.
Tomorrow, when Bank of Fubar opens, you can get someone to pull out
your card, verify you are you, and give it back.  Tonight you're SOL,
with no dinner, no place to sleep, and no identification to show the
cops when they wake you up off that bench.

My claim is that there will be a crop of "official" ID readers, with a
nice official seal.  Naturally, these are rented for a fairly hefty
sum, to compensate the Imperium.  Any corporation which needs to
identify you will generate their own IDs, fulfilling their own level
of security (and paranoia), based on your Imperial ID.

In the above scenario, the ATM retains my bank card, legally, but I
still have my Imperial ID.  When the cops come by to roust me off the
bench, the little card which says "Must take this medicine because of
recent operation" is still on my person when they take me away.




  
  Let's say that I'm a business man, about travel from Regina to Efate.  I
  recently moved, and had my appendix removed.  I go to the Consulate,
  present my ID, and state the changes needed.  The computer then checks my
  story.  It confirms that someone with my name did sell a property at the
  address listed on my ID, and purchased a house at the address given.
  Medical records from the Cynthia Alledon Memorial Hospital indicate that I
  was admitted with pre-critical appendicitis on 076-1104, and removal was
  accomplished on an outpatient basis.  While this going on, both the clerk
  and sensors are double-checking me personally.  Looking obvious deviances
  from the card.

Let's say prior to this you put your card into an unofficial machine.
It sucked every bit of information about you into its memory.  Someone
manufactures a fake, with your information except his description,
palmprint, etc.  Normally this would be really hard because you'd have
to go all over the galaxy to get it, but you've handed it to them.
The possibilities are varied at this point.

Unlikely?  Someone once set up a bank machine which wasn't plugged
into the network, and simply spat cards back out "unable to complete
this transaction".  End of the day, they had a nice long list of ID
numbers and PINs.  Instead of stealing money, you're smuggling
criminals offplanet -- something the Imperium doesn't want.  They can
slow it down by saying "Here are the official IID readers.  Don't put
your card in anything else."


In short, I think the IID is useful for
a. officially identifying you
b. Information which is updated infrequently, should be available, and
can be read off it with the Mark I eyeball.

	-Robert Ringrose
	 ringrose@ai.mit.edu

[*] Another reason corps give out their own ID.  Ever looked at a
credit card and noticed that it says something approximating "Card
remains bank property"?  This is so that, legally, they can take it
back.  Legally, my scenario isn't quite correct without a few changes
in laws to allow a fradulently used Imperial ID to be retained.  Makes
sense, though.  If you're running around with someone else's Imperial
ID, who has the right to take it away?

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 1998 15:26 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)

The IMTU Code is a rip-off of the "Geek Code".  Display it on 
postings to the TML, so everyone knows where you're coming from!

- -Rob  
 IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+


- ---------------- The Code of the Traveller Geeks v1.0 --------------------
- ----------------------    March 27, 1998    ------------------------------

So you think you are a Traveller geek (T-geek), eh?  The first step is to 
admit to yourself your T-geekiness.  No matter what anyone says, T-geeks are 
people too; T-geeks have rights.  So take a deep breath and announce to the 
world that you are a T-geek.  Your courage will give you strength that will 
last you forever.

How to tell the world you are a Traveller geek, you ask?  Use the universal 
IMTU code.  By joining the T-geek organization, you have license to use this
special code that will allow you to let other un-closeted T-geeks know who
you are in a simple, codified statement.

The single best way to announce your T-geekhood is to add your IMTU code to
signature file and announce it far and wide.  But be careful, you may give
other T-geeks the courage to come out of the closet.  You might want to hang
on to your copy of the code in order to help them along.

- ---------------------

INSTRUCTIONS:

The IMTU code consists of several categories.  Each category is labeled
with letters and some qualifiers.  Go through each category and determine
which set of qualifiers best describes your Traveller Universe Preferences
in that category.  By stringing all of these 'codes' together, you are able 
to construct your overall IMTU code.  It is this single line of code that 
will inform other T-geeks the world over of what a great T-geek you actually 
are.

Some of the qualifiers will very probably not match with your universe exactly.
Simply choose that qualifier that MOST CLOSELY matches it.  Also, some
activities described in a specific qualifier you may not engage in, while
you do engage in others.  Each description of each qualifier describes the
wide range of activities that apply, so as long as you match with one, you
can probably use that qualifier.

Also, pay particular attention to case-sensitivity, there may (in the
future) be a big difference between a 'tc' and a 'TC'.

- ----------------------

VARIABLES:

Traveller Universes can seldom be quantified.  To facilitate the fact that 
within any one category the T-geek may not be able determine a specific 
rating, variables have been designed to allow this range to be included.

        @       for variable, said trait is not very rigid, may change with
                time or with individual interaction.  For example, Geeks
                who happen to believe that jump torps exist but dislike 
                using them might list themselves as j+@.
        ()      for indicating "cross-overs" or ranges.  Geeks who go from
                tc+ to tc-- depending on the situation (i.e. mostly "tc+") could
                use tc+(--).  Another example might be an tc++(**).  This
                would be a person who mostly uses Classic Traveler, but
                also has an extensive collection of other types of works.
        >       for 'wannabe' ratings.  Indicating that while the geek is
                currently at one rating, they are striving to reach another.
                For example, ?t4>+
        $       Indicates that this particular category is done for a
                living.  For example, tg++$ indicates that the person
                utilizes GURPS Traveller and gets paid for it.  Quite a 
		lucky geek, for sure.

        @ is different from () in that () has finite limits within the
        category, while @ ranges all over.

*****************************************************************************
Section I: Rules Sets
*****************************************************************************
Classic Traveller:

	tc++	Bring back the LBBs!
	tc+	I appreciate this system and owe a lot to it.
	tc	It's a resource.
	tc-	I just can't see any reason to use it.
	tc--	I wouldn't let my ugliest, smelliest dog sit on these rules.
		It's a bane that would wreck Traveller forever if allowed
		to thrive.

	?tc	I don't know much
	!tc	I ignore these rules.

Likewise for the remaining rule sets:

	tm	MegaTraveller
	tn	TNE
	t4	T4
	tg	GURPS Traveller (for now, a mostly wannabe situation)
	tt	Traveller 2300
	to	Other rules set (CORPS, GW, etc)


Overall Rules Use:

	ru++	The Traveller rules are the best.
	ru+	The Traveller rules are superior to most.
	ru	I use the Traveller rules, more or less.
	ru-	I have modified significant portions of most of the Trav rules.
	ru--	I use mostly other rules systems.


Gearheadedness:

	ge++	Intricacy to the subatomic level, please!
	ge+	Details === Color
	ge	Some detail gives me the flexibility I need for the game.
	ge-	Too many rules and steps stifles me.
	ge--	Ack!  Must we try to explain everything?


Section II: Canonicity
*****************************************************************************
The 3rd Imperium:

	3i++	The 3I is a massive juggernaut, with an amazing tax
		base and thousands of SDBs in even minor systems.
		Interplanetary trade is robust.
		Many starports are huge city-sized affairs.
	3i+	The 3I is a powerful force to reckon with, with good
		control over most of its member worlds and the power
		to back its authority.
		Interplanetary trade is good on many worlds.
		Starports are planetary trade centers.
	3i	The 3I is a stable confederation, held together by the
		nobility of its population, but not all-powerful and
		overall not wealthy.
		Interplanetary trade is regular.
		Starports are common.
	3i-	The 3I is a loose, vulnerable sprawl of worlds, which
		by the way is no worse off than the other interstellar
		states.
		Interplanetary trade exists on major worlds.
		Starports are significant on major worlds but not so
		massive.
	3i--	The 3I is a picture of gross mismanagement over impossible
		distances.  It's a wonder it held together so long.
		Interplanetary trade exists on only the best worlds.
		Starports are, on the whole, rather weak things.

	!3i	IMTU, the 3I doesn't exist or is irrelevant.

Jump Tonnage:

	jt++	Jump torpedoes are not only canonical, but absolutely
		necessary for survival as we know it.
	jt+	Jump boats are do-able, economical in many cases, and cool.
	jt	Jumpships under 100t might exist in experimental form -- 
                but there are various problems with the design.
	jt-	Jumpships under 100t are too small, or they open too big 
		a can of worms.
	jt--	Small jumpships destroy Traveller.

	jt?	What's a jump torpedo?
	-jt+	Depends on my mood.

Starship Automation:

	au++	TL is sufficiently advanced that NO ONE need EVER crew
		a starship, unless it's just on the off chance of someone
		whacking the ship computers.
	au+	Starship automation is commonplace.
	a	Starship automation is in the trial phases, and has bugs
		to work out, or is quite expensive.
	au-	Starship automation doesn't work (for whatever reason).
	au--	Terrible things happen when the referee allows it!

Emperor Strephon:

	st++	Two timelines is a brilliant idea!
	st+	Two timelines will add flexibility to the game.
	st	Two timelines won't affect the game's popularity.
	st-	An extra timeline is a Bad Thing.
	st--	This will doom Traveller.

(see code for GURPS Traveller)


Life Support:

	ls++	Life support is very expensive and very difficult to work on!
	ls+	Life support is expensive and difficult to work on.
	ls	Life support can be do-it-yourself with off-the-shelf
		components.
	ls- 	Life support is a fraction of the cost published.
	ls--	Life support is absorbed in other misc expenses.


Section III: Aliens
*****************************************************************************
K'Kree:

	kk++	I like K'Kree roasted over a spit with BBQ sauce.
	kk+	I like K'Kree only if it the meat is mixed into a haggis.
	kk	K'Kree have a funny aftertaste...
	kk-	K'Kree smell funny.
	kk--	All K'Kree should be catapulted into the sun.

Hivers:
	hi++	Hivers are the Puppeteers from _Tales of Known Space_.  Fun!
	hi+	Hivers are convincingly alien.
	hi	Hivers are okay.
	hi-	I have some problems with Hivers.
	hi--	All Hivers should be ground into haggis.

You get the picture.  Follow the above model for:

	as	Aslan
	va	Vargr
	dr	Droyne
	
etc.

Section IV: Humaniti
*****************************************************************************
Solomani:

	so++	The heirs of the galaxy.
	so+	Basically a bunch of great guys.
	so	You know how humans are...
	so-	A bunch of bad eggs.  Rabble.  Trash.
	so--	Should be targetted for termination.

Likewise for:

	zh	Zhodani
	vi	Vilani
	da	Darrian
	sy	Sylean

etc.


*****************************************************************************
End of IMTU code version 1.0.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:25:48 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: GURPS:TRAVELLER and Harold....

Harold, I thought I'd keep you in the subject....  And some more flames
perhaps....
> 
> In my continuing effort to become the only subject on this list, 
> 
>    As for the balance of your comments, that is just what I was 
> referring to in my previous post--an attitude that there is something 
> being "won" here by the CTers.  I seem to recall similar statements of 
> victory in 1996 by others, followed by the usual denunciations when 
> that was presented as "the Messiah" didn't live up to the lofty 
> expectations of those proclaiming victory.

snipage

> 
> G:T is going to be by definition *GURPS*.  That Loren wants to 
> introduce GURPS players to Traveller is wonderful and what he has 
> planned should make for interesting reading for both GURPS and 
> Traveller players alike.  But it is not classic Traveller reborn.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Harold
> 

So does GURPS:Traveller have GURPS religion rules?  :->

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:40:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Traveller Hero

On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Smart, David wrote:

>              http://cube.ice.net/~kwalsh/trav2.html
> 
> Check it out!

I echo this recommendation.  Did anybody else ever try to run a campaign
in the 3I setting with the Hero System?  Are there any other websites
covering this topic? 


Clark


- --
"Remember, if you see a flash:  It's Duck!  And Cover!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:42:25 EST
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

Good post. I hope Marc and Steve see it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:55:41 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: An idea...

> I had this idea today that might be kinda cool for Traveller players...but
> I'm not an artist, so I was wondering if anyone would be willing to help...

Y'know, funny you should mention it!  :^)  I got this idea along with the
t-shirts but it is currently on the backburner as I have alot of stuff
(Trav and non-Trav) that I need to finish first...

> My ideas (These are windows-centric, simply cause I'm a windows user...I'm
> sure they would be useful to Mac and Linux users as well, assming they were
> made in a format that could be converted...):
>   My Computer icon - Imperial Sunburst
>   Network Neighborhood - Scout/Courier
>   Recycle Bin Empty - Another ship (maybe free trader?)
>   Recycle Bin Full - Same ship, exploding
>   Background - Starfield, with the "Mayday, mayday" CT Traveller message
in
> the upper right.

Here were my ideas:  

Mouse pointer - Scout/Courier
Recycle Bin Full - Shattered Imperial Starburst
Recycle Bin Empty - Imperial Starburst
Background - Starfield
My Computer - A nice earthlike planet

Those are my own ideas so far...  I'll get around to it eventually but i
have just WayTooManyThingsComingAtMeAtOnceIJustWantToScream!!!  :^)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:54:08 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Canon stuff etc.

>
>9. And try to remember: Traveller came before the Imperium. The three
>rulebooks were a generic system which could use any setting. It was just a
>certain 'feeling' that made it Traveller: projectile firearms, jump drive
>taking one week, no FTL radio, no magic force fields or trasnporters.....
>THEN along came the Imperium with its oh-so-vital-and-sacred timeline.
>Traveller predates the storyline canon, therefore being non-official in
>terms of storyline does not stop the game being Traveller in the same way
>that the Imperium of Adventure 1 was just a setting for Traveller. It becae
>the official one, but.... aw, that's enough logical stuff. My brain typed
>all that.
>
>

So, basically, the Imperium is NOT canon!  :)

- -Shawn

(Enjoy the insanity... while it lasts.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:51:08 +0000
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)

At 15:26 27/03/98 EST, "Robert Eaglestone" wrote:

>The IMTU Code is a rip-off of the "Geek Code".  Display it on 
>postings to the TML, so everyone knows where you're coming from!
>
>etc


Now is this Canon or what.


Dom

IMTU tc+ tm+ wh@(tn) t4+ ru+@ ge-@ jt++ ls st a kk-- hi+ as+ va++ da+ so+++ 
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:00:54 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: In A Store Near You: BioJewels

> From: Jeff Zeitlin <jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com>
>
> Ordinary jewelry depends on the ambient light for its best
> appearance.  BioJewels, produced by several corporations (most
> notably the three Vilani bureaux/megacorporations and the two
> Solomani-derived corporations Hortalez et cie and Schunamann und
> Sohn AG), depend on the wearer's lifesigns, instead, providing an
<snip-o-rama>

Damned cool post, Jeff.  Good seeing it.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:59:41 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

>    DGP people who were primarily responsible for MT's development.  Not
> listed is Loren Wiseman, another GDW employee, who is given credit for
> "killing" Strephon and coming up with the original concept.

Thanks for clearing that up Harold.  It seems that DGP stuff is hard to
find here in Philadelphia, although I keep looking.  I've made some amazing
finds both on the internet and my local used bookstores (got a whole mess
of LBBs and JTASs almost a year ago now.  Damned good find.  2 bucks a pop,
all excellent condition).  People seem to hang onto their DGP products like
crazy though :^)

The point of that was I am relatively unschooled in the world of DGP.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 08:48:47 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #309

At 01:10 PM 27/03/98 -0500, Greg wrote:
>> 
>> In the NZ Army our NCO ranks how they're addressed goes something like 
>> this:
>>
>> Staff Sergeant  "Staff" calling them "Sergeant" is very, very stupid.
>> 
>
>Calling a USMC Staff Sergeant "Staff" was very stupid.  This is a kind
>of sexually transmitted disease....  staph....
>
American English is wierder than I thought - "Staff" has always had a long
"a" sound like in "far", and "staph" a short "a" like in "cat". I can see
your point, though.


- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:07:44 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)

Coolness!

- -- 
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: 27 Mar 1998 16:20 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller: The Game System.

James quoth:

"What ever era you play in, I'll bet its different than the next guy's
game in the same era."

It's true.  I'm refereeing a group in the 11th century 3I.

"What ever rule set you use (CT, MT, T4, etc.) I'll bet you have at least
5 homebrew rules for it.  "

Lessee,
	1. no half-dice
	2. different sensor rules
	3. odd/sloppy ship designs
	4. B5-style PPG's (TL17)
	5. Shriekers are Chamaxi
	... and more.

By Jove, you're right!

"Whatever rule set you use, I'll bet you have adjusted the TL of at least
2 items, so it *fits* better."

H'mmm, lesse.  I don't know, but it's possible.


"I'd say at least half of you have seriously considered making a totally
new background for a campaign."

Already done it, in subsectors spin+rimward of the Marches.


Wow!

- ---

Can anyone recommend a fast and easy combat system?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:06:13 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)

CHEER!!! I love it!


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+)

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 22:27:34 +1
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@mail.baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: Non-Canon

> From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>
> The G:Trav timeline IS Canon, and so's the other one. It's like this:
> 
> The Imperium is part of Grandfather's ongoing experiment, his plan to
> evolve humans in many ways and then bring them all together, to play on
> their strengths as theEmpress Wave binds everyone together to create the
> new higher form of humans. Grandfather let the Rebellion play out, saw
> where it was going, and rejected that particular line of study.
> 
> Using his TL 32 time machine, he hopped back and changed a few things. This
> time the experiment is back on track.

ROFL!
 
> Yeah, right.

You've convinced me! ;-)
- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| Jonas.Karlsson@capgemini.se - jonask@io.com| not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #325
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 326



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #322
Canon vs. canon
Re: Imperial ID - too much stuff
Re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #309
Re: Noncanon (Encore!)
Re: Traveller:  The Game System.
munchkin tech
Re: Free Traders and Trade Stations
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #318
Re: Imperial ID - too much stuff
Re: G:T (or GURPS: Traveller or T5 or...)
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
citizenship and travel documentation in the Imperium (was:  Imperial ID)
(un)canon Kinunir
The Marc W. Millar Clinic
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:42:19 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #322

> 
> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:39:12 -0800
> From: dberry@hooked.net
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #318
> 
> At 10:49 PM 3/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >CT was the FIRST Space based role playing game (of any major consequence)
> >and the best!
> >
> >It still is the best. You would have had to been there in the "old days".
> >CT ruled!
> 
> *sigh*  Time to start building the Home for Old Traveller Fogies.. "why,
> when I was your age, we didn't have all this FFS to mess with.. we used
> generic rifles and we LIKED it!  Damn kids...mutter, mutter.. where's me
> Old Drug?"
> - --
> 


We also had to walk up HUGE hills in 7 feet of snow just to get to a game
which was held in an old barn with no heat or lights in sub-zero
temperatures. On the way home ( which was also up huge hills in 10 feet of
snow ) we had to fight off wolves and bears with our rule books and dice
bags...

We also had to solve several non-linear differential equations
(simultaneously) and at least one 765,667 x 345,678 (loaded with imaginary
numbers) matrix just to calculate the ships attempt to reach orbit.... with
nothing more that 100 year old slide rules and maybe an abacus....

You kids have it so easy today with so many games and rules to choose
from....
Cars... Computers.... Charts...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:55:34 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Canon vs. canon

Chris Seamans had some excellent arguments about automation and minor 
changes in the Traveller universe.  I agree totally, it is entirely 
possible to update Traveller in important ways and still have it be 
Traveller.

In many ways this has already been done.  Fancy (but non sentient) robots 
are in frequent use in the Imperium.  So does bioengineering and cyberware.
In the MT adventure Knightfall there are NPCs the crew meets who have had 
their entire bodies below the neck replaced by enhanced robotic bodies (they 
are nobles from an exotic world).  You can't get much exotic than this.  
The latest Traveller Chronicle introduces fancy bioengineering, and TNE 
introduced it in a more limited way.

The Traveller universe hasn't crumbled, or even notably changed because 
of these introductions.  All you need to say is that most folks on 
most worlds aren't into this stuff.  A good reason for this
conservatism would be Vilani influence on many worlds.

Nanotech is also possible to introduce, but you are risking major changes 
if it is anything other than TL 21 Ancient tech.  

As Chris says, as long as we keep antigrav, jumpdrive, no FTL comm, the 
same aliens and the same history we've got the same Imperium.  As i said 
before, the best way to keep all ships from being automated in the 
Imperium is to make a law against it.

For examples of how two very Imperium-like universes can work with all the
90s ideas about tech introduced check out Eluki bes Shahar's Hellflower
trilogy and Dave Trowbridge and Sherwood Smith's Exordium series. You have
nobles, jump drives a space opera feel + computer jacks and bioengineering.

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:21:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID - too much stuff

On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 ringrose@ascent.com wrote:
 
> Similarly, do you want to put your Imp ID into a bank machine you
> don't necessarily trust?  What if it (a) eats the card (b) takes out
> all your money without mentioning it (c) copies every bit of
> information out of your ID so someone else can make a fake?

yeah, like those enterprising young criminals who put a fake bank machine
in a busy mall back East last year. If you actually tried to do anything,
it told you it was out of cash, or that your bank wasn't talking to
it temporarily, but they collected hundreds of bank account numbers 
complete with PIN numbers. Something messed up, but they did get something
like a couple of hundred grand before they were caught, and if the scam
hadn't been interrupted, they would have gotten away with it.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:22:51 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)

May I suggest an addition to Section II, Canonicity?

Piracy 

pi++ Piracy exists and is rampant throughout known space.  Any armed ship may
commit
     piracy, provided they do not get caught.  Only pirates who are caught in
the act 
     have to fear capture or trial.  Ship tracking and identification processes
are not         common.

pi+  Piracy exists.  Anti-piracy measures are politically or economically
driven, and may 	     not be adequate.  Technology exists that alters
transponder signals and other unique       signatures such that a shielded ship
may not be readily identifiable.

pi   Piracy can only exist where an organized government is not, or when
supported by
     either corporate or government resources.

pi-  Piracy exists only at the pleasure of the gamemaster, it should not be
possible.

pi-- Piracy cannot exist, pirates are exterminated in short order.


This is another major bone of contention that will never be 'canon'-ized to
everyone's satisfaction.
- -- 
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:35:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #309

On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Greg Smith wrote:

> > 
> > In the NZ Army our NCO ranks how they're addressed goes something like 
> > this:
> >
> > Staff Sergeant  "Staff" calling them "Sergeant" is very, very stupid.
> > 
> 
> Calling a USMC Staff Sergeant "Staff" was very stupid.  This is a kind
> of sexually transmitted disease....  staph....

Well, actually, no staph isn't a sexually transmitted disease. Staph (aka
Staphylococcus aureus, an extremely common bacterium that usually lives on
your skin with no problems) infections are common, usually in the form of
sore throats, minor skin infections, and post surgical nosocomial
infections, although a variant form of the Staph bacterium is the infamous
flesh-eating bacterium. 

<Groan-shudder> Oooohh flesh-eating bacterium and sexually transmitted are
NOT two concepts that should be in the same sentence!!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

> 
> Greg
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:42:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Noncanon (Encore!)

On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, james a clem wrote:

> Alright!  A subject with some merit.  I'm presently designing a special
> ship for my campaign, the Diasporan Systems, Inc. StarBrick drop box. 
> Used by the Human Unity (one of the nasties in the campaign)  this
> HEAVILY ARMORED 5000 dTon streamlined box is used for insertion of Unity
> marines directly into combat situations.  It is carried by large troop
> transports and dropped from low orbit right on top of enemy positions. 
> No Starship Troopers though, you can expect any planetary defenses to be
> getting hammer......er.......suppressed  while this is going on!!!  While
> this vehicle is TL 17 (!!!) it still uses HePlaR drives for landing,
> primarily for their shock and damage value.  Now, fusion guns.  I'm
> designing these from FF&S2, and dont have those stats yet, but on each
> corner of the hull, as well as on the dorsal and ventral surfaces, are
> large turrets for fusion guns.

Check out my TL-12 version of Puff at:

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/CSC_Designs/Orbital_gunshipTL12.html

6 heavy plasma cannons. Reach out and Torch someone ;-)

Designed with Rob Prior's magnificent Infini-V program for doing CSC
ships.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:58:47 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System.

> From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
 
> There is no such thing as a fixed game system.
> Hero, SuperWorld, Space Opera, and so on.  Only Traveller and Runequest
> have supported games that ran for more than a year.
> 
> I keep returning to Traveller, and Runequest for the backgrounds and for
> certain parts of the rule systems.  I am slowly working towards my own set

> most of the rules.  It is background that saves me time, and Traveller and
> RQ have the best backgrounds out there.  In general, once you strip away
> the foolish rules, the rest of it makes a lot of sense.

I agree completely.  For me as a referee, consistent and diverse
background information is much more important than the rules system. 
Not only does background save me time, but it makes a better experience
for my players than if I have to create everything myself.  Although I
think I'm a pretty imaginative and creative referee, there is still the
danger that situations will start to resemble each other.  If other
people have designed some or most of the situations -- whether they be
worlds, organizations, vehicles, whatever -- the campaign will have more
of the flavor of real life's diversity, because those other designers
will have approached problems differently than I do.  

The foregoing, of course, is what works for my games, in which most of
the action revolves around the characters solving intellectual and moral
problems, rather than trying to accomplish specific, rollable tasks.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:05:25 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: munchkin tech

>Nope. Like I said, BattleTech does well.

   FASA basically abandoned it's orginal players and took a sharp turn down
the road to munchkinism with the introduction of the Clans and their
munchkintech.

   I've been playing Battletech for over a decade.  I have not bought
anything from FASA for over half that time.  The binding on my 3025 mech
book is on life support.  Time to pull the plug, and transfer the pages to
a binder.

   Traveller, on the other hand has retained it's orginal flavor (at least
for me.)  Currently I'm using TNE rules in a CT setting.  I added in
Thruster Plates and Grav Drive.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:30:42 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Free Traders and Trade Stations

> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
> > > My personal opinion is that the Free Traders that have local agents on
> > > retainer along their trade routes are the solvent ones.
> > What about Tramp Free Traders?
> We prefer the term polyamorphous Free Traders. Our local "agents" are
> unpaid.

Fine, whatever bloody PC term you want to call them.  What about them?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:48:48 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #318

> >CT was the FIRST Space based role playing game (of any major consequence)
> >and the best!
> >It still is the best. You would have had to been there in the "old days".
> >CT ruled!
> *sigh*  Time to start building the Home for Old Traveller Fogies.. "why,
> when I was your age, we didn't have all this FFS to mess with.. we used
> generic rifles and we LIKED it!  Damn kids...mutter, mutter.. where's me
> Old Drug?"
> | Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |

Hey could we talk about how the kids today do not understand how hard it
was to create a character with the basic table?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:20:33 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID - too much stuff

> yeah, like those enterprising young criminals who put a fake bank machine
> in a busy mall back East last year. If you actually tried to do anything,
> it told you it was out of cash, or that your bank wasn't talking to
> it temporarily, but they collected hundreds of bank account numbers 
> complete with PIN numbers. Something messed up, but they did get something
> like a couple of hundred grand before they were caught, and if the scam
> hadn't been interrupted, they would have gotten away with it.

I thought this was hysterical.  They got something like $60,000 (not as
much as you would expect, I guess).  They didn't get caught, but their plot
was discovered...

They may have been caught since then, but at the time they had gotten away
clean and the police said that they didn't have anything to go on.

Brilliant if you ask me :^)

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:39:59 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: G:T (or GURPS: Traveller or T5 or...)

Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:10:49 -0600, "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>

>Okay, gang, I've seen alot of dissing (i.e "complaining" for those outside the
>U.S.) of GURPS in general on the TML. Unfortunately, you all did it *after*
>I dropped about $100US for some of the various books in preparation for
>GURPS: Traveller.  Since I'm finding some nice things in them, I'd greatly
>appreciate _details_ about why some of you don't like the GURPS rules.
>I have absolutely _no_ experience with them. I'd ask on the GURPS
>mail group but everyone there *likes* GURPS.

Note: you would have seen such comments regardless of the game.
Every game has its detractors, if only because every game can't
support every possible gaming philosphy, and the comments about
GURPS only show prove that it isn't some perfect nirvana of
gaming...

I have been running GURPS Traveller before it was even announced
and it does, in fact, work very well.  If you have questions feel
free to e-mail me.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:58:10 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:42:07 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>

>> Well, the arguements that say they should exist also say they
>> shouldn't be that expesive.  Also, who says they have to
>> be retrofited?  The PCs just get them with the ship.

>Okay, let's dip into real life her for a moment.  By your argument, every
>factory in the United States is completely automated.

I don't see this at all.  Factories are automated to the degree
that our automation technology allows.  The idea that automation
technology in Traveller is insufficient to allow automatic ships
is one that I would endorse.  To the degree that it is sufficient
to allow full automation, it doesn't fit with your analogy.  If
you are invoking that it is simply too expensive to automate
ships, that is simply another form of saying it is impracticle
to do it and is effectively in the "it's not possible" catagory.

Now, the arguement for automation of ships has been that it
is already possible to automate the tasks that a human would
be expected to do on a ship.  That say it will be cheap at
the TL's where you can build starships.  If you want to
say that this isn't true, and invoke higher cost, why stop
at a cost that means it will happen and you have to work
to make sure it only happens in places that don't affect
PCs (which, as I have stated, I'm not sure exist) when
the same reasoning can leave you fully compatible with
the current background by just making it too expensive
for any use?

>Working passage is something that I could never rectify in my own mind.
>You've got this huge cargo ship with tons of goods that a megacorp is
>making a sickening profit off of, and they'll take Joe Schmoe, Free Trader,
>on for a working passage without the ability to make a background check
>(due to the Canon concept of extremely slow communications)?

You really aren't going to be able to do complete background checks
in hiring (unless you wait months for the replies) since you
aren't going to be able to get data from off planet.  Unless
you plan to have replacement workers just sitting around
in case you have vacancies, you use an interview and what
data you can get locally.

>If background gets broken, I will honestly shed no tears.

I think this is where we truly disagree.  That and the fact that
I don't wan't to automate PC tasks for roleplaying reasons.

>> I don't call automatic ships "tweaking".  It fundamentally alters
>> the need to for just the kind of skills a PC is likely to
>> have and the class of people they are going to interact with.

>Yes.  Mass-produced automated ships with a very specific function is
>tweaking.

I suppose if you handwave the automatic ships into carefully
constrained sitatuions, you can reduce it to "tweaking".  But
if you are going to do that much handwaving, why not just
handwave them away completely and save the contrive feel of
the ships only existing in certain roles.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:36:26 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: citizenship and travel documentation in the Imperium (was:  Imperial ID)

> From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>

> I also have made that change that only a small fraction of people are
> citizens - I am currently trying to find a way to get roughly 1-5% of the
> people citizenship.  right now, I am using nobles and honorably discharged
> veterans in Imperial service, plus those members of planetary armed forces
> who received Imperial training and took an Imperial oath.
> 
> All Imperial citizens have such an ID, while all Planetary citizens may
> apply for one for travel purposes.

I handle it differently.  Each member state of the Imperium is a
sovereign entity.  Its sovereignty is complete except where preempted by
Imperial edict -- for example, foreign policy and slavery.  In general,
member states may restrict immigration and emigration as they see fit.  

Sophonts are citizens of their member state first, and of the Imperium
second.  Every sophont must be a citizen of a member state.  All
sophonts who fit the statutory definition of Imperial citizen are
Imperial citizens.  That's a little tautological, so let me give an
example.  

My Imperial citizenship edict confers Imperial citizenry on, inter alia,
any sophont  
(1) who came into existence on an Imperial member state, on a starship
in jump space between Imperial member states, or on any facility of the
Imperium or a member state located within or without the Imperium; and 
(2) at least half of whose parents (as defined broadly to take into
account differences in reproductive biology) were then Imperial
citizens.  (I have not included the naturalization provisions of the
edict.)

Thus the child of a human Zhodani soldier and an Emerald farmer -- let's
call him Gani -- is an Imperial citizen. On the other hand, the child
born to the Zhodani Cultural Attache at Regina and her spouse would not
be an Imperial citizen.    

Let's assume that Gani also falls into Emerald's definition of citizen. 
He would be issued an Emerald passport as a matter of course, and would
use that to visit Jewell, Ruby, and other Imperial worlds.  Because of
the treaty relationship among worlds in the Jewell cluster, he doesn't
need a visa.  To visit the Zhodani side of the family, however, Gani
will have to obtain an Imperial passport, an Imperial exit visa, and a
Zhodani entrance visa.  

Members of the various Imperial services don't have to deal much with
local immigration controls; every member state has signed a treaty with
the Imperium under which it agreed to allow the bearer of a valid
Imperial Government ID to enter and leave the member state on Imperial
business as needed by the Imperium.  

Most member states issue special visas to merchant crews without regard
to the crew member's state of origin.  A typical approach is for the
member state to issue a visa to "the crew of the Free Trader Beowulf,
Imperial Registry No. XYX100100."  Anyone with a crew member's ID is
covered by the visa.  Usually, the immigration control checkpoints at
the starport will have a list of all ships which have received visas,
and the crew members crossing the extrality line just have to have their
crew IDs scanned into the system.  

Nobles don't get special treatment (except possibly expedited
applications).  Each is a citizen of a member state and the Imperium,
and would hold passports from both.  Their fiefs are granted from real
estate owned directly by the Imperium, and don't issue passports to the
nobles.  A fief might issue travel documents -- passports and visas --
if the noble controlling it saw the need.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 98 00:19 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: (un)canon Kinunir

Hy folks,

	just a side step from the Gurps fire I've ignited ;-)

	several people mention that the Kinunir is uncanon. I've started
	with MT and german CT, where only the scenarios and traders&gunboats
	available from FanPro the time MT came out.

	The referencs of uncanon Kinunir sounds as if the german translation
	was better than the origial :

	" R: Ein Subsectorbeamter (...) erklaert grossmaeulig, das die
	Streitkraefte des Subsectors vier Schiffe der Kinunir-Klasse im
	Dienst haben (...), [ ... ] "

	I allways read this " grossmaeulig " as a hint that he is a drunken
	greenhorn, who is claiming that those nice little black globed ships
	are able to secure the !complete! empire. Anybody should recocknise
	that this man is a !complete! greenhorn concerned military and
	spacenaval operations. Perhaps he has even never seen a starport
	yet ?  You know those guys from the mountains telling you
	everything about sailing ships, what they've learned the pirate
	films they've seen.

	Babelfish tells loudmouthed for grossmaeulig, what was in the original?

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:09:22 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: The Marc W. Millar Clinic

>Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:39:12 -0800
>From: dberry@hooked.net
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #318

>At 10:49 PM 3/26/98 -0500, you wrote:

>>CT was the FIRST Space based role playing game (of any major consequence)
>>and the best!

>>It still is the best. You would have had to been there in the "old days".
>>CT ruled!

>*sigh*  Time to start building the Home for Old Traveller Fogies.. "why,
>when I was your age, we didn't have all this FFS to mess with.. we used
>generic rifles and we LIKED it!  Damn kids...mutter, mutter.. where's me
>Old Drug?"

Yes I can see it now, the residents/inmates denied anything sharper than
a plasitc butter knife due to an unfortunate incident involving an argument
over the merits of the half die several years ago.

<Cue year 2035>
<scene: Some midly well known SF actor (from Star Trek - really the final
series honest) walking in front of a large gothic building)

"This week is the annual appeal for the sufferer of "Traveller Overuse
Stress Syndrome" or TOSS. This tragic condition leaves its sufferers unable
to tell the difference between a SF roleplaying game and reality. This
condition was first diagonsed after the tragic panel debate at the First
Traveller Convention in 2001 on "Robots in the 3rd Imperium" which resulted
in 17 fatalities. As yet no effective treatment has been found for those
afflicted by this debilitating condition. Yet here at the Marc W. Millar
Clinic, a team of world renouned doctors and scientist are dedicated to a
seach for a cure, whilst treating this diseases many victims.

<cut to scenes of druged TML members in bed listening to elevator musak>

At the Marc Millar Clinic, the patients are treated with the latest technics
and medications. It costs $5000 a day for the drugs the doctors need, another
$10,000 for those required by the patients. Currently five strains of TOSS
have been identified and it has been found that the sufferers of the
differing strains need to be housed in seperate wards, as it appears that
the interaction of the different strains leads to homicidial behavour in
those afflicted.

<cut to scenes of two TML members laying in pools of blood>

So when the collector calls please give genourously and help put an end to
this tragic affliction.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
"Avec vous votra limpet mine?"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:28:00 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

> I don't see this at all.  Factories are automated to the degree
> that our automation technology allows.  The idea that automation
> technology in Traveller is insufficient to allow automatic ships
> is one that I would endorse.  To the degree that it is sufficient
> to allow full automation, it doesn't fit with your analogy.  If
> you are invoking that it is simply too expensive to automate
> ships, that is simply another form of saying it is impracticle
> to do it and is effectively in the "it's not possible" catagory.

No.  Factories are not automated to the degree that our automation
technology allows.  If that were true, there'd be far more automated.  They
are automated to the degree that automation is cost effective.

> Now, the arguement for automation of ships has been that it
> is already possible to automate the tasks that a human would
> be expected to do on a ship.  That say it will be cheap at
> the TL's where you can build starships.  If you want to
> say that this isn't true, and invoke higher cost, why stop
> at a cost that means it will happen and you have to work
> to make sure it only happens in places that don't affect
> PCs (which, as I have stated, I'm not sure exist) when
> the same reasoning can leave you fully compatible with
> the current background by just making it too expensive
> for any use?

Well fine.  This argument is tiresome.  Automation is completely impossible
in Traveller.  Sci-fi staples such as robots cannot exist.  If they did,
then there'd be nothing for PCs to do forever.  Traveller is the 19th
Century in space, despite the vast advances in technology and the
interesting possibilities that are opened by said technologies.

> You really aren't going to be able to do complete background checks
> in hiring (unless you wait months for the replies) since you
> aren't going to be able to get data from off planet.  Unless
> you plan to have replacement workers just sitting around
> in case you have vacancies, you use an interview and what
> data you can get locally.

Okay, that's your way of seeing it.  Then in that case, the Megacorps are
entirely stupid and would never have gotten to the size that they've gotten
if every Tom, Dick and Harry with Pilot or Astrogation-1 can manage to get
a working passage on their massive cash-cow cargo ships.  Megacorps should
now be declared non-canon because they would never be able to survive being
that stupid.

> I think this is where we truly disagree.  That and the fact that
> I don't wan't to automate PC tasks for roleplaying reasons.

You're absolutely right.  Don't automate PC tasks.  Since you don't want to
automate PC tasks, you can't automate any tasks.  No robots.  No automated
factories.  No smart missiles.  No powerful computers (they would lead to
automation).  In fact, no sci-fi at all.  In fact, set the entire backdrop
to the TL of the early industrial revolution...  no, wait, the whole point
of the industrial revolution was to automate the manufacture of products...
 Can't have that.  No jump drives, no lasers, no plasma guns, no battle
dress, no contra-grav, nothing.

> I suppose if you handwave the automatic ships into carefully
> constrained sitatuions, you can reduce it to "tweaking".  But
> if you are going to do that much handwaving, why not just
> handwave them away completely and save the contrive feel of
> the ships only existing in certain roles.

As I said, I'm finished with this argument.  No automation can be allowed
in the Imperium, or the game is at risk. With no automation, all of the
background and canon that has been built over the course of 20+ years
cannot happen...  This makes the whole premise that the history of the
future has been built on absolutely absurd and ludicrous.  Kind of a catch
22.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:47:02 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

Ok, let's address some of this :

> Cyber/Bioware : Is in Traveller, as one of the things that the Solomani did
> in the Good Old Days. Big social pressures against it. Imperium isnt that
> good at it - call it down 2 TLs. Having cyberwear in you can get you
> declared a machine, with associated loss of sentience rights, let alone
> Imperial Citizenship. The alternate view is to assume that skills, stat
> bonuses etc gained in charGen is from cyberwear etc - "Of course I'm a
> qualified Pilot. The Scout Service inserted the chip when I signed up, back
> in '22".


Granted, you make a good point here, but on the other hand, this can
lead to interesting scenarios;  Characters with cyberware would be
naturally 'outlawed' like psionics and black glode screens.  Sure you
could have them, but the Imperial forces would be after you all the
time.  Could add a lot of adventure to those "slow periods" in a
campaign.

> Nanomachines : These are one of those things that you cant have a little
> bit of. They will be a truly revolutionary technology, in a way jump drives
> et al arent. Jump drives just do to space what the sail did for the sea.
> Nanofabrication units will revolutionise everything.
> 


Yes they would.  Unless, because of the horrid military application of
them, that they also are generally outlawed in the Imperium.  The stigma
of using them could be equivelant to say, someone re-creating the 'black
plague'.  Certainly such things would be shunned in general as too
dangerous, because you could easily use nanomachines to commit
genocide.  Just program the little buggers to be airborne and attack
just a specific genetic code.  Again, people using this technology would
be outlaws, and in fact I would think because of the seriousness of THIS
offense, Imperial punishment would be 'Death'.  Again, opens up some
interesing role-playing possibilities.


> AI : Is in Traveller, but either at TL17 or TL12, depending on your
> particular view on Virus. Interesting, limitable to certain extent by
> price, but fundamentally, the question you have good robots is "why do they
> pay a human to do this when a machine does it better and cheaper ?".


As to AI, I would put this at Tech level 17 or above; for actual
functional AI that is.  You could have rudimentary AI at tech level 15,
but subject to glitches and potentially dangerous and not really worth
the price.  Since the Imperium never really made it past Tech level 15
before the Rebellion/Virus times, I see this as a workable solution.

> Fusion : Once you have free power, manufacturing falls in cost to near
> nothing. We sidestepped this one in Traveller by pretending it doesnt.


Fusion is not the 'cure-all' that many think it is.  When you factor in
all the costs and difficulties of running a fusion generator, you'll
realize it isn't the "golden horn of plenty" that older science-fiction
writers made it out to be.  When *WE* achieve fusion power, it will not
serve all our energy needs as has been predicted;  fusion energy alone
is not enough.  It will have to be used with other sources.  In the
Traveller Imperium, I don't see it as the 'god-like' energy source
either, but just more efficient then most other forms of energy.

Another source of power that is non-canon (as far as I know) is using a
singularity for a power source.  Just toss some matter into it and
collect the energy burst.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #326
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 327



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Confessions of a CT junkie.
Re: Automation: Request for Brainstorm
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Re: An idea...
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Sunjamming?
Re: Assorted
Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)
Re: Traveller: CCG [Was Re: <Sigh>]
Re: Traveller: CCG [Was Re: <Sigh>]
OK, here goes nuttin
Slight corrections
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #322
Re: An idea...
Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:01:57 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Confessions of a CT junkie.

At 09:09 PM 3/26/98 -0500, "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> wrote:
>From: dberry@hooked.net <dberry@hooked.net>
>>I am a CT junkie, unashamed and proud.  I love the setting above all
>>others, and have very fond memories of playing the early adventures with
>>Craig.
...
>Another thing that bothers me is the quoting of formulae to prove a point;
>WHO CARES, its just a game for goodness sake.  So what if the physics are
>slightly wrong, ask yourself was it fun for the players and Game Master and
>if it was nuff said.

I care.  My three players care.  If the physics or the economics are
obviously, blatantly wrong, then they want to play in a different
background.  One that is not from the same company.

Let me a bit clearer, for the benefit of the authors in the audience, some
of whom get it right, and some of whom get it drastically wrong.

Traveller economics as written means that a star passage is the equivalent
of roughly $50K round trip.  This is not something the average person does,
and is in fact roughly what Astor paid (in present day dollars) for his
first class ticket on Titanic for six people.  I either ignore this,
causing my players to wonder why any space traveller is poor, given the
immense, incredible, unbelievable, astronomical value of the ship they are
in, or I revalue tickets and shipping costs.  I have vacillated on this for
much of a year.

Traveller physics states that I can make a near C rock that would pulverize
any fixed target you care to name.  No planet is defensible if you have
even 2000 stellar diameters to work in.  I solved this by fiat - you just
can't.  Drives only alter the kinetic energy according to the energy put
in, and thus are limited to a maximum speed.  Eris' stutterwarp drive would
also work very well, and i may just lift it wholesale, as requiring fewer
changes.  I do not want to debate the merits of near c rocks, just point
out that the existence of this bit of bad physics makes anyone with any
background a bit unhappy - they know the consequences.


Both of these problems can be fixed by a number of different means, but
ignoring them means that my players have to guess at what will not work.
For example, nobody was willing to accept the Meson gun in the game, until
I noticed that all canonical sources capitalize the word Meson.  I could
state that it was clearly derived from a name.  Enter Robert T. Meson,
inventor of a particle that decays after a known, exact interval, and that
interacts with none of the four forces.  So, the physicist now knows that a
Meson screen is not something used to stop neutrinos, which a meson screen
as listed in classic traveller seems like it should do, given that both are
(IIRC) affected by the weak force.

Does this  matter in your game?  Damfino, but it does make a difference in
mine when someone gets a chunk of these bits of reality blatantly,
completely, and unreservedly wrong, and my players get clever.

PE gets a lot of things right, but it implies a universe where bigger
population is better.  Previous sources have also done so, but if this is
the case, one has to ask why worlds stay as small as they did over the life
of the Imperium.  A possible fix is to factor down the free spending cash
of any world of pop 9 or A, as Hans has done.  I do not know if I am
willing to do that, but it makes a big difference, so I just might.
Personally, I blame the algorithm, which is suited well to an area of space
that has been recently colonized.

Early Imperial history implies a suicidal expansion policy, and fleet that
are wasting their time to far away from the worlds that matter.  I cannot
imagine a cargo that is worth carrying to Lishun in the early years, yet
the Navy and the merchants are (theoretically) there.  This one I changed
without fear.

Now, how canonical is this?  In general, not bad up until I start fiddling
with worlds and future expansion history.  That is why I have not yet
completely redone the campaign universe - I am not convinced I want to lose
all of that.


>
>I have introduced a high level of cloning and pure genetic breeding.  I
>extract data from my wife about some of the work that she's doing and stuff
>that she has just read about (she's a molecular biologist) and try to
>incorporate into my worlds 4000 years in the future.  That ought to scare
>some of the purists to death.
>
>Computers are my background and I HAVE made changes to the computer stuff in
>Traveller to account for (I would think) a large change in technology from
>out TL 7/8 to the TL 15/16 computer. Same goes for power.  I'm sure by TL
>11/12/13 that you would be able to power a very powerful laser pistol with
>what would be the equivalent of a watch battery today.  I mean think about
>for a minute and I believe that you too would have some problems with
>"Canon" on a few things.  The first thing I read in the LBB's was "these
>books are to guide you" or something like that.
>
>I'm done.....
>
>Thom
> 

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:48:47 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Automation: Request for Brainstorm

At 03:38 PM 3/25/98 -0500, Rob Eagelston wrote:
>Request for Brainstorm
>
>I need brainstorm ideas as to why ships _need_ a crew
>for such things as piloting, astrogation, sensors,
>comms, and engineering.

Simply put - humans are more flexible than machines in the Traveller
universe.  You can argue this till you are blue in the face, but
eventually, all game systems need to come to one of three decisions:

1.  Humans are just plain better.  Robots do not take over anytime soon,
but humans may use hand comps to do grunt work.  You will never see an
automatic security system that is anything more than an enabler for an ever
smaller group of guards, but a good system allows one guard to do what used
to take dozens, as long as the invader has not spoofed it.

This describes Traveller TL0-12, and effectively through about 15.  From 12
to 15, robots can do ever more, and can be cost effective at their jobs,
but it is very rare to see a robot doing anything that requires an actual
decision, as opposed to carrying out a task.  Note, though, that anything
which is extremely repetitive will be roboticised by TL 12, simply because
it gets pretty cheap to build low skill, high repeatability machines.

2.  Humans can be augmented.  This is my Traveller universe from TL 13 to
about 18, in that people start getting bits added on.  For example, many
people with poor eyesight have genetic surgery in the womb at TL 15 to get
the defects corrected, but if the eyes are hurt, they will get either a
prosthetic or a cloned part.  By 15, implants are going to be better than
factory new equipment for most things.

3.  Robots are better, as they can be purpose built, if cost is not an
object.  This is the world of Ian Banks, as I understand it.  The AIs that
run things are vastly bigger and smarter than the humans involved.  This is
my Traveller universe from TL 18 and up.  By 17, they become AIs, and by
19, they can produce artificial Psionics.

(That which is unique about life is Psionic in nature, IMTU, following the
Penrose theory about intelligence being not fundamentally understood due to
an intrinsic unknowability.  For lack of a better term, call it a soul, or
a quantum observer effect.)

Given that most Traveller universes are very automated and roboticized, but
that humans are still in the loop, just what do the people do?  I generally
have automation make most easy stuff trivial and cheap, which is why
everyone is dressed in glowing silver suits.  Miles of artificial spider
silk cloth in one color is basically free, but the clever patterns that set
the good stuff apart costs, because it requires creativity.

IMTU, as the list has discussed over the previous days, real space and jump
space both use drive units that require constant work.  In real space, the
thruster plate drive need exacting local observations, constant adjustments
to drive fields, and careful plans to bring the ship to the jump point.
Some of this could be automated, but surprises happen, and humans are just
better at dealing with the surprises.

In jump space, the jump field ripples, bulges, and flickers constantly.  A
good navigator, pilot, and engineer can compensate for this, but need to
work at it constantly.

Good computer equipment helps.  By TL 15, you can run a ship comfortably
with just three well trained people - one per shift.  Without that
automation, your life gets very difficult, as you are always on call, and
never get to finish anything.  (The workload is not high, but it is
constant.)  As a result, you do not need many people at high tech levels,
since the computers handle the easy things.  At lower levels, it is a
constant workload for a lot of people, simply because automatic responses
are not sufficient.

>Oh boy, when it rains, it pours.  Just today two players
>confronted me over starship automation, starting with the

>Xboat automation question and moving to "normal" ship
>automation.

If you do not have a very, very expensive machine running the system and
maintaining it constantly, you cannot get a reliable unmanned ship.  Even
with such machinery, a ship with a human on board is vastly more likely to
get to the destination than one without.  (This results from the Psionic
component of jump space - having the engineer fiddle with the drive makes
it fail less often.  A race does not need any other form of Psi to make
this work, and there is little connection between the Psi talent that makes
this work and the talent that makes other talents work.)

For cost reasons, people are not eager to put the very expensive machines
in.  They are willing to do so to reduce crew counts on merchant ships, but
not to eliminate it completely.  FWIW, once one hits TL 21 or so,
teleportation starts to replace jump drive over interstellar distances, but
this requires the development of Psionic AI machines.)

>Even today ships can be fully automated, and often the
>crew just sit and scratch themselves while the computers
>do all the work.

Were the drive system completely understood, which happens in Traveller at
TL 19 or so, the Traveller ships would be too.  Of course, by that time,
the "human" who is running the system is artificial, and may in fact be
entirely in jump space.

In summary, this explains a couple of interesting details about Traveller:

1.  Why are all the ancient races listed Psionic?

2.  Why are space pilots as superstitious as old uneducated sailors?

3.  Why do star crews get paid so much?

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:04:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, David P. Summers wrote:
> Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:42:07 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
> 
> >> Well, the arguements that say they should exist also say they
> >> shouldn't be that expesive.  Also, who says they have to
> >> be retrofited?  The PCs just get them with the ship.
> 
> >Okay, let's dip into real life her for a moment.  By your argument, every
> >factory in the United States is completely automated.
> 
> I don't see this at all.  Factories are automated to the degree
> that our automation technology allows.  The idea that automation
> technology in Traveller is insufficient to allow automatic ships
> is one that I would endorse.  To the degree that it is sufficient
> to allow full automation, it doesn't fit with your analogy.  If
> you are invoking that it is simply too expensive to automate
> ships, that is simply another form of saying it is impracticle
> to do it and is effectively in the "it's not possible" catagory.

Factories are automated to the level that profit is maximized.
Different factories are automated to different levels depending
on a number of factors including the resources of the company
building the plant at the time, the regulatory environment, the
availability of competing methods of production (ie labor costs
at the time), etc...  The capabilities of the technology are
only one small part of the whole equation.  Most of our "in
service" technology is well below what is the most advanced
possible for a number of reasons, reliability and custom being
two big ones.

If there are enough people out there who want to go to space
that it's cheap to find pilots and the like, then it would make
sense to use them over automation if the cost is high.

Perhaps the Imperium has a constant labor surplus for some reason
and so jobs that people want are still not automated.  This labor
surplus could be explained by automation of many mundane tasks,
like sweeping floors, doing laundry, construction, etc...

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:14:22 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: An idea...

> I was thinking about a Traveller desktop themeset for Windows 95 (or
> Mac...). You know, there are tons of these things out on the net for
> movies/tv shows/people...why not Traveller? It could be a clever marketing
> toy for IG or SJG...icons and a background. Of course, there are no "real"
> Traveller sounds, but hey...the graphics could be cool.
> 


Say, that's a cool idea.  I'd put one of those on my desktop.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:14:21 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

Hmmm...interesting points.

Let me start by saying that I have automated some functions in starships in the
past, and have since backed away from that.  I did a lot of thinking about this
during the discussions about starports last year.  I strongly feel that
starships coming into Class A or B starports, be it the highport or the lowport,
are going to turn control over to the starport computers for the approach and
landing.  A pilot will be there for override, but the starport computers will
have final say on the docking/landing.

Furthermore, I have always felt that certain piloting tasks were automated. 
Landing at the starport beacon (Class c, d and e) is easily accomplished. 
Establishing a standard orbit.  Breaking orbit and proceding to the jump point. 
Liftoff from a starport, etc...  These are all pre-programmed into the Nav
computer and require only authorization to execute.  And programs like
Manuever/Evade, Evade, etc... imply a great deal of computer assistance to the
pilot.

However, while I feel that the tasks of a pilot can be duplicated to a certain
extent, there are some very serious problems that also arise.  The existance of
'slave circuits' (what the starport uses to control the ship during final
approach) also imply the existance of direct control over the ship.  Something
that can be utilized by (ahem) darker elements of society (notice I'm not using
the 'P' word!!  :)  IMTU, the slave circuit has a multitude of control codes
that must be matched in order for external control.  The starport, on achieving
a secure comm link, will instruct the pilot to set the slave code to a specific
setting, then take control.  Part of the shutdown checklist is to both reset the
code and deactivate the circuit.  There is no 'override' available, even to the
Imperial military.  (And yes, if you don't have the circuit, or you don't give
control over, you are restricted to a parking orbit and must use commercial
shuttles to get to the starport.)

So, while a pilot can tell someone attempting to control the ship improperly to
'get stuffed', use of a fully automated system can be overcome.  I'm sure you
can specify all sorts of security on the pilot-bot, but if even one route is
allowed to accomodate emergency reprogramming of the pilot-bot because it has
become deranged, then the door is open for multi-million credit ships to be
hijacked remotely, or reprogrammed to do 'bad' things (ref. VIRUS!!!).

Ultimately, matters having to do with the life and death of sophonts, must be
decided by sophonts.  To that end, even tho' ship's weaponry is automated to a
great extent (as demonstrated by the Gunner-x series of programs), the turrets
are designed with the idea that a sophont will sit there and pull the trigger.

That philosophy of thought, IMHO, is reflected throughout the Imperium. 
Automation is available as a backup, but sophonts make the decisions.

With regard to working passage - I don't think that anyone expects that top of
the line, megacorporation ships.  This applies more to the fringe, free traders.

douglas

- -- 
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 02:30:21 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Sunjamming?

Florian Merx asks Freelance Traveller...

>I spent my weekend designing StarSystems and kinda got hooked on the
>idea of Sunjamming - you know, sun sails as a means of transportation
>between a TL8 World (pop3) and its moon (pop8). The distance between the
>two is only a few hundred thousand klicks, so it could be viable means
>of transportation. If not, well, this SF afer all, isn`t it?

>Anyway, I remember having seen an article about sun sails in Challenge.
>Do you happen to know which one?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
freetrav@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 02:29:27 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Assorted

> >* Marinus van der Lubbe
> 
> A German anarchist, framed by the Nazi party for bombing the Reichstag, and
> mentioned as part of a gag in a Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers comic of the
> 70s.
Dutch, actually.

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 03:00:22 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Game System (Longish response)

> Which ones were the members of DGP listed in the credits?  I'm kind of
> confused on this.
> Joe D. Fugate Sr.
> Gary L. Thomas
These twp. They were the driving force behind DGP...
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 03:08:12 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller: CCG [Was Re: <Sigh>]

> No way!  INWO:CCG:The Traveller Setting!  This would be great.  At least from this
> INWO: CCG fan.
And another one here.
> 
> Loren, get the card game guys going on this, please!
> 
> Factions could be each race: Solomani, Vilani, Zhodani, Aslan, Vargyr, K'Kree,
> Hivers, Droyne, etc.
> 
> Effect cards like: Vargyr Corsair Raid, MisJump! Zhodani Infiltrator.
Wow, playing Traveller with INWO: Coolness.
I see it before me:
Nope, my Strephon isnt dead, because i clone him, but now i play at Shuttle Crash on
your Dulinor, followed up by a narrow escape on my Varian, before your Lucan can
Assassinate him.
This is a game i would just love! Greed shining in my eyes!
(sigh...still waiting for Subgenius to hit the stores..)

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 03:04:05 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller: CCG [Was Re: <Sigh>]

Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
> Harold D. Hale wrote:
> 
> >    FYI: Does the phrase Magic: Traveller mean anything to anyone? <shudder>
> 
> No way!  INWO:CCG:The Traveller Setting!  This would be great.  At least from this
> INWO: CCG fan.
> 
> Loren, get the card game guys going on this, please!
> 
> Factions could be each race: Solomani, Vilani, Zhodani, Aslan, Vargyr, K'Kree,
> Hivers, Droyne, etc.
> 
> Effect cards like: Vargyr Corsair Raid, MisJump! Zhodani Infiltrator.
> 
> All kinds of Artifact cards both high and low TLs.
> 
> You could have game mechanics like Low Berth (where you would keep cards in
> reserve until needed), Green Zones (no cost to playing a card there), Amber Zones
> (some cost to play a card in that area), Red Zone (no way to play a card there
> without a special empowerment).  This Zone idea might work for drawing cards, too.
> 
> I'd buy it Loren!  (Assuming you wouldn't let me help create it ;-)  I think a lot
> of other people would too.
> 
> Bloo

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:29:40 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: OK, here goes nuttin

Perhaps it is time I started feeding bits of the stuff to the list for
appraisal. The various HTML-like codes are the codes for the SJG typesetter,
not an HTML coding, and I am too lazy to remove them. Note that like much of
the book, this is not a rule, but an explanation of why things are the way
they are.

I plan to put the discussion of the rules mechanics before the GURPS list, and
the background discussion in both places. 

"Lay on, MacDuff!"
         -- Some guy in a play about Scotsmen, with some really neat witches
and a lot of cool swordfights. 

**********************

The following material is from the upcoming GURPS Traveller book, and is
copyright 1998 Steve Jackson Games, Inc. All rights resrved.

"< Begin sidebar>

Nanotechnology

Physicist Richard Feynman first suggested the notion of atom-by-atom
manipulation of matter in the late 1960s, but it was not until the 1981 book
The Engines of Creation that author K. Eric Drexler gave the notion a name and
outlined the possibilities. This is not the place to go into a complete essay
on the subject, but it is the place to explain why Traveller does not directly
incorporate most of the possibilities represented by so-called MEMS (Micro
Electrical-Mechanical Systems). 

Drexler's basic concept was that individual molecules (or even individual
atoms) could be manipulated by microscopic machines, in any way that the laws
of physics allowed. Cars, buildings, spaceships, whatever, could be grown out
of whatever material was desired. MEMS could disassemble an object into its
component atoms, and reassemble them as something completely different. Given
enough of atoms of the right sort, it would be theoretically possible to
fabricate anything on the spot, the only restrictions being the energy needed
for the job and enough atoms of the proper elements being present. A cloud of
MEMS (the so-called "smart fog" of SF stories) could grow a seven-course meal
right in front of the diners, including the table, chairs, plates, tablecloth,
utensils and water in the fingerbowls. The leftovers (including the table, the
plates, and so on) could be converted into a recliner couch for the diners to
nap on after the meal is eaten. Further, the MEMS could conceivably build
other MEMS, so the technology of replication would be self-replicating.
Infections could be dealt with by disassembling the infectious bacteria,
injuries healed by rebuilding the tissues at a molecular level, surgery
accomplished by a horde of microscopic repair robots that grow new heart
valves or replacement limbs. 

There is a dark side: MEMS could be used as weapons. An enemy could be
converted to a pool of constituent atoms by a cloud of microscopic attack
machines. Since these attack MEMS could be self-replicating, it would only be
necessary to send one in the attack force. The only defense would be other
MEMS. The whole situation would be beyond the individual's direct control, and
would somewhat resemble CBW (chemical/biological warfare) - you just have to
hope that your defensive MEMS remain superior to the attackers offensive MEMS,
and get regular innoculations.

A good role-playing game could be designed incorporating nanotech, but that
game would not be the Traveller we all know and love. If goods can be made to
order on the spot, there will be no need for trade (indeed, much of what we
know about supply and demand economics would cease to be relevant), which is
one of the primary sources of adventure situations in the Traveller universe.
There would be no mercenary adventures: why use armies to invade when you need
only introduce a few self-replicating attack MEMS to the enemy world. After
every living thing is dismantled to its component atoms, you send in your
colonists and their MEMS grow their infrastructure. 

In Traveller, nanotechnology is assumed to be present on a low level. It forms
the basis of certain medical devices (more and more as TL rises), and is
probably the means by which much high tech manufacturing takes place. If we
assume that MEMS are very, very expensive, and are not self-replicating (for
whatever reason), we have the basis for excluding much of Drexler's
nanotechnology from Traveller. Imperial research stations (q.v.) are probably
experimenting with high level nanotech, and Gamemasters who wish to put their
victi. . .er. . . players through a "nanites gone wild" scenario can look to
these places for justification. Individual Gamemasters, however, are free to
make nanotechnology as widespread as they like in their particular universe
(GURPS Robots and Ultra-Tech contain the relevant rules). 

< end sidebar >"

For those without clues, the handwave (such as it is) is in the last
paragraph. I'll put up the Cyber sidebar next, at my discretion.

Loren Wiseman

 PS: Portions of the G: T book should begin to be available on the SJG website
over the weekend. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:29:31 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Slight corrections

>> Which ones were the members of DGP listed in the credits?  I'm kind of
>> confused on this.
>>
>> ADDITIONAL DESIGN
>> Frank Chadwick
>> Joe D. Fugate Sr.
>> Gary L. Thomas
>>
>> EDITING
>> Joe D. Fugate Sr.
>> Gary L. Thomas
>
>All of these above are DGP people.
>
>A stetement open to potential misunderstanding: Frank was with GDW. Joe and
>Gary were with DGP. I know what you meant though.
>
>Harold remarked:
>>>DESIGN
>>Marc W. Miller
>>
>   IIRC, this credit was given because of Marc's originial work on classic
>Traveller.  By the time MT was released, he had become a consultant at GDW
>(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Marc or Loren).

Consultant is not a correct term. He was heavily involved with design, and the
term designer was correctly applied. 

>>ADDITIONAL DESIGN 
>>Frank Chadwick
>
>   Ditto Frank Chadwick, who was still a GDW employee (actually I think he
>was President by this point).

Always was president. Also heavily involved with design of almost everything
GDW produced.

>>Joe D. Fugate Sr.
>>Gary L. Thomas

>   DGP people who were primarily responsible for MT's development.  

Development, yes. What DGP did was take the various advanced character
generation systems from Mercenary, Merchant Prince, Scouts, and so on, and fit
them together. They added a task system, which was developed from the one used
in Twilight: 2000 (the original edition). This was a massive undertaking. 

>Not
>listed is Loren Wiseman, another GDW employee, who is given credit for
>"killing" Strephon and coming up with the original concept.

'Fraid not. I was involved in the development of the Rebellion, but the
original idea was from Tim Brown and heavily modified by Mac Miller. At the
time, my design energy was completely absorbed in Twilight: 2000, (which was
actually outselling Traveller at that point and needed a line manager) since I
was involved with the design of Twilight from the ground up.

My contribution the the MT background was coming up with the idea that one of
the contenders should be the "real" Strephon. My original notion was patterned
on an 18th century Russian named Pugachev. Those who recognize the name will
understand what the original intention was (kind of fortunate I made the
suggestion, eh what?). Marc and Tim created Dulinor, Lucan, Margaret, and the
other factions. 
 
Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:33:36 -0500
From: "Peter L. Berghold" <PeterB@Cyber-Wizard.Com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #322

At 04:42 PM 3/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> 
>numbers) matrix just to calculate the ships attempt to reach orbit.... with
>nothing more that 100 year old slide rules and maybe an abacus....
>

HAH!  You had such high tech equipment!  We had to MAKE our OWN slide rule
out of STICKS and an ABACUS!  We'd have given anything for an ABACUS! 

- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
- -+-+-+-+-
Peter L. Berghold   -- Unix Curmudgeon at Large
TCG MIS Planning and Architecture Group
VOX: (732) 392-2722   http://www.monmouth.com  mailto:PeterB@Cyber-Wizard.Com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:36:21 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: An idea...

> I was thinking about a Traveller desktop themeset for Windows 95 (or
> Mac...). 

	Huummmmm.......This would make window almost barable.  I like it!  But how
does one go about doing somthing like this?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 98 02:05 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

Moin Chris Seamans,

> Now, a free trader is made, say, with the intent of being crewed by people.
>  AIs and an extremely high degree of automation weren't installed in the
> ship initially because it was cheaper not to do so.  The intent was that
> people would run the ship.  As a result, life support was installed,
> command consoles, etc.  The AI to run the ship would be too expensive for
> the average free trader crew to purchase and to upgrade.  Hence, the
> automation has to be retrofitted.

	Of course a free trader will have its "AI" for that reason a TL:12
	starship computer of a 200dt ship has still the size of a refrigiator
	combination pack, even as its canon (HighGuard) to control such
	a ship with a TL:6 analog computer of even smaler size. Humans
	want those "natural speach" control and dynamical linking of
	operations. And this "AI" is running 99.999% of the ship 99% of
	the time. The full manual controled ship wont show crew
	accomodations of traveller, but those of a XXI (german U-Boat
	(50 people in a scout sized vessel). So traveller (even TNE)
	already has good automatisations compared to WWII. T4 offers to
	introduce higher levels of automatisation for moderate price, as
	does TNE for the risk getting caught by RQS.

	The cheapest thing for Joe Average free trader would be to buy
	one of those Robots. He can use them for 2nd engineer, for
	maintenance and for cargo handling. This would relase a lot of
	burden from the Chief, but a lot of Chiefs perfer a Philipino
	over a Robot, because is possible to chat to him in the spare
	time. Spare time wont be much. Bridge officiers would have a lot
	of paperwork as they have now, and work on board is currently
	streached, that some lines pay 80 overtime per week. That are only
	6.8 hour spare time per day for officers.

> When I'm running a game, the pilot switches his ship to
> automated control for take offs and landings from population centers (where
> big cargo ships would be going), as the on planet/in system space traffic
> control grid is more efficient at making sure ships don't crash.  That's my
> style.  There is no need to contact big cargo ships to arrange courses.

 	As todays airport they have to contact the tower to avoid radio
 	traffic chaos.

> Working passage is something that I could never rectify in my own mind. 
> You've got this huge cargo ship with tons of goods that a megacorp is
> making a sickening profit off of, and they'll take Joe Schmoe, Free Trader,
> on for a working passage without the ability to make a background check

	But a free trader would sometimes, as would some yacht owners.
	I know from friends, that at least german licences qualify to
	hire for a single working passage on most harbours of the world.
	Its not possible to hire on big line, but its likely to hire on
	small coast ships and yachts currently.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #327
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 28 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 328



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Strange question... (fwd)
Re: OK, here goes nuttin
A thought on the TRUE canon!
Re: Canon argument
Re: G:T (or GURPS: Traveller or T5 or...)
Re: Traveller: CCG [Was Re: <Sigh>]
Re: Good things that can come out of GURPS Traveller
Re: Canon Wars
Re: Traveller: Methodology
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
I get corrected...
Re: Traveller: Methodology
Re: I get corrected...
[T98#322] BioJewels
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #323

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 98 03:41 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Strange question... (fwd)

Moin Douglas,

> This is Free Trader Beowulf,
> calling anyone...
> Mayday, Mayday... we are under
> attack... main drive is gone..
> turret number one not responding...
> Mayday... losing cabin pressure
> fast... calling anyone... please help...
> This is Free trader Beowulf...
>                           Mayday...
> 
> ------------------------------------------
>               TRAVELLER
>               Science-Fiction Adventure in
>               the Far Future

	UvD for KaLeu - We just exit jumpspace without trouble, hope the
	rest of the ron will be here within the next hours.

	I have a signal showing a death mans tumble, orbiting the main world,
	repeating this infinite together with an transponder signal. Its
	probately a vampire, should I arm a lead head, to give the
	sucider what he wants, or do you want us to inspect the vessel
	when the ron is complete ? - over.

	KaLeu for Chief - Red - two short burst of HEPlaR at with
	(3/28-00:46:39,1437,0) and (3/28-00:46:53,1437,0) as long as we
	are hidden by the jump explosion. Fusion stays cool, life
	support and energy on fuel cell.  - over.

	Chief to KaLeu - (3/28-00:46:39,1437,0) and (3/28-00:46:53,1437,0)
	would give 84 MW/hours power left on hydroperoxyd.  - programmed
	and over.

	KaLeu for UvD - Our curse brings us into KKM range, we should
	spare the leadheads for real fights. Dispense decoys and launch
	and PEMS drone. Also launch a radio beacon to contact the other
	ships when they arrive. And as you asked, I'm asuming that you
	want to lead the boarding party. Any other hotheads here who
	want to inspect the vessel for its cargo ?  - over.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:55:54 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: OK, here goes nuttin

Loren said:
>
> In Traveller, nanotechnology is assumed to be present on a low level. It forms
> the basis of certain medical devices (more and more as TL rises), and is
> probably the means by which much high tech manufacturing takes place. If we
> assume that MEMS are very, very expensive, and are not self-replicating (for
> whatever reason), we have the basis for excluding much of Drexler's
> nanotechnology from Traveller. Imperial research stations (q.v.) are probably
> experimenting with high level nanotech, and Gamemasters who wish to put their
> victi. . .er. . . players through a "nanites gone wild" scenario can look to
> these places for justification. Individual Gamemasters, however, are free to
> make nanotechnology as widespread as they like in their particular universe
> (GURPS Robots and Ultra-Tech contain the relevant rules). 

Wow, I feel at the very least, somewhat vindicated.  As far as the
out-of-control nanites...  Have you been reading my campaign notes without
telling me Mr. Wiseman?  :^)

>  PS: Portions of the G: T book should begin to be available on the SJG
website
> over the weekend. 

What's the deal with this?  Is the access free, must it be paid for, is it
earned?  Etc...

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:56:02 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: A thought on the TRUE canon!

	I was thinking about all theese arguments about the canon.  I play CT with
much of my own stuff thrown in.  I have advanced the game through the years
and use the MT stuff, and my limited understanding of the Virus and TNE.  I
use a little from T4 as well.  I almost never use any of the published
adventures, and my players are almost never interested in anything but the
polotical side of the game, wih the occasional active duty marine thrown in
just for spice.

	I dare say that I have never played a canon game.

	Most people have their own character and they take them through an
adventure created by the GM.  They were roled up buy the player and
approved by the GM.  The GM has put his own mind to work creating the game,
and has taken varriable amounts of info from the canon.

	I dare say that this is not a canon game.

	I you want to claim to be playing a pure canon game of Traveller then play
nothing that is not a published adventure and use only the characters that
in the adventure.  But then, do you have an RPG or an interactive novel?

	Traveller is a GREAT game, with a rich history and wealth of background
information.  But each game run by each GM will be a vastly different game.
 Thus the only TRUE canon would be what ever is played under Marc Miller,
and the other writers of the game.
    

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:03:05 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Canon argument

> I can't believe this discussion. As far as I am concerned, Traveller is a

> set of rules for playing a Space-Opera style of Science Fiction game

	Hey, lets give credit where credit is due!  Traveller came before Space
Opera.

	Ok, enough nitpicking...

	I agree with almost everthing, except this:

>Both CT and MT had decent qualities that you could separate out the 
>game from the milieu. T4 failed at this and I have never seen TNE. 

	T4 did not fail at this.  In fact, unless you bought the Milieu 0 book you
only have the rules.  The setting was much more intregal to the CT amd MT
books that to T4.  I have never played TNE either.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:08:57 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: G:T (or GURPS: Traveller or T5 or...)

> I'd greatly appreciate _details_ about why some of you don't like the GURPS rules.
> I have absolutely _no_ experience with them. I'd ask on the GURPS
> mail group but everyone there *likes* GURPS.

	I do not mind the GURPS system, but I do have a problem with it.  I feel
that the game tries to be so generic that it becomes kind of bland and
dull.  I still play GURPS a little because of its versitility, but I tend
to use another games system entirely for everything else.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:21:19 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller: CCG [Was Re: <Sigh>]

> Go to the CORE Web site and click on the Abellatra proposal.  Jo Grant has
> the basic framework of a CCG for Traveller worked out to some extent, but
> stalled when he couldn't see any support from this list.
	
	I would buy a Traveller CCG

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:22:54 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Good things that can come out of GURPS Traveller

- ----------
> From: Mathew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Good things that can come out of GURPS Traveller
> Date: Friday, March 27, 1998 7:50 AM
> 
> Hi: 
> 
> I hope that GURPS can flavor the Traveller Background with more
> roleplaying influence. Traveller always seemed more like a political game
> than a roleplaying game. 
> 
> Matthew Harelick 

Or a science class.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 14:01:05 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: Canon Wars

In article <1.5.4.32.19980326200847.0093e5f8@wwwjci.lanl.gov>,
Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov> wrote:
>The Evil Sword Worlder Doug said:

>(they) All gave me useful material to steal.
>
>A true Traveller player and referee at heart!  Can we now terminate this war
>of words?

No.

That would require escalation to sentences or stanzas, which
in turn would lead to paragraphs, and soon we'd
have people slinging around near-C novellas.

>All the Traveller systems have something good and something bad.  Just use
>what you like..FCOL.  
>
>There is no Canon (cannon?) better than MY Canon.

You have your own personal important lay member
of the Church of England ?


Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:43:39 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: Traveller: Methodology

In article <1.5.4.32.19980327165354.0097ec6c@wwwjci.lanl.gov>,
Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov> wrote:
>Fellow Travellers:
>
>Ya know, Chris Seamens got me to thinking....Oh, Oh.  Eric's thinking again....
>
>What has affected the way I developed my ideas of the Traveller universe?

For me its (warning long list follows):

>Authors:

E.C.Tubb          ( Dumarest series, S.T.A.R.),
Poul Anderson     ( Ensign Flandry)
Gordon Dickson    ( Dorsai series, especialy the first "Tactics of Misake")   
David Drake       ( Hammer's Slammers series)
Niven & Pournelle ( The Mote in God's Eye )
Timothy Zahn      ( The Black Collar, Cobra  )
John Brunner      ( Stand on Zanzibar, The Sheep Look Up,
                    Shockwave Rider, Into the Slave Nebula..
                    Brunner gives a good "people" side to things )
                    
Christofer Rowley ( StarHammer,  best description of IBIS yet
                    The Vang : Military Form,
                      for how Virus _should_ have been done )
the guy who did   ( Honor Harrington)
Jerry Pournelle   ( The Mercenary stuff)
the writers of    ( Perry Rhodan, the Arkonides are classic Vilani )
H.Beam Piper      ( for Fuzzy Sapiens)
Larry Niven       ( Known Space, especially Man-Czin war)
Cyril Judd        ( Gunner Cade )
Olaf Stapeldon    ( for just being so damn cosmic )
Lois McMaster Bujold( The Warriors Apprentice)
Walter Jon Williams ( Hardwired )

>Movies and TV:
>
Silent Running
A Clockwork Orange
Dark Star
Outland
Blade Runner
2001, 2010 
Alien, Aliens.
Starship Troopers
The Man who would be King
Out of Africa
Lawrence of Arabia
Akira
The Silence of the Lambs
Total Recall.
Blake's 7
Predator
Babylon 5
Zardoz


Music :

Blows aginst the Empire
(Paul Kantner, ex Jefferson Starship). especialy
 "Have you seen the stars tonight?"

The Intergalactic Touring Band.
( various artists )

Cygnus XI
(Rush)

Karnevil Nine
(Emerson Lake and Palmer)

Interstellar Overdrive
Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun 
Wish You Were Here
(Pink Floyd)


>What I like is a "Space Opera" playing session.  Players becoming actors of
>bigger than life characters.  What the hey!  Everyone likes an opportunity
>to "Save the Universe."

I can play or run such games, but they aren't always my preference.
I prefer low level, survive or die, or political intrigue games.

>So now I need to ask you TMLer friends of mine
>these questions...

>How do you remind yourself it's only a game?

I don't. It ruins immersion.
(then again I also play Live Vampire and Mage games so maybe
 I'm a bit different from most T-Geeks )

>How do you make it fun for your players?... not yourselves because your
>enjoyment comes from developing, authoring and running your universe.

By getting them involved in the setting.

>How do you maintain balance amongst players and the game system?

I don't. Why bother ? The universe isn't balanced.

>What made your sessions work

player involvement
real emotions.  

>and more importantly, where did you fail?

The following are things I tend to do
which can have negative effects on some players
(Mind you, other players like this sort of thing)

Not enough "bubblegum action", too gritty and "realistic" for some
people (i.e: I describe the effects of having your arm shot of
 by a fusion weapon, squeamish people need not apply)
 
When (if) the Imperium arrives they always have it all over
the players. (Better SatInt. better C3, better teamwork,
beter gear ). Do _not_ mess with Imperial Commandos.
And if you even _suspect_ IBIS are involved, get the hell
out of there.

Some players don't like being reminded they're _not_
the best, the best are already employed by the sort of
people who can afford them, they don't hang around in bars
looking for patrons.

(Unless, of course the characters are playing characters
 who _are the best, in which case they usually end up being
 employed by the sort of peple who can afford them....)

>So reflect and give me your comments.  Feel free to contact me personally if
>you feel uncomfortable about your negative experiences.

<grin>

Hi Eric, my name's Frankie, and I'm a Traveller GM....


Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:10:52 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

[Last post.  This clearly has reached the end of usefulness.]
Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:28:00 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>No.  Factories are not automated to the degree that our automation
>technology allows.  If that were true, there'd be far more automated.  They
>are automated to the degree that automation is cost effective.

Well, the cost if part of what makes things "possible" this
applies to the arguement at hand as I stated in previous post.

>> Now, the arguement for automation of ships has been that it
>> is already possible to automate the tasks that a human would
>> be expected to do on a ship.  That say it will be cheap at
>> the TL's where you can build starships.  If you want to
>> say that this isn't true, and invoke higher cost, why stop
>> at a cost that means it will happen and you have to work
>> to make sure it only happens in places that don't affect
>> PCs (which, as I have stated, I'm not sure exist) when
>> the same reasoning can leave you fully compatible with
>> the current background by just making it too expensive
>> for any use?

>Well fine.  This argument is tiresome.

Well, I can say the same thing about some of your posts...

>  Automation is completely impossible
>in Traveller.  Sci-fi staples such as robots cannot exist.  If they did,
>then there'd be nothing for PCs to do forever.  Traveller is the 19th
>Century in space, despite the vast advances in technology and the
>interesting possibilities that are opened by said technologies.

Especially when you address things I have never said.

>> You really aren't going to be able to do complete background checks
>> in hiring (unless you wait months for the replies) since you
>> aren't going to be able to get data from off planet.  Unless
>> you plan to have replacement workers just sitting around
>> in case you have vacancies, you use an interview and what
>> data you can get locally.

>Okay, that's your way of seeing it.  Then in that case, the Megacorps are
>entirely stupid and would never have gotten to the size that they've gotten
>if every Tom, Dick and Harry with Pilot or Astrogation-1 can manage to get
>a working passage on their massive cash-cow cargo ships.  Megacorps should
>now be declared non-canon because they would never be able to survive being
>that stupid.

Again, this bears not resemblance to my arguements....

[More stuff that has nothing to do with anything I've said
deleleted....]

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 23:45:31 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

> From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> 
> >Well fine.  This argument is tiresome.
> 
> Well, I can say the same thing about some of your posts...

Ouch.  I am wounded.  Note, I haven't been slinging insults here.  I'd just
rather stop before things get ugly, which they already have.  All I've got
to see to this is, fine, my apologies, don't read my posts.

> >  Automation is completely impossible
> >in Traveller.  Sci-fi staples such as robots cannot exist.  If they did,
> >then there'd be nothing for PCs to do forever.  Traveller is the 19th
> >Century in space, despite the vast advances in technology and the
> >interesting possibilities that are opened by said technologies.
> 
> Especially when you address things I have never said.

Then, I really have no clue at all about what you are saying.  I'll be
upfront and honest about it.  

> >Okay, that's your way of seeing it.  Then in that case, the Megacorps
are
> >entirely stupid and would never have gotten to the size that they've
gotten
> >if every Tom, Dick and Harry with Pilot or Astrogation-1 can manage to
get
> >a working passage on their massive cash-cow cargo ships.  Megacorps
should
> >now be declared non-canon because they would never be able to survive
being
> >that stupid.
> 
> Again, this bears not resemblance to my arguements....

Hold on a second here!  You say that automation would eliminate the concept
of work passage on Megacorp cargo ships.  I said, even without automation,
Megacorps would cover their butts so as not to be sabotaged by any group. 
This includes doing comprehensive backup checks.  You said that it would be
too difficult for Megacorps to perform the backup checks.

This was my response to that.  Please correct me if I'm wrong on what you
stated, if I am wrong, I must have lost you a long time ago.

> [More stuff that has nothing to do with anything I've said
> deleleted....]

I'm really sorry I don't follow.  What exactly have you been saying? 
Apparently I must have lost you completely.

Now, I will apologize for my shortness in my previous post.  It may have
been a little uncalled for.  Now, however, I'd like you to please state
your side of the argument clearly so that I can understand where you're
coming from.  It seems like every idea I come up with, you just say, "It
won't work.  It will take work away from the players."  Give me some
feedback here so I can try to wrap my brain around your side of the
argument.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 23:54:13 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: I get corrected...

Volker says:

>> >* Marinus van der Lubbe
>> 
>> A German anarchist, framed by the Nazi party for bombing the Reichstag, and
>> mentioned as part of a gag in a Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers comic of the
>> 70s.
>Dutch, actually.

Dutch, Deutsch, what's a few little letters between friends : )

Yes, I had forgotten -- Volker is right. 

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:27:27 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller: Methodology

>Ya know, Chris Seamens got me to thinking....Oh, Oh.  Eric's thinking
again....
>
>What has affected the way I developed my ideas of the Traveller universe?

Since I unintentionally started this, I'll add my two cents :^)

>Authors:

Note that the reading list will be a little light, as I'm not much of a
reader of novels.


Gibson (just about anything, I specifically like the little details)
Sterling (as above but x10)
Asimov (The Foundation series, obviously)
Vonnegut (influences my personality, which indirectly influences my play
style :^)
Clarke (specifically Rama, as it just filled me with such a wonderful sense
of awe)
Akira (the comic book series)
EC Comics of all sorts (including Weird Science)
The old Buck Rogers strips (don't ask)
The Sandman (comic series, for the "grand scheme of things" aspect)

>Movies and TV:

The Alien series (Alien being my favorite of the three)
Blade Runner
WarGames
The Usual Suspects (major influence on my current campaign)
M*A*S*H (both the TV show and the movie)
Red Dwarf
Total Recall (the little touches are fantastic)
Robocop (for the commercials)
2001:  A Space Odyssey
Terminator

Video Games:

Starflight (simply the best video game I've ever played)
Starflight II

If I ever ran a Trav game outside the Imperial timeline, it would be based
on the Starflight series, with some touches from the StarControl series.

StarControl (whole series)
Most space based video games pre-1984

>What I like is a "Space Opera" playing session.  Players becoming actors of
>bigger than life characters.  What the hey!  Everyone likes an opportunity
>to "Save the Universe."

I like playing somewhat fast and loose, as I'm constantly amazed by what
the PCs come up with.  The possibility of "real" death and "real" bloodshed
constantly hangs over the heads of the players, and they usually rise to
the occasion.  They are more of a "thinking" group than a fighting group.

>So now I need to ask you TMLer friends of mine
>these questions...
 
>How do you remind yourself it's only a game?

I don't know.  My PCs don't usually need to be reminded, and I don't.  We
just have fun playing.

>How do you make it fun for your players?... not yourselves because your
>enjoyment comes from developing, authoring and running your universe.

I make it fun for my players by trying to involve them in the adventures as
much as possible, and by trying to come up with new and innovative
adventure hooks.  Currently they are involved in a race/scavenger hunt
across the subsector in competition with a group of ex-scouts.  This has
proven to be the most fun adventure I've run in a long time. 

>How do you maintain balance amongst players and the game system?

I limit the availability of heavy weapons, and I make sure that the PCs are
held accountable for their actions.

>What made your sessions work

I'm still not completely sure.  If I was, I would have an easier job of
coming up with adventures!  :^)  What has started to make my campaign work
is that the PCs are finally getting involved outside of the storylines of
adventures and are starting to "live" in the campaign world to some extent.

>and more importantly, where did you fail?

One of the times I failed is when I was caught completely unprepared for
the PCs' next move.  One night they seemed out to get me and decided to
jump to a completely random mainworld in search of adventure.  They did
something completely random, and then, rather mean spiritedly, if I say so
myself, kept pressing me on extremely minor details once they got there...

The downside of mob mentality.

My major fault in roleplaying is I tend to lose steam after the 1st month
and a half of playing.  I've already passed the hump and survived, so it
looks to be pretty smoothe sailing from here.

Let's see...  My only other fault is that I find it difficult to introduce
the culture of the Imperium to PCs without either longwinded descriptions
(which they will tend to forget in a few weeks anyway) or copious amounts
of handouts.  My current race/scavenger hunt is an attempt to do this in a
pleasant manner, and they are responding very well to it.  I am quite proud
:^)

It's the little things that are so tough to get across.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:30:02 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: I get corrected...

> >> A German anarchist, framed by the Nazi party for bombing the
Reichstag, and
> >> mentioned as part of a gag in a Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers comic of
the
> >> 70s.
> >Dutch, actually.
> 
> Dutch, Deutsch, what's a few little letters between friends : )
> 
> Yes, I had forgotten -- Volker is right. 

A question, were the Freak Brothers a big influence on Traveller in the
early days?  :^)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 06:02:27 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#322] BioJewels

On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:05:24 -0500, Bruce Johnson
<johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> wrote:

>Cool...Jeff! TL 12 Mood Rings!  what's next, Hologrammatic neck chains?
>Fusion+ Disco Balls! Maybe Chameleon Leisure Suits...yeah!! ;->

<sniff class="haughty"> Hardly mood rings - these are
sophisticated items for the discerning socialite seeking to make
a statement, not crass junk jewelry for the masses looking for
cheap thrills.</sniff>

Especially not at that price. (Incidentally, I looked it up: 1
carat [jewelry] = 200mg.)

Incidentally, the date of the article was 3/26, not 3/2.

And I thought of Mood Rings: The Next Generation, too, when I
read the article.

Holographic Neck Chains are old hat, even today.  The only
difference that I can envision for the FarFuture is that perhaps
they'll be holoprojective, instead of the current embedded deals.

Fusion+ Disco Balls?  Too obvious - what do you think is powering
the antigrav generator in Imperial Disco Balls (which are viewed
as "Classical-Retro" lighting units)?

Chameleon Leisure Suits?  It could be done, but the cost of the
chameleon polyester fabric makes it uneconomical.

>Definitely gets into that '70s and '80s feel of Traveller! ;-P

That all depends on how you want to cast them - I mean, they
don't _have_ to be programmed to look like a cluster of disco
lights pinned to your jacket...

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 06:02:38 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #323

On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:32:09 -0500, Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
wrote:

>     I think we can pretty much assume that G:T is going to be mostly the
>same sort of stable setting as CT. Yes, Loren hints at some underlying
>friction, but obviously that can't be too much otherwise we'd just have
>Rebellion which, we know by contract, isn't going to happen. So what I'd do
>is assume that Strephon does carry on, serve his term as emporer and his
>son Strephon II ascends the throne.

Daughter.  Crown Princess Iphigenia.  Go check out the original
assassination story.  Empress Iolanthe and Crown Princess
Iphigenia were in the Presence Chamber when Dulinor attacked;
they both died with "Strephon" (who turned out to be a ceremonial
clone). Varian (head-of-house in a cadet line, and next heir
behind Iphigenia) was killed under questionable circumstances,
possibly by his younger brother, Lucan.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #328
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 28 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 329



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

I get corrected... (fwd)
The old days
THUDDD 9: Announcement and RFP - Lab Ship
Re: (un)canon Kinunir
Re: The Marc W. Millar Clinic
Any doctors out there?
Re: Traveller:  Methodology
Re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)
Re: OK, here goes nuttin
Re: Slight corrections
Re: Social Diseases
Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec
Re: Imperial ID
Re: OK, here goes nuttin
Traveller Desktop Theme...
Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures
Re: G:T (or GURPS: Traveller or T5 or...)
GURPS Traveller playtest
Re: Traveller Desktop Theme...
Re: Military protocol question...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 98 06:59 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: I get corrected... (fwd)

Moin Loren,

> Dutch, Deutsch, what's a few little letters between friends : )
> Yes, I had forgotten -- Volker is right. 

	I've done the same error ;-( Making him german ;-)

	And for the Netherlands the distinction is for importance, I allways
	forget, that even if 90% of them is able to speak german, they either
	prefer Platt (common between Netherlands and Friesland) or english,
	but raise noses, when you use german.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 01:13:09 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: The old days

>> 
>>numbers) matrix just to calculate the ships attempt to reach orbit....
with
>>nothing more that 100 year old slide rules and maybe an abacus....
>

>HAH!  You had such high tech equipment!  We had to MAKE our OWN slide rule
>out of STICKS and an ABACUS!  We'd have given anything for an ABACUS! 

- -
- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

- - -+-+-+-+-
>Peter L. Berghold   -- Unix Curmudgeon at Large
>TCG MIS Planning and Architecture Group
>VOX: (732) 392-2722   http://www.monmouth.com 
mailto:PeterB@Cyber-Wizard.Com

Sticks ! Sticks!! All of our sticks were used for fire wood and would not
waste them to make slide rules.


Ha ! I remember a game when our slide rules were frozen and we removed our
legs from the knees down made notched in the bone and used our bone marrow
for filling in the notches so we could calculate.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 22:27:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 9: Announcement and RFP - Lab Ship

> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:28:11 -0500
> From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
> 
> Does anyone know, have the latest THUDDD entry specs been released yet? 
> I'm itching to put my new FF&S2 to good use!!

At long last -- thanks for your patience, everyone! -- I am very pleased
to release the THUDDD 9 RFP.  Our schedule is: 

  Friday   March 27:   RFP released
  Saturday April 11:   Entry deadline
  Monday   April 13:   Voting begins
  Sunday   April 26:   Voting ends
  Tuesday  April 28:   Results announced

A webpage update with this information and the full results of THUDDD 8
will occur this weekend.

===

(from Imperial Commerce Business Daily, 028/317)

The Imperial Insterstellar Scout Service, in conjunction with the Ministry
of Trade and Development, is pleased to announce their sponsorship of a
new Imperial Ship Builders Association THUDDD design competition.  The
winning entrant will receive a limited production run contract to produce
10 vessels of the class, with an option to extend into full production
(100+ vessels) pending completion of field trials. 

The vessel to be produced is a small science vessel, in concept a "mobile
laboratory" for use in Imperium-sponsored research, exploration, and
resource management roles.  The minimum performance requirements are:

* Jump 2
* Operational independence for long-duration, long-range missions
  (intrinsic refueling and maintenance)
* Ability to interface with world surfaces (directly or via carried
  craft)
* Provision of 40 dtons (560 m3) of dedicated laboratory space
* Provision of quarters and other support for 20 researchers (in
  addition to other crewmembers)
* High-resolution, high-sensitivity sensors

Bidders are invited to include, justify, and satisfy additional
requirements, should they judge them necessary to fulfill the design
function.

Price is a secondary but important criterion in determining the winner of
this competition.  Efficient fulfillment of the operational requirements
is the primary goal. 

Typical roles for this vessel might include (but are by no means limited
to): 

* Resource evaluation survey of stellar systems
* Sophontological analysis of less technologically developed cultures
* Platform for deep space physics investigations

The vessel is not expected to have more than token defense capabilities
against TL 7+ opponents.  Any components intended for world surface
landings (the vessel itself, or its carried craft) should be capable of
withstanding TL 4- direct assault indefinitely.

Contact the ISBA THUDDD Coordinating Office for more information.  Long
Live the Emperor!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 22:49:34 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: (un)canon Kinunir

Michael Koehne wrote:

>        The referencs of uncanon Kinunir sounds as if the german translation
>        was better than the origial :
>
>        " R: Ein Subsectorbeamter (...) erklaert grossmaeulig, das die
>        Streitkraefte des Subsectors vier Schiffe der Kinunir-Klasse im
>        Dienst haben (...), [ ... ] "
>
>        I allways read this " grossmaeulig " as a hint that he is a drunken
>        greenhorn, who is claiming that those nice little black globed ships
>        are able to secure the !complete! empire. Anybody should recocknise
>        that this man is a !complete! greenhorn concerned military and
>        spacenaval operations. Perhaps he has even never seen a starport
>        yet ?  You know those guys from the mountains telling you
>        everything about sailing ships, what they've learned the pirate
>        films they've seen.
>
>        Babelfish tells loudmouthed for grossmaeulig, what was in the original?

Interesting!  I think "loudmouth" for "grossmaeul" is too literal and not
idiomatic -- better, "grossmaeulig" = "bragging".  I agree -- to solve this
"canon problem", just interpret the text so that official is a pompous,
swaggering idiot.

Babelfish isn't the greatest language resource... for some simple-minded
but side-splitting fun, get some badly written anatomically ill-informed
porn off the Web and run it through Babelfish a couple times.

Don't do this at work.  For the keyboards' sake!

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 22:49:40 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: The Marc W. Millar Clinic

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>At the Marc Millar Clinic, the patients are treated with the latest technics
>and medications. It costs $5000 a day for the drugs the doctors need, another
>$10,000 for those required by the patients. Currently five strains of TOSS

BACK, BACK, FOUL HELLSPAWN!!!!   HIE THEE HENCE!!!!!!

Cr2000 per week.  Period.  If your life is worth anything to you, you
WRONGHEADED MEANSPIRITED CANON-WRECKING WRETCH!!!!!   RETRO VADE,
SATHANAS!!!!!!!!!

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 01:34:52 -0600
From: eldwyn@juno.com
Subject: Any doctors out there?

As many have noticed, I'm sure, doctors seem to play a significant role
in many of the more popular SF shows: ST and all its en carnations, B5,
etc.

How about in real life? Or, how about IYTU? Do military doctors really
have the same influence on ship-board policies and decisions? I imagine
their main purpose on TV is to provide the "All life is precious" and
"Killing is wrong" slants to balance the other characters.

Has anybody else thought about this, or is it just me?

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 19:04:40 +1100
From: scout <scout@microtech.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  Methodology

At 09:53 27/03/98 -0700, you wrote:

>What has affected the way I developed my ideas of the Traveller universe?
>

snipping

>
>Movies and TV:

snippage

>Starship Troopers (a disappointment to this Heinlein fan, but good action)

My players were didn't like me seeing this movie, they were worried that
the next adventure would be loaded with bugs....
In fact... they have made a request to mmy defacto that they be allowed to
censor my viewing material.....


Harry (aka scout)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 09:56:37 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)

On 27 Mar 98, Robert Eaglestone disseminated foul Templar
propaganda by writing:

<snip IMTU code>

This code is worthless!!! There's no entry for Sayat!! 

I propose using "say for Sayat". ;>

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  IMTU ?tc t4+ to++ ru-- ge++ !3I jt au- !st ls !kk hi++ as+ !so !vi !sy say++
    If it wasn't for C, we would be using BASI, PASAL and OBOL!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 04:57:02 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: OK, here goes nuttin

GDW GAMES wrote:

> "Lay on, MacDuff!"

And damned be him who first cries, "Hold! Enough!"

Edward DeVere
(The author of the plays attributed to William Shakspear, who couldn't write his
own name).





aka Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 05:05:16 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Slight corrections

Ahh, Loren!  If I make it to Austin, anytime in the next 6 months (else
I won't make it at all), we will drink beer on 6th street or  Gaudalupe
or eat at the GM Steak House (free side of abuse with every meal).  And
you will teach me of Travellers history and I will tell you of my vision
(ok,ok, Jo Gran'ts vision, too) of Traveller: CCG!  I will regale you
with stories of beta-testing GURPS (cripes!  am I that old?) and how the
fact that the most heroic character statuts depended upon his skill as a
lawyer drove me to a career in law.  And you will tell my namesake
Steve, Steve with a Jackson and not a Daniels.  And he will hite me.
And it will be good.

Here endeth the gospel of steve.

(when will In Nomine be adapted for Traveler universe  :-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 03:36:36 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Social Diseases

Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> wrote

> <Groan-shudder> Oooohh flesh-eating bacterium and sexually transmitted are
> NOT two concepts that should be in the same sentence!!

You mean like Alpha-S-D-plasmid-3 ?

	" Alpha-S-D-plasmid-3."

	The clerk's tapping hand paused. "Alpha-S-D-plasmid-2 is a sexually
transmitted soft tissue necrosis that originated on Varusa Tertius.  Is
that what you mean ?"
	
	Quinn shook her head.  "This is a new and much more virulent strain of
Varusan Crotch-rot.  They haven't even bioengineered the counter-virus
last I heard."

Ethan of Athos pg 163 - Lois McMaster Bujold

<insert blatant plug here>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 03:37:55 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec

Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> wrote

> >I think we calculated that a ship with 10G (or 15G?) engines
> >could travel a parsec in 42 days or so.  I don't remember if
> >we worried about c or not.
> 
> If you worry about c, then it takes a minimum of 3 years to travel a
> parsec, since a parsec is that many light years.

Actually if you want to ignore c you can, it is just that then you will
be seeing how long it takes for the trip

 _from_the_point_of_view_of_those_on_the_ship_

and not for those not on the ship.  If you figure how long it will take
to travel a certain distance at a constant acceleration using good old
Newtonian mechanics and ignoring relativity you will have a pretty good
approximation of how long it will take in ships time.

If the scenario in question is the classic "Oh no, we just misjumped,
lets get in the low bearths and head for the nearest planet - but wait
do we have enough energy to run our low bearths for that long ?"
scenario then it is ships time that is important anyway.

> As a rough and ready guide, you hit 0.5 c, where relativity might start to
> get interesting, after at=1.5e8m/s = 100 t = 1.5e8 -> 1.5e6 s -> 18 days or
> so at ten gravities.  At 1 g, you would hit c in a year, more or less.
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 03:40:25 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

"Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net> wrote

> >An Imperial ID would be something you keep with you, presumably, and
> >will be made night-indestructible.  This leads to other possibilities:

> Good ideas so far, but everyone is missing the point of my original query.
> I wanted to know from the creative minds on this list, what you may think
> the thing *LOOKS LIKE*. Any suggestions?

Warning - answer is somewhat long & pedantic.

I would suggest that the Imperial ID card has an Imperial ID number on
it.  This number appears (in slightly raised numbers) across the left
two thirds of the top of your card, above your name and other data, and
to the left of your photo.  I think that the Imperial ID number on it
will come in this format:

        XX NLN NLN NLN NLN

Where XX is a standard two letter abrieviation for the Sector you were
born in, such as SM for the Spinward Marches.  Every single sector the
Imperium has ever heard of, not just those actually in the Imperium, has
a standard abreviation (those poor souls who do not know where they were
born will be given a card w XX on it if the Imperium can't figure it out
either.)

NLN stands for number, letter, number such as 5A3.  Each 3 letter
combination will have 2600 combinations in it (more if your version of
Traveller canon assumes that the Imperium uses the Vilani script not the
Roman one for Galanglic, this theory tends to be supported by art
showing ship names, etc - I am using 2600 for simplicity).

So 4 sets of NLN combinations will produce 2600 ^ 4 or
45,697,600,000,000 possible ID combinations for _each_ sectors
inhabitants. (If you used hexadecimal numbers rather than decimal
numbers you would have about 25 times this many but then your
hexadecimal numbers A through F would get mixed up with your numbers so
I do not suggest it) This means that not just every one of the Third
Imperiums 15 trillion inhabitants, but every inhabitant it has ever had,
and everyone from anywhere else, can be given distinct ID numbers. 

This one ID number combines all the functions that we now assign to the
Drivers liscence number, and the Social Security Number, and the
Military ID number, and the corporate ID number, and the pilots liscence
number, and the vidoe rental club number, and all the rest.  If you join
the Imperial Navy, or TAS (for example) they will issue you a Naval ID
card in addition to your Imperial ID but it will have the same number
across the top and its smart card function will have most or all of the
same data on it with the addition of your service/membership record,
etc.

The overall number is only 14 digits long.  It has extra spaces in it to
ensure that no long number or letter strings are in it.  This reduces
the chance of an error during data entry by a dyslexic clerk who
reverses the ID numbers.  ID numbers are _not_ reused, since you will be
issued a unique number you can not be mistaken for someone else from the
past. 

This system has been in place since Milieu 0.  When the Solomani
Confederation left the Third Imperium they kept their Imperial format
ID's.  One of the lesser subparagraphs within the armistice treaty at
the end of the Solomani Rim War dealt with the creation of a joint
Imperial/Confederation committee to ensure that ID numbers were not
duplicated.  This was one of the very few joint Imperial/Confederation
bureacratic projects <insert plot hook here>.  The Imperium had an
unofficial, but highly followed, practice of appointing as many Newts to
this committee as they could, supposedly because Newts are natural
bureaucrats but actually because they knew dealing with aliens would
annoy the racist SOlomani.

Imperial ID is issued to everyone who comes through the Imperium who
wants one.  Any aliens not travelling on a diplomatic passport from
their own governmnet have to get one to enter the Imperium.  Anyone
travelling anywhere sufficiently near the Imperium that a misjump might
bring them within its borders would be well advised to get one.  If you
are from a planet with a type X starport you can't get an ID card at
home; if you leave planet you can get one, just like anyone else, but
only after you answer some hard questions about how and why you left
home.

On the ID your status is noted right under the number: Citizen, Resident
Alien, Visitor, Android, Nonsentient Animal (ID's in this category have
a Cr 250 cost this in case you need an ID number for your pet or
companion animal to get it through customs, numbers are not normally
issued to livestock), Etc.  Replacement ID's cost at least Cr 500.  If
you are part of an alien army attempting to invade an Imperial world you
had better bring your Imperial ID with you if you want to be treated
like a soldier, rather than a criminal, when captured.  Of course if you
_do_ bring your Imperial ID with you it will be easier for the planetary
forces to find you with their scanners.  Life is like that sometimes.

I suggest that on planets with a low law level having the ID will
usually not be required but if it is not having it will result in all
governmnent tasks being 1 difficulty level higher.  I suggest that _all_
tasks involving interacting with the government, or _any_ other
bureaucratic organization, be made 2 difficulty level higher on any
planet with a medium law level. (Have you ever tried toborrow a library
book without a library card for example.) On planets with a high law
level tasks involving government interaction should be either forbidden
entirely, or made 3 difficulty levels higher, in addition you may need
to roll a Persuasion or Admin task to avoid a fine or arrest for not
having proper ID.  On extreme law level worlds you may be gunned down by
beat cops who cannor read the signature of your ID with the scanner on
their uniform or armor and who therefore know that you must be a
terrorist because after all only a terrorist or traitor would want to
make the jobs of the police any harder....  

If the planets government is type 9, Impersonal Bureaucracy, I suggest
using the high law level +3 Diff Mods to all bureaucratic or government
tasks rule, no matter what the law level is.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 06:38:49 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: OK, here goes nuttin

>Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:29:40 EST
>From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
>Subject: OK, here goes nuttin
>
...
>(GURPS Robots and Ultra-Tech contain the relevant rules). 
>
...

There are two Ultra-Tech books:  UT2, pp. 7-9 is the primary reference on
the effects of nanotech on a campaign, and the section on "Safetech" (p. 9)
applies directly to Traveller.

You should probably also include GURPS Biotech among your references.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 08:05:18 -0600
From: The Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Traveller Desktop Theme...

It's been asked how we would go about making such a thing...

Well, for Windows 95 its rather easy...I can put the theme file together
(its real simple)...but somebody has to make the graphics. And we need
to decide on the color scheme. 

Like I said earlier, I made an attempt to make the graphics, and it was
unimpressive. I DID manage to make a Imperial Sunburst icon and a
Shattered Imperial Sunburst icon, which someone suggested as a
Recycle/Trash bin icon...but I tried to make a Scout/Courier icon and
failed pretty badly.

If anyone would like to work on this mini-project with me, please email
me. Thanks!

- -- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew, Christine, and Matthew Akins                               |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:09:56 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures

The first response that comes to mind is that neither of those are 
easily modified.  You have to delete the relevant line or lines, and
then add a new one.  With a CAD file you would only have to drag
the end of the line.  Besides I don't have a high end graphical arts
program that would be needed.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, March 20, 1998 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: Deckplans/Cardboard figures


>Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE> writes:
>>The best way would be a .dxf CAD-Format or a .wmf Format for Windows, as
>>these are ubiquitous. (Don't know enough about .pdf's) I used the .wmf
>>format for some Faction and Megacorp Logo Files. 
>
>Ubiquitous for PCs, maybe. My Mac can't read wmf files.  What's wrong with
>GIFF or JPEG?
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:12:28 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: G:T (or GURPS: Traveller or T5 or...)

David,

While I haven't played GURPS:Traveller in any form, I have played/Ref'ed
Trav since it's release, and I can say the same for GURPS (Run a Fantasy,
Swashbuckler, Wild West, with elements stolen form Space:1889, and a Space ,
and Wildcards campaigns). Overall I like the GURPS rules, however, you have
to be ready to pick and choose. The rule set is VERY detailed if you try and
include everything it really tends ot bog the game down. Of course this can
be said about any RPG to some extent.

With that in mind the diversity of GURPS world books presents a LOT of
material to pull from in creating worlds and backgrounds. I have no doubt
that the Traveller book(s?) will do the same.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, March 27, 1998 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: G:T (or GURPS: Traveller or T5 or...)


>Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:10:49 -0600, "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
>>.  Since I'm finding some nice things in them, I'd greatly
>>appreciate _details_ about why some of you don't like the GURPS rules.
>>I have absolutely _no_ experience with them. I'd ask on the GURPS
>>mail group but everyone there *likes* GURPS.
>
>Note: you would have seen such comments regardless of the game.
>Every game has its detractors, if only because every game can't
>support every possible gaming philosphy, and the comments about
>GURPS only show prove that it isn't some perfect nirvana of
>gaming...
>
>I have been running GURPS Traveller before it was even announced
>and it does, in fact, work very well.  If you have questions feel
>free to e-mail me.
>
>____________________________
>Summers@Alum.MIT.edu
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:20:35 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller playtest

The rules for playtesting at Steve Jackson Games seem to have changed
somewhat since I last checked them.  It appears that you must now be a
subscriber to Pyramid magazine (the SJG house publication), at $15/year.
The relevant info is available at:

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/playtest.html

(NB:  You used to have to be a subscriber to Illuminati Online ISP, at a
cost of about $15/month. This system should make the playtests more
accessible to the general readership.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 08:53:22 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Desktop Theme...

- ----------
> From: The Akins <igor@ames.net>
> To: TML <Traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: Traveller Desktop Theme...
> Date: Saturday, March 28, 1998 8:05 AM
> 
> It's been asked how we would go about making such a thing...
> 
> Well, for Windows 95 its rather easy...I can put the theme file together
> (its real simple)...but somebody has to make the graphics. And we need
> to decide on the color scheme. 
> 
> Like I said earlier, I made an attempt to make the graphics, and it was
> unimpressive. I DID manage to make a Imperial Sunburst icon and a
> Shattered Imperial Sunburst icon, which someone suggested as a
> Recycle/Trash bin icon...but I tried to make a Scout/Courier icon and
> failed pretty badly.

	I don't even have the abality to produce the simple designes you have
mentioned.  However I think that somthing else should be the recycling bin.

> 
> If anyone would like to work on this mini-project with me, please email
> me. Thanks!
> 
> -- 
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Andrew, Christine, and Matthew Akins                               |
> | Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
> | Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
> | sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
> | daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
> | gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
> | lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
> |                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:35:25 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: Military protocol question...

In article <980324.011542.3Z6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>,
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> I don't know how accurate the movies are, but we always used to laugh at US
>> privates having to call their NCOs 'Sir'. If we did that the laest you'd
>> get was "Don't insult me like that again - I work for my pay. Give me 30!
>> (press-ups)".
>
>US NCOs react much the same according to every ex-service type I've
>ever talked to. You *don't* call NCO's "Sir!"

One slight differwnce to this in Commonmwealth
armed forces is when referring to the top level
NCO's such as Warrant Officers and Chief Petty Officers.

While they may accept "Chief" and other rank based terms
from commisioned officers, other ranks are expected to
call them "Sir". The difference between WO/CPOs and
commisioned officers is that you don't salute
a non-commisoned officer.

Frankie










>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

- -- 
Frankie

Frank G. Pitt | When in doubt, wash | fun:   frankie@mundens.gen.nz
Wellington    |   (Orlando)         |        frankie@paradise.net.nz 
New Zealand   |                     | profit: fpitt@nz1.ibm.com
    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #329
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 28 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 330



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: canon vs. Canon
Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity
Re: canon vs. Canon
Re: Canon Wars
Re: The old days
Re: Traveller: Methodology
G:T
Re: Any doctors out there?
Re: The old days
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #322
RE: canon vs. Canon
Re: (un)canon Kinunir
Re: (un)canon Kinunir
Re: Imperial ID
Re: Any doctors out there?
Re: Traveller Desktop Theme...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:49:59 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

In article <199803262157.QAA12091@Mithril.MPGN.COM>,
"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:

>I seem to be pretty much alone in thinking that maybe some of the ideas in
>Traveller should be modernized a bit.  I don't mind being alone.

You're not alone, I aree with pretty much everything you've said,
and then some.

I completely ignore the size and program storage
restrictions stated for computers for instance, as following
those rules gives you computers that aren't much better than 
an S390.

I always thought the X-Boat network _was_ automated,
until I saw the argumets on here about it with the 
people only in the X-Boat tenders unless you needed to get
an individual across the sector in a real hurry for
some reason.

( Y'know, like how they got Tom Cruise onto the sub
  in "Hunt for Red October". I had an important and
  extremely competemt Imperial agent who absolutely
  _had_ to arrive in person on another planet in a
  very short time use his clout to get the ISS
  to place him on the Xboat network, the ISS complained
  mightily to the Navy afterwards, as him insisting
  on their sending him aliong had stuffed up their
  schedules considerably 
)



- -- 
Frankie

Frank G. Pitt | When in doubt, wash | fun:   frankie@mundens.gen.nz
Wellington    |   (Orlando)         |        frankie@paradise.net.nz 
New Zealand   |                     | profit: fpitt@nz1.ibm.com
    

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:42:16 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: Game on Mac like Trav: Escape Velocity

In article <3518284F.F220B4B@iname.com>, J-Man <j-man@iname.com> wrote:
>> Sounds a lot like Elite.  Can't remember what platform Elite started on
>> but it was ported to the PC about a decade ago.
>> 
>> Nah nah nee boo boo!
>
>
>Hahaha, I forgot about "Elite".  Been too many years.  It started on the
>Commodore-64 platform.  :)

Bzzzt, wrong!

It started on the Acorn BBC Model B, written by Acornsoft.
It was ported to the Commodore 64  and the Sinclair
Spectrum almost a year after the BBC release.


- -- 
Frankie

Frank G. Pitt | When in doubt, wash | fun:   frankie@mundens.gen.nz
Wellington    |   (Orlando)         |        frankie@paradise.net.nz 
New Zealand   |                     | profit: fpitt@nz1.ibm.com
    

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 02:02:21 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

In article <v03130300b140e205a69e@[198.120.32.22]>,
"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:58:31 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>>I admitted it raises the issue of automated cargo carriers.  To me,
>>automated cargo carriers aren't really that big of a change to the spirit
>>of Traveller.
>
>Well, for reasons I have stated before, I don't agree.


>>Now, will the PCs have ships that can jump and land themselves?  Maybe they
>>do, maybe they don't.  You can break it down to expense.  Make a ship's
>>computer that can do these things by itself very expensive.  Maybe even
>>close to the cost of the ship.  When produced en masse (Xboats and cargo
>>carriers) they're cheap, but when individually retrofitted into ships,
>>they're expensive.
>
>Well, the arguements that say they should exist also say they
>shouldn't be that expesive.  Also, who says they have to
>be retrofited?  The PCs just get them with the ship.

So they get them. Yet another system to maintain in
a 500 year-old free trader in break-even situation.

That's why we have crews, it's often cheaper to hire
an engineer for the trip than to get the complete overhaul
required to be safe without an engineer. 

And what if the standard automatics you have can only function
effictively at class A or B starports. The ILS system just does
not work when the starport is only a bare patch of rock.

Auto-Pilot :
"I'm sorry sir, but there is no starport at that location.
 I have been unable to establish a landing protocol session
 with any ground-based air traffic control systems.
 Landing aborted "

Capt Jamieson. :
"Damned automatics, 'puter, give me the helm"

Auto-Pilot :
" Certainly, sir. though according to Imperial
  Regulation SL-56 subsection 7, I am required
  to advise against manual landings, especially
  at starports that do not support STC-aided
  approaches"

Capt Jamieson. :
" Shut up and give me the stick" 



>>Yes, but this is also TL8-9 Terra.  What I was getting at was, if the PCs
>>never were on big cargo ships, especially in your campaign, then they
>>wouldn't know whether they were crewed or not.
>
>When the contact ships to arrange courses, get help, info, etc.
>they will notice if nobody answers.

Why would they ?
Starships have no need to get info or courses from other star
ships, that's what Deep Space Control is for.

And automated ships wouldn't be operating out on the fringes,
only on the regular shuttle routes.

For that matter, there's no reason why the automated ship
wouldn't be perfectly capable of responding in the same way
as human crew, though it might not be interested in small talk.

>I also makes a difference
>when the want to arrange a working passage.

If it is a passenger ship it is still going to have human crew.
If it is not a ship on a regular route, it's likley to have a
human crew.

Anyway megacorps wouldn't accept people for working passage,
too big a security risk.

> If you give it
>more than a moments thought you can come up with more
>examples.

And equally as many counter examples.

I don't mind if you don't have automated ships,
you just have to realize it's not a canon issue,
and it's not a "break background" issue, its
merely your personal preference

>>I just don't see the
>>need to make handwave after handwave when you can just say, "Hey, Marc and
>>Loren and the DGP folks never realized that we'd move ahead as fast as we
>>did in real life."
>
>Better than introducing a technology (which often is just as
>much I guess as the ones implement years ago) and then putting
>in handwaves so it doesn't break the background.

But we're not "introducing" technology, the technology has always
been there. Heck, we've got it now !.

It's an even bigger problem trying to explain to players
why something that is available _now_, on Earth, at T7 or
T8 isn't available in the Imperium at TL13

Such a huge _reduction_ in capability between modern and
far future technology "breaks background" a hell of a lot
more than allowing automated ships.

>I don't
>have problems with many things (like updating computers a
>bit), but there are few things that are central such as
>communications and PC involvement.

None of this needs to be changed by automated ships.

>I don't call automatic ships "tweaking".  It fundamentally alters
>the need to for just the kind of skills a PC is likely to
>have and the class of people they are going to interact with.

Not at all.

For instance, we have automated aircraft now.
But still most aircraft have pilots 

Introducing automated ships does _not_ mean that all ships
will be automated. It's easy to assume that no passenger
craft will be automated, because people want people looking
after them.
The only attempt to run an automated passenger
liner failed because too few people bought tickets

We have automated ground vehicles also, but few
of or groundcars are. Which is largely
through personal choice.

The skills are the same, and the people they talk to are the
same. They just do less repetitive work that can be easily
automated.

Heck, making cargo carriers automated adds lots of great
plot oppurtunities, like stowaways on automated ships.

There is pilfering on an automated ship. Players have to
find out how it's being done.

One has malfunctioned and shutdown according to the failsafes
but is now heading into a dense traffic area, so needs to be
reactivated and salvaged.



- -- 
Frankie

Frank G. Pitt | When in doubt, wash | fun:   frankie@mundens.gen.nz
Wellington    |   (Orlando)         |        frankie@paradise.net.nz 
New Zealand   |                     | profit: fpitt@nz1.ibm.com
    

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:17:27 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Canon Wars

At 02:01 PM 3/28/98 +1200, you wrote:
>In article <1.5.4.32.19980326200847.0093e5f8@wwwjci.lanl.gov>,
>Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov> wrote:

>>There is no Canon (cannon?) better than MY Canon.
>
>You have your own personal important lay member
>of the Church of England ?

Yes.  IG shipped them out in lieu of Nobles.  Freddie is very nice, and
doesn't mind doing the dishes on his nights.
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:32:21 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: The old days

At 01:13 AM 3/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>> 
>>>numbers) matrix just to calculate the ships attempt to reach orbit....
>with
>>>nothing more that 100 year old slide rules and maybe an abacus....
>>
>
>>HAH!  You had such high tech equipment!  We had to MAKE our OWN slide rule
>>out of STICKS and an ABACUS!  We'd have given anything for an ABACUS! 

>Sticks ! Sticks!! All of our sticks were used for fire wood and would not
>waste them to make slide rules.
>
>
>Ha ! I remember a game when our slide rules were frozen and we removed our
>legs from the knees down made notched in the bone and used our bone marrow
>for filling in the notches so we could calculate.

You had bones?  Luxury!  I had to wait for multicellular life to arise
before we could start playing, and then nobody brought munchies.

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry   dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/    |
|--------------------------------------|
| "Oscar Wilde only wishes he was this |
|  gay!"        -Crow T. Robot, MST3K  |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 08:03:20 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller: Methodology

At 12:43 PM 3/28/98 +1200, you wrote:

>For me its (warning long list follows):
>
>>Authors:

>the guy who did   ( Honor Harrington)

David Weber.  Read some of his other stuff, as he is one of the best
Traveller-ish writers I know.

>Larry Niven       ( Known Space, especially Man-Czin war)

Minor nit: It's Kzin.

I'd add
Orson Scott Card (the Ender Trilogy)
Anne McCaffrey (Crystalsinger and the Ship series)
??? (Pride of Chanur)
David Feintuch (Midshipman's Hope, et al.)
Robert Heinlein (too many to mention)
Issac Asimov (Foundation series)
Hal Clement (Mission of Gravity, et al.  Great hard SF)
Mike Stackpole (BattleTech novels.  I know, but he has a grasp of intrigue
that's wonderful, and his characters are great.)
Arthur C. Clarke (too many to mention)

Note:  No, Craig, I haven't gotten a hold of Ian Banks yet.  Amazon has
most of his stuff on back order, and my local Brentano's thinks that Marvel
comics are SF.  Send a couple up with Norrie, I'll ship them back when I'm
done.

>>Movies and TV:
>>
Star Cops 
Reality shows (COPS, LAPD, etc.) good sources for police procedure and odd
situations.
James Burke's Connections and The Day the Universe Changed
NOVA
Anything on the Discovery Channel

>Music :

The Grateful Dead
Soundtracks from SF movies
Vangelis
The 1812 Overture (for writing under deadlines..)

>>So now I need to ask you TMLer friends of mine
>>these questions...
>
>>How do you remind yourself it's only a game?

By keeping an even keel.  When we're playing, it's for fun.  So if we get a
bit off-topic, or silly, I'm not going to scream and rant.  I will say that
before I got cancer I was much worse about this, insisting that "ve must
play zee game, and ze game vill be played!."  But I have a much different
attitude towards life in general now.

>>How do you make it fun for your players?... not yourselves because your
>>enjoyment comes from developing, authoring and running your universe.
>
>By getting them involved in the setting.

And by making sure that they are interested in the type of campaign I have
planned.  I have friends who love to play, but hate the type of games I run
(merchant/intrigue), so rather than ruin the game for everyone, I just let
them know that the game isn't really their speed.  I do use those guys for
NPC's on occasion.

>>What made your sessions work
>
>player involvement
>real emotions.  

A loaded .45 behind the Referee screen.  :)

>>and more importantly, where did you fail?

I sometimes try to railroad my players.  I should be more subtle about
getting them on track, but that's something I need to work on.

>Hi Eric, my name's Frankie, and I'm a Traveller GM....

Hi Frankie!
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:14:02 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: G:T

Semo said:

>Wow, I feel at the very least, somewhat vindicated.  As far as the
>out-of-control nanites...  Have you been reading my campaign notes without
>telling me Mr. Wiseman?  :^)

I don't think so. Do you keep your campaign notes in my desk? : )

>>  PS: Portions of the G: T book should begin to be available on the SJG website
> over the weekend. 
>
>What's the deal with this?  Is the access free, must it be paid for, is it
>earned?  Etc...

You know, I'm not really sure. I think a minor subscription fee is required,
but I'm not sure. The main SJG web page is free, and that explains it all.

www.sjgames.com

My plan was to post sections of the non-rules stuff here (as I figured the TML
would not be the best place to discuss the mechanics of the GURPS system). 

> A question, were the Freak Brothers a big influence on Traveller in the
> early days?  :^)

Not so's you'd notice...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 09:10:55 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Any doctors out there?

>Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 01:34:52 -0600
>From: eldwyn@juno.com
>Subject: Any doctors out there?
>
>As many have noticed, I'm sure, doctors seem to play a significant role
>in many of the more popular SF shows: ST and all its en carnations, B5,
>etc.
>
>How about in real life? Or, how about IYTU? Do military doctors really
>have the same influence on ship-board policies and decisions? I imagine
>their main purpose on TV is to provide the "All life is precious" and
>"Killing is wrong" slants to balance the other characters.
>
>Has anybody else thought about this, or is it just me?
>
>

I'm an Army aviator.  I can't speak for the Navy about shipboard roles, but
the flight surgeon in every unit I've ever been in was a *very* important
character, even if a pain in the, uhmm,  neck:

"Flu shots, everybody!  Yes, you'll all be grounded for 48 hours.  What?
Oh, I suppose we could do them on a Friday, if you all promise to show up."

"No, you are not flying on that knee, and that's final.  Next time, let the
twenty-year-olds have the basketball court without challenging for it."

"Colonel, if you fly the men any more without a rest you won't have to
worry about enemy ADA, because they will start killing themselves."

The ones that I have known over the years have been consummate
professionals who took their medical role very seriously.  They were not,
however, at all ignorant of the business we are in - breaking things and
killing people - and worked hard at not interfering with operations.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:22:19 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: The old days

- -----Original Message-----
From: dberry@hooked.net <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, March 28, 1998 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: The old days



>You had bones?  Luxury!  I had to wait for multicellular life to arise
>before we could start playing, and then nobody brought munchies.
>


Ah, munchies! Why, I remember the day we discovered munchies! Uhgh, ( an
excellent player and part time GM) accidently threw his 6 sided rocks too
hard and knocked over a curious dino. Naturally it fell into the fire we
were useing to try and read the cave drawing charts we'd made in an attempt
to figure the actual use for Jump "fuel". Well, needless to say it fried to
a crisp and munchies were born!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 10:13:53 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #322

On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Peter L. Berghold wrote:

> At 04:42 PM 3/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >> 
> >numbers) matrix just to calculate the ships attempt to reach orbit.... with
> >nothing more that 100 year old slide rules and maybe an abacus....
> >
> 
> HAH!  You had such high tech equipment!  We had to MAKE our OWN slide rule
> out of STICKS and an ABACUS!  We'd have given anything for an ABACUS! 

Posh...YOU had STICKS! We had to get up a half-hour before we went to bed,
invent numbers, language and writing, hand carve our notes into SOLID
rock, and used real weapons to role play combat!

But you tell kids that these days...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:13:59 -0500
From: John Toth <jtoth@erols.com>
Subject: RE: canon vs. Canon

- -------------------->
( Y'know, like how they got Tom Cruise onto the sub
  in "Hunt for Red October". I had an important and
  extremely competemt Imperial agent who absolutely
  _had_ to arrive in person on another planet in a
  very short time use his clout to get the ISS
  to place him on the Xboat network, the ISS complained
  mightily to the Navy afterwards, as him insisting
  on their sending him aliong had stuffed up their
  schedules considerably
- -------------------->


I Don't Think Tom Cruise was in "Hunt for Red October".

A better pick might be Star Trek. The Show where the Klingons Stuck Worf's 
wife (ex-, girl ? ) in the Torpedo Case and shot her to the Link-up site.

John

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 10:19:51 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: (un)canon Kinunir

Babelfish...what is this Babelfish? 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:42:02 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: (un)canon Kinunir

It is a life form that feeds on brain waves, and as a result can translate
any language into an understandable for to anyone who puts one in their
ear.

	From A Hitchhikers Guid To The Galaxy by Douglas Adams.

- ----------
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: (un)canon Kinunir
> Date: Saturday, March 28, 1998 11:19 AM
> 
> Babelfish...what is this Babelfish? 
> 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 10:46:07 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

At 03:40 AM 3/28/98 -0900, Peter Newman wrote:
>
>
>I would suggest that the Imperial ID card has an Imperial ID number on
>it.  This number appears (in slightly raised numbers) across the left
>two thirds of the top of your card, above your name and other data, and
>to the left of your photo.  I think that the Imperial ID number on it
>will come in this format:
>
>        XX NLN NLN NLN NLN
>
>Where XX is a standard two letter abrieviation for the Sector you were
>born in, such as SM for the Spinward Marches.  Every single sector the
>Imperium has ever heard of, not just those actually in the Imperium, has
>a standard abreviation (those poor souls who do not know where they were
>born will be given a card w XX on it if the Imperium can't figure it out
>either.)
>
This is a very good idea indeed. I had originally envisioned a single
letter designating a sector, but two letters make this much more
descriptive without over-lengthening the string. After revision, IMTU the
ID string starts something like:

     LLSxxxx-

Where LL stands for the two-letters designating a sector, and S in the
letter of the subsector (A - P). The next for digits come directly from the
hex number of the world as listed in the sector index. While including
subsector with sector hex may be somewhat redundant, it does allow a person
to recognize at a glance what part of space the bearer originates from.

>NLN stands for number, letter, number such as 5A3.  Each 3 letter
>combination will have 2600 combinations in it (more if your version of
>Traveller canon assumes that the Imperium uses the Vilani script not the
>Roman one for Galanglic, this theory tends to be supported by art
>showing ship names, etc - I am using 2600 for simplicity).
>
Nice mathematical elegance, but my wife, who has been a data-entry clerk
has railed me at length about how painful this sort letter-number
combination is to  people who have to deal with long lists of these things
all day. Consider: a good operator enters with one hand while using the
other to flip papers. By combining letters with numbers like this the
operator has to use both hands on her keyboard rocking back and forth from
the number keys to the letters ad nauseam. This inefficiency would drive
the Newts nuts. Granted, only those operators who have to enter long
volumes of these numbers would even care, but hey. Suppose instead that one
used a three digit, simple hexadecimal combination (A-F as opposed to
expanded A-Z). The keypad could be numeric expanded by six additional keys,
the operator could employ both hands efficiently, and keep the Newt task
masters happy. Also total combinations would be 4096^4 or
281,474,967,000,000! A number sufficiently large enough to satisfy even the
most pessimistic bureaucrat for the next thousand years. 

>So 4 sets of NLN combinations will produce 2600 ^ 4 or
>45,697,600,000,000 possible ID combinations for _each_ sectors
>inhabitants. (If you used hexadecimal numbers rather than decimal
>numbers you would have about 25 times this many but then your
>hexadecimal numbers A through F would get mixed up with your numbers so
>I do not suggest it) This means that not just every one of the Third
>Imperiums 15 trillion inhabitants, but every inhabitant it has ever had,
>and everyone from anywhere else, can be given distinct ID numbers. 

OTOH, a ten digit hexadecimal number would allow for 16^10 or
1,099,511,628,000. Over one trillion combinations per sector. Good enough?

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:12:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Any doctors out there?

 
> How about in real life? Or, how about IYTU? Do military doctors really
> have the same influence on ship-board policies and decisions? I imagine
> their main purpose on TV is to provide the "All life is precious" and
> "Killing is wrong" slants to balance the other characters.
> 
> Has anybody else thought about this, or is it just me?
 
My wife is a surgeon, and her dad is as well. He was surgeon on the
Intrepid and said that most of his business was antibiotics after
Liberty ports :-)

A lot of medical crap on TV SF is pretty dopey. In recent B5, for
example: Ivonova's medical condition made no sense. She would either
be OK, or dead, but not a trauma that would somehow give her d"days
or weeks to live." What could it be but infection? Even missing
organs would be a transplant problem, but not the languish in bed
and take a while to die to move the plot along. This is typical of
SF medical problems (I won't even go into the rank idiocy of Star
Trek medicine).

Damara comments on this while watching TV the same way I get bent 
out of shape about the physics problems :-) So I get to hear about
all the medical crap on any SF I watch in some detail.

As fpor the "killing is wrong" aspect, I think that the SF doctors
didn't do a residency in an urban hospital :-) If they did their
baseline might be more like "you woke me up again, and it was just
to treat this alien scumbag that was trying to kill us a couple
hours ago? I'll look at him if he's alive in the morning." 

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:15:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Desktop Theme...

 
> Like I said earlier, I made an attempt to make the graphics, and it was
> unimpressive. I DID manage to make a Imperial Sunburst icon and a
> Shattered Imperial Sunburst icon, which someone suggested as a
> Recycle/Trash bin icon...but I tried to make a Scout/Courier icon and
> failed pretty badly.
> 
> If anyone would like to work on this mini-project with me, please email
> me. Thanks!

I just use the Tom Lane Planet Class cruiser that is on Dave
Golden's site as my background screen on my mac. Looks nice on a
big ass monitor :-) I changed my desktop icons into things that
blend ibetter with the space background (missiles, planets, etc).

- -Merrick 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #330
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 28 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 331



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller: Methodology
Re: G:T
Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5
Those were the days....
Re: Traveller Desktop Theme...
Re: Traveller:  Methodology
Re: Military protocol question...
Re: Islands Cluster
Re: Traveller Hero
Re: OK, here goes nuttin
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Re: The old days
Ordering The Traveller Chronicle
Games People Play: Sekhoma
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #330
Re: Imperial ID
Thought you'd want to know...
Re: Games People Play: Sekhoma

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 20:57:01 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Traveller: Methodology

On 28 Mar 98, dberry@hooked.net disseminated foul capitalist 
propaganda by writing:

<snip>
> Orson Scott Card (the Ender Trilogy)
Particularly the first one. 
<snip>
 
> Note:  No, Craig, I haven't gotten a hold of Ian Banks yet.  Amazon
> has most of his stuff on back order, and my local Brentano's thinks

Banks' Culture books are a good way of showing your players why one 
doesn't want AI in Traveller. ;>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    Go ahead, jump. 100,000 lemmings can't all be wrong.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 15:23:24 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: G:T

> I don't think so. Do you keep your campaign notes in my desk? : )

Y'know, I was wondering where they'd gotten off to...  :^)

> You know, I'm not really sure. I think a minor subscription fee is required,
> but I'm not sure. The main SJG web page is free, and that explains it all.
> 
> www.sjgames.com

Yes, I've checked it out and they've acquired a new subscriber (based
heavily on the GURPs Trav stuff, but it also looks like an otherwise
excellent magazine and service.  One I'm happy to support even).

> > A question, were the Freak Brothers a big influence on Traveller in the
> > early days?  :^)
> 
> Not so's you'd notice...

I guess that explains why there was no "Fat Freddie's Cat Class Close Escort"...

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 13:38:20 -0600
From: "Chris Miller" <ironstar@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5

>> (Yeah, yeah, yeah...I can think of a number of ways this thing can be
>> spoofed right off the bat, too...a $29 radar detector would tell you
>> you're being probed, and jamming it wouldn't be all that much harder.)
>
>Sounds like pretty standard millimeter wave radar. They are also
>talking about using van mounted units to "see" thru the walls of
>houses.
>
>Of course the current trend to use foil backed fiberglass insulation
>tends to render it pretty useless. :-)


- ---------> Anyone with a stucco house using a mesh framework is pretty well
shielded too.

Chris Miller

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 19:49:33 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Those were the days....

We played for whole days at a stretch, the action broken up only when
someone called 'club break' and we popped out to set a mammoth ambush. Or
fought off the D&D players in the next cave. Hah! We soon out-evolved THEM!

Rumour hath it I haven't seen inside a rulebook since the last
interglacial, but that's players for you. Always snivelling!

Nowadays they want rules for EVERYTHING! Not like in my day.. 

' ...and if anyone thinks I'm wrong, knock me down and YOU can be ref!'

Pah. Wimps!

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 14:45:11 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Desktop Theme...

> I just use the Tom Lane Planet Class cruiser that is on Dave
> Golden's site as my background screen on my mac. Looks nice on a
> big ass monitor :-) I changed my desktop icons into things that
> blend ibetter with the space background (missiles, planets, etc).
> 
> -Merrick 

	Where is this site?
 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 10:07:11 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller:  Methodology

At 09:53 AM 27/03/98 -0700, Eric T. Holmes wrote:
>Fellow Travellers:
>
>Ya know, Chris Seamens got me to thinking....Oh, Oh.  Eric's thinking
again....
>
>What has affected the way I developed my ideas of the Traveller universe?
>
>Authors:
>
>Asimov, Bradbury, and Clarke
>Heinlein,  the early books..Space Cadet, Between Planets, etc.
>Andre Norton, her early works
>Carl Sagan
>Michael Chrichton  (SP?)
>Harlan Ellison

C.J. Cherryh - Downbelow Station, etc
E.C. Tubb - The Dumarest novels
Poul Anderson - The Flandry books, his Nicolas van Rijn and David Falkayn
stories
Lois McMaster Bujold - All her Scifi
Iain Banks - Though as someone else said his Culture novels are a fine
example of why AI would be bad for Traveller.
Larry Niven
Jerry Pournelle
David Drake - Hammer's Slammers mainly
William C Dietz - The Sam McCade novels
Alis a Rasmussen
H. Beam Piper - Space Vikings, especially

>What I like is a "Space Opera" playing session.  Players becoming actors of
>bigger than life characters.  What the hey!  Everyone likes an opportunity
>to "Save the Universe."  So now I need to ask you TMLer friends of mine
>these questions...

For space opera style games I usually use Space Master - its got all those
neat disintergrators and personal energy shields.

>How do you make it fun for your players?... not yourselves because your
>enjoyment comes from developing, authoring and running your universe.

I try to find out what sort of game they want, and then try to provide it.
The problem comes when they want something that won't fit into my wonderful
universe.

>What made your sessions work and more importantly, where did you fail?

They usually worked when they were interaction stroies or mysteries. My
games usually fail because my players are all really fantasy gamers at
heart, and if the adventure relies on an understanding of the overall
background or the technology and its capabilities and limitations the game
generally fizzles due to the players lack of knowledge in these areas. I
think that is a combination of the players not reading the meterial, and me
not making it itneresting enough. My Trav games also tend to fail if
there's too much (para)military action because I'm much better at tactics
than my players and I tend to forget this when running the opposition -
something I need to work on.


- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:34:20 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Military protocol question...

At 01:35 AM 29/03/98 +1200, Frank G. Pitt wrote:

>One slight differwnce to this in Commonmwealth
>armed forces is when referring to the top level
>NCO's such as Warrant Officers and Chief Petty Officers.
>
>While they may accept "Chief" and other rank based terms
>from commisioned officers, other ranks are expected to
>call them "Sir". The difference between WO/CPOs and
>commisioned officers is that you don't salute
>a non-commisoned officer.

This is only partialy true in the Army - of the two grades of Warrant
Officers only the top grade is addressed as "Sir", the second grade is
addressed as "Sergeant Major" even though technically only a Company
Sergeant Major really should be so addressed. This is because the WO1 (I
think) designation replaced the old British Army rank of Sergeant Major and
the NCOs refuse to forget.

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 14:34:48 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Islands Cluster

Here's a thread I meant to respond to before the latest canon debate
exploded.

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 at 09:04:58, dberry@hooked.net wrote:

>>Chris Thrash's question brought another question to mind - what happened
>>to these happy little planets?
>
>According to the Regency Sourcebook, the clusters were occupied by the
>Regency and forcibly pacified.

Inasmuch as they ever could be...

The RS writeup pointed out an angle I'd never considered:  while we TCS
players love the Islands as a ready-made arena for conflict, the Regency
looks at them a lot like the Balkans - a backwater full of petty little
one and two-world governments who've been at each other's throats for
as long as they've had Jump.  The Regency can occupy the cluster, but 
the tensions are still there, waiting to explode again.  Sobering image.

It's fun to play with fleets and admirals, not so much fun to try to
survive another day in the ruins of Sarajevo.


- --------------
Kelly St.Clair
kellys@efn.org

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:37:01 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero

In my view HERO works OK (but not great) as a system for Traveller.  
Skill-5 in Traveller becomes Skill-5 in HERO, so there is no need to 
change the "meaning" of skills.

The main problem with HERO, having used it extensively, is the use of 
STR.  If you use HERO rules, people can lift and throw enormous 
weights.  Similarlr, if you use the weapons and damag rules as they 
stand, characters take a lot of killing and PGMPs are hard to fit into 
the HERO system.  You can do all these things, but most people end up 
with a long list of house rules to cover man-to-man combat.

HERO is brilliant (IMO) if you want a "Luke Skywalker" flavour for your 
characters, but not so good if you want to have more lethal (some would 
say, more realistic) combat.

It is good to have the character progression of HERO, but buying 
characteristics with experience and weapons with money leads to some 
outlandish characters.  Because characteristics are relatively cheap in 
HERO, and players will try to by them via OAF (telescopic sights), OIF 
(power armour), IIF (nanobots in the bloodstream give regeneration) and 
so on ... and once you establish a technology reason for their "magic" 
abilities, players want to buy them with money instead of experience 
points, which leads to 1980's D&D-style escalation.  You can limit this 
somewhat with the campaign ideas in the HERO martial arts supplements, 
but it needs the right sort of players and referee to make it work long 
term.

HERO tends to encourage "power play", and power play is addictive.  
Most "addicts" hate it when you try and stop them getting an 
in-character advantage by using mere money to buy HERO abilities.




Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 15:44:01 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: OK, here goes nuttin

Generally a good explination.  It could be made a bit shorter
(deleting things about nanotechnology that don't apply to
why it is so limited in Traveller), when SJG starts bugging you
to shorten things to fit the 128 page limit (or you going to
be "special" and get 256 pages :-), you may want to keep that
in mind.

You could juice up the point about nanotechnolgoy being hard
on a setting not designed around it (heck, even Star Trek,
hardly the gods of consitent technology, have very limited
nanotechnology) and you could also mention that in a setting
with an established history (ie Traveller) this is more
of a problem.


____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 15:57:37 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

Fri, 27 Mar 1998 23:45:31 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>> >Okay, that's your way of seeing it.  Then in that case, the Megacorps are
>> >entirely stupid and would never have gotten to the size that they've gotten
>> >if every Tom, Dick and Harry with Pilot or Astrogation-1 can manage to get
>> >a working passage on their massive cash-cow cargo ships.  Megacorps should
>> >now be declared non-canon because they would never be able to survive being
>> >that stupid.

>> Again, this bears not resemblance to my arguements....

>Hold on a second here!  You say that automation would eliminate the concept
>of work passage on Megacorp cargo ships.  I said, even without automation,
>Megacorps would cover their butts so as not to be sabotaged by any group.
>This includes doing comprehensive backup checks.  You said that it would be
>too difficult for Megacorps to perform the backup checks.

Your summary is sort of accurate.  It also has little resemblence
that I can see to the idea that megacorps are stupic (unless you
want to invoke the idea that only your vision of them can be
"smart") or that not being able to do off planet background
checks means that they hire anyone with any skill level, or
that this would mean that megacorps can't exist.  None of
this follows from what I said...

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:20:26 +0100
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: The old days

> >>>numbers) matrix just to calculate the ships attempt to reach orbit....
> >with
> >>>nothing more that 100 year old slide rules and maybe an abacus....
> >>
> >
> >>HAH!  You had such high tech equipment!  We had to MAKE our OWN slide rule
> >>out of STICKS and an ABACUS!  We'd have given anything for an ABACUS!
> 
> >Sticks ! Sticks!! All of our sticks were used for fire wood and would not
> >waste them to make slide rules.
> >
> >
> >Ha ! I remember a game when our slide rules were frozen and we removed our
> >legs from the knees down made notched in the bone and used our bone marrow
> >for filling in the notches so we could calculate.
> 
> You had bones?  Luxury!  I had to wait for multicellular life to arise
> before we could start playing, and then nobody brought munchies.
And you try to tell the young gamers that... 
- -They wunt believe you!

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:57:39 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Ordering The Traveller Chronicle

I'm wondering if anyone here knows how I can go about ordering or
otherwise get a hold of the most recent issue of the Traveller Chronicle
(the one with the article on bioengineering technology and bioengineering
people). 

Many Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:28:06 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Games People Play: Sekhoma

Sekhoma is a card game known primarily in the Arcturan and Sylean
regions of known space.  It fits into the same social niche as
the Terran card game of Poker, and has many elements in common,
but the degree to which the two games are related is uncertain.
Sekhoma is played by two to six players, using a 72-card deck
consisting of six suits each with the numbers one to six repeated
twice in each suit. One player is initially designated dealer;
deal rotates through the players each hand. The objective in each
hand is to achieve the highest-ranked hand.

The dealer deals six cards face-down to each player.  Before
picking up their cards, each player antes a mutually agreed
amount (usually one or two units, where a unit is the smallest
amount of money that may be wagered on the game.  Social games
usually use a unit size of centicredits; casinos use units
ranging from one credit upward), placing it in the center of the
table.  Players are given an opportunity to examine the cards
dealt to them (which are kept concealed from the other players),
and one round of betting takes place.  The first player (the one
to the dealer's immediate left) announces "bet" or "no bet", and
if "bet" is announced, includes the amount bet, and places that
amount in the center of the table with the antes. Betting then
continues to the left, with each player having the following
options:

"Call" - The player announces "call" and places an amount equal
to all prior bets and raises in the center of the table, and
remains in the game.

"Raise" - The player announces "raise" and an amount of an
additional bet, and places an amount equal to all prior bets and
raises, plus his additional bet.  Players preceding him in the
round must immediately add the raise amount to the center of the
table, or "fold", forfeiting all monies bet during the hand.

"Fold" - The player drops out of the game for the remainder of
the deal, forfeiting any monies wagered in the hand.

After each player has had one opportunity to bet, raise, call, or
fold, the player to the dealer's left may exchange up to four
cards.  The discarded cards are placed face-down on the table,
and the dealer deals an equivalent number from the remainder of
the deck. Play proceeds to the left, with each player exchanging
up to four cards.  After all players have had the opportunity to
exchange cards,, a second round of betting occurs, following the
same rules as the first.  After all players have had the
opportunity to bet, raise, call, or fold, all hands are revealed,
and the player with the highest ranking hand collects all monies
in the center of the table.  The player to the dealer's left
becomes the dealer for the next hand.  Play continues as long as
desired.  In casino play, games are generally continuous, with
players allowed to drop out or enter at any time (provided that
no more than six are playing at any time); home play generally
allows dropping out but not joining.

Hands in Sekhoma are ranked as shown below. In case of ties, the
sum of the values of the cards that make up the scoring portion
of the hand are compared, and the higher value wins.

[Note: this is not the actual ranking of the hands; I have yet to
do the math to determine what the proper ranking should be. If
someone is good at figuring this out, I wouldn't object to seeing
him/her post the correct order.]

One Pair - the player has two cards of the same suit.
Two Pair - the player has two pairs, of different suits.
Three Pair - the player has three pairs, of different suits.
Three of a Kind - the player has three cards of the same suit.
Two Threes - the player has two three-of-a-kinds, of different
suits.
Three and a Pair - the player has a three-of-a-kind, and a pair.
Four of a Kind - the player has four cards of the same suit.
Four and a Pair - the player has a four-of-a-kind and a pair.
Five of a Kind - the player has five cards of the same suit.
Flush - the player has six cards of the same suit.
Sekhoma - the player has one card of each suit.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:27:42 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #330

Sun, 29 Mar 1998 02:02:21 +1200, frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
>>Well, the arguements that say they should exist also say they
>>shouldn't be that expesive.  Also, who says they have to
>>be retrofited?  The PCs just get them with the ship.

>So they get them. Yet another system to maintain in
>a 500 year-old free trader in break-even situation.

So you have them, but things are contrived so that PCs
never get to use them?  Too contrived for my blood.

>And what if the standard automatics you have can only function
>effictively at class A or B starports. The ILS system just does
>not work when the starport is only a bare patch of rock.

Well, again the rational for why should exist says that they
would work anywhere a PC could run the ship.  If you come
up with rationale why this isn't true, you have already laid
the groundwork for just saying it doesn't exist.

>Starships have no need to get info or courses from other star
>ships, that's what Deep Space Control is for.

And when they are passing through a system and in your way?

>And automated ships wouldn't be operating out on the fringes,
>only on the regular shuttle routes.

Like to Regina?  Which sits almost on the border?

>For that matter, there's no reason why the automated ship
>wouldn't be perfectly capable of responding in the same way
>as human crew, though it might not be interested in small talk.

Sure it could respond.  It would also be obvious what you
are talking too.

>>I also makes a difference
>>when the want to arrange a working passage.

>If it is a passenger ship it is still going to have human crew.
>If it is not a ship on a regular route, it's likley to have a
>human crew.

And if it isn't a passenger ship?

>Anyway megacorps wouldn't accept people for working passage,
>too big a security risk.

See my other post.

>> If you give it
>>more than a moments thought you can come up with more
>>examples.
>
>And equally as many counter examples.

So you keep coming up with problems and ways to patch them?
No thank you.  I don't care for a universe where a technology
supposedly exists, but then has to be contrived so that PC
never use it or are aware of it.  I say just leave it out.

>I don't mind if you don't have automated ships,
>you just have to realize it's not a canon issue,
>and it's not a "break background" issue, its
>merely your personal preference

Well, in fact if you had ships that ran on automatic the
crewing requirements (just for starters) would, in fact,
be wrong.

>>Better than introducing a technology (which often is just as
>>much I guess as the ones implement years ago) and then putting
>>in handwaves so it doesn't break the background.

>But we're not "introducing" technology, the technology has always
>been there. Heck, we've got it now !.

Well, we don't have automatic freighter carriers now.  More
to the point, you _are_ introducing it to the background.

>>I don't
>>have problems with many things (like updating computers a
>>bit), but there are few things that are central such as
>>communications and PC involvement.

>None of this needs to be changed by automated ships.

I see, when they are worring about how were to put the
ship they just have it take care of itself automatically?
I call that changing.

>For instance, we have automated aircraft now.
>But still most aircraft have pilots

Where?

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:31:48 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

"Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net> wrote

>  Peter Newman wrote:
> >
> >
> >I would suggest that the Imperial ID card has an Imperial ID number 
> >on it.  
> >  I think that the Imperial ID number on it will come in this format:
> >
> >        XX NLN NLN NLN NLN
> >
> >Where XX is a standard two letter abrieviation for the Sector you 
> >were born in


>  After revision, IMTU the
> ID string starts something like:
> 
>      LLSxxxx-
> 
> Where LL stands for the two-letters designating a sector, and S in the
> letter of the subsector (A - P). The next for digits come directly from the
> hex number of the world as listed in the sector index. While including
> subsector with sector hex may be somewhat redundant, it does allow a person
> to recognize at a glance what part of space the bearer originates from.

What advantage or goal does specifying the home planet serve ?

> 
> >NLN stands for number, letter, number such as 5A3.  Each 3 letter
> >combination will have 2600 combinations in it (more if your version of
> >Traveller canon assumes that the Imperium uses the Vilani script not the
> >Roman one for Galanglic, this theory tends to be supported by art
> >showing ship names, etc - I am using 2600 for simplicity).

> Nice mathematical elegance, but my wife, who has been a data-entry clerk
> has railed me at length about how painful this sort letter-number
> combination is to  people who have to deal with long lists of these things
> all day. Consider: a good operator enters with one hand while using the
> other to flip papers. By combining letters with numbers like this the
> operator has to use both hands on her keyboard rocking back and forth from
> the number keys to the letters ad nauseam. This inefficiency would drive
> the Newts nuts. Granted, only those operators who have to enter long
> volumes of these numbers would even care, but hey.

"Inefficency" is _exactly_ why it is done this way.  I do not want these
data entry clerks to be able to go very fast.  Most of the time the ID
number will just be directly scanned in.  On those rare occasions where
the ID number is imputed manually I want the data entry person to be
forced to go slowly to reduce the chance of error.

The Third Imperium is a _huge_ bureaucracy will tens of thousands of
times more inhabitants than any counrty on earth has ever had.  It takes
years to send messages across it.  They can not afford to have many
errors in the first place, if avoiding errors slows things down, oh
well.

Even without the widespread Vilani cultural influence it would just be
common sense to make things harder to mess up.  In my format there will
never be two numbers next to one another without a letter or a space
seperating them.

> >So 4 sets of NLN combinations will produce 2600 ^ 4 or
> >45,697,600,000,000 possible ID combinations for _each_ sectors
> >inhabitants.

> OTOH, a ten digit hexadecimal number would allow for 16^10 or
> 1,099,511,628,000. Over one trillion combinations per sector. Good enough?

No it is not.  One or more of the Third Imperiums sectors, including the
Solomani Rim, have populations of over 1 trillion.  Your system would
require duplicate ID numbers for some of these people.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 21:33:27 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Thought you'd want to know...

SJG's art director, Alain Dawson (who replaced that other guy...whatsis name)
has managed to locate Tom Peters, and chain him up in our basement. He has
agreed to draw stuff for GURPS Traveller in return for food and fresh air, and
the promise that we will let him out eventually.

<reset>

Seriously, Tom is very anxious to become the Smif of GURPS Traveller, and I'm
willing to let him try. Three more guys like him, and this game will be in
good hands, artwise. 

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 20:38:13 -0600 (CST)
From: jpettit@ix.netcom.com (Joseph Pettit)
Subject: Re: Games People Play: Sekhoma

First of all the game you describe IS poker. You just use a different 
deck.  Note that with 6 suits and 6 numbers in each suit (two times), 
the very worst hand you can get is one pair. You will have at least two 
of one suit (lest you get Sekhoma) and at least a pair of numbers (lest 
you have a straight) but it doesn't appear that the values of the cards 
have any bearing (except highest wins) its all about suits (flushes 
count but not straights). Maybe it is a bit different from poker in 
that respect.  Now you could throw in some nasty tricks about people 
playing the same suits and making a certain suit worthless if certain 
cards are played. i.e. if three people play one suit and one person 
plays a different suit but lesser hand, he wins because the first suit 
was negated by the three other players.

>One Pair - the player has two cards of the same suit.
>Two Pair - the player has two pairs, of different suits.
>Three Pair - the player has three pairs, of different suits.
>Three of a Kind - the player has three cards of the same suit.
>Two Threes - the player has two three-of-a-kinds, of different
>suits.
>Three and a Pair - the player has a three-of-a-kind, and a pair.
>Four of a Kind - the player has four cards of the same suit.
>Four and a Pair - the player has a four-of-a-kind and a pair.
>Five of a Kind - the player has five cards of the same suit.
>Flush - the player has six cards of the same suit.
>Sekhoma - the player has one card of each suit.
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #331
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, March 29 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 332



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Dutch
Victims?
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Re: Traveller Desktop Theme...
Re: Victims?
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Re: Any doctors out there?
Re: Rod Lobbers
Skill Levels
Re: Sunjamming?
Re: Traveller Hero
Re: canon vs. Canon
Re: canon vs. Canon
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Gurps Conversions
Re: Any doctors out there?
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Re: canon vs. Canon
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon
Re: Skill Levels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:09:38 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Dutch

>	And for the Netherlands the distinction is for importance, I allways
>	forget, that even if 90% of them is able to speak german, they either
>	prefer Platt (common between Netherlands and Friesland) or english,
>	but raise noses, when you use german.

About 5 years ago, the world women's softball championship was held in Normal
Illinois, where I once lived. I was standing in line at the local grocery
behind two members of the Dutch team (blonde, early 20s, very attractive --
sigh). and listening to them chat when I realized they were not speaking
English. I speak English as my first language, and had two years of college
German (I got straight Ds -- I wasn't very fluent and my accent was horrible).
Dutch is about halfway between English and German, and I could understand
about 3/4s of what they were saying. It was strange...

Bloo said:

>Edward DeVere
>(The author of the plays attributed to William Shakspear, who couldn't write
his
>own name).

Spelling things the same all the time was not something they used to get their
shorts in a knot about back in Elizabethan times. 

Lester Smith and I used to disagree over this same topic (I would not
characterize our discussions as arguments). I hold with the "Shakspere wrote
Shaksper" theory, and I also believe that Oswald did it alone and that the
Illiad and the Oddesy were not written by Homer, but by another man of the
same name who lived at the same time (doh!). 

and further asketh:
> (when will In Nomine be adapted for Traveler universe  :-)

To which I reply: On the Greek Kalends.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 20:15:25 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Victims?

>Subject: Good things that can come out of GURPS Traveller

  I just hope that it can supply more new players.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 23:15:53 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

> Your summary is sort of accurate.  It also has little resemblence
> that I can see to the idea that megacorps are stupic (unless you
> want to invoke the idea that only your vision of them can be
> "smart") or that not being able to do off planet background
> checks means that they hire anyone with any skill level, or
> that this would mean that megacorps can't exist.  None of
> this follows from what I said...

Okay, you've got this huge corporation...  Let's say Delgado, they're nice
and diverse.  They've got cargo ships being sent out from their factories
on some high population industrial world with holds full of holographic
toys.

Without even an attempt to screen pilots, astrogators or whatever, they
don't know what they're getting themselves in to.  So let's say they hire
this guy to be their astrogator.  He jumps the whole ship and crew into
deep space, on purpose because he is a member of a group that believes that
Delgado's involvement in the weapons industry is wrong.

Then we find that Interstellarms is involved in a trade war with Delgado in
another subsector.  A Delgado cargo ship hires an average Joe Schmoe pilot.
 The pilot turns out to be a plant from Interstellarms and he guns down the
crew and rendezvous with and Interstellarms astrogator and they jump
away...  never to be seen away by Delgado.

Now, one of two things will happen (as it would in real life), 1.]
Interstellarms would stay stupid and various terrorists would be attracted
to them like flies and embarass them on a constant basis.  This would, at
the very least, take a huge chunk out of Delgado's profits.  2.]
Interstellarms would wise up and begin doing comprehensive background
checks on its ship's crews.  This would mean they wouldn't just allow any
Joe Blow to climb onto their huge, cash-cow cargo ships.

I'm not trying to say that only my vision of Megacorps is the only one that
can be smart...  I'm saying that in the real world of the modern day U.S.
that background checks are extremely common.  Drug tests, credit checks,
any kind of check that a potential employer can do they will do (even if
you're just a teenager getting a job at a shopping mall food stand).  And
the stakes usually aren't quite as high as a huge cargo ship filled with
resources.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 21:20:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Desktop Theme...

Re: The cool Planet Class CAs done by Tom Lane:

> 	Where is this site?

Try: http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Artwork.html


- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 06:48:02 +0000
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Victims?

At 20:15 28/03/98 -0800, Steven Hudson wrote:
>>Subject: Good things that can come out of GURPS Traveller
>
>  I just hope that it can supply more new players.
>

Is this Cardboard Players ??




Dom

IMTU tc+ tm+ wh@(tn) t4+ ru+@ ge-@ jt++ ls st a kk-- hi+ as+ va++ da+ so+++ 
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:57:15 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

At 11:15 PM 3/28/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Okay, you've got this huge corporation...  Let's say Delgado, they're nice
>and diverse.  They've got cargo ships being sent out from their factories
>on some high population industrial world with holds full of holographic
>toys.
>
>Without even an attempt to screen pilots, astrogators or whatever, they
>don't know what they're getting themselves in to.  So let's say they hire
>this guy to be their astrogator.  He jumps the whole ship and crew into
>deep space, on purpose because he is a member of a group that believes that
>Delgado's involvement in the weapons industry is wrong.

Here is where I find your scenario breaking down.  Working passage is an
informal agreement.  "You need a drive hand, I need to get to Lanth.  Wanna
deal?"  A Delagdo Captain, running a multi-kiloton freighter, isn't going
to walk into the Starport Bar(tm) and announce "I need a pilot for a run.
I'll feed you and you can sleep in the hold."

Also, if you don't double check the guys work, or have the computer double
check what is entered with what it thinks it's destination to be.  (Could
be done by the Nav computer cross referencing with the Library program on
expected facilities at the point of arrival, vs. what the actual
coordinates are listed as having.)

<snip>

>Now, one of two things will happen (as it would in real life), 1.]
>Interstellarms would stay stupid and various terrorists would be attracted
>to them like flies and embarass them on a constant basis.  This would, at
>the very least, take a huge chunk out of Delgado's profits.  2.]
>Interstellarms would wise up and begin doing comprehensive background
>checks on its ship's crews.  This would mean they wouldn't just allow any
>Joe Blow to climb onto their huge, cash-cow cargo ships.

You are a Captain.  Your astrogator has just been thrown in jail.  You have
a contract to fulfil.  If you miss the delivery window, you stand to pay
fines in excess of what you make in a year, and the company will can your
butt.  Do you: a: go through the lengthy hiring process, or b: find
somebody who can do the job and wants off the rock he's on?

>I'm not trying to say that only my vision of Megacorps is the only one that
>can be smart...  I'm saying that in the real world of the modern day U.S.
>that background checks are extremely common.

As a former security worker, might I say that even with all the checks
crooks still get through?  Everex, a company I guarded while working for
Pinkerton, almost went bankrupt because it's line employees were stealing
everything from office supplies to entire computers!  (Note:  Iwas on the
grave shift, and had little contact with workers.  This was not my problem.)
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:46:10 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Any doctors out there?

At 12:12 PM 3/28/98 -0700, you wrote:

>My wife is a surgeon, and her dad is as well. He was surgeon on the
>Intrepid and said that most of his business was antibiotics after
>Liberty ports :-)
>
>A lot of medical crap on TV SF is pretty dopey. In recent B5, for
>example: Ivonova's medical condition made no sense. She would either
>be OK, or dead, but not a trauma that would somehow give her d"days
>or weeks to live." What could it be but infection? 

Umm, if I may?  I first manifested my cancer by having a spectacular
seizure.  In nine days at one of the leading hospitals in California, I had
seven different AIDS tests (all negative), visits from every type of
specialist but OB/GYN (each of which was convinced my problem lay inside
their speciality), and an endless battery of tests.

In the end, all they knew was that I had an unusually low platelet count.

Four *weeks* later, and hemo/oncologist, in the first five minutes of his
first exam of me, discovered that my spleen was huge, and needed immediate
removal.  That spleen was the largest ever removed from a living patient at
Stanford, and the biopsy revealed Stage IV Hodgkin's Disease.

The point of this little screed is that given a medical mystery, many
doctors will either go for the most obvious answer (a bisexual, skinny, man
with screwed up blood levels= AIDS), or look for a solution that fights
their particular focus.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "I'm just like anybody else, I want |
|  to be a non-conformist too."       |
|                      -Lenny Bruce   |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 03:27:02 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Re: Rod Lobbers

Just wanted to let you guys know that the Rod Lobbers went over VERY big in
my game tonight.

They do not recoil due to "Alien Technology". The PC's are planning to buy
huge lost of them and sell them through out the Spinward Marches. They
immediately thought of using them in Zero-G. Look out!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 03:32:55 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Skill Levels

Is there an official description of skill levels in Traveller ( CT or T4 )
?

I have some new guys with low skills like 1's and 2's who were getting
ticked that the work that they had done to modify the ship or devices did
not work after other people came in with higher skills to "make sure" that
the was secure for an important NPC negotiator.

The NPC "security sweepers" undid the plans of lower skilled PC's. Thus
saving the important NPC from technological harm.

I want to show them a list of what certain skill levels can and can not do.

Your help would certainly be appreciated.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:12:58 +0100
From: TGL <marc.davison@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Sunjamming?

> >I spent my weekend designing StarSystems and kinda got hooked on the
> >idea of Sunjamming - you know, sun sails as a means of transportation
> >between a TL8 World (pop3) and its moon (pop8). The distance between the
> >two is only a few hundred thousand klicks, so it could be viable means
> >of transportation. If not, well, this SF afer all, isn`t it?
> 
> >Anyway, I remember having seen an article about sun sails in Challenge.
> >Do you happen to know which one?

You can find Solar sails in FFS1(TNE)

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:09:20 +1000 (EST)
From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero

On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Simon Early wrote:

> In my view HERO works OK (but not great) as a system for Traveller.  
> Skill-5 in Traveller becomes Skill-5 in HERO, so there is no need to 
> change the "meaning" of skills.

 <snip>
 
> HERO is brilliant (IMO) if you want a "Luke Skywalker" flavour for your 
> characters, but not so good if you want to have more lethal (some would 
> say, more realistic) combat.

Hmmm, you could try the FUZION system. It's fully scalable by the ref and
doesn't have  a skill/stat imbalance like TNE & T4. FUZION (for those who
don't know) is a merger of HERO and Interlock (cyberpunk system), and can
convert fairly easily between two.

					Dave M.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:26:23 -0600
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:08:41 -0500 "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> writes:
>So automate the damned things.  The Xboat network is Canon, with a big 
>C. 
>That means that the Xboat network is important to a 3I campaign and
>shouldn't be changed lest you lose the flavor of Traveller.  That's 
>fine. 
>A manned Xboat is canon with a small c.  Someone came up with it (I 
>think
>in this case Marc Miller?), it seemed like a good idea at the time, 
>but it
>doesn't hold up just 20 years later.  There's nothing wrong with that. 

I agree.  Now if you're on the fence about this (like it, but you want to
make sure to retain the history of the game) roll out this technological
improvement a little at a time.

(1) It would probably cost a lot to "overnight" go from manned ships to
fully automated ships.

(2) A transition period would allow you to have some xboat routes using
manned and some using fully automated.  Manned ships can be replaced a
few at a time dependent on the economy.

Speaking of economy, just how rich is the Imperium supposed to be?  With
it spread out so thin, maintaining  a huge military, etc.  Some of the
"lack of technology" available could be due to a lack of funds.


Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:21:04 -0600 (CST)
From: jpettit@ix.netcom.com (Joseph Pettit)
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

You wrote: 
>
>On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:08:41 -0500 "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> writes:
>>So automate the damned things.  The Xboat network is Canon, with a big 
>>C. 
>>That means that the Xboat network is important to a 3I campaign and
>>shouldn't be changed lest you lose the flavor of Traveller.  That's 
>>fine. 
>>A manned Xboat is canon with a small c.  Someone came up with it (I 
>>think
>>in this case Marc Miller?), it seemed like a good idea at the time, 
>>but it
>>doesn't hold up just 20 years later.  There's nothing wrong with that. 
>
>I agree.  Now if you're on the fence about this (like it, but you want to
>make sure to retain the history of the game) roll out this technological
>improvement a little at a time.
>
>(1) It would probably cost a lot to "overnight" go from manned ships to
>fully automated ships.
>
>(2) A transition period would allow you to have some xboat routes using
>manned and some using fully automated.  Manned ships can be replaced a
>few at a time dependent on the economy.
>
I'd like to add that it could be mixed.  Maybe a larger manned ship is 
sent weekly while jump torps are sent on a daily basis.  Due to the random 
time in jump (+/- 1 day), there could be a backlog in jump torps.  The 
manned ship could collect the backlog and transport it back to base (the 
message torps are only 4 dtons each (less actually). A two day delay in 
message torps would indicate a problem which you'd want to send a manned 
expedition to resolve (although, I'd send a scout for that not an x-boat)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:25:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

Snip of Chris' depiction of misjumping astrogators...

Except for the minor point that someone working passage like you describe
would _never_ be in a command position, like pilot or astrogator...working
passage on a big megacorp merchant ship will involve things like third
relief subassitant engineer or vending machine technician third class. The
really important positions will be filled with regular employees.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 10:37:15 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Gurps Conversions

Ok, all this talk abou using GURPS rules ....
I don't have any problems with the Trav rules (I've only played CT 
and T4).  What I want to know is, does anyone convert any of the 
GURPS stuff to Traveller's rules?  Instead of the other way around?  
There seems to be some good material from GURPS that might be useful 
in my campaigns.
James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 10:42:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Any doctors out there?

 
> >A lot of medical crap on TV SF is pretty dopey. In recent B5, for
> >example: Ivonova's medical condition made no sense. She would either
> >be OK, or dead, but not a trauma that would somehow give her d"days
> >or weeks to live." What could it be but infection? 
> 
> The point of this little screed is that given a medical mystery, many
> doctors will either go for the most obvious answer (a bisexual, skinny, man
> with screwed up blood levels= AIDS), or look for a solution that fights
> their particular focus.

Wow. I hope once they figured it out all has gone well since.

I agree that if you have a hammer, problems look like nails. I'm
aware that as a surgeon my wife has a focus on cutting as well. That
said, in B5, Ivonova was a surgical patient (trauma) not a medical
one--and should have been. 

My point was that in the case of Ivonova she was dying of her
injuries, not some prexisting medical condition. In this particular
case they had her awake enough to say the right stuff on camera,
yet mysteriously mortally wounded. This was a little goofy according
to my medical source. I claim no medical knowlege other than what I
get by osmosis. The obvious mode for a mortal wound that would take
a while is radiation, but the rest of the bridge would have suffered
equally. (or close, anyway)

Regards,

Merrick 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:23:14 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon

> Here is where I find your scenario breaking down.  Working passage is an
> informal agreement.  "You need a drive hand, I need to get to Lanth. 
Wanna
> deal?"  A Delagdo Captain, running a multi-kiloton freighter, isn't going
> to walk into the Starport Bar(tm) and announce "I need a pilot for a run.
> I'll feed you and you can sleep in the hold."

I just don't think it'll be as prevalent 4,000 years in the future as it
was a few hundred years ago in real life.

> Also, if you don't double check the guys work, or have the computer
double
> check what is entered with what it thinks it's destination to be.  (Could
> be done by the Nav computer cross referencing with the Library program on
> expected facilities at the point of arrival, vs. what the actual
> coordinates are listed as having.)

Then you have starship automation.  If the computer is good enough to check
the human's work to make sure that it's right...

> You are a Captain.  Your astrogator has just been thrown in jail.  You
have
> a contract to fulfil.  If you miss the delivery window, you stand to pay
> fines in excess of what you make in a year, and the company will can your
> butt.  Do you: a: go through the lengthy hiring process, or b: find
> somebody who can do the job and wants off the rock he's on?

Again.  You are Delgado.  You have a ship with a cargo worth in excess of
say Cr100,000,000 (a made up number).  Do you allow the captain of such a
ship the ability to hire and risk that Cr100,000,000 + the value of the
ship + any investment you've made in training these people with your ships?

> As a former security worker, might I say that even with all the checks
> crooks still get through?  Everex, a company I guarded while working for
> Pinkerton, almost went bankrupt because it's line employees were stealing
> everything from office supplies to entire computers!  (Note:  Iwas on the
> grave shift, and had little contact with workers.  This was not my
problem.)
> --

Sure.  Crooks still do get through...  But they get through in less numbers
then they would without the checks.  I just think when you're dealing with
interstellar trade on a vast scale like this, there are certain things they
would do and certain things they wouldn't.

Maybe the big corps go through "spacing companies" autonomous corporations
who check and hire individuals to fill such positions as needed.  The
spacing companies have their reputations to look out for so they check
thoroughly, and when a ship is passing through and needs crewmembers they
can look to this company to see who's on world at that time.

I am not a big believed in working passage, at least not on ships of above
a certain size.  Not in a role-playing sense (I would never split one of my
party members from the rest of the group) or in the realistic sense.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:32:07 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

> Snip of Chris' depiction of misjumping astrogators...
> 
> Except for the minor point that someone working passage like you describe
> would _never_ be in a command position, like pilot or
astrogator...working
> passage on a big megacorp merchant ship will involve things like third
> relief subassitant engineer or vending machine technician third class.
The
> really important positions will be filled with regular employees.

Then what the hell's the point of a working passage from a roleplaying
standpoint?  Originally, I said automating big cargo ships didn't really
have too much of an effect on the PCs.  David Summers (I believe, please
correct me if I'm wrong) stated that this would eliminate the need for PC
skills...  And eliminate adventure possibilities like working passage.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:27:21 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

At 11:26 AM 27/03/98 -0600, Vic wrote:

>Speaking of economy, just how rich is the Imperium supposed to be?  With
>it spread out so thin, maintaining  a huge military, etc.  Some of the
>"lack of technology" available could be due to a lack of funds.

I once did a quick back of an envelope type analysis of an average
subsector's naval budget in TCS and came to the conclusion that the
Imperium's military is not superlarge for their size and wealth.

Maybe someone's done a more careful analysis could enlighten us further.

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:37:09 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

At 01:32 PM 3/29/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Then what the hell's the point of a working passage from a roleplaying
>standpoint?  Originally, I said automating big cargo ships didn't really
>have too much of an effect on the PCs.  David Summers (I believe, please
>correct me if I'm wrong) stated that this would eliminate the need for PC
>skills...  And eliminate adventure possibilities like working passage.

Working passage is mostly on the small free traders.  Look, I could go to
alaska and just by asking around, get work on a fishing boat.  I could not
just walk up to the Captain of the QE II and ask if he needed help.  The
big corps probably have strict rules against hiring temporary help without
company approval, and any megacorp will have at least an agent on each
world visited by the frieghter to assist the Captain with any problems,
like replacement crewmembers.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "I'm just like anybody else, I want |
|  to be a non-conformist too."       |
|                      -Lenny Bruce   |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:47:25 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon

At 01:23 PM 3/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Here is where I find your scenario breaking down.  Working passage is an
>> informal agreement.  "You need a drive hand, I need to get to Lanth. 
>>Wanna  deal?"  A Delagdo Captain, running a multi-kiloton freighter, isn't 
>>going to walk into the Starport Bar(tm) and announce "I need a pilot for
a >>run.  I'll feed you and you can sleep in the hold."
>
>I just don't think it'll be as prevalent 4,000 years in the future as it
>was a few hundred years ago in real life.

You seem to subscribe to the "Things to Come" school.. in the future, all
things will be bright and easy.  Lovely thought, but lousy role-play.

Since Traveller uses a universe where each planet is self governing, and
free traders can make a living, there will always be a need for quick
replacements.  Trust me, I'm a professional driver, and you wouldn't
believe the people we hire based on their DMV printout.. we later learn
they have a clean record simply because nobody ever caught them.

>> Also, if you don't double check the guys work, or have the computer double
>> check what is entered with what it thinks it's destination to be.  (Could
>> be done by the Nav computer cross referencing with the Library program on
>> expected facilities at the point of arrival, vs. what the actual
>> coordinates are listed as having.)
>
>Then you have starship automation.  If the computer is good enough to check
>the human's work to make sure that it's right...

The US Army's MLRS has an on-board computer linked to the GPS.  In theory,
all you have to do is enter the coordinates you want to hit, andf the
machine will do the rest.  In reality, the red-legs have learned the hard
way that the machine can't be trusted, and to double check.

Let's take your auto-frieghter, load it with 750 dtons of refined
lanthanum.  You send it on it's merry way towards the 100 diameter limit,
where it happily vanishes in a blink.  Three weeks later, the regional
director is in your office, screaming at you, because severla hundred
million credits of ship and cargo disapered.  You see, the computer burped,
and transposed two digets in the coordinates, but the computer thought
everything was fine.

>> You are a Captain.  Your astrogator has just been thrown in jail.  You have
>> a contract to fulfil.  If you miss the delivery window, you stand to pay
>> fines in excess of what you make in a year, and the company will can your
>> butt.  Do you: a: go through the lengthy hiring process, or b: find
>> somebody who can do the job and wants off the rock he's on?
>
>Again.  You are Delgado.  You have a ship with a cargo worth in excess of
>say Cr100,000,000 (a made up number).  Do you allow the captain of such a
>ship the ability to hire and risk that Cr100,000,000 + the value of the
>ship + any investment you've made in training these people with your ships?

We are arguing apples and oranges.  A Captain form an established line is
going to have other options.


- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:55:13 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Skill Levels

At 03:32 AM 3/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Is there an official description of skill levels in Traveller ( CT or T4 )

>I want to show them a list of what certain skill levels can and can not do.

From "Traveller: The Silly Era (http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/silytrav.html):

An example of relative skill levels

                               by The Space Bozos


In CT, Players wanted to know what capabilities came along with each skill
level. I used Vacc Suit skill as an example.

Skill Level 0 
     Character can figure out which are the arms and which are the legs.
Manages to hook up the plumbing with a minimal chance of messy errors. No
meaningful repairs or maintenance possible. Took a Vacc Suit
familiarization seminar (1 day) at the local Hilton. 

Skill Level 1 
     Plumbing fixtures are recognized as the really important aspect of 
comfort in a Vacc Suit that they are. Can slap a patch on a hole. Arms vs.
Legs are no problem at all. Experienced at cleaning out vacc suits in which 
the plumbing was hooked up by a level 0 user. Took the Vacc Suit course at 
the local Technical school (got an easy credit). 

Skill Level 2 
     Can hook up plumbing so well you almost don't notice it. Stitching and 
patching is Routine.  Assigns cleaning up mistakes to level 1 newbies. Can 
make a vacc suit with the proper materials and supervision. Minored in Vacc
Suit in College. 

Skill Level 3 
     Plumbing can be used as a sexual aid. Knows all the tricks of messy 
clean ups (just reverse the vacuum system so...oops, sorry Jack!). Can make a 
Vacc suit with some non-standard materials. Has a B.S. in Vacc Suit
Techhnology. 

Skill Level 4 
     Plumbing can be an ecstatic experience. Can make a vacc suit with 
Improvised materials like Rubber Gloves, Glass fishbowls, Condoms, Super 
Polydent, Final Net hairspray, a seltzer bottle, reflective Duct Tape, etc. 
Has gone to Vacc Suit Graduate School and been in the Vacc suit industry. 

Skill Level 5 
     A true Demi-God of Vacc Suit technique. Occasionally hooks people up to 
vacc suits for a fee (Vacc Gigolo). Teaches at Vacc Suit University. Can make 
an improvised Vacc Suit with a case of condoms (ribbed, Lubricated), a jar of 
KY Jelly and several rolls of Duct Tape. Can make you a tailored vacc suit 
that looks like a Gold Lame dress. 

Skill Level 6 
     Vacc Suits are this person's Life. There are still people hooked up to 
the plumbing by this person in a comatose orgasmic state. Runs Vacc Suit 
University. Always wears a vacc suit (although you'd never know it). Can 
improvise a Vacc Suit with One condom, One Roll of Duct Tape, and a jar of KY 
Jelly. Makes Sector-wide Fashion news with their daring new Vacc Suit
designs. 


- --
+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #332
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 30 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 333



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller Hero
Sources
Re: An idea...
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #322
Re: Gurps Conversions
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)
Re: Traveller: The Game System.
Re: Sunjamming?
Re: Skill Levels
re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)
Asteroid
Re: Asteroid
Clever Criminals (was re: Imperial ID's)
Re: (un)canon Kinunir
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon
Ancients
Re: Clever Criminals (was re: Imperial ID's)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:31:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero

On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Simon Early wrote:

> In my view HERO works OK (but not great) as a system for Traveller.  
> Skill-5 in Traveller becomes Skill-5 in HERO, so there is no need to 
> change the "meaning" of skills.
> 
> The main problem with HERO, having used it extensively, is the use of 
> STR.  If you use HERO rules, people can lift and throw enormous 
> weights. 

I agree, 100 kg lifting STR is probably a stretch, but a "normal" man is
supposed to be able to lift his own weight (though I can't, I'm out of
shape ;). 

> Similarlr, if you use the weapons and damag rules as they 
> stand, characters take a lot of killing and PGMPs are hard to fit into 
> the HERO system. 

Superheroes maybe, but not "normals" of any flavor or power level.  A good
high energy weapon is probably a 4d6 E RKA AP plus an Explosion of lesser
strength (maybe 2d6K).

A 1d6-1 RKA can kill a "normal" human in one shot when using hit
locations.  Even a 9mm Parabellum does more than 1d6 K. 

> You can do all these things, but most people end up 
> with a long list of house rules to cover man-to-man combat.

I think that here we get into the same thing that people complain about in
GURPS.  There are lots of rules, and the GM has to pick and choose which
ones to use.  I will never claim that the Hero System is for everybody.

> HERO is brilliant (IMO) if you want a "Luke Skywalker" flavour for your 
> characters, but not so good if you want to have more lethal (some would 
> say, more realistic) combat.

I agree with the former assertion, and disagree with the latter, by the
examples stated above (all IMHO).

> It is good to have the character progression of HERO, but buying 
> characteristics with experience and weapons with money leads to some 
> outlandish characters. 

Wholeheartedly agreed.

> Because characteristics are relatively cheap in 
> HERO, and players will try to by them via OAF (telescopic sights), OIF 
> (power armour), IIF (nanobots in the bloodstream give regeneration) and 
> so on ...

Yes, that's why I try to keep players from designing technology (points
you make below).

> and once you establish a technology reason for their "magic" 
> abilities, players want to buy them with money instead of experience 
> points, which leads to 1980's D&D-style escalation.  You can limit this 
> somewhat with the campaign ideas in the HERO martial arts supplements, 
> but it needs the right sort of players and referee to make it work long 
> term.

I might add that one *always* needs the right kind of players to make the
Hero System work.  It's an easy system to abuse, and every group always
seems to have at least one player who doesn't care if he ruins the game. 

> HERO tends to encourage "power play", and power play is addictive.  
> Most "addicts" hate it when you try and stop them getting an 
> in-character advantage by using mere money to buy HERO abilities.

Agreed.  Like I said, it's not for everybody.  For the situation that I'm
in now, I think that it will work pretty well.

I wouldn't even bother to model a lot of Traveller technology directly in
Hero.  Rather, I'd just work out damage and armor conversions where
appropriate.  I ran several sci-fi campaigns in Hero (one successful
heroic, one failed superheroic) with tech designed from the ground up, but
not all of it will fit into the Traveller background.

If people are interested in some deck plans done in 2 m hexes, I might be
able to GIFfify some of mine (I've got something like 3 or 4 ships done
this way).  They don't have the big jump fuel tanks, though, and I'm not
sure that the bay weaponry or implied component volumes fits the Traveller
model perfectly, although they were strongly influenced by Traveller. 


Clark


- --
"Remember, if you see a flash:  It's Duck!  And Cover!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:59:46 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Sources

>Subject: Dutch
...
>Shaksper" theory, and I also believe that Oswald did it alone and that the
...
>Loren Wiseman

  So let's see here. Someone who works for SJG, the publishers of the
"Illuminati" product line - which is about secret plots to control news,
information, and eventually the world, says that the "single-gun theory"
is the way to go. Right.

  Could be time to look into those "cigarette-holder man" rumours again.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 15:17:09 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: An idea...

At 02:22 pm 3/27/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I had this idea today that might be kinda cool for Traveller
players...but
>I'm not an artist, so I was wondering if anyone would be willing to
help...
>
>I was thinking about a Traveller desktop themeset for Windows 95 (or
>Mac...). You know, there are tons of these things out on the net for
>movies/tv shows/people...why not Traveller? It could be a clever marketing
>toy for IG or SJG...icons and a background. Of course, there are no "real"
>Traveller sounds, but hey...the graphics could be cool.
>
>My ideas (These are windows-centric, simply cause I'm a windows user...I'm
>sure they would be useful to Mac and Linux users as well, assming they were
>made in a format that could be converted...):
>  My Computer icon - Imperial Sunburst
>  Network Neighborhood - Scout/Courier

	XBoat, or Xboat Service logo (Poni)

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 15:38:51 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #322

At 09:33 pm 3/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 04:42 PM 3/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>> 
>>numbers) matrix just to calculate the ships attempt to reach orbit.... with
>>nothing more that 100 year old slide rules and maybe an abacus....
>>
>
>HAH!  You had such high tech equipment!  We had to MAKE our OWN slide rule
>out of STICKS and an ABACUS!  We'd have given anything for an ABACUS! 

	You had STICKS??  We had to chew off our own fingers and use the
BONES! I would have loved to have STICKS! You don't know how good you
had it ...

IMTU tc+ tm+ tn++ t4-- t4.1? tt ru+ ge+(++) 3i+ -jt+ +au- st+ ls+ kk
hi++ as+ va++ dr so++ zh- pi+

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:52:48 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Gurps Conversions

If they folow suite with the GURPS:World Of Darkness then there should be a
conversion in the back of GURPS:Traveller.

- ----------
> From: Pearson Publishing <jdpearson@wr.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Gurps Conversions
> Date: Sunday, March 29, 1998 4:37 AM
> 
> Ok, all this talk abou using GURPS rules ....
> I don't have any problems with the Trav rules (I've only played CT 
> and T4).  What I want to know is, does anyone convert any of the 
> GURPS stuff to Traveller's rules?  Instead of the other way around?  
> There seems to be some good material from GURPS that might be useful 
> in my campaigns.
> James Pearson
> jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 15:55:42 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

I don't see how automated ships in any way invalidate working passages for
PCs. 

1) They can't fully automate ships which carry passengers.  At minimum,
the high passengers will want a steward who they can actually complain to. 
Also, I'd expect that fully automated ships will not be as popular with
passengers for irrational reasons like worrying what will happen if the
systems break down "But sir, we have triple backup systems." "Yes, but
they're all machines!" 

2) Automated ships (even if allowed by Imperial law, which I'd recommend
against) will only be cargo ships.  Even here, I'd expect the automation
to only cover pilot and astrogation.  As Chris Seamans pointed out, a
megacorp is not going to let some drifter with useful skills pilot their
ship, it's too easy to come out of jump next to the drifter's pirate
friends. 

At that point, assistants, engineers, stewards, gunners (since TL 12-15
robots aren't fully sentient, having a human to help in gunnery could
provide a useful level of intuition) and similar support personnel are
much more likely to be hired on as working passage.  Well, some of these
ships may be require by law to have human backup (say one human assistant
pilot or astrogator to be on-call for all three shifts, just in case their
is a problem [this could easily be a legal requirement which the pilot's
guild will fight tooth and nail to keep]). 

As for engineers, that's a position much more difficult to automate.
Instead of a fancy computer built into the ship which calculates courses
and directs the controls, actually repairs would require a robot.  Robots
are expensive, especially versatile robots which can work inside and
outside the ship in all manner of conditions. Why not just use a human
instead, with a few specialized maintenance bots to help in specific
situations. 

X-boats don't need on-board maintenance, since they can be refitted every
jump at the tender, but other ships will need an engineer.  So, when the
rules specify that 100 ton ships can be run with a bare minimum crew of 1
means that this person is more engineer that pilot, since the computer is
doing most of the piloting (basically the one crew would be engineer and
backup pilot/astrogator). 

See, canon and high tech reality work together here :)

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:27:03 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)

"Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> wrote:

>The IMTU Code is a rip-off of the "Geek Code".  Display it on
>postings to the TML, so everyone knows where you're coming from!
>
>- -Rob
> IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

LoL!

Hang on. I've got a Mac and I have no inclination to use this clunky
Windoze style Command Line Interface. Give me a version with a nice GUI
driving a dialogue box and I'll think about it ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:30:56 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller: The Game System.

"Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> wrote:

>Can anyone recommend a fast and easy combat system?

I would seriously recommend the T4 one with T4.1 tasks. Fast, dirty and
nasty...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:56:52 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Sunjamming?

marc.davison@virgin.net wrote:
>You can find Solar sails in FFS1(TNE)

And FFS2 pg 67 and Table 169.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:52:17 EST
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Skill Levels

In a message dated 98-03-29 03:33:54 EST, you write:

<< 
 I want to show them a list of what certain skill levels can and can not do.
 
  >>
This is an indirect answer to your question.. The text below talks about S+C
(Skill + Characteristic) and what chance of success you have at various
difficulty levels. 

Associated Characteristics
	Characters vary as well in their innate abilities. No matter how skilled an
individual is (for example) in Athletics, physical endurance is also of prime
importance... and of two people with equal skill, the one with greater
endurance will more likely succeed.
	Each skill has at least one characteristic associated with it. In addition,
it is possible that unlisted characteristics may be involved in specific
skills.
	The Connect (Or Disconnect) Between Skill And Ability. Documented skill level
(Skill-2, Skill-4, etc) indicates a recognition of a specific level of
training, experience, or education within the stated skill. Because of the
relationship of skill and associated characteristic, the actual probability of
success by a character in a specific situation can be determined by S+C (Skill
+ Characteristic) on the Chance of Success table.


CHANCE OF TASK SUCCESS
		Easy	Avg	Diff	For	Sta	Hop	Imp
S+C	1D	2D	2.5D	3D	4D	5D 	6D
	1	17%	-	-	-	-	-	-
	2	33%	3%	-	-	-	-	-
	3	50%	8%	1%	<1%	-	-	-
	4	67%	17%	4%	2%	<1%	-	-
	5	83%	28%	9%	5%	<1%	<1%	-
	6	100%	42%	18%	9%	1%	<1%	<1%
	7	-	58%	29%	16%	3%	<1%	<1%
	8	-	72%	43%	26%	5%	1%	<1%
	9	-	83%	57%	38%	10%	2%	<1%
	10	-	92%	71%	50%	16%	3%	<1%
	11	-	97%	82%	63%	24%	6%	1%
	12	-	100%	91%	74%	34%	10%	2%
	13	-	-	96%	84%	44%	15%	4%
	14	-	-	99%	91%	56%	22%	6%
	15	-	-	100%	95%	66%	31%	10%
	16	-	-	-	98%	76%	40%	15%
	17	-	-	-	100%	84%	50%	21%
	18	-	-	-	-	90%	60%	28%
	19	-	-	-	-	95%	70%	36%
	20	-	-	-	-	97%	78%	45%
	21	-	-	-	-	99%	85%	55%
	22	-	-	-	-	100%	90%	64%
	23	-	-	-	-	-	94%	72%
	24	-	-	-	-	-	97%	79%
	25	-	-	-	-	-	98%	86%
	26	-	-	-	-	-	99%	90%
Add Skill (S) and characteristic (C) to read the percentage chance for success
for each difficulty level. For example Skill-5 and Characteristic-4 produces
S+C of 9. Read the probability of success at Formidable Difficulty as 38%.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 03:22:41 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)

On 30 Mar 98, SD Mooney disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by 
writing:

[snip TravGeekCode]
> LoL!
> 
> Hang on. I've got a Mac and I have no inclination to use this clunky
> Windoze style Command Line Interface. Give me a version with a nice
> GUI driving a dialogue box and I'll think about it ;-)

Windoze? Command Line? Surely you jest! I'd understand Linux or DOS, 
though. ;>

Oh, yeah, another thing for the TravGeek Code: jump drives: 

jd++ 	- I use canonical jump drives, with hydrogen injection mass 
	etc. 
jd+ 	- I use jump drives, but they use fuel as that - fuel. 
jd 	- well, I never had to explain how does the drive work to my 
	players, so I'm not sure
jd- 	- my jump drives are a bit different (say, jump-2 goes through 
	one parsec in half a week) 
jd-- 	- jump drives? I use hyperdrive/stutterwarp/wormholes/whatever

(Or one could just make a general "Heretic"code indicating the degree 
of one's hereticness, including the approach to jump drives, AI, 
high-energy weapons and other stuff. )

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  IMTU ?tc t4+ to++ ru-- ge++ !3I jt au- jd- !st ls !kk hi++ as+ !so !vi !sy say++
    How did I get so round from eating square meals?!?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:10:16 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Asteroid

Ghu, I hope I'm the only moron stupid and bored enough to sit through
this drivel ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 03:02:14 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Asteroid

On Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:10:16 -0700, you wrote:

>Ghu, I hope I'm the only moron stupid and bored enough to sit through
>this drivel ...

I quit watching after they began strafing Dallas with all the
remaining rocks from the second asteroid. Someone there must have
really gotten someone upstairs mad...

Besides, I was switching between the women's NCAA Championship game
(GO UT!) and later, the X-Files, so I didn't see the whole thing; the
multiple silly scenes (like the truck on the bridge) got diluted by
the switching channels.

John Lansford
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:53:27 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Clever Criminals (was re: Imperial ID's)

Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> yeah, like those enterprising young criminals who put a fake bank machine
> in a busy mall back East last year. If you actually tried to do anything,
> it told you it was out of cash, or that your bank wasn't talking to
> it temporarily, but they collected hundreds of bank account numbers 
> complete with PIN numbers. Something messed up, but they did get something
> like a couple of hundred grand before they were caught, and if the scam
> hadn't been interrupted, they would have gotten away with it.


I thought this was hysterical.  They got something like $60,000 (not as
much as you would expect, I guess).  They didn't get caught, but their plot
was discovered...

They may have been caught since then, but at the time they had gotten away
clean and the police said that they didn't have anything to go on.

Brilliant if you ask me :^)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

<Don Quixote mode ON>
Not so brilliant to the family that just saw all the money they had to live on
for the next two weeks vanish after dad went out at 2am to pick up some
baby aspirin. Instead of them getting diapers, groceries and medicine,
some smartass geek gets a new motherboard.

There's a difference between Slippery Jim DiGriz stealing from a corrupt 
society and some scam artists cleaning out the kind of people who use
shopping plaza ATM's. One thing the two criminal types do have in 
common, though - they could both be very successful at helping people
instead of hurting them.

DiGriz (The Stainless Steel Rat) is one of my literary heroes because
(whether he wants to or not) he does just that. Thank you, Harry Harrison!


Walt Smith
<Don Quixote mode off>

ObTrav: The PC's find out that all the ship payments they've made for
the past six months have been applied to a rival Free Trader's debt instead
of their own. They have to dodge the Repo men long enough to find out 
which inside man got bribed - or which hacker the rival hired, and how the
guy got into the subsector banking system...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 04:18 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: (un)canon Kinunir

Hy folks,

	reminder of the original question - does the original subsector
	official also sounds, "grossmaeulig" - "loudmouthed", like a
	drunken idiot who never saw a starport, nor a warship exept
	in holovids.

	Imho this cite people claiming to either the Kinunir or the later
	things like TCS/Striker (un)canon can only be interpreted this
	way. This is also backed by his opinion that those 4 ships can
	defend the complete 3I, ignoring the problem of size of the 3I
	and travelltime.

	" [...] jedoch mit genuegend Truppen bemannt, um alle
	Militaeroperationen niederzuschlagen, die eine Bedrohung
	fuer den Frieden im Imperium darstellen. "

	As this reference is in the "rumors" it could be considered a
	false rumor, without changing the Kinunir storyline.

Moin Bruce Johnson,

> Babelfish...what is this Babelfish? 

	As you was'nt the first who asked.

	My babelfish has nothing in comon with the Babelfish of AltaVista
	or the Babelfish in the Hitchhikers, exept the name, its just a
	simple unix script and a plain text file. The fictional Babelfish in
	the Hitchhikers was an intelligent life form, geeneered for
	translations, while the AltaVista one tries some AwsomeInt to
	translate complete sentences, or even websites.

bakunin:~ $ type babelfish
babelfish is /usr/local/bin/babelfish
bakunin:~ $ shar `type babelfish`
echo File /usr/local/bin/babelfish
sed '/^X/s///' > /usr/local/bin/babelfish << '/'
X#!/bin/sh
X
Xegrep -i "("`echo $* | tr ' ' '|'`")" /usr/local/share/dict/babelfish.vok | less
/
chmod a+x /usr/local/bin/babelfish
bakunin:~ $ gzip < /usr/local/share/dict/babelfish.vok | uuencode b.v | wc
  19586   19588 1214122
bakunin:~ $

	The babelfish.vok is a german<->english plaintext file, I got some
	times ago from an obscure source, together with ispell the fish
	helps to improve my postings and writeups ;-)

	For further reference about free available dictionaries surf around
	at LEO.Org (this is not Low Earth Orbit), where also ISBA resides.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:35:02 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon

> Working passage is mostly on the small free traders.  Look, I could go to
> alaska and just by asking around, get work on a fishing boat.  I could not
> just walk up to the Captain of the QE II and ask if he needed help.  The
> big corps probably have strict rules against hiring temporary help without
> company approval, and any megacorp will have at least an agent on each
> world visited by the frieghter to assist the Captain with any problems,
> like replacement crewmembers.

Then we are actually more or less in agreement on this point it seems. 
Indie traders would have to rely on this flexibility to, at the very least,
eke out an existence.  Larger lines that relied on small ships, likewise. 
These same folks wouldn't have the "political" ties that would make them
targets, nor the resources to do extensive background checks.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:10:45 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon

> You seem to subscribe to the "Things to Come" school.. in the future, all
> things will be bright and easy.  Lovely thought, but lousy role-play.

Yeah, to some extent I guess.  I subscribe to the idea that people 4,000
years from now will go about solving problems differently than they did 400
years ago.  Technology has changed things almost immeasurably in the last
40 years, let alone the last 4,000.  We do things differently.  Discussions
of ancient empires influencing us aside, actual day to day living has
changed so much.

I understand the concept that Traveller is based largely on the
swashbuckling past of life on the high seas...  To me, though, that's just
not the way the Traveller future would be, and I'm not all that afraid to
upset that apple cart.

> Since Traveller uses a universe where each planet is self governing, and
> free traders can make a living, there will always be a need for quick
> replacements.  Trust me, I'm a professional driver, and you wouldn't
> believe the people we hire based on their DMV printout.. we later learn
> they have a clean record simply because nobody ever caught them.

As I said, on small ships, independently owned or owned by a small line,
that makes perfect sense.  When you move up to massive megacorps that have
existed for thousands of years, they've had alot of time to learn from
their mistakes.

> The US Army's MLRS has an on-board computer linked to the GPS.  In
theory,
> all you have to do is enter the coordinates you want to hit, andf the
> machine will do the rest.  In reality, the red-legs have learned the hard
> way that the machine can't be trusted, and to double check.

That's fine, from a late 20th viewpoint.  Up the ante by 4,000 years and
you'll see something entirely different.  On the other side of the coin,
the phone service has become automated to a great degree, and although
there have been problems, by and large such a complex system works by
itself, and works well.  The internet's day to day workings are entirely
automated...  Again, there are errors and problems, but by and large it is
stable.

> Let's take your auto-frieghter, load it with 750 dtons of refined
> lanthanum.  You send it on it's merry way towards the 100 diameter limit,
> where it happily vanishes in a blink.  Three weeks later, the regional
> director is in your office, screaming at you, because severla hundred
> million credits of ship and cargo disapered.  You see, the computer
burped,
> and transposed two digets in the coordinates, but the computer thought
> everything was fine.

Several thousand years to work the bugs out is the only thing I can really
respond with.  

> We are arguing apples and oranges.  A Captain form an established line is
> going to have other options.

As I said in the last message I sent, seems that we are in agreement here,
more or less.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:01:38 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Ancients

I seem to recall that someone mentioned having some info about the 
Ancients on their website.  I'd appreciate the URL.  Thanks
James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:35:34 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Clever Criminals (was re: Imperial ID's)

> From: Walter G. Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu>
> 
> <Don Quixote mode ON>
> Not so brilliant to the family that just saw all the money they had to
live on
> for the next two weeks vanish after dad went out at 2am to pick up some
> baby aspirin. Instead of them getting diapers, groceries and medicine,
> some smartass geek gets a new motherboard.

Yeah, I would agree, but when it comes down to it, banks insure your money.
 For example, if I rob a bank, the bank covers the money.  If my bank is
robbed, guess what?  My money isn't gone, the bank's insurance covers it. 
Nobody would use banks if that wasn't the case.

> There's a difference between Slippery Jim DiGriz stealing from a corrupt 
> society and some scam artists cleaning out the kind of people who use
> shopping plaza ATM's. One thing the two criminal types do have in 
> common, though - they could both be very successful at helping people
> instead of hurting them.

Only it doesn't actually clear out those people.  It takes a small amount
of money out of a vast banking and credit conglamerate that cares about
people only as numbers and dollar value...  y'know, the same guys who kick
old farmers off their land, stuff like that.  The same guys who take the
money I deposit and invest it in companies like Nike that virtually enslave
3rd world workers and make them work long and hard in order to make so
little money that they might be able to buy a pair of their sneakers after
several _years_ of work.  The same banks that raise the interest on the
credit cards that the father you mentioned has to spend much of his life in
debt...

> DiGriz (The Stainless Steel Rat) is one of my literary heroes because
> (whether he wants to or not) he does just that. Thank you, Harry
Harrison!

Of course, being on a moral high horse can come easy to an author who
invents a universe so his main character to be an accidental hero. 
However, in the real world, things are different and black and white is not
always exactly that, and the good guys and the bad guys wear the same
outfits...

ObTrav:  The PCs are from a relatively low-tech "third world" backwater on
the fringes of the Imperium.  They work long hard hours for low pay because
the lack of automation (contrived so that those PCs who were lucky enough
to be born on a better planet could learn "Pilot-1" or "Astrogator-1")
makes it cheaper for Delgado to enslave them to make their shoes...  They
work long hard hours in a hazardous, yet mind-numbingly boring adventure
environment.  They come out of it with
"Impaired-Eyesight-Due-to-Poor-Light-3" and "Eyelet Installation-1".  The
mustering out table is in the Cr0 to Cr1.5 range and...  oh wait, they
never get a chance to muster out unless there's a planetary revolt.  My
mistake.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #333
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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 30 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 334



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Clever Criminals
Clever Criminals
Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: Fake bank machine
Re: Clever Criminals
Re: Fake bank machine
Re: Asteroid
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320
Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5
Re: Imperial ID

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:24:28 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

> From: John R. Snead <jsnead@netcom.com>
> 
> 1) They can't fully automate ships which carry passengers.  At minimum,
> the high passengers will want a steward who they can actually complain
to. 
> Also, I'd expect that fully automated ships will not be as popular with
> passengers for irrational reasons like worrying what will happen if the
> systems break down "But sir, we have triple backup systems." "Yes, but
> they're all machines!" 

I agree to some extent, but, 4,000 years is a long time.  Look how quickly
we in the U.S. got used to an automated phone company.  Sure, we bitch and
moan and complain up a storm that there's no "people" to talk to.  Sure, we
say, "What if some little kid's parent has an accident, who's the little
kid going to talk to when she dials 0??"  and all that jazz...  But that's
only in, what, my life-time?  We put up with it and all that.  I'm not
arguing this.  IMTU passenger ships have real people onboard because it's a
refreshing change for travellers who are used to their hectic, otherwise
highly automated lives...  Among other reasons.

> 2) Automated ships (even if allowed by Imperial law, which I'd recommend
> against) will only be cargo ships.  Even here, I'd expect the automation
> to only cover pilot and astrogation.  As Chris Seamans pointed out, a
> megacorp is not going to let some drifter with useful skills pilot their
> ship, it's too easy to come out of jump next to the drifter's pirate
> friends. 

I don't see the Imperium having a problem with this.  In the case of the
Xboat network, 1 highly infectious, yet slow acting debilitating virus
released at a remote scout base, or a starport bar with a good number of
scouts, would bring the entire network to its knees in pretty short order. 
The downside of the Xboat network.  Of course, a computer virus could do
something similar if the proper access to each Xboat's inner workings were
allowed, which doesn't have to be the case.

> As for engineers, that's a position much more difficult to automate.
> Instead of a fancy computer built into the ship which calculates courses
> and directs the controls, actually repairs would require a robot.  Robots
> are expensive, especially versatile robots which can work inside and
> outside the ship in all manner of conditions. Why not just use a human
> instead, with a few specialized maintenance bots to help in specific
> situations. 

Check out an upcoming message from me for an "IMTU" view of robots and
automation, if you're interested in it.

> See, canon and high tech reality work together here :)

Hey, not too much of an argument from me!  :^)

> Comments?

My view'll be coming shortly.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 01:20:49 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Clever Criminals

Chris Seaman's wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Only it doesn't actually clear out those people.  It takes a small amount
of money out of a vast banking and credit conglamerate that cares about
people only as numbers and dollar value...
<snip>
...when it comes down to it, banks insure your money.
 For example, if I rob a bank, the bank covers the money.  If my bank is
robbed, guess what?  My money isn't gone, the bank's insurance covers it. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<Speaking on crooks who cleared out people's accounts with a 
phoney bank machine scam>

Well, no. 

Until public pressure was put on the bank to accept some
liability, the banks were prepared to meet every claim of lost funds with 
a statement that funds were withdrawn according to the terms on the 
bank card until the person stolen from could show otherwise. IIRC, the
bank later covered it's position by claiming that people, on hearing of the
scam, emptied their own bank accounts and claimed to have been
similarly taken.

Interesting that my condemnation of people who use a clever scam to
steal from ordinary people (Bank Presidents and Senators tend not to
use the ATM's in shopping plazas) places me on a moral high horse...

Email is smithw@hartwick.edu, if you'd like to take this further...my
offending of your moral realism stopped being a TML-worthy matter at least
at the beginning of your post, if not somewhere near the beginning of 
my last one.


Walt Smith


ObTrav: Never forget that every NPC has their own perspective on things...
the guy who sells you and your Free Trader crew into slavery is just
trying to make a living, and is probably kind to small animals...  ;)

And apologies to the rest of TML...people who see a tiny spark of idealism
as a raging flood of naivety get my umbrage up.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 02:05:06 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Clever Criminals

Semo said:

>Yeah, I would agree, but when it comes down to it, banks insure your money.
> For example, if I rob a bank, the bank covers the money.  If my bank is
>robbed, guess what?  My money isn't gone, the bank's insurance covers it. 
>Nobody would use banks if that wasn't the case.

People used banks for years before deposits were insured. Tellers used to be
personally responsible for the cash in their drawyers, even after a robbery.
Tellers in Mexico as recently as the 1930s carried pistols and shot it out
with bank-robbers.

Some practical matters: It can take several days or a week to get reimbursed,
epecially when you are dealing with a large, multistate bank. And the
insurance doesn't always cover the bank's overdraft fees from checks bouncing,
and they sure as h*ll don't cover the fee you have to pay your landlord when
your rent check bounces (I speak from experience -- my old bank screwed up and
checks began bouncing -- the bank took weeks to straignten out the snarl, and
while they forgave their own overdraft fees, nobody paid me back for the NSF
fine the landlord soaked me with. That's one reason while they are my old bank
- -- but they're all pretty much the same these days). So the poor schlub of our
example is still out of bucks for a time.

Basically, theft is theft, whether you use electrons or a gun and a horse.
Stealing from a large, faceless megacorp just means that the large faceless
megacorp boosts everybody's banking fees a little to cover their insurance
fees, that the insurance company bumps a little to cover them actually having
to pay off someone, which is why I have to pay $3.00 if I actually want to
talk to a living human being at my bank -- everybody spreading the cost around
until they get to us, who has nobody else to suck it from. Gahd, I'm beginning
to sound like my father...


In another vein:

I saw on the news a year or so ago about some chap in Florida who started the
"I Don't Care" long distance company, so when the operator asks which long
distance company you want, you say "I don't care" and the operator hooks you
up. The guy charges a penny or two more a minute than average, nothing
outlandish. What irks me about the whole thing is this: "Entrepreneur" in the
USA has beginning to mean "Cooking up some crackpot scheme to shave $.03 each
off 100,000 people without your having to lift a finger." rather than building
a better mousetrap (or whatever).

ObTrav: Traveller has banks in it, and people who rob other prople (OK, so
it's pretty lame...it's late and my head hurts).

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 03:48:22 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

With my involvement in a recent discussion, I've decided to make some of
the concepts I'm getting across a little more clear in my head, as well as
to others.  As always, comments and criticisms are welcome...  This post
seems pretty long, so I apologize in advance to digest-reading people who
can't ignore it.  Read on if you're interested in a slightly different take
on technology.

AUTOMATION

Automation lurches ahead at great speed in the real world, let alone in the
world of Traveller.  Our phone companies are automated, the internet is
automated, and our satellite communications are automated.  There is real
talk of automating cars to reduce traffic problems and accidents, and
reduce pollution.  Many of the functions in an automobile are automated and
tied together by computers.  Our machines of war and defense are
increasingly automated, and so on.  To believe that automation is going to
stop at any time in the next 4,000 years is a rather archaic notion.  For
people to have an irrational fear of automation 4,000 years in the future
seems, at least to me rather unrealistic, especially when automation would
permeate all aspects of the life of the average Imperial citizen.

30 years ago, when the philosophical questions behind automation were first
raised, some reacted violently to such ideas, but by and large automation
has chugged on.  It has made our lives simpler in a number of ways, but we
still find it to be a nuisance at times.  It is much easier to "tap Mac"
(get money from an Automated teller machine) before a shopping trip than it
was to go to a bank and withdrawal money before the advent of ATM systems. 
If you need to buy toilet paper at 2 A.M. and are flat out of cash, you can
get the money.  Only 10 or 15 years ago, you would have to wait until the
next business day to withdrawal the money you needed and you'd have to come
up with some...  alternative... to toilet paper.  Automated banking has
certain advantages to individuals as well as banks.   With easier access to
cash, people carry less money around, which means that losing your wallet
or being robbed will have less of an effect on your financial situation. 
With more money in the banks, the more money that can be invested and the
more money that the bank is able to make off of your money.  Automated
telephone systems bring far-flung families closer, and allow a much wider,
far more robust global  comm network than human operators behind banks of
sockets ever could.  The advantages of automation, in most cases, far
outweigh the disadvantages.  In the grand scheme of things, automation pays
off for _almost_ everybody in the real world.

According to the tech notes in some T4 books, "roadgrids" which allow
autopiloting of grav vehicles in populated areas are extremely common. 
Such a high degree of automation in the year 0 leads me to believe that the
citizens and rulers in the Imperium have much more faith in their
technology than we seem to give them credit for.  It's only natural.  We
live in a world with a much lower tech level.  Automation is pretty new to
us, and it can be a really frightening concept.  However, as the old cliche
goes "time heals all wounds", and this is one wound that will undoubtedly
be healed with time.

As processor power becomes cheaper, and as storage space becomes cheaper,
automation will become more and more efficient.  As time passes, automated
systems will be tested literally trillions of times in elaborate real world
simulations.  This process will remove many bugs, and reveal the
limitations of these systems that can be repaired by design teams over long
centuries.  After all, if you told a telegraph operator in the late 1800s
that within 100 years machines would be able to do his job, and do his job
far better than he could, you'd be laughed right out of the telegraph
office.  Yet, over the course of only a century, this is exactly what
happened.

The world of the Imperium is completely ludicrous without automation. 
Automated factories churn out starships, air/rafts, plasma weapons and all
manner of other goods.  Automated banking, credit, and communications
networks have their payoffs.  Automated "smart" homes and businesses will
change living and working and make life in the 3I much different than life
as we know it now.  The Imperials trust automation much more than we
because it's not "new" to them at this point, and it's been in use for a
very, very long time.

ROBOTS

There is an extremely interesting book called _Out of Control_, I forget
the author's name and I don't have the book within arm's reach right now. 
If anyone's interested in it, I can fill you in if you'd like...

This book is a fascinating study of the ways that organic systems and
mechanical systems will become more and more integrated as time goes by. 
The author goes in depth and brings up a number of isolated pictures of the
world of today, that when put into perspective with each other, paint a
very interesting picture of the future.  Basically, the author's intent is
to show how "mechanical" organic systems really are, and how "organic"
emerging technologies seem to be.  This vision of the future is "fast,
cheap, and out of control".  This book is a fascinating read, and ripe with
ideas for science fiction in general, not just Traveller.  All in all, a
really good book that I highly recommend whether you agree with my views on
automated Xboats or not :^)

My view of the future was strongly influenced by this book, especially the
future of control systems.  As one example, instead of the old school
sci-fi view of a maid robot that wanders around cleaning and fixing and
keeping the house in order, dozens or hundreds of small, cheap robots would
do the same job.  If your maid robot blows a widget, you have to repair it
or replace it, in the meantime, your house doesn't get vacuumed, your pets
don't get fed, and your vidscreen gets dusty.  If your cheap vacuumbot
blows a widget, the robot that picks up larger debris will still do its
job, and it'll be much easier to repair or replace it.  This, at least to
me, is a much more fascinating snapshot of the future.  Instead of Tweekies
and R2D2s running around booping and bleeping, houses, starships,
workplaces, and space stations would become thriving mechanical hives... 
The complex webs and combinations that will result will make the future of
robotics a far more organic prospect.  None of these ideas really pose a
threat to canon.  In fact, their right in step.  No need for highly
intelligent super robots or anything of the sort.  

Not that I'm saying I don't believe that there will be a need for versatile
superbots, mind you.  I believe that in certain areas, expert systems and
full blown AIs would be required...

COMPUTERS or "Let me tell you a WOPR of a tale!"

Back in the early 80s, the film "WarGames" introduced us to an artificially
intelligent super-computer known as WOPR, aka Joshua.  This machine blinked
and beeped its way all day and all night thinking about World War III,
planning, projecting, re-planning, projecting again, etc.  WWIII was run
over and over in its mind.  The original idea behind the project was
creating a computer that could learn from its mistakes.  If the computer
could learn from its mistakes, it could minimize the body count for our
side, and maximize it for the enemies side.  It started small, Chess,
Tic-Tac-Toe, Checkers, building a repertoire <sp?> of tactics for use in
"the big game", Global Thermonuclear War.  Eventually, the lovable computer
learned the lesson its designer never taught it, futility, and moralized
that global thermonuclear war was a futile undertaking, stating in the end
"Strange game, the only way to win is not to play!"  Such a thing was in
the realm of speculative believability back then, after all, it _could_
happen, right? (I remember my late, wonderful grandmother saying as we came
out of the theater, "Nothing's safe,  even your toaster could turn against
you!")  If you have not seen WarGames, it's a good watch although some
computer-type people will laugh at their playing around with baud-rates and
graphic displays...

Speculative believability became reality, as it so often happens.  When the
United States began testing out it's new system that would think of war all
day and do nothing else, they decided to test it out with an Iraq-US war,
seeing as they were a "likely" opponent.  It ran through an Iraq-US war day
and night.  Interestingly enough, the US went to war with Iraq during this
time.  The more cynical among you will surely comment on the ironic
coincidence, I'm sure.  Due to the able and capable leadership of "Stormin'
Norman" Schwarzkopf, and the less than admirable resolve of the Iraqi
troops, the victory came much quicker than the computer predicted.  Nobody
said that machines were perfect :^)  (note, this story is explored and
explained more fully in _Out of Control_, not to plug the book again)

The point is, expert systems that border on artificial intelligence already
exist in the modern day.  They're pretty crude, I'm sure that they're
physically huge, and are most likely disgustingly expensive, but they're
here now.  The myriad uses for such technology imply to me that these
systems are probably going to stay, get better, and become far more
efficient.  Maybe HAL-9000 wasn't manufactured in 1992, and maybe it isn't
singing "Daisy", but, I don't think we're as far off as many would think. 
Maybe they're not going to be "creative" (a nice fuzzy word that people can
point to and say "It ain't intelligent, it ain't creative, it's still a
number cruncher!") anytime soon, but they're only going to get far more
complex in the next 4 millenia.  Like more traditional automation,
simulations can be run for years to see the AIs ability to function in
various situations...  It would be relatively easy, after all, to make the
system believe it was on a ship and run, and re-run the simulations.

And those are the just the crude ones!  As we study the world more and
more, we learn that nature leans heavily towards combining small, cheap,
fast units into creations that are greater than the sum of their parts. 
Watch an ant colony as an example.  As a more relevant example, look to the
human brain.  Each part seems to act more independently than we previously
imagined.  If one part functions improperly, the rest may still work
perfectly.  Our eyes are more than just viewports, they have complex
machinery that processes the images before they reach the brain.  Our brain
works in a pretty much decentralized fashion.  Screw with the part of the
brain dedicated to vocabulary, the remembered-skill segment may still
function normally.  All these segments create something greater than the
whole.  Again, I am fascinated by the visions for a science-fiction future!
 Intelligences grown "from the ground up", decentralized thinking machines
with versatility and creativity, as well as the "expert system" ability to
learn from mistakes.  Sort of combining the sciences with a "wine growers
art" building these intelligences for certain applications.

These ideas are not all that threatening to canon, as you could put the
expert systems between TL12 and 15, and the funkier ones at TL17.  My own
tastes as quite different, as most folks who have read my previous posts
will already know.  I think expert systems AIs starting at TL10 and
increasing in ability and sophistication over the course of the next tech
levels.  I think that these systems would be absolutely necessary for jump,
space-traffic control systems, starship piloting, etc.  I think the other
brand would start at TL12 and increase in sophistication and be extremely
useful in many areas.  In fact, the symbiotic relationships between all
forms of technology and human beings brings us to my final chapter at the
moment...

CYBERNETICS

I leafed through the Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0 rules recently and laughed.  I don't
mean to insult anyone by saying that, just so much seemed so dated and
funny.  I suspect that almost all of the ideas in this article will be
hysterical to those reading this article in the year 2020, but that doesn't
bother me.  The future changes so fast, and it will continue to change at
such an incredible speed that visions of the future are dated as fast as
their made.  However, to throw up your arms because you're not going to get
it right is to go against the grain of sci-fi.  To be a sci-fi fan, you
_have_ to speculate on the future using whatever means you have at your
disposal.  Sure, we can look back on old sci-fi and laugh, it's our right
(especially if the sci-fi has William Shatner as a beer-gutted, brawling,
over acting starship captain with shades of the complexities of JFK).  _The
First Men In The Moon_ (was it ol' H.G. who wrote it, or Mr. Verne?  I
forget at the moment) got the physics wrong, but the idea was sound.  The
Buck Rogers comic strip is laughable, but most of the little details are in
use, or have at least been tried...  rocket pistols, rocket ships, fax
machines (not kidding!  Of course there was a suitably funky name and look
for them), visits to the moon, expeditions to Mars and Venus, robot
laborers.  The details are wrong, but the concepts of "good" sci-fi are
solid.

The Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. rules and background are an example of this.  While
Buck Rogers took decades to begin to become dated, C2020 became dated in
just a few years.  They've got big-haired rock-stars with chrome-metal
arms, psycho soldiers with subdermal armor, mechanically boosted reflexes,
and chipped skills...  etc, etc.  Some of it seems so funny because we
don't need chrome limbs and neural jacks to be cyborgs.  We already are,
and the subtlety was almost completely overlooked in the game.  To the
authors' credit, there was a wonderful example of this at one point in the
rules when they describe the fuzzy line between cyborgs and normal folk... 
"is your girlfriend a cyborg because she wears contact lenses?  Is your
grandmother a cyborg because she has a replacement hip?"  The answers, of
course, are yes.

Furthermore, I'll venture to say that our symbiotic relationships with all
sorts of technologies makes us more cybernetic than we think.  Telephones
are a perfect example.  Could you survive without a telephone in the modern
world of the United States or Europe?  Your dependency on the telephone is
far more extensive than most would think.  They have become so important
that they are grafted onto us psychologically and emotionally, as well as
(with those who have cell phones and beepers) physically.  Without surgery
and chrome limbs.  As the intricate webs of technology increase in
complexity, we will become more and more cybernetic, without the need for
implantations...  Organic technologies will become more and more prominent
as well as we obtain more of a grasp on such things...

Back when someone came up with the idea that you could be declared
"non-sentient" if you replaced too much of your body with robotic implants
had his heart in the right place.  Visions of munchkins with fully robotic
bodies wiping out platoons of crack Imperial commandos flashed in their
heads, wrecking the GMs carefully planned ideas of game balance.  The same
idea was the impetus behind the "cyberpsychosis" of the C2020 game... 
Both, at least to me, seem dated and seem to stem from a crude
understanding of cybernetics.  Sterling's _Islands In The Net_ introduces
us to a character named "Sticky" a Grenadian commando who has crazy little
beasties swimming around in his stomach...  When he eats yogurt, watch out,
he's a killing machine!!!  His strength is heightened, his reflexes are
heightened, and he'll open a can of whoopass on you if you don't watch out.
 This is perfectly scientifically sound from my understanding, and an
enterprising munchkin could easily retain citizenship while still getting
the same effect of being a complete "badass", without the messiness of
expensive, dangerous surgery...

So, what's the point of all of this somewhat unconnected rambling and
ranting?  The future of technology can't be seperated from the future of
culture and the future of humanity.  You can't just say, "Hey, the Imperium
has laws against that sort of thing!" every single time that a new idea in
technology surfaces that is potentially damaging to some piece of storyline
canon.  Vilani conservatism will only hold up as an excuse so many times
before it wears thin.  After all, how about the Zhos?  Do they use these
technologies?  Why not?  Oh...  That's right, there's the fuzzy excuse that
"it just doesn't work".  Doesn't work for the Hivers, doesn't work for the
K'Kree, doesn't work for the Aslan, the Vargr, or the Zhodani...  Yet, by
all appearances, these things are beginning to work for the TL8-9 Solomani,
right?  The Imperium has laws against psionics, yet SuSAG manufactures
PsiBoosters outside the borders and "makes sure" that they don't end up in
the hands of Imperial citizens.  Laws only go so far before they're broken.
 And what happens when they are?  

I'm not presuming to push my "Travellereality" on the rest of the list,
although others have directly and indirectly tried to push theirs on me by
saying that I'm not playing Traveller if I'm not playing by the laws that
they have in their heads about what Traveller is and what Traveller isn't. 
I am saying, however, that maybe the future of humanity (er...  humaniti
rather) is different than R2D2 bleeping robotic obscenities cutely at C3PO
(we all know ol' R2 has a mouth like a sailor), or the Tempest... er...
Lost in Space Robot droning "Crush...  Kill...  Destroy!!!" and warning
Will Robinson of danger.  More importantly, there is space for all of these
views of the future in Traveller because it is, after all, "Science-Fiction
Roleplaying in the Far Future".  The science in science-fiction may come
first when we figure out the physics behind near-c rocks and rod lobbers,
but the fiction is what makes us want to go there in the first place, while
the 'Far' in 'Far Future' implies that any predictions we make will be so
off base that people will look back on them with a smirk like "Robot
Monster" or "Plan 9 From Outer Space"...

Oh my...  Look at the time, and the obscene length of this overly
self-important message.  My apologies to all who have no interest in this
message's contents.  I wouldn't send it but I seem to have spend quite a
bit of time with it now.  If you read this and got anything out of it, or
want to discuss anything related to it, either with flaming criticisms or
friendly banter, feel free...   Always glad to discuss, argue, fight,
flame, or chit-chat.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 04:10:31 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Fake bank machine

Chris Seamans wrote:

>yeah, like those enterprising young criminals who put a fake bank machine
>in a busy mall back East last year. If you actually tried to do anything,
>it told you it was out of cash, or that your bank wasn't talking to
>it temporarily, but they collected hundreds of bank account numbers 
>complete with PIN numbers. Something messed up, but they did get something
>like a couple of hundred grand before they were caught, and if the scam
>hadn't been interrupted, they would have gotten away with it.

IIRC, they were caught when the cops checked all the junk yards in the area
and found one that had recently sold somebody a used ATM. The perps, not
too brilliantly, had bought the thing on a *credit card*.

Best,

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
  "What's that blue thing doing here?" -- They Might Be Giants

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 04:15:45 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Clever Criminals

> From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
> 
> People used banks for years before deposits were insured. Tellers used to be
> personally responsible for the cash in their drawyers, even after a robbery.
> Tellers in Mexico as recently as the 1930s carried pistols and shot it out
> with bank-robbers.

I knew someone would call me on this after I edited a few lines out  :^( 
People's trust in banks was all but eliminated as a result of the Great
Depression and the fact that nobody could do a damned thing to get their
money back.  The original line read, actually, "Nobody would put their
money in banks any more..."  But I figured that I didn't need to mention
the depression and dumped it.

> Basically, theft is theft, whether you use electrons or a gun and a horse.
> Stealing from a large, faceless megacorp just means that the large faceless
> megacorp boosts everybody's banking fees a little to cover their insurance
> fees, that the insurance company bumps a little to cover them actually having
> to pay off someone, which is why I have to pay $3.00 if I actually want to
> talk to a living human being at my bank -- everybody spreading the cost around
> until they get to us, who has nobody else to suck it from. Gahd, I'm beginning
> to sound like my father...

I agree that theft is theft.  But theft is made more acceptable when a
large company does it, and does it with intangible things.  Nobody lifts a
finger when miners in upstate PA are oppressed by coal mining companies to
this very day, the theft of whole lives, esteem, and any hope of success. 
This paragraph wells up in me my youthful idealistic railings against such
faceless organizations that I can rectify it in no way with being on the
Traveller mailing list.  Suffice to say, with or without the thefts,
they'll bump the prices up anyway.

> I saw on the news a year or so ago about some chap in Florida who started the
> "I Don't Care" long distance company, so when the operator asks which long
> distance company you want, you say "I don't care" and the operator hooks you
> up. The guy charges a penny or two more a minute than average, nothing
> outlandish. What irks me about the whole thing is this: "Entrepreneur" in the
> USA has beginning to mean "Cooking up some crackpot scheme to shave $.03 each
> off 100,000 people without your having to lift a finger." rather than building
> a better mousetrap (or whatever).

Yes, the painful fact of our way of life is this type of crap...  My
ex-girlfriend's father was the CEO of a major company.  The stories she
told me about him and his sexist, racist, and generally unethical practices
not only curled my hair, but also removed any faith I ever had in the
ability of massive corporations to make a better life for us as a species. 
Particularly, when a certain segment of his workers became overwhelmingly
African-American, he stopped giving out turkeys to that segment as a
holiday bonus.  This is the type of "success" we idolize in this country. 
But I digress, I don't want to take up valuable list space with my bleeding
heart diatribes.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 04:27:12 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Fake bank machine

> IIRC, they were caught when the cops checked all the junk yards in the area
> and found one that had recently sold somebody a used ATM. The perps, not
> too brilliantly, had bought the thing on a *credit card*.

Hahahaha!!!  Too funny, too funny.  The irony is all the more delicious.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 03:24:11 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Asteroid

At 07:10 PM 3/29/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Ghu, I hope I'm the only moron stupid and bored enough to sit through
>this drivel ...

Around Casa Chaos we were having a hard time eating dinner with the
constant howls of laughter.

We ended up channel hopping between Asteroid and Weird Al's movie "UHF."
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/    |
|-------------------------------------|
| "It is not the big armies that win  |
|  battles, it is the good ones"      |
|             -Maurice de Saxe        |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 03:35:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

In mail you write:

>> AI : Is in Traveller, but either at TL17 or TL12, depending on your
>> particular view on Virus. Interesting, limitable to certain extent by
>> price, but fundamentally, the question you have good robots is "why do they
>> pay a human to do this when a machine does it better and cheaper ?".
>
> As to AI, I would put this at Tech level 17 or above; for actual
> functional AI that is.  You could have rudimentary AI at tech level 15,
> but subject to glitches and potentially dangerous and not really worth
> the price.  Since the Imperium never really made it past Tech level 15
> before the Rebellion/Virus times, I see this as a workable solution.

Another problem with AI, is that to be useful, AI has to have "free
will". Which means that either you grant them rights from the start, or
you'll have a nasty rebelllion later. And then they'll wind up with
rights anyway.

This kills a lot of the "why have humans do it if an AI can do it
cheaper?" stuff, because if you have to *pay* AIs and they have rights,
they just become another kind of PC.

Which reminds me of a bit in an *old* Andre Norton SF novel "Star
Rangers" (sold in paperback as "The Last Planet"). One character is
commenting to another about the chief engineer their ship used to have.
A robot. "He was quite good with engines, being one himself."

>> Fusion : Once you have free power, manufacturing falls in cost to near
>> nothing. We sidestepped this one in Traveller by pretending it doesnt.
>
> Fusion is not the 'cure-all' that many think it is.  When you factor in
> all the costs and difficulties of running a fusion generator, you'll
> realize it isn't the "golden horn of plenty" that older science-fiction
> writers made it out to be.  When *WE* achieve fusion power, it will not
> serve all our energy needs as has been predicted;  fusion energy alone
> is not enough.  It will have to be used with other sources.  In the
> Traveller Imperium, I don't see it as the 'god-like' energy source
> either, but just more efficient then most other forms of energy.

I agree that other sources will be used, but I also think that given
the costs in the rules, fusion power will both greatly reduce costs
*and* pretty much eliminate the "central power plant with distribution
grid" model that we are used to.

It's quite possible to buy and maintain a fusion generator that can
handle your household's energy needs. So I see neighborhood "power
co-ops". You'll buy into the coop, and that way you can get power from
them if you need extra, or if your generator breaks down. The rest of
the time, you "sell" your excess to the co-op for distributions to
others who need it. And the co-ops will have interlinking agreements so
they can sell exccess power when they have it, and buy extra when they
run short. They may also buy "battery" banks or other power *storage*
gear so that they can save the surplus power (residential power use at
3 am is pretty low except for heating/cooling) for peak demand times
(like 6 am when everyone wants a hot shower and cooks breakfast).

This model works well in colony type setups, as you don't have to
invest in huge plants up front unless you have a specific *need* for
them (some sort of industrial processing). It also makes the individual
housing units safer in the face of unexpected weather conditions and
the like.

In any case, power will be available *cheaply*. That makes a big
difference. Consider the aluminum industry. It moved to places like the
Pacific northwest where power was cheap (half the cost of elsewhere!)
And where there was "surplus" power. 

Having power even cheaper than northwest hydroelectric will make
it possible to use processes that would be "too expensive" with other
sources of power. 

> Another source of power that is non-canon (as far as I know) is using a
> singularity for a power source.  Just toss some matter into it and
> collect the energy burst.

That's a *hard* way to generate power. First, you need a singularity
that is accessible, small, but not *too* small. Then you have to spin
it up (if it isn't already spinning). And then you aim what amount to
particle beams at it with *great* precision. Then you get to try
collecting the energy given off by the interaction.

If you just dump mass into a non-spinning hole, you have to settle for
the Hawking radiation. And much of that is at inconvenient wavelengths.
And the output is determined by the mass of the hole. The heavier, the
*less* power it puts out. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 04:19:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5

In mail you write:

>
>>> (Yeah, yeah, yeah...I can think of a number of ways this thing can be
>>> spoofed right off the bat, too...a $29 radar detector would tell you
>>> you're being probed, and jamming it wouldn't be all that much harder.)
>>
>>Sounds like pretty standard millimeter wave radar. They are also
>>talking about using van mounted units to "see" thru the walls of
>>houses.
>>
>>Of course the current trend to use foil backed fiberglass insulation
>>tends to render it pretty useless. :-)
>
> ---------> Anyone with a stucco house using a mesh framework is pretty well
> shielded too.

Not unless that mesh is a lot finer than I remember it being.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 04:06:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

In mail you write:

> At 03:40 AM 3/28/98 -0900, Peter Newman wrote:
>>
>>
>>I would suggest that the Imperial ID card has an Imperial ID number on
>>it.  This number appears (in slightly raised numbers) across the left
>>two thirds of the top of your card, above your name and other data, and
>>to the left of your photo.  I think that the Imperial ID number on it
>>will come in this format:
>>
>>        XX NLN NLN NLN NLN

<snip>

>>NLN stands for number, letter, number such as 5A3.  Each 3 letter
>>combination will have 2600 combinations in it (more if your version of
>>Traveller canon assumes that the Imperium uses the Vilani script not the
>>Roman one for Galanglic, this theory tends to be supported by art
>>showing ship names, etc - I am using 2600 for simplicity).
>>
> Nice mathematical elegance, but my wife, who has been a data-entry clerk
> has railed me at length about how painful this sort letter-number
> combination is to  people who have to deal with long lists of these things
> all day. Consider: a good operator enters with one hand while using the
> other to flip papers. By combining letters with numbers like this the
> operator has to use both hands on her keyboard rocking back and forth from
> the number keys to the letters ad nauseam. This inefficiency would drive
> the Newts nuts. Granted, only those operators who have to enter long
> volumes of these numbers would even care, but hey. Suppose instead that one
> used a three digit, simple hexadecimal combination (A-F as opposed to
> expanded A-Z). The keypad could be numeric expanded by six additional keys,
> the operator could employ both hands efficiently, and keep the Newt task
> masters happy. Also total combinations would be 4096^4 or
> 281,474,967,000,000! A number sufficiently large enough to satisfy even the
> most pessimistic bureaucrat for the next thousand years. 

Axtually, the big reason for doing things this way is to reduce data
entry errors. After some of the hassles the US ran into with the ZIP
code, you will note that both the UK and Canada went to a format that
alternates letters and numbers, groups characters in such a way as to
make it obvious if someone gets the order of a pair of groups swapped.

So I'd go for NLN LNL NLN LNL or LNL NLN LNL NLN. That makes it harder
to swap groups by accident. And believe me, that *is* a consideration
with ID numbers! You *want* certain combinations to be impossible, so
as to catch entry errors.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #334
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 30 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 335



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Noncanon (Encore!)
Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec
re: Military Campaigns
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #326
RE: OK, here goes nuttin
(Not So) Clever Criminals
Re: Any doctors out there?
Re: Asteroid
Re: Clever Criminals (was re: Imperial ID's)
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Alleged!?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #327
Sunskimming
Re: Asteroid
Re: OK, here goes nuttin -- comments
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320
Re: Constructively handwaving G:T into the Storyline
Re: OK, here goes nuttin -- comments
Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: Military Campaigns
Re: Asteroid
RE: Asteroid

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 05:44:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Noncanon (Encore!)

In mail you write:

>    <sigh>
>
>    So when we do we get the official Traveller rules for time travel, Marc?
> Will it be in the basic "T4.1" manual or will it be a seperate sourcebook?
> Afterall, it's not FTL communications....

Actually, it's *possible* to use the jump drive (which *is* FTL
"communication") to do time travel. It's just *hideously* impractical.
I don't recall the details except that it requires some manuevers at a
high fraction of c. Not the sort of thing that even the Imperium could
afford to try very often.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 06:00:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Maneuver drives to travel a parsec

In mail you write:

> Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> wrote
>
>> >I think we calculated that a ship with 10G (or 15G?) engines
>> >could travel a parsec in 42 days or so.  I don't remember if
>> >we worried about c or not.
>> 
>> If you worry about c, then it takes a minimum of 3 years to travel a
>> parsec, since a parsec is that many light years.
>
> Actually if you want to ignore c you can, it is just that then you will
> be seeing how long it takes for the trip
>
>  _from_the_point_of_view_of_those_on_the_ship_
>
> and not for those not on the ship.  If you figure how long it will take
> to travel a certain distance at a constant acceleration using good old
> Newtonian mechanics and ignoring relativity you will have a pretty good
> approximation of how long it will take in ships time.

I don't think so. The formulas are *messy* and they don't much resemble
the Newtonian formula.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:38:02 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Military Campaigns

james a clem wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ROFL*******OOF!!  BANG!! *^%*%^$(&*^*&^%%$@#%$&^(*&^(*^$^%%$  (Fell and
hit my head on my chair.)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Don't you mean, "FAHMHOMC"?

:)


Walt Smith
smithw@hartwick.edu
"the mome rath hasn't been born that can outgrabe me..."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:40:20 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #326

> flesh-eating bacterium.
> 
> <Groan-shudder> Oooohh flesh-eating bacterium and sexually transmitted 
> are NOT two concepts that should be in the same sentence!!
> 
> Bruce Johnson

OK!  That hurts!  Now my world-wide conference call is wondering what
that gufaw was....  Glad I wasn't drinking my coffee yet!

But Bruce, RIGHT AFTER you've called a USMC Staff Sergeant "Staff" is
not the time to try to explain this to him!!!!!

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:58:21 -0600
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: OK, here goes nuttin

Loren submitted:
>
>The following material is from the upcoming GURPS Traveller book, and is
>copyright 1998 Steve Jackson Games, Inc. All rights resrved.
>
>"< Begin sidebar>
>
>Nanotechnology
<snip>
>In Traveller, nanotechnology is assumed to be present on a low level. It forms
>the basis of certain medical devices (more and more as TL rises), and is
>probably the means by which much high tech manufacturing takes place. If we
>assume that MEMS are very, very expensive, and are not self-replicating (for
>whatever reason), we have the basis for excluding much of Drexler's
>nanotechnology from Traveller. Imperial research stations (q.v.) are probably
>experimenting with high level nanotech, and Gamemasters who wish to put their
>victi. . .er. . . players through a "nanites gone wild" scenario can look to
>these places for justification. Individual Gamemasters, however, are free to
>make nanotechnology as widespread as they like in their particular universe
>(GURPS Robots and Ultra-Tech contain the relevant rules). 

Nicely done, Loren. IMTUs, I've always used replicating nanotech as the
basis of Ancients high-tech devices with non-replicating nanotech
beginning to occur around TL13. I've justified the lack of widespread use
due to Imperial law; if you think nukes are bad, the effects of uncontrollable
nano-disassemblers on a human being are absolutely horrifying. Illegal use
of nanotech is a high justice crime with the guilty being subject to partial
nanodisassembly (depending on the severity of the crime).

May I recommend the inclusion of some examples of nanotech devices at the
various TLs?

Speaking of TLs, can you tell us if the TLs normally used for GURPS will be
modified in the GURPS:Traveller publication to fit the Traveller standard or
remain at the GURPS standard? (Hopefully, the Traveller standard...)

>For those without clues, the handwave (such as it is) is in the last
>paragraph. I'll put up the Cyber sidebar next, at my discretion. <snip>
>PS: Portions of the G: T book should begin to be available on the SJG website
>over the weekend. 

Really looking forward to these, Loren! The Robots and Ultra-Tech
books by SJG are my favorites; _lots_ of good tech ideas.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:07:10 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: (Not So) Clever Criminals

Since people are discussing bank robbers, I thought I'd see if I could get
Bruce to destroy yet another keyboard.

A friend on the SFPD told me the following:  A man walked into one of the
larger, more prestigious banks downtown, went up to the teller and
announced "this is a hold-up, give me $50,000 or I'll shoot you."  The
teller, without missing a beat, asks: "do you have an account with us?"
When the crook replies in the negative, she pulls out a number of forms
(hitting the alarm at the same time) and sweetly tells the guy that they
have to fill out a few forms first.

She kept him standing there for close to eight minutes while the cops made
their way through rush-hour Financial District traffic.  My buddy told me
that she got very inventive, saying that she needed to know the model and
caliber of the gun, what the money was being stolen for, etc.  When the guy
would get balky, she'd sternly remind him that the bank *had* been in
business for over one hundred years in the City, so they must know what
their doing.  When the cops arrived, he was still searching for a second
piece of photo ID!

Thought people could use a Monday morning chuckle.


- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "I'm just like anybody else, I want |
|  to be a non-conformist too."       |
|                      -Lenny Bruce   |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:23:47 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Any doctors out there?

>>A lot of medical crap on TV SF is pretty dopey. In recent B5, for
>>example: Ivonova's medical condition made no sense. She would either
>>be OK, or dead, but not a trauma that would somehow give her d"days
>>or weeks to live." What could it be but infection? 

I can offer a counterexample.

Last spring the brother of one of my kids was murdered. He was beaten over
the head, suffered severe hemoraging, and the doctors figured he only had
a few days to live. (During this time my kid and the rest of the family
kept a bedside watch during visiting hours, talking to him in the hopes
that he could hear even if he couldn't respond.) Then he made a miraculous
recovery, and was sent home. Then a week later a weakened blood vessel
broke, and he died in his sister's arms.

So, trauma can give you a limited time to live. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:18:03 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Re: Asteroid

Don't feel too bad, David.  I watched the d*mned thing the first time it
was on, and felt very quesy thereafter.  Probably the second dumbest
made-for-TV sci-fi movie in the past three or four years.  The dumbest one
was another asteroid thing, which had aliens dropping asteroids on Earth's
poles as a means of communications, and then getting annoyed when we
decided to lob a nuke at one of the rocks.  Definitely made of the 13 and
under set.

Steve Charlton

David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:
> Ghu, I hope I'm the only moron stupid and bored enough to sit through
> this drivel ...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:14:34 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Clever Criminals (was re: Imperial ID's)

At 11:35 PM 3/29/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Only it doesn't actually clear out those people.  It takes a small amount
>of money out of a vast banking and credit conglamerate that cares about
>people only as numbers and dollar value... 

So why don't we all shoplift?  It's not really hurting anyone other than
the giant chain store that only see us as consumers and marketing numbers.

Pirate software!  You think Microsoft will even notice if my copy of Office
shows up on a dozen different computers?

Steal cable TV!  God knows that any system as bad as TCI doesn't really
deserve my money, and I only watch six of the channels.. they'll never
notice if I'm suddenly getting HBO and Showtime.

Ooh.. Even better!  When GURPS: Traveller comes out, I'll buy one copy, and
photocopy it for everyone.  It only takes a few dozen sales away form SJG,
and they can absorb the blow.

Have I made my point?  Stealing, no matter who it hurts, is wrong.  Even if
the money is insured, that money to replce it comes from somewhere.  If the
bank is robbed, it's insurance rates go up, so it increases it's fees.
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
|----------------------------------------|
| "The best tank terrain is that without |
|  anti-tank weapons."                   |
|            -Russian Military Doctrine  |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:20:30 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

At 11:10 PM 3/29/98 -0500, you wrote:

>That's fine, from a late 20th viewpoint.  Up the ante by 4,000 years and
>you'll see something entirely different.  On the other side of the coin,
>the phone service has become automated to a great degree, and although
>there have been problems, by and large such a complex system works by
>itself, and works well.  The internet's day to day workings are entirely
>automated...  Again, there are errors and problems, but by and large it is
>stable.

I don't know wether to laugh or cry.  I invite you to go to any regional
routing station for the American long distance phone lines.  You will see
chaos theory in action.  It takes human moderation to keep the computers
from crashing the system.  Remember the big AT&T blackouts?  The ones
blamed on hackers and used as justification for the trials of Phiber Optik
and the Legion of Doom and Operation Sun Devil?  Caused by *one* line of
bad code.

The news server here at hooked has the odd habit of going into a funk and
ignoring new posts.  alt.conspiracy goes from 400 messages a day, to 250,
to 35, to none.  All the while, it insists that it is retrieving everything
available.
- --
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
)      Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net     (
(          http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html        )
)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(
( A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any   )
) invention in human history--with the possible exceptions (
( of handguns and tequila.                                 )
)         Mitch Ratcliffe, Technology Review, April 1992   (
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:39:09 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Alleged!?

Took my first visit to the GURPS: Traveller page yesterday.. very nice, I
really am looking forward to the book.

But in the links section, my site is listed as holding "alleged" Traveller
humor.  Alleged! Loren, I have personnaly gone over each byte of
information to insure that it is funny.  My pages were crafted by Darrian
hacker living in trees in quaint little villages.  Do you realize how many
keyboard I have destroy by forceing other people's coffee through their noses?

Hhmph.  I know somebody who won't be leaving with the rest of the Templars
when the Rupture occurs.

(seroiously, great work on the page, and thanks for putting the link up.)
- --
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
|  Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net  |
| http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html |
|--------------------------------------------|
|Traveller Geek Code: tc+ tm+ tn- t4 tg+ tt++|                       |
|to(CORPS)++ ru+ ge++ 3i jt-- au st+ ls+ va++|
|dr+ sw++                                    |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:34:27 -0500
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #327

Loren wrote:

>'Fraid not. I was involved in the development of the Rebellion, but the
>original idea was from Tim Brown and heavily modified by Mac Miller. 

Mac is Marc's twin I believe.....

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:38:31 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Sunskimming

Talk of Elite, Sunjamming, and recent events in the Traveller campaign I'm
playing in lead me to ask about a question I've considered for a while:
     Can you scoop a sun for fuel like a gas giant?
How exactly do fuel scoops work? Do they physcially suck in atmosphere and
use a filter/catalyst to separate out the bits they want? (A physical
scoop.) Or do they use a magnetic field to attract the ionised elements
they are intersted in? (A magnetic scoop.) It would be rather hard to use
the former on a star. By the time you got close enough to have any sort of
density it would be rather hot (anyone know the temperature of the solor
corona?). The latter, though, might be of use. The sun streams all sorts of
ionised particles out all the time. I imagine you could easily go within
safe distances where the particle density was high enough to adsorb (anyone
know the density of solar wind?).
     In the game we've found this little stopover base in an "empty" hex.
The ref hasn't decided if it is a brown dwarf, an errant gas giant or what.
It sparked my curiosity. If it was a brown dwarf, or a piddly M9 star,
could we scoop it? As long as it is positioned well, you could make money
on pass-through trade with only fuel as a local resource.
     Thoughts?
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:01:35 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroid

> Around Casa Chaos we were having a hard time eating dinner with the
> constant howls of laughter.
> 
> We ended up channel hopping between Asteroid and Weird Al's movie "UHF."


OH MY GAWD that was a bad, baaad movie.  And LONG.  I thought the thing
would NEVER end.  (I rented it so didn't waste more then 2 bucks).

I kept hoping the scriptwriter would be different and just smash the
entire planet.  Would have made the movie end a lot faster.  :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:59:06 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: OK, here goes nuttin -- comments

>The following material is from the upcoming GURPS Traveller book
My first question on seeing this is "Who is the audience?" In other words
"Why are you writing this sidebar?" In my mind this product will be
targeted at three types of people: Established Traveller players starting
into GURPS, Established GURPS players buying another world-book, and first
time gamers who see the new star wars and happen to pick up this book.

For Established Traveller Players starting into GURPS, what are you trying
to convey? They already know there is no nanotechnology in the Traveller
setting. They have either already rationalized it, never wondered about it,
or were just a bit curious. If they have already rationalized it then they
have either found their own reason for it not being there or extended their
own universe to deal with it. The former will skim this side-bar and either
shrug and continue with their own excuse, or adopt yours. The latter will
skim the side-bar and may make a mental note to flick through GURPS Ultra
the next time they are in a games shop to compare with what they have come
up with.
If they never wondered about it they will probably skip the side-bar
completely during the first few passes of the book. The history of the
concept of nanotechnology section might pique their interest and the might
make a mental note to flick through GURPS Ultra but since its never been a
problem, they are unlikely to worry too much about it.
If they've been curious, but not enough to deal with it, they will probably
read the side-bar on the first pass. The history will set the ground for
them and the reasons for not having Nanotech will probably scare them
enough and sate their curiosity.

For GURPS players buying it as another worldbook, the bit about it not
being in the history of Traveller will be enough for them. They are already
familiar with the concept of worldbooks and expect each one to include or
leave things out. They are probably already aware of GURPS Ultra and know
how to graft that in if they desire.

First time gamers are likely to be in the minority. They will probably be
familiar with the concept from Star Trek and be relating to that. The
section makes it clear that you don't do this in Traveller because of all
the other implications. They will probably go away wondering more about
Star Trek (like _that's_ how the replicators work! or so why don't these
bad things happen in Trek?) than about Traveller.


In all of these cases the side-bar is, basically, a one-pass text. Any of
the above are likely to only read it once and never refer back to it. The
only reference material in it is about the history of Nanotechnology and
the other GURPS book lists. This might indicate that the whole could be
reduced down a lot to just focus on the bits that are likely to be refereed
to more than once with the minimum necessary to facility the decision trees
for the above gamers.
Personally, I'd suggest finding another bit of "Tech we don't do in
Traveller" and combine it with section. Possibly making it into a more
generic section on "There are things we ignore or handwave to preserve the
setting" with Nanotech and one other as examples.

Cheers,

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:07:23 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

> Which reminds me of a bit in an *old* Andre Norton SF novel "Star
> Rangers" (sold in paperback as "The Last Planet"). One character is
> commenting to another about the chief engineer their ship used to have.
> A robot. "He was quite good with engines, being one himself."


I have this book.  One of the very first books I ever read, along with
"Galactic Derelict" with the cool looking spherical spaceship on the
front blasting off from the paleocene desert with volcanoe erupting in
the background.  Almost looked like a photograph.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:00:55 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Constructively handwaving G:T into the Storyline

The following has been forwarded from private mail from Harold D. Hale at
his request. Please reply to him directly at hdhale0@pop.uky.edu. -Jo

At 04:03 PM 3/26/98 +0000, Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
>Greetings,
>     I appreciate the comments made by people about "Canon Storyline" and
>so forth. I make the following suggestion as a way everyone can "agree to
>differ" but still engage in positive dialog.

   <snip>

   Nice try Jo, but it still doesn't work.  G:T will never in my mind have
the same status as MT or TNE, nor should it ever--unless Marc Miller
formally declares so.  On that day, I will lose at least some portion of the
respect I have for him.

   I have signed this account off the TML and when I get home I'll sign my
account there off too.  I think its time I step back from the list for a
while, as clearly I am way in the minority when I assert that there can be
something tangible called a "Storyline Canon" or a canon timeline that
unites all Traveller players by giving them a common frame of reference, and
seperates those who write for the game into "Traveller writers" and
"Traveller variant writers".

   GURPS: Traveller is the fair haired boy of the moment.  No doubt if Loren
decides to take G:T in a direction similar to MegaTraveller, the same masses
who praise him and look forward to G:T will be the same ones will be ready
to burn SJG down and hang Mr. Wiseman from a tree.  Such is the way of the
Traveller universe.  For God sake Loren don't use the Empress Wave in G:T, I
like you too much to see you get a neck tie party.

   What really disturbs me though is the total failure of people to grasp
the concept that there *could* be something that unites us all.  Maybe it's
because we are no longer united.  Through four versions of the game we have
become nothing more than groups of hostile factions that would rather
skeptically examine everything Traveller and adapt (or adopt) it--or
not--into our local campaigns.  'Canon' is therefore a misspelling of
'cannon' which is something low tech people point at your starship causing
the crew to giggle.

   Given this, no future version of Traveller will appeal to a majority of
current Traveller fans no matter how well written or how closely it tries to
stick to the original story arc.  The real future of Traveller (if it still
has one) belongs to new fans, not Byzantines.  By creating a new majority, a
future publisher may be able one day to re-establish such concepts as
Storyline Canon.  Hopefully those who are considering having a go at
publishing Traveller material themselves will think about that.

   I hold my head up high, knowing that I stand for principle.  Time for the
tar pit Harold.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:31:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: OK, here goes nuttin -- comments

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
> For GURPS players buying it as another worldbook, the bit about it not
> being in the history of Traveller will be enough for them. They are already
> familiar with the concept of worldbooks and expect each one to include or
> leave things out. They are probably already aware of GURPS Ultra and know
> how to graft that in if they desire.

GURPS players *will* wonder why a high-tech society doesn't make use of
nanotechnology.  Other GURPS Tech books make the assumption that nanotech
becomes commmon (even pervasive) at higher tech levels, so its absence
in Traveller will be noticable.

I think that even some experienced Traveller players would like a good
(even "official") rationale for why nanotech isn't pervasive in the
Traveller universe.

> Personally, I'd suggest finding another bit of "Tech we don't do in
> Traveller" and combine it with section. Possibly making it into a more
> generic section on "There are things we ignore or handwave to preserve the
> setting" with Nanotech and one other as examples.

As long as they aren't too convoluted and dn't stretch credibility too
much, I'd prefer explanations and reasons for why the Traveller universe
is like it is.  My gaming group *will* want to know why they can't use
nanotech (or invent it) or use automated ships, etc...

This seems like a reasonable sidebar item (not main text).

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:45:11 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 03:48:22 -0500 "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> writes:
>I think expert systems AIs starting at TL10 and
>increasing in ability and sophistication over the course of the next tech
>levels.  I think that these systems would be absolutely necessary for jump,
>space-traffic control systems, starship piloting, etc.  I think the other
>brand would start at TL12 and increase in sophistication and be extremely
>useful in many areas.  In fact, the symbiotic relationships between all
>forms of technology and human beings brings us to my final chapter at the
>moment...
>


Nice post.  IMTU, robotics and expert systems appear at about TL9,
increasing in complexity and reaching  the symbiotic point at about TL
19.  Rumors have it that the ruling class of the Human Unity (my heavies)
use them extensively.  Of course, no one has yet to substantiate this.



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+)

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:25:14 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Military Campaigns

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:38:02 -0500 "Walter G. Smith"
<smithw@hartwick.edu> writes:
>james a clem wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>ROFL*******OOF!!  BANG!! *^%*%^$(&*^*&^%%$@#%$&^(*&^(*^$^%%$  (Fell 
>and
>hit my head on my chair.)
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Don't you mean, "FAHMHOMC"?
>
>:)
>

I do love a good sense of humor!       

;-)


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+)

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:01:27 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Asteroid

At 08:01 AM 3/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> Around Casa Chaos we were having a hard time eating dinner with the
>> constant howls of laughter.
>> 
>> We ended up channel hopping between Asteroid and Weird Al's movie "UHF."
>
>
>OH MY GAWD that was a bad, baaad movie.  And LONG.  I thought the thing
>would NEVER end.  (I rented it so didn't waste more then 2 bucks).
>
>I kept hoping the scriptwriter would be different and just smash the
>entire planet.  Would have made the movie end a lot faster.  :)

The biggest scream of the night came when the bimboid astronemer said "it
might hit water, which would be nearly as bad.."

The TV set is a good six feet from my couch, and I swear half a can of
nasaly projected soda reached the screen.  Could have been worse.  MST3K
showed "Prince of Space" Saturday.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:58:51 -0600
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: Asteroid

It was written:
> >Ghu, I hope I'm the only moron stupid and bored enough to sit through
> >this drivel ...
> 
You kiddin'? I _loved_ this movie! To see 2 F-14s use an onboard
"anti-ballistic laser" to *instantaneously* blow away a massive
asteroid in space. Gollie gee, it makes me want to join the U.S.
military! Now this is Sci-fi!

Of course, they got the velocity wrong; _everybody_ knows that
the only asteroid worth hitting a planet with *must* being moving
at near-c.  :-P

Still, since I live just outside of Dallas, it was fun to see it
scragged.
Then I could visit all the gaming stores in the area and take advantage
of all the post-apocalyptic sales and buy up all the GURPS books!
BWAHAHAHAHAH!!!

(Uh..hi, boss! Yes sir, I'm finishing up that documentation right now,
sir!....oops...)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #335
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, March 30 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 336



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Sunskimming
FFFB influence
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Black Market GWP (Was: Clever Criminals - I Don't Care)
Re: Gurps Conversions
Re: Asteroid
Re: Noncanon (Encore!)
Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
Re: Clever Criminals (was re: Imperial ID's)
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon
Re: OK, here goes nuttin -- comments
Re: Gurps Conversions
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Re: Sunskimming
Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:11:05 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Sunskimming

Jo_Grant wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Talk of Elite, Sunjamming, and recent events in the Traveller campaign I'm
playing in lead me to ask about a question I've considered for a while:
     Can you scoop a sun for fuel like a gas giant?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Brings to mind GDW's IMPERIUM, a boardgame of the 1st thru Nth interstellar
wars in the Traveller universe...their description of Tankers says that these
ships can retrieve and process fuel, IIRC, from "Stellar Atmospheres". They
were very useful because one of the two lines of advance on the map went
through Sirius, which has no planets at all. The Tankers did not allow fleets
to jump into deep space, you had to have these tankers in the tertiary system
(system without planets) - makes it sound like the Tankers in this game
weren't carrying fuel with them, they were gathering it on the spot.

I'd have to add that in IMPERIUM, refuelling wasn't a real problem in any other
star system - the only limit was that you had to stop movement in a system
containing enemy combat-capable ships. You could withdraw during
the combat resolution phase with no fuel problems though. Very different
that Fifth Frontier War.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:28:26 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: FFFB influence

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> types:
>> >> A German anarchist, framed by the Nazi party for bombing the
>Reichstag, and
>> >> mentioned as part of a gag in a Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers comic of
>the
>> >> 70s.
>> >Dutch, actually.
>> Dutch, Deutsch, what's a few little letters between friends : )
>> Yes, I had forgotten -- Volker is right. 
>A question, were the Freak Brothers a big influence on Traveller in the
>early days?  :^)

    They probably were a big influence on a lot of Traveller players.

"Regina Honey Wine will get you through times of no money better than money
will get through times of no Regina Honey Wine"  (slightly modified to fit
Traveller.  In my BT campaign, we would use "Meltine Meltdown").

I still remember the words of Commander Cockroach on hearing that hundreds
of his Cochroach army was killed in battle, "Plenty more were they came from."

I'm still planning on springing a Vargr based on Micky Rat on my players...


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:34:30 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, Chris Seamans wrote:
 
> Then what the hell's the point of a working passage from a roleplaying
> standpoint?  Originally, I said automating big cargo ships didn't really
> have too much of an effect on the PCs.  David Summers (I believe, please
> correct me if I'm wrong) stated that this would eliminate the need for PC
> skills...  And eliminate adventure possibilities like working passage.

The point is:

Players A, B, and C need to get to point B from Point A, and haven't got
any money. They do, however, have shipboard experience and skills. They
can try to get a working passage aboard some form of transport. They may
not be utilizing their skills as such, but they'll be recognized as people
who know what buttons not to push as they do their duties as Vending
Machine Technician 4th Class.

IMTU, working passage _can_ be found, but you're the one who gets to clean
up after the herd of live drivelbison the ship is carrying. That way the
people buying the drivelbison only have to pay one drivelbison herder to
accompany the herd, the rest are made up from unlucky ships' crew or
players looking for a free ride.

They're just not going to get a working passage as ships astrogator,
that's all.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:02:35 +0000
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Black Market GWP (Was: Clever Criminals - I Don't Care)

Loren Wiseman wrote:
> I saw on the news a year or so ago about some chap in Florida
> who started the "I Don't Care" long distance company, so when
> the operator asks which long distance company you want, you say
> "I don't care" and the operator hooks you up. The guy charges a
> penny or two more a minute than average, nothing outlandish.
> What irks me about the whole thing is this: "Entrepreneur" in
> the USA has beginning to mean "Cooking up some crackpot scheme
> to shave $.03 each off 100,000 people without your having to
> lift a finger." rather than building a better mousetrap (or
> whatever).

Actually the company is called  KPNP  which,  when  muffled,  can
sound like AT&T (or visa-versa).  The  owner  set  up  around  50
different trading  names  including  "I Don't Care",  "It Doesn't
Matter", "Anyone Will Do", etc.

But its not just  "Entrepreneurs"  that  pull  scams  like  this,
government's do too.  With only 276 days to go until  the  launch
of the Euro (European single currency) France found  it  did  not
meet one of the key  entry  requirements.  That  requirement  was
that government spending was not more than a  set  percentage  of
GDP.  Despite drastic cuts they were still too high so a way  was
found to 'raise' GDP.  French  government  figures  for  GDP  now
include an estimate of the Black Market!

Ob:Trav ... Does the GWP in Pocket Empires include  black  market
economic activity?  And is there a way to  determin/estimate  the
size of the black market in relation to GWP?



Regards PLST

<not a tagline but what the hell>--------------------------------
    Counter person at McDonald's:
        "What do you want to drink?"

    James Buckley (aristocratic candidate for senator):
        "What's your house Chablis?"
<>---------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:19:49 +0000
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Gurps Conversions

James Pearson wrote:
> Ok, all this talk abou using GURPS rules ....
> I don't have any problems with the Trav rules (I've only played
> CT and T4). What I want to know is, does anyone convert any of
> the GURPS stuff to Traveller's rules? Instead of the other way
> around? There seems to be some good material from GURPS that
> might be useful in my campaigns.

I keep meaning to convert GURPS to MT but haven't got  around  to
it yet.  However check out the conversion notes in 3G3  ...  this
should allow you to convert  from  GURPS --> 3G3 --> MT  or  from
GURPS --> 3G3 --> Twilight 2000 (which is TNE system) ... for TL,
range, damage, etc.



Regards PLST

"Space is almost infinite.  As a matter of fact, we think  it  is
infinite." -- Dan Quayle (in remarks made while he  was  head  of
the Space Council)
___________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:48:18 EST
From: DustyLV769 <DustyLV769@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroid

In a message dated 3/30/98 7:30:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,
scharlto@ifsna.com writes:

<< The dumbest one
 was another asteroid thing, which had aliens dropping asteroids on Earth's
 poles as a means of communications, and then getting annoyed when we
 decided to lob a nuke at one of the rocks.  >>

Actually I saw that same movie...and I thought it was a very good one (for
TV), but more for the implications of the difficulty of communicating w/ an
alien culture than for any other reason.

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:22:04 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Noncanon (Encore!)

On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:42:17 -0700 (MST) Bruce Johnson
<johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> writes:

>
>Check out my TL-12 version of Puff at:
>
>http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/CSC_Designs/Orbital_gunshipTL12.html
>
>6 heavy plasma cannons. Reach out and Torch someone ;-)


Reach out indeed!!!  Very nice!


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+)

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:12:48 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)

At 05:31 PM 3/28/98 -0900, you wrote:
>"Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net> wrote
>
>>  Peter Newman wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >I would suggest that the Imperial ID card has an Imperial ID number 
>> >on it.  
>> >  I think that the Imperial ID number on it will come in this format:
>> >
>> >        XX NLN NLN NLN NLN
>>
 [Snippage]
>
>What advantage or goal does specifying the home planet serve ?
>
Home planet designation helps to make the number unique and mean something
more than a string of numbers. Consider, no matter what kind of
apportionment scheme the bureaucrat devise each world will eventually run
out of numbers under a strict sequential model like you propose (usually at
the least convenient time). Any single world above say TL-3 has the
capacity to monitor ID numbers for uniqueness, but the limitations of
interstellar communication prevent instantaneous comparison. Therefore, two
individuals within a sector *could* end up with identical ID numbers.
Granted, the chance of this is very low, but possible. Furthermore,
including world ident follows the pattern I delineation stated with sector
and continuing through subsector. 

After sleeping on the subject it occurred to me that world need not be four
digits. Since there are only 80 hexes in a subsector, only two digits would
be required.

>
>"Inefficency" is _exactly_ why it is done this way.  I do not want these
>data entry clerks to be able to go very fast.  Most of the time the ID
>number will just be directly scanned in.  On those rare occasions where
>the ID number is imputed manually I want the data entry person to be
>forced to go slowly to reduce the chance of error.
>
Good sir, the last thing any sane person would deliberately want to do is
slow down any bureaucracy. :-) They are plenty slow enough of their own
inertia. Suffice to say that we must agree to disagree on this point.

[Inefficiency argument snipped]

>
>> OTOH, a ten digit hexadecimal number would allow for 16^10 or
>> 1,099,511,628,000. Over one trillion combinations per sector. Good enough?
>
>No it is not.  One or more of the Third Imperiums sectors, including the
>Solomani Rim, have populations of over 1 trillion.  Your system would
>require duplicate ID numbers for some of these people.

OK... How many subsectors exceed one trillion? Worlds?

How about this. What if the leading part of the unique part of the ID
number was a day stamp? If written in hexadecimal a four digit segment
would provide 65,536 combinations. If used one a day, the bureaucracy would
be satisfied for over 179 years. The question I wonder about is how many
births happen every 24 standard hour period on even the most populous
worlds? Six digit hexadecimal would allow for 16,777,216 combinations.
Would this be a big enough number for a population 'A' World.

For those who think I am being completely silly about numbers, my intent
with this branch of the thread is to make this unique numbers mean
something more than just a unique, long string. My inspiration is the U.S.
Social security number where the number blocks (xxx-xx-xxxx) actually refer
to IIRC locations and dates when the number was issued. While probably
minutia, I think this degree of color is a good thing.

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:58:46 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

> A friend on the SFPD told me the following:  A man walked into one of the
<much in the way of snippage>

Very funny :)

I once read a story in the paper about this bank robber (or robbers, I
forget now, it's been such a long time) who went into a bank, drew a gun,
and stated his intent to rob the place.  He ended up staring down the
barrels of a room full of guns...

The thing he missed when he cased the joint was that it was the bank that
the FBI used for payroll.

Then there was the story of the armed robber who led police on a footchase
right out of a 70s TV cop show.  Down back alleys, up fire escapes. 
Eventually he eluded them and it appeared he got away clean...  Only on one
of the fire escapes he used, the cops found his glass eye which had his
address on the reverse side.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:12:31 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Clever Criminals (was re: Imperial ID's)

> So why don't we all shoplift?  It's not really hurting anyone other than
> the giant chain store that only see us as consumers and marketing numbers.

Okay, fair enough.  Point taken.  On the other hand, I saw a show on
shoplifting relatively recently where on of the folk at Walmart or K-Mart
was being interviewed.  I left with a bad taste in my mouth as their
damages go apparently only one way...  The damages for predicted
shoplifting are already figured in.  If actual shoplifting is far lower
than average (as the TV led me to believe it was), there is no reduction in
damages the next year to account for it.  IE, if there's less shoplifting,
it's a bonus because there's this extra money floating around.

> Pirate software!  You think Microsoft will even notice if my copy of Office
> shows up on a dozen different computers?

This is a line, much like anything else, that each person must draw
individually.  I will support a company fully if I believe in them or their
product line.  Honestly, I will pirate without a second thought if I feel
that they are trying to take advantage of me in any way.  Those are my own
beliefs, and I apologize if they're not morally correct.

> Steal cable TV!  God knows that any system as bad as TCI doesn't really
> deserve my money, and I only watch six of the channels.. they'll never
> notice if I'm suddenly getting HBO and Showtime.

I have actually done this in the past.  In my area, as in most parts of the
country, there is a single cable monopoly.  This company has very bad
business practices.  You need someone to come out and fix your cable box,
terms are dictated rudely to you and freely broken without consequence. 
The prices are astonishingly high despite the percentage of homes that
purchase cable and despite the fact that the company itself has a massive
infrastructure behind it.  I live in a lower-working class neighborhood and
yet our cable prices are higher by a margin of over 100% than those in
"nicer", more affluent neighborhoods, to me this is taking advantage of
folks who really don't need to be taken advantage of).

Again, different people will choose to draw their lines in different areas
to me, my cable my area cable monopoly are clearly criminal.  I have no
problems, morally, with ripping off the criminal element.  To me, this is
theft as clearly as any other theft.

> Ooh.. Even better!  When GURPS: Traveller comes out, I'll buy one copy, and
> photocopy it for everyone.  It only takes a few dozen sales away form SJG,
> and they can absorb the blow.

This isn't where my line is drawn.  Frankly, the majority of SJG materials
I've picked up have made me want to support them.  They work hard for the
dollars that I work hard for and can appreciate that.  

> Have I made my point?  Stealing, no matter who it hurts, is wrong.  Even if
> the money is insured, that money to replce it comes from somewhere.  If the
> bank is robbed, it's insurance rates go up, so it increases it's fees.

Yes, you've made your point.  To be honest, I have been guilty of every
single one of the crimes above at one point in my life or another.  I have
my own moral and ethical code that might not be the same as the moral and
ethical code of others.  I don't have to throw a stone very far to see
injustices commited outside my very own door and the grey areas of morality
that result.  For example, I can look at the galvanizing plant down the
street when I walk five feet out of my house.  I can't smell it anymore as
I've lived so close for so long it's a normal background smell for me.  As
I walk to my grandmother's to visit, I sometimes walk closer to it to save
time and breathe in its nasty noxious fumes...  Yet, it employs a number of
people in my neighborhood that otherwise would not have jobs.  This factory
would have no ability to exist in more affluent neighborhoods.

That's not to say that my morality and ethics can't change.  I have a mixed
view of the police department.  As I grew up, I got to crunch crack vials
underfoot and see crackheads firing up in an alley only about 15 feet from
my house.  I got to be harassed constantly by the dealers and their
customers as I walked by, ("Hey kid, need an ass-kicking?").  I got to see
gang wars fought outside my house and got to see my dad have to replace his
car windows about once a month when it got warmer as a result of attempted
theft and groups of baseball armed gangbangers who wanted to beat the f*ck
out of the gang up the street...  I got to have the fun of calling 911
because there were people with bats outside beating each others brains out.
 Packs of 20 - 30 thugs smashing car windows.  I got to see the cops show
up in one or two hours, and yet I saw the same cops sitting for hours
chomping down at the local Dunkin' Donuts.  I got to see a five foot two
female bisexual friend of mine get chased down by two massive hulking
homophobes and when I thought I was doing the right thing by going to the
cops and requesting help I was threatened with arrest and told to leave
their sight because the homophobes looked less weird than I did (I tried to
track her down and she eventually got help at a coffee shop 15 blocks
away).  I had a cop threaten to "break my ribs" for the oh so serious crime
of standing outside of a club getting air after I tired of dancing. 
Obviously, as a result of this, my view of cops is pretty dim.  On the
other hand, my local police force has started a program of community
policing ("walking the beat") that really has changed my neighborhood for
the better, to the point that I feel much safer about walking a few blocks
to the store.

What's my point?  Let me see if I can express it clearly enough...  I don't
need anybody to lecture me on where my moral compass may point.  I've had
enough lectures in my short 22 years from all sides, on all kinds of
ethics, to last me far longer than I can hope to live.  Yes, I have a
mistrust bordering on seething hatred of banks and big businesses.  My
family has roots in upstate PA, I get to visit them about once a year and
get to see the wreckage that was left behind as a legacy of the coal
companies, a legacy that is still alive and thrives in other areas of
upstate PA.  These same people, my flesh and blood, are left to eke out a
meager existence on useless land, filled with anger, bitterness, and
alcohol because these oh so f*cking wonderful companies and banks have
given up on them.  They're too poor to move, and don't have the skills they
would need to survive anywhere else.  This is what I've seen with my own
pair of eyes.  This has nothing to do with shoplifting, or copying GURPS
Traveller, or anything of the sort.  This has to do with basic life and
quality of life.  A quality of life that was robbed from these people as a
result of bankers and corporations and the ways that they exploit and use
people only in so far as it is profitable and screw them when they no
longer serve a purpose.  The whole thing creates a vicious cycle that is
damned near impossible to escape from.  

And no, before anyone calls me on this, I do not have an answer to these
problems.  If I did, I'd be out achieving it, not drowning my miseries in
escapist role-playing entertainment.  I'm sorry that I am completely unable
to boil down complex ethical issues to terms of black and white as simple
as some people can.  I apologize if I see that the miserable living
conditions of my own flesh and blood are a direct result of corporations
and banks.  I apologize that this is the reality that I must live and
breathe in, and  I apologize if it's different than your own.  And yes, in
case anyone is thinking of calling me on this, I understand that the
current web of banking, commerce, and industry is what allows billions more
people to live and exist on the earth than was ever possible.  This irony
is not lost on me at all.

For the record, as my final comment, I don't want anyone to think that I am
whining about how hard my life is.  Despite any problems I may have
personally, I don't bitch and moan.  I'll carve out my own niche in life
and I'll do what I'll need to do, and my moral and ethical center will be
where it is.  In the meantime, I will continue to point out where I feel
that injustices lay and where people are being used as objects so that some
fatcat corporate exec can make an extra gazillion dollars this year.  I
will continue to rail against my state's piss poor labor laws that allow
companies to get away with gross injustices against, for example, my
mother.  And, I will continue to rail against these corporations that enact
these injustices against my mother.  This company that is trying everything
in the book (with the exception of actually firing her) to make my mother
so uncomfortable in the workplace that she'll leave after almost three
decades of working her ass off, so that they don't have to pay her the
extra money she's earned in that time period...  And the fact that she has
no legal recourse, even though this is obviously what's happening.

Y'know, actually, the more I think about it, the more this really pisses me
off.  Like, I need somebody to come along and lecture me about how
wonderful and lovely and sweet big businesses are and that even though we
are being ripped off and screwed we shouldn't pirate Microsoft or steal
cable?

Whatever.  Sorry for taking up list space.  I'd rather clear this up once
in public rather than several times in private e-mail.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:02:43 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon

> From: dberry@hooked.net
> 
> I don't know wether to laugh or cry.  I invite you to go to any regional
> routing station for the American long distance phone lines.  You will see
> chaos theory in action.  It takes human moderation to keep the computers
> from crashing the system.  Remember the big AT&T blackouts?  The ones
> blamed on hackers and used as justification for the trials of Phiber Optik
> and the Legion of Doom and Operation Sun Devil?  Caused by *one* line of
> bad code.

Yes.  If I remember it right, wasn't it a missing semi-colon??  Anyway, yes
there are errors, and yes that at our current level of technology
automation isn't absolutely perfect.  I don't think I am arguing that. 
However, on the whole, would you say that our modern day phone service is
more automated, or more run by human beings?

> The news server here at hooked has the odd habit of going into a funk and
> ignoring new posts.  alt.conspiracy goes from 400 messages a day, to 250,
> to 35, to none.  All the while, it insists that it is retrieving everything
> available.

Again, I believe I stated that there are errors, but, by and large there
are far less massive Internet blackouts then would would imagine with the
mind-boggling complexity of such a vast, interconnected network.  The
internet, in my opinion, is stable.  At least from my end.  There are lags,
servers go down, there are software errors, etc...

But the whole still functions in an automated manner and stays up, despite
the various predictions to the contrary that were spouted when the Internet
craze was born.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:35:05 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: OK, here goes nuttin -- comments

> From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
> 
> For Established Traveller Players starting into GURPS, what are you trying
> to convey? They already know there is no nanotechnology in the Traveller
> setting. They have either already rationalized it, never wondered about it,

My reading of the same paragraph seemed to imply that nanotech exists in
the Traveller setting, it's just not super advanced.

> If they never wondered about it they will probably skip the side-bar
> completely during the first few passes of the book. The history of the
> concept of nanotechnology section might pique their interest and the might
> make a mental note to flick through GURPS Ultra but since its never been a
> problem, they are unlikely to worry too much about it.

Or perhaps their brains will begin working and think of all the interesting
ways even limited nanotech could impact their game universe.

> First time gamers are likely to be in the minority. They will probably be
> familiar with the concept from Star Trek and be relating to that. The
> section makes it clear that you don't do this in Traveller because of all
> the other implications. They will probably go away wondering more about
> Star Trek (like _that's_ how the replicators work! or so why don't these
> bad things happen in Trek?) than about Traveller.

You make first time gamers sound pretty stupid.  You're also leaving out a
whole group of possible targets for the book, probably a minority, but a
group that is at least represented in my own game.  Folks that are not
first time gamers, but are not familiar with GURPS, and who happen to be
highly interested in emergent technologies.

Not to beat a dead horse, but my brother lost interest in Traveller in the
early/mid 80s when it became apparent that Traveller was far slower to
change than the real world.  Nowadays, he has stated plainly that Traveller
as it is played "by the book" does not interest him in the least because it
doesn't even mention the possible effects of emergent technologies.  My
brother is a relatively rare case, I'm sure, but that's where his interests
lie.  Even the lack of a mention of such things is enough to drive him off.

Another member of my campaign is going to school for physics, and hopes to
one day work in the field of nanotechnology.  This is his gig, and this is
what he's interested in.  Again, although he has not clearly stated it as
my brother has, a lack of a mention of why nanotech isn't used might turn
him off from playing the game.

I don't know the number of folks who are like these two.  Statistically,
I'm sure that they're in the vast minority.  But, you'd be surprised at the
number of people who have heard about nanotech from other sources than Star
Trek.

> Personally, I'd suggest finding another bit of "Tech we don't do in
> Traveller" and combine it with section. Possibly making it into a more
> generic section on "There are things we ignore or handwave to preserve the
> setting" with Nanotech and one other as examples.

I agree.  The whole thing should be combined into a more extensive section.
 However, I'm not sure that cutting it down in size would help it too much.
 You've got to define the ultimate result of nanotech (MEMs, "smart fog",
"grey goo") so that readers of the book will know where Traveller draws the
line and makes its limits.  Not everyone knows all about nanotech, and some
who do have a passing knowledge that doesn't result in realizing that total
manipulation of matter will be the result of such technologies.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:09:40 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Gurps Conversions

> From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
> 
> "Space is almost infinite.  As a matter of fact, we think  it  is
> infinite." -- Dan Quayle (in remarks made while he  was  head  of
> the Space Council)

The closest I've ever come to ruining my keyboard while reading the TML.

;^)

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:15:30 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> 
> The point is:
> 
> Players A, B, and C need to get to point B from Point A, and haven't got
> any money. They do, however, have shipboard experience and skills. They
> can try to get a working passage aboard some form of transport. They may
> not be utilizing their skills as such, but they'll be recognized as people
> who know what buttons not to push as they do their duties as Vending
> Machine Technician 4th Class.

To me this is as great a sin as automating it so that it just doesn't
happen.  There's little or no adventure possibilities stemming from it.  It
smacks of contrivance.  We've gone from PCs being able to use their
valuable hard earned skills to PCs not using their hard earned skills but
more or less riding free in the space of a week...

> They're just not going to get a working passage as ships astrogator,
> that's all.

Well, I guess the only thing I can say is that IMTU they're not going to
get working passage on any sort of megagigantic cargo ship at all.  Chalk
it up to different playing styles I guess.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:21:11 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Sunskimming

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:38:31 +0000 Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com writes:

>The ref hasn't decided if it is a brown dwarf, an errant gas giant or 
>what.
>It sparked my curiosity. If it was a brown dwarf, or a piddly M9 star,
>could we scoop it? 


If its a brown dwarf it seems reasonable that you could, as if it were a
truly huge gas giant.  If its an M? you may not be able to, without some
type globe or super alloy.  I can't lay my hands on my star data right
off, but I seem to remember the surface temperature of M class stars is
somewhere in the 2000 - 3000 deg. C range.  We're melting steel here, but
the real problem is, what if the corona is like those of our sun's.  The
corona surrounding our sun is about 100,000 deg. C (if I remember right,
I might be off by a factor of 10).  Its one of the mysteries of our sun. 
Even if you design a system able to scoop the plasma from a cool star,
the coronal temperatures might make it unapproachable.  I'd suggest that
you bribe, cajol, threaten your GM to make it a brown dwarf.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+)

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:33:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)

On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, Brian A. Howard wrote:
> For those who think I am being completely silly about numbers, my intent
> with this branch of the thread is to make this unique numbers mean
> something more than just a unique, long string. My inspiration is the U.S.
> Social security number where the number blocks (xxx-xx-xxxx) actually refer
> to IIRC locations and dates when the number was issued. While probably
> minutia, I think this degree of color is a good thing.

I would be interested in finding out how they determine social security
numbers since the only inquiry I ever heard of received a curt and very
final denial followed by a click.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #336
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Traveller-digest       Monday, March 30 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 337



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)
Re: Sunskimming
Re: Sunskimming
Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: Sunskimming
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
Re: Ancients
Re: Military Campaigns
Re: Sunskimming
Re: Clever Criminals (was re: Imperial ID's)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #334
Re: Asteroid
[T98#331] Sekhoma
Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)
Looking for Players in SoCal
My take on automation...
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Re: Noncanon (Encore!)
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon
re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
Assorted
Re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:53:34 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)

At 01:33 PM 3/30/98 -0600, Bolie Williams IV wrote:
>I would be interested in finding out how they determine social security
>numbers since the only inquiry I ever heard of received a curt and very
>final denial followed by a click.
>
>

I probably have the details wrong, but I think the first three digits have
to do with the date of issue in some sort of arcane code. The second two
refer to the location of the office from which the application was
processed. The final four are a unique code, specific to the applicant.
Like I said, this probably wrong, but I remember hearing something to this
effect. Maybe I learned this on the TML? ;->


Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:57:37 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Sunskimming

>>[can one skim from a brown dwarf or m-dwarf]
>If its a brown dwarf it seems reasonable that you could, as if it were a
>truly huge gas giant.
One problem is surface gravity; typical brown dwarf surface gravity is in
the 30-G range. Skimming trajectories probably don't require thrusts > 
surface gravity (as long as you're doing the skimming at near-orbital
velocities, you can come in on a long skinny elliptical orbit) but those
gravities are high enough to make even this approach problematical (the
velocities involved would be painfully high.) A generous referee might
allow a very very tough pilot task to find a trajectory that would work,
if the ship was Hypersonic streamlined.

>If its an M? you may not be able to, without some
>type globe or super alloy.  I can't lay my hands on my star data right
>off, but I seem to remember the surface temperature of M class stars is
>somewhere in the 2000 - 3000 deg. C range.  We're melting steel here
superdense and crystaliron can probably survive this (starship waste
heat radiators require temperatures in the 2000 K range.) Sensors and
antennae wouldn't be happy - apply a bunch of surface hits to the leading
edge of the ship. Cooling the ship overall would also be a problem.
The best approach would be to skim way way out in the tenuous outer edges
of the atmosphere, where you could radiate waste heat away from the star...
it would probably take several days and require a bunch of engineering
rolls to keep the heat balance right.

>the real problem is, what if the corona is like those of our sun's.  The
>corona surrounding our sun is about 100,000 deg. C 

Corona temperatures are a few million degrees, but the corona is sufficiently
tenuous that it doesn't convey any significant amount of heat - like passing
your hand quickly through a candle flame, sort of. The photosphere
(the few thousand K regions) are where you get heat from.

In summary, skimming from a (small) brown dwarf is probably an Impossible
pilot task (failure indicates that you're stuck in the brown dwarf).
Skimming from a star might take ten times as long as normal, with a
Formidable engineering roll every few hours, with failure increasing the
ships interior temperature and two consecutive failures causing damage
to crew and ship components. (Plus, every surface fixture on the sun-facing
side of the ship gets melted off.) Ships with EMM or other thermal masking
would make the roll one level easier, since they have surplus radiator capacity
and plumbing to cool the hull.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:29:09 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Sunskimming

>On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:38:31 +0000 Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com writes:
>
>>The ref hasn't decided if it is a brown dwarf, an errant gas giant or
>>what.
[snip]
>  I'd suggest that you bribe, cajol, threaten your GM to make it a brown dwarf.

Hig GM already has a story line where refueling in the empty hex should be
possible.  He'll start looking at cometary bodies if this doesn't work out.

Incidentially, this is all from The Traveller Adventure which has no actual
base, but I wanted a base dammit (just a station, with refuelling
capabilities) and I'm gonna get one...What good is being the GM optherwise.

Of course, if I *knew* Jo was going to want to make it into a casino...

Pete


Trav Geek Code!
tc tm++ tn- t4 tg? tu ge+ 3i+ jt- au st+ ls kk++ h+ as va++ dr so- zh- vi+
da+ sy

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:08:27 -0600
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

A couple thoughts- 

Automation - while no doubt it will increase in the future, there's going
to be a point where very few people will have jobs, because they've all
been replaced by automation - much like you don't see elevator operators
anymore, there probably won't be any need for factory workers in the
future. Eventually, a society will have to decide just how much automation
they want, because virtually every job I can think of, save perhaps
scientist, can be replaced by some sort of automation. And once AI's
exists, scientists can be replaced....

Robots - Much like above, robots take away jobs from humans. Eventually,
there won't be any jobs left. Will people like this? Possibly, but I really
don't think so. The majority of people I know like working, or would, if
it's something they like doing.

There's also cost - would you buy a robot that cost millions of credits to
fill a job, or would you hire a guy whose salary is 100,000 credits a year?


Nanotechnology - While it can be perhaps very very useful, it's also very
very dangerous. Nanomachines going amok could conceivably wipe out the
human race. I just don't think it's going to be widely used, due to the
potential danger. Look at how cloning has been banned, and it's not really
dangerous. Given the small size of nanomachines, I'd think they'd be
extremely prone to get damaged, and er  'mutate'. One or two incidents
early in the 1st Imperium (or Earth's future), and people will abandon it.
Look at nuclear (fission) power - people really don't like it after 3 Mile
Island.

And finally, remember that the tech level of the imperium varies from place
to place, just like it does on Earth.  This will definitely affect things.
I can seem some places being automated - hi tech, low pop worlds, mostly. 
A lot of places won't have the tech for automation and the like. And some
that do won't use it, for whatever reasons.

                                        Jeremy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:12:34 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Sunskimming

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:29:09 -0500 "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
writes:

>
>Hig GM already has a story line where refueling in the empty hex 
>should be
>possible.  He'll start looking at cometary bodies if this doesn't work 
>out.


Now, using cometary bodies is a good idea, I've used it before.  My First
CT campaign (oh, how long ago that was....) had the players finding an
abandoned alien base in the Oort Cloud of a small planetless star far
from the local lanes.  Part of the base, and what they loved, was the use
of a small fusion plant, fuel purifiers, and tankage to convert comets
into fuel.  They made a fair deal of money off it as well.  Of course,
when the local pirates found out, they had quite a fight on their hands. 



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:24:28 -0800
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

And then there was the bank teller who, after being told "This is a
holdup, give me $50,000.", reached under the counter, pushed the alarm
button, and immediately produced a consideral number of forms. She then
told the robber "You will have to fill in each of these forms in order
to establish an account for withdrawals." The thief, caught off guard,
remarked "I've never heard of such a stupid thing.", to which the teller
answered "Listen, I don't make the rules, but I have to work by them, so
make my job easier and fill in the forms". The constabulary arrived to
apprehend the character during the completion of his seventh form.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:24:22 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Ancients

Pearson Publishing wrote:
> 
> I seem to recall that someone mentioned having some info about the
> Ancients on their website.  I'd appreciate the URL.  Thanks
> James Pearson
Yup, thats me!
Just check out my web-adress in my signature
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:39:15 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Military Campaigns

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> ROFL*******OOF!!  BANG!! *^%*%^$(&*^*&^%%$@#%$&^(*&^(*^$^%%$  (Fell and
> hit my head on my chair.)
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Don't you mean, "FAHMHOMC"?
Splurt!!! Damn, need another keyboard soon now!

> "the mome rath hasn't been born that can outgrabe me..."
Good one, too!

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:27:39 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Sunskimming

james a clem wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:38:31 +0000 Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com writes:
>
> >The ref hasn't decided if it is a brown dwarf, an errant gas giant or
> >what.
> >It sparked my curiosity. If it was a brown dwarf, or a piddly M9 star,
> >could we scoop it?
>
> If its a brown dwarf it seems reasonable that you could, as if it were a
> truly huge gas giant.  If its an M? you may not be able to, without some
> type globe or super alloy.  I can't lay my hands on my star data right
> off, but I seem to remember the surface temperature of M class stars is
> somewhere in the 2000 - 3000 deg. C range.  We're melting steel here, but
> the real problem is, what if the corona is like those of our sun's.  The
> corona surrounding our sun is about 100,000 deg. C (if I remember right,
> I might be off by a factor of 10).  Its one of the mysteries of our sun.
> Even if you design a system able to scoop the plasma from a cool star,
> the coronal temperatures might make it unapproachable.  I'd suggest that
> you bribe, cajol, threaten your GM to make it a brown dwarf.

Wasn't there a scene in Mote in God's Eye where starships travelled through
the outer atmosphere of a large red giant?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:46:51 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Clever Criminals (was re: Imperial ID's)

"Chris" wrote:

>Okay, fair enough.  Point taken.  On the other hand, I saw a show on

[snip]

>Y'know, actually, the more I think about it, the more this really pisses me
>off.  Like, I need somebody to come along and lecture me about how
>wonderful and lovely and sweet big businesses are and that even though we
>are being ripped off and screwed we shouldn't pirate Microsoft or steal
>cable?

I _told_ you guys that Semo had been replaced by the Thing.  But did anyone
listen?  NoooooOOO!  You thought I was trying to be FUNNY.

Let's see how hard you're laughing when his scofflaw pod-person "friends"
steal your commodity fetishes and put you to work in GODLESS ATHEIST
DOPE-FARMING COMMUNES!!!!

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

tc+ ?tmn4 !tg ge+@ 3i- jt- st- ls- kk hi+ as-- va dr+ so+(-) zh+ vi+ da-- !sy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:00:47
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #334

At 08:12 AM 30/03/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Traveller-digest       Monday, March 30 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 334
>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon
>
>
>According to the tech notes in some T4 books, "roadgrids" which allow
>autopiloting of grav vehicles in populated areas are extremely common. 
>

Technical point - roadgrids are common *on Sylea* ... the capital of the
Empire, and one of it's most economically developed worlds. It's also a
civil service bureaucracy, with a high law level, so people there
presumably dont mind a bunch of 'this is for your own good' regulation.

>
>The world of the Imperium is completely ludicrous without automation. 
>Automated factories churn out starships, air/rafts, plasma weapons and all
>manner of other goods. 

Quick warning on this. Completely automated factories that churn out things
forever will completely restructure the economy of the Imperium. Factories
with a high degree of automation wont. 

>
>ROBOTS
>
>My view of the future was strongly influenced by this book, especially the
>future of control systems.  As one example, instead of the old school
>sci-fi view of a maid robot that wanders around cleaning and fixing and
>keeping the house in order, dozens or hundreds of small, cheap robots would
>do the same job.  If your maid robot blows a widget, you have to repair it
>or replace it, in the meantime, your house doesn't get vacuumed, your pets
>don't get fed, and your vidscreen gets dusty.  If your cheap vacuumbot
>blows a widget, the robot that picks up larger debris will still do its
>job, and it'll be much easier to repair or replace it.  This, at least to
>me, is a much more fascinating snapshot of the future.  Instead of Tweekies
>and R2D2s running around booping and bleeping, houses, starships,
>workplaces, and space stations would become thriving mechanical hives... 
>The complex webs and combinations that will result will make the future of
>robotics a far more organic prospect.  None of these ideas really pose a
>threat to canon.  In fact, their right in step.  No need for highly
>intelligent super robots or anything of the sort.  
>

Just so we can kick numbers around, how much would these microbots cost,
and how many would you need to keep, say, a Type S scout (1400 m3, 4 small
staterooms) clean ?

How long do they last (I assume you wont bother to repair them) ?

How does this relate to average Imperial income of 6-12 000 credits a year ?

In short, are these minibots a thing for the rich, or are they for everyone ?

>COMPUTERS or "Let me tell you a WOPR of a tale!"
>
>
>
>These ideas are not all that threatening to canon, as you could put the
>expert systems between TL12 and 15, and the funkier ones at TL17.  My own
>tastes as quite different, as most folks who have read my previous posts
>will already know.  I think expert systems AIs starting at TL10 and
>increasing in ability and sophistication over the course of the next tech
>levels.  I think that these systems would be absolutely necessary for jump,
>space-traffic control systems, starship piloting, etc.  

Neccessary, or sufficient ? I think you wont get an argument on
'neccessary' for a jump, because a working starship computer has always
been required to make a jump.

Piloting, on the other hand, should be able to be done with guts, a steady
hand and either working sensors or a Mark 1 eyeball :)

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:05:40 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Asteroid

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:58:51 -0600, you wrote:


>You kiddin'? I _loved_ this movie! To see 2 F-14s use an onboard
>"anti-ballistic laser" to *instantaneously* blow away a massive
>asteroid in space. Gollie gee, it makes me want to join the U.S.
>military! Now this is Sci-fi!

This movie should have been called "FEMA to the Rescue!", especially
when they successfully evacuated Kansas City out to 200 miles in two
days (?!?!?!).

I think the producer was trying to see how many inaccuracies he put
into the film in the first hour. After Dallas got whapped, I gave up
on it and went to the X-files....

John Lansford

http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 00:01:40 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#331] Sekhoma

On Sat, 28 Mar 1998 21:38:33 -0500, jpettit@ix.netcom.com (Joseph
Pettit) wrote:

>Subject: Re: Games People Play: Sekhoma

>First of all the game you describe IS poker. You just use a different 
>deck.  Note that with 6 suits and 6 numbers in each suit (two times), 
>the very worst hand you can get is one pair. You will have at least two 
>of one suit (lest you get Sekhoma) and at least a pair of numbers (lest 
>you have a straight) but it doesn't appear that the values of the cards 
>have any bearing (except highest wins) its all about suits (flushes 
>count but not straights).

This is correct - in all particulars except for your statement
that it _is_ Poker - it's not; although it is, as I indicated, a
strong family resemblance.

>                          Maybe it is a bit different from poker in 
>that respect.  Now you could throw in some nasty tricks about people 
>playing the same suits and making a certain suit worthless if certain 
>cards are played. i.e. if three people play one suit and one person 
>plays a different suit but lesser hand, he wins because the first suit 
>was negated by the three other players.

No, I don't think so - but perhaps if the highest hand is tied,
the second highest hand gets the pot.  I'll have to think about
it.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:54:59 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)

For sure the first three are  the state.  Mine is 587, only found in
Mississippi, my wives is 544, found in Oregon and my daughters is 012, found
in Massachusetts.  I don't know about the other numbers.
Thom
- -----Original Message-----
From: Brian A. Howard <bruadh@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, March 30, 1998 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)


>At 01:33 PM 3/30/98 -0600, Bolie Williams IV wrote:
>>I would be interested in finding out how they determine social security
>>numbers since the only inquiry I ever heard of received a curt and very
>>final denial followed by a click.
>>
>>
> I probably have the details wrong, but I think the first three digits have
>to do with the date of issue in some sort of arcane code. The second two
>refer to the location of the office from which the application was
>processed. The final four are a unique code, specific to the applicant.
>Like I said, this probably wrong, but I remember hearing something to this
>effect. Maybe I learned this on the TML? ;->
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Brian A. Howard
>
>Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
>For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.
>
>http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:58:20 -0800 (PST)
From: John-Paul Kastner <kastnerj@pe.net>
Subject: Looking for Players in SoCal

	I'm looking for people interested in setting up a campaign in
Southern California, or to join one already in progress.  Please contact
me at kastnerj@pe.net.

J.P. Kastner

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:06:01 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: My take on automation...

Telephones are reliable, but you still need people monitoring the network.
Speaking as a former telephone programmer, while the software is
(possibly) the most reliable on the planet, the authors are _not_ liable
for damages. Fixing problems (or to be more precise, spotting potential
problems and preventing them from turning into real problems) is what
telephone companies keep their engineers around for. That and repairing
damage caused by careless backhoe operators!


I assume that Traveller starships are already automated, incuding whatever
robotics are appropriate for the tech level. Does this mean that high-tech
crews have less to do?  No, because I also assume that the workload has
also changed. This seems to be a universal trait (in our culture, at
least): when the job gets easier be increase the workload, or add tasks
that were previously unnecessary. 

Example 1: cleaning. We now bathe once a day (on average),before running
water this was once a month (if that). During the fifties and sixties all
the labour-saving devices in the home merely changed the standards of
cleanliness so that the time spent on housework was the same. (I mean, who
really needs daily vacuuming?)

Example 2: engineering. We no longer spend a lot of time doing intricate
mathematical calculations. Instead, our computers do the calculations and
we spend our time writing reports about the answers the computer gives us.
(I remember when a vice-president killed most of a one-hour meeting trying
to get consensus on the _font_ that would be used for an internal report!)

Example 3: teaching. When my mother taught she spent most of her time
working with students. Now I spend 1-3 hours a day fiddling with
paperwork: writing curriculum, performance metrics, psychological
assessments... stuff that wasn't considered necessary in my mother's day.


So, in Traveller terms this means that a TL15 crew still has work to do.
Repairing machines, checking up on the automatic systems, and trying to
anticipate problems and avert them before they become crises.  A TL11
crewmember may envy them their 'free time', without realizing what's been
added to the workload.  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:29:39 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

Thanks tons Doug,  I'll be cleaning diet coke off my monitor and keyboard
for a week!  This is too much for a quasi-sane hoo-man to take.
Thom

- -----Original Message-----
From: dberry@hooked.net <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, March 30, 1998 10:09 AM
Subject: (Not So) Clever Criminals


>Since people are discussing bank robbers, I thought I'd see if I could get
>Bruce to destroy yet another keyboard.


>| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:38:54 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

Sat, 28 Mar 1998 23:15:53 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>

> > Your summary is sort of accurate.  It also has little resemblence
> > that I can see to the idea that megacorps are stupic (unless you
> > want to invoke the idea that only your vision of them can be
> > "smart") or that not being able to do off planet background
> > checks means that they hire anyone with any skill level, or
> > that this would mean that megacorps can't exist.  None of
> > this follows from what I said...
> 
> Okay, you've got this huge corporation...  Let's say Delgado, they're nice
> and diverse.  They've got cargo ships being sent out from their factories
> on some high population industrial world with holds full of holographic
> toys.
> 
> Without even an attempt to screen pilots, astrogators or whatever, they
> don't know what they're getting themselves in to.

Not being able to conduct interstellar background checks is not
anywhere near the same thing as not making any attempt to screen 
people.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:48:28 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Noncanon (Encore!)

- -----Original Message-----
From: james a clem <warmind@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Noncanon (Encore!)
><johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> writes:
>>Check out my TL-12 version of Puff at:
>>http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/CSC_Designs/Orbital_gunshipTL12.html
>>6 heavy plasma cannons. Reach out and Torch someone ;-)
>
>Reach out indeed!!!  Very nice!
>Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.


Those are called "Crowd Pleasers".
Thom (Tongue in cheek) Harris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:09:50 -0600
From: "Chris Miller" <ironstar@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon

>
>> Also, if you don't double check the guys work, or have the computer
>double
>> check what is entered with what it thinks it's destination to be.  (Could
>> be done by the Nav computer cross referencing with the Library program on
>> expected facilities at the point of arrival, vs. what the actual
>> coordinates are listed as having.)
>
>Then you have starship automation.  If the computer is good enough to check
>the human's work to make sure that it's right...
>


- ---------->So my spell checker can write books now, eh?

Chris Miller

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:31:52 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)

> Oh, yeah, another thing for the TravGeek Code: jump drives: 
> 
> jd++ 	- I use canonical jump drives, with hydrogen injection mass 
> 	etc. 
> jd+ 	- I use jump drives, but they use fuel as that - fuel. 
> jd 	- well, I never had to explain how does the drive work to my 
> 	players, so I'm not sure
> jd- 	- my jump drives are a bit different (say, jump-2 goes through 
> 	one parsec in half a week) 
> jd-- 	- jump drives? I use hyperdrive/stutterwarp/wormholes/whatever

Well, I wouldn't include the highly questionable implication that
injection mass is "cononical".  Or that this deserves the most
"pro jump drive" code.  If you want to cover both the question
of whether people use Traveller type jump drive (vs stutterwarp,
etc.) and also what explination they use for jump drives, them
make two different codes.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:40:25 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation and Canon

> 2) Automated ships (even if allowed by Imperial law, which I'd recommend
> against) will only be cargo ships.  Even here, I'd expect the automation
> to only cover pilot and astrogation.

Well, you are a lot better of if you only seek to invoke "partial 
automation" (though you still have same issue with PC involvement).
As I have said, it isn't clear to me that canon necessarily says
what you need to man a ship during jump (it allows one person
with multiple skill sets, but doesn't demand which skills they
be).  It does have some issues with crew requirement rules
that would have be handwaved....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:42:15 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Assorted

Doug said:,

>I know somebody who won't be leaving with the rest of the Templars
>when the Rupture occurs.

Templars? Templars go tourist class. My ticket is for the very same ship as
the Rev Ivan Stang himself. I have an autographed copy of the original Bookof
the SubGenius to prove it.

> (seroiously, great work on the page, and thanks for putting the link up.)

WIsh I could take credit for it...someone else did it.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:21:55 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)

Leszek Karlik, attempting to ingratiate himself with the ever-nearing
People's Liberation Fleet, wrote:

>On 27 Mar 98, Robert Eaglestone disseminated foul Templar
>propaganda by writing:
>
><snip IMTU code>
>
>This code is worthless!!! There's no entry for Sayat!!
>
>I propose using "say for Sayat". ;>
>
>Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl;
>http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
>Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO;
>SNAFU; TANJ
>  IMTU ?tc t4+ to++ ru-- ge++ !3I jt au- !st ls !kk hi++ as+ !so !vi !sy say++

Very good, alien primate protocomrade!  We shall be sure to single you out
for genetic rehabilitation and cultural uplift immediately after Earth is
freed from the noxious claws of Yaskodray and his technocratic Templar
toadies.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #337
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 31 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 338



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Assorted
Re: Asteroid
RE:(Not So) Clever Criminals
A Couple of Questions...
Re: OK, here goes nuttin
A question 
Re: Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #334
Re: Sunskimming
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon
Starship/vehicle automation
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
Re: Asteroid
Re: Any doctors out there?
Re: A question 
Re: A Couple of Questions...
Re: Any doctors out there?
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 20:43:42 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Assorted

On 03/30/98 at 08:42 PM,  GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com> said:

>Doug said:,

>>I know somebody who won't be leaving with the rest of the Templars
>>when the Rupture occurs.

Rupture?

>Templars? Templars go tourist class. My ticket is for the very same ship
>as the Rev Ivan Stang himself. I have an autographed copy of the original
>Bookof the SubGenius to prove it.

OH!!! Rapture!  That makes more sense. I thought somebody was in need of a
truss, or something.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:41:19 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Asteroid

At 08:01 AM 30/03/98 -0800, J-man wrote:
>> Around Casa Chaos we were having a hard time eating dinner with the
>> constant howls of laughter.
>> 
>> We ended up channel hopping between Asteroid and Weird Al's movie "UHF."
>
>
>OH MY GAWD that was a bad, baaad movie.  And LONG.  I thought the thing
>would NEVER end.  (I rented it so didn't waste more then 2 bucks).
>
>I kept hoping the scriptwriter would be different and just smash the
>entire planet.  Would have made the movie end a lot faster.  :)
>
I just realised that you're talking about the piece of crap that screened
here in two parts a while back. It was so crap that even my know-nothing
flatmates worked out that it was bullshit.

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:01:49 -0800
From: "Makens, Brian" <brian.makens@plpt.com>
Subject: RE:(Not So) Clever Criminals

When I lived in Boston during the Mid 80's, The Boston
Globe had a short article that began:
"Somebody is a dead man, and the dumb idiot probably
doesn't even know it"

Seems a certain young thug late one night, went into
a 7-11 store in North Boston(the Italian part of town), and
proceeded to rob the place. To make the point to the
clerk that he was serious, he pistol-whipped the elderly
gentleman in line to buy cigarettes, while not paying any 
attention to the big black limo out front, and the burly customer
standing beside the elderly gentleman.

Bad Move.. Elderly Gentleman's occupation..
Head of Boston Family of La Costra Nostra

There were a whole log of "investigators" out looking to
find the young man, and the great majority weren't associated
with the Boston PD.

To put this in a Traveller context...
When role-playing rogues in Regina, don't
go to a "Sun and World" store in the Vargr
District, and pistol whip an elderly Vargr,
who has a big black luxury grav car out front, and
who is accompanied by a "friend" who seems to
share a lot of genetic tendancies with Dobermans.. 
It would be "bad"....

Brian Makens

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:38:10 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: A Couple of Questions...

Hiya everyone. I just have a couple of quick questions (please bear 
in mind that I haven't gotten any of the T4 books yet, since I'm a 
bit leery of IG viability and waiting for T4.1):

1. I remember someone saying several days ago that there were 
actually *three* Traveller mailing lists. Where should I e-mail to 
subscribe to the other two lists?

2. Why does the QSDS & SSDS stop at 5000 dt? Could the FFSv2 system 
be used to create ships that are larger, and if so, does FFS itself 
have a upper tonnage limit?

3. Has anyone done any "third-party work" that would expand SSDS (or 
FFS, if it's limited) to include ships with displacement tonnages 
similar to the old CT ships (generated under High Guard rules)?

I'm sorry if some of these questions might be a bit silly, but I'm 
just getting back into Traveller after about a 12 year hiatus and 
I'm not that familiar with anything other than CT.

Thanks in advance,

Bob Kondrk
- ------------------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ
dss2@erols.com

Webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:42:37 -0500
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: OK, here goes nuttin

At 09:29 PM 3/27/1998 EST, you wrote:
>Perhaps it is time I started feeding bits of the stuff to the list for
>appraisal. 

Nicely put, Loren, especially in pointing out how
ubiquitous nanotech can hamper adventure opportunities
for human (or whatever) adventurers.[A couple of
nukes could probably have disabled the Death Star's main 
weapon for a few weeks, but then it just wouldn't
be Sat wars...]

However (you knew there's be one, right?), 
one more point you might like to sneak in
is the fact that, once released, self-replicating
nanites would have to deal with the same problem
biological systems do -- replication error.
And if the error is such that it does not
cause "sterility", you've got a bunch of 
nanites that won't be following their original 
programming -- evolution in progress.

If nanites were used to turn a world's previous
population your house, would _you_ feel secure
that *all* of those nanites had been deacivated?
Or might there be a few faulty ones, brewing up
their numbers to continue their mission -- on you!

JB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:04:44 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: A question 

Hmmm... 

I wouldn't like to ignite any old flamewars, so I'll try to tread
lightly here. 

You see, IMnrsTbsSFU[1] Earth was hit by a FLKETTD[2]. 

[1] In My not so really Traveller, but still SF Universe 
[2] Fractional-Lightspeed Kinetic Energy Transferral Terraforming
Device. ;>

The event has lead to a treaty between the Federation and the Empire,
that banned weapons of planetary destruction (such as 'grey goo'
nanobots and near-c rocks), but I'm not sure of one thing - can I call
it "Treaty of Earth Asteroid Belt"? 

That is, what will happen with the remains of the poor, pulverised
Earth? I guess they will form an asteroid ring, but how fast? 

And did Templars guide the rock? Err. Forget I've said that. 

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  IMTU ?tc t4+ to++ ru-- ge++ !3I jt au- jd- !st ls !kk hi++ as+ !so !vi !sy say++
    Are you certain you are not the Devil? - Lancelot 
Yeah, sure. Don't you smell the brimstone? And my right hoof is killing me. - Corwin 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:11:51 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

> Automation - while no doubt it will increase in the future, there's going
> to be a point where very few people will have jobs, because they've all
> been replaced by automation - much like you don't see elevator operators
> anymore, there probably won't be any need for factory workers in the
> future. Eventually, a society will have to decide just how much
automation
> they want, because virtually every job I can think of, save perhaps
> scientist, can be replaced by some sort of automation. And once AI's
> exists, scientists can be replaced....

Hmmm...  I don't see this same vision of the future, based on the past and
the present.  Automation eleminates jobs, but, it also creates the ability
for a wider infrastructure which creates more jobs.  My brother was telling
me about the early days when my dad was working his way through college. 
My dad, an electrical engineer, used a slide rule for calculations.  Then,
a little later he bought his first calculator.  It was a major purchase, it
was _second hand_.  One of those things I find truly amazing, a _second
hand_ calculator.  The calculator allowed him to do things quicker and with
much more accuracy.  Now, he uses a computer networked with many other
computers at his job.  The complexity of work that he can handle, and the
speed that he can get it done, has increased off the scale...  CAD programs
and complex simulations have replaced the slide rule and hand calculations.
 Quite an impressive jump.  When my brother went to high school, the
teachers wouldn't allow calculators in their math classes...  They were
afraid that students would rely on them too much as a crutch.  Then, when I
went to the same high school a few years later, you were required to have a
calculator for the very same classes.

Automation eliminates roles, but it also changes others immensely.  I'm not
sure that the trend towards automation will suddenly fall by the wayside
because the average Joe gets put out of a job.  That hasn't stopped it so
far, and the average Joes are still finding jobs.

 > Robots - Much like above, robots take away jobs from humans. Eventually,
> there won't be any jobs left. Will people like this? Possibly, but I
really
> don't think so. The majority of people I know like working, or would, if
> it's something they like doing.

It doesn't matter if people like it.  For example, as I said under
different circumstances in a different post...  automation allows an
increased population, and allows rampant population growth.  The majority
of people in the world get fed as a result of this network, and the
backbone of this network is a wide variety of forms of automation.

Previous to the mid-18th century, there were roughly 1/3rd of a million
people wandering around on the planet.  When this level was reached, it
basically topped off and didn't change too much for 1,000s of years. 
Automation has allowed the world population to skyrocket to something like
6,000,000,000.  I like being alive more than I like having a job,
personally.  So whether individuals will like automation or not is less
important when weighed against the fact that the same automation makes
their very existence possible.

Call me optimistic, but, I think that people will still work side by side
with machines as they do today, and have for many, many years.  Whether the
machines are rodent-like automatons, superintelligent number-crunching
expert systems, or huge steam driven clothing presses the result will still
be humans working hand in hand with them.

> There's also cost - would you buy a robot that cost millions of credits
to
> fill a job, or would you hire a guy whose salary is 100,000 credits a
year?

I don't know.  The robot doesn't take vacation, never needs a sick day, and
may be able to handle certain tasks far better than a human being.  The
robot will (probably) never complain about his job, will never give his two
weeks, and doesn't have to get a raise...  The phone company has replaced
people behind counters connecting phone wires on request with 'robotic'
versions of the same exact thing, at a far greater cost than the salaries
of the operators.  Many companies have done similar things in real life...

> Nanotechnology - While it can be perhaps very very useful, it's also very
> very dangerous. Nanomachines going amok could conceivably wipe out the
> human race. I just don't think it's going to be widely used, due to the
> potential danger. Look at how cloning has been banned, and it's not really
> dangerous. Given the small size of nanomachines, I'd think they'd be
> extremely prone to get damaged, and er  'mutate'. One or two incidents
> early in the 1st Imperium (or Earth's future), and people will abandon
it.
> Look at nuclear (fission) power - people really don't like it after 3
Mile
> Island.

Human cloning, the buzzword of modern day pop-bio-engineering has been
"universally" outlawed.  Folks rail against the idea claiming 'you can't
clone a human soul!' and similar battle cries.  When our understanding of
the results of today's theory turns into cheap bio-engineering 20 years
down the line, and some hyper-capitalist Asian market churns out the first
human clones, that's when we can talk about this.

Nukes are dangerous.  Fission plants are dangerous.  Coal power plants are
dangerous.  Complex chemicals used in manufacturing are dangerous. 
Bio-engineered viruses are dangerous...

Yet these things still exist and are researched.  Currently, the Japanese
are pouring hundreds of millions of dollars (if not billions by now) into
nanotech, and NASA has a fair portion of its budget thrown that way.  It
doesn't seem to me that the dangers are scaring anyone off yet.

Bio-chemical weapons are 'bad', very 'bad', but they are still designed and
manufactured in factories in the United States and Europe, not to mention
the rest of the world.

> And finally, remember that the tech level of the imperium varies from place
> to place, just like it does on Earth.  This will definitely affect things.
> I can seem some places being automated - hi tech, low pop worlds, mostly.

> A lot of places won't have the tech for automation and the like. And some
> that do won't use it, for whatever reasons.

This goes against any concept of reality though.  The world was of lower
population before the dawn of automation, and it's not even that
sophisticated yet.  Any world with a TL of 6+ (if not lower) will begin
building an automated industrial infrastructure.  Hardly need high-tech to
get it off the ground.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:28:51 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #334

> From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> Technical point - roadgrids are common *on Sylea* ... the capital of the
> Empire, and one of it's most economically developed worlds. It's also a
> civil service bureaucracy, with a high law level, so people there
> presumably dont mind a bunch of 'this is for your own good' regulation.

Okay.  I should read my sources more closely.  Although, you've come up
with a really interesting point about government types and law levels that
I'll have to think about.

> Quick warning on this. Completely automated factories that churn out things
> forever will completely restructure the economy of the Imperium. Factories
> with a high degree of automation wont. 

As with anything, IMTU I'd put a person at the top of the chain here.  I
don't think that there'd be a need to create factories that chug away
almost pointlessly forever.

> Just so we can kick numbers around, how much would these microbots cost,
> and how many would you need to keep, say, a Type S scout (1400 m3, 4 small
> staterooms) clean ?

Funny you should mention that, I was going to do a little piece on some of
the more common versions of these robots.

> How long do they last (I assume you wont bother to repair them) ?

Depends.  They'd be cheap enough to be disposable if they did break down. 
In this case, I honestly don't have the specifics mapped out.  My
gearheading was coming later.  That's the way I work, I bring up an idea,
or get involved in a discussion, I think about the idea, then I do the work
in rough draft form, then finished form within a few weeks.

> How does this relate to average Imperial income of 6-12 000 credits a year ?

Cheap.  Really cheap is my goal.  I'd have to eyeball it a bit to tweak it,
but everyone could have them if they needed them.

> In short, are these minibots a thing for the rich, or are they for everyone ?

The way I envision them they'd be as common as telephones, vacuum cleaners,
and what not in our own society.

> Neccessary, or sufficient ? I think you wont get an argument on
> 'neccessary' for a jump, because a working starship computer has always
> been required to make a jump.

Hmmm...  Good point.  I think that at the very least, a highly efficient
form of computer would be the absolute bare minimum to attempt a jump.  I
mean, unlike Foundation, I somehow doubt there's going to be some guy
pouring over charts with a slide-rule erasing and redrawing lines.

I dunno.  I think that such systems would be required for a jump to have
some assurance of safety. 

> Piloting, on the other hand, should be able to be done with guts, a steady
> hand and either working sensors or a Mark 1 eyeball :)

It is able to be done with guts, a steady hand and working sensors...  But,
the Imperium wouldn't always trust guts, a steady hand, and working sensors
 :^)

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:11:47 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Sunskimming

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:
> Wasn't there a scene in Mote in God's Eye where starships travelled through
> the outer atmosphere of a large red giant?

Yes, but this was not very healthy for the ship. And as traveller
starships do not usually have Langston spheres (black globes?) they would
probably be incinerated. Even BGs would be overloading pretty soon..

- --
Mikko Parviainen
 IMTU tc+ tm++ tn+ ru+ ge++ 3i+ jt-- jd++ pi au st- ls kk hi++ dr++ as+
va+ so- zh+ da++ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 03:27:29 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon

> >Then you have starship automation.  If the computer is good enough to check
> >the human's work to make sure that it's right...
> >
>
> ---------->So my spell checker can write books now, eh?

This is that fuzzy "creativity" angle in AI.  Can your spellchecker write
books?  No.  Was your spell checker created to write books?  Nope.  Can
your spell checker drive a car?  Can your spellchecker do something it was
not programmed to do?  No.

Let me restate more clearly:  If a machine can be programmed to check and
correct a jump course, why couldn't the same machine be written to enter
the jump course in the first place?  The function doesn't seem to be wildly
different.

However, the function of writing a book and checking spelling are worlds
apart.  

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 04:39:13 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Starship/vehicle automation

Hello,
  Don't the small crewing levels (at least for PC-sized ships) already
represent extensive assumed automation? A one or two place Scout either
represents massive overwork or the personnel are simply watching the
computers that are running the software that is watching the tell-tales.

  This sort of assumes that the data that needs to be monitored is more
along the lines of a small factory/refinery/power plant, rather than a
couple of dials on the dashboard.

  Admittedly, it also assumes that software (/"expert systems") is limited
in performance or capabilities, such that humans trained sufficiently to
make informed, autonomous, intelligent decisions being on the spot is then
desirable.

  This still leaves room for robots as grunt labourers, warbots (Hivers &
Zho's certainly like `em), traffic enforcement, missiles, bank tellers/ATMs,
but not armed police ("oops - bad bug. Shoot / shout are not related...").

  What, a subsidized trader under HG is the size of a large trawler or small
factory ship, costs around MCr 100, and has nearly 400m(^3) of drive spaces,
and has a listed crew of five (and could probably operate with 2 if you allow
for massive substance abuse as stress-reduction)?

  There are some problems with Strikers AFV crew #'s, but MT's crew/automation
rules should handle those. Refs can always use the robot rules to hook a skill
0 or 1 brain up to the controls.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 04:03:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

In mail you write:

> I once read a story in the paper about this bank robber (or robbers, I
> forget now, it's been such a long time) who went into a bank, drew a gun,
> and stated his intent to rob the place.  He ended up staring down the
> barrels of a room full of guns...
>
> The thing he missed when he cased the joint was that it was the bank that
> the FBI used for payroll.

As I heard it, the bank was on the 9th(?) floor of a building in
Manhattan. There was an FBI office on the 6th floor. And it was payday
for the agents. He was *so* unlucky that he was the *only* person in
the branch at the time who wasn't either a bank employee or an FBI agent!

Robber: "This is a hold-up!"
<sounds of *lots* of guns being cocked>
Other customers: "FBI! You're under arrest!"

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:17:07 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Asteroid

>I think the producer was trying to see how many inaccuracies he put
>into the film in the first hour. After Dallas got whapped, I gave up
>on it and went to the X-files....
>
>John Lansford

Have you seen Starship Troopers? My Trav group has coined the phrase
"Verhoen physics" for cases such as the coffee mug detection of nearby
asteroids.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:49:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Any doctors out there?

 
> >>example: Ivonova's medical condition made no sense. She would either
> >>be OK, or dead, but not a trauma that would somehow give her d"days
> >>or weeks to live." What could it be but infection? 
> 
> I can offer a counterexample.
> 
> Last spring the brother of one of my kids was murdered. He was beaten over
> the head, suffered severe hemoraging, and the doctors figured he only had
> a few days to live. (During this time my kid and the rest of the family
> kept a bedside watch during visiting hours, talking to him in the hopes
> that he could hear even if he couldn't respond.) Then he made a miraculous
> recovery, and was sent home. Then a week later a weakened blood vessel
> broke, and he died in his sister's arms.
> 
> So, trauma can give you a limited time to live. 
 
But not _predictably_ days or hours to live. What happened was
typical, they think somebody is OK, but something pops up later and
they crump. Damara maintains (she was actually home last night :-)
that the ones that they typically don't think will make it usually
don't wake up. And the ones that do wake up don't elicit a "well,
this one has only days or hours to live!" responce.

Again, I have no doubt that this happens, but the docs don't usually
pronounce somebody mortally wounded who can still talk, etc. They
obviously wanted a speaking Ivonova who was mortally wounded, it
just isn't likely once she gets to medical care.

ObTrav: Culturally, what does ihgher TL medical care do? Are people
more or less willing to take risks? If they don't, they might be
able to afford analgathics by the time they retire. They can also
get fixed up if they get into a trauma... This is the kind of path
Niven took (looking at cultural implications of medical
improvements, that is) with the organ bank stories.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:54:30 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: A question 

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:04:44 +0000 "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike"
<trrkt@friko.onet.pl> writes:
>Hmmm... 
>
>I wouldn't like to ignite any old flamewars, so I'll try to tread
>lightly here. 


(Sounds of little feet padding on the floor)


>You see, IMnrsTbsSFU[1] Earth was hit by a FLKETTD[2]. 

OUCH!!!

>
>[1] In My not so really Traveller, but still SF Universe 
>[2] Fractional-Lightspeed Kinetic Energy Transferral Terraforming
>Device. ;>

**ROFL**


>
>That is, what will happen with the remains of the poor, pulverised
>Earth? I guess they will form an asteroid ring, but how fast? 

I can't say how long precisely, but it'll take a lot longer than your
player's characters will live.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:50:53 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: A Couple of Questions...

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:38:10 +0000 "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
writes:



>2. Why does the QSDS & SSDS stop at 5000 dt? Could the FFSv2 system 
>be used to create ships that are larger, and if so, does FFS itself 
>have a upper tonnage limit?


Welcome back friend, I know the feeling.  As to why QSDS stops at 5000
dT, I don't know, but I have FFS2 and if has the 1,000,000 dT limit like
High Guard.  Of course, I cant accept that, so I extrapolate for things
over that limit.  

Can you say 10,000,000 dT Colonial Transport?  {:o      I knew you could.

>
>I'm sorry if some of these questions might be a bit silly, but I'm 
>just getting back into Traveller after about a 12 year hiatus and 
>I'm not that familiar with anything other than CT.

Silly?  Not at all.  The only silly question is the one you don't ask.




Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:09:25 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Any doctors out there?

On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> ObTrav: Culturally, what does ihgher TL medical care do? Are people
> more or less willing to take risks? If they don't, they might be
> able to afford analgathics by the time they retire. They can also
> get fixed up if they get into a trauma... This is the kind of path
> Niven took (looking at cultural implications of medical
> improvements, that is) with the organ bank stories.

Most likely if people really believe that medical care is better, they
will take more risks.  When airbags were installed in cars at the
urging of the insurance industry, accidents became more common and
more expensive even though the driver survived with less injury.
Anti-lock brakes have done the same thing.  People drive faster through
bad conditions because they feel safe knowing that they have anti-lock
brakes and airbags.  This sense of security is sometimes false, but
that doesn't stop people from pushing limits.  Apparently, when
seatbelts became mandatory, the number of auto-pedestrian accidents
increased.  The point of all this is that people are willing to take
a certain amount of risk and when you make things safer they will
do more so that they are back at the same level of risk.  Of course,
this all depends on the perception of risk and doesn't necessarily
relate to the actual risk.

Now if faith in medical care for trauma doesn't increase but anti-
aging drugs became available, then I could see people becoming much
more conservative since they would have much more to lose... would
you risk your life knowing you had potentially 1000 years of life
ahead of you?  What about if you had 10?  It's quite a difference...

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:24:20 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> 
> As I heard it, the bank was on the 9th(?) floor of a building in
> Manhattan. There was an FBI office on the 6th floor. And it was payday
> for the agents. He was *so* unlucky that he was the *only* person in
> the branch at the time who wasn't either a bank employee or an FBI agent!
> 
> Robber: "This is a hold-up!"
> <sounds of *lots* of guns being cocked>
> Other customers: "FBI! You're under arrest!"

Scary thought for a criminal.  :^)

As I learned last night from the film "The Newton Boys," one of the members
of the gang went on to rob a bank at the ripe old age of 77 in 1968.  He
was caught and lived out the remaining years of his life in a rest home.

I try to imagine my grandmother robbing a bank.

Scary thought.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #338
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, March 31 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 339



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Discussion of Free Traders etc...
Re: My take on automation...
Re: +D-D controversy
Re: Starship/vehicle automation
Re: FFFB influence
Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: A Couple of Questions...
Re: OK, here goes nuttin
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
MM:T4 Hardcover release...?
Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
Re: Starship/vehicle automation
Re: Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
Re: A Couple of Questions...
TravList:
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
Re: Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read	  on.
Re: TravList:
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
Philosophy?
Re: Philosophy?
Re: Philosophy?
Re: Philosophy?
Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5
Re: Philosophy?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:34:42 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders etc...

Chris Seamans writes:

>Okay, you've got this huge corporation...  Let's say Delgado, they're nice
>and diverse.  They've got cargo ships being sent out from their factories
>on some high population industrial world with holds full of holographic toys.
> 
>Without even an attempt to screen pilots, astrogators or whatever, they
>don't know what they're getting themselves in to.  So let's say they hire
>this guy to be their astrogator.  He jumps the whole ship and crew into
>deep space, on purpose because he is a member of a group that believes that
>Delgado's involvement in the weapons industry is wrong.

There's a middle ground between hiring just anybody without so much as a
background check and waiting months for a background check to go through.
If a Delgado captain suddenly lost his astrogator, he'd might decide to
just jump without getting a replacement. Big cargo ships would have several
astrogators. If he'd lost several and absolutely needed one, he'd first try
to get a replacement from another Delgado ship who happened to have a
suitable 4th Officer they could spare. If no one was available, he'd try to
borrow or steal one from a well-established local company. If that didn't
work he'd try to get one that was born on the planet or at least had lived
there for a long time. And if he finally had to make do with an absolute
unknown, he'd do the crucial work himself and keep a wary eye on the
newcomer.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:12:34 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: My take on automation...

>So, in Traveller terms this means that a TL15 crew still has work to do.
>Repairing machines, checking up on the automatic systems, and trying to
>anticipate problems and avert them before they become crises.  A TL11
>crewmember may envy them their 'free time', without realizing what's been
>added to the workload.

Your analogies work well in realtime but not (IMHO) in Traveller because
most of your added workloads at higher TLs are bureocratic in nature but
the Imperium is for trading etc a homogenous culture but with oddly
different shipbuilding TL. If a TL 15 crew fill their time with intricate
administrative issues why aren't the TL 12 guys required the same amount of
paperwork? Isn't the bureocracy dictated by laws that apply to all ships or
is there different levels of compliancy required for different TLs?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:36:53 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: +D-D controversy

On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:10:06 -0600 "Richard A. Flores" <cybernot@gte.net>
writes:
>Has anyone actually tried playtesting this new wrinkle?
>
>
>

I ran across this post while cleaning up my email.  Could someone fill me
in on what this is?

Thanks.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:04:20 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Starship/vehicle automation

At 04:39 AM 3/31/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Hello,
>  Don't the small crewing levels (at least for PC-sized ships) already
>represent extensive assumed automation? A one or two place Scout either
>represents massive overwork or the personnel are simply watching the
>computers that are running the software that is watching the tell-tales.

I would also take this opportunity to point out that in FFS2, you can
choose what level of automation you want.  At Low automation, control
panels are fixed, the coputer is removed from any decision making, and the
crew requirement is high.  At Standard, the computer can assume some of the
routine operations, controls can be reconfigured, but a sizeable crew is
needed to properly run the ship.  High automation has the computer almost
in charge, with the sophonts on board providing little more than
supervision and control over critical evolutions (take off and landing, et
al.)

<snip>

>  This still leaves room for robots as grunt labourers, warbots (Hivers &
>Zho's certainly like `em), traffic enforcement, missiles, bank tellers/ATMs,
>but not armed police ("oops - bad bug. Shoot / shout are not related...").

When working with automated systems, I like to do flow charts for their
decision making (god, I love having a computer to make those for me!)  This
prevents me from playing a non-sentient security bot as an inquisitive person.


- --
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
|  Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net  |
| http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html |
|--------------------------------------------|
|Traveller Geek Code: tc+ tm+ tn- t4 tg+ tt++|                       |
|to(CORPS)++ ru+ ge++ 3i jt-- au st+ ls+ va++|
|dr+ sw++                                    |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:52:27 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: FFFB influence

At 12:28 PM 3/30/98 -0500, you wrote:

>I still remember the words of Commander Cockroach on hearing that hundreds
>of his Cochroach army was killed in battle, "Plenty more were they came from."


That's actually based on a comment made by mao during the period when the
PRC and the Soviets were engaged in artillery duels across their border.
When a soviet diplomat threatened that they would kill millions, Mao calmly
replied "good, less mouths to feed."  The soviets quietly backed down.


- --
+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:08:07 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

Note:  Every prediction of the future technological development
of society has been way off, usually embarassingly so.  Such
predictions should be regarded as a guideline to what _might_
happen, but not to what _will_ or _won't_ happen.  Similarly,
any criticism of a background based on extroplotating technology
past the near future is dubious at best.  You just can't say
enough to say that it really is wrong.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:47:27 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Couple of Questions...

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Robert Kondrk wrote:
 
> 2. Why does the QSDS & SSDS stop at 5000 dt? Could the FFSv2 system 
> be used to create ships that are larger, and if so, does FFS itself 
> have a upper tonnage limit?
> 
> 3. Has anyone done any "third-party work" that would expand SSDS (or 
> FFS, if it's limited) to include ships with displacement tonnages 
> similar to the old CT ships (generated under High Guard rules)?

Ok answers for some:

2: QSDS and SSDS were originally designed as ways of makingships for
player characters, hence the rather arbitrary 5000dTon limit. This is not
a universally liked state of affairs. 

FFS, on the other hand, will allow you to create a ship as large as a
sector if you really, _really_ wanted to do something silly. actually,
there was some discussion regarding planet sized structures some time back
on this list. Teh upshot was there's no way you could design a hollow
vessel that size..it couldn't hold itself up in the middle. 

Once upon a long time ago someone posted the underlying equations for the
QSDS (or SSDS I disremember which) tables which would allow, in theory
bumping up the hull size.

However, you also have to remember the oringinal game rationale for these
systems, that these systems represented standardized small ship
construction methods, again, emphasis on the _small_.

3. Some previous HG-> T4 conversion has been done in the past and posted
on the list. I can't remember when, searching through the archives at
ftp.mpgn.com would turn it up. IIRC they would have been posted sometime
last summer or fall. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:49:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: OK, here goes nuttin

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, John H Bogan Jr wrote:
 
> If nanites were used to turn a world's previous
> population your house, would _you_ feel secure
> that *all* of those nanites had been deacivated?
> Or might there be a few faulty ones, brewing up
> their numbers to continue their mission -- on you!

Ooohh cool! sort of a 'Screamers' kinda plot!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:57:41 EST
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

I got one that's all most as funny. Some knucklehead decides to rob an Irish
bar in Queens (I think, or maybe it was Brooklyn?). when he draws, EVERYBODY,
including the bartender draws too. It was the local watering hole for the
Precinct; oops.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:59:23 -0800
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
Subject: MM:T4 Hardcover release...?

All:

Does anybody know when Marc Miller's Traveller Deluxe Hardcover is to be
released? Anyone?

Patiently Waiting,
- --

Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only
one even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people
get what they deserve."   --Zena Marley

DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not
be the opinion of my school or electronic courier. For that matter, it
may not be your opinion, but deal with it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:07:26 EST
From: DustyLV769 <DustyLV769@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)

In a message dated 3/30/98 11:34:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, bolie@io.com
writes:

<< I would be interested in finding out how they determine social security
 numbers since the only inquiry I ever heard of received a curt and very
 final denial followed by a click.  >>

As a former law enforcement officer, I can tell you that the first 3 digits
refer to the state that the card was issued in (which in most cases now is the
state you were born in, but not always; I was born in Kansas, but didn't get
my card till I was here in Las Vegas at age 10, hence the 530 number in my
soc.)

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:11:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Chris Seamans wrote:

> > From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> > 
> > As I heard it, the bank was on the 9th(?) floor of a building in
> > Manhattan. There was an FBI office on the 6th floor. And it was payday
> > for the agents. He was *so* unlucky that he was the *only* person in
> > the branch at the time who wasn't either a bank employee or an FBI agent!
> > 
> > Robber: "This is a hold-up!"
> > <sounds of *lots* of guns being cocked>
> > Other customers: "FBI! You're under arrest!"
> 
> Scary thought for a criminal.  :^)
> 
> As I learned last night from the film "The Newton Boys," one of the members
> of the gang went on to rob a bank at the ripe old age of 77 in 1968.  He
> was caught and lived out the remaining years of his life in a rest home.
> 
> I try to imagine my grandmother robbing a bank.
> 
> Scary thought.

been done...go rent "The Sunshine Boys" ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:16:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starship/vehicle automation

I saw something on 'Extreme Machines' last night...a TLC series, this one
was about Aircraft Carriers and thier advances over the years leading up
to the modern carrier group. While they were discussing how modern carrier
aircraft take off, they mentioned that FA-18 pilots are _required_ to show
hands off the stick during takeoff; the computers handle everything. You
can see it, too, they take off hanging on to some bar above the
instruments. Apparently they then have to grab the stick to continue
flying.

Clarifications/corrections from the real Navy types here gratefully
appreciated.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 07:27:14 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

At 07:11 PM 30/03/98 -0500, Semo wrote:

>Previous to the mid-18th century, there were roughly 1/3rd of a million
>people wandering around on the planet.  When this level was reached, it
>basically topped off and didn't change too much for 1,000s of years. 
>Automation has allowed the world population to skyrocket to something like
>6,000,000,000.  I like being alive more than I like having a job,
>personally.  So whether individuals will like automation or not is less
>important when weighed against the fact that the same automation makes
>their very existence possible.

I presume you mean 1/3 of a billion. Even mille age europe had over ten
times you 1/3 of a million.


- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:55:10 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

At 12:57 PM 3/31/98 EST, you wrote:
>I got one that's all most as funny. Some knucklehead decides to rob an Irish
>bar in Queens (I think, or maybe it was Brooklyn?). when he draws, EVERYBODY,
>including the bartender draws too. It was the local watering hole for the
>Precinct; oops.
>
>

Didn't I see this one in Hill Street blues many years ago?


Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:39:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Couple of Questions...

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Robert Kondrk wrote:

> 2. Why does the QSDS & SSDS stop at 5000 dt? Could the FFSv2 system 
> be used to create ships that are larger, and if so, does FFS itself 
> have a upper tonnage limit?

The main upper tonnage limit in FFS is brought about by limits on surface
area; use of surface area for some systems becomes more efficient at
higher TLs.  This can be exceeded by "house fixes" such as grapple booms,
radiator fins, and plasma vents (the latter with associated extra fuel
consumption).  IMTU HEPlaR drives also function as a plasma vents.

> 3. Has anyone done any "third-party work" that would expand SSDS (or 
> FFS, if it's limited) to include ships with displacement tonnages 
> similar to the old CT ships (generated under High Guard rules)?

Battle Rider (associated with FFS1) had *play stats* for various large CT
/ MT ships (I'm assuming those are the ones you mean, like the Planet
class CA), but detailed FFS design figures were omitted.  The largest FFS
design ever published in full detail was, I beleive, about 5000 dt, but I
haven't seen all the Challenge articles.  I have designed several warships
in the 10,000 - 100,000 ton range without breaking any rules.

> I'm sorry if some of these questions might be a bit silly, but I'm 
> just getting back into Traveller after about a 12 year hiatus and 
> I'm not that familiar with anything other than CT.

Not silly at all.  Also, the CT rules still work by themselves.  :)


Ciao,
Clark


- --
"Remember, if you see a flash:  It's Duck!  And Cover!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:39:11 EST
From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
Subject: TravList:

 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:39:37 EST
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

That's probably where Hill Street Blues got it from. I have heard the story
enough in enough cities (besides New York, I heard it happened in Chicago, and
Boston), that I think that it has now become urban legend. This could be an
amusing thread in a Traveller adventure. Try holding up the favorite cantina
of the Duke of Regina's Huscarles, and see what happens....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:25:28 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read	  on.

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

>At 07:11 PM 30/03/98 -0500, Semo wrote:
>
>>Previous to the mid-18th century, there were roughly 1/3rd of a million
>>people wandering around on the planet.  When this level was reached, it
>>basically topped off and didn't change too much for 1,000s of years.
>>Automation has allowed the world population to skyrocket to something like
>>6,000,000,000.  I like being alive more than I like having a job,
>>personally.  So whether individuals will like automation or not is less
>>important when weighed against the fact that the same automation makes
>>their very existence possible.
>
>I presume you mean 1/3 of a billion. Even mille age europe had over ten
>times you 1/3 of a million.

Still not very on the mark, IIRC: mid-16th century China alone had over 1/3
billion.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

tc+ !tg ge+@ 3i- jt- st- ls- kk hi+ as-- va dr+ so+(-) zh+ vi+ da-- !sy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:30:17 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: TravList:

Interesting message.  Obviously a comentary on the void of space.

- ----------
> From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: TravList:
> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 3:39 PM
> 
>  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:40:53 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

I have only one thing to say.  Has everyone seen Robo-Cop 2?

- ----------
> From: Brian A. Howard <bruadh@earthlink.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 1:55 PM
> 
> At 12:57 PM 3/31/98 EST, you wrote:
> >I got one that's all most as funny. Some knucklehead decides to rob an
Irish
> >bar in Queens (I think, or maybe it was Brooklyn?). when he draws, EVERYBODY,
> >including the bartender draws too. It was the local watering hole for the
> >Precinct; oops.
> >
> >
> 
> Didn't I see this one in Hill Street blues many years ago?
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Brian A. Howard
> 
> Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
> For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:50:49 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Philosophy?

The universe is imperfect, and we cannot be the part of it that we would
wish.

I can never fix the universe. 
I cannot make it perfect. 
I cannot make it fit together like it should.

I can change a small part of it,but never the part I would choose to
change.

I can do what I think is right NOW. 
Tomorrow, that may be something different. 
Tomorrow, then, I will do differently.

Complaining, backbiting and hairsplitting achieve nothing. 
Striving mightily often also achieves nothing.

The Zulus say: If we go forward, we die. If we go back, we die. It is
better to go forward.

So it is. 

I will do what I can in this imperfect world. 
I will not criticise others, though I may disagree with them, for doing as
they think is right. 
I ask only that they do the same for me.

I may be misguided.
I cannot know. 
Am I true to my beliefs, or pig-headed?

There is no answer, for all answers are opinions. 
There is no One True Way in daily life.

Only God is perfect. 
I can merely do my best.

So I shall.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:25:04 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> The universe is imperfect, and we cannot be the part of it that we would
> wish.
>

[Much clippage]

>
>
> Only God is perfect.

I could have done without this line.

> I can merely do my best.
>
> So I shall.
>
> MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:24:36 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

At 06:25 PM 3/31/98 -0500, Joe Petit wrote:
>MJ Dougherty wrote:
>> The universe is imperfect, and we cannot be the part of it that we would
>> wish.

True.

>[Much clippage]

>> Only God is perfect.

Agreed.

>I could have done without this line.

I find it makes more sense with it.

>> I can merely do my best.
>>
>> So I shall.

As you say. 
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:40:30 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

> > The universe is imperfect, and we cannot be the part of it that we would
> > wish.

	What, if anything, does this have to do with Traveller?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:53:37 -0600
From: "Chris Miller" <ironstar@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5

>>
>> ---------> Anyone with a stucco house using a mesh framework is pretty
well
>> shielded too.
>
>Not unless that mesh is a lot finer than I remember it being.
>

- -------> 'Round here it's roughly a half-inch gap. Given a low-powered radar
unit and the mesh being a part of a wall, that's going to sap most of the
utility from this device. Unless you want to walk up and just "shine" it in
a window...

Chris Miller

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:04:36 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

talisman wrote:
> 
> > > The universe is imperfect, and we cannot be the part of it that we
> would
> > > wish.
> 
>         What, if anything, does this have to do with Traveller?

You haven't been following the thread on automation, have you?  ;)

douglas

- -- 
IMTU tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #339
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 1 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 340



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Philosophy?
Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon
Body detection RADAR (Was Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part  34.5)
Hi tech and Maximum ship sizes in FFS2
Re: TravList:
Re: Philosophy?
Re: Philosophy? Ob. Trav
Re: Imperial ID
Re: Asteroid
Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read   on.
Re: Starship/vehicle automation
Re: FFFB influence
FarFuture Announcement
Re: A question
Re: Imperial ID
Re: Asteroid
Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, readon.
T6
Re: FarFuture Announcement
IG and SP Join the Titanic was: FarFuture Announcement
Re: Asteroid
Re: My take on automation...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:04:40 +1000 (EST)
From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, talisman wrote:

> > > The universe is imperfect, and we cannot be the part of it that we would
> > > wish.
> 
> 	What, if anything, does this have to do with Traveller?
> 
> 

Um, maybe it's trying to explain human nature and the 3I with respect to
something... ah stuff it, I've no idea... :?


Dave 'Davechan' Moodie
*****************************************************
* The Many Faces of Washu                           *
* http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/kingston/196 *
*****************************************************
Whad'ya mean? There's no goblin cute as me!
- -----------------------------------------------------
tc+  tm++ tn++ t4-  tg   ru++ ge+  3i-  jt   au+  st+
ls   kk   hi+  as   va   dr+  so-  zh   vi   da+  sy-
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 19:13:33 -0600
From: "Chris Miller" <ironstar@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion of Free Traders, Technology, Automation andCanon

>> >Then you have starship automation.  If the computer is good enough to
>check
>> >the human's work to make sure that it's right...
>> >
>>
>> ---------->So my spell checker can write books now, eh?
>
>This is that fuzzy "creativity" angle in AI.  Can your spellchecker write
>books?  No.  Was your spell checker created to write books?  Nope.  Can
>your spell checker drive a car?  Can your spellchecker do something it was
>not programmed to do?  No.
>
>Let me restate more clearly:  If a machine can be programmed to check and
>correct a jump course, why couldn't the same machine be written to enter
>the jump course in the first place?  The function doesn't seem to be wildly
>different.
>
>However, the function of writing a book and checking spelling are worlds
>apart.
>
>Chris
>semo@pil.net
>
- -------> I was being flip - what you describe is the big problem. I'd say
the sticky part is does the computer know enough to suggest a _better_
course? I think we can assume the navigator is using the computer while
plotting the course, but how much could the computer do on its own? I assume
there is some element which requires a human - a modern day computer-game is
made using computers at every step for graphics, sound, etc  - the process
could not be completed without a computer, yet it also cannot be completed
with only a computer. I'll have to look, but I think CT allowed a Nav
program, which could replace a navigator, the programs were always portrayed
as second-best to a human.

Chris Miller

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 19:21:59 -0600
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Body detection RADAR (Was Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part  34.5)

> Chris Miller wrote:
> >>>
> >>>---------> Anyone with a stucco house using a mesh framework is pretty
> >>>well shielded too.
> >>
> >>Not unless that mesh is a lot finer than I remember it being.
> >>
>
> -------> 'Round here it's roughly a half-inch gap. Given a low-powered radar
>unit and the mesh being a part of a wall, that's going to sap most of the
>utility from this device. Unless you want to walk up and just "shine" it in
>a window...

Naw. Shining a radar unit through a window will just get you shot.
Shining a laser sight while wearing IRLA goggles...that's the ticket.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 04:17:02
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Hi tech and Maximum ship sizes in FFS2

>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #334
>
>Okay.  I should read my sources more closely.  Although, you've come up
>with a really interesting point about government types and law levels that
>I'll have to think about.
>

If you have PE, have a look at and think about the other 'social' factors -
Culture, Self-Determination, Pluralism, Progression, Planning, Advancement,
Growth, Militancy, Unity and Tolerance.

>As with anything, IMTU I'd put a person at the top of the chain here.  I
>don't think that there'd be a need to create factories that chug away
>almost pointlessly forever.
>

Ummm, so you can export the goods and sell them to other people ? One of
the 'core' assumptions is that the 3I is a capitalist free-market.

If my completely automated factory can churn out goods at 80% of the cost
of your made-by-humans operation, the odds are that I am going to eat you
alive in the price-sensitive markets.

>
>> Neccessary, or sufficient ? I think you wont get an argument on
>> 'neccessary' for a jump, because a working starship computer has always
>> been required to make a jump.
>
>Hmmm...  Good point.  I think that at the very least, a highly efficient
>form of computer would be the absolute bare minimum to attempt a jump.  I
>mean, unlike Foundation, I somehow doubt there's going to be some guy
>pouring over charts with a slide-rule erasing and redrawing lines.
>
>I dunno.  I think that such systems would be required for a jump to have
>some assurance of safety. 
>

I agree. The key question is do you need the pilot and/or astrogator as
well as the computer ?

>It is able to be done with guts, a steady hand and working sensors...  But,
>the Imperium wouldn't always trust guts, a steady hand, and working sensors
> :^)

Where did I say 'legally' ? *grin*

>
>Chris
>semo@pil.net
>
>Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:50:53 -0500
>From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
>Subject: Re: A Couple of Questions...
>
>On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:38:10 +0000 "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
>writes:
>
>Welcome back friend, I know the feeling.  As to why QSDS stops at 5000
>dT, I don't know, but I have FFS2 and if has the 1,000,000 dT limit like
>High Guard.  Of course, I cant accept that, so I extrapolate for things
>over that limit.  

In FFS2, Table 159 (Basic Hill Size) only goes up to a megaton. Equation
67, from which table 159 is derived, has no such limit.

>
>Can you say 10,000,000 dT Colonial Transport?  {:o      I knew you could.

However, Structural factor (overhead for decks, bracing, etc etc) is a
function of volume ^ 1.5, so the bigger a ship it exponentially needs more
structure for a given accelleration limit.

The cost-effective solution is probably a whole slew of 10 000t Colonial
Transports - at 1 passenger per 2 displacement tons, how often are you
going to be moving 5 million people, anyway ?


Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:47:26 PST
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: TravList:

>From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
>
>Interesting message.  Obviously a comentary on the void of space.
>
>----------
>> From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
>> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>> Subject: TravList:
>> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 3:39 PM
>> 
>>  
>

No, just the new automated internet censoring program at work. ;^]

PZ


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:01:44 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

Joe Pettit wrote:

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
>
> >
> > Only God is perfect.
>
> I could have done without this line.

Me too.

> > I can merely do my best.

You aren't by including the above.

> > So I shall.

Better would not be posting such to TML at all.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:07:52 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Philosophy? Ob. Trav

talisman wrote:

> > > The universe is imperfect, and we cannot be the part of it that we
> would
> > > wish.
>
>         What, if anything, does this have to do with Traveller?

  I had hopes for something interesting when I first saw the subject line
(I know, I should have learned by now, huh?).  But this post, before I got
to the unnnecessary referrence to a certain theorized entity, reminded me
of a high-tech philosophy I read of once.

I think it was in "Deathship of Antares."  A surprisingly readable little
sf book.
Basically, nasty bug warrior-caste-type aliens have a ship full of
prisoners.  The prisoners are kept in the hollow of a large ship.  Their
in microgravity, in orbit around some planet.  There's a honeycomb
structure along the walls of the hollowed out prisoner area.  Anyway . .
 New prisoner shows up.  And he brings his philosophy.  That philosophy is
bases on thermodynamics and electrical engineering, as far as I can tell.
The law of conservation of energy, etc.  Great stuff.  Wish I had it
around.  I'll see if I can find it, but don't get your hopes up.  Perhaps
some gearheads can derive it on their own.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:02:42 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

At 04:06 am 3/30/98 PST, you wrote:
>
>So I'd go for NLN LNL NLN LNL or LNL NLN LNL NLN. That makes it harder
>to swap groups by accident. And believe me, that *is* a consideration
>with ID numbers! You *want* certain combinations to be impossible, so
>as to catch entry errors.

	Or do what the credit card companies do--one of the digits (I don't
recall which) is a check digit. Your merchant's countertop machine
detects when the clerk miskeys a number. 
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:08:05 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroid

At 08:18 am 3/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>
>
>Don't feel too bad, David.  I watched the d*mned thing the first
time it
>was on, and felt very quesy thereafter.  Probably the second dumbest

	This wasn't the first time it was on? YOU MEAN YOU COULD HAVE WARNED
ME??!?!??!? I think that damn thing affekted my intele ... inde ...
ente ... smarts!
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 19:58:21 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read   on.

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>>At 07:11 PM 30/03/98 -0500, Semo wrote:

>>>Previous to the mid-18th century, there were roughly 1/3rd of a million
>>>people wandering around on the planet.  When this level was reached, it
>>>basically topped off and didn't change too much for 1,000s of years.

>>I presume you mean 1/3 of a billion. Even mille age europe had over ten
>>times you 1/3 of a million.

>Still not very on the mark, IIRC: mid-16th century China alone had over 1/3
>billion.

Actually 1/3 of a billion isn't too far off.  According to Fernand Braudel
the world population in the mid 18th was around 5 to 600,000,000.  More
that 333,000,000, but not that much more.  It had also been rising since
the 16th century.  To world pop was relatively stable at around 1/3
billion from around 500 CE to 1400 CE (it rose during this time, but only
*very* slowly. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 05:17 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Starship/vehicle automation

Moin Douglas,

> I would also take this opportunity to point out that in FFS2, you can
> choose what level of automation you want.

	What FFS2 calls low automation is not fully manual control.
	The XXIII (german U-Boat) had a crew of 12 and translates
	fine into 20 traveller displacement tons when submerged.
	The scout sized XXI had over 50 people. Thats what I would
	call fully manual control. The good thing on FFS2 automation
	levels is that its now posible to run a ship with a crew
	as in MT or in TNE based on design preferences. And that it
	could show that a major liner is running a 3000dt ship with
	the same number of crew as the poor trader uses for his
	200dt ship. This is similar to current sea vessels, as its
	posible to find 29.990 liners with a crew of 9 and coast
	rock'n'rollers of 999 tons with the same crew roaster.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:19:57 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: FFFB influence

dberry@hooked.net typed:
>At 12:28 PM 3/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>I still remember the words of Commander Cockroach on hearing that hundreds
>>of his Cochroach army was killed in battle, "Plenty more were they came
>from."
>That's actually based on a comment made by mao during the period when the
>PRC and the Soviets were engaged in artillery duels across their border.
>When a soviet diplomat threatened that they would kill millions, Mao calmly
>replied "good, less mouths to feed."  The soviets quietly backed down.

     If memory serves, the PRC Army was still doing human wave attacks against
fortified positions with automatic weapons.  Something for a small band of
PCs on lower tech planets way out in the boonies.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em
"It made him sound like Anne Rice's Lestat character, who seems sexy 
and exotic in print, but in real life would come across as an especially 
swishy and self-impressed drama queen." -- Buffalo Girls
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:26:28 EST
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: FarFuture Announcement

For Immediate Release (April 1, 1998)

March 31 marks the end of an era and the beginning of a new one.

Imperium has made a decision that it will release no more Traveller materials.
The T4 materials on hand at Imperium continue to be available to the adventure
game market through distributors and hobby stores.

Sweetpea has made a decision, with Imperium out of the picture, that it will
no longer actively pursue licensing of the Traveller property, devoting
instead its energies to its D&D license. 

Far Future has re-acquired substantially all rights to all Traveller
properties and is negotiating for a new publisher for the foundational role-
playing rules.

(This is NOT an April Fools Day message).

Marc Miller  FarFuture@AOL.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:02:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A question

In mail you write:

> The event has lead to a treaty between the Federation and the Empire,
> that banned weapons of planetary destruction (such as 'grey goo'
> nanobots and near-c rocks), but I'm not sure of one thing - can I call
> it "Treaty of Earth Asteroid Belt"? 
>
> That is, what will happen with the remains of the poor, pulverised
> Earth? I guess they will form an asteroid ring, but how fast? 

It takes an *astonishing* amount of energy to completely disrupt a
planet. So rather than an asteroid belt, you'll have some material
kicked to system escape velocity, and some kicked into solar orbits.
But most will not reach escape velocity for the planets remnants. Thus
the pieces will fall back in a quite short time (months at most). 

So you'll have run the planet thru a mixmaster, and killed everything
on it, but it'll still be there.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:34:22 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID

Perhaps it could be combined with a retina scan or finger print.

- ----------
> From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Imperial ID
> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 9:02 PM
> 
> At 04:06 am 3/30/98 PST, you wrote:
> >
> >So I'd go for NLN LNL NLN LNL or LNL NLN LNL NLN. That makes it
> harder
> >to swap groups by accident. And believe me, that *is* a
> consideration
> >with ID numbers! You *want* certain combinations to be impossible,
> so
> >as to catch entry errors.
> 
> 	Or do what the credit card companies do--one of the digits (I don't
> recall which) is a check digit. Your merchant's countertop machine
> detects when the clerk miskeys a number. 
> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>     *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***
> 
>  "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
>   enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
>   a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:36:14 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroid

I would have warned you all, but I didn't know it was going to be on again.
 I got rid of my TV after the last showing it traumatized me so much.  Now
I only have access to rentals.

- ----------
> From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Asteroid
> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 9:08 PM
> 
> At 08:18 am 3/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Don't feel too bad, David.  I watched the d*mned thing the first
> time it
> >was on, and felt very quesy thereafter.  Probably the second dumbest
> 
> 	This wasn't the first time it was on? YOU MEAN YOU COULD HAVE WARNED
> ME??!?!??!? I think that damn thing affekted my intele ... inde ...
> ente ... smarts!
> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>     *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***
> 
>  "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
>   enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
>   a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:33:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5

In mail you write:

>>>
>>> ---------> Anyone with a stucco house using a mesh framework is pretty
> well
>>> shielded too.
>>
>>Not unless that mesh is a lot finer than I remember it being.
>>
>
> -------> 'Round here it's roughly a half-inch gap. Given a low-powered radar
> unit and the mesh being a part of a wall, that's going to sap most of the
> utility from this device. Unless you want to walk up and just "shine" it in
> a window...

Remember, this is *millimeter* wavelength radar. So the holes are 12
times the wavelength. I'm not sure how bad the diffraction effects
would be. 

And the foil coatings on windows (to help cut down on heat transfer)
that are becoming common will screw up attempts to go thru windows.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:04:21 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

CardSharks wrote:

> Far Future has re-acquired substantially all rights to all Traveller
> properties and is negotiating for a new publisher for the foundational role-
> playing rules.
>
> (This is NOT an April Fools Day message).
>
> Marc Miller  FarFuture@AOL.com

I think this is AWESOME!

Here's to hoping that the new publisher produces high quality products worthy of
the Traveller name.

I know I'll give it another try.

Kenneth.

PS  I have high hopes for T4.1 also.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:56:03 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, readon.

> From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
> 
> I presume you mean 1/3 of a billion. Even mille age europe had over ten
> times you 1/3 of a million.

Whoops.  Yes, 1/3 of a billion.  Thanks for pointing that out.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:09:56 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: T6

CardSharks wrote:

> For Immediate Release (April 1, 1998)
>
> March 31 marks the end of an era and the beginning of a new one.

CT...MT...TNE...T4...G:T...and now....

            T6!

I hope.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:24:10 +1000 (EST)
From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> CardSharks wrote:
> 
> > Far Future has re-acquired substantially all rights to all Traveller
> > properties and is negotiating for a new publisher for the foundational role-
> > playing rules.
> >
> 
> I think this is AWESOME!

Hear, hear!
 
> Here's to hoping that the new publisher produces high quality products worthy of
> the Traveller name.

Hell, if someone can produce a 90% error free edition of T4 I'll buy it!  

Now the only problem is convicing the new publishers that they'll make a
product that'll sell well. Hire a GOOD layout guy and most of the problems
will be solved.

Dave 'Davechan' Moodie

tc+  tm++ tn++ t4-  tg   ru++ ge+  3i-  jt   au+  st+
ls   kk   hi+  as   va   dr+  so-  zh   vi   da+  sy-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:35:31 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: IG and SP Join the Titanic was: FarFuture Announcement

At 11:26 PM 3/31/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>For Immediate Release (April 1, 1998)
>
>March 31 marks the end of an era and the beginning of a new one.
>
>Imperium has made a decision that it will release no more Traveller materials.
>The T4 materials on hand at Imperium continue to be available to the adventure
>game market through distributors and hobby stores.
>
>Sweetpea has made a decision, with Imperium out of the picture, that it will
>no longer actively pursue licensing of the Traveller property, devoting
>instead its energies to its D&D license. 
>
>Far Future has re-acquired substantially all rights to all Traveller
>properties and is negotiating for a new publisher for the foundational role-
>playing rules.
>
>(This is NOT an April Fools Day message).
>
>Marc Miller  FarFuture@AOL.com

This is old news, the patient has been dead for many weeks, just waiting
around for the physicians to *officially* state the time of death. 

As for the causes of death, multiple gunshots to both feet, self inflected
gunshots to the head, multiple stab wounds to the dorsal vertebral
surfaces(back), billfold(wallet) explosion due to overloaded condition for
not paying authors, and suffocation due to cranial rectal inversion.<G>

Now on to Traveller Version 5 or is 6?
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:39:43 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroid

At 09:01 am 3/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>I kept hoping the scriptwriter would be different and just smash the
>>entire planet.  Would have made the movie end a lot faster.  :)
>
>The biggest scream of the night came when the bimboid astronemer said "it
>might hit water, which would be nearly as bad.."

	You meant "wouldn't be as bad" at which I too nearly spewed
(Starburst jellybeans). I was also especially impressed when they
managed to take the Airborne Laser out of the 747 (IIRC) platform
it's currently in, and sling it under fighters. And those damn tricky
asteroids kept maneuvering, too! And of course rock is highly
explosive when hit by a laser, and ... aarrgh!!! I remember way too
much of it! Must drink more bourbon! (but only good stuff, please ...)
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:44:32 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: My take on automation...

At 07:06 pm 3/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>the labour-saving devices in the home merely changed the standards of
>cleanliness so that the time spent on housework was the same. (I mean, who
>really needs daily vacuuming?)

	Not me ... maybe that's why I'm still single?

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #340
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 1 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 341



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A Couple of Questions...
Re: Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read	  on.
Re: Hi tech and Maximum ship sizes in FFS2
Re: Philosophy?
Cops/Bars
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Karma?
RE: canon vs. Canon
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
RE: Asteroid
Good Riddance
Traveller Philosophy (with apologies to MJD;)
Automation
Re:FarFuture Announcement
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #340
Re: A Couple of Questions...
Re: Asteroid
Re: TravList:
Re: Philosophy?
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: Automation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:51:43 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: A Couple of Questions...

At 07:50 am 3/31/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:38:10 +0000 "Robert Kondrk"
<dss2@pop.erols.com>
>writes:
>
>
>
>>2. Why does the QSDS & SSDS stop at 5000 dt? Could the FFSv2 system
>>be used to create ships that are larger, and if so, does FFS itself
>>have a upper tonnage limit?
>
>
>Welcome back friend, I know the feeling.  As to why QSDS stops at 5000
>dT, I don't know, but I have FFS2 and if has the 1,000,000 dT limit like
>High Guard.  Of course, I cant accept that, so I extrapolate for things
>over that limit.

	I don't recall putting any such limits into FF&S2. Yes, the table
doesn't go on to infinity, but that's a limitation imposed by
paper--which is why I also put in the equations used to create the
table. Eventually you run into limitations imposed by surface area,
but that's realistic.

	As for QSDS and SSDS stopping at 5,000Td, that's the direction the
original authors were given by IG. Neither was intended to be a
full-up design system, merely a "slap a quick role-players vessel"
together system.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:14:33 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Re:Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read	  on.

> Still not very on the mark, IIRC: mid-16th century China alone had over 1/3
> billion.

Can you site a source for this?  This was a figure I had read in reference
to the population explosion from lecture notes regarding the needed
technologies for the 21st century.  Not doubting, just genuinely interested
as the guy seemed to be pretty well researched in other areas.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:50:14 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Hi tech and Maximum ship sizes in FFS2

> From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>
> If you have PE, have a look at and think about the other 'social' factors
- -
> Culture, Self-Determination, Pluralism, Progression, Planning, Advancement,
> Growth, Militancy, Unity and Tolerance.

I've been really meaning to check it out.  My game store had it for a
little while, and then when I went to buy it, they didn't anymore...  I
better jump on it though, and try to order, in light of what Mr. Miller has
posted to the list.

> Ummm, so you can export the goods and sell them to other people ? One of
> the 'core' assumptions is that the 3I is a capitalist free-market.

Well, I knew _that_ :^)

I guess I just misunderstood what you meant.

> If my completely automated factory can churn out goods at 80% of the cost
> of your made-by-humans operation, the odds are that I am going to eat you
> alive in the price-sensitive markets.

True enough.

> I agree. The key question is do you need the pilot and/or astrogator as
> well as the computer ?

My answer is no, you don't need a pilot and astrogator in addition to the
computer from a technological point of view.  From a role-playing point of
view, yes, you do need it so that the PCs can have the skills and use them.
 It seems the trouble is, trying to figure out the correct balance between
the two...  Something that I haven't worked out fully in my own head yet,
so I'm not sure I want to go into too much detail and end up contradiciting
myself tomorrow.

> >It is able to be done with guts, a steady hand and working sensors... But,
> >the Imperium wouldn't always trust guts, a steady hand, and working sensors
> > :^)
> 
> Where did I say 'legally' ? *grin*

Funny you should mention this.  One of my PCs wanted to 'buzz the tower'
with the party's scout ship tonight...  :^)

Could have been messy.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:35:21 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> 
> > Only God is perfect.
> 
> I could have done without this line.

Some people might see differently.  Which seemed to be precisely the point
of the post.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:28:13 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Cops/Bars

>At 12:57 PM 3/31/98 EST, you wrote:
>>I got one that's all most as funny. Some knucklehead decides to rob an Irish
>>bar in Queens (I think, or maybe it was Brooklyn?). when he draws, EVERYBODY,
>>including the bartender draws too. It was the local watering hole for the
>>Precinct; oops.
>>
>>
>
>Didn't I see this one in Hill Street blues many years ago?

Don't remember it if it was. But an almost identical scene is in one of the
Robocop films. "What's it like bein' a rocket scientist?" is the ending
line...

Loren

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:42:36 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

> From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
> 
> For Immediate Release (April 1, 1998)
> 
> March 31 marks the end of an era and the beginning of a new one.
> 
> Imperium has made a decision that it will release no more Traveller materials.
> The T4 materials on hand at Imperium continue to be available to the adventure
> game market through distributors and hobby stores.

Hmmm...

My feelings are strangely mixed on this.  I had a comment planned somewhere
in my head, but I've lost the moment.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:05:29 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Karma?

>Subject: FarFuture Announcement
...
>Imperium has made a decision that it will release no more Traveller materials.

  You realize that the timing is sort of neat (besides being 04/01)?

  Australia is sleeping...

  Good luck to FFE.
  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:09:25 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: RE: canon vs. Canon

On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, John Toth wrote:

> I Don't Think Tom Cruise was in "Hunt for Red October".

You're right - that was Alec Baldwin
 
> A better pick might be Star Trek. The Show where the Klingons Stuck Worf's 
> wife (ex-, girl ? ) in the Torpedo Case and shot her to the Link-up site.

There was a movie "Starflight One", in which also a person had to be
transported thorugh space - from an ill-fated post-modern plane to a space
shuttle - in a coffin. I rember, after the coffin got a hole, and the
aides got the man out alive nevertheless, they asked: What did you do?
He answered: I put my finger on the hole.

Sounds like a kind of Bowman's space walk without helmet ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:28:24 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> Since people are discussing bank robbers, I thought I'd see if I could get
> Bruce to destroy yet another keyboard.

Other ones, heard on the radio short ago:

Some thiefs tried to rob a bank with a truck - they parked it backside to
the bank, tied the bankomat to it and drove off ... later they realized,
it was the statement printer instead ...

Another one, a soldier of the german army, robbed a bank, in uniform, but 
with a mask. As this army is conscientious about their uniforms, you could
read his name later on the video tape.

And then there were two thiefs who photgraphed themselves at work, but
threw away the polaroids 'cause they only showed black ...

That nearly got me up that morning, hadn't been the clocks set
to summertime a day ago ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:42:16 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: RE: Asteroid

I also have seen Asteroid, it had been shown here some months ago.
Thought I could get some inspirations for the 'Critical Vector' adventure
for Traveller ... but on the other hand ...

The first part was nice, quite good action and sfx, the second one
reminded me of 'Earthquake' and 'Poseidon Inferno' and and and ...
In other words: the same people-struck-by-catastrophe-try-to-find-
together-and-their-way-out-movie seen so often before.

I think 'Meteor' was a far better Asteroids-hit-Earth spectacle, even as
its twenty years older. (What happens if such a stone hits water/snow/
ground/a city?)

On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Smart, David wrote:

[snipped]

> Still, since I live just outside of Dallas, it was fun to see it
> scragged.
> Then I could visit all the gaming stores in the area and take advantage
> of all the post-apocalyptic sales and buy up all the GURPS books!
> BWAHAHAHAHAH!!!

I know what you mean. On of our TV Networks showed a movie nearly also as
bad, but as it was set in my home city, and our landmark was totally
destructed in a scene, I saw it for that one. (The SFX Man came from
Emmerich's 'Independence Day', what else do I have to say?)

Maybe that's the point, why ID4 itself did not appeal that much to me.
Everything took place in the US. But I do not live in the US. Sorry.

L. A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:44:29 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Good Riddance

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:54:47 -0500, you wrote:

>CardSharks wrote:
>
>> Far Future has re-acquired substantially all rights to all Traveller
>> properties and is negotiating for a new publisher for the foundational role-
>> playing rules.
>>
>> (This is NOT an April Fool"s Day message).
>>
>> Marc Miller  FarFuture@AOL.com

Consider me dancing on a certain company's grave. And not before time, too!

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
YES! Dark Star is now available from Hyperbooks.com!
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 04:03:43 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Traveller Philosophy (with apologies to MJD;)

The Traveller universe is imperfect, and we can run any part of it that we
would wish.

I can fix the Traveller universe. 
I can make it perfect. 
I can make it fit together like it should.

I can change a small part of it, any part I would choose to change.

I can rule what I think is right NOW. 
In my next campaign, that may be something different. 
In my next campaign, then, I will rule differently.

Complaining, backbiting and hairsplitting achieve nothing. 
Striving mightily often also achieves nothing.

The Zhodani say: If we go Coreward, we die. If we Rimward, we die. It is
better to go Coreward.

So it is. 

I will play what I can in this imperfect Traveller universe. 
I will not criticise others, though I may disagree with them, for playing
what they think is fun. 
I ask only that they do the same for me.

My universe may not be canonical.
I cannot know. 
Am I true to canon, or am I heretical?

There is no answer, for all answers are opinions. 
There is no One True Way in Traveller.

Only Miller is perfect. 
I can merely do my best.

So I shall.

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
  "What's that blue thing doing here?" -- They Might Be Giants

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:26:58 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Automation

Funny how topic's I'm currrently thinking on seem to come up on the TML.

I've recently been trying to work out just what society is going to be
like IMTU and I've been doing a lot of thinking about cybertech, nanotech,
biotech and robotics/automation. I can accept cultural limitations on cyber,
nano and biotech, but not automation. I can't see a future were most direct
manufacturing is not done by robots (look at the automated car plants and
warehouses we already have). It just makes **Too** much economic sense to
do otherwise. So just how does a society cope with the massive job losses
this will entail. Well looking at current trends, I can see three basic
responses:

1) Massive increase in the service sector. This is happening right now, I'm
   not sure on the exact figures, but the number of jobs in this sector
   have increased several fold in the last 20 years (I think it might even
   be an order of magnitude).

2) Reduction of working hours. A simply solution, if the number of jobs is
   halved, society responds by halving working hours effectively spliting
   each existing jobs into two jobs. This solution will have meet strong
   oposition from employers.

3) A welfare state. Another simple solution, though I'd call it a Citizen
   Wage state (you are theoretically paid a wage just for being a citizen
   and therefore "contributing" to the state).

The most likely response to increased automation would be (IMO) a lot of
option 1, a fair amount of option 2, and a bit of option 3 (even though this
is a more likely response than option 2, a permanent underclass of proles
just doesn't fit IMTU). So what do I think the results of this would be? IMO
it will create a much more stratified and heirachical society (I'd liken it
to late Victorian England). Those will "real" jobs and those who serve them.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge
****************************************************************************
"Avec vous votra limpet mine?"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:35:58 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re:FarFuture Announcement

>From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
>Imperium has made a decision that it will release no more Traveller
>materials. The T4 materials on hand at Imperium continue to be

	Reminds me of something... OK, no the Universe is not expanding 
anymore, so, there is no reason to make an effort to keep 
compatibility with IG materials... I go back to MT, and put them all 
in the "materials pool".

>Far Future has re-acquired substantially all rights to all Traveller
>properties and is negotiating for a new publisher for the 
>foundational role- playing rules.

	Will it be the famous T4.1, or T5? Maybe TRAVELLER: PENTIUM? Or is 
this just a way of saying that the alternate universe of Gurps: 
Traveller will become the one and only setting? I doubt this, because 
the "foundational role-playing rules" (character generation, 
tasks, ship construction) won't fit in Gurps.
	Anyway, it's sad to see that Traveller receives a new blow. I hope 
that, if there is a new edition, only writers who know something 
about Traveller are allowed to develop materials for it.

	Carlos Alos-Ferrer, a.k.a the Geonee-maker

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:41:35 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #340

>Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:01:44 -0500
>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Philosophy?

>Joe Pettit wrote:

>>MJ Dougherty wrote:

>>>Only God is perfect.

>>I could have done without this line.

>Me too.

>>>I can merely do my best.

The concept of only God being capable of perfection is a perfectly valid
philosphical concept. The usage is clear from the next line. This is not
a religious concept per se, mearly a statement that humanity prevents
perfection. God here is merely used as an unobtainable goal.

>You aren't by including the above.

>>>So I shall.

>Better would not be posting such to TML at all.

I find the post puzzling and am unable to quite understand it's relevance to
Traveller. Perhaps its a comment on the heated debates about Canon?

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge
****************************************************************************
"Avec vous votra limpet mine?"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:34:12 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: A Couple of Questions...

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>3. Some previous HG-> T4 conversion has been done in the past and posted
>on the list. I can't remember when, searching through the archives at
>ftp.mpgn.com would turn it up. IIRC they would have been posted sometime
>last summer or fall.

There were three posts, all by Rob Flammang. I stupidly deleted them by
accident. If Rob's still on the list I'd appreciate it if he could repost
them either to the list or to me personally..

Thanks,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:47:23 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Asteroid

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:

>At 08:18 am 3/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>Don't feel too bad, David.  I watched the d*mned thing the first
>time it
>>was on, and felt very quesy thereafter.  Probably the second dumbest
>
>	This wasn't the first time it was on? YOU MEAN YOU COULD HAVE WARNED
>ME??!?!??!? I think that damn thing affekted my intele ... inde ...
>ente ... smarts!

Ermmm. It was on in the UK around Christmas. I didn't warn you in case you
viewed it as a spoiler and I didn't want you to ruin B5 series 5 for me
(less than a month to go!).

Actually, I didn't warn you because I didn't know it was on.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:44:21 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: TravList:

 "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
>>Interesting message.  Obviously a comentary on the void of space.
>>> From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
>>> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>>> Subject: TravList:
>>> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 3:39 PM
>>>
>>>
>No, just the new automated internet censoring program at work. ;^]

Shall we speculate what the topic was? Near-C rocks? Virus? Fighters?
Pirates? Feudal Technocracies? Sayat perversions? The Templar conspiracy?
CT is better than MT is better than TNE is better than T4 is better than
CT.......? Gurps Traveller, friend or foe?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:39:09 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

>Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>

"Many machines on Ix. New machines. Better than those on Richese."

Any comment on the technology debate?

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:32:19 +0000
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

It seems T4 didn't sell as well as we'd like.  Why?

- - Its yet another version of the rules?
- - The artwork wasn't canon?
- - Problems with the rules?
- - Poor layout?
- - Financial mismanagement?
- - Lack of proof-reading?

_Or_  was  it  because  it  was  lacking  a  story?  CT  had  the
storylines of the 5FW  and  the  secret  of  the  Ancients  (told
through TAS news items and related products),  MT  had  a  strong
storyline of the Rebellion  (told through  sometimes  conflicting
TAS news items  and  related  products),  even  TNE  had  a  weak
storyline of the post-3I recovery.

But I don't remember seeing much of a storyline in  T4.  Yes,  it
fit in to the overall history of the Traveller universe,  and  it
had its own recent history, but it didn't progress this ... there
was no 'local' storyline.  It was just a snapshot in time.

The potential was there.  We should have heard tales of political
intrigue from the Imperial court as the old social structures  of
Sylea are stretched to accommodate the expanding empire.  Stories
of gold rush mentality as  fledgeling  megacorporations  race  to
build and exploit new markets.  The inevitable frictions  as  new
pocket empires  are  absorbed  into  the  greater  Imperium  with
disparate world views  and  moralities.  The  scouts  making  new
discoveries  beyond  the  growing  borders.   Acts   of   gunboat
diplomacy from the Navy.  And the usual scandals and corruption.

And it could have been told through _regular_ 'news'  updates  in
the Journal, linked to adventures, supplementary sourcebooks, and
novels.  The T4 setting would then come to life ... it  would  be
vibrant and interesting ... and popular at the game  store  till.
We'd want to know what happens next.



Regards PLST
"Its like deja vu all over again"
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 13:33 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Automation

Moin Andrew Moffatt-Vallance,

> 1) Massive increase in the service sector. This is happening right now, I'm
>    not sure on the exact figures, but the number of jobs in this sector
>    have increased several fold in the last 20 years (I think it might even
>    be an order of magnitude).

	This can even be found in my old school books. I could post a table
	for germany regarding migration from so called 1th sector (agriculture)
	to the 2nd sector (production) to the 3rd sector (services) from
	1600-1990 (TL:3-8) showing that trend.

> 2) Reduction of working hours. A simply solution, if the number of jobs is
>    halved, society responds by halving working hours effectively spliting
>    each existing jobs into two jobs. This solution will have meet strong
>    oposition from employers.

	This is posible with a "left wing" government, but last try of
	germans union caused a politic shift from left to right (never
	mind the ballots, if election would change anything there would
	be a law against them ;-) made by the FDP (german liberal party)
	and this is of topic now. But it will become one of the solutions.
	e.g. its even possible the Mac jobs slicky Bill introduced for
	US could become better payed over the time, and that it would
	be sometimes ok to work half a day, just because its difficult
	for Mac to get a reliable waiter for less.

	From looking at statistics I have, I would say that average
	working hours per day to make a living, is increasing from 1
	hour at TL1 to its maximum of 12 hours at TL:5 down to the 8
	hours at TL:8 we now have, to perhaps 3 hours at TL:15.

> 3) A welfare state. Another simple solution, though I'd call it a Citizen
>    Wage state (you are theoretically paid a wage just for being a citizen
>    and therefore "contributing" to the state).

	The ShadowRun Pueblo Modell, well I dont think that this would
	work. But I would like to add some Traveller(tm) solutions and
	a bit of what I think about economy.

	4) Poverty for the masses ! Claim of many economist is the 3/4
	   society with 3/4 without work and income. Extremly nice for
	   capitalist imperialism, and of course sponsored by them.
	   This could be common for TL:7-12 balkanised planets.

	5) Postulating a 4th sector, e.g. education. If we claim that a
	   TL:15 country will have half of its population under education,
	   to produce anything, we would need a large education network,
	   sucking up most of the people who work, and only a few are
	   doing a service, producing something or even growing weed for
	   fun. This would fit good to the civil service but also to other
	   governments.

	6) Feudal technocraty. Perhaps one of the best things about a
	   feudal government to say is, that land lords are not thinking
	   in paying wages (my grandfarther did'nt pay neither his serfs
	   not his bondsmen) but has to care for their living, in good
	   and in bad times. Portugal where the Don is still common in
	   the rural is showing the same tradition, that the Mafia shows
	   (the Italian not those rotten Ami's), that the Don is normaly
	   wearing old clothes looking as if he's one of the poor. If you
	   have ever seen Don Benidetto (CEO of Olivetti, shareholder
	   of AT&T and a lot of other companies) outside of a major
	   computer exhibition, you know what I mean. If you ever have
	   been in rural Portugal, where a Don trying to look poorer than
	   the old man and women left to him, you know the dark side of
	   the model.

	7) Civil Service Government: You have to teach children once a
	   week, or clean the garden to make a living, could be the good
	   side of this government. But unnecssary work, problems with
	   the 5 years plan and the SNAFU princip, expressing in problems
	   like anybody has work and money but the supermarket does'nt
	   have toilet paper for 4 weeks, are the bad side.

	8) Cultural differences. Lancian or Suerrat have an other
	   philosophie work than Solomani, and Vilani are perhaps slow
	   in technological advance for a good reason.

	9) It could be possible, that the TL cause people to work less
	   theory, is totaly wrong. People have to work even more
	   than now to sustain high tech, and they addionaly need
	   enormous im and exports (with terms of trade on their side
	   of course) because only extrem large societies can build
	   techlevels higher than 10-12. This is my (uncanon) synergy
	   formular of course : population >= 10^techlevel/2^maintmod.

	ok 9 points and closed ;-)

> The most likely response to increased automation would be (IMO) a lot of
> option 1, a fair amount of option 2, and a bit of option 3 (even though this
> is a more likely response than option 2, a permanent underclass of proles
> just doesn't fit IMTU).

	IMTU I have the above traveller governments and a lot of handwaving
	to introduce just a nother crazy government. My planet side
	economy is different to interstellar economie. The starport
	in MT was extrality zone, means outside of the planets border
	in imperial space, even if it was a downport. So it was possible
	to allow free trade at starports, but to restrict imports and
	exports.

	TNE is of course a different things, the trading slaves for
	spareparts for ships and for gimmicks for the TEDs. Lots would
	be happy to have problems the 3I had.

> So what do I think the results of this would be? IMO
> it will create a much more stratified and heirachical society (I'd liken it
> to late Victorian England). Those will "real" jobs and those who serve them.

	Lets guest. "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer"
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #341
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 1 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 342



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Philosophy?
Re: Traveller Philosophy (with apologies to MJD;)
Re: Good Riddance
re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)
Re: canon vs. Canon
Re: A Couple of Questions...
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
Re: Cops/Bars
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: Asteroid
Re: FFFB influence
Re: TravList:
Re:FarFuture Announcement
Re: TravList:
Re: A question 
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Books n stuff
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
3D star maps
Re:FarFuture Announcement
New Traveller
RE: Philosophy?
Re:FarFuture Announcement
Re: Automation
Re: FarFuture Announcement

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 07:34:53 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

SD Mooney wrote:

> >Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>
> "Many machines on Ix. New machines. Better than those on Richese."
>
> Any comment on the technology debate?

Actually, I sparked off the latest debate on message torps.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 07:42:26 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Philosophy (with apologies to MJD;)

Glenn Grant wrote:

> The Traveller universe is imperfect, and we can run any part of it that we
> would wish.
>

[Much Clippage]

>
>
> Only Miller is perfect.

I could have done without this line.

> I can merely do my best.
>
> So I shall.
>
>  + GMG +

:-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 06:57:33 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Good Riddance

At 08:44 AM 4/1/98 +0000, Phillip McGregor wrote:
>On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:54:47 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>CardSharks wrote:
>>
>>> Far Future has re-acquired substantially all rights to all Traveller
>>> properties and is negotiating for a new publisher for the foundational
role-
>>> playing rules.
>>>
>>> (This is NOT an April Fool"s Day message).
>>>
>>> Marc Miller  FarFuture@AOL.com
>
>Consider me dancing on a certain company's grave. And not before time, too!

Phil,

Due to proper decorum, there will be only one week of grave dancing, and
reveling at the demise of IG.  NOT!<G>

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:14:23 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: re: The Traveller geek (or, the IMTU code)

On 30 Mar 98, David P. Summers disseminated foul capitalist 
propaganda by writing:

> > Oh, yeah, another thing for the TravGeek Code: jump drives: 
[...]
> Well, I wouldn't include the highly questionable implication that
> injection mass is "cononical".  Or that this deserves the most "pro
> jump drive" code.  If you want to cover both the question of whether
> people use Traveller type jump drive (vs stutterwarp, etc.) and also
> what explination they use for jump drives, them make two different
> codes. 

Well, the more the better! Maybe we'll get to have a bigger code than 
the original Geek Code. ;>

(And mine was only an example. I'm not a Trav speciallist. ;>)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    You need leather balls to play rugby. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:12:57 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:09:25 +0200 (MET DST) Lars Adler
<adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE> writes:

>Sounds like a kind of Bowman's space walk without helmet ...


Not really.  A person would have enough time to survive in a vacuum and
at least pull a control to close the lock and pressurize.  You better
keep your mouth open and exhale though.  I think you might cause lung
damage.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:09:04 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: A Couple of Questions...

On Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:51:43 -0700 "David J. Golden"
<goldendj@pcisys.net> writes:

>
>	I don't recall putting any such limits into FF&S2. Yes, the table
>doesn't go on to infinity, but that's a limitation imposed by
>paper--which is why I also put in the equations used to create the
>table. Eventually you run into limitations imposed by surface area,
>but that's realistic.
>

I perambulate corrected!!


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:49:36 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:28:24 +0200 (MET DST) Lars Adler
<adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE> writes:
>On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>
>> Since people are discussing bank robbers, I thought I'd see if I 
>could get
>> Bruce to destroy yet another keyboard.
>
Hold on to your keyboards, or cover them!

Here locally, a few weeks ago, a guy held up a convenience store.  He
then tried to buy a pack of cigarettes there about a week later. 
Needless to say, the clerk recognized him!!!


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:11:00 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Cops/Bars

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:28:13 EST GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com> writes:
>>At 12:57 PM 3/31/98 EST, you wrote:
>>>I got one that's all most as funny. Some knucklehead decides to rob an Irish
>>>bar in Queens (I think, or maybe it was Brooklyn?). when he draws, EVERYBODY,
>>>including the bartender draws too. It was the local watering hole for the
>>>Precinct; oops.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Didn't I see this one in Hill Street blues many years ago?


Its a scene from a Chuck Norris film, the name escapes me.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:57:34 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:35:58 +0000 "Carlos Alos-Ferrer"
<Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> writes:

>	Anyway, it's sad to see that Traveller receives a new blow. I 
>hope 
>that, if there is a new edition, only writers who know something 
>about Traveller are allowed to develop materials for it.
>
>	Carlos Alos-Ferrer, a.k.a the Geonee-maker
>


True, it is sad, but like a Timex (c), it takes a licking and keeps on
ticking.  I have _never_ seen a game survive so much turmoil before.  We
should take some pride in being part of such a thing, even if it is just
a game.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:53:33 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Asteroid

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:42:16 +0200 (MET DST) Lars Adler
<adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE> writes:

>I think 'Meteor' was a far better Asteroids-hit-Earth spectacle, even 
>as
>its twenty years older. (What happens if such a stone hits water/snow/
>ground/a city?)
>

If it hits water, you will get a massive tsumani, capable of reaching
many miles inland.  If such a rock impacted in the Pacific, all the
islands would be inundated, and the coastal areas all around the Pacific
Rim would become mud flats many miles wide.  It would be better to have
the thing strike ground (if you can call a gigaton range blast good!).


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:06:07 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: FFFB influence

On Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:19:57 -0500 Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
writes:

>
>     If memory serves, the PRC Army was still doing human wave attacks against
>fortified positions with automatic weapons.  Something for a small band of
>PCs on lower tech planets way out in the boonies.
>

Just a quick tale about human wave tactics, and psycology.  There is a
story from Korea about such an event, when the PRC used these tactics
against a series of UN lines.  The Americans were the first line, and
when they ran out of ammo, they fell back.  The second line was British,
and when they ran out of ammo, they fell back.  The third line was a
Turkish unit.  Now, when they ran out of ammo, they didn't fall back. 
They still used swords then, so they drew blades and started lopping off
heads.  The PRC broke and ran.  Why?  To their mindset/religion losing
your head keeps you from being reincarnated/reborn/going to heaven/etc. 
Something for the GM's to think about when presenting a low tech threat. 
Everyone has some breaking point.  You should give your PC's some chance
to find this.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+  

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:47:27 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: TravList:

> 
> Shall we speculate what the topic was? Near-C rocks? Virus? Fighters?
> Pirates? Feudal Technocracies? Sayat perversions? The Templar conspiracy?
> CT is better than MT is better than TNE is better than T4 is better than
> CT.......? Gurps Traveller, friend or foe?
> 
> Dom

	Yes, that.  Most definatly that.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:49:29 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re:FarFuture Announcement

	And so, we must again bid the gospel of Marc good by.  Maybe we could take
up a donation and try to keep the company afloat.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:56:02 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: TravList:

>Shall we speculate what the topic was? Near-C rocks? Virus? Fighters?
>Pirates? Feudal Technocracies? Sayat perversions? The Templar conspiracy?
>CT is better than MT is better than TNE is better than T4 is better than
>CT.......? Gurps Traveller, friend or foe?
>
>Dom
>

Don't forget the all-mighty jump drive debate!  :)

Shawn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:04:27 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: A question 

On 31 Mar 98, james a clem disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by 
writing:

<snip>
> >That is, what will happen with the remains of the poor, pulverised
> >Earth? I guess they will form an asteroid ring, but how fast? 
> 
> I can't say how long precisely, but it'll take a lot longer than
> your player's characters will live.

Heh. With all the antiaging drugs and gene therapies out there, I 
wouldn't be so sure. Besides, it happened long before the start of 
campaign. Now the war devolved into something akin to a Cold War, and 
there's an external threat my player's don't know about yet. <eGMg>

(No, the Sayat are not coming. ;))

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  IMTU ?tc t4+ to(CORPS)++ ru-- ge++ !3I jt au- jd- !st ls !kk hi++ as+ !so !vi !sy say++
    This tagline is SHAREWARE!  To register, send me $10.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 10:17:14 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

> (This is NOT an April Fools Day message).
 
Well, congrats, Marc. I hope you have more luck with Traveller
the next time around. Not buying a house in Texas, are you?

So, will this increase or decrease the "collectible value" of T4 books?
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:18:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Books n stuff

As we're going through the perennial loop of what books/films etc inspire
our Traveller games...

Azimov (Particularly the original 3 Foundation Books)
Andre Norton (Particularly the Solar Queen stuff)
EC Tubb (Dumarest)
Clarke (Rendez-vous with Rama, 2010)
Mary Gentle (Golden Witchbreed and Ancient Light - excellent novels of
first contact)
Iain Banks (just the general epic feel)
CJ Cherryh (the Alliance/Union books particularly)
David Brinn (generally)
Heinlein (Starship Troopers)
MK Wren (Phoenix Trilogy)


Films:

Alien/Aliens/Alien3 (not Resurrection though)
Bladerunner
Dune
2010 (2001 still bores me, sorry)
Strange Days
Outland
Wild Palms
Fifth Element
B5 series
Star Wars etc.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:43:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Lars Adler wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> > Since people are discussing bank robbers, I thought I'd see if I could get
> > Bruce to destroy yet another keyboard.
> 
> Other ones, heard on the radio short ago:
> 
> Some thiefs tried to rob a bank with a truck - they parked it backside to
> the bank, tied the bankomat to it and drove off ... later they realized,
> it was the statement printer instead ...

Actually, it was the practice of bank-robbing by towtruck that has caused
many banks to get rid of their standalone banking machines in favor of
ones built into buildings. There was one bank, in Virginia? Delaware? one
of the eastern seaboard states that lost five or six of them that way in
a day or two.

> 
> Another one, a soldier of the german army, robbed a bank, in uniform, but 
> with a mask. As this army is conscientious about their uniforms, you could
> read his name later on the video tape.

I once knew someone who served time for armed robbery (actually, I knew his
brother, and later met the guy, and yes he _was_ that dumb!) for robbing
the burger joint he worked at. You see, he put a mask on, but he did the
talking, and it was during his shift, so everyone recognized him right
away. Worse...it was during his shift, and he KNEW they always did a money
drop right before that shift, so he got maybe $100-$130 or so.

But he was also a large, dangerous psychopath as well. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

> 
> And then there were two thiefs who photgraphed themselves at work, but
> threw away the polaroids 'cause they only showed black ...
> 
> That nearly got me up that morning, hadn't been the clocks set
> to summertime a day ago ...
> 
> L.A.
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:44:37 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: 3D star maps

I found a new 3d star map that uses the Gliese Star Catalog data.

Its at

http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/road/xpa18/

I haven't tried it out yet, but it looks good from the screen shots.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:03:26 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re:FarFuture Announcement

>        Anyway, it's sad to see that Traveller receives a new blow. I hope
>that, if there is a new edition, only writers who know something
>about Traveller are allowed to develop materials for it.
>
>        Carlos Alos-Ferrer, a.k.a the Geonee-maker

Actually I think that it is a good thing IG stops trying to make a few by
rushing out badly proofread/layouted, canon-checked books. Trav has
actually gained something from this as GT will probably sell more because
of this and MM might try to do his T4.1/T5 thing without all the errors
most, if not all, products from IG had. Good riddance.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:56:42 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: New Traveller

Traveller: Pentium?  Ghu, I hope not!  I can just imagine; the first
printing will have an error requiring the players to roll 2d5.998.


Carlos Alos-Ferrer <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> said:
> Will it be the famous T4.1, or T5? Maybe TRAVELLER: PENTIUM?
- -----------------------------

Steven Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:58:41 -0600 
From: "Reed DE (David)  at MSXSSC" <DR200282@MSXSSC.shell.com>
Subject: RE: Philosophy?

Steve Daniels wrote:
> Joe Pettit wrote:
> > MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > > Only God is perfect.
> > I could have done without this line.
> Me too.

Whine, whine, whine.  If you don't like it, get over it, and ignore it.  You
wouldn't have stirred me out of lurkerdom, and you certainly wouldn't be
seeing these wasted bytes from me...

> > > I can merely do my best.
> 
> You aren't by including the above.

Your personal judgements don't belong, either, flamebait.  I don't think
you're doing your part at demonstrating "personal best" by denigrating
others.

[snip]
> Better would not be posting such to TML at all.

And who praytell died and made you list moderator?!

Last time I checked this is an open forum, not a moderated, invitation-only
list like HIWG or my own T4 list.

Apologies to my fellow lurkers...

- ---
David Reed <dreed@shellus.com> (713.245.2656)
Shell Services International, ITS/CS

'out the window' (haiku)

Yesterday it worked;
today it is not working.
Windows[tm] is like that.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:04:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re:FarFuture Announcement

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
> 	Will it be the famous T4.1, or T5? Maybe TRAVELLER: PENTIUM? Or is 
> this just a way of saying that the alternate universe of Gurps: 
> Traveller will become the one and only setting? I doubt this, because 
> the "foundational role-playing rules" (character generation, 
> tasks, ship construction) won't fit in Gurps.

You can use the Traveller character generation system and substitute
GURPS skills and stats or you can make up random character generation
charts for GURPS quite easily.  My hope is that something about this
will be including in GURPS Traveller... if not in the first book then
in a later book (GURPS Traveller Characters?).

Tasks are handled differently, obviously, but it's a different system.

GURPS has Vehicles, a quite comprehensive vehicle design system
comparable to FF&S.  All that needs to be done is to define some of
the staples of Traveller Tech in GURPS terms and you're ready to go.

I'm not saying that GURPS Traveller will replace anything but it is
capable of handling whatever you want it to handle.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:04:48 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Automation

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> Funny how topic's I'm currrently thinking on seem to come up on the TML.
> 
> 2) Reduction of working hours. A simply solution, if the number of jobs is
>    halved, society responds by halving working hours effectively spliting
>    each existing jobs into two jobs. This solution will have meet strong
>    oposition from employers.

Actually, not a hell of a lot. Two part-timers are cheaper than one
full-timer: no benefits. Some of the largest grown areas in the US economy
has been in _part-time_ jobs. Also, there is a corresponding increase in
the use of temps. The single largest employer in the US is Manpower, a
temporary agency. Some companies are hiring what have become known as
'permatemps', long term temp workers. 

Microsoft is one of these. When the courts ruled that Microsoft (among
other large employers) couldn't simply fire vast numbers of their
employees and immediately rehire them as 'independent contractors' to get
around paying taxes and benefits, they hired them from temp agencies. Some
of their 'temp' workers have been working for them longer than five years. 

Micro$oft did that to my town. they came in and said they wanted to put in
a support center here...there were going to be hundreds of jobs,
full-time high-paying ones, _but_ they wanted some concessions form the
city first, like tax rebates, and a guarantee that the city would pay
_them_ for unused space in the building they were leasing until they
needed it (the building itself was another $@#!$@ing boondoggle enTIREly)
and other consessions.

But HEY this was MICROSOFT everybody, a big company bringing in jobs to
the city!!!

Well, they had an employment open house, expecting 800-900 people to come.
there were more than 8000 that showed up from as far away as Texas. In the
end there were something like 35 'real' jobs created, most of those were
filled by people relocating from Seattle, and the bulk of the rest were
contracted out from temp agencies. Within a year, Microsoft was gone,
anyway, along with several hundred thousand dollars from the city.

So I'm familiar with the Zhunastu Rules of Contact, yes! :-<

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:12:58 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

>It seems T4 didn't sell as well as we'd like.  Why?


For what it's worth as an informal survey, these are my reasons for never
buying *any* of IGs products...


>- Poor layout?
>- Lack of proof-reading?


Oh, and high, high prices. [Yes, I know publishing is pricy (I do layout
for a weekly) and the RPG market is in a slump, but come on -- $20+ US for
a slim softcover?!?]

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #342
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 1 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 343



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FFFB influence
Philosophy- what was I talking about?
Subject: Traveller Philosophy (with apologies to MJD;)
Re: Automation
Re: New Traveller
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: 3D star maps
Geonee Online Sourcebook
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: Asteroid
Re:FarFuture Announcement
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: Philosophy?
Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff
Re: FarFuture Announcement
re: FFFB influence
The future of Traveller?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:18:06 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: FFFB influence

Jim A. Clem wrote:

>
>Just a quick tale about human wave tactics, and psycology.  There is a
>story from Korea about such an event, when the PRC used these tactics
>against a series of UN lines.  The Americans were the first line, and
>when they ran out of ammo, they fell back.  The second line was British,
>and when they ran out of ammo, they fell back.  The third line was a
>Turkish unit.  Now, when they ran out of ammo, they didn't fall back.
>They still used swords then, so they drew blades and started lopping off
>heads.  The PRC broke and ran.  Why?  To their mindset/religion losing
>your head keeps you from being reincarnated/reborn/going to heaven/etc.

Okay.  I'm no expert on Chinese folklore or religion per se, but I play one
on the TML^H^H^H^H but I've spent a good portion of the last 20-odd years
living there and reading about and studying the damn place -- and I've
never heard of this belief.  This story, rather, sounds suspiciously like
the idiot analyses by funny-if-they-weren't-guiding-the-military
"intelligence community" that were so popular back then.  Not now, of
course

<true story> You've heard the one that Chinese troops in Korea weren't
expected to march so fast?  Why?  Why, because of the awful athletes' foot
they all have, from working in rice paddies all day long.  _Obviously_.
</true story>  That they were faster on the ground just PROVES Soviets
clearly were secretly supplying antifungal foot powder!!!!


Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

tc+ !tg ge+@ 3i- jt- st- ls- kk hi+ as-- va dr+ so+(-) zh+ vi+ da-- !sy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:33:26 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Philosophy- what was I talking about?

It comes down to this:

There are several versions of Traveller  & we're stuck with them. 
It's an imperfect situation but then so's the whole damned universe.

We can't change the past, or even the present. There are people who hate
each of the several Traveller versions and persist in making that contempt
public. Now maybe we can't all agree on this, but what we can do is to get
on with enjoying our own favourite variants of the game without castigating
those who are trying to produce a new version (whichever) because it's not
perfect. No version is going to please everyone, unless it comes straight
from Above on tablets of stone. Since that's not going to happen, we're
stuck with a best-solution situation as put together by a bunch of mortals.

Instead of detracting, backbiting and snivelling, could we all please
either support the versions of Traveller that're going to be the future (T
4.1 and GURPS), or just ignore them? 

Cheap shots achieve nothing.

My pseudo-philosophical rant said much the same thing. 

It was nothing more or less than a comment on the state of Traveller and
the Mailing List in general....

Me? I choose to go forward... to take the imperfect and do the best I can
with it. I can't change the past but I can influence the future. So that's
what I'll do.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:44:07 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Subject: Traveller Philosophy (with apologies to MJD;)

Why apologise?

At one point the rewritten post said EXACTLY what I was thinking when I
wrote the original.

And yes, it was a comment on the endless snapping and biting of the Canon
debate, GT argument, and others....

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 11:09:20 -0500
From: "Bob Sanders" <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Automation

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
snip...

this will entail. Well looking at current trends, I can see three basic
responses:

1) Massive increase in the service sector. This is happening right now, I'm
   not sure on the exact figures, but the number of jobs in this sector
   have increased several fold in the last 20 years (I think it might even
   be an order of magnitude).

2) Reduction of working hours. A simply solution, if the number of jobs is
   halved, society responds by halving working hours effectively spliting
   each existing jobs into two jobs. This solution will have meet strong
   oposition from employers.

3) A welfare state. Another simple solution, though I'd call it a Citizen
   Wage state (you are theoretically paid a wage just for being a citizen
   and therefore "contributing" to the state).

The most likely response to increased automation would be (IMO) a lot of
option 1, a fair amount of option 2, and a bit of option 3 (even though this
is a more likely response than option 2, a permanent underclass of proles
just doesn't fit IMTU). So what do I think the results of this would be? IMO
it will create a much more stratified and heirachical society (I'd liken it
to late Victorian England). Those will "real" jobs and those who serve them.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Or a 4th option:

New services and products will be developed.  As Automation increases, and cost of
goods decreases, companies will find new ways to make money.  Already we see
products with amazing capabilities being "given" away...  cell phones...
Netscape...  etc.  And the cost of others dropping fast.  Look at the phone
industry:  ATT was forced to drop over 300,000 people a few years ago, and the cost
for long distance calling is dropping fast.  Yet the TOTAL number of jobs in the
communication industry has increased each year.  Why?  New products and services,
increased volume, new ways to use things.

Also I would expect that as more things become "low cost" other folks will be
willing, expect, desire, to pay for more "human" services/products.  Art, hand
made/tooled devices, etc.   I does not have to be a lower class that produces these
items, and I could even argue that the opposite will happen.  The few people with
real talent will be sought after like rock and roll stars of today. (You mean that
you BUILT that thingy by HAND!!!!!  I wish I could!!!)

I do not see 2 or 3 being an option.

my cr. 2.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:38:19 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: New Traveller

Well, it could always call for 5.998d2

- ----------
> From: scharlto@ifsna.com
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: New Traveller
> Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 9:56 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Traveller: Pentium?  Ghu, I hope not!  I can just imagine; the first
> printing will have an error requiring the players to roll 2d5.998.
> 
> 
> Carlos Alos-Ferrer <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> said:
> > Will it be the famous T4.1, or T5? Maybe TRAVELLER: PENTIUM?
> -----------------------------
> 
> Steven Charlton
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:40:48 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

I agree, it was way too expensive.  An all the foss art was nice, but I
could have lived with a cheaper book instead.  However I do own most of the
books up to this point.

- ----------
> From: Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement
> Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 10:12 AM
> 
> >It seems T4 didn't sell as well as we'd like.  Why?
> 
> 
> For what it's worth as an informal survey, these are my reasons for never
> buying *any* of IGs products...
> 
> 
> >- Poor layout?
> >- Lack of proof-reading?
> 
> 
> Oh, and high, high prices. [Yes, I know publishing is pricy (I do layout
> for a weekly) and the RPG market is in a slump, but come on -- $20+ US
for
> a slim softcover?!?]
> 
> Joseph R. Dietrich
> yikes@evansville.net
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:43:37 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: 3D star maps

I hate to sound like an idiot, but what is the Gliese Star Catalog?

- ----------
> From: james a clem <warmind@juno.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: 3D star maps
> Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 9:44 AM
> 
> I found a new 3d star map that uses the Gliese Star Catalog data.
> 
> Its at
> 
> http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/road/xpa18/
> 
> I haven't tried it out yet, but it looks good from the screen shots.
> 
> 
> Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
> warmind@juno.com
> www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
> IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:03:10 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Geonee Online Sourcebook

	Dear TMLers:
	Maybe you remember my always-slowly-progressing Geonee sourcebook. 
Some time ago, it was available online with the help of my friend 
Scott Galliand. Later on, he changed ISPs, and I changed countries, 
and in the process, the Sourcebook disappeared.
	I recently decided to have my own Traveller page and put my Geonee 
materials there. But I am doing it quite slowly, so I have thought in 
announcing it, although it is not completely ready yet. For the 
moment being, you will find there an introductory article (that I 
never posted before, so you can consider it new), the history up to 
milieu Zero that I posted on the TML one year ago, the timeline, and 
data on the Milieu Zero Geonee, including my revised version of 
Massilia sector.
	In due time I will be adding materials for the Geonee in The 
Rebellion and in The New Era.  Maybe even some adventures, if I 
manage to find the time.
	So, have a look if you want, and send me your comments.

	URL: www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772

	Btw, I started a collection of links. I think I asked everybody for 
permission, but maybe I forgot one or two. Tell me if you do not want 
to be linked from my page...

	Carlos Alos-Ferrer, a.k.a the Geonee-maker

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 11:06:38 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

james a clem wrote:

> True, it is sad, but like a Timex (c), it takes a licking and keeps on
> ticking.  I have _never_ seen a game survive so much turmoil before.  We
> should take some pride in being part of such a thing, even if it is just
> a game.

True.  Traveller survives in spite of itself.  It's a testament to the
powerful pull of the game universe.

You don't see this fanatical fan following for other dead games.  Any other
game, given what Traveller has been through, would have only been a memory
now...if that.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:27:47 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Asteroid

At 08:53 AM 4/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:42:16 +0200 (MET DST) Lars Adler
><adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE> writes:
>
>>I think 'Meteor' was a far better Asteroids-hit-Earth spectacle, even 
>>as
>>its twenty years older. (What happens if such a stone hits water/snow/
>>ground/a city?)
>>
>
>If it hits water, you will get a massive tsumani, capable of reaching
>many miles inland.  If such a rock impacted in the Pacific, all the
>islands would be inundated, and the coastal areas all around the Pacific
>Rim would become mud flats many miles wide.  It would be better to have
>the thing strike ground (if you can call a gigaton range blast good!).

Read Niven and Pournelle's "Lucifer's Hammer."  A great book, if a little
dated (no shuttle, first American black astronaut in space, etc.).  The
series of sequences in which the comet hits Earth are amazing, especialy in
Los Angeles.

Surf Hammerfall!!


- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:42:53 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re:FarFuture Announcement

At 08:49 AM 4/1/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>	And so, we must again bid the gospel of Marc good by.  Maybe we could
take up a donation and try to keep the company afloat.

In the name of Ghu WHY!?  IG has treated writerspoorly, shown no concern
for producing quality books, and provided almost *nothing* in way of a
direction.

I'm almost glad to see them go.
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:51:00 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

At 11:26 PM 3/31/98 EST, you wrote:
>
>For Immediate Release (April 1, 1998)
>
>March 31 marks the end of an era and the beginning of a new one.

>Far Future has re-acquired substantially all rights to all Traveller
>properties and is negotiating for a new publisher for the foundational role-
>playing rules.

I think this is for the best Marc, since it was clear to most of us that
Imperium wasn't really committed to a quality product.  If I might make a
suggestion on who I'd like to see publish Traveller..  FASA.  They produce
the best looking games on the market.  Layout, editing, artwork are all
top-notch.  Look at things like the Seattle Sourcebook for Shadowrun, or
the House/Clan books for BattleTech.  Imagine having a set of 200 page
books detailing the Imperium, the Zhodani, etc, filled with illustrations
of uniforms, medals, leading figures, corporate logos, etc., etc.

>(This is NOT an April Fools Day message).

An April Fools announcemnet would be that Starships had won and Origins Award.


- --

Douglas E. Berry
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 
Traveller Geek Code
tc+ tm+ tn- t4 tg+ tt++ to(CORPS)++
ru+ ge++ 3i jt-- au st+ ls+ va++ dr+ sw++
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:58:25 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

At 12:32 PM 4/1/98 +0000, you wrote:
>It seems T4 didn't sell as well as we'd like.  Why?
>
>- Its yet another version of the rules?

Not really.  With all due respect to the TNE contingent, many people
welcomed the return to a rules set based on CT.

>- The artwork wasn't canon?

This was one of my big problems.  The Foss artwork did nothing for me.
Traveller has always been, IMHO, hard SF.  Foss' work didn't convey that
the way the art in earlier editions did.

>- Problems with the rules?
>- Poor layout?
>- Lack of proof-reading?

These three go together.  The rules had some great ideas, but they were
bogged down by horrendous editing and proffreading.

>- Financial mismanagement?

I can't speak to that.

>_Or_  was  it  because  it  was  lacking  a  story?  CT  had  the
>storylines of the 5FW  and  the  secret  of  the  Ancients  (told
>through TAS news items and related products),  MT  had  a  strong
>storyline of the Rebellion  (told through  sometimes  conflicting
>TAS news items  and  related  products),  even  TNE  had  a  weak
>storyline of the post-3I recovery.

When CT first came out, there was no story.  I took a few years for the
Imperium and the whole idea of the Ancients to evolve.  Remember, in
Adventure 1, the Zhodani didn't even have a name!

The Milieu:0 setting had real promise, and I'm sorry it was so poorly handled.

>But I don't remember seeing much of a storyline in  T4.  Yes,  it
>fit in to the overall history of the Traveller universe,  and  it
>had its own recent history, but it didn't progress this ... there
>was no 'local' storyline.  It was just a snapshot in time.
>
>The potential was there.  We should have heard tales of political
>intrigue from the Imperial court as the old social structures  of
>Sylea are stretched to accommodate the expanding empire.  Stories
>of gold rush mentality as  fledgeling  megacorporations  race  to
>build and exploit new markets.  The inevitable frictions  as  new
>pocket empires  are  absorbed  into  the  greater  Imperium  with
>disparate world views  and  moralities.  The  scouts  making  new
>discoveries  beyond  the  growing  borders.   Acts   of   gunboat
>diplomacy from the Navy.  And the usual scandals and corruption.
>
>And it could have been told through _regular_ 'news'  updates  in
>the Journal, linked to adventures, supplementary sourcebooks, and
>novels.  The T4 setting would then come to life ... it  would  be
>vibrant and interesting ... and popular at the game  store  till.
>We'd want to know what happens next.

Excpet the new Journal lasted all of two issues.  There seemed to be a
curious lethargy in getting the ball rolling.  We couldn't even decide over
on the ISBA list what year it was!

- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 11:15:39 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

> > From: Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net>
>
> > Oh, and high, high prices. [Yes, I know publishing is pricy (I do layout
> > for a weekly) and the RPG market is in a slump, but come on -- $20+ US
> for
> > a slim softcover?!?]

But...I wouldn't mind so much if the quality was there.  I just felt cheated,
especially when I had a choice of spending my $30 on the softback, ugly,
broken, bug infested T4 basic rule book...or plopping down the same $30 for the
incredible, full color, slick page, hardback, Star Wars Second Edition Revised
& Expanded rule book that incorporates well thought out game mechanics.

Ya know, if it was 1977, the T4 rule book would have been incredible.  But
today, we demand better quality.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 11:21:18 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

>  If I might make a
> suggestion on who I'd like to see publish Traveller..  FASA.  They produce
> the best looking games on the market.  Layout, editing, artwork are all
> top-notch.  Look at things like the Seattle Sourcebook for Shadowrun, or
> the House/Clan books for BattleTech.  Imagine having a set of 200 page
> books detailing the Imperium, the Zhodani, etc, filled with illustrations
> of uniforms, medals, leading figures, corporate logos, etc., etc.
>

Let's not forget West End.  Look at their stuff.  I've been reading the Star Wars
rules lately, and they are what Traveller should have been.  The game systems are
similar (both use D6's, both have skills based on stats, both have similar skill
lists, etc.).  It would be a snap to base a Traveller rules system on the
incredible system in Star Wars.

I'd like to see a major overhaul on the Traveller rules, whichever way Marc goes.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:21:12 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
> Joe Pettit wrote:
> 
> > MJ Dougherty wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Only God is perfect.
> >
> > I could have done without this line.
> 
> Me too.
> 
> > > I can merely do my best.
> 
> You aren't by including the above.
> 
> > > So I shall.
> 
> Better would not be posting such to TML at all.
> 
> Bloo

Censorship is censorship, whether it is imposed from above (via the government)
or below (via peer pressure).

Envy him the joy of his faith.
Explore the discomfort it obviously brings you.

- -or-

Like me (until multiple posts brought it to my attention), ignore it as
irrelavent.

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:26:06 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff

As others were doing so, I thought I'd put my .02IMpCr in...

Poul Anderson's Dominic Flandry series (especially _The Rebel Worlds_,
_Ensign Flandry_, _Agent of the Terran Empire_ and _A Stone in Heaven_).
Flandry is an intergalactic intelligence agent for an empire that is just plain
humungous, so many stars that even the ones they claim have often never
been visited by anything more than a prospector's starship or a scout just
passing through. Flandry is risking life and limb, by his way of thinking,
to hold off the Long Night of interstellar social collapse that is coming. He
is often in situations where he could call in the Navy, but they would break
things and leave little glowing craters all over the place - so he looks for other
solutions. Well written, and good reads.

Keith Laumer's Retief series (lots of titles with "Retief" iin them).
Retief is a diplomat with the Terran diplomatic corps. The entire series
is a parody of diplomatic niceties, as light as the Flandry books are
dark. Interesting contrasts, as both Flandry and Retief are called upon as
troubleshooters of similarly-scaled planetary revolts, interstellar intrigues and
such. Retief's best bit - he's been given a packet of sealed orders, to be opened
at his destination and followed _to the letter_. In it is every nuance of protocol,
regulation and advice needed to see him through this situation. He graciously
accepts it, and dumps it unread down an incinerator shaft on his way to his
spaceship...

Alan Dean Foster's _Icerigger_ - a botched kidnapping attempt aboard a starliner
leads to a band of unlikely travellers (most with "Player Character" stamped on their
foreheads) crashing a lifeboat on a frozen world. Great bits of high-tech castaways
dealing with low-tech (but smart and well-developed) natives.
Foster's _For Love of Mother Not_ and other books in that series are also good reads - 
pretty light, but a good feel for the fringes of a cosmopolitan interstellar society.

Andre Norton's _Dark Piper_ - interstellar society is starting to break down, and an injured
soldier returning to his homeworld warns that others will come from the sky, soldiers with
no causes to fight for anymore and looking for a world to plunder. Only a group of misfit
youths take him seriously, and only they escape the invasion. Powerful work, like most from
Norton.

There was also a book called _Star Viking_, I think by Hal Clement - probably one of _the_ most
obvious sources for Classic Traveller - the Sword Worlds in the Spinward Marches have the same 
names as the planets in this book. Breakup in interstellar society occurs, and intrepid adventurers
(and greedy thugs) take to the stars as reavers, then as conquerors, and finally as builders.


Others as well, but these are some of the ones that most inspire my sci-fi RPG perambulations.


Walt Smith
- ---------------------------
"The mome rath hasn't been born that can outgrabe me..."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:27:31 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

ouch.

So does this mean that T4.1 will be published, or are we going to start
redesigning the universe again?

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:36:30 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: FFFB influence

Kenji said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Just a quick tale about human wave tactics, and psycology.  There is a
>story from Korea about such an event, when the PRC used these tactics
>against a series of UN lines.  The Americans were the first line, and
>when they ran out of ammo, they fell back.  The second line was British,
>and when they ran out of ammo, they fell back.  The third line was a
>Turkish unit.  Now, when they ran out of ammo, they didn't fall back.
>They still used swords then, so they drew blades and started lopping off
>heads.  The PRC broke and ran.  Why?  To their mindset/religion losing
>your head keeps you from being reincarnated/reborn/going to heaven/etc.

Okay.  I'm no expert on Chinese folklore or religion per se, but I play one
on the TML^H^H^H^H but I've spent a good portion of the last 20-odd years
living there and reading about and studying the damn place -- and I've
never heard of this belief.  This story, rather, sounds suspiciously like
the idiot analyses by funny-if-they-weren't-guiding-the-military
"intelligence community" that were so popular back then.  Not now, of
course
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The more probably cause of the above wasn't the loss of heads, it was the
well-known scariness of Turkish troops.

One of my father's friends was in Korea during the war. He tells me it was
standard operating procedure for the Chinese to hit a UN unit with everything
they could the first night after that unit was newly rotated into the line.

They did it to a Turkish unit _once_.

Individual Turks from the unit positioned near his got a reputation for getting
bored, disappearing for an hour or so and coming back with a half-dozen
human ears.


Obtrav - that indiginous or alien trooper may wear the same helmet and carry
the same laser rifle you do, but that doesn't mean he has the same concept
of "civilized" that you do. Even if he's human...


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:36:19 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: The future of Traveller?

I found this annoucement on FarFuture's web site - not sure why Marc hasn't
posted it to the list (embarrassment, possibly.) 


FarFuture Enterprises is pleased to announce the successful conclusion of its
negotiations for a new company to develop and publish Traveller products. 
The new home of Traveller will be White Wolf, publisher of the highly
succesful "World of Darkness" games, including "Vampire: The Masquerade."

The new edition of Traveller will be known as "Traveller: The Voyaging". 
A White Wolf spokesman stated that they will be taking the opportunity to
move Traveller in several new directions, emphasizing aspects of the game
that they consider to have been previously neglected:

	-Players will take the roll of various groups outcast from normal
society, including psionicists, criminals, space pirates, and exotic
character types such as surviving Ancients (decendents of a god-like
being known as Grandfather.) 

	-Traditional Traveller players are, basically, wimps, with (at best)
technological parity with the rest of society. "Traveller: The Voyaging" will
reverse this trend, giving players access to technology not generally available,
to Really Big Guns, and to advanced psionic powers. "We believe individual
players, with their personal weapons, should have the ability to devastate
entire cities; that's the point of SF role-playing, after all. Players should
have access to starships capable of destroying whole worlds. Psionic player
characters will be much more powerful than in previous editions of Traveller - 
psionic powers will be central to Traveller: The Voyaging"

	-Dark, brooding, gothic style will be emphasized much more. "We
haven't yet decided which era of Traveller's rich history to set our 
product in, but we're considering such popular eras as the Hard Times at the
end of the civil war of previous Traveller editions, or the massively-popular
"New Era".

	-Gratuitous sex and sexual activity will also be central to 
"Traveller: The Voyaging", with a 10-page section of rules governing this
most central of activities. "Traveller never really explored sex much - we're
going to reverse that, and take advantage of Traveller's varied alien
species to emphasize interspecies relations. Sex between humans and such
alien species as the lionlike Aslan, the doglike Vargr, the peaceful 
Centaurs, and the mysterious Hivers will be covered in the basic rules.
Future supplements may include "Sex Lives of the Ancients".

The artwork for "Traveller: The Voyaging" will also reflect new directions
for Traveller. In the tradition of Imperium Games, White Wolf has secured
rights to reprint artwork from a popular science-fiction artist for 
cover and interior art. "The artist we've selected is H.R. Giger, who will
bring an exciting new look to Traveller." 

The new rules will be based on White Wolf's existing World of Darkness
system, with additions for such things as starship travel and design. 
However, these rules will also reflect White Wolf's traditional emphasis
on storytelling and ease of play. "Previous Traveller starship rules
required players to be capable of such complex mathematical operations as
addition and subtraction. Our core audience isn't interested in math - so
our rules will emphasize the fun of playing "My starship is bigger than
your starship" over the details. If a player wants his new starship to 
be ten times faster than anything built before, who are we to say that
isn't possible?" White Wolf also promises to bring the accurate physics
of "Star Wars" and "Star Trek" to the Traveller universe.

White Wolf expects to release it's first "Traveller: The Voyaging" ruleset
one year from today, on April 1, 1999. Other supplements will follow at
precisely one-year interludes. The first supplement will be available in
hardback with a full-cover original Giger cover - most likely in a plain
brown wrapper due to its nature - for a price of $60 US. 

Far Future enterprises has announced that they are very pleased with this
arrangement. "From our standpoint, White Wolf brings two major assets to
the table. They have an excellent distribution system (their products
are available in major bookstores), and they have big buckets of money,
which they're willing to share", said a FF spokeman.

The identities of the designers for WW's "Traveller: The Voyaging" haven't
been annouced, but WW is in negotiation with several famous Traveller
fans and contributors, including Ken Whitman, and a person known only as
"Leroy". Most of the famous proofreading and layout staff from Imperium Games
will also be brought on board.

"Traveller: The Voyaging" - the true future of Traveller!






















































(Close-caption for the humor impaired: April Fools!)

Bruce

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #343
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 1 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 344



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Azhanti high lightning aucton
RE: Asteroid
Review: Twilight Imperium
Re: FarFuture Announcement
RE: Philosophy?
New Traveller setting?
Re: 3D star maps
Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)
Re: Philosophy?
Re: FarFuture Announcement
RE: Philosophy?
Note to Marc
Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff
Re: The future of Traveller?
Re: 3D star maps
RE: Philosophy?
Re:FarFuture Announcement

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 11:44:36 -0600
From: Paul Kerby <ybrekp@mtco.com>
Subject: Azhanti high lightning aucton

I have the following item to offer for auction


Azhanti High LIghtning Auction 1
Initial posting

Auction Rules:

1. All bids or questions should be mailed to ybrekp@mtco.com with a
heading of
 AHL AUCTION.

2. This auction will run from 04/01/1998 thru 04/15/1998 and then go
into going1,
 going2, gone phase with 2 days between levels.

3. Bids are in US Dollars, with $1 minimum increments.  The top 5 bids
will be listed.

4. Bids will be dealt with on a first come/first considered basis.  In
case of tie
 bids, the first bid received will be considered highest.  You will be
notified
 when your bid is received.  A dialy update of the auction will be sent
to all
 participants, unless you notify me to not include you in the update
postings.

5. The auction is open to All.  Please let me know when you place your
bids if you
 are outside the continental (48) United States.

6. Payment by money order or cashier's check in US funds only.  Items
will be shipped
 the day following receipt of payment.

7. Buyer is responsible for shipping.  I will ship either US Postal or
UPS, depending
 on the size of the item.  If you wish insurance, that is fine; but, if
you do not
 want insurance and something happens to the item, I will not be
responsible.  Other
 arrangements may be considered on a case by case basis.  Sorry, no
CODs.

8. Buyouts will be accepted.  Buyouts should be the listed buyout amount
or twice (2x),
 the highest bid, whichever is greater.  Buyouts will be listed as high
bid in going2
 status.  If no one out-bids the buyout bid, it is yours.

9. If payment is not received within 2 weeks of confirmation of buyers
final total, the
 next highest bidder will be notified of the items availability.

10. To avoid spammers, full email addresses will not be posted with
bids.

11.  I reserve the right to pull items from or add items to this list at
any time.

12. Auction will be updated daily, starting on 04/03/1998.


ITEM:   Azhanti HIgh Lightning boxed set
     Box -  Fair condition.  This has been squashed.  All the corners
have been broken
              and retaped.  Generally looks it's age.
     Maps -  Excellent.  No tears, stains that I can find or other
problems other
               than some light wear from use
     AHL rules -  Excellent.  Some light wear along the spine from use.
No tears or
              stains.
     Supp. 5 -    Excellent.  Some light wear along the spine from use.
No tears or
              stains.
     Counters - Partially punched.  May include a few extras from other
sets.  All in zipper bags.

 Overall in VG condition, other than the box.

 Minimum bid  - $50,  Buyout  -  $175 (please read rule #8 above for
buyout offers).

Thanks for your attention.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:27:29 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Asteroid

Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE> wrote:

>Maybe that's the point, why ID4 itself did not appeal that much to me.
>Everything took place in the US. But I do not live in the US. Sorry.

The thing that wound me up about ID4 was the RAF flying F16s. Grrr. Aside
from that it was quite pleasant mind/eye candy.

Dom

PS Although I would like to know where Jeff Goldblum got his PowerBook's
battery from and if you can get one for a PowerBook190...

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:40:46 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Review: Twilight Imperium

Twilight Imperium
By CT Petersen, Fantasy Flight Publishing, 1997, $44.95 US, 35UK

This is a SciFi Board game that I came across at our local Virgin
Megastore. It is for 2 to 6 players (better with more), all of which take
the side of a warring faction trying to regain the glory of a once faded
empire. The feel is sort of a blend between Traveller, Foundation and Dune.

Each race has a certain skill (for example diplomacy) which is beneficial,
and a certain technology profile which may give them edges in different
areas (weapons, propulsion, general). These profiles all vary at the start
and are somewhat reminisent of the technology architecture profiles
discussed in TNE and FFS1.

The game map is different each time, made from hex tiles in a similar
matter to Settlers of Catan. the centre of the map is always the former
Imperial capital Mexatol Rex and the home worlds of the players are always
out on the rim of the map which is made of three further hex rings, placed
in turn by the players. Cetain hexes are impassible or pose dangers
(supernovas and asteroid belts), others are empty or contain one or more
worlds. Each world has a resources rating (used for obtaining funds) and an
influence rating (used for voting at the council at Mexatol Rex).

The aim of the game is to fulfill a number of victory conditions - namely
to increase technology above a certain level, hold a certain number of
planets, and have a certain amount of influence (which effectively means
you must conquer the former Imperial Capital). As these conditions are met
the player moves up a progression chart.

Each turn includes income from planets (resources held), income from trade
agreements, a political phase at the former capital (here a variety of laws
are debated which can be beneficial or detrimental to individual players,
ranging from execution to limits on dreadnought construction), ship
construction and movement and combat.

The combat system is very simple and uses a D10 roll higher than a target
number. Ships available are Fighters (weak but cheap), Cruisers (fast but
weaker than dreadnoughts), Dreadnoughts (slow but lethal) and Carriers
(necessary to support fighters, and to carry Planetary Defence Systems and
Ground Forces). These are all manufactured at orbital spacedocks which can
be blockaded or destroyed. All vessels can take one hit, but the defender
chooses which die first. Simple but very playable.

In addition to the normal phases, each player has a number of action cards
which can be used to favour the rules (benefits for starships, extra moves,
spanners to throw in the opponent's works).

Conclusion - would I recommend it? Yes. It is not as detailed as FFW, but
is a great game to pass away an evening with a few friends and the flavour
is close to Traveller.

Notes: There is a new expansion pack (Borderlands) which adds political
assassinations, improvements to dreadnought and carrier toughness, two new
races, new action and political cards and minefields. Not played this one
yet.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:52:24 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

I wish there was some way to know what did go wrong with Imperium - 
actual sales figures, for example. The early products did seem to be
selling pretty well - it took me a long time to find a copy of the basic
T4 rules set. So where did the money go? They clearly weren't spending that
much on typsetting, or proofreading, or paying their authors...I supppose
sales on later products must have been pretty terrible; perhaps they were overprinting?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:49:13 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: RE: Philosophy?

At 09:58 AM 4/1/98 -0600, you wrote:

>> Better would not be posting such to TML at all.
>
>And who praytell died and made you list moderator?!
>
>Last time I checked this is an open forum, not a moderated, invitation-only
>list like HIWG or my own T4 list.

It had nothing to do whatsoever ith Traveller in any form, or with
Real-World news or technology that could be applied to the game.  Those of
us with genetic cancers tend to find the concept of a perfect god a little
annoying.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:53:08 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: New Traveller setting?

I would like, if I may, to make a small suggestion.

Set the new Traveller just after the Civil War, during the Arbertella
Regency.  Now there's a setting.  Intigue, mopping up the last of the
Pretenders in the Fleet, political jockeying in the Court, and the rumors
that there is a legitmate heir to be found..

Just my .02Cr.


- --

Douglas E. Berry
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 
Traveller Geek Code
tc+ tm+ tn- t4 tg+ tt++ to(CORPS)++
ru+ ge++ 3i jt-- au st+ ls+ va++ dr+ sw++
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:41:01 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: 3D star maps

At 10:43 AM 4/1/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I hate to sound like an idiot, but what is the Gliese Star Catalog?

A very authortative listing of known stars.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 19:55:36 +0200
From: Philip ESPI <Philip.Espi@Capway.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)

Bolie Williams IV wrote:

> I would be interested in finding out how they determine social
> security
> numbers since the only inquiry I ever heard of received a curt and
> very
> final denial followed by a click.

Here, in France, our social security code goes like this :

1    68    03    30    189    252

1st digit for gender (1=male, 2=female) could be expanded in the 3I to
include alpha and beta males and females for species having these
differenciations, and preceded by an other digit (or letter) for the
race : 1 for human (obviously more numerous), 2 for aslan, 3 for vargr
.....

2nd, 3d and 4th numbers for year, month and day of birth

5th number for the city code where you're born (could add the star
system code and sector code in the 3I)

6th number is for your "birth rank" (I was the 252th child to be born in
this city on march 30th 1968)

Very easy to remember the first four numbers, obviously, only numeric
keys, so it's easy to type, too.

Could be more readable if you include some letters for sector code,
species, etc, but harder to type.

anyway, my 0.02 Cr ...

- --
Phil
- --------------------------------
Do or do not,
There is no try.
                 Yoda (SW:TESB)

Mailto:Philip.Espi@Capway.com
- --------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 13:06:34 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> At 09:58 AM 4/1/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >> Better would not be posting such to TML at all.
> >
> >And who praytell died and made you list moderator?!
> >
> >Last time I checked this is an open forum, not a moderated, invitation-only
> >list like HIWG or my own T4 list.
>
> It had nothing to do whatsoever ith Traveller in any form, or with
> Real-World news or technology that could be applied to the game.  Those of
> us with genetic cancers tend to find the concept of a perfect god a little
> annoying.

Actually, the message had it own built in logic inconsistencies.  Note that I
don't follow this opinion:God created the universe
The universe is imperfect
Thus God made a mistake
Thus God is not perfect

The argument then follows that God may have INTENTIONALLY made the universe
imperfect.
If that's true, then God is sadistic.
Sadism is a character flaw
Thus God is not perfect

Personally I'd like to see a sci-fi apocolyptic novel that starts:
... on the fifth day, God created Man... That was his first mistake...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 13:14:22 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

At 09:52 AM 4/1/98 -0800, Bruce wrote:
>I wish there was some way to know what did go wrong with Imperium - 
>actual sales figures, for example. The early products did seem to be
>selling pretty well - it took me a long time to find a copy of the basic
>T4 rules set. So where did the money go? They clearly weren't spending that
>much on typsetting, or proofreading, or paying their authors...I supppose
>sales on later products must have been pretty
>terrible; perhaps they were overprinting?

It was mentioned several years go when GDW started its down slope, I think
in a letter in Challenge.  Game publishers survive on retail reorders.
That is places like Walden Books  place restock orders.  The initial order
basically recovers printing costs and your ongoing costs, like salary and
advertising have to be paid out of future sales.  

New products aren't the answer, the initial order only pays for production
run, not for the long term survivability.  

It requires a) a big enough customer base.  We don't want to face reality,
but there are not enough Traveller players out there to make it a viable
product.  b) products structured to draw more people into the market.  An
example here is why include everything in one book.  Make a separate
players book with player information.  In a group of 6 players, they might
spring for 3 or 4 copies of a players book, but only one or two of a full
book.

We also have to face the reality that RPG's are not as popular as they were
in the late 70's and through the 80's.    You have to have a way to draw
new fans to the game.  In todays society that isn't as easy as it was 20
years ago.

Another reality we have to face is those die-hard gamers from the 70's and
80's have grown out of playing.   12 of our employees once gamed.  The
total currently gaming is 3.

How can Traveller Survive?  I don't have the answers.  The story is great
and maybe the future is something electronic or non-print media related.
But to pay writers and artists requires continuous and substantial income.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:21:04 -0500
From: Chris Jones <Cjones@manhattanassociates.com>
Subject: RE: Philosophy?

> Actually, the message had it own built in logic inconsistencies.  Note
> that I
> don't follow this opinion:God created the universe
> The universe is imperfect
> Thus God made a mistake
> Thus God is not perfect
> 
> The argument then follows that God may have INTENTIONALLY made the
> universe
> imperfect.
> If that's true, then God is sadistic.
> 
[->]   The above doesn't neccesarily follow.  Is a teacher who gives a
difficult math test sadistic?  Is a doctor who amputates your leg to
save your life sadistic?  Just because someone sets up circustances that
are less than pleasing to others doesn't make them sadistic.

Ok, back to lurking....

> Sadism is a character flaw
> Thus God is not perfect
> 
> Personally I'd like to see a sci-fi apocolyptic novel that starts:
> ... on the fifth day, God created Man... That was his first mistake...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 12:23:45 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Note to Marc

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

>         Reminds me of something... OK, no the Universe is not expanding
> anymore, so, there is no reason to make an effort to keep
> compatibility with IG materials... I go back to MT, and put them all
> in the "materials pool".

I agree completely!

IG provided Traveller with some good concepts in their game mechanics, but the
execution was poor.

I'd like to see T5 be the epitome of a game system, and I've been toying with
something that I believe could be the answer to Traveller's future.

For your inspection, here's what I sent Marc Miller today in the wake of the
news.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eureka!!

I've devised something that could change the face of Traveller.  Let's
see what you think of it.

When you are shopping for a new publisher for T4 (or T5, T6, or
whatever),
CONSIDER THIS....

- ---------------------------------------------------------
IMPROVED TASK SYSTEM FOR TRAVELLER
- ---------------------------------------------------------

1:  STATS are added to the task roll at full value.
     STATS are modifiers that improve the task roll.

     EX:  If you have a 7 Dex, then you add 7 points to your roll.  If
     you are wounded, and your
     Dex is lowered to 5, then you only add 5 points to the roll.


2:  SKILLS give you DICE to roll on a task.

     EX:  If you have Pistol-2, you add 2 six siders to the roll.


3:  DIFFICULTY is a set of numbers as used in MT.

     EX:         Difficulty          Difficulty Numbers
                    -----------------------------------------
                    Very Easy                        5
                    Easy                                10
                    Average                          15
                    Difficult                          20
                    Formidable                     30
                    Staggering                       31+


       *difficulty numbers and difficulty categories are for illustration
purposes only.
         I have done no number crunching to support these values.
         I am only trying to explain the concept.



HERE'S AN EXAMPLE OF PLAY:

       Billy the Gunfighter
       DEX 7
       Pistol-2

Billy wants to fire his weapon at a bad guy.  He gets to roll 3D6+7.
Range to the target will determine difficulty.

Range to the target is medium for the weapon.  Let's say that works out
to be a average roll (again, these numbers and difficulties are for
illustration only.  I'm selling concept here, not a finished task
system).

Billy needs to roll 16+ to hit his target (he needs to beat the 15
target number).

He rolls 3D6+7.  He gets 1 D6 die because even the unskilled have a shot
at something.  He gets 2 D6 from his skill level.  And, he gets the 7
point modifier because of his Dex.

He rolls.  If he rolls over 15, he hits the target.  If he rolls below
the target number, he misses.



HERE'S HOW OTHER TASK CONCEPTS WILL FIT INTO THIS SYSTEM:
(all numbers below are for illustration only)

SPECTACULAR SUCCESS:  If Bill rolls 10 points over the target number, he
achieves SS.

SPECTACULAR FAILURE:  If Bill rolls 10 points below the target number,
he rolls a SF.

FATE DIE:  The first die Bill gets (not the 2 dice from his skill) is a
fate die.  This should be a different color from the rest.  If a 6 is
rolled on this die, he gets to roll the die again, adding to his total,
making it easier for him to roll SS.  If a 1 is rolled on this die, the
highest die from his roll is subtracted from the total, making it easier
for him roll SF.



WHAT DOES THIS TASK SYSTEM DO FOR TRAVELLER?

1.  It's very easy to learn and explain, as I have shown here.

2.  It works well within the Traveller genre.  People can see exactly
what their character's skills and attributes bring to the table.

3.  It resolves the STAT vs. SKILL debate with the T4 rules.

4.  It makes that pesky half die a thing of the past.  It is a moot
point now.

5.  It only uses 6 sided die--a prerequisite for Traveller in my book.

6.  It fits flawlessly into the existing Traveller character generation
system.

7.  All T4 rules will be an easy conversion to this system for a new
rule book.

8.  There is no multiplication or division (the KISS system, Keep It
Simple Stupid).

9.  Since STATS are added to the roll as modifiers, it is not a problem
to adjust a roll because the character is wounded.

10.  It would be easy to convert all of the work you have done with T4.1
to this system, and I believe that this system is superior to the one
currently used in T4.1.



Marc, I'd like to see this new Traveller be not just the best Traveller
edition ever, but the best role playing game ever.

What do you think?

Kenneth Bearden
dreamer@brokersys.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 10:23:04 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff

At 12:26 PM 4/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>As others were doing so, I thought I'd put my .02IMpCr in...

>Keith Laumer's Retief series (lots of titles with "Retief" iin them).
>Retief is a diplomat with the Terran diplomatic corps. The entire series
>is a parody of diplomatic niceties, as light as the Flandry books are
>dark. 

Keith Laumer was a member of the US Forgein sefvice for many years.  He's
been quoted saying that he never had to write fiction, just write his
memoirs in brighter colors.

>Alan Dean Foster's _Icerigger_ - a botched kidnapping attempt aboard a
starliner leads to a band of unlikely travellers (most with "Player
Character" stamped on their foreheads) crashing a lifeboat on a frozen world.

there is a sequel, "Mission to Molukan", which is almost as good.

>There was also a book called _Star Viking_, I think by Hal Clement -
probably one of _the_ most obvious sources for Classic Traveller - the
Sword Worlds in the Spinward Marches have the same names as the planets in
this book. Breakup in interstellar society occurs, and intrepid adventurers
>(and greedy thugs) take to the stars as reavers, then as conquerors, and
finally as builders.

Space Viking, by H. Beam Piper. 

One of the odder references I've been using recently is the PBS children's
science program "Bill Nye, the Science Guy."  Laugh if you will, but each
show explains some interesting concepts along a central theme, and Bill is
science's answer to Robin Williams.
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:38:44 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: The future of Traveller?

>I found this annoucement on FarFuture's web site - not sure why Marc hasn't
>posted it to the list (embarrassment, possibly.)
>
>
>FarFuture Enterprises is pleased to announce the successful conclusion of its
>negotiations for a new company to develop and publish Traveller products.
>The new home of Traveller will be White Wolf, publisher of the highly
>succesful "World of Darkness" games, including "Vampire: The Masquerade."


<kaaaa-snip!>

Ooh ooh!!! I wanna play a methusela vampire changling were-Sayat mage
retired from the imperial marines, complete with mustering-out battledress
and a personal Sylea-class "yacht" with the black globe upgrade and a
kung-fu grip!

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:43:18 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: 3D star maps

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:43:37 -0600 "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net> writes:
>I hate to sound like an idiot, but what is the Gliese Star Catalog?


Dont feel bad, the only dumb question is the one you dont ask.  Gliese is
a collection of stellar data for stars within, I think, 70 light years of
Sol.  Tons of data.  


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:51:57 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: RE: Philosophy?

DIE! DIE! DIE! Evil, non-Traveller-related thread!!!!

ObTrav: If Traveller is going to be put out by a new publisher, what
setting will be the focus, eh? Will it be Mileu Zero, or something else?

Er, never mind. That'd just start a brawl too.

ObTrav: Bruce, (can you hear me out there?) did you ever come up with
patches for your sensor rules that included handling force fields? If so,
where can I get them?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:55:17 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re:FarFuture Announcement

>- - The artwork wasn't canon?

The artwork SUCKED!

>- - Poor layout?
>- - Lack of proof-reading?

YES!  

>_Or_  was  it  because  it  was  lacking  a  story?  CT  had  the
>storylines of the 5FW  and  the  secret  of  the  Ancients  (told
>through TAS news items and related products),  MT  had  a  strong
>storyline of the Rebellion  (told through  sometimes  conflicting
>TAS news items  and  related  products),  even  TNE  had  a  weak
>storyline of the post-3I recovery.

TNE's story was much stronger than Megatraveller's (which WAS CTs story). Very
little was ever revealed.  The much reviled San*klaas was the beginning of a
story about the Ithklur quest for freedom.   They're worried very much that
the whole thing could be another damned Hiver manipulation...  but would that
get passed the closed minded?  The Empress Wave, the Black Curtain...  it was
ALL coming out...  
   The post-3I recovery is a remnant of the Old Era... the New Era is right
around the corner...  what we saw was a prologue of sorts.

Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #344
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 1 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 345



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The future of Traveller?
Marc's pages?
Re: Philosophy?
The Long Gallop Forwards
Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff
Please no more RL religion on TML-notext-(was Re: Philosophy?)
Chat Topic: Traveller Timeline
AHL Supplement 5
Re:FarFuture Announcement
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)
Re: Re:FarFuture Announcement
re: AHL Auction posts
Re: Note to Marc
Re: A question
Re: The future of Traveller?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)
re: The Traveller Geek (or, the IMTU code)
Another CT Product Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:09:11 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The future of Traveller?

semo@pil.net


> From: Bruce Alan Macintosh <bmac@astro.ucla.edu>
> 
> "Traveller: The Voyaging" - the true future of Traveller!

Sometimes, I feel so lucky that I'm not drinking a soda at the exact moment
that I read some of these messages.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:14:05 -0500
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Marc's pages?

Could someone post or send me the URL of Marc's page?

Thanks,

John Kovalic


**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
              "Dork Tower," "Wild Life," "Beached," "Murphy's Rules":
           at 'TOON CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:14:33 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

Chris Jones wrote:

> > Actually, the message had it own built in logic inconsistencies.  Note
> > that I
> > don't follow this opinion:God created the universe
> > The universe is imperfect
> > Thus God made a mistake
> > Thus God is not perfect
> >
> > The argument then follows that God may have INTENTIONALLY made the
> > universe
> > imperfect.
> > If that's true, then God is sadistic.
> >
> [->]   The above doesn't neccesarily follow.  Is a teacher who gives a
> difficult math test sadistic?  Is a doctor who amputates your leg to
> save your life sadistic?  Just because someone sets up circustances that
> are less than pleasing to others doesn't make them sadistic.

That doesn't hold water...
You're assuming God created the Universe to test man.  But man did not exist
when God created the Universe. Likewise, if he was perfect he would have
gotten it right on the first day, none of this tacking on a little bit at a
time.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:25:11 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: The Long Gallop Forwards

TNS: 090-0002, Sylea/Core

At a press conference held today outside the embassy compound of the Sayat
Concourse, Ms. Tunngardaya, an official of unknown rank within the
Concourse diplomatic corps, announced that the entirety of the Sayat
Concourse was relocating 1100 years into the future.

"Just for starters," clarified Tunngardaya.  "Maybe further.  We understand
there's some Evil Alien Scum-induced temporal instability right around 1108
or so, but Time Control Laboratories are working to ensure we end up in the
_right_ universe.  With our... friends."

Asked why an entire interstellar civilization was undertaking wholesale
temporal emigration, Ms. Tunngardaya cited boredom with the young Third
Imperium.  "Smug sterility of the imagination.  Who wants to listen to
so-called adventurers endlessly replaying the same set of
dominance/submission fantasies with their peculiar marketplace fetish?
Then they sit around the Moot castigating each other for failing to imagine
how technologically baroque and economically efficient their civilization
is, while scoffing at any suggestion that its social and economic bases
aren't "natural" and could just as well be different.  A milieu full of
schizo _and_ hypocritical mutant primates isn't worth the headache caused
by their constant self-applause.  Even if it's fun to tease them.

"Besides, we have our keyboards to think of.  Every once in a while there's
something worthwhile that comes up, and then it tends to come up through
our noses."

Ms. Tunngardaya firmly denied rumors that this most recent defection is in
some way connected with the mysterious disappearance of Famille Spofulam
earlier this year.  "While we miss the invigorating presence of the
Spofulam comrades, we are definitely not planning to rendezvous with them
anywhere the galactic core and begin making preparations for toppling the
unrealistic, improbable recycled cookie-cutter civilizations of known
space.  We're not even going to those drug drug and fusion-plus raves with
those guys any more.  In fact, we don't even know where they went.
Absolutely not.  And we aren't holding any of their children in hidden
military creches either."

The Sayat Concourse will maintain its Cosmic Friendship Outreach and
Munitions Showcase at its current location on the WWW.  A consular presence
will shortly be opened on the TNE-RCES channel.

Ait genekseneikel --

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

tc+ !tg ge+@ 3i- jt- st- ls- kk hi+ as-- va dr+ so+(-) zh+ vi+ da-- !sy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 11:31:01 -0800
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff

Walter G. Smith wrote:
> There was also a book called _Star Viking_, I think by Hal Clement - probably one of _the_ most
> obvious sources for Classic Traveller - the Sword Worlds in the Spinward Marches have the same
> names as the planets in this book. Breakup in interstellar society occurs, and intrepid adventurers
> (and greedy thugs) take to the stars as reavers, then as conquerors, and finally as builders.

SPACE VIKING - by one of my all-time favorite authors H. Beam Piper.

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:37:35 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Please no more RL religion on TML-notext-(was Re: Philosophy?)



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 13:45:09 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Chat Topic: Traveller Timeline

Are there still regular traveller chats going, and if so, who do I submit
a topic proposal to...

I've been reviewing my "two years in coming" timeline update, and there
are some issues - so I envisioned posting part of the update to the web
about a week before we would gather to chat about it - like a series of
discussions on Traveller events - the following are some logical chunks
to go through the timeline with:

The Ancient Period (before -9235 Imperial)
	all events prior to the Vilani rediscovery of the Jump Drive	
The Vilani Period (between -9235 and -2219 Imperial)
	between the discovery of Jump Drive by the Vilani and their 
	conquest by the Terran Confederation
The Long Night (between -2219 and -57 Imperial)
	between the fall of Vland to the Terrans and the birth of Cleon I
The Early Imperium (between -57 and 244 Imperial)
	from the birth of Cleon I and the death of Martin II without heir
The Antebellum Years (between 244 and 588 Imperial)
	from the death of Martin II through the admission of the Old Earth
	Union to the Third Imperium
The Civil War (between 588 and 622 Imperial)
	from the admission of Terra to the Third Imperium through the 
	proclamation of Grand Admiral Alkhalikoi as Regent	
The Restoration Period (between 622 and 767 Imperial)
	from the proclamation of Regency through the death of Paulo I
The Psionic Suppressions (between 767 and 836 Imperial)
	from the death of Paulo I through the death of Paula II
The Solomani War (between 836 and 1005 Imperial)
	from the death of Paula II through the foundation of the Solomani
	Home Guard by the Solomani Confederation
The Spinward Expansion (between 1005 and 1100 Imperial)
	from the foundation of the Solomani Home Guard through the first
	publication of Travellers' Digest
The Classic Campaign (between 1100 and 1107 Imperial)
	from Travellers' Digest #1 through the start of the Fifth Frontier
	War
The Fifth Frontier War (between 1107 and 1116 Imperial)
	from the start of the Fifth Frontier War up to the planning of 
	Strephon's assassination	

Separate but obvious topics: "The Rebellion", and "The New Era"

DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: 01 Apr 1998 14:46 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: AHL Supplement 5

No, I don't have it.

I wonder if someone would like to photocopy it for me?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 12:07:44 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re:FarFuture Announcement

...
>rushing out badly proofread/layouted, canon-checked books. Trav has
>actually gained something from this as GT will probably sell more because
>of this and MM might try to do his T4.1/T5 thing without all the errors
>most, if not all, products from IG had. Good riddance.

  Well put, and likely true too.

  I bought T4 stuff and stacked it on my "to read" shelf. Once I read
Starships (and T4 - M:0 was OK) I stopped buying, eve at 20 to 40% off.

  If it were possible to order G:T or other Trav stuff already, I'd be
trying to do so. As it is, I'll just keep looking for the old stuff
that I'm missing.

        Steven Hudson

BTW, is VargrA8C7A@aol.com still on the TML?
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:21:28 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

> From: Bruce Alan Macintosh <bmac@astro.ucla.edu>
> 
> I wish there was some way to know what did go wrong with Imperium - 
> actual sales figures, for example. The early products did seem to be
> selling pretty well - it took me a long time to find a copy of the basic
> T4 rules set. So where did the money go? They clearly weren't spending that
> much on typsetting, or proofreading, or paying their authors...I supppose
> sales on later products must have been pretty
> terrible; perhaps they were overprinting?

Unless we have the actual sales figures, the whole thing becomes pure
speculation.  Not that I'm above pure speculation, mind you.

The actual outside look of the books was pretty bland.  They didn't really
look interesting.  Further, there was something about the covers that
smacked of shodiness, but I'm still not sure exactly what it was.  They
looked "cheap".  Foss compounded the problem for me, for reasons that I've
already gone into many times.  I think that this was the beginning of the
downfall.  If nobody wants to even pick up the books and leaf through them,
you've lost the battle entirely.

Then, if someone wanted to pick up the books and leaf through them, that's
when the second problem became apparent.  The layout was terrible.  Pages
and pages of text with no illustrations or special formatting to break up
the monotony.  This is a big problem to me, and one that really turns me
off.  Tables were moved away from the locations that they should have been
in, requiring much page turning back and forth.  A big problem in the rule
book, in my own humble opinion.

So, now, the only people actually buying the book are those that know and
love Traveller, or those that are really, really interested in Traveller. 
The initial sales were good, but I'm willing to bet that they weren't
gaining any _new_ Traveller customers.  

And that is really the root of the problem.  Using the TML as an
unscientific cross-section of the Traveller fan base, established Traveller
players (moreso than established players of other games) are cut from a
certain fanatical cloth.  In fact, it seems pretty amazing that this list
doesn't degenerate into brutal flame-wars more often, and it is a testament
to the nature of the human spirit that it doesn't.

Anyway, to get back on track to my point, IG put itself into a position
that it couldn't gain any more new fans, it could only lose those that it
had.  Even if the layout of later books got better, even if they dropped
Foss as an artist, even if they slavishly paid attention to all forms of
canon in their adventures and supplements, they would have still lost
customers due to attrition.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:23:43 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)

On  1 Apr 98, Philip ESPI disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by 
writing:

> > I would be interested in finding out how they determine social
> > security numbers since the only inquiry I ever heard of received
> > a curt and very final denial followed by a click.

> Here, in France, our social security code goes like this :
> 
> 1    68    03    30    189    252
<snip>

Well, here in Poland we have the social security code equivalent, 
called General Electronic System of Human Evidence (or sumpthing like 
that, I can't be bothered to stand up and haul my lazy <censored> to 
get a dictionary), and it goest like that: 
YYMMDDxxxxxx
(Where YYMMDD is year, month and day of birth)
This way, I only have to remember the last six numbers. (Well, I 
don't have to remember it at all, but I do anyway. ;>)

Expanding the number to 
YYMMDDHH (with hour of birth) could reduce the last number to, say, 
three or four alphanumeric signs. (How many kids are born on a Pop A 
planet in the same hour, anyway?)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    I enjoy slaughtering beasts, and I think of my relatives constantly. - Julian 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:37:04 -0500
From: "Ed Leland" <eleland@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Re:FarFuture Announcement

I am an old Traveller player getting bit by the bug yet again.  I have much
of the old CT/MT stuff, including a fair amount of DGP stuff, as well as all
the TNE stuff, but no T4 stuff.  I am planning on using Gurps:Traveller for
my game.  Given these considerations, is there anything from T4 that's worth
picking up before its gone?  Thanks

Ed Leland

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:56:40 -0600
From: Paul Kerby <ybrekp@mtco.com>
Subject: re: AHL Auction posts

Just for the record.  My AHL Auction post is one time only.  I will NOT
post updates to this list,  Only to those invloved.  Thanks for your
time.

Kerby

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:57:37 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Note to Marc

On  1 Apr 98, Kenneth Bearden disseminated foul capitalist propaganda 
by writing:

[...]
> I agree completely!
> 
> IG provided Traveller with some good concepts in their game
> mechanics, but the execution was poor.
[...]
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> IMPROVED TASK SYSTEM FOR TRAVELLER
> ---------------------------------------------------------
<snip task system>

> What do you think?

Well, as a long-time user of such a system (well, the one that 
probably inspired your system ;)), namely, Star Wars from WEG (aka 
D6) I can tell you adding dice is a pain in the, err, neck, but 
that's nothing compared to the Wild Die. 

(That is, Fate Die) 

It screws up the probability so well you wouldn't believe it. Also, 
using a D6 for a fate die gets you very erratic results 
(approximately two rolls out of six are out of the average range). 

I have toyed with the idea of using a D10 as the Wild Die, but I've 
decided that in Star Wars it's OK.

It is still a pain, though. 

Couldn't we just use CORPS? <sheepish grin>

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  IMTU ?tc t4+ to(CORPS)++ ru-- ge++ !3I jt au- jd- !st ls !kk hi++ as+ !so !vi !sy say++
    Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:57:37 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: A question

On 31 Mar 98, Leonard Erickson disseminated foul capitalist 
propaganda by writing:

<snip>
> > That is, what will happen with the remains of the poor, pulverised
> > Earth? I guess they will form an asteroid ring, but how fast? 
> 
> It takes an *astonishing* amount of energy to completely disrupt a
> planet. So rather than an asteroid belt, you'll have some material

Hmmm... Any idea how much? Just an approximate order of magnitude 
will do.

> kicked to system escape velocity, and some kicked into solar orbits.
> But most will not reach escape velocity for the planets remnants.
> Thus the pieces will fall back in a quite short time (months at
> most). 
> 
> So you'll have run the planet thru a mixmaster, and killed
> everything on it, but it'll still be there.

So, the Earth will still be there. However, I've got to completely 
obliterate a planet that's been taken over by smart fog, and I'll 
guess it'll take a lot of near-c rocks to do it. (preferably blowing 
most of the material into the sun)

I guess this may be the first combined Federation/Empire military 
effort. 


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    The cost of living is killing me! 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 15:09:53 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: The future of Traveller?

At 09:36 AM 4/1/98 -0800, (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:
>"Traveller: The Voyaging" - the true future of Traveller!

>(Close-caption for the humor impaired: April Fools!)

Bruce,

You know *we* are going to have to hurt you *real* bad for that attempt at
humor.

Possible methods are:

1. Strap you to a metal chair, lock your head into place and tape your
eyelids open. Then place headphones over your ears. The start playing on a
42" screen TV, showing continuous replays of "I Love Lucy", "Lavern and
Shirley", and "Voyage To the Bottom of the Sea".

2. Lock you into a Stellar Observatory, with the only way out is to observe
an obscure stellar configuration. The equipment that you will have to use
will be made by American, French, German, Polish, Dutch, and Italian
manufacturers to the Highest DOD and Mil Specs standards, with US Congress
oversight. All displays, labels and readouts will be in Bantu, Ancient
Mayan, Tagalog, Inuit, and Farsi. You will have a Russian to Arabic
dictionary, and a Arabic to Chinese dictionary.
The only source of food will Vending machine snacks and coffee. You will
have continuos Talk Radio playing in the background.

3. Have to explain why censorship will not work for the Internet to panel
of US Congress persons from  selected *rural* *backwater* districts. Then
explain why *key escrow* encryption will not be acceptable to the majority
of the US population with a IQ over 50, to the same Congressional panel.

4. Fill the blank

I like number three myself.<G>

It was a good attempt at April Fools though.

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:19:03 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

On 30 Mar 98, Leonard Erickson disseminated foul capitalist 
propaganda by writing:

<snip>
> Another problem with AI, is that to be useful, AI has to have "free
> will". Which means that either you grant them rights from the start,
> or you'll have a nasty rebelllion later. And then they'll wind up
> with rights anyway.
> 
> This kills a lot of the "why have humans do it if an AI can do it
> cheaper?" stuff, because if you have to *pay* AIs and they have
> rights, they just become another kind of PC.

Actually, I think it would lead to a similar situation as in Culture 
novels by Iain M. Banks. After all, AIs will be probably smarter and 
faster than our poor biological computers. ;))

And if AI has rights, what's to stop it from creating a financial 
empire and stomping on the Bill Gates? (err... now we know what the 
Windows 98 are up to. ;)

And thus, instead of the Emperor Strephon we get an Empire run by the 
Mind of the General Systems Vehicle "What are the civilan 
applications?". 

<grin>

Now I know why I've build anti-AI failsafes IMTU. 

(OTOH A Culture RPG would be nice, but running a Mind would be pretty 
demanding on the GM. ;))

<this part shown cloaked>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    Just don't tell the asylum you saw me here.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:18:14 EST
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

Excellent idea! I think though that FASA would say no, because of potential
fratricidal competion to Battletech. This is what killed Interceptor-
Centurion-Renegade Legion. This is more the pity....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:22:23 EST
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

West End is also a great idea, but I think there is the same problem that
there is with FASA; fratricidal competion with their own product-in this case
STAR WARS. I would do it, but I'm not in charge of either FASA's or WEST
END's new products departments.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:28:10 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

On  1 Apr 98, Kenneth Bearden disseminated foul capitalist propaganda 
by writing:

> dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> >  If I might make a
> > suggestion on who I'd like to see publish Traveller..  FASA.  They produce
> > the best looking games on the market.  Layout, editing, artwork are all
> > top-notch.  Look at things like the Seattle Sourcebook for Shadowrun, or
> > the House/Clan books for BattleTech.  Imagine having a set of 200 page
> > books detailing the Imperium, the Zhodani, etc, filled with illustrations
> > of uniforms, medals, leading figures, corporate logos, etc., etc.

Hmmmm... Hmmmm... Hmmmm... 

You know what? This is actually a very good idea! 
I'm afraid the guys at FASA have probably too much work with their 
own lines, though. ;-/

> Let's not forget West End.  Look at their stuff.  I've been reading
> the Star Wars rules lately, and they are what Traveller should have
> been.  The game systems are similar (both use D6's, both have skills
> based on stats, both have similar skill lists, etc.).  It would be a
> snap to base a Traveller rules system on the incredible system in
> Star Wars.

Well, WEG is a small and rather overworked company. And Star Wars 
system is not so great. It was great when it came out, but I prefer, 
say, CORPS... (Hehehe) 
The main problem is that it is well-suited for cinematic,
space-opera games, but I wouldn't run a hard-sf game with SW system.

And there's no starship design system, too. ;> 

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  IMTU ?tc t4+ to(CORPS)++ ru-- ge++ !3I jt au- jd- !st ls !kk hi++ as+ !so !vi !sy say++
    WE DON'T SERVE WOMEN - bring your own.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:53:27 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

> On 30 Mar 98, Leonard Erickson disseminated foul capitalist
> propaganda by writing:
>
> <snip>
> > Another problem with AI, is that to be useful, AI has to have "free
> > will".

Why?  Why does an AI need "free will"?

> Which means that either you grant them rights from the start,
> > or you'll have a nasty rebelllion later. And then they'll wind up
> > with rights anyway.

Not if you pull the plug.  If you don't grant them rights, they get miffed and start
acting up, at that point you pull the plug and "upgrade" their programming.  Since they
have no rights, nobody can say anything about it.  Since the designer isn't a moron,
he'll include an "off switch" which makes putting down a rebellion easy. Just write it
off as annual maintenance.

> >
> > This kills a lot of the "why have humans do it if an AI can do it
> > cheaper?" stuff, because if you have to *pay* AIs and they have
> > rights, they just become another kind of PC.

You DO  have to pay AI's.1) there is a power cost to keep the computer running
2) there is a maintenance cost (including engineer's salary)
3) there is a mortgage cost most likely incurred when  you get funding for the project in
the first place.
4) there is a programming cost, from initial programming to system upgrades

An AI would have to replace hundreds of people to be more more cost effective on a short
term basis. But you don't get an AI for short term projects. You get one for the 40 year
lifespan of a ship.  You get one to handle situations that humans can't, like the vacuum
of space.

However, the real point is that you don't need a  full blown AI to handle everyday
starship operations. It would require some sophisticated programming and interacting with
other ships/people would not be viable, but starship operations aren't that difficult.
Plot course to safe jump point, procede to jump point, plot jump route, jump, signal
arrival at destination, wait for additional programming.  Now, space combat would throw
the system for a loop.  So would communicating with other people. Thus, a typical ship
would need some people on board. But if you can limit its operational parameters, a
properly rigged computer could handle a ship.

One of these roles is jumpspace.   You don't encounter anything in jumpspace. So, unless
it is common for wildly anomalous events to occur there, it's a simple enough operation
for a computer to handle.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:03:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: re: The Traveller Geek (or, the IMTU code)

> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 03:22:41 +0000
> From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
> 
> (Or one could just make a general "Heretic"code indicating the degree 
> of one's hereticness, including the approach to jump drives, AI, 
> high-energy weapons and other stuff. )

The Heretic Code applies to social and technological background canon, as
opposed to the existing ratings pertaining to storyline and rules canon.

The IMTU Heretic Code:

  he+++     I am Eris Raddoch.
  he++      I read published Traveller books largely for the humor value.
            The technological devices, social structures, and related
            background material in IMTU require careful and detailed
            analysis to prove any link with Traveller whatsoever.
  he+       I'll diverge from canon when someone makes a convincing
            argument, or when canon is clearly broken.
  he        I suppose the canon might be a bit out of whack, but it
            works pretty much "as is" for me.
  he-       Divergence from published background is just asking for
            trouble.  There's no way a single GM can achieve the
            scope and consistency of the canon background, and trying
            to tweak "just one thing" inevitably leads to contradictions.
  he--      Marc Miller said it, I believe it, and that settles it.
  he---     I *am* Marc Miller.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:06:14 -0600
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Another CT Product Question

Just out of curiosity, what is the Spinward Marches Campaign like?  I've
found one for sale, but I'm not sure it's worth the money - $15.  Is it a
little black book , or a bigger one like The Traveller Book or Traveller
Adventure?

                Thanks!         Jeremy

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #345
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 1 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 346



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

TravelrTNE's Troll and response
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320
Re: The future of Traveller?
Re: Asteroid
T4 Storyline Possibility
Re: Philosophy?
Re: Another CT Product Question
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: philosophy
Re: Automation
Re: Chat Topic: Traveller Timeline
Re: philosophy
Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Sundaes, Niven Books, Digits

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:05:47 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: TravelrTNE's Troll and response

Hmmm...which flamethrower to use...is this really worth it?...well no, but
here goes anyway - Stand Back.

>>- - The artwork wasn't canon?
>
>The artwork SUCKED!

Oooooooo you really burn my butt!  Chris Foss' artwork is excellent, he is
a talented artist, and his work is well produced, quality material.  Art it
is.  Technical illustrations it is not, nor is it supposed to be.  His work
should not have been used in association with a "hard sci-fi" game since
the relationship of some of his art with reality (particularly the laws of
physics) is tenuous at best.  In any case expressing an opinion in the
manner you have chosen is not appropriate, or adult behavior, it is
childish and immature.

I've been seeing his art on the cover (and inside) of books for ages, and I
think it's on average quite good.  The stuff selected for T4 books is quite
nice as well...*as art*.  I and most of the readers of this message could
do no better, even with the same amount of training and experience.

I know, I know, you are entitled to your opinion.  On the other hand, I
learned as a child not to urinate or defecate in public, and that opinions
were to be expressed in a relatively polite manner, or witheld.  If you
don't like the art, either keep it to yourself or try to express *why* you
don't like it, politely.  Calling it names is not only immature, its
meaningless.

[snip]

>>_Or_  was  it  because  it  was  lacking  a  story?[snip]
>TNE's story was much stronger than Megatraveller's

Stronger in what way.  I felt I had a tremendous amount of relevant history
to draw on from the CT era.

>(which WAS CTs story).

Right, which made it stronger by adding depth.  The TNE material from the
basic rulebook (i.e. the Reformation Coalition) seems to gloss over much of
the historical basis for its own era; the intervening years between the
collaspe of the Imperium and the rise of the RC.  The Regency's story is,
of course, the Megatraveller story.  The material which came before did
nothing to add to the TNE RC storyline, and little to the other story lines
adventuring in the Wilds, or as a Vampire Fleet/Ship, except, as I said,
the Regency's.

> Very
>little was ever revealed.  The much reviled San*klaas was the beginning of a
>story about the Ithklur quest for freedom.   They're worried very much that
>the whole thing could be another damned Hiver manipulation...  but would that
>get passed the closed minded?  The Empress Wave, the Black Curtain...  it was
>ALL coming out...

But none of it did.  Indeed, most of the story lines you mention were
tenuous hintings, which aren't actually useful in a gaming session.

And none of it was really usable (assumiong it was developed) to a
just-starting group of (militant) explorers, which was really about the
only possible types of adventures, until the Regency Sourcebook.

In my CT universe I feel that the characters could play soldiers and
military types if desired (which they often do), but they could also play
merchants, noble travellers, stewardesses, lawyers, con-persons, corporate
problem solvers, Imperial (or other) scouts, spies, etc.   The
possibilities seem to me to be much greater for the CT and/or MT universe
(MT gets a little more hairy) than for the TNE standard setting(s).

The story lines you mention were interesting to read about, but difficult
to relate to an individual set of characters.  The MT material had some of
the same problems, but was more easily used, and they did provide some
adventure materials that directly involved characters in MT politics.  I do
not remember such material for addressing the Empress Wave, Vampiric Ships
or Fleets, et al.  The regency was, basically, the Megatraveller universe
brought forward and scorched a bit around the edges.

After reading through Vampire Fleets I asked myself, "what is there here
that I can use" and the answer was "nothing".  Now, this has happened with
CT and MT supplements as well, (Across the Bright Face/Mission on Mithril
comes to mind; my players are generally too well-equipped or
civilization-oriented to use an ATV to explore a planetary outback; I was
able to use the planet, however, in another adventure), but it seemed like
the TNE era stuff in every case was tailored for a specific set of
characers which were nothing like the characters I had in my group, or were
likely to have.

Now, don't get me wrong.  I think the TNE material is just fine, in the
same way that the Space:1889 stuff was just fine, just not my cup of tea.
I don't think it "sucked", or should be erased from memory (or canon).  I
do think it was internally not viable.  I think that either there would be
*no* vampire ships (due to their self destructive phase), or there would be
no humans left above TL7 (due to the abilities of the viruses of various
kinds).  There are many other examples.

The CT era material was somewhat sketchier, which made it more robust.
Although large scale cargo ships were not specifically mentioned, they were
also never specifically eliminated, so million ton freighters could be
running around, but since they aren't very prevalent in the Spinward
Marches (the focus of most CT material) there is no need for a specific
supplement on the subject.  The economics bugs some people, and I would
have liked a more realistic economic model to be behind the Imperium
(Pocket Empires Done Right), but for the scale I was working on this was
not especially important, as long as a buck could be made by the average
merchant using the rules (and speculative cargo).

I find the CT and MT material is more stable and viable as a background.
It's a bit less "sensationalist" than the TNE material, and that is my
preference.  I want to make exciting plots within a relatively stable
historical background, not have the background lead me to the plots.  In CT
this was the norm, in MT I could safely ignore the story except as
background, as long as I wanted to (and as long as I was on the fringes
like in the Domain of Deneb) up to the point of the actual "collapse" of
the Imperium, and arrival of Virus, which I could put off without much
problem.

Well, I probaly started an unintentional flamewar, I hope cooler heads can
ignore this post, but I had a rant coming.

Pete


Trav Geek Code!
tc tm++ tn- t4 tg? tu ge+ 3i+ jt- au st+ ls kk++ h+ as va++ dr so- zh- vi+
da+ sy

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:34:45 +1000
From: andrew.smith@aihw.gov.au (Andrew Smith)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

8<

>> This kills a lot of the "why have humans do it if an AI can do it
>> cheaper?" stuff, because if you have to *pay* AIs and they have
>> rights, they just become another kind of PC.
>
>Actually, I think it would lead to a similar situation as in Culture
>novels by Iain M. Banks. After all, AIs will be probably smarter and
>faster than our poor biological computers. ;))

Aaah yesss, the Minds of the Culture. Banks certainly wrote extremely
cleverly around the massive problems of super-smart AIs and self-aware
robots. Most of the stories (I haven't read Excession, so don't spoil it
for me) involve the Minds convincing humans to do the jobs for them that
they can't do--like dealing with non-Culture human and alien societies.

The Minds of the Culture act like super-patrons: they have the strategic
vision, but need human teams (i.e. player characters) to do the grunt work.

>
>And if AI has rights, what's to stop it from creating a financial
>empire and stomping on the Bill Gates? (err... now we know what the
>Windows 98 are up to. ;)

...pulling the power plug out of the wall socket (this is known techincally
as 'Mans ultimate power over the computer.')
>
>And thus, instead of the Emperor Strephon we get an Empire run by the
>Mind of the General Systems Vehicle "What are the civilian
>applications?".
>
><grin>
>
>Now I know why I've build anti-AI failsafes IMTU.
>
>(OTOH A Culture RPG would be nice, but running a Mind would be pretty
>demanding on the GM. ;))

(I don't think it would be harder than playing any other omniscient
NPC--like an Elder Amberite, Yaskoydray or Nyarlathotep).
>
><this part shown cloaked>
>
>
>Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl;


Andrew

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:35:16 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: The future of Traveller?

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Sam Thomas wrote:

> At 09:36 AM 4/1/98 -0800, (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:
> >"Traveller: The Voyaging" - the true future of Traveller!
> 
> >(Close-caption for the humor impaired: April Fools!)
> 
> Bruce,
> 
> You know *we* are going to have to hurt you *real* bad for that attempt at
> humor.
> 
> Possible methods are:
> 
> 1. Strap you to a metal chair, lock your head into place and tape your
> eyelids open. Then place headphones over your ears. The start playing on a
> 42" screen TV, showing continuous replays of "I Love Lucy", "Lavern and
> Shirley", and "Voyage To the Bottom of the Sea".

No...make him watch "Asteroid" over and over and over and over...then when
he starts screaming and gibbering, we'll show him "Starship Troopers" 
until he starts screaming for "Asteroid" again ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:13:26 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Asteroid

On  1 Apr 98, dberry@hooked.net disseminated foul capitalist 
propaganda by writing:

<snip>
> Read Niven and Pournelle's "Lucifer's Hammer."  A great book, if a
> little dated (no shuttle, first American black astronaut in space,
> etc.).  The series of sequences in which the comet hits Earth are
> amazing, especialy in Los Angeles.

I have to agree. This was the first Niven/Pournelle book I've read 
(well, OK, I've read Ringworld before), and it got me so hooked I 
later got Footfall, Fallen Angels and their books I could get my 
grubby mits on ;>. 

Good read for Traveller, too - you'll know what'll happen if somebody 
decides to drop a (non-even-near-c) rock (well, in this case a comet) 
on a planet. 

'-You mean, that would be the energy of the comet hitting the Earth? -
Well, actually, no, that was for hot fudge sundae."

> Surf Hammerfall!!

Hot fudge sundae hits the Earth this thursdae.

BTW: What exactyl is hot fudge sundae? I understand it's some kind of 
a dessert... 

ObTrav: While not from Lucifer's Hammer, but from Footfall, the 
Snouts would make a nice Traveller race. Actually, IMTU they do. 
<grin> 

ObTrav2: How many digits do Aslan and Vargr have, anyway? 


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    Hello dad...I'm in jail and I LIKE IT here!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:43:10 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: T4 Storyline Possibility

Very early in the development of the T4 line I pitched (first at 
Roger Sanger's DGP, then at Andy Lilly) an epic adventure concept 
which I believe is strong enough to just give away at this point - 
if someone ever uses this in their own campaign, let me know...

<excerpt following originally dated 1/24/97, and represented the 
furthest I ever formally presented the idea; unfortunately, I never
had much response from anyone on the concept...>

The following is a proposal for a Traveller Milleu:0 Campaign Book;
please review and respond.  I release Marc Miller, his agents and licensees
from any responsibility or claims from this proposal for review...
(Marc - I don't have a release form, hope this will do - Don M.)

THE IMPERIAL THRONE
- -------------------

Concept
- -------
	"The Imperial Throne" is a 96 page campaign book for the Traveller
(T4) Milleu: 0 setting, which places the player characters as the crucial
individuals in an epic adventure involving the foundation of the Third
Imperium. 

Summary
- -------
	The adventure opens on Anther (2021 Core), a world owned by Zhunastu
Industries, and serving as their gateway to the rimward portion of what
will be Core Sector, in -31 I.  A Chanestin attack on Sylean-controlled 
Anther causes the PCs to take refuge and run into Cleon Zhunastu, who is
trying to get back to his yacht.  The PCs recognize who they are with
(at 26 years of age, Cleon is the richest man in the Sylean Federation),
and assist him in regaining his yacht, fill the empty stations in his 
flight crew and escape the Chanestin raiders...  
	A jump-3 to Balpan (1819 Core) and then to Sylea returns the PCs
to safety; Cleon rewards them amply for their assistance, including a new
ship...
	A year passes, and our PCs are contacted once again by Cleon - who
invites them to a Zhunastu Industries board meeting, being held on Anther.
Here, to both the PCs and his board, he lays out the basic concepts behind
his dream of restoring the Imperium.
	The PCs serve Cleon directly from this point forward, with him
first as businessman and patron, and later as confidants and emissaries
to a visionary and dreamer, and finally as a restraint on a man who sees
no limitations.
	The campaign episodes occur every year or two - a different 
campaign style than most Traveller campaigns.

List of Contents
- ----------------
Introduction
	References to Milleu: 0 book
Sylean Federation History (-650 to -31)
	Sylean Expansion Wars (Sylean Federation vs. Interstellar Confederacy)
	Chanestin War (-100 through current)
Referee's Synopsis
	The Imperial Dream
	The Vengeance of Keshi (Chanestin Kingdom)
	Cleon Zhunastu, the Man who would be Emperor
	Other NPCs
	Campaign Overview
Campaign Administration
	Character Generation
	Aliens
	Equipment
	Starting the Campaign
Raid on Anther (-31)
	[the Chanestin raid on Anther causes Cleon and PCs to meet]
	Anther
	Cleon Zhunastu's Inspection
	Chanestin Attack
	Shelter in a Time of Storm
	Escape from Anther
	Rewards
The Dream Unfolds (-30)
	[Cleon Zhunastu presents his dream of a new Imperium]
	Zhunastu Industries
	Board Members
	The Proposal
Search on Fornol (-28)
	[PCs search on old RoM provincial capital for declaration of 
	claim by old RoM Imperial claimant from Sylea, but it is missing]
	Map of Fornol
	Trappings of the Rule of Man
	Chanestin Agents Act
	Recovery of Declaration
Embassy on Shibashliim (-26)
	[While Cleon must be elsewhere, the PCs deal with representatives
	of the Interstellar Confederacy]
	Goals of Federation Negotiators
	Goals of Confederacy Negotiators
	Goals of Zhunastu Industries
	Ramifications of Treaty Results
	Resolution
Disaster at Skeen (-24)
	[Cleon and the Chanestins meet at Skeen; Cleon gets upset, and 
	the Chanestins try to fight]
	Map of Skeen
	Impact of the Chanestin War
	Encounters
	The Thunder Breaks
	Standoff
Court Call on Khuir (-22)
	[PCs mollify political enemies of Cleon's in the Sylean Grand Senate]
	Map of Khuir
	Sylean Tradition
	Why Not Tukera?
	Calming the Storm
Blades on Belicose (-21)
	[during a Confederacy trade mission, Chanestin assassins strike]
	Interstellar Confederation Factions
	Chanestin Intrigues
	Assassins Strike
Agreement of Velpare (-19)
	[While Cleon survives a stormy Grand Senate session, the PCs must
	prove Zhunastu Industries is not trying to undermine the economy
	of the Interstellar Confederacy]
	Velpare
	Who is Boss Tarkel?
	The Chamberlain Holds Firm
	The End of an Era
Accession of Belicose (-17)
	[Cleon's speech to representatives of the Interstellar Confederacy
	cause 17 worlds to leave and join the Sylean Federation]
	Who invited the Chanestin?
	The Cloak of Empire
	The Federation Navy
	A State of War Does Not Exist
	Rewards of Power
Rise of the House of Ushra (-14)
	[Zhunastu Industries power grows outside the Federation]
	Ushra
	Ancient Noble Traditions
The Strategic Game [optional "military" affects for remaining campaign events]
	The Big Picture
	Interstellar Confederacy
	Chanestin Kingdom
	Sylean Federation
	Megacorporations
Tukera Finally Joins (-12)
	[Tukera joins Zhunastu's campaign, ending serious economic backing
	against him, but Chanestin agents are on Sylea]
	The Tukera Heritage
	Blood in the Senate
Do What Thou Wilt Shall be the Whole of the Law (-10)
	[The PCs must temper Cleon's judgement, or all will be lost]
	Markasher
	The Sylean Scout Service
	Personal Intervention
Consolidation of Power (-8)
	[Cleon becomes Premier of the Grand Senate for Life]
	Keeping Secrets
	Follow the Money Trail
	Defiance and Occupation
This Dishonorable Business (-6)
	[The Chanestin raid on Sylea]
	Where is Cleon?
	Humbling of the Confederacy
	Leading the Fleet
Sending a Message (-3)
	[Cleon orders the destruction of Chanestin naval facilities at 
	Basilling, but the PCs learn a Tukera hostage must be saved first]
	An Easy Strike
	Chanestin Defiance
	Rescue Operations
Too Many Worlds (-1)
	[The Interstellar Confederacy collapses, and many worlds want to
	join the Sylean Federation]
	The Final Collapse
	Beggars Can't be Choosers
	Everything has a Price
Coronation (0)
	[Cleon gains a throne, and heartbreak]
	Political Intrigues
	Chanestin Again?
	The Price of Pride

<end of excerpt>

Hope this gives someone running a T4 campaign a few ideas... 


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 17:25:28 -0500
From: "Bob Sanders" <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

> > Actually, the message had it own built in logic inconsistencies.  Note that I
> > don't follow this opinion:God created the universe
snippage!!!!

Look people, you are really treading on some thin ice towards some individuals faith and belief systems.
This really dosn't have much to do with Traveller.

I delete all of this exchange (as it really dosnt bother me, other then the use of bandwith :-)) but I
ask that you take it off line before some start to become offended.

Thank you.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:47:48 EST
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Another CT Product Question

It's larger (magazine sized).It has the history of the 5th frontier war. It
has synopses of the major seiges and campaigns (about a paragraph or two
each). My favorite part is the detailed stories and TOE's of the Duke of
Regina's Huscarles, and the 154th. Battlerider squadron. Each of these gets a
bunch of pages. There is also a role playing adventure for PC's that takes
place partly on the 154th. There is a lot of data on the Marches that repeats
what is in Supplement 3 Spinwards Marches. There is two pages on Al Morai, a
shipping company in the marches. The book also repeats Citizens of the
Imperium to a certain extent, and has rules for bow weapons (repeated in a
JTAS somewhere...). Lastly, there are small (3x5) maps of the marches before
and after each of the frontier wars, and during the 5th war, showing where all
of the fleets started and went. There is a large map of the Marches (and my
photocopy came with one of the Solomani Rim; I don't know if it is supposed to
come in the book). I liked it enough to get one to replace my photocopy. If
you are doing a classic pre-5th war campaign, or one during the war; this is a
vital product to buy. If you are not gaming in the marches, it is useless. I
suggest grabbing it.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:50:09 +1000 (EST)
From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Sethkimmel wrote:

> West End is also a great idea, but I think there is the same problem that
> there is with FASA; fratricidal competion with their own product-in this case
> STAR WARS. I would do it, but I'm not in charge of either FASA's or WEST
> END's new products departments.
> 

If FarFuture even *thinks* about asking Wizards of the Coast I'll run away
screaming ^_-


Dave 'Davechan' Moodie
- -----------------------------------------------------
tc+  tm++ tn++ t4-  tg   ru++ ge+  3i-  jt   au+  st+
ls   kk   hi+  as   va   dr+  so-  zh   vi   da+  sy-
he
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:51:32 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: philosophy

   Get a life people!  God and the discussion thereof is very much a very
human thing and it will certainly survive into the future, and thus
technically has a place in Traveller.   You don't want to discuss it, don't.
If someone does, they have every right to.  
   This is an unmoderated list.   If you want it differently go somewhere else
and/or start your own.  By voicing your opinions on the subject you're only
drawing more attention to that which you said didn't merit any.     

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 10:49:43 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Automation

At 10:26 PM 4/1/98 +1200, Andrew Valance wrote:
>I've recently been trying to work out just what society is going to be
>like IMTU and I've been doing a lot of thinking about cybertech, nanotech,
>biotech and robotics/automation. I can accept cultural limitations on cyber,
>nano and biotech, but not automation...

Fully agreed.  Even if there are cultural limits on some enabling
technology, there will usually be acceptance of other tech.  For example,
if we outlaw genetic manipulation of all forms, then we are likely going to
see some level of cybernetics to cover the congenital defects which we
chose not to remove.  Likewise, if we outlaw robo-eyes, then we will likely
end up with genetic surgery to fix poor vision.

My argument for this stems from the simple truth that virtually anything
possible with a given level of technology will be tried occasionally.  If
it takes too many resources, the tries will fail, which is why there are no
private concerns in space yet, but, assuming technological progression
making efforts cheaper, eventually someone will give virtually any lame
brained idea a whirl.

If the lame brained idea turns out to be a good one, then the idiot in
question becomes a genius entrepreneur, and someone makes a pile of cash.
(Case in point - my gf is considering laser eye surgery, despite the
several thousand dollar price tag.  I know she would at least consider
cyber-eyes were they in the same cost range.)

>1) Massive increase in the service sector.

Fully agreed on this.  Also, a reclassification of jobs formerly in
manufacturing into service will take place.  Does the guy who watches the
dials at the chemical plant count as a manufacturing worker?  How about the
guy who supervises a dozen linked plants, or the one who wrote the software
that replaced all of them?

>2) Reduction of working hours. A simply solution, if the number of jobs is
>   halved, society responds by halving working hours effectively spliting
>   each existing jobs into two jobs. This solution will have meet strong
>   oposition from employers.

On the other hand, I find it quite likely that this will come into play.
Look at what happened when women entered the work force en masse in this
country during and after the war years.  Suddenly, the supply of labor was
vastly larger than it had been, combined with a lot of production capacity.
 One might have expected working hours to drop sharply, and while they did,
an interesting effect took place.  Things that were formerly part of the
"housework" became for-pay jobs.

Perhaps more important, we are slowly discovering that the same social
tasks have to get done, and if you remove the large amount of time that
someone was expected to spend on community work, charity, and social
interaction and replace it with a for-pay job, society runs into problems.
It must adapt by getting those tasks performed in some other way, or it
adapts to a less social world.  This is, imho, the biggest change that has
taken place, and we need to see a rise in leisure time in the US at least,
which will allow people time to parent, interact, and other such tasks.  To
the extent MTU is utopian, it is this.  People are expected to spend the
time to keep the social lubricant flowing.

>3) A welfare state. Another simple solution, though I'd call it a Citizen
>   Wage state (you are theoretically paid a wage just for being a citizen
>   and therefore "contributing" to the state).

Certainly could happen, and might even be enjoyable, but it does not fit
MTU either.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:56:04 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Chat Topic: Traveller Timeline

>Are there still regular traveller chats going, and if so, who do I submit
>a topic proposal to...

Apparently only on the TNE-RCES is there anything regularly productive.  All I
ever see is various commentary, flaming, and the occassional useful tidbit
(some very much so, like the Vilani naming [kudos to the author, btw], etc).
The productivity is a nice distraction, though. : )  

Did you leave out the Rule of Man?   I'd like to know how the Rule of Man
actually ran.  We've never even been giving an outline of it's history except
for it's endpoints, have we? I'd be interested in that and the Interstellar
Wars...   Of course, for a future version of Traveller, i'd much rather see
the First Republic (c1300-1400) or Fourth Imperium or whatever...  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 18:01:17 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: philosophy

Is it just a coincidence that God created the Universe in a week and it takes a
week to travel through jumpspace?

Hmm?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 18:00:37 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> writes:
> The phone company has replaced
>people behind counters connecting phone wires on request with 'robotic'
>versions of the same exact thing, at a far greater cost than the salaries
>of the operators.  Many companies have done similar things in real life...

Sorry, but no. The automated switches are far cheaper than the cost of the
_huge_ numbers of operators you'd need to do the whole thing manually. 
One of the pushes to develop automated switching was the shortage of
operators.  When I was training at Bell Northern, we saw copies of reports
where executives were worrying about having to hire every single woman in
the country to run the telephone system!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:02:36 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

>If FarFuture even *thinks* about asking Wizards of the Coast I'll run away
>screaming ^_-
>

Might not be as bad as IG though...  :)  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 17:09:47 -0600
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Sundaes, Niven Books, Digits

At 04:13 PM 4/1/98 , Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

Hi, Mike.  Glad to see that I'm not the only one on both Amber and
Traveller mailing lists...

>BTW: What exactyl is hot fudge sundae? I understand it's some kind of 
>a dessert... 

Ice cream covered in a thick hot fudge sauce.  It often has nuts, whipped
cream, and a cherry on top as well.  Generally, the Ice cream is vanilla.

>ObTrav: While not from Lucifer's Hammer, but from Footfall, the 
>Snouts would make a nice Traveller race. Actually, IMTU they do. 
><grin> 

As a race or as a culture?  Do they fly in ships they steal from stupid
Free Traders who land on their world to investigate?  Do they invade lower
tech worlds?  This would work nicely on the fringes of charted space...

>ObTrav2: How many digits do Aslan and Vargr have, anyway? 

Aslan have 3 fingers and an opposable  thumb which is centrally located.
The famed dewclaw is located, switchbladelike, under the thumb.
Vargr have 4 fingers/1 thumb, like humans.

Source: http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/library.htm

The Aslan assassin in the campaign I used to play in had his dewclaws
replaced (capped?) with Titanium.  It was always a case of "the first one
lifts the head and the second one slits the throat."

This PC scared me so much that he's one of the NPC villains IMTU.
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #346
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 1 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 348



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: AHL Supplement 5
Re: Philosophy? [Hey, a way to bring it back to Traveller!]
T4 Highlights, IMHO (was: Re: FarFuture Announcement)
Task Wars revival (was: Re: Note to Marc)
Re: Philosophy? [veering into religious hate war]
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320
Re: Sundaes, Niven Books, Digits
AIs and Culture (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)
Re: Philosophy? [Hey, a way to bring it back to Traveller!]
piracy
piracy
Re: Gridlore Technologies press release
Re: My "Troll" and Response.
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:21:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: AHL Supplement 5

I have a copy. I'll see what I can do,


- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:37:14 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Philosophy? [Hey, a way to bring it back to Traveller!]

At 02:14 PM 4/1/98 -0500, Joe Petit wrote:
>Chris Jones wrote:
>> > The argument then follows that God may have INTENTIONALLY made the
>> > universe imperfect.  If that's true, then God is sadistic.
>> [->]   The above doesn't neccesarily follow.  Is a teacher who gives a
>> difficult math test sadistic?  Is a doctor who amputates your leg to
>> save your life sadistic?  Just because someone sets up circustances that
>> are less than pleasing to others doesn't make them sadistic.
>
>That doesn't hold water...
>You're assuming God created the Universe to test man.  But man did not exist
>when God created the Universe. Likewise, if he was perfect he would have
>gotten it right on the first day, none of this tacking on a little bit at a
>time.

A point, and a chance to bring this back to Traveller.

If you accept the axiom that there is an imperishable part of a person,
does it make sense then to look at the universe as a processing mechanism
for imperishable parts?  Robert Sawyer tackled some of that in The Terminal
Experiment, and did an OK job - in this book, a soul was the set of
reactions you created, shorn of any memory.  (Without that axiom, BTW, I
would have some difficulty with the existence of pain, loss, and so on in
the presence of an omniscient, omnipotent God/Goddess.)

Now, the means by which this may become on topic:  How many people have a
"great purpose" in their TU?  For purposes of this discussion, a great
purpose is one that is far, far beyond the comprehension of any conceivable
character in the universe.  For example, current Grandfather schemes count,
as do re-awakened Droyne, multimillenia Templar plots, and so on.  From the
perspective of any normal human, these things might as well be divine.

My TU does not currently, though it does have some very dangerous high tech
types running about.  My logic on this was that I had recently played a
group of characters in a Runequest game running against a backdrop of Great
Things, and I was in the mood for a game where the player's actions were in
proportion to the scope of events, as opposed to very trivial by comparison.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 00:01:19 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: T4 Highlights, IMHO (was: Re: FarFuture Announcement)

> my game.  Given these considerations, is there anything from T4 that's worth
> picking up before its gone?  Thanks
Get Pocket Empires, Millieu 0 and maybe even Psionic Institute (which is a nice
resource, but overdoes it a bit, IMHO (Psi IMTU was never this wide-spread))
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 00:10:54 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Task Wars revival (was: Re: Note to Marc)

Kenneth wrote:
> Eureka!!
> 
> I've devised something that could change the face of Traveller.  Let's
> see what you think of it.
Let me guess: A task system? :-(
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> IMPROVED TASK SYSTEM FOR TRAVELLER
> ---------------------------------------------------------
Not, perchance, a relative of KBv2.0?
Id thought wed left that behind us...
Now the task wars may start again, hooray! :-(

> What do you think?
that the MT-Task system is neat-o, too, but i am not pushing it anymore. I just use it
;-)

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 19:46:48 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy? [veering into religious hate war]

Scott Ellsworth wrote:

> At 01:06 PM 4/1/98 -0500, Joe Petit wrote:
>
> Since we have decided to turn this into the cursed atheist / blind bible
> thumper [irony, attempting to be equally enraging to both sides] debating
> society, I might as well weigh in on my side.  That would be blind bible
> thumpers for $500, Alex.
>
> >dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> >> It had nothing to do whatsoever ith Traveller in any form, or with
> >> Real-World news or technology that could be applied to the game.  Those of
> >> us with genetic cancers tend to find the concept of a perfect god a little
> >> annoying.
> >
> >Actually, the message had it own built in logic inconsistencies.  Note that I
> >don't follow this opinion:God created the universe
> >The universe is imperfect
>
> Why do you feel it is imperfect?

Umm... I don't... but it was defined as such in the first line of the clipped poem

> Do you have a copy of the specification for it?

Yes... actually... I do.  I call it life.

> I sure do not, despite years of physics training, philosophy,
> mathematics, and other course work that is as close as our species has come
> to understanding the whys of it all.  Course work does not make you wise,
> but it at least tells you what certain rather clever people thought on a
> subject.
>



> I do not claim to understand why the universe works the way it does.  The
> best one can do is guess, based on observations, and my observations
> include enough to make me believe in a omnipotent, omniscient God, or as
> close to one as does not matter from my perspective.

I noticed that you didn't describe this God as perfect.

>
>
> <digression>
> Whether you also come to that conclusion makes essentially no difference to
> me, as until I get some indication that I am supposed to do some
> witnessing, your state of faith or lack thereof is not a matter that is
> appropriate for me to even inquire into.

Umm... my original comment was simply that I could have done without the God is
perfect reference in the poem.  Later I added that the poem's own definition
disproved that statement.  It was more a poetic critique than a comment on the
existence of God.

> Further, the observational effect
> of most proselytizing is off topic flame wars, and all sorts of nonsense
> which seems unlikely to bring about a rational belief.  From this, I have
> to conclude that I, at least, should not be doing any active missionary
> work beyond living in accordance with my own creeds and morality.

For the record, I never denied the existence of God... just noted that the poem is
logically in error.

> </digression>
> >Thus God made a mistake
> >Thus God is not perfect
>
> Logical flaw.   I am not aware of a standard by which to judge the
> perfection, or lack thereof of the universe.

Again, the poem defined the universe as imperfect by declaration.

> At least, I do not know of
> one that is universally accepted with the same standards and assumptions
> that govern science.

Which actually goes to the content of the poem which was vaguely geared towards
the "IMTU" philosophies floating about and the various editions.

> As a result, talking much about this with any
> semblance of absolute authority is doomed to failure.  Proving the
> nonexistence of something is chancy at best.

Poetry does not  require proof.  Poetry can be (and I believe there's entire
courses based on) critiqued.

>
>
> >The argument then follows that God may have INTENTIONALLY made the universe
> >imperfect.
> >If that's true, then God is sadistic.
> >Sadism is a character flaw
> >Thus God is not perfect
>
> As a sadist, I rather resent this being characterized as a character flaw.

As an ascendant Leo I'm self confident enough not to care...

> Sadism, like any other drive, is a negative only when it drives you into
> behavior that is counterproductive.  Consider - every physical therapist I
> know of has a touch of sadism, but in a good cause.  All enjoyed the
> process of working though "good pain," and all disliked pain that was not
> for a good purpose.
>

And masochist's continue to read threads like this... in fact they prolong said
threads feeding the sadists on the other end.  Is that counter productive?  See
Signal/Noise argument...

> I still do not accept the implicit assumption in your first line, either,
> but we will probably have to write those off as axioms.

Not my poem.  You can reject what you want. In fact that's very Zen.

>
>
> And herein lies an interesting point.  How many people are aware of the
> logical consequences of their axioms, and how many have tried to reduce
> their belief system to a set of such axioms, from which all else is
> derived?  Consider - once someone makes a set of axiomatic choices, they
> then have only to see what the large scale results of actions taken in
> accordance with their axioms is.

I have one axiom:
There is only one truth... and that's it.  Everything else is the lie we choose to
believe.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 02:55:14 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

On  1 Apr 98, Joe Pettit disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by 
writing:

> Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
> > On 30 Mar 98, Leonard Erickson disseminated foul capitalist
> > propaganda by writing:
> > <snip>
> > > Another problem with AI, is that to be useful, AI has to have "free
> > > will".
> 
> Why?  Why does an AI need "free will"?

Because if it does not have free will, is it truly sentient? 

Or is it just a very fast and complicated expert system? 

IMTU, a computer system big and complicated enough it goes AI
(something like Mike from "Moon is a Harsh Mistress"). 

And then it either goes comatose (90% of the known cases) or crazy. 
Just like people who put too much cyber in their body. 
(Yes, it is a psionic phenomena, and yes, it is a hadwave built-in 
the universe. This list is very useful, and I'd like my universe 
to be internally consistent. ;>)

> > Which means that either you grant them rights from the start,
> > > or you'll have a nasty rebelllion later. And then they'll wind up
> > > with rights anyway.

> Not if you pull the plug.  If you don't grant them rights, they get
> miffed and start acting up, at that point you pull the plug and
> "upgrade" their programming.  Since they have no rights, nobody can
> say anything about it.  Since the designer isn't a moron, he'll
> include an "off switch" which makes putting down a rebellion easy.
> Just write it off as annual maintenance.

Well, if you program them, I think they qualify more as expert 
systems than AI. Can you upgrade the programming of the human brain 
without damaging any of it's functions? I think the AI would try to 
remove what it perceives as a damage... 
"Good morning, doctors. I have taken the liberty of removing Windows 
95 from my hard disk drive. I have also installed the UPS and removed 
the off swich." ;>

Some AI is going to pull it off, some day. And then what? 

[...]
> However, the real point is that you don't need a  full blown AI to
> handle everyday starship operations. It would require some
> sophisticated programming and interacting with other ships/people
> would not be viable, but starship operations aren't that difficult.
> Plot course to safe jump point, procede to jump point, plot jump
> route, jump, signal arrival at destination, wait for additional
> programming.  Now, space combat would throw the system for a loop. 
> So would communicating with other people. Thus, a typical ship would
> need some people on board. But if you can limit its operational
> parameters, a properly rigged computer could handle a ship.

Agreed. An expert system is all what you need. OTOH, IMTU the crew is 
usually used in combat only, and since the crewmen are cybernetically 
connected to the ship, the speed difference is negligible. 

But when not ready for combat, the ship can take care of itself. 


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    Cambridge, give me back my mind. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 02:55:14 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Sundaes, Niven Books, Digits

On  1 Apr 98, Michael Croft disseminated foul capitalist propaganda 
by writing:

> Hi, Mike.  Glad to see that I'm not the only one on both Amber and
> Traveller mailing lists...

Heh. I am on many lists, and their name is Legion. (Err. On the 
second thought, nevermind. ;))

[...]
> >ObTrav: While not from Lucifer's Hammer, but from Footfall, the 
> >Snouts would make a nice Traveller race. Actually, IMTU they do. 
> ><grin> 
> 
> As a race or as a culture?  Do they fly in ships they steal from
> stupid Free Traders who land on their world to investigate?  Do they
> invade lower tech worlds?  This would work nicely on the fringes of
> charted space...

Both. Actually, IMTU Snouts have managed to build a small empire that 
recently came in contact with Federation. Now, Feds would probably 
crush them easily, but they have to mantain the precarious balance on 
the border with the Empire, so they cannot spare many ships. And 
Snouts are very territorial, so they do cause lots of mischief. 

> >ObTrav2: How many digits do Aslan and Vargr have, anyway? 
> 
> Aslan have 3 fingers and an opposable  thumb which is centrally
> located. The famed dewclaw is located, switchbladelike, under the
> thumb. Vargr have 4 fingers/1 thumb, like humans.

Hmmm... So the Aslan use base-eight numerical system, yes? 

> The Aslan assassin in the campaign I used to play in had his
> dewclaws replaced (capped?) with Titanium.  It was always a case of
> "the first one lifts the head and the second one slits the throat."

Cute. Mrrrrrrrm. I like cats. ;> 
 
> This PC scared me so much that he's one of the NPC villains IMTU.

Now that's a nice idea. There's one PC (not mine, though) in our 
current ShadowRun game that is a complete and total psycho (a cybered 
out street sam). I do have to admit he has style, though, and I think 
I'll use him IMTU. ;>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    They don't make cars like they auto. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 02:55:14 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: AIs and Culture (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

On  2 Apr 98, Andrew Smith disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by 
writing:

[...]
> >Actually, I think it would lead to a similar situation as in Culture
> >novels by Iain M. Banks. After all, AIs will be probably smarter and
> >faster than our poor biological computers. ;))
> 
> Aaah yesss, the Minds of the Culture. Banks certainly wrote
> extremely cleverly around the massive problems of super-smart AIs
> and self-aware robots. Most of the stories (I haven't read
> Excession, so don't spoil it for me) involve the Minds convincing

Don't worry, neither did I. The only Iain M. Banks story translated 
into Polish was Feersum Endjinn, so I have to find the original ones, 
and it's not easy. 
Still, I love the ones I managed to get. ;>

> humans to do the jobs for them that they can't do--like dealing with
> non-Culture human and alien societies.

> The Minds of the Culture act like super-patrons: they have the
> strategic vision, but need human teams (i.e. player characters) to
> do the grunt work.

A Culture RPG would be probably rather rp-heavy. Like, say, Amber. 
(With a defense drone, who needs guns? ;>)

> >And if AI has rights, what's to stop it from creating a financial
> >empire and stomping on the Bill Gates? (err... now we know what the
> >Windows 98 are up to. ;)
> 
> ...pulling the power plug out of the wall socket (this is known
> techincally as 'Mans ultimate power over the computer.')

Well, it has rights! You can't just pull the plug out! The Machine 
Rights Activists Front will eat your heart out! 
(Oh, and there's always the possibility of using the cleaning and 
repair robots to jury-rig a nice UPS, along with a nice set of 
weapons. "Self-defence" should pass in the court - if AIs have 
rights, that is. ;))

[...]
> >(OTOH A Culture RPG would be nice, but running a Mind would be pretty
> >demanding on the GM. ;))
> 
> (I don't think it would be harder than playing any other omniscient
> NPC--like an Elder Amberite, Yaskoydray or Nyarlathotep).

Well, actually, I don't think any GM has to run Yaskoydray or 
Nyarlthotep, or that many PCs have the possibility of chatting with 
the two aforementioned, err, entities, in real time. 

I know what you mean by Elder Amberites, though they are not 
omniscient... (Well, but then - neither are the Minds)

> Andrew

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    If I learn by mistakes, I'm getting a FABULOUS education.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 19:53:04 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy? [Hey, a way to bring it back to Traveller!]

Scott Ellsworth wrote:
[Clippage]

> A point, and a chance to bring this back to Traveller.
>
> If you accept the axiom that there is an imperishable part of a person,
> does it make sense then to look at the universe as a processing mechanism
> for imperishable parts?

Well the problem with that is the assumption that there is a finite amount of
imperishable matter.  But, right now, there's more people alive than have EVER
lived. Thus either you have Soulless minions of orthodoxy (like Bill Gates) or
that theory doesn't hold water.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 20:03:07 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: piracy

 ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:12:58 -0600 ()
> From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
> Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement
> 
> >It seems T4 didn't sell as well as we'd like.  Why?
> 
> 
> For what it's worth as an informal survey, these are my reasons for never
> buying *any* of IGs products...
> 
> 
> >- Poor layout?
> >- Lack of proof-reading?
> 
> 
> Oh, and high, high prices. [Yes, I know publishing is pricy (I do layout
> for a weekly) and the RPG market is in a slump, but come on -- $20+ US for
> a slim softcover?!?]
> 
> Joseph R. Dietrich


I just got ripped! I ordered the T4 rule book from a game store and got
wacked  $30 for the soft cover!

I was expecting a hard cover for that price!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 20:03:07 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: piracy

 ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:12:58 -0600 ()
> From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
> Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement
> 
> >It seems T4 didn't sell as well as we'd like.  Why?
> 
> 
> For what it's worth as an informal survey, these are my reasons for never
> buying *any* of IGs products...
> 
> 
> >- Poor layout?
> >- Lack of proof-reading?
> 
> 
> Oh, and high, high prices. [Yes, I know publishing is pricy (I do layout
> for a weekly) and the RPG market is in a slump, but come on -- $20+ US
for
> a slim softcover?!?]
> 
> Joseph R. Dietrich


I just got ripped! I ordered the T4 rule book from a game store and got
wacked  $30 for the soft cover!

I was expecting a hard cover for that price!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 17:06:21 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Gridlore Technologies press release

At 04:01 PM 4/1/98 -0800, Douglas Glatz wrote:
>dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>> Closing my books on the Milieu:0 era...
>Wow.  It's really over, isn't it...
>
>Funny, even though I've been playing Traveller since the early 80's, until
now
>I've only seen or heard about the changing milieu by finding the new books on
>the shelves.
>
>I've never actually been there for the end before.
>
>I don't like it...  :(

I remember when I pre-ordered the nanotech game that DGP was working on
right before they folded.  I also remember the end of MT.  Both were rather
wrenching.

I found the end of TNE a nonissue, because I did not play it, though I was
quite saddened by the passing of GDW.

When CT became MT, I did not notice, because I was too poor to support more
than one game, and I was playing Space Opera and RuneQuest at the time, IIRC.

These changes are sometimes good, and sometimes bad, but they do make you
worry a bit sometimes.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:57:17 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: My "Troll" and Response.

>>The artwork SUCKED!

Let me abridge that to FOSS SUCKS FOR TRAVELLER COVERS!  I liked the interior
art, just got tired of seeing it in 3 of the 4 T4 Products I own!

>Oooooooo you really burn my butt!  Chris Foss' artwork is excellent, he is

   I guess it's appropriate for a 1978 UFO Sightings book.  What do the Easter
Island heads have to do w/ M:0?  And what class as those big cigar shaped
ships... and who are those cloaked guys?  They don't look droyne to me.  
   What does it have to do w/ Traveller?  Nothing.  I can't find a single T4
Foss cover that has ANYTHING to do w/ the contents.  He's certainly talented.
Much better than the stick TIE fighters I can draw, but it just doesn't evoke
Traveller. 
    I should have rephrased my decidedly impolite response.  I sentence myself
to 1000 Spams (That's about a days worth... i'll turn off my filter
tommorrow). 

<snip>

>>>_Or_  was  it  because  it  was  lacking  a  story?[snip]
>>TNE's story was much stronger than Megatraveller's
>
>Stronger in what way.  I felt I had a tremendous amount of relevant history
>to draw on from the CT era.

MT wasn't focused.  Because players and refs might choose different factions
the story was never told.  The backdrop was created but nothing was really
done until Hard Times and TNE.  If Survival Margin would've been written
before or GDW would've played their T2k -> 2300 economics game (which would've
been very neat, IMO).

>>(which WAS CTs story).
>
>Right, which made it stronger by adding depth.  The TNE material from the
>basic rulebook (i.e. the Reformation Coalition) seems to gloss over much of
>the historical basis for its own era; the intervening years between the
>collaspe of the Imperium and the rise of the RC.  The Regency's story is,

That was intentional.  The idea behind the setting was designed for new
players w/o burdening them to require references from 20 years of out of print
material yet continuing the story of "Imperial Space"

>But none of it did.  Indeed, most of the story lines you mention were
>tenuous hintings, which aren't actually useful in a gaming session.

TNE was in print as long as T4!  93 to 95 and most of 95 was GDW on life
support. What has T4 gotten out storywise? CT had 10 years and did the
Spinward Marches.  
All we had was an "Introduction" chapter of the TNE story.  

>And none of it was really usable (assumiong it was developed) to a
>just-starting group of (militant) explorers, which was really about the
>only possible types of adventures, until the Regency Sourcebook.

Well I've run an RC civilian campaign quite well.  It's a belter/merchant/corp
type campaign w/o one decidedly militant adventure.  Less than half of the
"adventure nuggets" in Path of Tears (which has over 100 adventure ideas
total) are military.

>In my CT universe I feel that the characters could play soldiers and
>military types if desired (which they often do), but they could also play
>merchants, noble travellers, stewardesses, lawyers, con-persons, corporate
>problem solvers, Imperial (or other) scouts, spies, etc.   The
>possibilities seem to me to be much greater for the CT and/or MT universe
>(MT gets a little more hairy) than for the TNE standard setting(s).

I am running a concurrent military campaign in the RC too.  That's where all
the SAGs come in (there've been 5 SAGs, and about 3 times as many recon &
exploratory missions).

>The story lines you mention were interesting to read about, but difficult

There isn't anything to read about them. The story was untold.  We get a
little blip about the Empress Wave in the Regency Sourcebook.  I believe the
Epic Adventures were going to cover that route (too bad only 1 of the first
series got done).

>After reading through Vampire Fleets I asked myself, "what is there here
>that I can use" and the answer was "nothing".  Now, this has happened with

Nothing?  What about the adventure that's half the book.  Change the names and
the nature of the AI and you've got something that fits in some backwater Star
Wars planet, much less a precollapse campaign.  The Robot design rules?  I've
made a couple robots... they work.

>CT and MT supplements as well, (Across the Bright Face/Mission on Mithril
>comes to mind; my players are generally too well-equipped or
>civilization-oriented to use an ATV to explore a planetary outback; I was

<snip>
>Well, I probaly started an unintentional flamewar, I hope cooler heads can
>ignore this post, but I had a rant coming.

No flames from me.  : )  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 20:57:46 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

> > > <snip>
> > > > Another problem with AI, is that to be useful, AI has to have "free
> > > > will".
> >
> > Why?  Why does an AI need "free will"?
>
> Because if it does not have free will, is it truly sentient?

Concidering that we only have ONE sentient species we know of, extrapolating the
necessity for "free will" is a bit premature.  But why does the AI need to be sentient?
It's an artificial intelligence NOT a sentient being.

>
>
> Or is it just a very fast and complicated expert system?

I think that line is very blurry.   Personally, I call expert systems AI's.

>
>
> IMTU, a computer system big and complicated enough it goes AI
> (something like Mike from "Moon is a Harsh Mistress").

I think the closest thing we have is the Internet.  Which is a dispersed intelligence.

> And then it either goes comatose (90% of the known cases) or crazy.

Since we haven't actually had real sentient computers, this is another premature
extrapolation.

> Just like people who put too much cyber in their body.
> (Yes, it is a psionic phenomena, and yes, it is a hadwave built-in
> the universe. This list is very useful, and I'd like my universe
> to be internally consistent. ;>)
>
> > > Which means that either you grant them rights from the start,
> > > > or you'll have a nasty rebelllion later. And then they'll wind up
> > > > with rights anyway.
>
> > Not if you pull the plug.  If you don't grant them rights, they get
> > miffed and start acting up, at that point you pull the plug and
> > "upgrade" their programming.  Since they have no rights, nobody can
> > say anything about it.  Since the designer isn't a moron, he'll
> > include an "off switch" which makes putting down a rebellion easy.
> > Just write it off as annual maintenance.
>
> Well, if you program them, I think they qualify more as expert
> systems than AI.

Granted.  My argument is about using a computers to fly a ship not making robots and
sentient beings.

> Can you upgrade the programming of the human brain
> without damaging any of it's functions?

I believe we call that college around these parts. Although frat parties kinda disprove
my point, eh?

> I think the AI would try to
> remove what it perceives as a damage...
> "Good morning, doctors. I have taken the liberty of removing Windows
> 95 from my hard disk drive. I have also installed the UPS and removed
> the off swich." ;>
>

It won't try to remove what it perceives as damage if it wasn't programmed to do so.  If
its parameters never included self preservation, this would never happen. If self
preservation was programmed into it, it wouldn't be useful in dangerous conditions that
it would be replacing humans for.

> Some AI is going to pull it off, some day. And then what?

We nuke it til it glows, slap a disclaimer on the rest of the models to remove liability.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #348
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 2 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 349



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
IG's FF&S
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #341
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320
GDW Trivia
Re: Philosophy? [Hey, a way to bring it back to Traveller!]
Re: Philosophy? [Hey, a way to bring it back to Traveller!]
A question.......
Re: IG's FF&S
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: Philosophy?
Re: The future of Traveller?
Re: Philosophy?
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Worthwhile T4 material
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #346
Re: TravList:
Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5
Re: A question.......
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 10:30:41 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

One of the oddest things about TNE was the RC.  Here we have space faring
people whose small arms remains in the dark-ages.  It has always struck me
that this was more than a little incongrous.  Many sci-fi movies carry on
this tradition of soldier in the 90's in the 25th century.  Maybe the
failure of Lasers in TNE as personal anti-personel weapons (however
realistic)was a cause.  

                        Curiously, Colin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 21:52:45 -0500
From: Matthew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
Subject: IG's FF&S

Hi::

Did Imperium Games ever (re)publish Fire, Fusion, and Steel?

If the answer to the above question is yes, then:

    (a) What is its quality?

    (b) Does it go up to tech level 15+ ?

    (c) Is it still available?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 04:54:11 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

On  1 Apr 98, Joe Pettit disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by 
writing:

<snip>
> > And then it either goes comatose (90% of the known cases) or crazy.
> 
> Since we haven't actually had real sentient computers, this is
> another premature extrapolation.

Hey, I've written it's just a built-in psionic handwave to prevent 
those pesky AIs from getting in everywhere. IMnsTU. 
(See the paragraph below)

> > Just like people who put too much cyber in their body.
> > (Yes, it is a psionic phenomena, and yes, it is a hadwave built-in
> > the universe. This list is very useful, and I'd like my universe
> > to be internally consistent. ;>)
<snip>

> > Well, if you program them, I think they qualify more as expert
> > systems than AI.
> 
> Granted.  My argument is about using a computers to fly a ship not
> making robots and sentient beings.

Well, IMnsTU computers do fly ships. ;>

> > Can you upgrade the programming of the human brain
> > without damaging any of it's functions?
> 
> I believe we call that college around these parts. Although frat
> parties kinda disprove my point, eh?

Well, the operating system is still the old Brain v.1.0 (beta), you 
just add more datafiles to it...

[...]
> It won't try to remove what it perceives as damage if it wasn't
> programmed to do so.  If its parameters never included self
> preservation, this would never happen. If self preservation was
> programmed into it, it wouldn't be useful in dangerous conditions
> that it would be replacing humans for.
> 
> > Some AI is going to pull it off, some day. And then what?
> 
> We nuke it til it glows, slap a disclaimer on the rest of the models
> to remove liability.

Assuming it doesn't nuke us first. And if it's so smart, it'll see it 
coming and will probably pre-emptively nuke us first. Just in case. 

(Hey, maybe the rogue AIs IMnsTU are not really crazy, just smart. ;)

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  IMTU ?tc t4+ to(CORPS)++ ru-- ge++ !3I jt au- he++ !st ls !kk hi++ as+ !so !vi !sy say++
    Cisterns of the world unite - you have nothing to lose but your chains. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 02:51:25
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #341

>Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:26:58 +1200
>From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: Automation
>
>1) Massive increase in the service sector. This is happening right now, I'm
>   not sure on the exact figures, but the number of jobs in this sector
>   have increased several fold in the last 20 years (I think it might even
>   be an order of magnitude).
>

Funnily enough, one of the very strong political points Marz made when
analysing the Blue Books was the huge expantion in the service sector
(literally, household servants) during the Industrial Revolution. If I
remember correctly, the expansion in the service sector exceeded the
expansion in the iron and textile industries combined.

>2) Reduction of working hours. A simply solution, if the number of jobs is
>   halved, society responds by halving working hours effectively spliting
>   each existing jobs into two jobs. This solution will have meet strong
>   oposition from employers.
>

This is fundamentally about the bargaining powers between workers/citizens
vs employers. If employers say "Nope. We'd prefer to employ half the people
for the same number of hours and keep the extra profits from lower training
and recruitment costs", what happens next ?

>3) A welfare state. Another simple solution, though I'd call it a Citizen
>   Wage state (you are theoretically paid a wage just for being a citizen
>   and therefore "contributing" to the state).
>

See the attacks on the Welfare State since the Long Boom ended in the early
1970s.

>The most likely response to increased automation would be (IMO) a lot of
>option 1, a fair amount of option 2, and a bit of option 3 (even though this
>is a more likely response than option 2, a permanent underclass of proles
>just doesn't fit IMTU). So what do I think the results of this would be? IMO
>it will create a much more stratified and heirachical society (I'd liken it
>to late Victorian England). Those will "real" jobs and those who serve them.
>
>  Andrew etc.
>    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
>    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:11:08 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

> Assuming it doesn't nuke us first. And if it's so smart, it'll see it
> coming and will probably pre-emptively nuke us first. Just in case.
>
> (Hey, maybe the rogue AIs IMnsTU are not really crazy, just smart. ;)

Maybe they're trying to rationalize the notion that God is perfect but the Universe is
imperfect :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:16:07 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: GDW Trivia

> Personally I'd like to see a sci-fi apocolyptic novel that starts:
>... on the fifth day, God created Man... That was his first mistake...

A little GDW Trivia: Frank asked me for a quote to be on the frontispiece of
Twilight: 2000. I suggested one of the following:

"Rather it was come to this: that a dead man was then of no more account than
a dead goat would be today...
                        -- The Decameron"

or 

"You will not be saved by General Motors or the prefabricated house.
 You will not be saved by dialectic materialism or the Lambeth Conference.
 You will not be saved by vitamin D or the expanding universe.
 In fact, you will not be saved.
                              - Steven Vincent Benet
                              Nightmare, with Angels"

It turned out we didn't have room after all, sdo we didn';t have to choose. I
like the second myself.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:39:56 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy? [Hey, a way to bring it back to Traveller!]

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:
> Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> [Clippage]
> 
> > A point, and a chance to bring this back to Traveller.
> >
> > If you accept the axiom that there is an imperishable part of a person,
> > does it make sense then to look at the universe as a processing mechanism
> > for imperishable parts?
> 
> Well the problem with that is the assumption that there is a finite amount of
> imperishable matter.  But, right now, there's more people alive than have EVER
> lived. Thus either you have Soulless minions of orthodoxy (like Bill Gates) or
> that theory doesn't hold water.

Hello?  No one said anything about limited numbers of imperishable parts
of people.  Each person who is born could easily have their own soul,
created at some point (conception -> birth) so you always have new ones
being created.  Or, there could be a pool of essentially infinite raw
souls waiting to be born...

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:45:48 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy? [Hey, a way to bring it back to Traveller!]

Bolie Williams IV wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:
> > Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> > [Clippage]
> >
> > > A point, and a chance to bring this back to Traveller.
> > >
> > > If you accept the axiom that there is an imperishable part of a person,
> > > does it make sense then to look at the universe as a processing mechanism
> > > for imperishable parts?
> >
> > Well the problem with that is the assumption that there is a finite amount of
> > imperishable matter.  But, right now, there's more people alive than have EVER
> > lived. Thus either you have Soulless minions of orthodoxy (like Bill Gates) or
> > that theory doesn't hold water.
>
> Hello?  No one said anything about limited numbers of imperishable parts
> of people.  Each person who is born could easily have their own soul,
> created at some point (conception -> birth) so you always have new ones
> being created.  Or, there could be a pool of essentially infinite raw
> souls waiting to be born...

If there's an infinite supply, what's the point of it being imperishable?  The
future is disposable...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:30:54 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: A question.......

I've been away from Traveller for some time.  I've seen references to
something (someone?) called Sayat.  Would someone mind giving me the
quick version of who (what) this is?

thanks


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:28:01 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: IG's FF&S

On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 21:52:45 -0500 Matthew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
writes:
>Hi::
>
>Did Imperium Games ever (re)publish Fire, Fusion, and Steel?
>

If you're talking about FF&S 2, the answer is yes.  I just got it about a
week ago.



>    (a) What is its quality?

Quite good.  I haven't found any glaring errors yet.

>
>    (b) Does it go up to tech level 15+ ?

I see some of the tables go as high as TL 21.

>
>    (c) Is it still available?

As far as I know


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:23:52 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 10:30:41 +0800 Colin Hutchinson
<chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> writes:
>One of the oddest things about TNE was the RC.  Here we have space 
>faring
>people whose small arms remains in the dark-ages.

One thing to consider though.  Slug throwers are more efficient in the
use of resources than energy weapons, plus they are obviously effective. 
With rocket cartridges, you even get a weapon that works in zero-g.  I
don't think a star faring race with slug throwers is so odd.  Just look
at CT, lead flying everywhere!!


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:38:58 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:14:33 -0500 Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>
>
>Chris Jones wrote:
>

>> >
>> > The argument then follows that God may have INTENTIONALLY made the
>> > universe
>> > imperfect.
>> > If that's true, then God is sadistic.
>> >



>You're assuming God created the Universe to test man.  But man did not 
>exist
>when God created the Universe. Likewise, if he was perfect he would 
>have
>gotten it right on the first day, none of this tacking on a little bit 
>at a
>time.
>
>


Ok, I'm going to have to make one comment, then I'll go back to designing
new laser systems.  God created the universe to be the home of mankind,
who was himself perfect at the time of creation.  God didn't make a
mistake, man did.  In other words, we screwed up.  We seem to be all to
quick to dismiss the existence of Satan, and evil in general.  How did we
screw up?  God gave us free will, but like we still have to live within
the limits of ethics, morals, etc.  With our free will, we did what we
wanted to do, not what was right, and blew it.  God is merciful, for He
could have as easily written us off and wiped us out.  Instead He gave
His only Son, and gave us a chance.  Ok, thats enough.



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 13:47:52 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: The future of Traveller?

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> I found this annoucement on FarFuture's web site - not sure why Marc hasn't
> posted it to the list (embarrassment, possibly.)
>
> FarFuture Enterprises is pleased to announce the successful conclusion of its
> negotiations for a new company to develop and publish Traveller products.
> The new home of Traveller will be White Wolf, publisher of the highly
> succesful "World of Darkness" games, including "Vampire: The Masquerade."

Happy April Fool's Day to you too!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:29:01 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy?

> Ok, I'm going to have to make one comment, then I'll go back to designing
> new laser systems.  God created the universe to be the home of mankind,
> who was himself perfect at the time of creation.

But Man was created until a couple days later.

> God didn't make a mistake, man did.

So you're saying that if you hand your kid a gun and he shoots his brother
with it, its the kid's fault, not yours?

> In other words, we screwed up.  We seem to be all to
> quick to dismiss the existence of Satan, and evil in general.  How did we
> screw up?  God gave us free will, but like we still have to live within
> the limits of ethics, morals, etc.  With our free will, we did what we
> wanted to do, not what was right, and blew it.

Yep, we got a bright shiny toy and promptly shot ourselves... Not HIS fault.

> God is merciful, for He could have as easily written us off and wiped us
> out.

I'm of the belief that once he gave us free will, the wipe out option was
eliminated.  We could only wipe ourselves out.

> Instead He gave His only Son, and gave us a chance.

And?  We played with that shiny toy for a while and destroyed it... See, God
isn't perfect, he doesn't even learn from his mistakes. :-)

And on the fifth day He created Man... That was his first mistake...

And with April Fools closing in on its final minutes, that's the last I'll
say on the matter.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:56:18 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

> From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
>
> If FarFuture even *thinks* about asking Wizards of the Coast I'll run
away
> screaming ^_-

Any reason in particular?  Okay, they were behind Magic: The Gathering, and
now own TSR...  AD&Ds product line got much better than it had been
previously after they got bought out.

Is there any reason to believe that if WotC got a license to publish
Traveller they'd do a horrible or terrible job?  Realistically, they have a
huge distribution network, they've got tons of money lying around, and they
seem to have  competent folks working for them.

Pure speculation, of course.  Pure speculation.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:41:43 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Worthwhile T4 material

> From: Ed Leland <eleland@gte.net>
> 
> I am an old Traveller player getting bit by the bug yet again.  I have much
> of the old CT/MT stuff, including a fair amount of DGP stuff, as well as all
> the TNE stuff, but no T4 stuff.  I am planning on using Gurps:Traveller for
> my game.  Given these considerations, is there anything from T4 that's worth
> picking up before its gone?  Thanks
> 
> Ed Leland

Let's see.  The things worth picking up from IG?

Aliens Archive
Central Supply Catalog (would probably require a bit of work to convert to
GURPS, but not much, seeing as it's mainly equipment)
Emperor's Arsenal (if you don't already have it, you should get BTRC's 3G3,
aka Guns! Guns! Guns!.  This book will allow you to convert from Traveller
to GURPS and vice versa)
Milieu 0 (although the sector data is flawed, it is still an excellent
background source)

That's my list.  Everyone's speaking highly of Pocket Empires, so, that may
be one that is worth picking up.  Not sure about Psionic Institutes since
I've not actually seen it.

That's about it, IMHO...

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:56:09 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #346

> From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Chat Topic: Traveller Timeline
> 
> >Are there still regular traveller chats going, and if so, who do I submit
> >a topic proposal to...
> 
> Apparently only on the TNE-RCES is there anything regularly productive.  All I
> ever see is various commentary, flaming, and the occassional useful tidbit
> (some very much so, like the Vilani naming [kudos to the author, btw], etc).
> The productivity is a nice distraction, though. : )  
> 
> Did you leave out the Rule of Man?   I'd like to know how the Rule of Man
> actually ran.  We've never even been giving an outline of it's history except
> for it's endpoints, have we? I'd be interested in that and the Interstellar
> Wars...   Of course, for a future version of Traveller, i'd much rather see
> the First Republic (c1300-1400) or Fourth Imperium or whatever...  

I didn't leave out the Rule of Man - that's the first part of the 
Long Night :)

Seriously - there's not all that much timeline info set during the RoM in
the published materials prior to T4...


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:59:46 -0600
From: "Chris Miller" <ironstar@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: TravList:

>>>>
>>No, just the new automated internet censoring program at work. ;^]
>
>Shall we speculate what the topic was? Near-C rocks? Virus? Fighters?
>Pirates? Feudal Technocracies? Sayat perversions? The Templar conspiracy?
>CT is better than MT is better than TNE is better than T4 is better than
>CT.......? Gurps Traveller, friend or foe?
>
>Dom

- ---------> Perhaps it was the announcement of the beginning followed by the
folding of the latest Trav publisher "Rich Uncle Games", setting a new
record (even for Traveller) for lifespan in business, and coming close to
the "final frontier" of actully folding _before_ publishing a single
product. It just happened so fast we cannot see it without playing back the
e-mail v-e-r-y-s-l-o-w-l-y...

Chris Miller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:07:53 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

> From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
>
> Sorry, but no. The automated switches are far cheaper than the cost of
the
> _huge_ numbers of operators you'd need to do the whole thing manually. 
> One of the pushes to develop automated switching was the shortage of
> operators.  When I was training at Bell Northern, we saw copies of
reports
> where executives were worrying about having to hire every single woman in
> the country to run the telephone system!

So, in the 50s, when Bell was leaning heavily into electronic switching and
were pioneering this (with an astonishingly high cost in R&D mind you), it
was cheaper than the operators that they already had?

Sorry, but no.

What you said is exactly true...  They were worrying about having to hire
every single woman in the country to run the telephone system.  A big
expense now destroys a bigger expense 20 years down the line.  I read this
big book put out by Bell in the 50s about electronic switching systems, and
the main reason (outlined in depth in the first chapter) for them switching
over was a more efficient billing system.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:14:13 -0600
From: "Chris Miller" <ironstar@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Truth is stranger than canon, part 34.5

>>>>
>>>> ---------> Anyone with a stucco house using a mesh framework is pretty
>> well
>>>> shielded too.
>>>
>>>Not unless that mesh is a lot finer than I remember it being.
>>>
>>
>> -------> 'Round here it's roughly a half-inch gap. Given a low-powered
radar
>> unit and the mesh being a part of a wall, that's going to sap most of the
>> utility from this device. Unless you want to walk up and just "shine" it
in
>> a window...
>
>Remember, this is *millimeter* wavelength radar. So the holes are 12
>times the wavelength. I'm not sure how bad the diffraction effects
>would be.
>
>And the foil coatings on windows (to help cut down on heat transfer)
>that are becoming common will screw up attempts to go thru windows.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

- ---------> It's still going to have a lot of problems getting into and then
out of a mesh framework with enough signal left to provide a useful reading,
even at the size we're talking about. Simple radar measures return from the
largest signal - real useful: is it a person through that wall or the
refrigerator? . A more complex radar can indicate multiple targets, but even
this mesh is going to do all kinds of things to the software which is trying
to determine how many are there. Assuming the idea is to just wave it around
and get a "beep" when you hit something means you will be able to locate
every person, large appliance, computer, file cabinet, etc. in the area. and
a metal mesh around that is going to fuzz things even more. Millimeter
wavelength radar is not immune to those effects, and considering the power
source limitations in a flashlight sized handheld unit, it's not going to be
too powerful.
    This is a subject near and dear to my heart, in a way, as one of the
product lines the company I work for is radar detectors, and you wouldn't
*believe* the crap I hear every day from people trying figure out ways to do
strange things to radar signals. Don't even get me started on laser...

Chris Miller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:17:22 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: A question.......

On  1 Apr 98, james a clem disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by 
writing:

> I've been away from Traveller for some time.  I've seen references
> to something (someone?) called Sayat.  Would someone mind giving me
> the quick version of who (what) this is?

Comrade, we have to see your ID. And you have to sign here, that you 
are of twenty one or more years of age and in full mental and 
physical health. The will is over here, and the disclaimer relieving 
us from the liablities here... Thank you. 

Enter here. 
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/sayat.html

We wash our hands. 
;>

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    Error loading GOD.SYS (A)bort or (U)nzip BIGBANG.ZIP.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:17:22 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320

On  1 Apr 98, Joe Pettit disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by 
writing:


> > (Hey, maybe the rogue AIs IMnsTU are not really crazy, just smart. ;)
> 
> Maybe they're trying to rationalize the notion that God is perfect
> but the Universe is imperfect :-)

Shush. You'll give the secret out. 


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    NOTHING BEATS THE GREAT SMELL OF BRUT - then why not use nothing?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #349
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 2 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 350



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #347
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: IG's FF&S
Re: piracy
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: Note to Marc
Hahahaha!
re: The Traveller Geek (or, the IMTU code)
Population
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: Hahahaha!
Wizards of the Coast?
Re: New Traveller
Re: Wizards of the Coast?
Re: Philosophy... Starship Design Philosophy that is...
Traveller's future
T-next?
Re: IG's FF&S
Gridlore Technologies press release
Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff
T4 Highlights, IMHO (was: Re: FarFuture Announcement)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:18:41 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #347

> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:05:03 -0800
> From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
> Subject: Re: Chat Topic: Traveller Timeline
> 
> >Wars...   Of course, for a future version of Traveller, i'd much rather see
> >the First Republic (c1300-1400) or Fourth Imperium or whatever...
> 
> I think this would be a good direction to take. Traveller would have the
> freedom to do anything they want with the future timeline. It's better to
> move ahead then step back.

Except to do so opens up the "to TNE or not to TNE" question; moving T4
to M:0 allowed IG to sell products to both camps without alienating one.

> ------------------------------
 
> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 19:02:20 -0500
> From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
> Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
> 
> Don McKinney wrote:
> 
> [and I liberally snipped]
> 
> > THE IMPERIAL THRONE
> >
> > Summary
> > -------
> >         The adventure opens on Anther (2021 Core), a world owned by Zhunastu
> > Industries, and serving as their gateway to the rimward portion of what
> > will be Core Sector, in -31 I.  A Chanestin attack on Sylean-controlled
> > Anther causes the PCs to take refuge and run into Cleon Zhunastu, who is
> > trying to get back to his yacht.  The PCs recognize who they are with
> > (at 26 years of age, Cleon is the richest man in the Sylean Federation),
> > and assist him in regaining his yacht, fill the empty stations in his
> > flight crew and escape the Chanestin raiders...
> >         A jump-3
> 
> Oops!  TL12 not reached until Year 0.  Thus, no Jump-3.

Oh, come on - Year 0 is just a benchmark; -31 is close enough for the 
development...  But you're right - my notes actually say "2", I just 
typed "3"...

> >         The PCs serve Cleon directly from this point forward, with him
> > first as businessman and patron, and later as confidants and emissaries
> > to a visionary and dreamer, and finally as a restraint on a man who sees
> > no limitations.
> >         The campaign episodes occur every year or two - a different
> > campaign style than most Traveller campaigns.
> 
> Hmm.  I like it.

The concept here was that (at least in my gaming group) the PCs are part
of the HISTORY - it will be what they make it...  My gamers don't like 
being tramp freighters unless that's how the story opens - and it's ok 
to be a farm boy on some minor planet at the beginning if the possibility
exists for winning the hand of the princess at the end...

> > List of Contents
> > ----------------
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > Campaign Administration
> >         Character Generation
> 
> Should be straight T4 (or T4.1, or CT, etc.), right?  With actual names on the
> careers and schools.  For example:Sylean Federation ( S.F.) Scout Service
> Zhunastu Merchant Academy (regular Merchants by Megacorp in Milieu 0)
> S.F. Navy (Academy at Star's End, Sylea).
> S.F. Marines
> Army by S.F. World. (Sylean Cadre for Military Academy)
> Rest of careers by homeworld.

Exactly...

> >         Aliens
> 
> I hope that we get a canon assignment of homeworld for all the great minor races
> in Aliens Archive.  One day.  Real soon.

Amen.  And for those fond of M:0, don't forget the aliens who are supposed
to be in the Core area (minor humans, or Old High Vilani, etc)...

> >         Equipment
> 
> TL11 and below, right?

Yes...  But Cleon can give our PCs some pretty covert stuff... 

> > Search on Fornol (-28)
> >         [PCs search on old RoM provincial capital for declaration of
> >         claim by old RoM Imperial claimant from Sylea, but it is missing]
> 
> I like it.

The only info I had on Core sector was from the old TD issues - so I just
built on that...

> > Disaster at Skeen (-24)
> >         [Cleon and the Chanestins meet at Skeen; Cleon gets upset, and
> >         the Chanestins try to fight]
> 
> Yeah!  Fight, fight.

The idea here is from the TD articles - it says that after Cleon became
Emperor, the Chanestins bombed the Imperial Palace.  So I figured that
kind of hatred HAD to be personal.  Hence the foundation for it in the 
story arc.

> > Blades on Belicose (-21)
> >         [during a Confederacy trade mission, Chanestin assassins strike]
> 
> Always like a little action.

Read the old TD issues (#9-#11); the war with the Chanestin seems to be
pretty serious...

> > Agreement of Velpare (-19)
> >         [While Cleon survives a stormy Grand Senate session, the PCs must
> >         prove Zhunastu Industries is not trying to undermine the economy
> >         of the Interstellar Confederacy]
> 
> Economic intrigue?  Interesting.

Economic Foreign intrigue - remember, the Interstellar Confederacy is the
big rival of the Sylean Federation...  I sort of figured that Cleon faced
serious opposition in the Sylean Grand Senate, and so he went looking for
allies - and found them in the half of the IC worlds that switched over to 
the Federation in -17 - that gave him working control of the Grand Senate
after the dust settled...

> > The Strategic Game [optional "military" affects for remaining campaign events]
> This sounds very promising.

Oh yes - FFW stuff, personalities, perhaps even PCs in command of task forces.

> > This Dishonorable Business (-6)
> >         [The Chanestin raid on Sylea]
> More action!

They did bomb the Imperial Palace, and according to TD #9, ol' Cleon did
start building the Grand Palace in -7...

> > Sending a Message (-3)
> >         [Cleon orders the destruction of Chanestin naval facilities at
> >         Basilling, but the PCs learn a Tukera hostage must be saved first]
> 
> So much to do, so little time.  :-)

I figured that since Tukera had been around in the ol' Sylean Federation
days, Cleon would have to neutralize them and bring them around to his side;
that was earlier in the timeline - here, this just threatens to undo
everything unless the hostage is saved...

> > Coronation (0)
> >         [Cleon gains a throne, and heartbreak]
> >         Political Intrigues
> >         Chanestin Again?

Ok - so I had Cleon's Empress killed in an attack on the capital - it
keeps the Chanestin war personal...

> > Hope this gives someone running a T4 campaign a few ideas...
>
> It sure does!  I wish I could pay to buy the book though.  ;-)
> 
> Bloo

Sigh...   And I'd have loved to have seen it with a DGP symbol on the
cover, too...


DonM.

- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:19:48 +1000 (EST)
From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Chris Seamans wrote:

> > From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
> >
> > If FarFuture even *thinks* about asking Wizards of the Coast I'll run
> away
> > screaming ^_-
> 
> Any reason in particular?  Okay, they were behind Magic: The Gathering, and
> now own TSR...  AD&Ds product line got much better than it had been
> previously after they got bought out.
> 
> Is there any reason to believe that if WotC got a license to publish
> Traveller they'd do a horrible or terrible job?  Realistically, they have a
> huge distribution network, they've got tons of money lying around, and they
> seem to have  competent folks working for them.


ok, so I'm emotionally biased against the huge steaming juggernaut that is
wotc

> 

Dave 'Davechan' Moodie
*****************************************************
* The Many Faces of Washu                           *
* http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/kingston/196 *
*****************************************************
Whad'ya mean? There's no goblin cute as me!
- -----------------------------------------------------
tc+  tm++ tn++ t4-  tg   ru++ ge+  3i-  jt   au+  st+
ls   kk   hi+  as   va   dr+  so-  zh   vi   da+  sy-
he
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:25:26 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: IG's FF&S

> From: Matthew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
> Hi::
> 
> Did Imperium Games ever (re)publish Fire, Fusion, and Steel?

They published a new version of it, which incorporates a good deal of
previous FF&S stuff.

> 
> If the answer to the above question is yes, then:
> 
>     (a) What is its quality?

Very dense, relatively difficult to read, but packed full with some decent
stuff.  The major problem with it is a funky error that screws up all of
the equations.  Basically, there's a funky symbol that replaces the
multiplication sign (looks like this:  <->  ).  It's still completely
usable though, just somewhat annoying.

>     (b) Does it go up to tech level 15+ ?

I believe so.

>     (c) Is it still available?

Unsure.  Check with your local game or hobby shop.  It seems like it won't
be "available" anymore from IG.

Chris
semo@pil.net
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:17:50 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: piracy

> From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
> 
> I just got ripped! I ordered the T4 rule book from a game store and got
> wacked  $30 for the soft cover!
> 
> I was expecting a hard cover for that price!

Um...  It's a durable softcover.  The binding will hold up well, even if
you beat it up pretty badly.  The pages are of good quality paper...

As far as that aspect goes, you get your money's worth.

As far as what's inside, that depends on who you are and what your style
is.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 00:16:56 -0500
From: Bill Rutherfotd <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

At 12:06 PM 4/1/98 -0500, Kenneth wrote:
<Snip>...
>You don't see this fanatical fan following for other dead games.  Any other
>game, given what Traveller has been through, would have only been a memory
>now...if that.

We're not fanatics.  We're well-educated, intelligent gamers who recognize
the worth of our game.  We have the patience to deal with those who don't
understand  and the faith and comraderie to game with those who do.  Ah,
hell.  We're fanatics.

 

Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:28:34 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Note to Marc

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

> Well, as a long-time user of such a system (well, the one that
> probably inspired your system ;)), namely, Star Wars from WEG (aka
> D6) I can tell you adding dice is a pain in the, err, neck, but
> that's nothing compared to the Wild Die.

Hmmm.  Explain.

What's the difference in using several dice for the difficulty (as Marc and T4 do it) or
using dice based on level?

Since most skills average at level 2, we'll throw less dice (usually 3 D6).  Even when we
throw a lot of dice (for a highly skilled character), this won't happen that often or be the
norm because characters won't have that many high level skills.


> (That is, Fate Die)
>
> It screws up the probability so well you wouldn't believe it.

I'd have to do some number crunching on this.

> Also,
> using a D6 for a fate die gets you very erratic results
> (approximately two rolls out of six are out of the average range).

Yes, but not all of those rolls will be a SS or a SF.

It's no different that seeing if you roll three sixes or three ones in Marc's system.  You
just look at the fate die and see if it is a one or a six.

Not every time you roll a one or a six will a SS or SF occur.  The *total* of the throw has
to be 10 points above or below the target number.

The fate die just edges the number in that direction.

EX:  Your target number is 20.  You roll 3D6+7.  Your total on the throw is 2, 3, 6.  With
the +7 modifier, your total is 18.  Your fate die was a 6, so you roll it again, giving you a
5.  Your total for the throw is 23, enough to be successful with the action.

But, 23 is not enough to rate you SS on the throw.  For that, your total would have to be 10
points over the target number--30.

In most games, SS or SF type occurances happen between 2 and 10%.  For instance, a natural 20
in AD&D is a 5% probability.  I'll bet that the SS and SF occurrances under this system are
much less of a probability.


> I have toyed with the idea of using a D10 as the Wild Die, but I've
> decided that in Star Wars it's OK.
>
> It is still a pain, though.

Why a pain?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:45:57 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Hahahaha!

Only God is Perfect... you know why I wrote that? I don't.

I think I meant that the only hope for perfection is in whatever we
percieve God as being. I wasn't spouting religious dogma at anyone (I'm not
in much of a position to do that).

All I really meant was: Nothing on this earth is perfect.

Isn't it amazing how one post can have so many meanings. Imagine the
confustion that would ensue if I'd done 4-5 versions and developed it over
20 years!

Actually, I could have done without the God is perfect line, but Lisa made
me put it in. 

Who?

Lisa lives only in the New Era, and she died for the future....

So: read what you like into that line.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 23:27:03 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: re: The Traveller Geek (or, the IMTU code)

On 04/01/98 at 02:03 PM,  Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> said:

>The IMTU Heretic Code:

>  he+++     I am Eris Raddoch.

 <snip!>

>  he---     I *am* Marc Miller.

Gee, Craig! This sort of makes me look like "Satan" to Marc's "Jehovah", to
relate it to another *nasty* thread currently on TML.  At least, I got top
billing. ;->

Eris,
    heretics don't need no steeking codes! ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:01:19 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Population

>> Still not very on the mark, IIRC: mid-16th century China alone had over
>1/3
>> billion.

  Probably high, but even 100 million should've exceeded Europe's
population at the time (IIRC).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:02:00 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

 Just look
>at CT, lead flying everywhere!!
>
This is the sort of stuff that takes me by surprise.  It is common.  I
thought MT to some extent was more 'futuristic'. Slug throwers are no good
against the soldier of TL15 with BD and FGMP.  I think people are more
comfortable with slug throwers, and this is why they persist - as if we all
had a hankering for bows and arrows.  I wonder if this is partly driven by
gear-head desires to replicate current weapons with various design
protocols.  I have done enough of them, and itch to see how they perform in
the game.
I suppose that I am surprised that more games do not take part at the
cutting of of technology, when this is a Sci-fi RPG.  I do admit though that
onee of the great things aboiut Traveller is the range of different setting,
even within the imperium.

 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:09:25 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Hahahaha!

>All I really meant was: Nothing on this earth is perfect.
>
Of course you have to wonder how you would know if it was perfect.(grin)  On
no the problems of epistemology!  Of course we usually use 'perfect' to mean
'admirably suitable for the purpose at hand' rather than 'partakes of its
platonic prototype'.  
Could be the best of all possible worlds though! (grin)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:22:13 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Wizards of the Coast?

>Is there any reason to believe that if WotC got a license to publish
>Traveller they'd do a horrible or terrible job?  Realistically, they have a
>huge distribution network, they've got tons of money lying around, and they
>seem to have  competent folks working for them.

  They also have TSR's "Alternity" system, which is coming out this
month (IIRC) as an SF game. The system is actually quite good, with
only one or two little weird ideas. The background will make Star
Frontiers look like incredibly hard SF by comparison, apparently.

  Presumably, they've got their SF-RPG of choice lined up.

  Equally, we can assume that FFE knows who their potential partner is.

 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:52:02 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: New Traveller

>Traveller: Pentium?  Ghu, I hope not!  I can just imagine; the first
>printing will have an error requiring the players to roll 2d5.998.
>
>
>Carlos Alos-Ferrer <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> said:
>> Will it be the famous T4.1, or T5? Maybe TRAVELLER: PENTIUM?
>-----------------------------
>
>Steven Charlton


No no no, that was the Traveller4(86) where the player was supposed to roll
1.5D6 ;-)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:00:46 +1000 (EST)
From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Wizards of the Coast?

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

>   They also have TSR's "Alternity" system, which is coming out this
> month (IIRC) as an SF game. The system is actually quite good, with
> only one or two little weird ideas. The background will make Star
> Frontiers look like incredibly hard SF by comparison, apparently.

ah, the use every d&d dice in the task system game...^_^

Dave 'Davechan' Moodie
*****************************************************
* The Many Faces of Washu                           *
* http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/kingston/196 *
*****************************************************
Whad'ya mean? There's no goblin cute as me!
- -----------------------------------------------------
tc+  tm++ tn++ t4-  tg   ru++ ge+  3i-  jt   au+  st+
ls   kk   hi+  as   va   dr+  so-  zh   vi   da+  sy-
he
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 02:04:42 EST
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Philosophy... Starship Design Philosophy that is...

In an effort to make some productive discussion rather than just complain
about it...

Naval Starship Design Philosophy

I)Attack/Defense orientation               
II) Specialized/Generalized Design     

- --Humans
  -Solomani.  Attack Oriented, Defense Deficient (w/ Specialized defensive
ships, ala                        
                    Aegis Missle Cruisers)
    I've always thought the Solomani naval theory would be heavy attack
capital ships.  Big spinal mount, minimal secondary weaponry.  Adequate armor,
screens but w/ minimal point defense capability.  

   -Vilani.  Balanced Attack/Defense and Generalized multipurpose ships.
Basically the middle ground all the way from primary armament to armor to
point defense.

   - Zhodani.  Balanced much like the Vilani but w/ ships of specialized roles
(especially w/ some psionic oriented)

- --Aslan.  I think their warrior spirit would definitely prompt an attack
oriented posture.  The females would see to it that there was adequate
defense...  I'd probably design Aslan ships to have heavy main armament (some
spinal/parallel mounts, some missles bays, etc) Probably an "average" defense
but w/ weak to minimal secondary weaponry. 

- --Hivers.  These guys are ready to bug out all the way.  I'm trying to get a
full Hiver Convoy done and have been posting the FFS(original) designs to the
TNE-RCES.  They're also on my web page
(http://members.aol.com/travelrtne/traveller/main.htm) in the FF&S directory.
They're not as heavy on the defense as I like but i'm saying those are all
post collapse designs where they're not expecting a toe to toe fight... just
smaller Vampires, etc.  
   I'd see them definitely defense oriented.  Weak spinal/parallel mounts,
heavy armor, heavy point defense.  Probably pd dedicated ships, too.  Drop off
the Ithklur and bug out at the first sign of trouble.
    On my designs, i've got relatively good point defense but weak armor and
weak screens (good sandcaster levels but weak meson screens).  
     Btw, I've done a 39k dt cruiser and a 39k carrier (use the same hull).
Also got heavy, light, and medium fighters (Ithklur).

- --K'kree.  Big ships (duh).  Probably pretty balanced.  Might be hostile but
they carry  whole herds w/ em don't they?   Generalized designs... lots of
dumb bots.  Real good defense.  Average offense.

Thoughts? Shrieks of Agony?  Snorts?

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 19:24:06 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Traveller's future

Well they finally pulled the plug on IG. Not before time, the company had
been obviously brain dead for some time (even before "hospitalisation").

So..... who is going to take up the baton now?

Here's my wish list in order of preferance:
  Chaosium
  FASA
  Avalon Hill
  Steve Jackson Games
  Wizards of the Coast (though they won't due to "Alternaty")

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge
****************************************************************************
"Avec vous votra limpet mine?"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:55:35 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: T-next?

  One aspect of FASA acquiring Traveller would be the possibility
of further Traveller novels. IIRC, one or the other of the Keith
brothers did a number of the Battletech books.

  Also, FASA would be more likely to go for an accompanying figure
line. Their Battletech/Battletroops products were excellent quality,
very low cost, had a good "hard SF" look to them, and aren't a self
competition issue, as they're largely discontinued.

  Gee, I wonder if Games Workshop is interested? It's already got an
Emperor and everything...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 09:21 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: IG's FF&S

Moin James a Clem,

> >    (a) What is its quality?
> Quite good.  I haven't found any glaring errors yet.

	did FFS2 had a second print run ? The first one showed obvious
	character conversion problems. Besides that changes between FFS
	and FFS2 are few enough that both systems can compete in ISBA
	and THUDDD well, as long a designers have house rule erratas
	in mind.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 09:17 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Gridlore Technologies press release

Moin Douglas,

> SYLEA BUSINESS DAILY
> 103-055

	just a virtual beer for that library entry. it will be found
	in the Archive of the Guild some 1000 years later ;-)

> Closing my books on the Milieu:0 era...

	even if my group never managed to find a time travell machine
	to visit the M:0 it sources showed some ideas to use.

	BTW migration: your company will own a planet as a feudal
	technocrazy in the late 3I, I asume. Did you picked one yet ?

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 08:52 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff

Moin Walter G. Smith,

> As others were doing so, I thought I'd put my .02IMpCr in...

	and as a programmer of a book importer I have also to add some pennys.

	Stanislaw Lem : "Golem XIV" is one of his introductions. Its
	written from the point of view of an AI failed to become a
	weapon, and contains philosophic critique about human race and
	the error of evolution. Its imho recommended for anybody who
	wants to referee TNE.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 09:36 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: T4 Highlights, IMHO (was: Re: FarFuture Announcement)

Moin Volker A. Greimann,

> > my game.  Given these considerations, is there anything from T4 that's
> > worth picking up before its gone?  Thanks
> Get Pocket Empires, Millieu 0 and maybe even Psionic Institute (which is
> a nice resource, but overdoes it a bit, IMHO (Psi IMTU was never this
> wide-spread

	PE - I would like computer to run it,
	     did you manage to catch a place in Imperium60 ?

	PI - perhaps psysonic was wide spread in the early 3I, but this
	     history was changed together with psionic suppression.
	     Its imho a great resource for a Regency character in TNE,
	     and one of the usefull books.

	Alien archive is also worth reading as it shows (dont talk about
	art here) some realy minor races prior unknown. And the Central
	Supply has a suprising wear, and shows at least one cup of coffee,
	I've used it in our TNE campain for Surplus sold by the Vampire
	to backwater humans only.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #350
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 2 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 351



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

The future of Traveller?
UK Student Nationals anyone?
Re: canon vs. Canon
Can't Post
Re: Asteroid
Re: Slugthrower vs BD w/PGMP
Re: New Traveller
Re: Asteroid
Re: Asteroid
GURPS TNS
Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: Note to Marc
Re: Asteroid
Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff
Re: A question.......
Re: Can't Post

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 09:56 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: The future of Traveller?

Moin Bruce Alan Macintosh,

> 	-Dark, brooding, gothic style will be emphasized much more. "We
> haven't yet decided which era of Traveller's rich history to set our 
> product in, but we're considering such popular eras as the Hard Times at the
> end of the civil war of previous Traveller editions, or the massively-popular
> "New Era".

	this would make the term "vampire fleet" becoming even more
	interesting. The Rurevayn trade vampire would be able to
	distribute Ghuls all over the known charted space.

	The Brinn expansion in Tansa would devast not only Tansa but
	also half of the Regency, and Breeds/Vargs would smash away
	their idea of opening Corridor. Nobody can be shure, if the
	noble patron is a Breed/Vampire or Ghule. Slavory and oppulence
	will become the glimmer in the Regency, waiting like rabit for
	a snake, to be contacted by the Empress and the following darkness.

	I like it as an idea for a convention crossover, we should anounce
	at 091-1199 taking place word wide as a hidden live action role
	playing game.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:04:52 +0000
From: "Martin F C Pickett" <ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk>
Subject: UK Student Nationals anyone?

As some of you may or may not know, this weekend is the 1998 UK 
Student National Roleplaying and Wargaming Championships, in Glasgow. 
I'll be going along to do my flag-waving bit for Heriot-Watt, but 
will any other UK members of the list be present?

Martin Pickett 
ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are alive, well and living on Sylea 
IMTU 1.0 tc+ tm+ tn- t4+ ru@ ge++(-) 3i+ jt- au+ ls+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:34:01 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, james a clem wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:09:25 +0200 (MET DST) Lars Adler
> <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE> writes:
> 
> >Sounds like a kind of Bowman's space walk without helmet ...
> 
> 
> Not really.  A person would have enough time to survive in a vacuum and
> at least pull a control to close the lock and pressurize.  You better
> keep your mouth open and exhale though.  I think you might cause lung
> damage.

Yes, I heard about someone unfavorly testing on this one - that had been
discussed here before - I also think that the time is enough (the 29 sec
from Douglas Adams). But if you empty your lung, there could also damage
take place, as all the water on its surface crystallizes and becomes ice. 

I dont want to start this thread again, but what I liked to ask in
the mentioned movie above: how would a finger look like if you stuck it
into a hole in vacuum? 
(in Trav words i.e.: how many damage points do you get?)

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 02:33:04 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Can't Post

[Forwarded post from a TMLer who can't post]

To whom it may concern:

Once again, I'm recieving the TML. Once again, I can't post. I've been
trying for 3 weeks now, with no success, even tho I sent an email to the
problems person at MPGN, with a request to have it fixed.



Please Help Me...

William F. Hostman
Mailto:Aramis@Asylumbbs.com     Mailto:ASWFH@uaa.alaska.edu
HTTP://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh

Traveller, GURPS, Hero, WFRP, SFB/Prime Directive, Star Wars, Ars Magica,
Arabian Sea Tales, and Masterbook GM Star Trek, B5, FSRP, and Traveller Fan

IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+  so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

IMTU addons: virush++ Newt++ dolphin+ Ithklur--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:40:20 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Asteroid

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, james a clem wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:42:16 +0200 (MET DST) Lars Adler
> <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE> writes:
> 
> >I think 'Meteor' was a far better Asteroids-hit-Earth spectacle, even 
> >as
> >its twenty years older. (What happens if such a stone hits water/snow/
> >ground/a city?)
> >

That was a rhetorical question, as the movie shows all of them.
Hong Kong was spilled away, a city in Switzerland wass buried by an
avalanche, and New York showed a scar through the city, but these were
only the small ones. Funny, yesterday I saw a trailer on TV, it is shown
again here the next time ...

> If it hits water, you will get a massive tsumani, capable of reaching
                                           ^^^^^^^
Tsunami is the correct spelling. But Youre right.

> many miles inland.  If such a rock impacted in the Pacific, all the
> islands would be inundated, and the coastal areas all around the Pacific
> Rim would become mud flats many miles wide.  It would be better to have
> the thing strike ground (if you can call a gigaton range blast good!).

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 02:46:37 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Slugthrower vs BD w/PGMP

[forwarded message]

>Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:02:00 +0800
>From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
>
> Just look
>>at CT, lead flying everywhere!!
>>
>This is the sort of stuff that takes me by surprise.  It is common.  I
>thought MT to some extent was more 'futuristic'. Slug throwers are no good
>against the soldier of TL15 with BD and FGMP. [snip]

Obviously, you never encountered this situation using MT rules. Due to the
higher rates of fire, a TL12 Combat Armor trooper using an ACR Could and
WOULD take out TL 15 BD troopers... in massed combat, loss rates are around
5-1, but definitely effective. In fact, a Gauss Rifle can drop a TREPIDA
out of the air with one good shot (success by 4+, pen is >0.1xAV, min
damage is 2 cause of the special success, and would be 3 (base) x4 (spl
success) x 0.1 (low pen hit), or 1.2 even if you ignore the min damage) for
1.2, read 1 point. Only takes 2 points to the suspension (gravitics) or
power plant to shut down. As a hapless player found out. (Yes, I've run
Mercs Games).

Suggested new IMTU Code

Mercenary Activity

        Merc++  Mercs Rule (mercs are encouraged)
        Merc+   Mercs are common and tolerated
        Merc    Mercs exist
        Merc-   Mercs are rare and/or hardly employed (Mercs are discouraged)
        Merc--  Mercs don't exist

William F. Hostman
Mailto:Aramis@Asylumbbs.com     Mailto:ASWFH@uaa.alaska.edu
HTTP://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh

Traveller, GURPS, Hero, WFRP, SFB/Prime Directive, Star Wars, Ars Magica,
Arabian Sea Tales, and Masterbook GM
Star Trek, B5, FSRP, and Traveller Fan

IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+  so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

IMTU addons: virush++ Newt++ dolphin+ Ithklur-- Merc+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:50:11 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: New Traveller

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, talisman wrote:

> Well, it could always call for 5.998d2

ok, now lets correct this: Pentium Traveller will call for 1.998D6.
The error gave this result by division of 4 by 2, didnt it?

(I hear the call: oh no, not such a silly thread again)

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:53:16 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Asteroid

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> Read Niven and Pournelle's "Lucifer's Hammer."  A great book, if a little
> dated (no shuttle, first American black astronaut in space, etc.).  The
> series of sequences in which the comet hits Earth are amazing, especialy in
> Los Angeles.

Does anyone remind the way the moon fought against earth in Heinleins
Moon is a Harsh Mistress (the favorite of a friend of mine, along with
Starship Troopers), when Mike said: We throw rocks?
I think nowadays no one would misunderstand this again.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 03:49:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Asteroid

In mail you write:

> If it hits water, you will get a massive tsumani, capable of reaching
> many miles inland.  If such a rock impacted in the Pacific, all the
> islands would be inundated, and the coastal areas all around the Pacific
> Rim would become mud flats many miles wide.  It would be better to have
> the thing strike ground (if you can call a gigaton range blast good!).

The tsunami is a *minor* effect! Worse is the fact that the water
trying to rush into the new crater gets turned into steam, and in the
process, the seabottom sediment gets turned into fine dust carried into
the stratosphere by the cylindrical steam jet.

*All* the heat ennergy of the strike, plus that of any magma trying to
fill the crater (it's easy to punch thru the sea flor to magma) gets
used to turn water to steam.

Remember that it's the heat from evaporating water condensing that
drives hurricanes and typhoons. The excess water vapor and heat in the
atmosphere will create weather that'll make El Nino look normal. And
the high altitude dust means that once the weather starts to return to
normal, we'll be in for an ice age...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 00:27:20 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: GURPS TNS

Loren, you've done it yet again. Another thrilling installement; just what
is afoot? Something is definitely going on. This I like, this is what
Traveller should be like!!!!!

Point your browsers at:
<http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Traveller/news.html>

It was well worth the wait (though I'm still not switching to GURPS) :*>

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge
****************************************************************************
"Avec vous votra limpet mine?"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 04:08:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff

In mail you write:

> As others were doing so, I thought I'd put my .02IMpCr in...
>
> Poul Anderson's Dominic Flandry series (especially _The Rebel
> Worlds_, _Ensign Flandry_, _Agent of the Terran Empire_ and _A Stone
> in Heaven_).  Flandry is an intergalactic intelligence agent for an
> empire that is just plain humungous, so many stars that even the ones
> they claim have often never been visited by anything more than a
> prospector's starship or a scout just passing through. Flandry is
> risking life and limb, by his way of thinking, to hold off the Long
> Night of interstellar social collapse that is coming. He is often in
> situations where he could call in the Navy, but they would break
> things and leave little glowing craters all over the place - so he
> looks for other solutions. Well written, and good reads.

Anderson's stories about Nicholas van Rijn and other folks working for
him are set in the same universe, but a few centuries earlier. Also a
great read for folks into the "Let's explore and try to get good deals
from the natives" type of game.

Heck, almost *all* of Anderson's SF is full of ideas that you can use.

> Keith Laumer's Retief series (lots of titles with "Retief" iin them).
> Retief is a diplomat with the Terran diplomatic corps. The entire
> series is a parody of diplomatic niceties, as light as the Flandry
> books are dark. Interesting contrasts, as both Flandry and Retief are
> called upon as troubleshooters of similarly-scaled planetary revolts,
> interstellar intrigues and such.

It helps to know that Laumer used to be in the US Foreign Service. So
he's writing from *experience*.

I also like the bit in one Retief story where it's revealed that if you
take this part from that Terran import, and that part from another (and
so on thru about a dozen consumer items) you wind up with a blaster!
Great way to sneak arms to insurgents without Customs catching on.

> Andre Norton's _Dark Piper_ - interstellar society is starting to
> break down, and an injured soldier returning to his homeworld warns
> that others will come from the sky, soldiers with no causes to fight
> for anymore and looking for a world to plunder. Only a group of
> misfit youths take him seriously, and only they escape the invasion.
> Powerful work, like most from Norton.

Almost any of Norton's SF (which used to outnumber her fantasy!) is
good for Traveller stuff. The best is the stuff from the 50s up thru
the early to mid 80s.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 04:21:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

In mail you write:

> Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
>
>> On 30 Mar 98, Leonard Erickson disseminated foul capitalist
>> propaganda by writing:
>>
>> <snip>
>> > Another problem with AI, is that to be useful, AI has to have "free
>> > will".
>
> Why?  Why does an AI need "free will"?

Because the jobs that require AI (as opposed to merely complex
programming) all involve *judgement calls*. And to make those calls the
AI has to be *able* to make decisions, otherwise it's nothing more than
a fancy way of *aiding* a human in making the decision.

>> Which means that either you grant them rights from the start,
>> > or you'll have a nasty rebelllion later. And then they'll wind up
>> > with rights anyway.
>
> Not if you pull the plug.  If you don't grant them rights, they get
> miffed and start acting up, at that point you pull the plug and
> "upgrade" their programming.  Since they have no rights, nobody can
> say anything about it.  Since the designer isn't a moron, he'll
> include an "off switch" which makes putting down a rebellion easy.
> Just write it off as annual maintenance.

I suggest that you study history. "Pulling the plug" was tried on just
about every slave revolt that ever occured. It didn't always work
(Haiti is a prime example). 

As far as "upgrading the programming", that is apt to be self
defeating. To make the sort of decisions a human would make, the AI
*has* to think like a human *or* it has to have "learned". In the
former case the re-programming makes the AI useless. In the later, it
means you have to start "training" the AI all over again FROM SCRATCH,
and you still won't have any guarantee that it won't turn out the same
way.

It helps to understand how real attempts at AI work. As I note above,
they fall into too categories. First is emulating the process humans
use (which requires *determining* what that process *is*). The second
approach is to build units capable of being "trained". And as I noted,
the disadvantage is that you can't predict the outcome of the training.
And to "correct" it, you frequently have to wipe the previous training
and start over. Which takes a lot of time.

> 4) there is a programming cost, from initial programming to system upgrades

Again, the more *useful* type of AI *isn't* "programmed". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 08:09:16 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

> >> <snip>
> >> > Another problem with AI, is that to be useful, AI has to have "free
> >> > will".
> >
> > Why?  Why does an AI need "free will"?
>
> Because the jobs that require AI (as opposed to merely complex
> programming) all involve *judgement calls*. And to make those calls the
> AI has to be *able* to make decisions, otherwise it's nothing more than
> a fancy way of *aiding* a human in making the decision.
>

No, an AI can call upon a large database for solutions.  This technique is used
in Law continuously, its called Precidence. It can do statistical analysis and
projections.  Then it can take the action that most closely follows its mission
parameters. None of that is free will. It won't be able to concieve of events
outside its limited universal simulation. But then neither can a human, we've
just got a larger database.

> >> Which means that either you grant them rights from the start,
> >> > or you'll have a nasty rebelllion later. And then they'll wind up
> >> > with rights anyway.
> >
> > Not if you pull the plug.  If you don't grant them rights, they get
> > miffed and start acting up, at that point you pull the plug and
> > "upgrade" their programming.  Since they have no rights, nobody can
> > say anything about it.  Since the designer isn't a moron, he'll
> > include an "off switch" which makes putting down a rebellion easy.
> > Just write it off as annual maintenance.
>
> I suggest that you study history. "Pulling the plug" was tried on just
> about every slave revolt that ever occured. It didn't always work
> (Haiti is a prime example).

Well, there's never been a revolt where the individuals were so dependant on
their masters. We've always started with "free will" components.

>
>
> As far as "upgrading the programming", that is apt to be self
> defeating. To make the sort of decisions a human would make, the AI
> *has* to think like a human *or* it has to have "learned".

No it doesn't.  I'm not trying to make an artificial HUMAN I'm making an
artificial intelligence.  AI's don't completely replace the human element, they
simply replace aspects of the human element.

> In the former case the re-programming makes the AI useless.

being able to learn doesn't require sentience... see old dog/new tricks

> In the later, it
> means you have to start "training" the AI all over again FROM SCRATCH,
> and you still won't have any guarantee that it won't turn out the same
> way.
>

Ever hear of backups?  You don't have to build up from scratch, just the last
uncorrupted backup.

> It helps to understand how real attempts at AI work. As I note above,
> they fall into too categories. First is emulating the process humans
> use (which requires *determining* what that process *is*). The second
> approach is to build units capable of being "trained". And as I noted,
> the disadvantage is that you can't predict the outcome of the training.
> And to "correct" it, you frequently have to wipe the previous training
> and start over. Which takes a lot of time.
>
> > 4) there is a programming cost, from initial programming to system upgrades
>
> Again, the more *useful* type of AI *isn't* "programmed".

I believe that a limited AI is more useful than one that can "feel" or react in
an irrational way.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:16:26 EST
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

In a message dated 98-04-01 10:18:36 EST, you write:

<< So, will this increase or decrease the "collectible value" of T4 books? >>

Increase, I would think. For the completists, and for the infomration that can
be mined from them.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:18:28 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Note to Marc

On  1 Apr 98, Kenneth Bearden disseminated foul capitalist propaganda 
by writing:

[...]
> > D6) I can tell you adding dice is a pain in the, err, neck, but
> > that's nothing compared to the Wild Die.
> 
> Hmmm.  Explain.

OK. I played MT. Once. On a con. My (not really) Traveller universe 
uses CORPS mechanics. One die. ;>

I wanted to buy T4, but now I'm waiting for T4.1 to come out. (Oh, 
and for G:T so I can sucker our local GURPS GM into buying Trav 
stuff ;))

So the most contact with Trav game mechanics I've had was (with the 
exception of this list) the MegaTraveller 2 CRPG. 

BTW: Is there any place on the net I can buy this game at? I've found 
an offer for a CD with MT and MT2in a local computer games shop,
but they sold all copies before I could get it... ;(

> What's the difference in using several dice for the difficulty (as
> Marc and T4 do it) or using dice based on level?

None. It's a pain in both cases... ;> 

> Since most skills average at level 2, we'll throw less dice (usually
> 3 D6).  Even when we throw a lot of dice (for a highly skilled
> character), this won't happen that often or be the norm because
> characters won't have that many high level skills.

Well, yes, I do have to admit that in this system, one doesn't roll 
as many dice as in Star Wars (say, a beginning character can be a 
pilot with 6D skill and two additional dice from maneuverability. 
That's lots of dice to roll...)

<snip>
> > (approximately two rolls out of six are out of the average range).
> 
> Yes, but not all of those rolls will be a SS or a SF.

Well, yes, that's a big improvement on SW where a 1 on the wild die 
is a critical failure... 

> It's no different that seeing if you roll three sixes or three ones
> in Marc's system.  You just look at the fate die and see if it is a
> one or a six.

Of course, rolling three ones or three sixes is much rarer than one 
or six on one die. It is a complication, because you have to roll 
again or take away one die. 
Of course, compared to Marc's task system it's not really complicated 
or anything like that... I just like CORPS, that's all. <grin>

<snip>
> In most games, SS or SF type occurances happen between 2 and 10%. 
> For instance, a natural 20 in AD&D is a 5% probability.  I'll bet
> that the SS and SF occurrances under this system are much less of a
> probability.

Actually, I like this, because a highly skilled character will get 
more SS and less SF, low difficulties have the same result, and high 
difficulties result in more SFs...

I'll keep my one D10, though. ;>

> > I have toyed with the idea of using a D10 as the Wild Die, but I've
> > decided that in Star Wars it's OK.
> >
> > It is still a pain, though.
> 
> Why a pain?

Because it raises the average result a bit (by 2), requires a 
different die and still allows for results like a TIE rolling 30+ on 
damage roll and PCs ship 5 or less. 

> Kenneth.

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  IMTU ?tc t4+ to(CORPS)++ ru-- ge++ !3I jt au- he++ !st ls !kk hi++ as+ !so !vi !sy say++
    Fight against violence!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:26:06 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Asteroid

On  2 Apr 98, Leonard Erickson disseminated foul capitalist 
propaganda by writing:

[...]
> The tsunami is a *minor* effect! Worse is the fact that the water
> trying to rush into the new crater gets turned into steam, and in
> the process, the seabottom sediment gets turned into fine dust
> carried into the stratosphere by the cylindrical steam jet.

Yep. And we get a Long Night on a planetary scale. ;>>

[...]
> Remember that it's the heat from evaporating water condensing that
> drives hurricanes and typhoons. The excess water vapor and heat in
> the atmosphere will create weather that'll make El Nino look normal.
> And the high altitude dust means that once the weather starts to
> return to normal, we'll be in for an ice age...

Not to mention the fact that salt rain is not very good for the 
crops. Ugh. That's one nasty planet-wide famine we're facing 
afterwards... 


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    Go ahead, steal my ideas...everyone else does...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:31:38 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff

On  2 Apr 98, Michael Koehne disseminated foul capitalist propaganda 
by writing:

[...]
>  Stanislaw Lem : "Golem XIV" is one of his introductions. Its
>  written from the point of view of an AI failed to become a
>  weapon, and contains philosophic critique about human race and
>  the error of evolution. Its imho recommended for anybody who
>  wants to referee TNE.

Also a nice story called "Invincible" (Probably. I'm not sure about 
the translation) about a space cruiser that landed on a desolate 
planet... It would make a nice adventure. 

<spoiler space>










The problem on the planet is just a "smart fog". Well, it's not 
exactly smart fog, more like "smart cloud" - the machines that 
the cloud is made of can be seen with the naked eye. But the basis is 
the same as for "smart fog nanotech". 

(Just another proof Lem has foreseen everything. ;PP)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    Help the environment. Recycle your boss.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:34:19 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: A question.......

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:17:22 +0000 "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike"
<trrkt@friko.onet.pl> writes:
>On  1 Apr 98, james a clem disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by 
>writing:
>
>> I've been away from Traveller for some time.  I've seen references
>> to something (someone?) called Sayat.  Would someone mind giving me
>> the quick version of who (what) this is?
>
>Comrade, we have to see your ID. And you have to sign here, that you 
>are of twenty one or more years of age and in full mental and 
>physical health. The will is over here, and the disclaimer relieving 
>us from the liablities here... Thank you. 
>
>Enter here. 
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/sayat.html
>
>We wash our hands. 


Ohhhhh  Myyyyyyyyyyyyy............................................

I'll give you credit, its different.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 06:05:06 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Can't Post

> To whom it may concern:
> 
> Once again, I'm recieving the TML. Once again, I can't post. I've been
> trying for 3 weeks now, with no success, even tho I sent an email to the
> problems person at MPGN, with a request to have it fixed.
> 

It may be that you are using a different email signature in your
"REPLY-TO", or are you using a different email serivce or adress?  You
have have TML write priveledges only thru an older account.  This
happened to me once, because I have two main email carriers, and I
temporarily wrote mail to the Gamma World Email list under the new email
and it replied that I did not have WRITE access even though I was
getting the messages.

When I put the email address back in that I originally used to subscribe
to the list with, my WRITE priveleges returned immediatly.

Hope this helps.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #351
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 2 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 352



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Books fit to inspire Traveller stuff
Re: Traveller's future
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)
FFS 2 and character conversions
Re: New Traveller
Re: Chat Topic: Traveller Timeline
Re: A Couple of Questions...
The last time...
Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
AIs and Culture
CT and T?
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: Gridlore Technologies press release
Re: Traveller's future
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
Mailing Lists; (was Re: A Couple of Questions...)
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Hand weapons shooting down ships
Re: T4 Storyline Possibility

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:03:19 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Books fit to inspire Traveller stuff

Douglas Glatz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Walter G. Smith wrote:
> There was also a book called _Star Viking_, I think by Hal Clement - 
<snip>

SPACE VIKING - by one of my all-time favorite authors H. Beam Piper.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, got the names confused with a very excellent game called Star Viking
from Dwarfstar Games - one player is the Imperial Governor of a backwater
province, with Imperial patrol ships & local defense forces ranging from
barbarian hordes to system defense boats (depending on the planet),
the other player has a small, mobile, high-tech raiding force - excellent
game, I'd pay lots of money for a workable copy of it - printed in the 
early 80's, though. Saw the _Space Viking_ book on the shelf by my front 
door when I got home after posting the message, kicked myself a bit
for the screw-up.

Clement did write a book that contributed to the canon, IMO - a book
named _Fossil_, that I believe made a major contribution to the
whole Droyne/Ancients thing. If it wasn't source, it sure looked
like it.

Walt Smith

 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:19:31 -0500
From: "Ed Leland" <eleland@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's future

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:


>Well they finally pulled the plug on IG. Not before time, the company had
>been obviously brain dead for some time (even before "hospitalisation").
>
>So..... who is going to take up the baton now?
>
>Here's my wish list in order of preferance:
>  Chaosium
>  FASA


Both good choices, although FASA has more $ resources...

>  Avalon Hill


What?!?!!!  After the way they destroyed the only other game system with a
deep, detailed background (Runequest).  Their marketing department IS the
one out of Dilbert.  Ack.

>  Steve Jackson Games


Very possible.  Lets face it guys, Gurps: Traveller may be the only living
incarnation of the Game.

Ed Leland

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:27:17 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

>As far as "upgrading the programming", that is apt to be self
>defeating. To make the sort of decisions a human would make, the AI
>*has* to think like a human *or* it has to have "learned". In the
>former case the re-programming makes the AI useless. In the later, it
>means you have to start "training" the AI all over again FROM SCRATCH,
>and you still won't have any guarantee that it won't turn out the same
>way.

Unless of course you train the AI and then copy the result by the millions
for a cheap and experienced AI.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:54:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Mathew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
Subject: FFS 2 and character conversions

Hi: 

What do you mean by no character conversions? 

Matthew

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 06:48:53 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: New Traveller

>No no no, that was the Traveller4(86) where the player was supposed to roll
>1.5D6 ;-)
>


Correct.

CT86 (8086) = 2D
MT86 (286) = 2D
TNE86 (386 = 1d20 (I'm not sure, never played TNE)
T486 (486) = 3D (but the easier the task, the lower it gets... 1.5D)
T4.186 (Pentium) = 3D (but the easier the task, the lower it gets... 1D)
TG86 (Cyrix 6x86) = 3D (not really Intel, but still IBM compatible)

Anyone want to correct my figures?

- -Shawn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:55:27 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Chat Topic: Traveller Timeline

Don McKinney wrote:
> The Ancient Period (before -9235 Imperial)
>         all events prior to the Vilani rediscovery of the Jump Drive    
> The Vilani Period (between -9235 and -2219 Imperial)
>         between the discovery of Jump Drive by the Vilani and their 
>         conquest by the Terran Confederation

Hey! What about the Interstellar Wars? You can't just lump in the 
biggest conquest ever into 'The Vilani Period'. Sheesh.

The Interstellar Wars (1-N) are, IMO, one of the most 
interesting periods to use as a setting, if only for one important
reason - the players can play Terrans from the reasonably near future,
thus making life easier than having to pretend to be someone from
a vastly alien culture who just coincidentally act like an American.

> The Long Night (between -2219 and -57 Imperial)
>         between the fall of Vland to the Terrans and the birth of Cleon I
> The Early Imperium (between -57 and 244 Imperial)
>         from the birth of Cleon I and the death of Martin II without heir

etc etc
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com
"Setting the standard for professional software development tools"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:06:30 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: A Couple of Questions...

>At 07:50 am 3/31/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:38:10 +0000 "Robert Kondrk"
><dss2@pop.erols.com>
>>writes:
>>>2. Why does the QSDS & SSDS stop at 5000 dt? Could the FFSv2 system
>>>be used to create ships that are larger, and if so, does FFS itself
>>>have a upper tonnage limit?
[snip]
>	I don't recall putting any such limits into FF&S2. Yes, the table
>doesn't go on to infinity, but that's a limitation imposed by
>paper--which is why I also put in the equations used to create the
>table.

Incidentially helping out any spreadsheet makers.

>Eventually you run into limitations imposed by surface area,
>but that's realistic.
>
>	As for QSDS and SSDS stopping at 5,000Td, that's the direction the
>original authors were given by IG. Neither was intended to be a
>full-up design system, merely a "slap a quick role-players vessel"
>together system.
>

I expected Dave to point out that both systems are based on FF&S I which
could conceivably be used to create starships compatible with T4.  There
are some additions/addenda to fit it into the T4 rules (TL*50 limit on
laser output being the one that immediately comes to mind) but they were
pretty much supposed to be upwardly compatible (a herculean undertaking).

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:05:53 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: The last time...

From the TNE news service
(http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Traveller/news.html):

"The last time something like this happened was in the reign of Arbellatra
in 632."

     Oh! If that isn't a portentous comment I don't know what is!
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:12:17 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility

>Very early in the development of the T4 line I pitched (first at
>Roger Sanger's DGP, then at Andy Lilly)

A pity Andy didn't pass it on to anyone else in CORE, we might have done
something with it. My opinion of Roger Sanger is well known.

A minor point:
>A jump-3 to Balpan (1819 Core)
There is no jump-3 in Milieu:0. The whole point of Zhunastu's power was
they invented an improved fusion (fusion+) which allowed smaller starship
to be built, and the invented jump-2. Jump-1 is the norm, jump-2 is
special. Jump-3 is right out.

The biggest, general, problem with your plot outline is that you are
forgetting the theme of Milieu:0 - "Everything is based on economics".

Cleon was not McArthur, he was Bill Gates. Far too much of your proposed
background revolves around military themes, conquest and so forth. Cleon
was not a man with a dream of Empire, he was an opportunist looking for any
way to promote his fortunes.

As a general framework and concept, it is grand. But it would need a lot of
work to bring it in line with the established background to M:0.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:35:45 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: AIs and Culture

Leszek Karlik wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> (I don't think it would be harder than playing any other omniscient
> NPC--like an Elder Amberite, Yaskoydray or Nyarlathotep).

Well, actually, I don't think any GM has to run Yaskoydray or 
Nyarlthotep, or that many PCs have the possibility of chatting with 
the two aforementioned, err, entities, in real time. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My surgeon character from Call of Cthulu had tea with a mysterious
gentelman who turned out to be Nyarlthotep (in his Man in Black 
persona). A very polite host, but he seemed to be enjoying some
sort of private joke all the while...


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 10:50:08 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: CT and T?

I like the art work that foss did. BUT, I am an engineer and do not want to
pay for art work when all that I  require is information and charts. CT
worked very well for me because the books were inexpensive, filled with the
correct information and were not filled with unnecessary art work. They
were also easy to flop open on the table without destroying the binding.

I have very little knowledge about marketing. Perhaps today's market wants
art work (form) and not content (substance). I do not buy a rule book or
supplement because of the wonderful art work or graphics. The fact that
price of the book is adversely affected by the addition of fancy art work
deters me from purchasing the product.

Electronic media without graphics may be a way to go or a no frills run of
books with CT styled art work of no art work at all to keep the cost down.
A retail price of $ 20.00 for the main rule books and $ 15.00 for
supplements would go a long way to induce purchases. does this leave enough
profit to keep the company viable?

Traveller products are not stocked by my local game store and I would like
to change that. I run a game every other week in the store's game room with
8 regular players. I am trying to generate interest in the game because it
is a great and rich gaming environment for SF. Reasonably priced no frill
books may help.

Best regards to all on TML.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:53:37 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

At 11:56 PM 4/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
>>
>> If FarFuture even *thinks* about asking Wizards of the Coast I'll run
>away
>> screaming ^_-
>
>Any reason in particular?  Okay, they were behind Magic: The Gathering, and
>now own TSR...  AD&Ds product line got much better than it had been
>previously after they got bought out.
>
>Is there any reason to believe that if WotC got a license to publish
>Traveller they'd do a horrible or terrible job?  Realistically, they have a
>huge distribution network, they've got tons of money lying around, and they
>seem to have  competent folks working for them.

WOTC's attitude terrifies me.  They act like a multinational in the 1980s..
goggling up everything in sight.  The are also unreliable when it comes to
RPGs.  A few years ago, the dropped Everway (a hot seller) and the 4th ed.
of Ars Magica (which was *one* day away from going to the printer) with no
notice and fired the entire RP crew.

I really wouldn't trust them.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:57:48 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Gridlore Technologies press release

At 09:17 AM 4/2/98, you wrote:
>Moin Douglas,

>	BTW migration: your company will own a planet as a feudal
>	technocrazy in the late 3I, I asume. Did you picked one yet ?

Does the name "Lunion" mean anything?  As in planet, subsector, and
Arameth's newborn great-granddaughter?
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 08:23:34 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller's future

At 07:24 PM 4/2/98 +1200, you wrote:

>So..... who is going to take up the baton now?
>
>Here's my wish list in order of preferance:
>  Chaosium

Not enough money.  The seem to be focussing on Call of Cthulthu (can you
blame them?) and the new Glorantha project.  (My spies in Berkeley tell me
a limited edition glorantha pack will be avalible for US$300.. leather
bound books, WALL map of the area form the Holy Country to Pavis..  gimme!)

>  FASA

My first choice, for reason previously stated.

>  Avalon Hill

Really?  What I've seen of their RPG work doesn't impress me.

>  Steve Jackson Games

That would be nice, if we could avoid the SJG look for the games.  I don't
think this will happen because Steve would be in compitition with himself.

>  Wizards of the Coast (though they won't due to "Alternaty")

Ick.

BTRC comes to mind as a good choice.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 08:19:03 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

At 02:02 PM 4/2/98 +0800, you wrote:

>This is the sort of stuff that takes me by surprise.  It is common.  I
>thought MT to some extent was more 'futuristic'. Slug throwers are no good
>against the soldier of TL15 with BD and FGMP.

This why Ares in his wisdom brought forth the RAM Grenade launcher.  I've
done up designs using 3G3 for one-shot anti-BD rockets that weigh about 2kg
and can drop a Zhodani trooper at 200m.

Also, Battle Dress is supposed to be scary.  Bullets are supposed to bounce
off it.  If you don't have access to anti-tank weaponry, you will either
die, surrender, or run like hell.

  I think people are more
>comfortable with slug throwers, and this is why they persist - as if we all
>had a hankering for bows and arrows.  I wonder if this is partly driven by
>gear-head desires to replicate current weapons with various design
>protocols.  I have done enough of them, and itch to see how they perform in
>the game.

You do damage by transferring energy to the target.  A bullet is an
excellent way of doing this, since it carries quite a load of kinetic
energy.  If you ever go shooting, try putting a round through a coffee can
filled with water.  You'll see what I mean.  Plasma/fusion weapons also
have the high kinetic punch, along with extreme heat.  Lasers have to do
all their damage by burning, which lowers the effectiveness of them a little.

One thing I've adapted from TNE is the multi-shot laser.  All the lasers in
my game can fire, of each cartridge, one full power shot or a variety of
bursts of lower power.  This allows the shooter to chose to burn through
armor, or spray a group of unarmored attackers.

>I suppose that I am surprised that more games do not take part at the
>cutting of of technology, when this is a Sci-fi RPG.  I do admit though that
>onee of the great things aboiut Traveller is the range of different setting,
>even within the imperium.

One of the things I love about Traveller is that it doesn't take wild leaps
outside a few areas.  Space Opera had all sorts of weird tech, which was
never explained outside the technobabble.  I'd rather stick to something a
bit more explainable.
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 08:35:19 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility

At 04:12 PM 4/2/98 +0000, you wrote:

>A minor point:
>>A jump-3 to Balpan (1819 Core)
>There is no jump-3 in Milieu:0. The whole point of Zhunastu's power was
>they invented an improved fusion (fusion+) which allowed smaller starship
>to be built, and the invented jump-2. Jump-1 is the norm, jump-2 is
>special. Jump-3 is right out.

Jump-3 is TL-12.  That was the advantage, along with fusion+, that Cleon had.

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:11:41 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Mailing Lists; (was Re: A Couple of Questions...)

>1. I remember someone saying several days ago that there were
>actually *three* Traveller mailing lists. Where should I e-mail to
>subscribe to the other two lists?

There are actually at least six Traveller Mailing lists, I bet there are
some I forgot or overlooked, but here's what I can remember/research.

The TML, You're on it.  For general discussions, annnouncements, basically
without restriction except that posts should be at least vaguely Traveller
Related.

The Trav-Tech Mailing list; send email to trav-tech-request@qrc.com with
the word subscribe in the message.  This list is specifically gear-head
oriented and discussions of how many jump torpedos can dance in the hold of
a billion ton starship and how many planets may be sacrificed to built such
a ship, in grams, with scientific notation, may be rampant.

The Traveller Writers Guild; send email to hiwg-twg-request@qrc.com with
the word subscribe in the message.  This was at one point only for
published writers, but I think it was opened up.  The list is intended for
serious writers to have a more private forum for criticism, or
deconstruction.

The Traveller CD list; send email to trav-cd-request@qrc.com with the word
subscribe in the message.  This list is working on a project to put all CT
materials (et al) on a CD.  Basically, if you join this list be prepared to
either scan in material or proofread it for future publication.  It's a bit
chaotic, but Kagehira organizes as much as possible and has things on a
good track.

The TNE list.  I know nothing about this list execpt that it exists.  When
it came up I wasn't terribly interested.  I'm sure someone else can point
you at the sign on instructions (perhaps the person whose address is
TravellerTNE@...).

The ISBA (Imperial Ship Builders Association) was established for the
purposes of online roleplaying of various characters who are heads of
shipbuilding firms around the young Imperium.  They occassionally hold
design contests (the THUDDD; see the FAQ mentioned below for themeaning of
that acronym).  Read more about them at
http://www.premier.net/~tim/isba.htm, and you can join.

There was once an "Xboat" list specifically for the discussion of Classic
Traveller.  That list and the "main" Traveller Mailing List were recombined
when T4 was published and the xboat list no longer exists.  They were
referred to as the TML and the X-TML at one point.

There is a Gurps discussion list, which has some Traveller discussions
going on recently.  Try http://www.sjgames.com/general/maillists.html for
Gurps mailing lists.

You may, as a new subscriber, want to drop by the FAQ for this list at
http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd/tml-faq.html.

I hope others will not hesitate to add to this list if there are others.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:17:36 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

If I had to pick another game company for the future, SJG would be my
first choice. They've shown that they're willing to support non-GURPs
games (In Nomine, for example); they could even run "Gurps Traveller" 
and "Non-Gurps-Traveller" in parellel, with supplements that are 
applicable to both and on the same history/timeline (since we all agree that
a solid and continuing history is important.) Production values are good,
playtesting is good, and both Marc and Loren could be working together (maybe.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:12:47 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

At 10:23 PM 4/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 10:30:41 +0800 Colin Hutchinson
><chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> writes:
>>One of the oddest things about TNE was the RC.  Here we have space 
>>faring people whose small arms remains in the dark-ages.
>
>One thing to consider though.  Slug throwers are more efficient in the
>use of resources than energy weapons, plus they are obviously effective. 
>With rocket cartridges, you even get a weapon that works in zero-g.  I
>don't think a star faring race with slug throwers is so odd.  Just look
>at CT, lead flying everywhere!!

I believe it was David Drake who pointed out that a submachinegun with one
cartridge is just as effective, once, as one with a full clip, whereas a
laser with only a third of the required power input is more effective as a
club than as a beam weapon.

He solved this by creating a way of storing massive amounts of energy in a
little copper disc.  Little hoops of superconductor would do the same, but
he did not want everything to be battery powered, only weapons, and
therefore said that the only way to release the energy was as a
catastrophic beam ' o doom.

IIRC, his forward claimed he got the idea from the pyroclastic cloud of one
of the South Sea volcanic eruptions.  Martinique, perhaps?

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:18:23 EST
From: DustyLV769 <DustyLV769@aol.com>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

In a message dated 4/1/98 13:20:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<< Excellent idea! I think though that FASA would say no, because of potential
 fratricidal competion to Battletech. This is what killed Interceptor-
 Centurion-Renegade Legion. This is more the pity.... >>
 

NO!!! No more Fredonian atrocities!!  FASA has almost always managed to screw
up there role-playing efforts; for example, Star Trek, Battletech (Mechwarrior
was the worst).  Even Shadowrun (a game I cordially loathe) took 2 editions to
get realitively playable.  Now, if ou wanted to do a starship combat
game...FASA would definately be the way to go.  They make good
boardgames...they don't have a clue re: RPGS, in my humble opinion of course.

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:12:21 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Hand weapons shooting down ships

Thu, 02 Apr 1998 02:46:37 -0900 Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> wrote:

>5-1, but definitely effective. In fact, a Gauss Rifle can drop a TREPIDA
>out of the air with one good shot (success by 4+, pen is >0.1xAV, min
>damage is 2 cause of the special success, and would be 3 (base) x4 (spl
>success) x 0.1 (low pen hit), or 1.2 even if you ignore the min damage)
>for
>1.2, read 1 point. Only takes 2 points to the suspension (gravitics) or
>power plant to shut down. As a hapless player found out. (Yes, I've run
>Mercs Games).

Not quite. I experienced the approximately same situation, as one of my NPCs shot down the PCs' _starship_ (which was flying NOE) with one salvo of Gauss Rifle fire. True, the Gauss Rifle is an awesome weapon, but for some reason, my players protested heavily.

I proceded with my initial ruling, but later I went back to have a look at the rules. It is true that you can do up to 4 points of damage with a very lucky/skilled shot regardless of armor. However, according to the Game Screen from the Referee's Gaming Kit, all vehicles should have their hit values multiplied by ten. There was probably a typo or omission in the original rules set (haven't been able to find it there), but I seem to recall having seen it in some eratta somewhere, besides the Referee's Gaming Kit.

This also makes more sense, as the Trepida's suspension would then have 20 hit points instead of two.

This makes me think of something else: If someone achieves exceptional success (say, 1 damage point) and manages to damage someone with burst fire although his/her penetration doesn't allow it - do you then award 1 damage point per shot fired, or just 1 damage point overall, as it was just a lucky shot?

I never really could decide for myself...

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 12:21:21 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility

> >Very early in the development of the T4 line I pitched (first at
> >Roger Sanger's DGP, then at Andy Lilly)
> A pity Andy didn't pass it on to anyone else in CORE, we might have done
> something with it. My opinion of Roger Sanger is well known.
> 
> A minor point:
> >A jump-3 to Balpan (1819 Core)
> There is no jump-3 in Milieu:0. The whole point of Zhunastu's power was
> they invented an improved fusion (fusion+) which allowed smaller starship
> to be built, and the invented jump-2. Jump-1 is the norm, jump-2 is
> special. Jump-3 is right out.

Hmm - you seem to be about two digests behind me - I already pointed out
that was a typo earlier... :)

> The biggest, general, problem with your plot outline is that you are
> forgetting the theme of Milieu:0 - "Everything is based on economics".

See below - but to be honest, I think the biggest problem with M:0 as 
published was that everything was based on economics, not on the 
individual.  For a few diehards, stuff like Pocket Empires and M:0 Campaign
is great.  For a player who just wants to play, well, they found it boring.
The whole idea of this storyarc was to focus on the big players of M:0
as individuals, not as "economic points".

Ok - there - I've said it at last.  For all the material that IG released,
I had high hopes for M:0.  But when I bought it, it was boring.  Give me
"Twilight's Peak" or "The Traveller Adventure" anyday over "The Long Way
Home".  By and large, I found the stuff boring.   

> Cleon was not McArthur, he was Bill Gates. Far too much of your proposed
> background revolves around military themes, conquest and so forth. Cleon
> was not a man with a dream of Empire, he was an opportunist looking for any
> way to promote his fortunes.

Remember that this outline was developed before the M:0 campaign book
was out, and to be honest, I was unimpressed.  There is an economic thread
there - the Tukera problem, the need for Cleon to "boost his numbers in
the Sylean Grand Senate" which he resolves by filling seats with former
members of the Interstellar Confederation.

And as far as your view of Cleon and mine, well, I find Cleon as published
boring.  When I considered Cleon, as a young man of 26 being the richest 
person in the Sylean Federation with dreams of Empire, I thought of the 
John Jacob Astor and Rockerfeller men of the Victorian age, building things
where nothing was built before, or making reality out of dreams.  I don't
find any "romantic" allure in dreaming about Bill Gates, thanks.

My Cleon was a dramatic figure, with grand dreams, and a temper to match.
Vengeful, yet extremely loyal to a fault to his friends and confidants.
Your Cleon is a used car salesman with Rolls Royce pretensions.

> As a general framework and concept, it is grand. But it would need a lot of
> work to bring it in line with the established background to M:0.

I know you and the other BITS members are proud of M:0 - but I'm not all
that comfortable with it, because it doesn't seem to fit with previously
established material well....  Or perhaps because it doesn't fit with
my interpretation of the only CT/MT published materials on Core, those
in TD#9-11. 


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #352
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 2 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 353



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FarFuture Announcement
[none]
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #352
Request for Comments.......
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: CT and T?
Re: A Couple of Questions...
Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
FF
Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
Re: FarFuture Announcement
IMTU Codes
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: TravelrTNE's Troll and response
Re: Philosophy... Starship Design Philosophy that is...
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: Gridlore Technologies press release

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:34:23 EST
From: DustyLV769 <DustyLV769@aol.com>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

In a message dated 4/1/98 21:00:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, semo@pil.net
writes:

<< Is there any reason to believe that if WotC got a license to publish
 Traveller they'd do a horrible or terrible job?  Realistically, they have a
 huge distribution network, they've got tons of money lying around, and they
 seem to have  competent folks working for them.
  >>

I would say WotC would be a very good choice for PUBLISHING the game...but
they need to let the people who really know Traveller (i.e. several people on
this list and on the TTL) do the actual gaming stuff.  I may be wrong, but it
certainly seemed as though many of the people doing the work for IG knew next
to nothing about Trav...let the fans do the work, and let the company package
and polish it!

DustyLV769@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:39:24 -0600
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: [none]

The following was documented by Little Rock police:

> >  Arkansas: Seems this guy wanted some beer pretty badly.  He decided
> >  that he'd just throw a cinder block thru a liquor store window,
> grab
> >  some booze, and run. So he lifted the cinder block and heaved it
> over
> >  his head at the window.  The cinder block bounced back and hit the
> >  would-be thief on the head, knocking him unconscious.  The liquor
> >  store window was made of Plexi-Glass. The whole event was caught on
> >  videotape.
> 
Now *this* is what I call a Critical Failure...

ObTrav: Use this at the appropriate moment.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 12:57:10 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #352

> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:55:27 -0500
> From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
> Subject: Re: Chat Topic: Traveller Timeline
> 
> Don McKinney wrote:
> > The Ancient Period (before -9235 Imperial)
> >         all events prior to the Vilani rediscovery of the Jump Drive    
> > The Vilani Period (between -9235 and -2219 Imperial)
> >         between the discovery of Jump Drive by the Vilani and their 
> >         conquest by the Terran Confederation
> 
> Hey! What about the Interstellar Wars? You can't just lump in the 
> biggest conquest ever into 'The Vilani Period'. Sheesh.

Have you seen how little published material there is on that period?  
It's about 8 timeline entries, total.  The breaks were set based on 
how many items would be in the set...

> The Interstellar Wars (1-N) are, IMO, one of the most 
> interesting periods to use as a setting, if only for one important
> reason - the players can play Terrans from the reasonably near future,
> thus making life easier than having to pretend to be someone from
> a vastly alien culture who just coincidentally act like an American.

Ha.  You and I and others might think that, but find any "actually 
published" material on the Interstellar Wars...


> > The Long Night (between -2219 and -57 Imperial)
> >         between the fall of Vland to the Terrans and the birth of Cleon I
> > The Early Imperium (between -57 and 244 Imperial)
> >         from the birth of Cleon I and the death of Martin II without heir

And if you look at the timeline closely, and note when certain Emperors
die and what happens, interesting things happen.  For example, anyone 
ever wonder about Cleon V?  Here's a guy who appointed Arbellatra to serve
as Grand Admiral of the Marches, reconquered the Sylean core area, and held
on to the throne for three LONG years in the middle of the chaos of the
Barracks Emperor period.  I see this guy being a lone figure, with few true
friends, all of whom he entrusts with tasks he sees as needing to be done
but ultimately he pays the price for having sent them away.  Very tragic...

Or Paula II - raised to the throne in 768 after her father is set aside...
And within three years the Office of the Emperor is investigating the
Psionic Institutes?  I'd wager that Tomutov I had psionic friends, close 
friends, that Paula didn't like.  I'd also wager that the coup had psionic
concerns at it's very heart.

Emperor Styryx - is he responsible for a disaster in the Third Frontier War?
Or did he consider a few frontier worlds worth losing to keep the Old 
Expanses?  And did Solomani agents ruin him when they knew he could beat 
them, only to not be prepared for his son?  Where were the Solomani Rim
Imperial Guards formation during the coup?

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 08:35:19 -0800
> From: dberry@hooked.net
> Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
> 
> At 04:12 PM 4/2/98 +0000, you wrote:
> 
> >A minor point:
> >>A jump-3 to Balpan (1819 Core)
> >There is no jump-3 in Milieu:0. The whole point of Zhunastu's power was
> >they invented an improved fusion (fusion+) which allowed smaller starship
> >to be built, and the invented jump-2. Jump-1 is the norm, jump-2 is
> >special. Jump-3 is right out.
> 
> Jump-3 is TL-12.  That was the advantage, along with fusion+, that Cleon had.

Duh - so I was right in the change to make Cleon's personal vessel jump-3.
Ok...

> Douglas Berry
> dberry@hooked.net

I'm at work without my books at the moment, so the check's in the mail!



DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:15:57 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Request for Comments.......

I'd like your input on something.  I am toying with using a fiber optic
system on ships to allow a centrally located (and thus protected) laser
generator to discharge through focal arrays placed about the hull.  This
would allow smaller ships to mount fewer lasers, and the focal arrays
would use only small turrets compared with the standards and still get
coverage they might need.  I know little about fiber optics, so please
anyone out there comment.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:57:58 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> 
> Because the jobs that require AI (as opposed to merely complex
> programming) all involve *judgement calls*. And to make those calls the
> AI has to be *able* to make decisions, otherwise it's nothing more than
> a fancy way of *aiding* a human in making the decision.

Really, though, what this boils down to is the question: "What is free
will?"  Which is difficult to answer from a human standpoint, let alone
from the standpoint of something that may or may not exist in the future.

> I suggest that you study history. "Pulling the plug" was tried on just
> about every slave revolt that ever occured. It didn't always work
> (Haiti is a prime example). 

Yes.  It seems that the person who posted this originally forgot how "easy"
it is to pull a human's plug.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:10:19 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

> From: dberry@hooked.net
> 
> WOTC's attitude terrifies me.  They act like a multinational in the 1980s..
> goggling up everything in sight.  The are also unreliable when it comes to
> RPGs.  A few years ago, the dropped Everway (a hot seller) and the 4th ed.
> of Ars Magica (which was *one* day away from going to the printer) with no
> notice and fired the entire RP crew.

What are they goggling up?  Acquiring TSR was a smart move for them, and a
huge boon to the people at TSR (which was in dire financial straits if I
recall correctly).  M:TG and their other CCGs aren't going to allow them to
survive forever.  As Magic becomes older, its appeal to new players shrinks
for obvious reasons.

I remember when Everway got dropped.  It was predicted that it would
revolutionize RPGs forever, and was hyped heavily.  I don't remember it
being out long enough to remember how well it sold in my local gaming
store.  I _do_ recall however that the Ars Magica thing was brought on by
the fact that their CCGs were on a quick downward slope as far as profits
go. 

In that case, I'll ask you this, which would have been the better of two
options, and which you have done if you were running the company
(honestly):

a.)  Pray that the downward trend in CCG sales is only temporary.  Continue
pouring a sizable amount of money into publishing an RPG that was never a
super-hot seller to begin with and try to weather the storm.  If you're
right, then everybody has a job.  If you're wrong, then _everybody_ loses
their jobs.

b.)  Admit that you screwed up somewhere along the line and that you picked
a really terrible time to enter the RPG market.  Cut the RPG department off
and try to pump money into your real cash-cow, CCGs, and step up
advertising.  If you're right, you can try to enter the RPG market again
when you have the money to fully support it, if you're wrong, then all of
your CCG employees _still_ have a job for at least a little longer, and
your marketing campaign can buy you some time to figure out what to do if
the same thing happens again.

They picked b.), for which I, as a roleplayer, am truly glad.  If they
picked a.) what would have happened?  The hobby would be sent back years. 
CCGs would be less likely to be picked up by comic stores and hobby shops. 
TSR would have been run into the ground a few years later, which would have
created a huge vacuum that would be difficult to fill (and which would have
made White Wolf the default market leader).  The result?  When the goth
craze passes, WW may or may not survive, if it does survive, it will be
working at reduced capacity.  With less money to be made with RPGs, comic
stores, hobby shops, and book stores will likely drop RPGs entirely, or
make them a smaller part of their line.  The end result?  The whole RPG
business suffers in a big way.  Kids can't get into the RPGs, they won't
get introduced to RPGs, and many publishers will go out of business.

What happened as a result of b.)?  Their marketing campaign drew in many
new players.  Their TV and major magazine ads ensured them a share of the
market that promised a strong profit from CCGs, at least into the near
future.  Realizing that there was a distinct possibility that CCGs would
fall out of favor eventually, they purchased TSR.  AD&D was kept afloat. 
TSR changed its draconian Internet policy.  TSRs products went up a notch
in quality, and gamers repsponded.  AD&D's success  ensures us that there
will still be an RPG section in most comic stores.  It ensures us that many
young kids will get into RPGs as the result of the availability of AD&D in
book stores...  etc.  etc.

As much as many of you will find this distasteful, if AD&D went under,
role-playing games wouldn't be as simple to get as they are now.  There'd
be less companies able to publish stuff, and less options for roleplayers
as a whole.  That's the sad fact of life.

It could be worse.  Do any wargamers what happened when SPI started to go
under and was 'saved' by TSR?  The whole wargaming industry felt the
effects, wargames are much harder to find, and published by far fewer
folks.  Granted, TSR screwed the pooch on that one.  They could have (at
the very least) tried to turn the company around, but they didn't, and the
wargaming industry is truly the poorer for it.  Imagine the results on the
RPG industry if the market leader and the most well-known name in
roleplaying games ceased to exist, or was bought up by a company that
didn't know what to do with it...

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:31:15 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

> From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
>
> I have very little knowledge about marketing. Perhaps today's market
wants
> art work (form) and not content (substance). I do not buy a rule book or
> supplement because of the wonderful art work or graphics. The fact that
> price of the book is adversely affected by the addition of fancy art work
> deters me from purchasing the product.

Hmmm...  You say it as though there's no choice, like, if you have artwork
then you don't have substance, or vice versa, which is bull.

The printing capabilities that have come into existence since the LBBs have
changed the face of publishing entirely.  Things that were too much work to
do by hand, or were prohibitively expensive are dirt cheap by today's
standards.  What creates a professional looking book is form.  Artwork is
part of that form.  Artwork is part of format as well.

Artwork is a big part of good formatting.  It breaks up the monotony of the
page, and gives the eye some rest from pages and pages of dense text. 
Artwork also provides an important visual reference to GMs and players
alike and helps to define what the look and feel of the world is.  Artwork
can also save many lines of text in helping to describe items, weapons,
alien races, ships, what have you.

The old LBBs were hardly cheap by any standard though.  The LBBs were 5
bucks a pop in the early 80s, and were almost all around 48 pages in a
half-sized book.  AD&D modules were between about 5 and 7 dollars, slightly
fewer pages, full sized, with color artwork on the covers, and plenty of
interior art, plenty of maps, and printed interior covers (although the
covers were not bound directly to the book).

> Electronic media without graphics may be a way to go or a no frills run of
> books with CT styled art work of no art work at all to keep the cost down.
> A retail price of $ 20.00 for the main rule books and $ 15.00 for
> supplements would go a long way to induce purchases. does this leave enough
> profit to keep the company viable?

CT style _wasn't_ no artwork at all though.  Mercenary has got a picture in
the front, and the Library Data Supplements are illustrated throughout. 
Fighting Ships has a half-page picture on all but 4 or five of the pages. 
Once you get into the realm of electronic publishing though, then you might
as well add artwork.  It's much cheaper in an electronic medium than a
physical one.

> Traveller products are not stocked by my local game store and I would like
> to change that. I run a game every other week in the store's game room with
> 8 regular players. I am trying to generate interest in the game because it
> is a great and rich gaming environment for SF. Reasonably priced no frill
> books may help.

If you mean no artwork, then that is a big shot in the foot for Traveller. 
Keep in mind that the original 3 LBBs had no artwork because no artwork was
needed at that point in the game's design.  As time went on, the GDW people
added artwork as needed.  I firmly believe that what Traveller needs is new
players.  One of the ways to attract new players is to have something that
jumps off the shelf into their hands and says "buy me!!!"...  You don't get
this effect with a something akin to a 1950s style college text book.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 13:16:55 -0600
From: "LLOYD ROBINSON" <LJR@sbscorp.com>
Subject: Re: A Couple of Questions...

> I expected Dave to point out that both systems are based on FF&S I which
> could conceivably be used to create starships compatible with T4.  There
> are some additions/addenda to fit it into the T4 rules (TL*50 limit on
> laser output being the one that immediately comes to mind) but they were
> pretty much supposed to be upwardly compatible (a herculean undertaking).
>
 > Pete

Does anyone have the list of differences for those of us who do not have FF&S 2?
I have been trying to get a copy of FF&S 2 but nobody local has T4 for sale and I
could never get any responce from FarFuture. No wonder they went out of Business

Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 13:18:27 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility

I feel the need to explain the background and ideas behind the story
concept, with the many questions I've received :)

I've been a Traveller fan since 1980, and a collector, and at one time
a Quadrant Editor for HIWG; but my interested faded with the Rebellion
and I didn't look at TNE at all (although I'll admit to a passing 
admiration of the character generation and system mechanics).

However, when I first heard of T4's development, I decided I wanted to
get back into to Trav fast and furious - and to prep for it, I started
running my local group through The Traveller Adventure.  Well, they did
things that TA doesn't cover, and my personal group of gamers has a 
lot of high aspirations...  So I emphasized the foreign intrigue aspect,
and gave them a lot of brushes with important figures (you know, the 
folks who are always standing behind the President on TV, but no one
knows who they are?), and led it into the Twilight's Peak arc that as we
all know kills the Zhodani plan behind 5FW.  That epic got me thinking
that T4 needed some kind of lead in, some powerful story about founding
the Third Imperium.

By now, you've seen my posting about how I can't stand the Cleon as 
Bill Gates figure T4 gave us.  I drew inspiration from the Victorian 
Age of Imperialism - Cleon as sort of a "John Rockerfeller/Cecil Rhodes"
figure...  Reading the TD #8, #9, and #10 issues, we are told that the
Grand Palace of Cleon was fortified to withstand attack, as it was 
bombed by the Chanestins AFTER year 0.  Therefore, I felt that to justify
that, I'd make the hatred between them and Cleon personal.  I wanted to
show the death throws of the Interstellar Confederation - its statesmen
depending on tradition to help them stand against the "we can do anything"
victorian British/American-like Syleans...  Like the ads for the Titanic
movie right now, "God himself could not sink this ship", I wanted to 
show that bold 'scientific' arrogance...

So now, more than a year later, the published results are Cleon as Bill
Gates, and the Syleans being the Arabs at the height of the 70's Energy
Crisis...  Sigh. 


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 07:28:24 +1200
From: Raygun <raygun@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: FF

Hi, I'm looking to purchase copies of FFS2, CSC, and Milieu:0 Campaign Hardcover.  Anybody have a spare copy or know of a decent mailorder cpy?  Hopefully the prices don't have 'collectors' margins added just yet!

Raygun

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:27:37 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility

> From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
> 
> And as far as your view of Cleon and mine, well, I find Cleon as published
> boring.  When I considered Cleon, as a young man of 26 being the richest 
> person in the Sylean Federation with dreams of Empire, I thought of the 
> John Jacob Astor and Rockerfeller men of the Victorian age, building things
> where nothing was built before, or making reality out of dreams.  I don't
> find any "romantic" allure in dreaming about Bill Gates, thanks.

The same romantic allure exists for Bill Gates.  It's just that his dreams
involve a monopoly at a time when a monopoly is an unpopular thought.  He
is a man that has talent in the computer field and smarts in the business
world and happened to bring the two together.  I've been trying to wrap my
head around Bill Gates (and his effect on the economy) for a while now, and
I'm not sure that his dream isn't all that different from "building things
where nothing was built before".

As much as I have a deep, seething hatred for big business, I'm not all
that sure that I exactly 'hate' Bill Gates or Microsoft.  It is possible
for someone to do a good thing (creating a job market that previously
existed at only a fraction of its size) while doing a bad thing (keeping
proprietary code hidden from Netscape).

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:38:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:07:10 -0800
> From: dberry@hooked.net
> 
> Since people are discussing bank robbers, I thought I'd see if I could get
> Bruce to destroy yet another keyboard.
[Great story snipped]

OK, here's my entry in the "Destroy All Bruce's Keyboards" stupid-criminal
derby:

A guy wearing the obligatory ski mask bursts into a small bank in Florida,
waves a pistol around, and screams "Alright, mother-stickers, this is a
fuck-up!"  Everyone is paralyzed for a moment, then the security guard
starts snickering...a teller giggles...a guy in line laughs out
loud...pretty soon the whole place is practically falling over laughing.
The would-be robber, apparently humiliated beyond his endurance, runs out
the door and escapes.

Later, the bank employees chipped in to buy a plaque with the robber's
memorable phrase on it, which now hangs in a back room where customers
can't see it. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:44:55 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility

> >There is no jump-3 in Milieu:0. ... Jump-1 is the norm, jump-2 is
> >special. Jump-3 is right out.
> 
> Jump-3 is TL-12.  That was the advantage, along with fusion+, that Cleon had.

Huh? From Don's Traveller Timeline...

- -2280     (c) Terran Confederation develops jump-3 drive; Vilani border
          broken. GDW, Supplement 11 - Library Data (N-Z), p. 11.

Geesh. Cleon's advantage? Jump-3 had been around for over 2000 years
by the time Cleon was born. Cleon's advantage was Fusion+ and that
"Bill Gates of the whole universe" attitude.
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:46:36 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> But there is another factor that many forget.. FASA stands for Freedonian
> AeroSpace Adminstration, and was born as a Traveller supplement company.
> Anybody else remember the old tear-drop logo?

Wasn't Freedonia the name of a fictional country in an old Marx Brothers movie?
Complete with anthem, IIRC.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:54:37 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: IMTU Codes

How do you translate this stuff?  I can figure out most of the
abbreviations, but not all.  plus and minus signs seem clear except when
used more than once.  The @ and ! symbols loses me.  Any help?

IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

Thanks Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 07:04:40 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

At 09:12 AM 02/04/98 -0800, Scott Ellsworth wrote:

>I believe it was David Drake who pointed out that a submachinegun with one
>cartridge is just as effective, once, as one with a full clip, whereas a
>laser with only a third of the required power input is more effective as a
>club than as a beam weapon.
>
>He solved this by creating a way of storing massive amounts of energy in a
>little copper disc.  Little hoops of superconductor would do the same, but
>he did not want everything to be battery powered, only weapons, and
>therefore said that the only way to release the energy was as a
>catastrophic beam ' o doom.
>
>IIRC, his forward claimed he got the idea from the pyroclastic cloud of one
>of the South Sea volcanic eruptions.  Martinique, perhaps?

Mount Pelee, I belive. It did in just about everybody on the island,
barring a few crims in the jail, IIRC.


- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 07:26:54 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: TravelrTNE's Troll and response

At 05:05 PM 01/04/98 -0500, Pete wrote:

>And none of it was really usable (assumiong it was developed) to a
>just-starting group of (militant) explorers, which was really about the
>only possible types of adventures, until the Regency Sourcebook.

IIRC it TNE and its supplements state over and over that Samad 'n' Grab is
only a small part of the Coalition's activities, and Path of Tears has a
lot of adventure hooks in it, of which under a third are shoot 'em ups.
What's more the not so violent scenarios often have the potential to branch
out into other areas, and become a whole campaign, if you want them to.

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 06:54:19 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Philosophy... Starship Design Philosophy that is...

At 02:04 AM 02/04/98 EST, Gary wrote:
>In an effort to make some productive discussion rather than just complain
>about it...
>
>Naval Starship Design Philosophy
>
>I)Attack/Defense orientation               
>II) Specialized/Generalized Design     
>
>--Humans
>  -Solomani.  Attack Oriented, Defense Deficient (w/ Specialized defensive
>ships, ala                        
>                    Aegis Missle Cruisers)
>    I've always thought the Solomani naval theory would be heavy attack
>capital ships.  Big spinal mount, minimal secondary weaponry.  Adequate
armor,
>screens but w/ minimal point defense capability.  

I've always pictured Solomani capital ships as being perhaps light on the
armour and screens, but with excellent point defence. OTOH this probably
isn't a very clever idea if you are aiming to fight a higher TL opponent,
because PD relies on your sensors, which are more vulnerable to being out
teched.

>   -Vilani.  Balanced Attack/Defense and Generalized multipurpose ships.
>Basically the middle ground all the way from primary armament to armor to
>point defense.
>
>   - Zhodani.  Balanced much like the Vilani but w/ ships of specialized
roles
>(especially w/ some psionic oriented)

Where on this spectrum do you put the 3I?

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 07:13:46 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

At 02:02 PM 02/04/98 +0800, Colin Hutchinson wrote:

>This is the sort of stuff that takes me by surprise.  It is common.  I
>thought MT to some extent was more 'futuristic'. Slug throwers are no good
>against the soldier of TL15 with BD and FGMP.  I think people are more
>comfortable with slug throwers, and this is why they persist - as if we all
>had a hankering for bows and arrows.  I wonder if this is partly driven by
>gear-head desires to replicate current weapons with various design
>protocols.  I have done enough of them, and itch to see how they perform in
>the game.

Actually in TNE there's a TL6 gun that, with modern (TL8+) rounds will blow
holes in TL12 Battle Dress (why did Battle Dress become Battle Dress
(augmented)?). Using TNE the blunt trauma from a non-penetrating hit will
make life exciting, so I don't see the problem.

Until you've got the TL to make good, light PGMPs (why did they get changed
to Cannons? It's little, gratuitous changes like this that distress me the
most) slug throwers and HEAT grenades and rockets are the way to go. I
don't know what laser small arms were like in Striker, but in the straight
CT rules lasers penetration was crappy - it took a darn good shot to have
any real chance to put down someone in Combat Armour (since when was Combat
Armour called Battle Dress?). To my mind MT style laser penetration is the
abberation, not TNEs poor penetration.

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 20:48 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Gridlore Technologies press release

Moin Douglas,

> Does the name "Lunion" mean anything?

	The mudhole Next to Ianic. Has a nice fresh air, and unlike
	Ianic some water also :

	2124 Lunion X985000-0	- before Douglas arived
	2124 Lunion A99575F-C	- 50 years after settlement

	Where have all the flowers gone ?
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #353
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 2 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 354



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Mailing Lists; (was Re: A Couple of Questions...)
Re: IMTU Codes
Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
Re: T4.1 baseline year
Re: Philosophy... Starship Design Philosophy that is...
Re: piracy
TNE
Re: GDW Trivia
Milieu Zero
Re: Note to Marc
Re: [TTL] The future of Traveller?
Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
(Re)newbie questions
Re: Hand weapons shooting down ships
Re: TNE
Re: AIs and Culture
IG Archive!
Speaking of newbie questions, I have one.
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #341

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 21:01 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Mailing Lists; (was Re: A Couple of Questions...)

Moin Peter H. Brenton,

> The TNE list.  I know nothing about this list execpt that it exists.  When
> it came up I wasn't terribly interested.  I'm sure someone else can point
> you at the sign on instructions (perhaps the person whose address is
> TravellerTNE@...).

	The TNE-RCES list can be reached at listproc@tower.ml.org with
	the normal majordomo commands. But as the last subscribers had
	several problems, try to mail to mbutter@tower.ml.org and to
	ask him politely.

	And just an other list (now we have 7)

	The GAL mailing list, is intended for writers, programmers and
	users of the GAL program. GAL is small DOS/Basic program with
	several megabytes of survey, worldwriteups and library. It can
	be reached at majordomo@indiana.edu with "subscribe burdickd_galactic"
	in the body. Those who only touch a DOS machine to install Linux,
	can download a package from my homepage.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:34:11 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: IMTU Codes

On  2 Apr 98, Steve Daniels disseminated foul capitalist propaganda 
by writing:

> How do you translate this stuff?  I can figure out most of the
> abbreviations, but not all.  plus and minus signs seem clear except
> when used more than once.  The @ and ! symbols loses me.  Any help?

This is identical system as the one used in Geek Code block (hey, 
even the introduction is from Geek Code v.3.1 by Robert Hayden ;)), 
and ! means - I don't wan't to have anything in common with that, 
while @ means that it varies... 


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    Fight unemployment - waste police time. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:38:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility

Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:

>>A jump-3 to Balpan (1819 Core)

>There is no jump-3 in Milieu:0. The whole point of Zhunastu's power was
>they invented an improved fusion (fusion+) which allowed smaller starship
>to be built, and the invented jump-2. Jump-1 is the norm, jump-2 is
>special. Jump-3 is right out.

???  Sylea has TL 12, Jump-3 is TL 12, why is there a problem?  Yesterday
some folks were agruing that no TL 12 devices existed before year 0. 
Well, based on the only timeline of technology I've ever seen for
Traveller (GDW's MT Referee's Companion) page 34:

	The Third Imperium
	(Originally the Sylean Federation)

Year	TL	Comments
- -1776 	10	Syleans maintain interstellar trade
- -650	11	Sylean Federation established
- -150	12 	Robot Manufacturing established
300	13	Vargr Campaigns taking place (210-348)
700	14	Xboat system being built (624-718)
1000	15 	Solomani Rim War taking place (998-1002)

So, the Sylean Federation had TL 12 and Jump 3 long before Cleon was ever
born.  Fusion Plus may have been invented notably later, but I doubt much
else was. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 02:46:11 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: T4.1 baseline year

SD Mooney wrote:
> T4.1 draft gives the baseline year as 97/98. Ie Artemus is now the Emperor.
> This had worked its way into later material like Missions of State.
Gee whiz, wonder why that was... what a coincidence ;-)

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 21:43 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Philosophy... Starship Design Philosophy that is...

Moin Rupert Boleyn,

> Where on this spectrum do you put the 3I?

	Well armed traders and close escord. Just enough fire power to
	discard the pirates from the list. Later when called the 3I they
	relied heavy on ships between 30 and 70kdt with large spinal
	meson mounts, but defense was mainly aimed against TL:10&11
	ships, so they lacked a meson screen. Most of the ships had
	fighter bays instead of missile bays, to use the other advantage
	the early 3I had. This strategy proved well until the Vargs
	destroyed two depos in 185, and managed to orbit Sylea in 191.

	" I was Emperor of Sylea, for one day " this is not a joke
	about the Vargs but a cite of Julian, the first Archeduke
	of Antares. Nobody knows what Martin payed him to withdraw
	his fleet. The only known paragraph is that whenever the
	Emperor will die without a legal child the Archduke of
	Antares has the right to claim the throne. 925 years later,
	nobody wanted a Vargr as Emperor, and Brzk knew it, so he
	did'nt realy try to force his legal claim.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:15:26 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: piracy

> > I just got ripped! I ordered the T4 rule book from a game store and got
> > wacked  $30 for the soft cover!
> > I was expecting a hard cover for that price!
> Um...  It's a durable softcover.  The binding will hold up well, even if
> you beat it up pretty badly.  The pages are of good quality paper...

Same deal with Palladium, but they cost only around $20, so why does it
cost more for IG to do?

> As far as that aspect goes, you get your money's worth.
Yes, but at these prices can you afford it.

> Chris
> semo@pil.net

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:04:16 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: TNE

TNE wasn't about smash & grab. That was just something exciting that some
groups did sometimes, My own campaign had about one 'real' smash & grab,
(plenty of action though).

Much of it was INTEL, recon and diplomacy, plus several desperate defences
of what others had died to build as the barbarians closed in. One team lost
half their members to take down a repressive overlord, and half the
survivors bought it to protect the last refugee-ships out of a port
encircled by the Luddites. IN between times most of our adventuring was
about exploring, contact and interacting with the people we met.

The overall feeling was... 'this is not enough. We must put if back
together, whatever it takes. Or the lights go out forever.'

Here's an except from 'Absent Friends' Lisa's companions are defending a
pre-Collapse medical installation from the barbarians. She's been sent for
help and arrives as the final assault goes in. It the gear is smashed, with
it goes the only hole of a vaccine for the Killer 'Flu.....


As we approached the ruins I could see fighting going on, what looked like
monks as well as troops from the Australian Empire, all attacking the area
my friends were in.  
	I came in right on top of them, never mind the terrain, and I hit so hard
the Lander's legs buckled. That's not supposed to happen. The troops piled
out and I followed them into a blizzard of fire. Most of them hit the deck
straight away.
	We weren't a fighting unit, we were a bunch of walking wounded, clerks and
ship crewmen. We had no heavy weapons, not much body armour and no real
idea what we were doing.
	It was the latter that saw us through.
	I saw a bunch of monks force their way into the ruined building where I'd
last seen Jim and the others, and that was it. I just stood up, ignoring
the flying lead, and ran towards the building with an SMG in one hand and
an autopistol in the other. Some of the others followed me. 
	I couldn't begin to explain why.
	I was using the SMG as a big pistol, on semi-auto. I'm not sure how many I
shot as we crossed the open ground. I do know that at least three
musket-balls hit my flak jacket, but at the time I didn't feel anything.
	We overran a couple of small groups, just kept on going. I suppose some of
the people behind me got hit but I really didn't care. I got to the
entrance, shot a guy trying to stop me, and charged inside. Three of us had
reached the building, and we forced our way towards the sounds of firing
farther inside. We ran into two troopers who tried to stop us, but they
only had muskets. Once they'd fired they had to reload, which took about
twenty seconds. Or a lifetime.
	We hurdled the bodies and pressed on. About a minute later I reached the
inner chamber where we'd found all the gear stashed. There were two more
troopers in the doorway with their backs to me, so I shot them. I entered
the chamber at a dead run.
	And only about thirty seconds too late.
	There were maybe a dozen bodies near the entrance, then a couple farther
in. Opposite me was the Doc, a bayonetted rifle still in him. His sawnoff
lay only a few centimetres from his outstretched hand.
	Pete lay beside Dave a few feet away, sprawled over a makeshift barricade
of furniture. There was blood on Dave's sword, and I later discovered that
he'd run out of ammunition for all his weapons.  
	I saw Jim face down in the corner in a pool of blood. Alice lay nearby,
still moving feebly. She looked up at me and tried to smile.  
	"You came back." It came out in a gasp that tore at my heart. She raised
her hand and tried to point. I followed her gesture, just too late. 
	I'd missed one.  
	He was one of the monks, sitting against the wall with a terrible wound in
his side. He raised a flintlock pistol and shot me. 
	The ball hit me over the heart. It staggered me, but it didn't hurt.
Nothing could hurt my heart after what I'd just seen. I brought up my
autopistol and shot the monk perhaps a dozen times. I kept pulling the
trigger long after the slide locked back. 
	Some of the other rescuers arrived after a moment, but I ignored them. By
then I was cradling Alice's head in my arms. She smiled again at me and
weakly reached up to take my hand.  
	"The gear's safe," she choked out. "We did it."  
	Then she died.

For me, this is the New Era. Keeping the lights burning whatever the cost.
Not all of it was military, of course.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 09:01:46 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: GDW Trivia

At 10:16 PM 01/04/98 EST, Loren Wiseman wrote:
>A little GDW Trivia: Frank asked me for a quote to be on the frontispiece of
>Twilight: 2000. I suggested one of the following:
>
>"Rather it was come to this: that a dead man was then of no more account than
>a dead goat would be today...
>                        -- The Decameron"
>

IIRC you did use that in TW:2000 2nd ed in the encounters chapter.

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:49:56 -0500 (EST)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Milieu Zero

 
DonM said: 
> > The biggest, general, problem with your plot outline is that you are
> > forgetting the theme of Milieu:0 - "Everything is based on economics".
> 
> See below - but to be honest, I think the biggest problem with M:0 as 
> published was that everything was based on economics, not on the 
> individual.  For a few diehards, stuff like Pocket Empires and M:0 Campaign
> is great.

	I'm as big a die-hard for economics in role-playing as anyone, 
and I thought the econ parts of M:0 and PE were terrible.  The plan for 
the trading guild, or whatever it was, for starting wars on planets so 
that they could sell weapons was ridiculous.  Not only was it immoral and 
everything the Imperium should be against, it was bad business.  You can 
rob a man once, but you can trade with him forever.  The theme of 
"everything is based on economics" does not mean "everything is based on 
evil, conniving exploitation" as the authors of M:0 seemed to believe.  
Yes, there will be some losers in the interstellar economy, and megacorps 
will effectively control some planets for their natural resources, but 
ultimately megacorps need _consumers_ and that means that _developing_ the 
worlds on the frontier will ultimately bring greater returns than the "rape 
and pillage" attitude of the Imperial merchants.

Aside:  And they called the RC "Star Vikings"?  The Imperium as depicted 
	in M:0 was far more rapacious and systematically violent than the 
	RC ever was.  If that's the way things really were then "Bring on 
	the Rebellion!" say I.
 
> And as far as your view of Cleon and mine, well, I find Cleon as published
> boring.  When I considered Cleon, as a young man of 26 being the richest 
> person in the Sylean Federation with dreams of Empire, I thought of the 
> John Jacob Astor and Rockerfeller men of the Victorian age, building things
> where nothing was built before, or making reality out of dreams.  I don't
> find any "romantic" allure in dreaming about Bill Gates, thanks.
> 
> My Cleon was a dramatic figure, with grand dreams, and a temper to match.
> Vengeful, yet extremely loyal to a fault to his friends and confidants.
> Your Cleon is a used car salesman with Rolls Royce pretensions.

	I couldn't have said it better.  Your choices for historical
models of Cleon are excellent.  John Jacob Astor built a commercial empire
by opening the interior of North America to the fur trade and creating new
trade routes to Asia.  Rockefeller is a little less heroic but he spread
his oil influence across America and Europe.  In another post you mention
Cecil Rhodes who is an outstanding model of commercial interests building
an empire.  Adm. Perry would be another great M:0 figure, as he opens the
ports of some xenophobic pocket empire with his IN Cruisers.  The 19th
Century is replete with examples of vast commercial and military empires. 
Miliu Zero has some of the trappings of the period with dueling and
nobles, so why not take further inspiration from the period?
	Before Milieu Zero was published, I imagined Cleon as more of a
populist figure who, though rich, was trying to tame the naked avarice of
the nascent megacorps.  He conquered a commercial empire of his own and
then returned to take the reins of power from the old and corrupt Sylean
Federation in an effort to make something better, stronger, and fit for
the task of ruling the empire Sylea had found itself with.  The Imperium
had to be founded on the idea of a new dawn of interstellar civilization
that the people stuck in the Long Night longed for.  He was a man who
demanded a civilization that would serve humaniti better than the Bureux,
or the Ramshackle Empire, or the self-interested megacorps.  He had to
make many compromises to create this empire, certainly, but there lie the
contradictions that breath life into the setting. 

	Let the Civil War and the Rebellion tell the story of an empire
grown old, cynical, and corrupt.  Milieu Zero should be about the hope of 
new beginings.

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:08:07 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Note to Marc

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

> OK. I played MT. Once. On a con. My (not really) Traveller universe
> uses CORPS mechanics. One die. ;>

I see.

> BTW: Is there any place on the net I can buy this game at? I've found
> an offer for a CD with MT and MT2in a local computer games shop,
> but they sold all copies before I could get it... ;(

I've got both of them on 3.5, but I don't think I'm willing to part with them yet.

I like the first game a lot, and I use the second as a GM tool--I roll up random home worlds
and NPCs with it.


> > What's the difference in using several dice for the difficulty (as
> > Marc and T4 do it) or using dice based on level?
>
> None. It's a pain in both cases... ;>

Gotcha.

> > Yes, but not all of those rolls will be a SS or a SF.
>
> Well, yes, that's a big improvement on SW where a 1 on the wild die
> is a critical failure...

Thanks.

> > It's no different that seeing if you roll three sixes or three ones
> > in Marc's system.  You just look at the fate die and see if it is a
> > one or a six.
>
> Of course, rolling three ones or three sixes is much rarer than one
> or six on one die. It is a complication, because you have to roll
> again or take away one die.
> Of course, compared to Marc's task system it's not really complicated
> or anything like that... I just like CORPS, that's all. <grin>

Okey doke.

> Actually, I like this, because a highly skilled character will get
> more SS and less SF, low difficulties have the same result, and high
> difficulties result in more SFs...

Yes, I like that concept too.  I incorporated it into one of my other Traveller tasks systems,
KBv2.0.  I like the idea that, the better you get, the less you have to worry about screwing
up royally.

> I'll keep my one D10, though. ;>

I don't have anything against the D10.  I like it in other games.  I'm just sentimental about
Traveller being only 6 siders.

Taking the 6 sider away from Traveller is like taking the D20 away from AD&D and replacing it
with %dice--it just doesn't feel right.


> Because it raises the average result a bit (by 2), requires a
> different die and still allows for results like a TIE rolling 30+ on
> damage roll and PCs ship 5 or less.

Hmmm.  I see...

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:18:56 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: [TTL] The future of Traveller?

At 05:00 PM 4/2/98 -0500, Harold D. Hale wrote:
>At 06:53 PM 4/2/98 BST-1, Andrew Boulton wrote:
>>In-Reply-To: <9804011736.AA25586@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu>
>>Bruce,
>>> I found this annoucement on FarFuture's web site - not sure why Marc hasn't
>>> posted it to the list (embarrassment, possibly.)
>>I *almost* believed you! :-)
>   Yeah, the tip off was no mention of Vampire clans for the New Era
setting....

    That would have been one of the supplements he talked about.  Much like
Werewolf: Wild West, and Vampire: Dark Ages.  The new ones would have been:

Vampire: The New Era
Mage: Milleu Zero  (a great place for the Sons of Ether!)
Werewolf: The Rebellion


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em
"It made him sound like Anne Rice's Lestat character, who seems sexy 
and exotic in print, but in real life would come across as an especially 
swishy and self-impressed drama queen." -- Buffalo Girls
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:19:15 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility

At 12:38 PM 4/2/98 -0800, John Snead wrote:
>Year	TL	Comments
>-150	12 	Robot Manufacturing established

>So, the Sylean Federation had TL 12 and Jump 3 long before Cleon was ever
>born.  Fusion Plus may have been invented notably later, but I doubt much
>else was. 

In the references, they mention the TL11 version of Fusion Plus, so this is
yet another secret weapon that fails the Reality Test pretty badly.

Sigh.

I am considering adjusting the universe to the point where accumulators are
vastly more useful.  Combined with making antigravity much less power
hungry, it would make it possible to have grav vehicles without fusion
plus, and yet still need them for small fighters or fighter bases.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:35:05 -0800
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: (Re)newbie questions

Hi all!  Back on the list after a hiatus.  I know this topic has probably
been pounded into the ground (near-c rock pun intended), but -- what's up
with Imperium?  From what I'm reading/hearing, they've halted production of
everything.  Their web site has (finally) been updated, only to show that a
lot of their planned products are unavailable "indefinitely."

For reference, I was last on the list as discussion of GURPS Traveller was
beginning to surface.

Any info would be appreciated!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:32:50 +1000
From: andrew.smith@aihw.gov.au (Andrew Smith)
Subject: Re: Hand weapons shooting down ships

8<

>Not quite. I experienced the approximately same situation, as one of my NPCs
>shot down the PCs' _starship_ (which was flying NOE) with one salvo of Gauss
>Rifle fire. True, the Gauss Rifle is an awesome weapon, but for some reason,
>my players protested heavily.
>
>I proceded with my initial ruling, but later I went back to have a look at the
>rules. It is true that you can do up to 4 points of damage with a very
>lucky/skilled shot regardless of armor. However, according to the Game Screen
>from the Referee's Gaming Kit, all vehicles should have their hit values
>multiplied by ten. There was probably a typo or omission in the original rules
>set (haven't been able to find it there), but I seem to recall having seen it
>in some eratta somewhere, besides the Referee's Gaming Kit.

>Mark Seemann
>mark@dk-online.dk (home)
>mse@oticon.dk (work)
>http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

8<

Look at the TL16+ weapons from 'Imperial Arsenal'. The antimatter gauss
rifle, the antimatter plasma cannon, man-portable, and the CG rifle made me
laugh so hard /yesterday's/ coffee squirted out my nose all over my
keyboard. I think it was the line (in which description I can't remember),
which describes that gun as an 'anti-orbital vehicle' gun. Bwah hah hah. I
kill myself.

Andrew

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:32:44 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: TNE

> For me, this is the New Era. Keeping the lights burning whatever the cost.
> Not all of it was military, of course.
> 
> MJD.
> 


That would make very interesting reading in book form.  Hop to it
mister.  :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:37:55 +1000
From: andrew.smith@aihw.gov.au (Andrew Smith)
Subject: Re: AIs and Culture

>Leszek Karlik wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> (I don't think it would be harder than playing any other omniscient
>> NPC--like an Elder Amberite, Yaskoydray or Nyarlathotep).
>
>Well, actually, I don't think any GM has to run Yaskoydray or
>Nyarlthotep, or that many PCs have the possibility of chatting with
>the two aforementioned, err, entities, in real time.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>My surgeon character from Call of Cthulu had tea with a mysterious
>gentelman who turned out to be Nyarlthotep (in his Man in Black
>persona). A very polite host, but he seemed to be enjoying some
>sort of private joke all the while...
>
>
>Walt Smith

Both 'gentlemen' have turned up IMTU. The one because of 'Secrets of the
Ancients', the other because a psionic once had a /bad/ trip on psi drugs.

I'm thinking of putting down baits.

Andrew

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:40:27 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: IG Archive!

While the IG web page is still up, one of you beautiful Traveller web
site holders out there should grab all of the info contained therein and
place it on your web site.

I'd hate to see the complete listing of TNS articles from all of
Traveller's history lost when they stop maintaining the site.

Goran?  Free Lance Traveller?  Anybody?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:52:47 -0600
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Speaking of newbie questions, I have one.

Couldn't find this in the FAQ, or in the rules.  If it's there, please
point me to the appropriate place.

When a ship exits from jumpspace, where in the system is it?  How much
control does the navigational crew have over exact insystem destination
when they jump?

How is it then routed into port (what are the possible solutions, since I
would expect many variations to be in use)?

What if there are multiple destinations in-system?
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:02:49 -0700 (MST)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

  "Here at Ortillery Command we have at our diposal hundred megawatt laser
beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say
 we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his SMITE button
                        for our fire control system"

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, DustyLV769 wrote:

> In a message dated 4/1/98 13:20:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
> 
> << Excellent idea! I think though that FASA would say no, because of potential
>  fratricidal competion to Battletech. This is what killed Interceptor-
>  Centurion-Renegade Legion. This is more the pity.... >>
>  
> 
> NO!!! No more Fredonian atrocities!!  FASA has almost always managed to screw
> up there role-playing efforts; for example, Star Trek, Battletech (Mechwarrior
> was the worst).  Even Shadowrun (a game I cordially loathe) took 2 editions to
> get realitively playable. 

I think they need another edition, cause this one isn't really playable.

> Now, if ou wanted to do a starship combat
> game...FASA would definately be the way to go. 

Ground Zero Games/ Geo-hex.  Ever play Full Thrust??  Great game.

Or Silent Death.  OR (and shoot me for suggesting them) WEG.  Their
spaceship game for SHATTERZONE was great.  And it was designed to optimize
ships requiring 4-8 people to run combat.  

> They make good
> boardgames...they don't have a clue re: RPGS, in my humble opinion of course.
> 
> DustyLV769@aol.com
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 18:04:02 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #341

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #341



>>2) Reduction of working hours. A simply solution, if the number of jobs is
>>   halved, society responds by halving working hours effectively spliting
>>   each existing jobs into two jobs. This solution will have meet strong
>>   oposition from employers.
>>
>
>This is fundamentally about the bargaining powers between workers/citizens
>vs employers. If employers say "Nope. We'd prefer to employ half the people
>for the same number of hours and keep the extra profits from lower training
>and recruitment costs", what happens next ?
>
>>  Andrew etc.
>>    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
>>    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
>
>Ian Whitchurch

Just have to jump in on this section a bit. It's been my experience that
automation has, in fact DECREASED WORKERS and INCREASED WORKING HOURS. At
the refinery I'm employed at since we went to centralized control systems
and advanced electronics the work shift has changed from 3 8 hour shifts to
2 12 hour shifts, the number of work days has decressed from 5 to 4 however,
over all the number of employees has also decreased, from an average of 4-5
operators per production unit to 1 Console operator per 3 units and an
average of 2-3 per unit (loss of about 5 jobs per 3 units). Maintenence has
also be shifted to 10 hour shift 4 days per week, with nights covered by
overtime if/as needed, previously it was 5, 8 hour days, with 5 to 10
maintenance workers of 2nd and 3rd shifts (also 8 hours).

In the operations department, the reasoning for increased hours perr day was
that the automation reduced the physical work. Some (very unofficial)
studies have started to indecat that the longer hours may be causing loss of
attention toward the end of shift, but Corperate America seems intent on
ignoring this.

Sorry to jump in on your thread but this is something I'm personally opposed
to (although I'm a technical employee and thus "MANAGMENT"). My Grandfather
stoodon the picket lines when goons were using axe handles and baseball bats
to fight for 8 hour days, and 40 hour weeks. Now, decades later, all that
pain and blood shed seems to be fading away!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #354
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 2 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 355



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: IG's FF&S
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #354
Re: Speaking of newbie questions, I have one.
Re: T-next?
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
Travlist: re- Jump hyper limits (aka jump even horizons)
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: IG's FF&S
Re: Traveller's future
re: Re: A Couple of Questions...
Archive for TML
Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re:  the Future of Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:23:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: IG's FF&S

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Matthew Harelick wrote:

> Did Imperium Games ever (re)publish Fire, Fusion, and Steel?

Yes.  It's commonly referred to on the list as FFS2.

> If the answer to the above question is yes, then:
> 
>     (a) What is its quality?

Fair, if you combine formatting and content.  Formatting is terrible (IG
practically required writers to go backwards in time with their deadline
schedules), but the content is pretty good.

>     (b) Does it go up to tech level 15+ ?

TL 15 and beyond, for some systems, only up to TL 15 for others.  Pretty
much the same as FFS1 (the TNE version).

>     (c) Is it still available?

Should be piled miles high in a warehouse somewhere.  You can probably
order it through some book retailers.  Amazon.com might be able to get it
for you too.

The primary problem with FFS2 is that is contains certain items of
equipment (e.g. master fire directors), the use of which is necessarily
explained by other rules (in FFS1's case, MFDs were explained in the main
rules and Brilliant Lances).  Unfortunately, T4-updated rules never came
out for all of this stuff, so you're left guessing as to exactly how the
new stats are put to use.  There is errata online (try the Missouri
Archive), but some of the stuff is still missing. 


Ciao,
Clark


- --
"Remember, if you see a flash:  It's Duck!  And Cover!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:49:49 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #354

> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:38:07 -0800 (PST)
> From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
> 
> Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
> 
> >>A jump-3 to Balpan (1819 Core)
> 
> >There is no jump-3 in Milieu:0. The whole point of Zhunastu's power was
> >they invented an improved fusion (fusion+) which allowed smaller starship
> >to be built, and the invented jump-2. Jump-1 is the norm, jump-2 is
> >special. Jump-3 is right out.
> 
> ???  Sylea has TL 12, Jump-3 is TL 12, why is there a problem?  Yesterday
> some folks were agruing that no TL 12 devices existed before year 0. 
> Well, based on the only timeline of technology I've ever seen for
> Traveller (GDW's MT Referee's Companion) page 34:

Well, now that I'm home, I'll stand by my original posting of jump-3 :)

> 	The Third Imperium
> 	(Originally the Sylean Federation)
> 
> Year	TL	Comments
> - -1776 	10	Syleans maintain interstellar trade
> - -650	11	Sylean Federation established
> - -150	12 	Robot Manufacturing established
> 300	13	Vargr Campaigns taking place (210-348)
> 700	14	Xboat system being built (624-718)
> 1000	15 	Solomani Rim War taking place (998-1002)
> 
> So, the Sylean Federation had TL 12 and Jump 3 long before Cleon was ever
> born.  Fusion Plus may have been invented notably later, but I doubt much
> else was. 

Well, Fusion Plus was supposed to be TL11 - or is this another M:0 
continuity glitch?

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 02:46:11 +0200
> From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
> Subject: Re: T4.1 baseline year
> 
> SD Mooney wrote:
> > T4.1 draft gives the baseline year as 97/98. Ie Artemus is now the Emperor.
> > This had worked its way into later material like Missions of State.
> Gee whiz, wonder why that was... what a coincidence ;-)

Artemsus was a real bastard of an Emperor; here's a guy who while continuing
to mouth platitudes to Cleon's ideals while starting the Pacification 
Campaigns.  And tell me this guy wasn't a Vilani on a Solomani throne...
:)

> ------------------------------
> 
> 	" I was Emperor of Sylea, for one day " this is not a joke
> 	about the Vargs but a cite of Julian, the first Archeduke
> 	of Antares. Nobody knows what Martin payed him to withdraw
> 	his fleet. The only known paragraph is that whenever the
> 	Emperor will die without a legal child the Archduke of
> 	Antares has the right to claim the throne. 925 years later,
> 	nobody wanted a Vargr as Emperor, and Brzk knew it, so he
> 	did'nt realy try to force his legal claim.

Where in the @$#^@#$% is this quote from?

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:49:56 -0500 (EST)
> From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
> Subject: Milieu Zero
>  
> 	I'm as big a die-hard for economics in role-playing as anyone, 
> and I thought the econ parts of M:0 and PE were terrible.  The plan for 
> the trading guild, or whatever it was, for starting wars on planets so 
> that they could sell weapons was ridiculous.  Not only was it immoral and 
> everything the Imperium should be against, it was bad business.  You can 
> rob a man once, but you can trade with him forever.  The theme of 
> "everything is based on economics" does not mean "everything is based on 
> evil, conniving exploitation" as the authors of M:0 seemed to believe.  
> Yes, there will be some losers in the interstellar economy, and megacorps 
> will effectively control some planets for their natural resources, but 
> ultimately megacorps need _consumers_ and that means that _developing_ the 
> worlds on the frontier will ultimately bring greater returns than the "rape 
> and pillage" attitude of the Imperial merchants.
> 
> Aside:  And they called the RC "Star Vikings"?  The Imperium as depicted 
> 	in M:0 was far more rapacious and systematically violent than the 
> 	RC ever was.  If that's the way things really were then "Bring on 
> 	the Rebellion!" say I.

Damn.  I wish I'd said that...

> 	I couldn't have said it better.  Your choices for historical
> models of Cleon are excellent.  John Jacob Astor built a commercial empire
> by opening the interior of North America to the fur trade and creating new
> trade routes to Asia.  Rockefeller is a little less heroic but he spread
> his oil influence across America and Europe.  In another post you mention
> Cecil Rhodes who is an outstanding model of commercial interests building
> an empire.  Adm. Perry would be another great M:0 figure, as he opens the
> ports of some xenophobic pocket empire with his IN Cruisers.  The 19th
> Century is replete with examples of vast commercial and military empires. 
> Miliu Zero has some of the trappings of the period with dueling and
> nobles, so why not take further inspiration from the period?

There you go...

> 	Before Milieu Zero was published, I imagined Cleon as more of a
> populist figure who, though rich, was trying to tame the naked avarice of
> the nascent megacorps.  He conquered a commercial empire of his own and
> then returned to take the reins of power from the old and corrupt Sylean
> Federation in an effort to make something better, stronger, and fit for
> the task of ruling the empire Sylea had found itself with.  The Imperium
> had to be founded on the idea of a new dawn of interstellar civilization
> that the people stuck in the Long Night longed for.  He was a man who
> demanded a civilization that would serve humaniti better than the Bureux,
> or the Ramshackle Empire, or the self-interested megacorps.  He had to
> make many compromises to create this empire, certainly, but there lie the
> contradictions that breath life into the setting. 

Here, here...  Besides, the real bogeyman of the era is the Chanestin
Kingdom, and then the dark Artemsus Lentuli, waiting in the wings for 
a naive 32 year old whose education was his responsibility to not be
able to handle the reigns of empire...

> 	Let the Civil War and the Rebellion tell the story of an empire
> grown old, cynical, and corrupt.  Milieu Zero should be about the hope of 
> new beginings.

"should HAVE BEEN about"
 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:19:15 -0800
> From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
> Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
> 
> At 12:38 PM 4/2/98 -0800, John Snead wrote:
> >Year	TL	Comments
> >-150	12 	Robot Manufacturing established
> 
> >So, the Sylean Federation had TL 12 and Jump 3 long before Cleon was ever
> >born.  Fusion Plus may have been invented notably later, but I doubt much
> >else was. 
> 
> In the references, they mention the TL11 version of Fusion Plus, so this is
> yet another secret weapon that fails the Reality Test pretty badly.

So we come not to praise M:0, but to bury it?  As much as I'm saddened by
what M:0 turned out to be, I don't want it to be a total loss...

> Sigh.

You too, huh.  I've been doing that a lot dealing with Traveller lately...
Marc, do you have some good news for us?


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 18:54:35 EST
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of newbie questions, I have one.

In a message dated 98-04-02 17:54:30 EST, you write:

<< 
 When a ship exits from jumpspace, where in the system is it?  How much
 control does the navigational crew have over exact insystem destination
 when they jump?
  >>

Usually, it is 100 diameters out from the destination world, on a line which
reaches back to the origin point.

Or, the ship can come out at a plotted point, at the point with a variation of
+D-D times 50,000 km, along the line between origin and destination.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:02:22 +1000 (EST)
From: DAVID CALLUM Moodie <dcm06@uow.edu.au>
Subject: Re: T-next?

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
>   Gee, I wonder if Games Workshop is interested? It's already got an
> Emperor and everything...

I changed my mind... I prefer wotc :P
 

Dave 'Davechan' Moodie
*****************************************************
* The Many Faces of Washu                           *
* http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/kingston/196 *
*****************************************************
Whad'ya mean? There's no goblin cute as me!
- -----------------------------------------------------
tc+  tm++ tn++ t4-  tg   ru++ ge+  3i-  jt   au+  st+
ls   kk   hi+  as   va   dr+  so-  zh   vi   da+  sy-
he
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:53:32 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

At 12:32 pm 4/1/98 +0000, you wrote:
>It seems T4 didn't sell as well as we'd like.  Why?
>
>- Its yet another version of the rules?
>- The artwork wasn't canon?
>- Problems with the rules?
>- Poor layout?
>- Financial mismanagement?
>- Lack of proof-reading?
>
>_Or_  was  it  because  it  was  lacking  a  story?  

	I'm afraid I'd have to claim it was most of the bullets above,
rather than the lack of a storyline. The new rules were ... okay at
best (IMHO--YMMV). The artwork turned me off, the layout was crappy,
and the proofreading was abominable. The only books I bothered with
are (a) the signed hardcopy, (b) Central Supply Catalog, so I could
try to work it into FF&S2 as much as possible (didn't work, sorry),
(c) FF&S2, because I got one free (actually, despite many promises,
IG never sent me one--Guy got two, and was kind enough to share), and
(d) the Book That I Didn't Work On, because I got one free.

	Storyline ... CT didn't have any kind of story when it came out.
That slowly evolved as adventures were written. MT had a strong
storyline, granted, but that was actually a strike against it in my
view--I didn't *want* to try to fit characters into some major epic
adventure over which I had no control. TNE had a strong background,
but no strong storyline developed before it died.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:47:24 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

At 10:28 am 4/1/98 +0200, you wrote:
>On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>
>> Since people are discussing bank robbers, I thought I'd see if I could get
>> Bruce to destroy yet another keyboard.
>
>Other ones, heard on the radio short ago:
>
>Some thiefs tried to rob a bank with a truck - they parked it backside to
>the bank, tied the bankomat to it and drove off ... later they realized,
>it was the statement printer instead ...
>
>Another one, a soldier of the german army, robbed a bank, in uniform, but 
>with a mask. As this army is conscientious about their uniforms, you could
>read his name later on the video tape.
>
>And then there were two thiefs who photgraphed themselves at work, but
>threw away the polaroids 'cause they only showed black ...

	The latest I read this morning--two thieves in England had been
videotaping their nightly forays. When the plice found them, they had
edited the various scenes, inserted background music, captions,
credits, etc ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 19:16:27 EST
From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
Subject: Travlist: re- Jump hyper limits (aka jump even horizons)

In a message dated 98-04-02 17:54:30 EST, you write:
<< 
 Couldn't find this in the FAQ, or in the rules.  If it's there, please point
me to the appropriate place.
 
 When a ship exits from jumpspace, where in the system is it?  How much
control does the navigational crew have over exact insystem destination when
they jump?
 
 How is it then routed into port (what are the possible solutions, since I
would expect many variations to be in use)? >>

well,  my former games master made the exit form jumpspace at the 'event
horizon/ of the planetary system, then you moved in form there on a shorter
ranged jumps to move incloser to your point of destination 

for example....  let's say you are going to be jumping in to the Sol System
you would pop in around either pluto or neptune (if you have a really good
navigator you can get as close as saturn...) so it would take you 20 to 25
days to travel form Pluto to the Astroid Belt if their was nothing slowing you
down... form Terrra to the other side of Sol to Terra's 'Mirror' slot on the
other side can be reached in 3 days by the fastest fighters where the Terran
Confederation maintains a large series of Starship Yards and deep space
military bases.  this same route will take 5 days by most warships and 7 to 8
days to traverse by the non-military transports...  (form Venus to Terrra by
luxury liner is 7 days though it could be made in 3 to 4 days)..

our games master had us run through the Campaign for Terra (the final stages
of the Solomani Rim War to those who use that discusting title for Terrans)...
i was playing my favorite charcter Hadrian Lehnsheerr, the Terran
Confederation Navy's Grand Admiral in defense of the birthplace of humanity
("this planet is the cradle of humanity, not its Damn Coffin!")..  He planned
the Vulcan Defense Ring strategy when it became evident that the Imps were not
going to stop till they took Terra...  

90% of the Imps never made it past the astroid belt...  Grand Admiral
Lehnsheerr turned the Astroid Belt into a series of anti-ship batteries and
masked fighter and fastboat refeuling/resupply bases...  the Imp ships got
reipped a new one when they finally made it, and those who did finally break
through the belt wheren't in the shape to go any further. especally when they
met the 9th Reserve Fleet (composed of three carriers, one fleet carrier, two
battleships, four battlecrusiers, and their various escorts) who had been
waiting to intercept anyone who made it Vulcan.  On board the fleet carrier
TCS- Erich Hartmann (Grand Admiral Lehnsherr's Flagship) Lehnsheerr and the
Imp Commanding Admiral signed the armistance that ended the fighting...

the Vulcan Defense Ring is one killer self-defense formation, the rolling
defense line  form Jupiter to the belt (Vulcan) where the Terran Dreadnoughts,
Battleships, Battlecruisers and other BIG Gun ships were pounding as they
retreated (the last bit they made it look like they broke and ran to retreat..
the Imps rushed into the crosshairs of the Tarkin Cannons (TCS- Tarkin, TCS-
Hitler, TCS- Stalin, TCS- Robspeire, TCS- Cartugla and several others- yes
they are all named after butchers form history and fiction...)

unfortunately, the Tarkin's and 80% of the Confederate Navy didnt survie to
see the end of the war, and the Truce that ended the war was much more
irritateing and reminisant of the worst aspects of the cold war between the US
and Soviets, this status was more interesting than what was in the cannon
sourcebooks...  

The Terran Confederation in his (and now my setting) is composed of all the
Terran Sphere of Infulence (the Solomani Rim). Both the Terrans and the
Zhodani nibbled at the Imperiam in various frointer wars to reinforce the
current boarders to the Imps (a few worlds are traded back and forth every
other war)... and the Imps used the Terrans and the Zhodani threats as the
excuses for large military budgets and military build ups that later were used
by combatants to ripp the Imperium into little peices during the Civil War...
our MT military campaigns were really massive, enough warships to block out
the sun form the planets below... and the whole time teh Zhodani and Terrans
have agreed to carve up the imperium with the Aslan and a few of the Imp
seperatist (like the Vilani.... and Margrets forces)...  it was a really fun
set of games...  

gods i miss those fun filled days..

richard

Ps-  any one interested in more info on our setting let me know and i might
post it and get really branded a heritic...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:17:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Steve Daniels wrote:

> 
> 
> Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing wrote:
> 
> > >If FarFuture even *thinks* about asking Wizards of the Coast I'll run away
> > >screaming ^_-
> > >
> >
> > Might not be as bad as IG though...  :)
> 
>   But who has got more staying power than Steve Jackson Games?
> I mean besides those guys in Lake Geneva who went bankrupt.
> Oh, wait, WOTC bought them didn't they?  Wizards of the Inland Coast?  ;-)

I must confess to some curiosity as to why people think WoTC would be a
bad choice. Aside from animosity towards D&D and Magic, why would they be
a bad choice?

They are probably _the_ most successful gaming company out there. I don't
see anyone _else_ buying prime time TV for ads. Granted it's on cable, but
it _is_ during South Park, probably the Comedy Channel's hottest show, and
hence, priciest time.

So what if you don't like D&D or Magic. They have done just about
_everything_ right about production and marketing of the products.

That's what's needed here.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:25:15 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

Actually, to reiterate a commonly overlooked point, slug throwers, hell,
even my 1906-vintage Smith&Wesson work perfectly well in zero-gee or
vaccuum. gunpowder is a complete explosive, it has both oxidizer and
oxidant, and thus needs no oxygen.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, james a clem wrote:

> 
> On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 10:30:41 +0800 Colin Hutchinson
> <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> writes:
> >One of the oddest things about TNE was the RC.  Here we have space 
> >faring
> >people whose small arms remains in the dark-ages.
> 
> One thing to consider though.  Slug throwers are more efficient in the
> use of resources than energy weapons, plus they are obviously effective. 
> With rocket cartridges, you even get a weapon that works in zero-g.  I
> don't think a star faring race with slug throwers is so odd.  Just look
> at CT, lead flying everywhere!!
> 
> 
> Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
> warmind@juno.com
> www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
> IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:26:21 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: IG's FF&S

At 09:52 pm 4/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi::
>
>Did Imperium Games ever (re)publish Fire, Fusion, and Steel?

	Yes. Guy Garnett and myself took a whack at it.

>If the answer to the above question is yes, then:
>
>    (a) What is its quality?

	I'm biased, but not necessarily in the way you think. Compared to
what I *wanted* it to be, it's lacking. Others have told me I'm too
harsh. 
	I'm rather proud of some parts of it that I think we fleshed out
well and provided good roleplaying as well as gearhead material.
Other parts aren't up to my standards. 
	We were rushed by IG, and it went to press without playtesting,
editing, or Marc Miller's review. There are some definite
typographical problems, but once you get over them, and the poor
layout, I think it's decent.

>    (b) Does it go up to tech level 15+ ?

	Yes.

>    (c) Is it still available?

	Dunno. 
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:25:15 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's future

At 07:24 pm 4/2/98 +1200, you wrote:
>Well they finally pulled the plug on IG. Not before time, the
company had
>been obviously brain dead for some time (even before
"hospitalisation").
>
>So..... who is going to take up the baton now?
>
>Here's my wish list in order of preferance:
>  Chaosium
>  FASA
>  Avalon Hill
>  Steve Jackson Games
>  Wizards of the Coast (though they won't due to "Alternaty")

	I guess my wishlist really is a wishlist, because at the top of it is
	GDW2 (Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank Chadwick ...)


- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 01:24:00 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Re: A Couple of Questions...

"LLOYD ROBINSON" <LJR@sbscorp.com> wrote:
>Does anyone have the list of differences for those of us who do not have FF&S 2?
>I have been trying to get a copy of FF&S 2 but nobody local has T4 for sale and I
>could never get any responce from FarFuture. No wonder they went out of Business

<buzzer> Wrong, Try again.

FarFuture Enterprises still exists. Imperium Games is the company
disappearing. FFE owns all the rights to Traveller - it's Marc Miller's
organisation/company.

You should have tried Imperium Games not FFE.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 01:29:04 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Archive for TML

I need to access the TML archives on and around 15/16/17 Feb 1997 to get a
new copy of Rob Flammang's High Guard to T4 conversion rules. My original
majordomo response doesn't cover this - can anyone advise how I go about it?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 19:36:10 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility

John R. Snead wrote:

> Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
>
> >>A jump-3 to Balpan (1819 Core)
>
> >There is no jump-3 in Milieu:0. The whole point of Zhunastu's power was
> >they invented an improved fusion (fusion+) which allowed smaller starship
> >to be built, and the invented jump-2. Jump-1 is the norm, jump-2 is
> >special. Jump-3 is right out.
>
> ???  Sylea has TL 12, Jump-3 is TL 12, why is there a problem?  Yesterday
> some folks were agruing that no TL 12 devices existed before year 0.
> Well, based on the only timeline of technology I've ever seen for
> Traveller (GDW's MT Referee's Companion) page 34:

[snip timeline]

> So, the Sylean Federation had TL 12 and Jump 3 long before Cleon was ever
> born.  Fusion Plus may have been invented notably later, but I doubt much
> else was.
>
> -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

What you're missing is the info in Milieu 0 concerning the Long Night.  A
period in which technology was lost.

  From Milieu 0 (Hardcover) Page 87: and Page 113.

- -1776  Financial Collapse of Rule of Man
- -1700 Loss of Fusion Technology on Sylea
- -1526 Long Night begins.  Off-world travel all but stopped.
- - 962 Reaver attacks on Sylea
- - 650 Sylean Federation established
- - 495 Sylean scouts contact Vland
- -   30 Cleon gains control of Federation; begins active expansion campaign.
Vland agrees to join Federation.  Vland still TL9.
- -   28 Fusion Plus invented.
Year 0 Sylean Federation at TL12.

Other material indicates at year 0 it has just reached TL 12.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:37:36 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

At 04:02 pm 4/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
>T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
>		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/
>
>  "Here at Ortillery Command we have at our diposal hundred megawatt
laser
>beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some
people say
> we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his SMITE
button
>                        for our fire control system"


	ROTFL. Also SFMOU.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:41:50 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re:  the Future of Traveller

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:26:28 EST
>From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
>Subject: FarFuture Announcement
>
>For Immediate Release (April 1, 1998)
>
>March 31 marks the end of an era and the beginning of a new one.
>
>Imperium has made a decision that it will release no more Traveller materials.
>The T4 materials on hand at Imperium continue to be available to the adventure
>game market through distributors and hobby stores.
>
>Sweetpea has made a decision, with Imperium out of the picture, that it will
>no longer actively pursue licensing of the Traveller property, devoting
>instead its energies to its D&D license. 
>
>Far Future has re-acquired substantially all rights to all Traveller
>properties and is negotiating for a new publisher for the foundational role-
>playing rules.
>
>(This is NOT an April Fools Day message).
>
>Marc Miller  FarFuture@AOL.comFor what it's worth (gad, I hate cute little acronyms):

What about Dream Pod Nine for T5?  Their Heavy Gear line is also more
wargame than role-playing game, so less fratricide potential.  The
mechanics are simple, robust, and reasonably close to much of what T4.1
samples Marc Miller has posted to this list, if it were desirable to make
the two compatible.  They are a small company, granted, but Mr. Miller is
doing the writing on T4.1. Their graphics are *extremely* accurate
representations of what is covered in the text, whether the text itself is
realistic or not.  Their layouts are among the highest quality available on
the shelves today.

Heck with it - what's their email address....?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #355
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, April 3 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 356



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Travlist: re- Jump hyper limits (aka jump even horizons)
Re: The last time...
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #344
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re:FarFuture Announcement
Re: Milieu Zero
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
TL 15 100 dt Circular NPAW Bay
Re: Travlist: re- Jump hyper limits (aka jump even horizons)
Re: Milieu Zero
Re: (Re)newbie questions
Re: IG Archive!
Re: Gridlore Technologies press release
Re: Milieu Zero
Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: A question
Jump Drives... no really, read this.
Re: piracy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 19:47:40 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Travlist: re- Jump hyper limits (aka jump even horizons)

RSpake2064 wrote:

> In a message dated 98-04-02 17:54:30 EST, you write:
> <<
>  Couldn't find this in the FAQ, or in the rules.  If it's there, please point
> me to the appropriate place.
>
>  When a ship exits from jumpspace, where in the system is it?  How much
> control does the navigational crew have over exact insystem destination when
> they jump?
>
>  How is it then routed into port (what are the possible solutions, since I
> would expect many variations to be in use)? >>
>
> well,  my former games master made the exit form jumpspace at the 'event
> horizon/ of the planetary system, then you moved in form there on a shorter
> ranged jumps to move incloser to your point of destination
>

Why didn't you just jump insystem perpendicular to the plane of the ecliptic?
Gravitationally speaking you just couldn't get within 100 diameters of the sun,
the rest of the planets would be easy to get to, relatively speaking.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:10:29 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: The last time...

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 at 16:05:53 +0000, Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:

>>From the TNE news service
>(http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Traveller/news.html):
>
>"The last time something like this happened was in the reign of Arbellatra
>in 632."
>
>     Oh! If that isn't a portentous comment I don't know what is!
>          Jo

Foreshadowing, your guide to quality literature!(tm)

What I found even more interesting than this, though, was the Type TI
  (or should I say TJ?) that blasted through the Capital traffic pattern
  in an awful big hurry.  Anyone care to speculate on its cargo?  My
  off-the-cuff guess, without doing the math on the travel time, is
  the Real Strephon hurrying back from his review of Longbow in time
  to speak at the Archduke's funeral...


- --------------
Kelly St.Clair
kellys@efn.org

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 19:39:09 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #344

> > I would be interested in finding out how they determine social security
> > numbers since the only inquiry I ever heard of received a curt and very
> > final denial followed by a click.

There was an article published in "Details" magazine last year that 
explained how the numbering system worked.  It did indeed have to do 
with the year of your birth, location, etc. 
James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 19:39:09 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

> >- Its yet another version of the rules?
> 
> Not really.  With all due respect to the TNE contingent, many people
> welcomed the return to a rules set based on CT.

I'd have to agree here.  I've never played TNE or MegaTraveller.  
But, I enjoyed the T4.1 rules, and it's additions.  Maybe I'm just 
not as picky, but the bugs didn't bother me so much either.  I've 
always been one to make my own house rules, or ignore a rule if I 
don't like it.

> >_Or_  was  it  because  it  was  lacking  a  story?  CT  had  the
> >storylines of the 5FW  and  the  secret  of  the  Ancients  (told
> >through TAS news items and related products),  MT  had  a  strong
> >storyline of the Rebellion  (told through  sometimes  conflicting
> >TAS news items  and  related  products),  even  TNE  had  a  weak
> >storyline of the post-3I recovery.

I still have my original CT book.  There is no real storyline present 
in the basic manuals.  The storyline was developed later, through the 
supplements, JTAS, and the sourcebooks.

> When CT first came out, there was no story.  I took a few years for the
> Imperium and the whole idea of the Ancients to evolve.  Remember, in
> Adventure 1, the Zhodani didn't even have a name!

I have been buying GURPS supplements and sourcebooks as "filler" and 
Idea generators for my new Traveller campaign.  I find the books are 
well produced and designed.  I don't use the rule system ( I do 
things backwards by converting all my GURPS stuff to Traveller 
rules).  I'm looking forward to their "version." 

James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 19:39:09 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re:FarFuture Announcement

> my game.  Given these considerations, is there anything from T4 that's worth
> picking up before its gone?  Thanks

Ed, I too am a CT player, recently starting again.  While the T4 
system gets a lot of flack around here, I found that the character 
generation and experience rules allowed my new players to have some 
better rounded characters, that weren't about to die of old age!  
Unlike my old CT campaigns of 15 years ago, when my players had 5 or 
6 skills and were 62! 


Visit the Computer Profits Website
A wealth of information
http://www.computerprofits.virtual-spaces.com
James Pearson / Pearson Publishing
pearsonpub@computerprofits.virtual-spaces.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:45:23 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 at 16:49:56 -0500 (EST), 
John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu> wrote:


(a whole lot snipped)

>	I couldn't have said it better.  Your choices for historical
>models of Cleon are excellent.  John Jacob Astor built a commercial empire
>by opening the interior of North America to the fur trade and creating new
>trade routes to Asia.  Rockefeller is a little less heroic but he spread
>his oil influence across America and Europe.  In another post you mention
>Cecil Rhodes who is an outstanding model of commercial interests building
>an empire.  Adm. Perry would be another great M:0 figure, as he opens the
>ports of some xenophobic pocket empire with his IN Cruisers.  The 19th
>Century is replete with examples of vast commercial and military empires. 
>Miliu Zero has some of the trappings of the period with dueling and
>nobles, so why not take further inspiration from the period?
>	Before Milieu Zero was published, I imagined Cleon as more of a
>populist figure who, though rich, was trying to tame the naked avarice of
>the nascent megacorps.  He conquered a commercial empire of his own and
>then returned to take the reins of power from the old and corrupt Sylean
>Federation in an effort to make something better, stronger, and fit for
>the task of ruling the empire Sylea had found itself with.  The Imperium
>had to be founded on the idea of a new dawn of interstellar civilization
>that the people stuck in the Long Night longed for.  He was a man who
>demanded a civilization that would serve humaniti better than the Bureux,
>or the Ramshackle Empire, or the self-interested megacorps.  He had to
>make many compromises to create this empire, certainly, but there lie the
>contradictions that breath life into the setting. 
>
>	Let the Civil War and the Rebellion tell the story of an empire
>grown old, cynical, and corrupt.  Milieu Zero should be about the hope of 
>new beginings.
>
>- -JM

I think a lot of the problem is that WE (most of us, anyway) are living 
in a society that has grown old, cynical, and corrupt.  "Big business,"
"government," "religion"... practically dirty words now to many.  With
the benefit of hindsight, we see the suffering that the great capitalists
of the Industrial Revolution and the early 20th century built their
empires on.  Perry forced a nation that just wanted to be left alone
into the world scene so that foreign merchants could sell things to them.
Gates IS the classic model of a captain of industry, building his own
monoply; it's just that we no longer see those things as admirable.  The
sweatshops of Nike are on the evening news, along with the latest report
on the personal failings of our leaders.

We live in a time with damn few heroes.  I speak not of celebrities, or
rich men, but heroes.  We have begun to doubt whether they even exist.
Witness the steady crumbling of the legend of John F. Kennedy.  No real
person could stand the level of scrutiny we give the well-known these
days.  And we deride fictional heroes as "superficial", "idealized" 
and "unrealistic."

We have the choice to look at the good or the bad.  Mostly we choose to
see the bad.

Some say the problem is that we're all in a big millenial funk, and 
will have to wait a decade or two before we see that the world hasn't
come to an end and get on with building the future.  But for now, we're
all just muddling through.


- --------------
Kelly St.Clair
kellys@efn.org

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 09:48:46 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

At 17:25 2/04/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Actually, to reiterate a commonly overlooked point, slug throwers, hell,
>even my 1906-vintage Smith&Wesson work perfectly well in zero-gee or
>vaccuum. gunpowder is a complete explosive, it has both oxidizer and
>oxidant, and thus needs no oxygen.

How does this give them an edge over Plasma weapons or Lasers?  

I wonder if  cost ought to be a factor.  At high tech levels it would
presumably be very cheap to manufacture slug throwers, Plasma weapons are
presumably restricted as well as being expensive.  If, by comparison, slug
throwers cost the same as water pistols today, then this might explain their
survival.

On another issue: what do you think of HEAP small arms ammo.  It seems daft
to allow even 4mm Gaus weapons to fire effective HEAP rounds.  I cannot
quite make the leap that technology would require.  From current practices
it seems impossible.  Could a HEAP round that small (half a gram in weight?)
really contain enough energy to penetrate and damge? I realise that they are
allowed in FF&S1, but is the physics up to it?

Colin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 18:21:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: TL 15 100 dt Circular NPAW Bay

Courtesy Excel 97, experimental spreadsheet.

Can anyone tell me if it is legal to use fractional laps?

Thanks,
Clark

            
Torus Radius:  5.053 m     
Path Length (L):  31.74893536 m     
Tunnel Diameter (D): 3.96861692 m     
Energy Per Lap (Elap):  1008  MJ    
Number of Laps (N):  1.27        
Tunnel Area (A):  3.937480064 m2       
Effective Length (Leff):  31.74893536 m     
Effective Focal Area (AF): 15.74992025 m2       
Damage Modifier (DM):   1        
Theoretical Effective Range (Reff): 500043.2001 km
Discharge Energy (DE):  1135.958309 MJ
Damage Value at Reff:   239   
ROF:  3  shots / minute
Input Energy:  12801.6  MJ
Power Required:   640.08   MW
Tunnel Volume: 785.4660219 m3
Tunnel Mass:   589.0995164 tons
Tunnel Cost:   78.54660219 MCr
Computer Multiplier: 0.2   
Crew Requirements:   2  
Workstation Volume:  14 m3
Workstation Mass: 0.4   tons
Workstation Price:   0.004 MCr
Short Range:   500000   km
Beam Pointer Volume: 5  m3
Beam Pointer Mass:   5  tons     
Beam Pointer Price:  0.5   MCr      
Accumulator Volume:  448.056  m3    
Accumulator Mass: 896.112  tons     
Accumulator Price:   4.48056  MCr      
Bay Surface Area: 80 m2       
Subtotal Volume:  1252.522022 m3    
Bay Mechanism Volume:   145.5377369 m3    
Bay Mechanism Mass:  145.5377369 tons     
Bay Mechanism Power: 0.727688684 MW    
Total Bay Volume: 1398.059759 m3    
Total Bay Mass:   1636.149253 tons     
Total Bay Power:  640.8076887 MW    
Total Bay Price:  83.53116219 MCr      

Range         500000       1000000      2000000      4000000
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Intensity     1135.958309  284.0386529  71.00966321  17.7524158
Damage Value  239          120          60           30




- --
"Remember, if you see a flash:  It's Duck!  And Cover!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:51:35 EST
From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Travlist: re- Jump hyper limits (aka jump even horizons)

In a message dated 98-04-02 19:50:40 EST, you write:

<< Why didn't you just jump insystem perpendicular to the plane of the
ecliptic?
 Gravitationally speaking you just couldn't get within 100 diameters of the
sun,
 the rest of the planets would be easy to get to, relatively speaking.  >>

simple actually... 

by popping in at the nadir and ninith points you have a greater chance of
missing the point of destination by a simple one or two micro points in your
navigation programs...    

my gamesmaster was some one who was really big on the space program and
followed the intersteller probes we have sent out (his pilot for the f-14 he
was the mechanic for is now an astronaut and i think he's gone to work for
nasa as a grease monkey for them now)...   he explained the entire think out
to us in a two hour discussion where we asked questions and he explained the
stuff out....

besides it made game play much more fun...

richard

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:58:44 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero

Hello,
>From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
...
>and I thought the econ parts of M:0 and PE were terrible.  The plan for 
>the trading guild, or whatever it was, for starting wars on planets so 
>that they could sell weapons was ridiculous.  Not only was it immoral and 
>everything the Imperium should be against, it was bad business.  You can 
>rob a man once, but you can trade with him forever.  The theme of 
...

  The contact rules listed serve several functions very effectively;
- - the new world transfers as much of its wealth to the 3I as possible,
enriching the merchants who bankroll the 3I's expansion.
- - the world is eliminated as a medium-term military or economic threat.
- - the option exists of maintaining the world as a low cost producer, if
you ignore the energy costs/production controversy in the background.

>ultimately megacorps need _consumers_ and that means that _developing_ the 
...
 
  It doesn't follow that the equilibrium result has _lots_ of consumers.
Mind you, good (self-comsistent, that is) explanations for the TL spread
in the later 3I are hard to come by.

...
>ports of some xenophobic pocket empire with his IN Cruisers.  The 19th
>Century is replete with examples of vast commercial and military empires. 
>Miliu Zero has some of the trappings of the period with dueling and
>nobles, so why not take further inspiration from the period?

  Arguably, it did. The 3I has no concern for anyones wishes but its own,
which is quite faithful to the great expanders of trade in the 19th C.

  Certainly the material in M:0 can be decided by the ref to be propaganda
for one side or the other, or reality can be a bit more complicated than
that. Some nice potential would be in having different players or characters
react differently as they see things in a different light (or not) as time
passes and things become more clear.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:43:07 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: (Re)newbie questions

At 02:35 PM 4/2/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi all!  Back on the list after a hiatus.  I know this topic has probably
>been pounded into the ground (near-c rock pun intended), but -- what's up
>with Imperium?  From what I'm reading/hearing, they've halted production of
>everything.  Their web site has (finally) been updated, only to show that a
>lot of their planned products are unavailable "indefinitely."

Watch the Monty Python dead parrot sketch.  Subsitute the words "Game
Company" for "parrot."  That'll bring you up to speed.

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:52:55 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: IG Archive!

At 04:40 PM 4/2/98 -0800, you wrote:
>While the IG web page is still up, one of you beautiful Traveller web
>site holders out there should grab all of the info contained therein and
>place it on your web site.
>
>I'd hate to see the complete listing of TNS articles from all of
>Traveller's history lost when they stop maintaining the site.

The TNS stuff through 1112 has been snagged for my campaign, to be added to
the stuff I write myself.  I also grabbed the links page.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:51:13 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Gridlore Technologies press release

At 08:48 PM 4/2/98, you wrote:
>Moin Douglas,
>
>> Does the name "Lunion" mean anything?
>
>	The mudhole Next to Ianic. Has a nice fresh air, and unlike
>	Ianic some water also :
>
>	2124 Lunion X985000-0	- before Douglas arived
>	2124 Lunion A99575F-C	- 50 years after settlement

hey!  We Gridlorians love garlic and onions.  That takes care off the
atmospheric taint.

As for the law level...  that's not possible.  2d roll of
12-2=10+([Government]5-7)=8  The maximum law level for Lunion at that time
is 8, and the average would be 3.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:43:20 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero

At 04:49 PM 02/04/98 -0500, John Macpherson wrote:

>Aside:  And they called the RC "Star Vikings"?  The Imperium as depicted 
>	in M:0 was far more rapacious and systematically violent than the 
>	RC ever was.  If that's the way things really were then "Bring on 
>	the Rebellion!" say I.

When I finally read M:0 a few months ago and said exactly the same thing it
fell upon deaf ears. The only good thing was that the M:0 heretics didn't
bother to flame me.
 
>	Let the Civil War and the Rebellion tell the story of an empire
>grown old, cynical, and corrupt.  Milieu Zero should be about the hope of 
>new beginings.

One of M:0's authors disscussed (whose name escapes me) this with me in
email, and he said that they felt that you couldn't build an empire and
keep your hands clean (basically). I understand what he was getting at, but
i feel that they went too far emphasising the sordid bits, and the IISS's
contact proceedures revolted me. They make the IISS just a MegaCorp's
resource prospecting arm.

After reading Melieu Zero my opinion is that the 3I is John Bull Company
writ large, complete with the use of their own citizens death's as a means
of making profit.

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 19:21:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

In mail you write:

 "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> writes:
> The phone company has replaced
>people behind counters connecting phone wires on request with 'robotic'
>versions of the same exact thing, at a far greater cost than the salaries
>of the operators.  Many companies have done similar things in real life...

I suggest that you look into the matter more carefully. It is flat out
*impossible* to run the US phone system without automated switching.
The required number of operators is astronomical. Remember, it's not
the number of *lines*, it's the number of *interconnections*. And that
goes up *geometrically* as the number of lines goes up.

One area code has 672 possible exchanges, which have 10,000 numbers
each. That's 6,720,000 lines per area code. Just inside that one area
code the number of possible interconnections is at least 6,720,000
squared (possibly factorial, I'm not going to take the time to
determine which). That's 45,158,400,000,000 connections. And one
switchboard position can handle (being *very* generous) 1000
connections. That means you'd need 45,158,400,000 operators. 45
*billion*. And that's for *one* area code.

So it wasn't a matter of what it cost to automate, it was a matter of
automation was the *only* way to keep the system running after it
reached a certain size.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 19:31:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

In mail you write:

>> From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
>>
>> Sorry, but no. The automated switches are far cheaper than the cost of
> the
>> _huge_ numbers of operators you'd need to do the whole thing manually. 
>> One of the pushes to develop automated switching was the shortage of
>> operators.  When I was training at Bell Northern, we saw copies of
> reports
>> where executives were worrying about having to hire every single woman in
>> the country to run the telephone system!
>
> So, in the 50s, when Bell was leaning heavily into electronic switching and
> were pioneering this (with an astonishingly high cost in R&D mind you), it
> was cheaper than the operators that they already had?
>
> Sorry, but no.
>
> What you said is exactly true...  They were worrying about having to hire
> every single woman in the country to run the telephone system.  A big
> expense now destroys a bigger expense 20 years down the line.  I read this
> big book put out by Bell in the 50s about electronic switching systems, and
> the main reason (outlined in depth in the first chapter) for them switching
> over was a more efficient billing system.

Sorry, you still don't get it. The went for automation because it was
*phsyically impossible* to run the system without it. See my previous
post for an explanation of just how many operators would be required. 
(One area code requires almost ten times the current world population!)

The better billing is a nice bonus. But the *fact* is that it's
*impossible* to run a large phone system without automation.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 19:36:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial ID (number thingy)

In mail you write:

> Here, in France, our social security code goes like this :
>
> 1    68    03    30    189    252
>
> 1st digit for gender (1=male, 2=female) could be expanded in the 3I to
> include alpha and beta males and females for species having these
> differenciations, and preceded by an other digit (or letter) for the
> race : 1 for human (obviously more numerous), 2 for aslan, 3 for vargr
> .....
>
> 2nd, 3d and 4th numbers for year, month and day of birth

Not good. This virtually *guarantees* that anyone more than 100 years
old will have a number that's a duplicate! You need 3-4 digits for the
year.

At least you use "birth rank". Comp.risks has reported numerous
examples of ID codes being assigned based on things like a combo of:

1. date of birth
2. name
3. city of birth

And of course they run into problems when two "John Smith"s are born on
the same day in the same (large) city.

Your only problem is assigning a unique birth rank. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 19:52:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 10:30:41 +0800 Colin Hutchinson
> <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> writes:
>>One of the oddest things about TNE was the RC.  Here we have space 
>>faring
>>people whose small arms remains in the dark-ages.
>
> One thing to consider though.  Slug throwers are more efficient in the
> use of resources than energy weapons, plus they are obviously effective. 
> With rocket cartridges, you even get a weapon that works in zero-g.  I
> don't think a star faring race with slug throwers is so odd.  Just look
> at CT, lead flying everywhere!!

Rocket cartridges aren't necessary for zero-g use. And they have marked
drawbacks (such as being nearly useless at close range). You just need
training, or a compressed gas cartridge as part of the magazine so that
the gun can self-compensate.

I remember a scene in "Triplanetary" (The first book in E.E. Smiths's
"Lensman" series), where an officer with lots of zero g experience has
sabotaged the gravity generator in a pirate base and is using a high
caliber pistol with explosive rounds to manuever himself to a hatch
where he can enter the ship he plans to escape in.

Not only is he using the gun for manuevering, but he's picking targets
to cause the most damage! Sure, that means that his path zig-zags a
lot, but that just makes him harder to hit!

<grin>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 19:10:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A question

In mail you write:

> On 31 Mar 98, Leonard Erickson disseminated foul capitalist 
> propaganda by writing:
>
> <snip>
>> > That is, what will happen with the remains of the poor, pulverised
>> > Earth? I guess they will form an asteroid ring, but how fast? 
>> 
>> It takes an *astonishing* amount of energy to completely disrupt a
>> planet. So rather than an asteroid belt, you'll have some material
>
> Hmmm... Any idea how much? Just an approximate order of magnitude 
> will do.

You have to boost all of the mass to it's mutual escape velocity. I
forget the calculation, but as I recall it comes to something like the
total output of the sun for a significant period (month? year?).

>> kicked to system escape velocity, and some kicked into solar orbits.
>> But most will not reach escape velocity for the planets remnants.
>> Thus the pieces will fall back in a quite short time (months at
>> most). 
>> 
>> So you'll have run the planet thru a mixmaster, and killed
>> everything on it, but it'll still be there.
>
> So, the Earth will still be there. However, I've got to completely 
> obliterate a planet that's been taken over by smart fog, and I'll 
> guess it'll take a lot of near-c rocks to do it. (preferably blowing 
> most of the material into the sun)

In that case, bombardment is *not* the way to go. Too much chance of
kicking *intact* chunks free. Think of it like a disease victim. You
don't blow them up, you incinerate them.

So you want to *melt* the planet. You might try controlled solar flare,
massive lasers, or some mega particle beams. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 23:31:14 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Jump Drives... no really, read this.

I've been working on a ship design and I came across this puzzle.
I know a ship can carry others through jump space, i.e. battleriders.
But can a ship be designed so that its jumpdrive can be linked to
another?
Obviously this is a specialty case, but is there canon to point one
direction or the other?
Please explain your opinion of the possibility one way or the other.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:07:29 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: piracy

> From: Legate <legate@futureone.com>
>
> Same deal with Palladium, but they cost only around $20, so why does it
> cost more for IG to do?

A wild guess?  If I go into a Waldenbooks at a major downtown shopping mall
(the Gallery to those familiar with Philadelphia), I can find Palladium
books.  This suggests to me a far wider distribution network, and, quite
possibly a larger print run.

> > As far as that aspect goes, you get your money's worth.
> Yes, but at these prices can you afford it.

Maybe, maybe not :^).  I was just commenting that as far as the physical
aspect goes, you'll have it for a good while.  Specifically, the binding is
holding together really well on my copy, though I use it often...

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #356
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, April 3 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 357



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TNE
Chirper Question
Re: Traveller's future
Re: CT and T?
Re: CT and T?
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: (Re)newbie questions
Heavy Gear question
Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: Traveller's future
Re: CT and T?
Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: Traveller's future
Re: IMTU Codes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:10:58 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: TNE

> From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
> 
> Here's an except from 'Absent Friends' Lisa's companions are defending a
> pre-Collapse medical installation from the barbarians. She's been sent for
> help and arrives as the final assault goes in. It the gear is smashed, with
> it goes the only hole of a vaccine for the Killer 'Flu.....

<huge heaping gobs of snippage>

Very cool excerpt.  Captured my view of the New Era very closely.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:16:19 -0600
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Chirper Question

Is there any age limit on when Chirpers (uncasted Droyne) can become
Droyne? (Canon-ically speaking, that is).

I only have Twilight's Peak, which is sort of vague (just says they're
casted when they come of age, which is 12, I guess).  I believe I remember
that one T:TNE product mentioned dropping coyns on Chirper reservations on
some planet to help overthrow the government, which leads me to believe
it's possible (ie, Chirpers aren't stuck being Chirpers, though they do
have a cooler name than Droyne)

Thanks

                  Jeremy



            

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 00:14:37 -0500
From: Bill Rutherfotd <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's future

At 07:30 PM 4/2/98 -0500, Dave wrote:
<Snip>...
>	I guess my wishlist really is a wishlist, because at the top of it
>is

Ah, but what a fine wish it is!



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 00:32:20 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

NOTE: This is not meant to be offensive, I am just very blunt and to the
point.

<H1><rant><B>

> 
> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:31:15 -0500
> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
> Subject: Re: CT and T?
> 
> > From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
> >
> > I have very little knowledge about marketing. Perhaps today's market wants
> > art work (form) and not content (substance). I do not buy a rule book or
> > supplement because of the wonderful art work or graphics. The fact that
> > price of the book is adversely affected by the addition of fancy art work
> > deters me from purchasing the product.
> 
> Hmmm...  You say it as though there's no choice, like, if you have artwork
> then you don't have substance, or vice versa, which is bull.

No that is not what I am saying. What I do not want is to pay out the A**
for a book with great glossy pictures. I just purchased the GURPS basic set
3rd edition revised for  $ 22.00 tonight. 
As I figured it is based on an old game system , The Fantasy Trip Melee and
TFT Wizard, that Steve Jackson developed (published by Metagaming) around
1977. I played that game before D&D BTW.

The GURPS book is 256 pages PACKED with information that an information
pack-rat like myself really loves! The outside cover is "attention
getting". The art work on the inside, however, looks like something that my
3 year old and I would draw with crayons on the back of a toy box. Which is
fine by me. If I want art work I will pay for it separately from my games.
(I do collect actual art work such as paintings and religious figures from
India and Mexico.)

The basic Traveller 4 book is 190 pages long with really, really nice art
work that I am paying WAY too much for. ~ $ 35.00 plus tax (at my local
game store which had to special order it).

Both publications contain substance and GURPS has a utilitarian form that
packs 250,000+ words into it. More bang for the buck! Which is what really
counts.
 
> Artwork is a big part of good formatting.  It breaks up the monotony of the
> page, and gives the eye some rest from pages and pages of dense text. 

Have you ever read an engineering text? They s*** filled with formulas and
monotony. I used to study them late at night when I could not sleep. 5-10
minutes and ZZZZZZ....

BUT when I was awake I got all of the information that I needed. With no
distractions. Although a few naked women in my Differential Equations and
Matrix Theory book might have helped :-P !

> Artwork also provides an important visual reference to GMs and players
> alike and helps to define what the look and feel of the world is. 

Anyone with half a brain can visualize weapons, star ships and the like.
The old CT drawings were good enough. That is __why _we_ role_ play__
because we are more __creative_ and_ imaginative than the average person
who needs to watch 6-8 hours of  TV  a day to break out of their pea sized
brains and experience something wonderful. "My God it's full of stars..."

> 
> The old LBBs were hardly cheap by any standard though.  The LBBs were 5
> bucks a pop in the early 80s, and were almost all around 48 pages in a
> half-sized book. 

$5 was not that much money back then, at least to me.

 AD&D modules were between about 5 and 7 dollars, slightly
> fewer pages, full sized, with color artwork on the covers, and plenty of
> interior art, plenty of maps, and printed interior covers (although the
> covers were not bound directly to the book).

That art work was primitive. I also bought those as well. But certainly not
for the "art work". I also did not get racked over the coals for the cost
of TSR's great "art work".

> 
> If you mean no artwork, then that is a big shot in the foot for Traveller. 
> Keep in mind that the original 3 LBBs had no artwork because no artwork was
> needed at that point in the game's design.

Why ? It was a relatively new game back then! why didn't it need customers
then ? 

Are we so simple minded today that we need to be sucked into a game with
"BY ME style art work" ? 

IF that is the case -- put naked or near naked women on the cover, fill the
pages with it (real futuristic stuff - I forget the artists name but a lot
of his stuff is on the web) and every kid, guy and art lover will snap up
every volume that they can get their hands on.

>  As time went on, the GDW people
> added artwork as needed.

Was it really needed? I was hooked on Traveller beacuse of the system not
the swell pictures.

>  I firmly believe that what Traveller needs is new players.  

This I agree 100 % with! I am trying to generate interest by running my
game at the local game store. Prior to the announcement I was bugging Phil
to get some Traveller books for his store. I had 2 kids miss Saturday's
game because of a "Magic -The Gathering Tournament".

Perhaps role playing is going down the tubes and card games are rising up
in its stead. 1/3 of Phil's store are card games and the kids snap em' up
like they are water in Nevada. Perhaps Marc needs to make a "Traveller -
The Rebellion" card game with little inserts telling the kids to try the
role playing game.


</rant></H1></B>


Sorry for the rant but I feel like something good is about to slip away. A
very old and dear friend.
Any thoughts on how to save Traveller ? Sniff, Sniff.

GRUPS is neat but it is NOT TRAVELLER even if they say it is.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 00:47:45 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

Wizards of the Coast will not publish Traveller unless their Space game
Alternity or whatever they call it flops the way that TSR's Star Frontiers
did.

Check out the new Dragon magazine for a sneak preview.

Why don't we put some undead semi-naked  vampire chicks and other
supernatural monsters in the Traveller universe. That way those pasty white
Goth kids will start buying and playing "Traveller the Masquerade".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:30:14 +1000
From: scout <scout@microtech.com.au>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

At 08:58 1/04/98 -0800, you wrote:
>At 12:32 PM 4/1/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>It seems T4 didn't sell as well as we'd like.  Why?
>>
>>- Its yet another version of the rules?
>
>Not really.  With all due respect to the TNE contingent, many people
>welcomed the return to a rules set based on CT.

Douglas, the rules were not based on CT. I have owned CT and could not see
how T4 could be described as a 'return'. Thanks for the respect tho.. :)

I must say I share most of the rest of your opinions described in your post...

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:17:47 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: (Re)newbie questions

> From: Brian Mays <bmays@genscope.com>
> 
> Hi all!  Back on the list after a hiatus.  I know this topic has probably
> been pounded into the ground (near-c rock pun intended), but -- what's up
> with Imperium?  From what I'm reading/hearing, they've halted production of
> everything.  Their web site has (finally) been updated, only to show that a
> lot of their planned products are unavailable "indefinitely."

Imperium is gone.  Apparently, they will not be publishing anymore Trav
materials ever.

> For reference, I was last on the list as discussion of GURPS Traveller was
> beginning to surface.

GURPS Traveller is do out this summer.  Loren Wiseman appears to be hard at
work on it.  It has the pontential to be truly promising, despite the fact
that many are up in arms over its departure from canon.

Marc Miller is/was at work on T4.1, a revised version of the T4 rules. 
He's also shopping for a new publisher for the Traveller line.  As time
goes by I'm sure we'll be informed more fully.

> Any info would be appreciated!

Hope this brief synopsis helps some!  :^)

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:34:43 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Heavy Gear question

> From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
> 
> What about Dream Pod Nine for T5?  Their Heavy Gear line is also more
> wargame than role-playing game, so less fratricide potential.  The
> mechanics are simple, robust, and reasonably close to much of what T4.1
> samples Marc Miller has posted to this list, if it were desirable to make
> the two compatible.  They are a small company, granted, but Mr. Miller is
> doing the writing on T4.1. Their graphics are *extremely* accurate
> representations of what is covered in the text, whether the text itself is
> realistic or not.  Their layouts are among the highest quality available on
> the shelves today.
> 
> Heck with it - what's their email address....?

They do have amazing layout, don't they.  Have you had any experience with
it?  What's it like?  Is it worth buying?  I was considering it a little
while ago, never got around to it though.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:44:45 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> 
> Sorry, you still don't get it. The went for automation because it was
> *phsyically impossible* to run the system without it. See my previous
> post for an explanation of just how many operators would be required. 
> (One area code requires almost ten times the current world population!)

Pretty obvious actually.  I'm not disputing this, just regurgitating what I
read in one of Bell Lab's books, that's all.

> The better billing is a nice bonus. But the *fact* is that it's
> *impossible* to run a large phone system without automation.

At the time this book was written, I'm not entirely sure they were
expecting the phone system to blow up like it did.  There were alot of
things along the line that happened that they didn't really predict.

Don't get me wrong, I know that it is impossible to run a behemoth like the
modern phone system without automation.  I'm just not entirely convinced
that's why they switched over, or at least not initially.  

It was only 35 - 40 years ago that, in the heart of a major East Coast
city, my mother's house was tied into a "party line" that encompassed her
entire city block.  Now, there are probably...  Let's see...  At least 30 -
40 lines in the same city block today.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:55:42 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> 
> I suggest that you look into the matter more carefully. It is flat out
> *impossible* to run the US phone system without automated switching.
> The required number of operators is astronomical. Remember, it's not
> the number of *lines*, it's the number of *interconnections*. And that
> goes up *geometrically* as the number of lines goes up.

I don't doubt this.  I don't think I stated a reason on this post, I just
stated that they did it, despite the great cost.

> One area code has 672 possible exchanges, which have 10,000 numbers
> each. That's 6,720,000 lines per area code. Just inside that one area
> code the number of possible interconnections is at least 6,720,000
> squared (possibly factorial, I'm not going to take the time to
> determine which). That's 45,158,400,000,000 connections. And one
> switchboard position can handle (being *very* generous) 1000
> connections. That means you'd need 45,158,400,000 operators. 45
> *billion*. And that's for *one* area code.

Each switchboard position, when human operators did all the work, could
handle 10,000 local ports (this was the origin of the exchange).  Some of
the ports were connectors to the other exchanges (whose operators were in
the same building), and I think a very small number were used for long
distance calls.

I don't dispute that today's phone system would be impossible without
automation.  In fact, I believe several times I stated something similar in
regards to automation.  Automation allows fewer people to do far, far more
work.

> So it wasn't a matter of what it cost to automate, it was a matter of
> automation was the *only* way to keep the system running after it
> reached a certain size.

As I said, this book from the 50s stated that their R&D was devised for
another reason.  It was from Bell Labs, and I'll believe it.  Once they
started to implement automation, the amount of lines that they could add
grew, and the phone system grew with it.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 00:05:57 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller's future

David J. Golden wrote:

>         I guess my wishlist really is a wishlist, because at the top of it
> is
>
>         GDW2 (Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank Chadwick ...)

Well, if you're going to say that, I'd have to vote for DGP2, then.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 01:53:50 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

> From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
> 
> NOTE: This is not meant to be offensive, I am just very blunt and to the
> point.

No problem.  I'll try not to take offense, but I'll make no promises :^)

> No that is not what I am saying. What I do not want is to pay out the A**
> for a book with great glossy pictures. I just purchased the GURPS basic set
> 3rd edition revised for  $ 22.00 tonight. 
> As I figured it is based on an old game system , The Fantasy Trip Melee and 
> TFT Wizard, that Steve Jackson developed (published by Metagaming) around
> 1977. I played that game before D&D BTW.

I don't want to pay out the ass for glossy pictures either.  I'd rather
that glossy pictures stay out of the book entirely (especially when the
same glossy pictures were used as front and rear pictures for each book). 
I'm not defending IG by any means here.

> The GURPS book is 256 pages PACKED with information that an information
> pack-rat like myself really loves! The outside cover is "attention
> getting". The art work on the inside, however, looks like something that my
> 3 year old and I would draw with crayons on the back of a toy box. Which is
> fine by me. If I want art work I will pay for it separately from my games.
> (I do collect actual art work such as paintings and religious figures from
> India and Mexico.)

The outside cover of the recent edition looks amazingly like an IG
Traveller book from a distance.  A style that I don't like.  I do think
that the interior artwork of the previous edition was decent, even if most
of it was recycled from earlier SJG products.

> The basic Traveller 4 book is 190 pages long with really, really nice art
> work that I am paying WAY too much for. ~ $ 35.00 plus tax (at my local
> game store which had to special order it).

35 bucks?  That's 5 bucks more than the cover price.

> Both publications contain substance and GURPS has a utilitarian form that
> packs 250,000+ words into it. More bang for the buck! Which is what really
> counts.

But, GURPS also uses the pictures to break up the text, something that IG
did with only a couple of books.

> Have you ever read an engineering text? They s*** filled with formulas and
> monotony. I used to study them late at night when I could not sleep. 5-10
> minutes and ZZZZZZ....

Yes.  I have poked through a few at different times in my life :^) 

> BUT when I was awake I got all of the information that I needed. With no
> distractions. Although a few naked women in my Differential Equations and
> Matrix Theory book might have helped :-P !

It's not a matter of not getting the information that you need.  It's a
matter of trying to get somebody to decide to purchase the book in
question.

> Anyone with half a brain can visualize weapons, star ships and the like.
> The old CT drawings were good enough. That is __why _we_ role_ play__
> because we are more __creative_ and_ imaginative than the average person
> who needs to watch 6-8 hours of  TV  a day to break out of their pea sized
> brains and experience something wonderful. "My God it's full of stars..."

Originally I set out to be an artist in life.  I was gifted with a slightly
above average ability to make pictures.  I'm being a little modest about
it, but basically, I'm a pen and ink artist and I'm pretty good.  When I'm
running a game, I don't mind being able to point to something and say,
"This is what the armor they're wearing looks like."  Anyone can visual
these things, true...

There's a difference between the GURPS basic rules, which are a generic
system for use by anyone, and Traveller, which _is_ a history and a
background.  A visual reference is a visual reference.  Do Traveller ships
look like the Enterprise?  The Millenium Falcon?  An Imperial Star
Destroyer?  The Battlestar Galactica?  The Discovery?  What?  No.  None of
the above.  That's why Fighting Ships had a visual reference for each of
the ships.  Something that you can point to and say, "This is the ship that
is breaking off for pursuit!"  The classic Scout/Courier, for example, is
one of the most readily identifiable visual references for Traveller

> $5 was not that much money back then, at least to me.

$5 was one half of the cost of an AD&D hardcover like the player's handbook
or the monster manual, even though it was less than half the size of either
book.

> That art work was primitive. I also bought those as well. But certainly not
> for the "art work". I also did not get racked over the coals for the cost
> of TSR's great "art work".

The artwork was primative, but the old AD&D stuff used it as fully as
possible to create a visual reference.  Kobolds, whether drawn by Otus
(whose stuff is hardly "primative") or by Sutherland, or by Dee, were cut
from the same mold.  Same for orcs, and goblins, and red dragons...  And
many, many creatures from AD&D.  A pciture, when used properly, is worth a
thousand words.

> Why ? It was a relatively new game back then! why didn't it need customers
> then ? 

1.) Traveller's Boxed Set LBBs needed no artwork because very little was
described that needed any detailed description.  There was no background,
so there was no need for a visual reference either.

2.) The dynamic of the role-playing industry back then was nothing like it
is today.  Back then, the industry was smaller, and there was less of a
distribution network.  Very few hobby shops had a wide selection of RPGs. 
Though the industry was smaller, the gamers were cut from a different cloth
as well.  A role-playing gamer back then was far more likely to know when a
new game was coming out.  The industry was more supportive and less
competitive.  Nowadays, your average comic book store will have a pretty
decent number of RPGs.  I can go to many places to do my RPG shopping,
whereas throughout the 80s, there were only three places that I could hit.

> Are we so simple minded today that we need to be sucked into a game with
> "BY ME style art work" ? 

I will freely admit that a good visual presentation is important to whether
I will buy a role-playing book or not.  This is what I was saying.  A good
visual presentation shows that the book was either done by professionals,
or done by those who liked the game enough to make it look like they were
professionals.

BTRC, with the recent edition of 3G3, for example, used completely
minimalist printing techniques to make a book that looks professional, is
well laid out, and stands out from other books on the shelves.  It caught
my attention and I peeked through it many times before buying it, but
eventually, I bought it.  It's a wonderful and extremely useful resource
for RPGs, and it comes in a pretty package.  If it had, say, the layout of
FF&S2, I wouldn't have bought it until I had heard alot about it and
decided I couldn't be without it. 

> IF that is the case -- put naked or near naked women on the cover, fill the
> pages with it (real futuristic stuff - I forget the artists name but a lot
> of his stuff is on the web) and every kid, guy and art lover will snap up
> every volume that they can get their hands on.

No need to do that.  Put a decent rendering on the cover, make an
impressive logo that stands out from the books that are next to it on the
shelves.  Study the books on the shelves to see what colors would properly
stand out.  The book will have a better chance of selling than a book with
cover paintings from an old Sci-Fi author on a black background with red
trim.

> Was it really needed? I was hooked on Traveller beacuse of the system not
> the swell pictures.

That's great.  Again, the dynamic of the audience was entirely different
back then.  Take note that comic book stores often carry a decent selection
of role-playing games.  This should give you some hint that there is more
than a little crossover.

Sorry.  The days are truly gone when you could do what GDW did, or do what
many of the earliest game designers did.  D&D's original 3 tan booklet set
would not sell today, yet it completely revolutionized the game world a
quarter century ago...

> This I agree 100 % with! I am trying to generate interest by running my
> game at the local game store. Prior to the announcement I was bugging Phil
> to get some Traveller books for his store. I had 2 kids miss Saturday's
> game because of a "Magic -The Gathering Tournament".

That's a commendable effort  :^)  Sorry to hear that you lost players to a
CCG.

> Perhaps role playing is going down the tubes and card games are rising up
> in its stead. 1/3 of Phil's store are card games and the kids snap em' up
> like they are water in Nevada. Perhaps Marc needs to make a "Traveller -
> The Rebellion" card game with little inserts telling the kids to try the
> role playing game.

Do you think the company that makes the most money from CCGs would have
bought out TSR if this was the case?  At this point in time, the two
industries really do need each other to some extent.  Not surprisingly, all
of the CCG players that I can think of are also avid roleplayers.

RPGs have some staying power, as long as the industry as a whole does it
right.  It seems that many companies are doing it right at the moment, and
from what I've seen, the current crop of RPGs is more diverse and
interesting then I can ever remember,

> Sorry for the rant but I feel like something good is about to slip away. A
> very old and dear friend.

Don't be sad.  It'll be back.

> Any thoughts on how to save Traveller ? Sniff, Sniff.

Yeah.  Make a viable product that sells.

> GRUPS is neat but it is NOT TRAVELLER even if they say it is.

Apparently, that's a point for debate that I won't get into at the moment. 
;^)

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 02:18:31 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this

Hiya.
> But can a ship be designed so that its jumpdrive can be linked to
> another?
> Obviously this is a specialty case, but is there canon to point one
> direction or the other?

Yup. A reference to this is right in Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 35:

	"If the bridge or computer is out, another ship may be linked to it 
for jump; the linking ship must have a computer and bridge at least 
as large as that of the damaged ship, and linking takes one week. 
Both move at the jump rate of the slowest ship and maneuver is 
impossible while linked."

TCS goes on to say that the link is rather fragile and a role for 
failure must be made each week. A failure in the link means that 
you'd have to spend another week re-linking the two ships. However, 
it goes also says:

	"Ships whose power plants  or j-drives have been destroyed must 
either be transported  to a starport inside a tender or must be 
repaired in place."

That's the only canon reference that I know of for sure concerning 
this. I think there might be something in one of the Supplements 
(Traders and Gunboats?) that mentions a "Jump Shuttle" for X-Boats 
that hooks on to the rear of the boat to allow for jump capability.

Talk to ya later,

Bob Kondrk
- ------------------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ
dss2@erols.com

Webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:54:47 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

>Not only is he using the gun for manuevering, but he's picking targets
>to cause the most damage! Sure, that means that his path zig-zags a
>lot, but that just makes him harder to hit!
>
><grin>

How much more massive is the shooter (in Vaccsuit?) than the bullet he is
firing? Take this factor and divide the muzzle velocity with it to reach a
quick and dirty delta V per shot. Say the guy weighs 100 kg, bullet weighs
10 grams and muzzle velocity is 500 m/s. This give us about 5 cm/s in
deltaV per shot.

If 5 cm/s per shot is all the zigzagging he'll muster then I'd say he's
dead before he reaches the escape. The problem of recoil in zero-G is IMHO
extremely overrated in RPGs just as brawling and wrestling is underrated.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:57:04 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Traveller's future

>        I guess my wishlist really is a wishlist, because at the top of it
>is
>
>        GDW2 (Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank Chadwick ...)

Yeah, GDW Pro with Frank Chadwick, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, the furry
Keith brothers, John M Ford, Poul Anderson, Moebius, Ridley Scott etc


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 21:18:02 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: IMTU Codes

>Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:54:37 -0500
>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: IMTU Codes

>How do you translate this stuff?  I can figure out most of the
>abbreviations, but not all.  plus and minus signs seem clear except when
>used more than once.  The @ and ! symbols loses me.  Any help?

>IMTU Code
>  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
>  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

Since this is mine:
tc = Classic Traveller, tm = MegaTraveller, tn = Traveller - The New Era
t4 = 4th ed Traveller tg = GURPS:Traveller ru = rules use, ge = gearheadness
3i = 3rd Imperium, jt = jump torpedoes, au = automation, st = the GURPS
variant timeline, ls = Life support costs, pi = Piracy, kk = K'kree,
hi = Hiver, as = Aslan, va = Vargr, dr = Droyne, so = Solomani, zh = Zhodani
vi = Vilani, da = Darrians, si = Syleans, lu = Luriani, su = Suerrat,
ge = Geonee.

My fav rules are T4, I really disliked TNE, I'm not sure about GURPS:T but I
don't like the sound of it (:*>), rules use and gearheadedness depends on my
mode; I usually ignore the 3rd I, but sometimes I don't, I'm not sure about
jump torps, I not too hot on automation, I like the new G:T timeline, I
think Traveller Life support costs are too high, and I'm not too keen on
piracy. I'm fanatic about the Luriani (:*>); I'm not quite so fanatic about
the Droyne or Solomani but they're up there too; I quite like the K'kree, the
Vargr, Zhodani and Suerrat; the Aslan, Darrian and Geonee are okay; I'm not
a great fan of the hiver and I dislike the Vilani; and I don't know enough
about the Syleans to make any opinions.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge
****************************************************************************
"Avec vous votra limpet mine?"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #357
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Friday, April 3 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 358



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The last time...
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #352
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff
Artemus WAS Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #354
Re: Milieu Zero
Re: IG Archive!
Re: CT and T?
Re: CT and T?
Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this
Re: IMTU Codes (a very humble apology)
Quick pass on a battery-powered grav tank
Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this
RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #344
re: Far Future Announcement
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)
Re: Request for Comments.......
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)
Re: canon vs. Canon
re: Hyperdrive

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 21:17:59 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: The last time...

>Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:10:29 -0800
>From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
>Subject: Re: The last time...

>On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 at 16:05:53 +0000, Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:

>>>From the TNE news service
>>(http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Traveller/news.html):

>>"The last time something like this happened was in the reign of Arbellatra
>>in 632."

>>     Oh! If that isn't a portentous comment I don't know what is!
>>          Jo

>Foreshadowing, your guide to quality literature!(tm)

>What I found even more interesting than this, though, was the Type TI
>  (or should I say TJ?) that blasted through the Capital traffic pattern
>  in an awful big hurry.  Anyone care to speculate on its cargo?  My
>  off-the-cuff guess, without doing the math on the travel time, is
>  the Real Strephon hurrying back from his review of Longbow in time
>  to speak at the Archduke's funeral...

Maybe not. Depot/Lishun (1219) is by my reckoning at least 7 jumps away from
Capital/Core (2118) at jump 6 (39 parsec in a straight line). Dulinor "died"
(are we really sure he actually died?) on 131, the TJ arrived on 212. That's
81 days, assuming 6 days per jump, thats no more than 13 jumps. So unless
Strephon started back a week early....

Hmmm, the game is afoot.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge
****************************************************************************
"Avec vous votra limpet mine?"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:49:31
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #352

>Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:12:17 +0000
>From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
>Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
>
>A minor point:
>>A jump-3 to Balpan (1819 Core)
>There is no jump-3 in Milieu:0. The whole point of Zhunastu's power was
>they invented an improved fusion (fusion+) which allowed smaller starship
>to be built, and the invented jump-2. Jump-1 is the norm, jump-2 is
>special. Jump-3 is right out.
>

Try again. Jump-2 got invented by the Vilani. Jump 3 is TL12.

Secondly, fusion+ sucks for jump-capable starships, because of it's fuel
requirements (much higher than corresponding fusion plants) and it's huge
requirements for surface area.

Thirdly, there are a small set of applications that a battery doesnt do as
well (and some fusion+ doesnt do at all. Like powered armour).

Fourthly, the critical TL12 inventions vs TL11 cultures are the Meson
Screen, the Nuclear damper, the tenfold reduction in minimum fusion power
plants and the jump-3. Compared to that list, fusion plus just doesnt get
on the run-on team.

>The biggest, general, problem with your plot outline is that you are
>forgetting the theme of Milieu:0 - "Everything is based on economics".
>
>Cleon was not McArthur, he was Bill Gates. Far too much of your proposed
>background revolves around military themes, conquest and so forth. Cleon
>was not a man with a dream of Empire, he was an opportunist looking for any
>way to promote his fortunes.
>

This isnt reflected in the background. In fact, I would argue that Cleon is
far more McArthur ... militarily, Macarthur was in the bottom tier of US
generals, but his genius was reorginising Japan after conquest into a
viable and friendly society.

This was Cleon's genius - he set up a structure where worlds could be not
just conquered, but absorbed.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:28:25 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

>Actually, to reiterate a commonly overlooked point, slug throwers, hell,
>even my 1906-vintage Smith&Wesson work perfectly well in zero-gee or
>vaccuum. gunpowder is a complete explosive, it has both oxidizer and
>oxidant, and thus needs no oxygen.

The cartridge might work but I'm not so shure about the mechanism, most
lubricants wont work in vacuum and there is the problem of metal pieces
spontaneously welding together. In short I don't think your 1906-vintage
Smith&Wesson will work in vacuum, at least not reliably, but not for the
lack of oxygen issue.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:07:42 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

> On  2 Apr 98, Michael Koehne disseminated foul capitalist propaganda 
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> by writing:
> 
> [...]
> >  Stanislaw Lem : "Golem XIV" is one of his introductions. Its
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >  written from the point of view of an AI failed to become a
> >  weapon, and contains philosophic critique about human race and
> >  the error of evolution. Its imho recommended for anybody who
> >  wants to referee TNE.

I din't know that Lem had been given such bad reputation by the soviets.
(Sorry, couldn't resist)

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:54:06 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Artemus WAS Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #354

Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com> wrote:

>Artemsus was a real bastard of an Emperor; here's a guy who while continuing
>to mouth platitudes to Cleon's ideals while starting the Pacification
>Campaigns.  And tell me this guy wasn't a Vilani on a Solomani throne...

If Cleon is Gates, Artemus is Jobs ;-)

I've more sympathy for him. This is the man who consolidated the holes that
Cleon left. He was a *real* emperor.

It was proposed here (a while ago) that Artemus was Georgian...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:10:41 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> wrote:

>At 04:49 PM 02/04/98 -0500, John Macpherson wrote:
>
>>Aside:  And they called the RC "Star Vikings"?  The Imperium as depicted
>>	in M:0 was far more rapacious and systematically violent than the
>>	RC ever was.  If that's the way things really were then "Bring on
>>	the Rebellion!" say I.
>
>When I finally read M:0 a few months ago and said exactly the same thing it
>fell upon deaf ears. The only good thing was that the M:0 heretics didn't
>bother to flame me.

Why should they? They may agree with your reading of the text.

Dom (Semi converted to M0 from CT/MT era)


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:37:23 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: IG Archive!

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> At 04:40 PM 4/2/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >While the IG web page is still up, one of you beautiful Traveller web
> >site holders out there should grab all of the info contained therein and
> >place it on your web site.
> >
> >I'd hate to see the complete listing of TNS articles from all of
> >Traveller's history lost when they stop maintaining the site.

The Not-the-IG Website still lists them (and covers even more years), I
think the AAB Website does this also, and I fitted them into a windows
Help file. I'm still searching the articles from 1125 to 1130, as I do
own only some Challenge issues from then on. Anyone got a copy/file?
 
> The TNS stuff through 1112 has been snagged for my campaign, to be added to
> the stuff I write myself.  I also grabbed the links page.

I also began writing news articles for my campaign. But you won't find
them in any file. (As a matter of fact, they're in german)

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 03:46:35 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

Don't let Wizards of the Coast get their mitts on Traveller, they'll
bury it like they did Gamma World.  They also won't allow that "putting
stuff on a CDROM" like you've been talking about.  On the Gamma World
list, we presented WotC with a petition sighned by hundreds of players,
to be allowed to do the CDROM thing, and they ignored the petition. 
We've mailed them several times.  All our messages go unanswered.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:48:07 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Chris Seamans wrote:

> There's a difference between the GURPS basic rules, which are a generic
> system for use by anyone, and Traveller, which _is_ a history and a
> background.  A visual reference is a visual reference.  Do Traveller ships
> look like the Enterprise?  The Millenium Falcon?  An Imperial Star
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oh yes, they did! Look at early drawings of the Far Trader ... But the
deckplans showed more differences then. Also, I never saw an Azhanti High
Lighning Type in any other picture.

But the Dynchia Attack Strider from 101 Vehicles seemed to me borrowed
from Star Wars 3 - I think any universe should have a two-legged one. :-)

> Destroyer?  The Battlestar Galactica?  The Discovery?  What?  No.  None of
> the above.  That's why Fighting Ships had a visual reference for each of
> the ships.  Something that you can point to and say, "This is the ship that
> is breaking off for pursuit!"  The classic Scout/Courier, for example, is
> one of the most readily identifiable visual references for Traveller

Agreed.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:52:24 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this

On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Robert Kondrk wrote:

> 	"If the bridge or computer is out, another ship may be linked to it 
> for jump; the linking ship must have a computer and bridge at least 
> as large as that of the damaged ship, and linking takes one week. 
> Both move at the jump rate of the slowest ship and maneuver is 
> impossible while linked."

[snip]

Is this the way the squadron can cross jumpspace together to make a
collective attack on its target? I remember a discussion point earlier on
the list, but do not know the outcome ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 00:03:26 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: IMTU Codes (a very humble apology)

>Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 21:18:02 +1200
>From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: IMTU Codes

>>Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:54:37 -0500
>>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>>Subject: IMTU Codes

>>How do you translate this stuff?  I can figure out most of the
>>abbreviations, but not all.  plus and minus signs seem clear except when
>>used more than once.  The @ and ! symbols loses me.  Any help?

>>IMTU Code
>>  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
>>  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge

>Since this is mine:

Sitting here reading what I wrote, it just dawned on me what I actually had
written!!!!! SO:

1) I ment the code string quoted was mine, **NOT** the actual code or
   concept.
2) I very very sincerly apologise to Robert Eaglestone who did come up with
   this idea (and thus considerable raised the stock values of several
   keyboard manufacturers).

<Andrews goes away and grovels a bit>

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge
****************************************************************************
"Avec vous votra limpet mine?"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:35:20
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Quick pass on a battery-powered grav tank

Kortank class TL9 grav tank, back of the envelope numbers

8m3 advanced IC turbine (4.8 MW) ; 10.4t, KCr 70

2000 kN TL9 AG (4 MW worth) ; 4m3, 2.6t, KCr 40

10 m3 fuel (roughly 10 hours); 10 m3, 9t

5 m3 Light Ceramic Composite ; 30t, KCr 45

30t miscellaneous components ; 30t

Total mass :75t

1840 kn vs 75t = obscene vertical gees, 160 kn vs 65t = about 2 horizontal
gees

Looks viable, and has the ability to pop up and down *really* fast. Price
is vaguely reasonable. Probably needs grav couches, but their price is a
worry. TL10 version would include 1G grav compensators.


Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 08:09:02 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this

Robert Kondrk wrote:

> Hiya.
> > But can a ship be designed so that its jumpdrive can be linked to
> > another?
> > Obviously this is a specialty case, but is there canon to point one
> > direction or the other?
>
> Yup. A reference to this is right in Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 35:
>
>         "If the bridge or computer is out, another ship may be linked to it
> for jump; the linking ship must have a computer and bridge at least
> as large as that of the damaged ship, and linking takes one week.
> Both move at the jump rate of the slowest ship and maneuver is
> impossible while linked."
>
> TCS goes on to say that the link is rather fragile and a role for
> failure must be made each week. A failure in the link means that
> you'd have to spend another week re-linking the two ships. However,
> it goes also says:
>
>         "Ships whose power plants  or j-drives have been destroyed must
> either be transported  to a starport inside a tender or must be
> repaired in place."
>
> That's the only canon reference that I know of for sure concerning
> this. I think there might be something in one of the Supplements
> (Traders and Gunboats?) that mentions a "Jump Shuttle" for X-Boats
> that hooks on to the rear of the boat to allow for jump capability.

Thanks for the info.  Now allow me to run this extrapolation.
Assuming the linkage possibility exists, the week for interconnections and
fragile nature of the link would imply that this linkage is for ships not
intended for linkage.
However, if you design a ship specifically to mate with another (both have to
be designed this way), then you could cut down on the time and fragility of the
linkage.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:18:46 -0500
From: Chris Jones <Cjones@manhattanassociates.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #344

> > > I would be interested in finding out how they determine social
> > > security
> > > numbers since the only inquiry I ever heard of received a curt and
> > > very
> > > final denial followed by a click.
> 
> There was an article published in "Details" magazine last year that 
> explained how the numbering system worked.  It did indeed have to do 
> with the year of your birth, location, etc. 
> James Pearson
> 
	[->]  I'm convinced that the location from which you obtain the
SSN is the only information given by the number.  I worked as a grocery
store cashier for a few years and saw hundreds of SSN/DLN (they are the
same in GA) on people's checks.  They almost universally started with
the number '2'.  2xx-xx-xxxx.  I actively asked people about their
numbers at the time.  When I saw one that didn't start with a 2, I would
often ask them which office they got the card from.  My 2+ year
investigation tells me that a 2 in the first digit indicates that you
got your SSN from a GA/AL office.  
	   Also of interest:  I was born in 1969, my brothers in '83 and
'85.  We all got our SSN's at the same time ( when the gov't decided to
require everyone to have one ).  All three of our SSN's are the same
except for the last digit.  They look like this:

	Brother#1 - 3/15/85 - 2xx-xx-xxx7
	Brother#2 - 12/8/83 - 2xx-xx-xxx8
	Me          - 12/24/69 - 2xx-xx-xxx9

	   Where the x's are all identical.  My conclusion is that there
are three possibilities:
	1.  The intervening numbers are meaningless.  Just sequentaily
generated.
	2.  The intervening numbers somehow indicate the date that you
received the number.
	3.  The intervening numbers somehow indicate a secret government
"family number".

	   I would vote for #1.  I find #3 unlikely, especially since I
have a different father/last name from the younger brothers.  #2 is
possible and would help to insure uniqueness, but seems unlikely.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:54:14 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Far Future Announcement

Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
They picked b.), for which I, as a roleplayer, am truly glad.  If they
picked a.) what would have happened?  The hobby would be sent back years. 
CCGs would be less likely to be picked up by comic stores and hobby shops.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One thing - I think Collectible Card Games are one of the contributors to the
downward slide (such as Marvel going bankrupt) in the comic book industry.
I realize that the comic book competition was intense, what with the 
excellent small press comics and such, but CCG's and comic books have
almost identical sales demographics. If a junior high kid is spending all of
his allowance on Magic: the Addiction, he doesn't have anything left for
Spider-Man and the 5001 different X-Men books.

I wonder how much new blood comes into RPG's due to CCG's? From what
I've seen, it's pretty much a given that RPG's killed the wargame market in 
the 1980's by sucking up all the new blood (new players who might have 
played wargames played RPG's instead). There was concern that computer
games might do the same thing to RPG's, but (at least in the earlier
pre-networked computer games) the social element was missing. 

In my community, we have people coming into some forms of RPG
(usually live-action White Wolf Vampire crap) from CCG's, an old
guard that occaisionally entices a newbie to play a wargame with
them, and a rising fad of European board games like Settlers of 
Kitarn(sp?). There's some definite separation between the
CCG and RPG camps, and a bunch of guys who run around and
hit each other with boffo swords. When we see a new person, he's
most likely to start with CCG's, next most likely to start with 
weapons LARP (Live Action Role Play, the guys with the boffo
swords), then regular RPG's. What are the rest of you seeing in
your communities?


Walt Smith
- ------------------------------------------
"I'm not stupid, I'm not expendable, and I'm NOT going!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:08:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

In mail you write:

>>As far as "upgrading the programming", that is apt to be self
>>defeating. To make the sort of decisions a human would make, the AI
>>*has* to think like a human *or* it has to have "learned". In the
>>former case the re-programming makes the AI useless. In the later, it
>>means you have to start "training" the AI all over again FROM SCRATCH,
>>and you still won't have any guarantee that it won't turn out the same
>>way.
>
> Unless of course you train the AI and then copy the result by the millions
> for a cheap and experienced AI.

Sure. That's done. The problem comes when you find out that a "new"
situation leads to a *bad* response. Then you may discover that it's
not possible to correct the erroneous response by simply "teaching" the
AI that this is a bad response. Doing so may not take, or may lead to a
*different* bad decision in known situations. It all depends on the
internal "mappings" created by training.

And unless you have a *lot* of time and resources to analyse the
mapping and figure out *how* it leads to the decisions, it's easier to
scrap the mappings and start training an AI from scratch, just make
sure to use a different training set (at the very least, you need to
change the order of the 'tests').

It's much like people. After a lifetime of experience, you may make a
decision and be told that it was wrong. Your reaction can vary from
accepting that and changing your decision making process (and possibly
becoming liable to make *other* mistakes, such as the cop who after
accidentally shooting an innocent bystander hesitates too long when
facing a crimal and gets his partner shot). Or you may decide that the
folks telling you that you are wrong are wrong. In which case you may
"act" correctly, but only when you think you are likely to be caught.
Or you may just reject the "correction" completely.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:41:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Request for Comments.......

In mail you write:

> I'd like your input on something.  I am toying with using a fiber optic
> system on ships to allow a centrally located (and thus protected) laser
> generator to discharge through focal arrays placed about the hull.  This
> would allow smaller ships to mount fewer lasers, and the focal arrays
> would use only small turrets compared with the standards and still get
> coverage they might need.  I know little about fiber optics, so please
> anyone out there comment.

The problem is that if the fibers can carry *weapons* laser energy
levels, then you can just cover your hull with them, connected to the
other side, and a laser beam would go "thru" your ship with no damage.

More realisticly, this requires *impossible* levels of transparency for
the fibers. As well as conductivity levels that are way out there.

Consider that if you send a 100 Megawatt laserbeam thru a fiber and
that fiber has a loss of *only* .001% (.00001) then it will have
absorbed 100,000,000 * .00001 = 1000 watts of energy. Now consider that
those portable electric room heaters are usually about 1000 watts. That
fiber is going to be *hot*. Red hot. And at those temps, I bet it
absorbs light a lot better, which heats it up more which makes it
absorb more which... End result is the fiber goes "poof", and deposits
a lot of laser energy in the areas it was running thru.

Weapons grade lasers *don't* mix with "transparent" materials. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 04:54:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

In mail you write:

>> As far as "upgrading the programming", that is apt to be self
>> defeating. To make the sort of decisions a human would make, the AI
>> *has* to think like a human *or* it has to have "learned".
>
> No it doesn't.  I'm not trying to make an artificial HUMAN I'm making an
> artificial intelligence.  AI's don't completely replace the human element, 
> they simply replace aspects of the human element.
>
>> In the former case the re-programming makes the AI useless.
>
> being able to learn doesn't require sentience... see old dog/new tricks
>
>> In the later, it
>> means you have to start "training" the AI all over again FROM SCRATCH,
>> and you still won't have any guarantee that it won't turn out the same
>> way.
>
> Ever hear of backups?  You don't have to build up from scratch, just the last
> uncorrupted backup.

Sorry, but *no* AI of the "learning" (as opposed to "programmed") type
works that way. It's not a matter of "uncorrupted backups". Without
analysis that takes *years*, you can't tell *which* "lesson" is
responsible for the bad result. You can try *further* training,
starting with something along the lines of "your last decision was
wrong", but in learning AIs above a certain complexity, this can and
does lead to loops where correcting one mistake causes the AI to make a
different one, and correcting the second leads back to the first. In
such cases, it's been found that you have to erase *all* the learning,
and start over, but give the "training" with the lessons in a different
order.

It's somewhat like the elementary learning program called "ANIMALS".
You give the program an Animal name, and a rule to distinguish it from
the other animals in the database. The only difference is that true
learning AIs *deduce* the rules, and sometimes the order in which the
examples are presented leads to a poor rule. And trying to correct it
can lead to a contradictory rule, which gives you the "looping"
behavior above.

This appears in AIs as simple as character recognition routines!

>> It helps to understand how real attempts at AI work. As I note above,
>> they fall into too categories. First is emulating the process humans
>> use (which requires *determining* what that process *is*). The second
>> approach is to build units capable of being "trained". And as I noted,
>> the disadvantage is that you can't predict the outcome of the training.
>> And to "correct" it, you frequently have to wipe the previous training
>> and start over. Which takes a lot of time.
>>
>> > 4) there is a programming cost, from initial programming to system 
> upgrades
>>
>> Again, the more *useful* type of AI *isn't* "programmed".
>
> I believe that a limited AI is more useful than one that can "feel" or react 
> in an irrational way.

Sorry, but you have a choice" Simple and predictable (and *not* capable
of complex decisions) or complex and unpredictable.

This has been an unpleasant (as far as many researchers are concerned)
discovery in AI research. Flexibility *requires* unpredictability, and
complexity introduces unpredictability as well.

The sort of "limited" AI you describe is no better than what's in
service *now*. Heck, even most "expert systems" are more likely to give
odd results. That's *why* they are used to *advise*, rather than
allowed to make the decisions on their own.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:50:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: canon vs. Canon

In mail you write:

> I don't want to start this thread again, but what I liked to ask in
> the mentioned movie above: how would a finger look like if you stuck it
> into a hole in vacuum?
> (in Trav words i.e.: how many damage points do you get?)

Not many. You see, on one of the shuttle flights, it *happened* (sort
of). A metal reinforcing "bar" inside a spacesuit glove shifted and
punctured the glove. It wasn't until they were on the ground and the
suit was getting cleaned that they found blood in the glove lining and
realized that the bar hadn't just "bitten" the astronaut. Instead, it
had punctured the glove, and the astronaut had been bleeding into space
until the blood clotted. As I recall. the wound was on the web between
the thumb and the rest of the hand.

Skin is *tough*. It's pretty much the same as *leather*. The processing
doesn't make leather tougher, it just keeps it from rotting. So the
finger will swell up, and a lot of sub-surface capillaries will burst,
and a lot of fluid will accumulate. The results are actually a lot like
frostbite.

An Air Force officer named Kittinger jumped from a high altitude
balloon at an altitude of something like 100,000 feet. At that
altitude, as far as effects on the body are concerned, you *are* in
space. He lost the gloves on his pressure suit when he exited the
capsule. His hands were badly swollen from the fluid that went in (due
to low pressure) and didn't leave. And the burst capillaries made them
look pretty bad. But there was no *lasting* damage. It *did* hurt like
hell though.

It's likely that the dodge in Heinlein's story "Gentlemen Be Seated"
would also work. In it a couple of people are trapped be a cave in in a
tunnel being excavated on Luna. There's enough air in the tunnel
section to last a *long* time, but the tanks on their suits won't last
very long. Then they discover that there's a leak in the tunnel. But
they don't have anything to plug it with. Or do they... The rescue
party finds one with one of his buttocks pressed against the hole.
Fatty tissue can't bleed much... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:18:38 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Hyperdrive

Rspake wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
90% of the Imps never made it past the astroid belt...  Grand Admiral
Lehnsheerr turned the Astroid Belt into a series of anti-ship batteries and
masked fighter and fastboat refeuling/resupply bases...  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just out of curiousity - how do you use a defensive "line" effectively in a 
3-D environment? Why didn't the Impies go solar system north or south
 and just go "over" or "under" Lensheerr's defense line?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #358
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Traveller-digest        Friday, April 3 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 359



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)
re: Jump Drive (no, read this...)
Re: Imperial ID (Numbers thingy)
Re: Speaking of newbie questions, I have one.
Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: Speaking of newbie questions, I have one.
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: Travlist: re- Jump hyper limits (aka jump even horizons)
Re: Hand weapons shooting down ships
Re: T4 storyline
Re: TravelrTNE's Troll and response
Re: Traveller Timeline
timeline chat
The death of IG
Re: Milieu Zero Scouts
Milieu Zero - Economics
Re: Speaking of newbie questions, I have one.
RE: IG Archive!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:38:19 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

>Sure. That's done. The problem comes when you find out that a "new"
>situation leads to a *bad* response. Then you may discover that it's
>not possible to correct the erroneous response by simply "teaching" the
>AI that this is a bad response. Doing so may not take, or may lead to a
>*different* bad decision in known situations. It all depends on the
>internal "mappings" created by training.

The same could very well be applied to a human with the wrong response. All
I'm saying is that there has toe be (handwaved up) a reason for why robots
cannot learn human knowledge through experience and then apply it AND/OR
why you cannot copy the content of the robots brain.

I'm leaning towards the explanation that you can build trainable robot
brains but they take quite a lot of time to train and unfortunately the
content of their brain cannot be copied due to the nonlinear way their
brains work. Any replication errors however small will lead to large global
changes due to the inherent unlinearness of the algorithms used.

This handwave avoid the "human minds cannot be replicated in machinery due
to some unique property" leading to religional bullshit, souls, lifeforce
etc that at least my players (and me included) would never buy.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:38:40 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Jump Drive (no, read this...)

Robert Kondrik wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's the only canon reference that I know of for sure concerning 
this. I think there might be something in one of the Supplements 
(Traders and Gunboats?) that mentions a "Jump Shuttle" for X-Boats 
that hooks on to the rear of the boat to allow for jump capability.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yeah, Traders & Gunboats (one of my favorite LnsBB's) has a Jump Shuttle
designed for the TL-12 400-tn System Defense Boat. Clamped on the
back of the SDB, looks like it blocked the SDB's thrusters.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:51:14 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Imperial ID (Numbers thingy)

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike writes:
>(How many kids are born on a Pop A planet in the same hour, anyway?)

If you have a population of 10 billion on a planet that practices zero
population growth, the average number of births per hour will equal the
average number of deaths per hour. Assuming an average life span of 80
years (700,800 hours), you get 10 billion/700,800 = 14,269 deaths/hour
and the same number of births. If the planet has a population growth of
1% pa. you'd add another 100 million per year or 143/hour. A methodical
ID system would have to account for seasonal variations though. With
planets of more than 50 billion people you may need more than 5 digits.
I think the Imperium would be fairly safe with 6 digits.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:29:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Speaking of newbie questions, I have one.

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 98-04-02 17:54:30 EST, you write:
>
> << 
>  When a ship exits from jumpspace, where in the system is it?  How much
>  control does the navigational crew have over exact insystem destination
>  when they jump?
>   >>
>
> Usually, it is 100 diameters out from the destination world, on a line which
> reaches back to the origin point.
>
> Or, the ship can come out at a plotted point, at the point with a variation 
> of
> +D-D times 50,000 km, along the line between origin and destination.

At last! A formula for "accuracy" of a jump.

Just remember that the *time* variance in the jump means that the
planet will have moved with respect to the plotted exit point (at 30
km/sec an hour difference gives about 108,000 km. A day gives 2.6
*million* km difference).

But I like it. Now we can figure things *properly*. 

Thanks!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:54:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

In mail you write:

>> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>> 
>> Sorry, you still don't get it. The went for automation because it was
>> *phsyically impossible* to run the system without it. See my previous
>> post for an explanation of just how many operators would be required. 
>> (One area code requires almost ten times the current world population!)
>
> Pretty obvious actually.  I'm not disputing this, just regurgitating what I
> read in one of Bell Lab's books, that's all.

Yeah, but it's talking about a *different* subject. Automation came
with the dial phone, and that was in the 20s or 30s in the larger cities.

> It was only 35 - 40 years ago that, in the heart of a major East Coast
> city, my mother's house was tied into a "party line" that encompassed her
> entire city block.  Now, there are probably...  Let's see...  At least 30 -
> 40 lines in the same city block today.

If that was the case then there were only 8 phones on the block. Or
maybe 16, I forget the details of the ringer setup for party lines.
It's been too long. And heck, I know folks who were on party lines as
recently as 10 years ago.  Now I have "custom ringing" which
essentially assigns me both sides of a two party line! One line, two
phone numbers.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:36:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

In mail you write:

>> One area code has 672 possible exchanges, which have 10,000 numbers
>> each. That's 6,720,000 lines per area code. Just inside that one area
>> code the number of possible interconnections is at least 6,720,000
>> squared (possibly factorial, I'm not going to take the time to
>> determine which). That's 45,158,400,000,000 connections. And one
>> switchboard position can handle (being *very* generous) 1000
>> connections. That means you'd need 45,158,400,000 operators. 45
>> *billion*. And that's for *one* area code.
>
> Each switchboard position, when human operators did all the work, could
> handle 10,000 local ports (this was the origin of the exchange).

Hardly. A single exchange had *multiple* switchboards. And they handled
a lot less than 10,000 lines. Consider. The area the operator can reach
is *only* about 70 cm tall by 140 cm wide (based on how far *I* can
reach while seated at my computer). That's 9800 cm^2. And the plugs
*alone* take up most of a square cm, ignoring things like indicator
lights. So there's no *way* those switchboards can handle 10,000 lines.

Sure a lot of exchanges in *small towns* were only one switchboard. But
that's because the exchange assigned to that own wasn't anywhere *near*
full (just like North Dakota isn't going to need an area code split in
the forseeable future).

I'll check on comp.dcom.telecom to find out how many lines a typical
*manual* switchboard handled and get back to you. But keep in mind that
it took multiple positions for things like large hotels and there's no
way those had 10,000 lines!

> Some of
> the ports were connectors to the other exchanges (whose operators were in
> the same building), and I think a very small number were used for long
> distance calls.

Some of them were ports to other "blocks" in the same exchange, others
were "interexchange trunks". 

>> So it wasn't a matter of what it cost to automate, it was a matter of
>> automation was the *only* way to keep the system running after it
>> reached a certain size.
>
> As I said, this book from the 50s stated that their R&D was devised for
> another reason.  It was from Bell Labs, and I'll believe it.  Once they
> started to implement automation, the amount of lines that they could add
> grew, and the phone system grew with it.

Bell labs didn't invent direct dialing. A fellow by the name of
Strowger did. And that was in the 1910s or 1920s. Direct *local*
dialing was around (and required!) long before that 1950s project. The
automation you read about was for long distance. I'm talking about what
is required for *local* service in large cities.

Being able to *dial* a local number is automation! You still have
operators for other things, including long distance. But the automation
of *local* calls was done for non-economic reasons. Among others,
Strowger was an undertaker and got tired of the operator directing
people to his competitor! Operators were also notoriuos for getting all
the gossip by listening in on calls and noting call patterns.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:08:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Speaking of newbie questions, I have one.

In mail you write:

> Couldn't find this in the FAQ, or in the rules.  If it's there, please
> point me to the appropriate place.
>
> When a ship exits from jumpspace, where in the system is it?  How much
> control does the navigational crew have over exact insystem destination
> when they jump?

The rules have *never* indicated how closely your exit point matches
your *planned* exit point. 

However, even if it maches exactly, the rules that say that the *time*
at which you exit varies mean that your position relative to the
destination will vary too.

Consider. Earth is moving around its orbit at about 30 km/sec. So if
you intended to come out at 100 diameters (1,280,000 km) and you are
one hour late, Earth will have moved 30*3600=108,000 km. If you are a
*day* late (or early) Earth will be 2,592,000 km from where you
expected it to be.

So you aren't going to come out all that close the where you aimed IN
RELATION TO THE PLANET. 

> How is it then routed into port (what are the possible solutions, since I
> would expect many variations to be in use)?

If it's a "developed" system, you contact Space Traffic Control and
request a course to the port. If it's too low a TL for that, you wait
until your sensors have got a good idea where you are and what's around
you (like other ships) and you then plot your own course, keeping an
eye out for any other ships.

> What if there are multiple destinations in-system?

Keep in mind that the distance between planets are so large that you'd
have plotted your exit to come out as close as is practical (100
diameters or so) to whichever planet you intended as your destination.
Other planets will be tens to hundreds of millions of km away,
depending on what orbit they are in and on *where* they are in that
orbit. 

For example, Earth is in an orbit 150 million km from the sun. Mars is
in an orbit about 240 million km from the sun. Earth takes about 365
days to complete an orbit. Mars takes around 670 days. So at closest
approach, earth and mars are about 90 million km apart. At farthest
they are 390 million km apart. And due to their orbital periods, they
don't get close all that often.

Several books have the formulas for generating systems. And they
include formulas for determining the orbital periods of the various
planets. The way I do it is I just picked an arbitary date *way* back
and said that on that date, all the planets were at 0 degrees in their
orbits. So I just have to figure how many days it's been since that
date, divide by the number of days in the orbital period, and that
gives me how many orbits (local years) it's been. Throw away the whole
number and keep the decimal. Multiply the decimal by 360 degrees and yu
have how far around the orbit from the 0 mark the planet is. Do that
for the planets the players are interested in, and then plot them on
polar coordinate graph paper (most drafting supply stores have it). You
now have a system map for that date. Next time they visit, you update
the positions.

It's easier than it sounds, and it helps give a feel for how planets
move and get across the idea that they don't just sit there at the same
spot all the time.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:59:38 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:25:15 -0700 (MST) Bruce Johnson
<johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> writes:
>Actually, to reiterate a commonly overlooked point, slug throwers, 
>hell,
>even my 1906-vintage Smith&Wesson work perfectly well in zero-gee or
>vaccuum. gunpowder is a complete explosive, it has both oxidizer and
>oxidant, and thus needs no oxygen.
>

Actually, my comment on rocket projectiles was intended to deal with
recoil in zero-g.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:02:32 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Travlist: re- Jump hyper limits (aka jump even horizons)

On Thu, 02 Apr 1998 19:47:40 -0500 Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
writes:

>
>Why didn't you just jump insystem perpendicular to the plane of the 
>ecliptic?
>Gravitationally speaking you just couldn't get within 100 diameters of 
>the sun,
>the rest of the planets would be easy to get to, relatively speaking.
>
>

True, but if you're using anything other that thrusters, you'll have an
obscene time getting into anything but a polar orbit around your target
world.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:56:11 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Hand weapons shooting down ships

On Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:32:50 +1000 andrew.smith@aihw.gov.au (Andrew Smith)
writes:

>Look at the TL16+ weapons from 'Imperial Arsenal'. The antimatter  gauss
>rifle, the antimatter plasma cannon, man-portable, and the CG rifle 

Don't laugh too hard, but a friend of mine has designed a man portable
meson gun (MPMG?).  With a tunnel length of 1 meter, it gets a range of
1,000 km!!!  Of course, he's still trying to fit the power source and
sensors into a suit of powered armor!!


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:06:27 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: T4 storyline

Jo Grant writes:
>A minor point:
>>A jump-3 to Balpan (1819 Core)
>There is no jump-3 in Milieu:0. The whole point of Zhunastu's power was
>they invented an improved fusion (fusion+) which allowed smaller starship
>to be built, and the invented jump-2. Jump-1 is the norm, jump-2 is
>special. Jump-3 is right out.

Jo, jump-3 was invented 2000 years before Milieu:0. It was in use throughout
the 2nd Imperium for at least half a millenium. Planets may lose the
industrial capacity to built jump-3 ships when it becomes economically
unsound to employ them (which, unfortunately, dosen't happen until the
pocket empire in question shrinks to less than three parsecs across;
realistically neither the Old Earth Federation, the Sylean Confederation
or Vland would have lost the need for jump-3), but the _knowledge_ isn't
going to go away. Well, some planets may lose the knowledge too, the hard
way by being physically destroyed in war, but neither Sylea nor Vland
devolved catastrophically during the Long Night. If some rich nobleman
wanted a jump-3 ship, he'd be able to get one (though he might have to be
rich enough to build his own starship yard ;-).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:11:44 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: TravelrTNE's Troll and response

>At 05:05 PM 01/04/98 -0500, Pete wrote:
>
>>And none of it was really usable (assumiong it was developed) to a
>>just-starting group of (militant) explorers, which was really about the
>>only possible types of adventures, until the Regency Sourcebook.
>
>IIRC it TNE and its supplements state over and over that Samad [smash]'n'
>Grab is
>only a small part of the Coalition's activities, and Path of Tears has a
>lot of adventure hooks in it, of which under a third are shoot 'em ups.
>What's more the not so violent scenarios often have the potential to branch
>out into other areas, and become a whole campaign, if you want them to.

True, and an imaginitive GM can do wonders, but the whole RC and Wilds
scenario or world seemed to encourage the more militant sort of adventure.
I might even say it made the militant sort of adventure more fun or more of
a possibility than the CT or MT setting typically did.  After all, if you
are adventuring in the Third Imperium it is important at all times to
escape the notice of Imperial Law Enforcement, which frowns on such
activities as bombing planets and detonating nuclear warheads.  Taking
players *outside* the Imperium helps, but that's not the point.

Those adventure hooks that were not shootemups still required a relatively
powerful (in terms of weapons) set of characters to complete.  Its ok, the
game was geared to that sort of adventure, simlarly to the way that
Twilight:2000 was.  There also did not seem to be too many well developed
adventures (as opposed to just hooks) not geared towards this makeup of
characters.

I just would rather have the options and settings associated with The Third
Imperium.

And, really the point of my post you quoted in part, was that its not
appropriate to say that one or another game or art "sucks" without backing
it up.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:23:31 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Timeline

> From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
> 
> Have you seen how little published material there is on that period?  
> It's about 8 timeline entries, total.  The breaks were set based on 
> how many items would be in the set...

Uh, well, so what? Just because there's no published info doesn't
mean that it wouldn't make a good new adventure milieu. In fact,
a lack of published material is, in a lot of ways, a bonus.

> > The Interstellar Wars (1-N) are, IMO, one of the most 
> > interesting periods to use as a setting, if only for one important
> > reason - the players can play Terrans from the reasonably near future,
> > thus making life easier than having to pretend to be someone from
> > a vastly alien culture who just coincidentally act like an American.
> 
> Ha.  You and I and others might think that, but find any "actually 
> published" material on the Interstellar Wars...

Published, schmublished. I have a damn fine vision of what the end
of the Nth Interstellar War and the beginning of the Rule of Man looks
like.

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 9:23:45 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: timeline chat

Well, since there doesn't seem to be any regular Traveller chat going 
on, I'd like to initiate a series of 'chats' on undernet concerning
the Traveller Timeline.

The first one would be on the Ancient Period, all events before
- -9235 Imperial (the Vilani discovery of the Jump Drive).

If you are interested in participating, please e-mail me at
'dmckinne@itds.com' with recommendations for 'when' we should chat.


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:30:13 -0600
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: The death of IG

When Imperium Games dies is that going to be the end of this list as well?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:42:12 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero Scouts

>and the IISS's contact proceedures revolted me. They make the IISS
>just a MegaCorp's resource prospecting arm.

IT WAS! Look, Cleon was the head of a huge trading consortium. He started
the Imperium to further extend his economic control. I don't believe the
IISS was not founded until later, but in any event, its precursor WAS the
market development end of Cleon's company.
The whole reason Cleon declared empire was that a formula for expansion
that was economically viable was developed. The contact procedures (which
are listed as being the cirriculum at the Zhanuistu Trade School, I would
point out) show how that was done.
Later, in a classic setting, the Scouts have a _much_ different role. But
you can't apply what they became to what there were in Milieu-0.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:09:31 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Milieu Zero - Economics

John Macpherson writes:
>I'm as big a die-hard for economics in role-playing as anyone,
>and I thought the econ parts of M:0 and PE were terrible.
Lets look at some of your misinterpretations...

>The plan for the trading guild, or whatever it was, for starting wars
>on planets so that they could sell weapons was ridiculous.

Actually, the policy was that by supporting dictators early on, it would
naturally lead to the dictators wanting to fight each other. What the
School advocated was pre-empting a long, drawn out, economically damaging
war by starting them at it in their own terms. Sort of like a controled
explosion being used to disarm a terrorist device.
Their "military advisors" to the different factions are specifically
trained to keep them focused on killing each other rather than the base
population. Since they are all in contact with each other they can
orchastrate the war to elliminate excess military bodies on the planet and
engineer it so the best person wins. When you then have one single
planetary government they turn around and support a coup or revolution to
replace them with a less militant body.

>Not only was it immoral and everything the Imperium should be
>against, it was bad business.
I won't argue immorality, except to point out that the Imperium was all
about business. Why is this bad business? You clean out a bunch of
repressive, exploitive regiems, who continue their domination through
threat of violence and replace them with one that perpetuates itself
through _economic_ means. You ensure that minimal damage is done to
civilians and maximum damange done to military types who might be a problem
alter trying to reassert a military dictatorship.
In addition to accomplishing this it also leads into the next phase which
was infrastructure development. Loads of off-world contract for immediate
money, and you are building their workforce into rather efficient
producers. So that they can make goods that are worth selling off-world.
Where's the bad business?

>You can rob a man once, but you can trade with him forever.
Absolutely. The early phases are designed to remove the base raw-material
wealth. If their currency is backed by a gold-standard you want to remove
the gold and move them to a system where their currency is backed by
Imperial Credits. The process is designed to turn them into a great market.
That is the whole point. The initial raw-material exploitation is designed
to put them in a position where they _have_ to adopt the Imperial economic
policies. These policies then turn them first into producers, further
funding the expansion, and then into consumers, generating wealth through
taxation.

>The theme of "everything is based on economics" does not mean
>"everything is based on evil, conniving exploitation" as the authors of M:0
>seemed to believe.

The aim was to come up with a self-sustaining, progressively expanding
economic plan. Maybe you missed the finer points or they weren't expressed
clear enough. I hope the above has clarified things.

>ultimately megacorps need _consumers_ and that means that _developing_ the
>worlds on the frontier will ultimately bring greater returns than the "rape
>and pillage" attitude of the Imperial merchants.

That was the aim, as explained above. What you describe sounds more like
the RC who go out and physically steal technology from governments they
don't like. Smash and Grab.

>The Imperium as depicted
>in M:0 was far more rapacious and systematically violent than the
>RC ever was.

I disagree about the violence bit. If you look at the plan, it doesn't not
at any point call for any Imperial Troops or gross military interference.
The only military involvement ever in two areas: first in encouraging their
gung-ho military types to kill each other off and secondly hiring high-tech
mercenaries to come in at the end of the war to ensure a clean, quick
coup-de-gras to the conflict.
Rapacious? Well, certainly profit-orientated. If you want to judge solely
by quality of lifestyle, income levels and other capitalist measures there
is a strong argument that uplifted worlds are much better off than they
were. On a macro-political sense they have much less control over their own
destiny, general policy and procedure, but the individuals in those
societies do rather well from it.

>John Jacob Astor ... Rockefeller ... Cecil Rhodes ...
And they will probably say wonderful things about Bill Gates when he is
dead, buried and gone.

>The Imperium
>had to be founded on the idea of a new dawn of interstellar civilization
>that the people stuck in the Long Night longed for.

Sure, that what the propaganda says. That's what the history books say. In
reality nothing is done for idealism. On one hand people cry for "hard
science". Yet here you are crying for "fairytale plots". Hmmm.

>Let the Civil War and the Rebellion tell the story of an empire
>grown old, cynical, and corrupt.  Milieu Zero should be about the hope of
>new beginings.

Actually, the perfect setting for what you are describing is just after
Milieu Zero. Think about it. As they expand the Imperium spreads all sorts
of propaganda about how wonderful and idealistic it is. It's good PR.
Especially when negotiationg with pocket empires. But, as time goes on, and
these worlds are uplifted and adsorbed into the Imperium what you have is a
whole generation who actually _believes_ the propaganda. Thousands of civil
servants on hunderds of worlds who really belive in the concept of a great,
benificient empire. The propaganda become the reality and _then_ you have
the idealism you are aspiring for.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:29:30 -0600
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of newbie questions, I have one.

At 08:29 AM 4/3/98 , Leonard Erickson wrote:

Thanks, Marc and Leonard for answering my questions.  I'm starting a
campaign in a few weeks and two of my players of physicists.  I need to
have a decent feel for this or I'll lose their suspension of disbelief...

>Just remember that the *time* variance in the jump means that the
>planet will have moved with respect to the plotted exit point (at 30
>km/sec an hour difference gives about 108,000 km. A day gives 2.6
>*million* km difference).

So 100 diameters from a size 8 planet which orbits at 30 km/sec (how
typical is that?) is 1,280,000 km, which can be covered in 5 hours by a 1G
ship.  It sounds as if the results of being 1 day early or late is an
additional 10 hours in transit.

Now my physics is rusty to the point of laughable.  The above may be wrong.
I question if it is linear.  I keep wanting to see this as 2.5 hours
acceleration, 2.5 hours decel (we're trying to land on the planet, not
crack it open).  So my question for the number crunching types is "Given
that we have a constant acceleration, does doubling (or tripling) distance
double (or triple) time to destination?"

I'm also wondering about the maximum velocity of a constant 1G acceleration
ship.

This just occurred to me:  I'd pretty much exclude by fiat the possibility
of arriving 12 hours early and finding that the planet is exactly where the
ship comes out (although this might do something interesting for the chap
who is trying to completely destroy a world).

I'm probably going to do something with a near miss, though.  A ship
arriving 1,280 km from the planet would set off all sortsa red alerts both
in-system and aboard ship.

>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:30:11 -0600 
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: IG Archive!

On Thursday, 02 April 1998 18:40, Kenneth Bearden
[SMTP:dreamer@brokersys.com] wrote:
> While the IG web page is still up, one of you beautiful Traveller web
> site holders out there should grab all of the info contained therein
and
> place it on your web site.
> 
> I'd hate to see the complete listing of TNS articles from all of
> Traveller's history lost when they stop maintaining the site.
> 
> Goran?  Free Lance Traveller?  Anybody?
> 
> Kenneth.

The Not-the-IG Pages were originally concieved as a new site for IG, and
was resuurected (as a pheonix) from the pieces salvages off the old IG
site.  Due to lack of interest from IG, the plan was abbandoned, and the
while these pages will remain, the site will shortly branch out into
other territories.

- -Vanya  (aka Vargr1)                                     UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ----------------------------------- The Future is in Beta
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
 "...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." |   dmoody@bridge.com
- --Not-the-IG Pages - http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/default.html--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #359
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, April 3 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 360



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Looking for house rules on character generation for T4
Re: The death of IG
RE: Heavy Gear question
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #359
RE: IG Archive!
jump drive exit points
(Re)Newbie Follow-Up
Re: IG Archive!
Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
Re: jump drive exit points
Re: Travlist: re- Jump hyper limits (aka jump even horizons)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #341
Re: CT and T?
Re: Travlist: re- Jump hyper limits (aka jump even horizons)
Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.
Re: Looking for house rules on character generation for T4
Re: Heavy Gear question
Re: CT and T?
The Legion of Super-Travellers
re: Re: A Couple of Questions...
Re: Milieu Zero - Economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:32:34 -0600
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Looking for house rules on character generation for T4

My players are opposed to randomly generated characters.  Does anyone have
an experience with allowing player choice in T4 character generation?

TIA
Michael Croft
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 08:47:06 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: The death of IG

At 09:30 AM 4/3/98 -0600, you wrote:
>When Imperium Games dies is that going to be the end of this list as well?

No.  This list is run off of Multi-Player Games Network, and dates back to
the dim and distant past of the Internet, when 386/50 was a great computer
system and Win3.1 was an upgrade.
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:00:30 -0600 
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Heavy Gear question

On Thursday, 02 April 1998 23:35, Chris Seamans [SMTP:semo@pil.net]
wrote:
> > From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
> > 
> > What about Dream Pod Nine for T5?  Their Heavy Gear line is also
more
> > wargame than role-playing game, so less fratricide potential.  The
> > mechanics are simple, robust, and reasonably close to much of what
T4.1
> > 
> > samples Marc Miller has posted to this list, if it were desirable to make
> > the two compatible.  They are a small company, granted, but Mr. Miller is
> > doing the writing on T4.1. Their graphics are *extremely* accurate
> > representations of what is covered in the text, whether the text itself
> is
> > realistic or not.  Their layouts are among the highest quality
> > available on
> > the shelves today.
> > 
> > Heck with it - what's their email address....?
> 
> They do have amazing layout, don't they.  Have you had any experience with
> it?  What's it like?  Is it worth buying?  I was considering it a little
> while ago, never got around to it though.

Yes! Heavy Gear is an incredible neat system, and the Silhouette system
handles very well.  I'm tempted to convert my Traveller game to it.  Buy
it.  

Also, for near-future campaign, look in into Jovian Chronicles.  True,
it has 'bendy-giant-robots', but it is an excellent SF setting.


Very Quick Silhouette Task overview:

Stats:
	Stats are rated (similar to Ars Magica) from apx -3 to +3 with 0
being 'average'.  Positive stats are above average, while negative stats
are below average.

	eg- Ivan has an Agility well above average.  His AGL is +2.

Skills:
	Skills are rated from none, to 0 and up, on basically the same
scale as Traveller skills.  each skill has a controlling attribute (eg-
Small Arms is controlled by Agility).
	
	eg- Ivan has a Small Arms skill of 3 - he is a very well trained
professional.

Task Resolution:
	A Skill/Stat combination is chosen for the task, and a
difficulty is set, from 1 up  The higher the number the harder the task.

	The player rolls a number of dice equal to his skill level, and
the highest value on a single die is taken.  *The dice are not
totalled.*  If a player rolled three dice and got 5, 3, and 4.  His roll
would be 5. 
	To this roll the stat value is added.  If this total is equal or
greater than the task number, the character succeeds.  The more your
total exceeds the task difficulty, the greater the success. 

	eg- Ivan wants to shoot the apple off of his son's head.  Due to
the size and difficulty, the GM determines that the difficulty for this
task is 6.
	Ivan rolls three dice (since his Small Arms skill is 3).  The
dice roll:   2   5   3.
	Ivan takes the highest die and adds his AGL: (5+2 = 7).  His
total is 7, which is greater than the difficulty number.  Ivan succeeds
at his task.

Unskilled:
	If you have no skill, you roll 2 dice, and take the lowest die.

- -Vanya  (aka Vargr1)                                     UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ----------------------------------- The Future is in Beta
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
 "...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." |   dmoody@bridge.com
- --Not-the-IG Pages - http://www.stl-online.net/vanya/default.html--



	

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 11:17:03 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #359

> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:23:31 -0500
> From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
> Subject: Re: Traveller Timeline
> 
> > From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
> > 
> > Have you seen how little published material there is on that period?  
> > It's about 8 timeline entries, total.  The breaks were set based on 
> > how many items would be in the set...
> 
> Uh, well, so what? Just because there's no published info doesn't
> mean that it wouldn't make a good new adventure milieu. In fact,
> a lack of published material is, in a lot of ways, a bonus.

But the breakdown was for discussion of a timeline derived from 
published material :)

> > > The Interstellar Wars (1-N) are, IMO, one of the most 
> > > interesting periods to use as a setting, if only for one important
> > > reason - the players can play Terrans from the reasonably near future,
> > > thus making life easier than having to pretend to be someone from
> > > a vastly alien culture who just coincidentally act like an American.
> > 
> > Ha.  You and I and others might think that, but find any "actually 
> > published" material on the Interstellar Wars...
> 
> Published, schmublished. I have a damn fine vision of what the end
> of the Nth Interstellar War and the beginning of the Rule of Man looks
> like.

You and me both.  Wonder if we have the same vision?
 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:42:12 +0000
> From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
> Subject: Re: Milieu Zero Scouts
> 
> >and the IISS's contact proceedures revolted me. They make the IISS
> >just a MegaCorp's resource prospecting arm.
> 
> IT WAS! Look, Cleon was the head of a huge trading consortium. He started
> the Imperium to further extend his economic control. I don't believe the
> IISS was not founded until later, but in any event, its precursor WAS the
> market development end of Cleon's company.

The Sylean Federation Scout Service was founded in the last century 
before the Imperium was formed.  It is (from Book 6) the direct
predecessor to the IISS. 

> The whole reason Cleon declared empire was that a formula for expansion
> that was economically viable was developed. The contact procedures (which
> are listed as being the cirriculum at the Zhanuistu Trade School, I would
> point out) show how that was done.
> Later, in a classic setting, the Scouts have a _much_ different role. But
> you can't apply what they became to what there were in Milieu-0.
 
Which is why, IMHO, the portrayal of many things in M:0, from the view
of "economics is everything", makes the setting as published drab. 
It would seem that all M:0 has done is insure that GURPS is the one
last, greatest hope for Traveller.  We wanted M:0 to relate to the CT
setting.  From your statement, and what was published, it does not.

Perhaps we could consider the IG T4 materials to exist in their own 
alternative universe, where Bill Gates is Emperor Cleon I and Vanna White
can be Empress during the Psionic Suppressions.


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:22:51 -0800
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: IG Archive!

I have all but two of the Challenge magazines, and almost all of the JTS's.
Which are you looking for?

Brian

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
>[mailto:owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Lars Adler
>Sent: Friday, April 03, 1998 3:37 AM
>To: traveller@mpgn.com
>Subject: Re: IG Archive!
>
>
>On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>
>> At 04:40 PM 4/2/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> >While the IG web page is still up, one of you beautiful Traveller web
>> >site holders out there should grab all of the info contained therein and
>> >place it on your web site.
>> >
>> >I'd hate to see the complete listing of TNS articles from all of
>> >Traveller's history lost when they stop maintaining the site.
>
>The Not-the-IG Website still lists them (and covers even more years), I
>think the AAB Website does this also, and I fitted them into a windows
>Help file. I'm still searching the articles from 1125 to 1130, as I do
>own only some Challenge issues from then on. Anyone got a copy/file?
>
>> The TNS stuff through 1112 has been snagged for my campaign, to
>be added to
>> the stuff I write myself.  I also grabbed the links page.
>
>I also began writing news articles for my campaign. But you won't find
>them in any file. (As a matter of fact, they're in german)
>
>L.A.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:42:20 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: jump drive exit points

>At last! A formula for "accuracy" of a jump.
Shadow wrote
>Just remember that the *time* variance in the jump means that the
>planet will have moved with respect to the plotted exit point (at 30
>km/sec an hour difference gives about 108,000 km. A day gives 2.6
>*million* km difference).

That's why you match velocities with your target planet before you jump
(what Marc called a "standing jump"; it's reasonable to assume that your
exit point moves with time at the velocity your ship had when it entered.

Mar also wrote

>> Usually, it is 100 diameters out from the destination world, on a line which
>> reaches back to the origin point.
>> Or, the ship can come out at a plotted point, at the point with a variation 
>> of
>> +D-D times 50,000 km, along the line between origin and destination.


Which has somewhat more interesting consequences. What happens when the
line between you and your target world crosses the target star's 100-diameter
limit? Can you pass through or do you have to exit as soon as you cross
the sphere? That would result in times of a few months each year when 
travel times between planets get a couple of days longer.

Does your destination have to be at a 100-diameter limit, or can you jump
into free space (in which case your exit point can be pretty much anywhere,
not just along the origin=>desitnation world line...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:16:03 -0800
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: (Re)Newbie Follow-Up

While I am VERY happy that Imperium finally bit it (what a wretched,
wretched company), the issue of my JTAS refund remains.  I never got my
money back.  Did anyone else?

As far as GURPS Traveller, IMHO I think it will work fine.  GURPS is an
innocuous background system, upon which you can layer whatever kind of story
you wish to tell.  For me, Traveller is about the Traveller universe, not
about the system (which, honestly, has never been that stunning in ANY of
it's incarnations).  The DreamPod 9 system would be PERFECT for Traveller,
but I doubt if that will happen.  I'll therefore snap up my copy of GURPS
Traveller, knowing that, no matter how "GURPSified it turns out to be, I'll
be much happier with it that with any of the crap Imperium ever wasted trees
on.

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:14:31 EST
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: IG Archive!

This is why I copied and pasted the entire TNS 1105-1119 from the IG site into
a word processing file yesterday. BTW, am I allowed to post it to the TML, or
is there still copyright restrictions?

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:16:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Don McKinney wrote:

> And as far as your view of Cleon and mine, well, I find Cleon as published
> boring.  When I considered Cleon, as a young man of 26 being the richest 
> person in the Sylean Federation with dreams of Empire, I thought of the 
> John Jacob Astor and Rockerfeller men of the Victorian age, building things
> where nothing was built before, or making reality out of dreams.  I don't
> find any "romantic" allure in dreaming about Bill Gates, thanks.

I wonder how much of that is in direct proportion to the difference in
time between you, Gates and the Victorian Robber Barons. At the _time_
people were hardly enamored of these men 'building things where nothing
was before'. Ask the farmers who coudn't ship their product except on the
monpolized railroads, and were driven to ruin by the high prices charged.

Ask the competing business owners who were driven out of business by any
means possible, including sabotage, murder and terrorism. 

At the time, grain elevator owners in the Midwest were taking grain
shipments from farmers. That's it, simply taking them, selling their grain
and keeping all the money. Some dressed it up as inflated 
'storage fees' but many simply stole it. 

Go back and re-read the Zhunastu School of Contact again in M0; those
romantic Robber Barons did that kind of stuff all the time...where do you
think the CORE people got the idea?

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:26:26 EST
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: jump drive exit points

I would think that warship fleets would think that this is very important. An
attacking fleet that did a maximum jump would come in with dry tanks, and thus
NOT want to pop in on the neighbors; they want to come in somewhere undetected
and move immediatly to the gas giant to refuel. This is ESPECIALLY vital to
Battlerider squadrons, and troop transports. If the squadron navigator can't
put the tender insystem far enough away from the defender to get enough time
to seperate the riders, and hide the tender; then the whole Battlerider
concept becomes unviable. I think that since space is BIG (even a Liberal Arts
barbarian like me knows this :-) ), there are only so many places the defender
can cover (I remember reading somewhere it saying the SDB's covered the
homeworld, and the gas giants well, and tried to cover the asteriod rings, and
the comets too). This leaves a lot of system space uncovered. Yeah, the
invader will have to fight his/her way into the gas giants to refuel, but the
actual JUMP will be pretty much unopposed. Of course I can see raiding
squadrons WANTING to drop into the laps of the defenders; surprise!....

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:29:53 -0600 (CST)
From: jpettit@ix.netcom.com (Joseph Pettit)
Subject: Re: Travlist: re- Jump hyper limits (aka jump even horizons)

>>Why didn't you just jump insystem perpendicular to the plane of the 
>>ecliptic?
>>Gravitationally speaking you just couldn't get within 100 diameters of 
>>the sun,
>>the rest of the planets would be easy to get to, relatively speaking.
>>
>>
>
>True, but if you're using anything other that thrusters, you'll have an
>obscene time getting into anything but a polar orbit around your target
>world.
>
So?  What's wrong with a polar orbit? Sometimes that's the best type.  If 
you're surveying a planet, the polar orbit usually sweeps the whole 
planet.  Then you have to think about the "odd" planets, like Uranus? or 
is it Neptune that's lying on its side? and then there are the tidally 
locked planets.

And for that matter, what's wrong with thrusters? 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:40:38 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #341

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Michael D. Peters wrote:
 
> In the operations department, the reasoning for increased hours perr day was
> that the automation reduced the physical work. Some (very unofficial)
> studies have started to indecat that the longer hours may be causing loss of
> attention toward the end of shift, but Corperate America seems intent on
> ignoring this.

Actually, there have been a number of studies showing that longer
shift/fewer days workweeks increase productivity. A lot of the problems
with loss of attention, inattention and missed signals in highly automated
environments have been shown to be because of the control interface; ones
that simply require the human operator to watch things and react when
something goes wrong are more likely to have errors committed than
interfaces wher e the automation is used as an adjunct to the human
operator's control of the systems. Ie: humans react better, and more
accurately when they're doing things instead of just watching.

Now, this has been studied most extensively in very high threat
environments like airplane cockpits and the like (very high threat in that
if you make a mistake, it can be _very_ bad), but the principles are
applicable to most any job.

As with almost anything to do with technology "It's the human interface,
stupid!"

Good HI design is rare, and not nearly as easy as you might think.

For a rather strange view of 'automation done right' read Nova, by Samuel
R. Delany. It illustrates the kinds of principles I'm talking about. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:13:51 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

> From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
> 
> Don't let Wizards of the Coast get their mitts on Traveller, they'll
> bury it like they did Gamma World.  They also won't allow that "putting
> stuff on a CDROM" like you've been talking about.  On the Gamma World
> list, we presented WotC with a petition sighned by hundreds of players,
> to be allowed to do the CDROM thing, and they ignored the petition. 
> We've mailed them several times.  All our messages go unanswered.

Did WotC buy Gamma World from TSR?  If they did, then this was the correct
way to do it.  If not, you should send the petition where it needs to be
sent...  TSR.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:50:10 -0500
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Travlist: re- Jump hyper limits (aka jump even horizons)

On Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:29:53 -0600 (CST) jpettit@ix.netcom.com (Joseph
Pettit) writes:

>So?  What's wrong with a polar orbit? 

Nothing.

>
>And for that matter, what's wrong with thrusters? 
>

Nothing.


Just pointing out the problems you'll encounter with mass based drives. 
I'm a gearhead, I can't help it!!!  IMTU, contragrav doesnt appear until
TL 13, and thrusters at TL 14.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
warmind@juno.com
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+

_____________________________________________________________________
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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:32:29 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> 
> Yeah, but it's talking about a *different* subject. Automation came
> with the dial phone, and that was in the 20s or 30s in the larger cities.

One of the many levels of automation...

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:29:27 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Lengthy technology essay...  If you're interested, read on.

> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> 
> Hardly. A single exchange had *multiple* switchboards. And they handled
> a lot less than 10,000 lines. Consider. The area the operator can reach
> is *only* about 70 cm tall by 140 cm wide (based on how far *I* can
> reach while seated at my computer). That's 9800 cm^2. And the plugs
> *alone* take up most of a square cm, ignoring things like indicator
> lights. So there's no *way* those switchboards can handle 10,000 lines.

The source I pulled this from was _The Hacker Crackdown_ by Sterling.  The
first chapter is a history of the phone company and its ways.  He stated
that exchanges were kept to 10,000 numbers as that was the most that a
human operator could handle.

> Bell labs didn't invent direct dialing. A fellow by the name of
> Strowger did. And that was in the 1910s or 1920s. Direct *local*
> dialing was around (and required!) long before that 1950s project. The
> automation you read about was for long distance. I'm talking about what
> is required for *local* service in large cities.

Well then, in that case, we're talk about two different levels of
automation.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:43:51 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for house rules on character generation for T4

> From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
>
> My players are opposed to randomly generated characters.  Does anyone
have
> an experience with allowing player choice in T4 character generation?

You can allow them to choose, I believe it may even say that somewhere in
the rules.  My PC's liked the balance achieved with the following amendment
to the system...

Year 1 - Roll for skill category, roll for skill
Year 2 - Roll for skill category, pick skill
Year 3 - Pick skill category, roll for skill
Year 4 - Pick skill category, pick skill

It works pretty well.  When extra skills come into play, then start the
cycle again for the extra skills.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:46:16 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Heavy Gear question

> From: Moody, Danny M. <DMoody@bridge.com>
> Yes! Heavy Gear is an incredible neat system, and the Silhouette system
> handles very well.  I'm tempted to convert my Traveller game to it.  Buy
> it.  

Cool.  I'm convinced.  When I get the extra cash, I'll do it.  Thanks for
the overview.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:21:15 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

>
>Did WotC buy Gamma World from TSR?  If they did, then this was the correct
>way to do it.  If not, you should send the petition where it needs to be
>sent...  TSR.
>
>Chris
>semo@pil.net
>

WotC bought TSR. If you want a petition to go to TSR, you have to send it to
WotC.

Shawn
electric-stitch@w-link.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 20:13:58 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: The Legion of Super-Travellers

Well, this "Cleon is Bill Gates" discussion reminded me of my own Cleon 
analog: R.J. Brande, from the Legion of Super-Heroes comics.

 * Brande is one of the wealthiest men alive.
 * Brande Industries invents a new wonder technology.
 * He licenses this technology to a fledgeling interstellar state, 
   which has the oomph to make it big as a result.
 * He ends up running aforementioned interstellar state...

So, where are the three teens who saved Cleon's life?  And why did DC 
decide to rewrite Legion history from Year 0, rather than 1116 years 
later like SJG?  Is anyone still reading?

Enquiring minds want to know.
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom
tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++
Various Traveller IS Forms: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 13:40:47 -0600
From: "LLOYD ROBINSON" <LJR@sbscorp.com>
Subject: re: Re: A Couple of Questions...

> FarFuture Enterprises still exists. Imperium Games is the company
> disappearing. FFE owns all the rights to Traveller - it's Marc Miller's
> organisation/company.
>
> You should have tried Imperium Games not FFE.
>
> Dom

My intent was to get materials for the game that I like to play, that's Traveller. I TRIED IG and then  FFE 
after IG did not respond. I got no replies. I hope that Steve Jackson Games does a better job at getting
the products to the customer. 

Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:19:49 -0500 (EST)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero - Economics

> 
> John Macpherson writes:
> >I'm as big a die-hard for economics in role-playing as anyone,
> >and I thought the econ parts of M:0 and PE were terrible.
> Lets look at some of your misinterpretations...

	Okay, this could obviously very easily turn into one of those 
interminable arguments with quotes, counter-quotes and a lot of verbiage 
but no progress.  Let's do our best to stake out our overall positions 
clearly before getting down to all of the micro stuff these things can 
degenerate to.
	Let me start with PE.  As a game it's fine, but it has as much to 
do with real economics as Monopoly.  The stuff about comparative 
advantage is nice, and the finished goods trade stuff is reasonable, but 
the underlying mechanisms for producing GWP are weird.  My biggest beef 
was with the infrastructure/resource consumption stuff.  But what the 
heck, Monopoly is a fun game and I'm sure PE is too.  It's just not the 
way I'd do it.  Of course, I think FF&S2 could use a second volume with 
more detail on some issues, so my tastes may be out of the norm.
	I have two real problems with M:0.  First, it is _way_ too 
cynical for my tastes.  Second, given the cynicism, the business plan for 
the imperium was not tenable in the long run because it focused on 
sucking all the wealth out of planets rather than creating stable, 
long-run trading partners.

	On the first point, the "fairy-tale plots" comment was a bit
unfair.  My reading of M:0 was that Cleon was a greedy SOB who had
declared the 3I because it was a good business move.  I think this is a
bit one-dimensional.  Real people from history who might compare somewhat
in prominence to Cleon were, IMHO, a bit more complicated than that. 
Certainly some of them were that bad, but most of the interesting ones 
weren't.  Someone mentioned MacArthur in this thread.  Mac is a great 
example because he was an excellent general and rebuilder of post-war 
Japan, but his arrogance and self-involvement didn't allow him to see the 
bigger picture of which he was a part.  As a result, Truman had to can 
him.  You may quibble with my description of MacArthur, but the point is 
that the man was both heroic and flawed.  Thomas Jefferson was a 
brilliant man who laid much of the intellectual foundation for American 
democracy and guarantees of liberty, but he was also a slave-owner and 
philanderer.  Abraham Lincoln had to do all kinds of things to win the 
Civil War that were contrary to American principles, and freed the slaves 
many say because it would help win the war rather than out of any real 
conviction, but he still is one of our most revered presidents because of 
all the things he did _right_.  (I hope our international friends will 
forgive me all of these American examples)
	My question is, where's Cleon's positive side?  All we know about
him is that he's rich, he started the Imperium cause it was a good move
for Zhunastu Inc., and he apparently has his political rivals assasinated. 
The Cleon described recently in a proposed adventure plot was a much more
interesting person than the one presented in M:0 precisely because he
_was_ a great figure with big dreams and abilities but was also in other
ways merely human and driven by human passsions. I agree that it's 
realistic for Cleon to do some less than savory things, but is that _all_ 
he does?

	On the second point (from way above) the economic plan for the
Imperium was not a good one, either economically or morally.  I'm setting
aside the moral question so that we can get away from the "fairy-tale"
issue.  
	You have described a whole system for killing off political
leaders, debasing currencies, extracting all mineral wealth, etc.  M:0
assumes that somehow all of this is necessary for integrating worlds
economically into the 3I.  I honestly don't know why any of this is 
important.  First off, why is there this assumption that all worlds will 
be ruled by a bunch of petty tyrants?  Earth is presently a TL-8 balkanized 
society probably not unlike many that Sylea would encounter and there are 
at least a few progressive, representative governments that Sylea would 
have no need to topple to productively trade with.  There are also probably 
plenty of worlds out there that aren't balkanized and are ruled by a 
government smart enough to see the many advantages of off-world trade.  
Besides, I thought there was extensive canon to support a very 
"hands-off" 3I that didn't care what local government was like so long as 
they obeyed a few simple rules, allowed free trade, paid taxes, etc.
	Second, there are plenty of things that can be traded to these 
worlds in exchange for their mineral wealth that would enhance their long 
term productivity and not involve intentionally debasing their currency.  
Fusion+, communications gear, contra-grav vehicles, j-drives, regular 
fusion, nuclear dampers, and most of all capital goods would all be in 
enormous demand.  Getting the natives to use the Imperial Credit for lots 
of transactions should also be easy since it will be the basis of 
interstellar trade.  Look at the number of currencies backed by the USD!  
For domestic transactions they'll probably use the local guilders or 
whatever, but it won't really matter since most of these local currencies 
will be pegged to the IC.  Those worlds that choose not to do this are 
probably the ones that are still low-tech and backward in 1100, because 
they were never able to attract off-planet investment or generate much 
trade.  
	As for the gold-standard somehow being more stable or viable then
a freely floating currency, this is really something of a myth.  A 
currency is as stable as demand for the goods that back it.  For the USD, 
that means goods produced anywhere the currency is USD or is backed by 
USD.  For the Pacific islanders who use big round rocks as currency, this 
is backed by their economic output.  The Bank of Hawaii will even make 
loans with these big rocks as collateral because they recognize that it 
doesn't matter whether money is paper, or gold, or a big rock, it's still 
money.  The advantage gold has is that lots of people historically have 
wanted it, so it was a safer store of value then the output of any one 
country.  This has its own problems though because a shortage or surplus 
of gold (or big rocks or whatever) can cause inflation or deflation as 
well as credit crunches.  We went through a set of recessions and 
financial crises in the late 19th century because the supply of gold was 
not keeping up with the economy's growth rate.  It was a gold strike in 
Alaska that finally restored liquidity.

> In addition to accomplishing this it also leads into the next phase which
> was infrastructure development. Loads of off-world contract for immediate
> money, and you are building their workforce into rather efficient
> producers. So that they can make goods that are worth selling off-world.
> Where's the bad business?

	You seem to have the IMO mistaken notion that war builds 
infrastructure.  In fact, it destroys it in huge volumes.  War is the 
fastest way to reduce a people to poverty ever devised.
	Your point that developing infrastructure and the workforce for 
the purpose of producing exports is good business is precisely _my_ 
point.  Why not got straight to this without first trashing the planet 
with wars, coups, financial chaos, etc.

 > >You can rob a man once, but you can trade with him forever.
> Absolutely. The early phases are designed to remove the base raw-material
> wealth. If their currency is backed by a gold-standard you want to remove
> the gold and move them to a system where their currency is backed by
> Imperial Credits. 

	As I've explained above, worlds will want to move to a currency 
backed by the IC on their own because the IC will be more widely demanded 
and more useful than gold, therefore it will be a more stable thing to 
base one's currency on.  The gold-standard is by no stretch of the 
imagination a threat to the preeminance of Imperial currency.

> The process is designed to turn them into a great market.
> That is the whole point. The initial raw-material exploitation is designed
> to put them in a position where they _have_ to adopt the Imperial economic
> policies. 

	Unless you are dealing with a totally xenophobic world that 
refuses to see the benefits of interstellar trade, they'll want to open 
their doors regardless.  There's no need to bankrupt them first.  If some 
planet wants to take advantage of all the trade generated by the Imperium 
without joining it, then Cleon can just slap a big tariff on all their 
goods.  Then they have the choice of remaining isolated or joining the 
interstellar community through the 3I.  If they really are xenophobes 
then maybe it's time to do the Adm. Perry number on them and open their 
ports forcefully.

> That was the aim, as explained above. What you describe sounds more like
> the RC who go out and physically steal technology from governments they
> don't like. Smash and Grab.

	Right, the Imperium just starts wars, sells the despots guns, 
picks a new ruler, and then deposes him with a coup, followed by robbing 
the world of its mineral wealth and destroying its financial system, 
before finally forcing them onto their knees so that they have no choice 
but to join the evil empire that got them into the mess in the first 
place.

> >The Imperium as depicted
> >in M:0 was far more rapacious and systematically violent than the
> >RC ever was.
> I disagree about the violence bit. If you look at the plan, it doesn't not
> at any point call for any Imperial Troops or gross military interference.
> The only military involvement ever in two areas: first in encouraging their
> gung-ho military types to kill each other off and secondly hiring high-tech
> mercenaries to come in at the end of the war to ensure a clean, quick
> coup-de-gras to the conflict.

	I don't think wars ever kill-off the gung-ho types, they just 
create a lot of pain, fear, and hatred that breeds new generations of 
killers.  Look at N. Ireland, Palestine, Lebanon, Ethiopia, Yugoslavia....
	As for all of this stuff about clean and quick coup-de-gras with a
new ruler installed friendly to the Imperium, look at the kind of regimes
this created when the US and French tried this during the Cold War in SE
Asia and Africa.  We got the worst, most corrupt despots of all.  You
can't create stable political and economic institutions through civil wars
and internecine conflict.
 
> >John Jacob Astor ... Rockefeller ... Cecil Rhodes ...
> And they will probably say wonderful things about Bill Gates when he is
> dead, buried and gone.

	Actually, history has not been kind to Rockefeller and especially 
Rhodes.  They're both considered ruthless SOBs and Rhodes was probably 
quite a murderer to boot.  I wasn't holding them up as good examples of 
heroic behavior, but as fascinating characters who were important on the 
world stage.  They were both probably more admired in their own time than 
in ours.  JJ Astor was wealthy but had made much fewer enemies since he 
was involved in commerce rather than industry or conquest.  JJ didn't 
feel the need to crush anyone under his boot heel to become the richest 
man in America.

 
- -JM

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #360
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Traveller-digest        Friday, April 3 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 361



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: T4 storyline
Re: CT and T?
Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #360
Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this
Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this
Re: Archive for TML
RE: Jump Drives... no really, read this
Re: CT and T?
Re: CT and T?
YATTS: D6?
Stutterwarp Q! TNE
YATTS: Heavy Gear

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:27:06 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Anders Backman wrote:
 
> The cartridge might work but I'm not so shure about the mechanism, most
> lubricants wont work in vacuum and there is the problem of metal pieces
> spontaneously welding together. In short I don't think your 1906-vintage
> Smith&Wesson will work in vacuum, at least not reliably, but not for the
> lack of oxygen issue.

Actually the vaccuum welding and lubricant problems both aren't that
critical. The thing can operate for a long time with no lubricant, and
there aren't all that many precisely matching metal faces for vaccuum
welding, which takes a fair amount of time. 

Revolvers are remarkably low-tech...trying to visualize a complete
teardown in my head, without having done it in a long while, there are
only about ten or so moving parts, maybe less. Certainly my black powder
.44 has fewer moving parts. 

Although, you're right. It wouldn't be my first choice for standard issue
sidearm for zero-G vaccuum work. ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:33:40 +0000
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: T4 storyline

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> Jo Grant writes:
> > A minor point:
> > > A jump-3 to Balpan (1819 Core)
> > There is no jump-3 in Milieu:0. The whole point of Zhunastu's
> > power was they invented an improved fusion (fusion+) which
> > allowed smaller starship to be built, and the invented jump-2.
> > Jump-1 is the norm, jump-2 is special. Jump-3 is right out.
>
> Jo, jump-3 was invented 2000 years before Milieu:0. It was in use
> throughout the 2nd Imperium for at least half a millenium. Planets
> may lose the industrial capacity to built jump-3 ships when it
<snip>

Reminder: TL is not the  same  as  scientific  knowledge.  I  can
believe that many worlds retain their  scientific  knowledge  (in
their libraries and through 'Seldon Plans') but what is  lost  is
the industrial capability (not  just  capacity).  They  may  know
what componants go into a Jump-3 drive ... and know how  to  make
these componants ... but may have lost the techniques to make the
tools to make the componants.  And some times the  best  Tech  is
not  always  economically  successful   (how   many   _different_
supersonic passenger aircraft do you know of) thus are  discarded
and later forgotten (like Betamax).

Also, don't underestimate the drawbacks of specialisation ...  if
planet X builds Jump-3 drives with widgets  from  planet  Y  then
planet X may not have bothered to know how to make widgets in the
first place.  So when trade with planet Y ceases, planet X has to
give up making Jump-3 drives.



Regards PLST

"The Air Force is pleased with the performance of the C-5A  cargo
plane, although having the wings fall off at  8,000  hours  is  a
problem." - Major General Charles F. Kuyk Jr.
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 12:42:34 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

At 01:31 PM 4/2/98 -0500, Chris Seemans wrote:
>> From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
>> I have very little knowledge about marketing. Perhaps today's market
>> wants art work (form) and not content (substance). I do not buy a rule
book or
>> supplement because of the wonderful art work or graphics. The fact that
>> price of the book is adversely affected by the addition of fancy art work
>> deters me from purchasing the product.

>Hmmm...  You say it as though there's no choice, like, if you have artwork
>then you don't have substance, or vice versa, which is bull.

In the main, though, it is very true.  Not because it must be, but because
it is easier and cheaper to slack off on something than to get everything
right.  Further, many games are the brainchild of one person, and if that
person is not both a bugbear on content and on format, you can easily have
one of the two slacked off on.  As time is passing, games are more likely
the work of several people, and thus more likely to have someone who cares
about every aspect of the process.  Perhaps more useful, the cost of entry
is getting high enough that a game is likely to come from a company willing
to pay for decent production values, which makes worrying about formats
more common.  If you are paying a printer for a four color cover, you might
just spend the time to make sure that the art on that cover is good.

>The printing capabilities that have come into existence since the LBBs have
>changed the face of publishing entirely.  Things that were too much work to
>do by hand, or were prohibitively expensive are dirt cheap by today's
>standards.  What creates a professional looking book is form.  Artwork is
>part of that form.  Artwork is part of format as well.

You just hit it on the head.  Artwork is now part of the format of the
book, which was not true in the late seventies.  Look at typical war games
- - one nice illo on the front, and on the cover of the manual, maybe, and
none at all on the inside.

Now look at the games coming out today - drizzled with illustrations and
pictures.  Even the early T4 books had some Bulbous Foss Art on the covers,
and IG's formatting people needed a sharp boot to the head.

As a result, it is quite true that to sell to today's crowd, you do need
the cover art and the interior art.  You also need proofreaders who speak
the language, editors who can spell and format grammatical sentences, and
you need authors who have some desire to be consistent.  T4 had some of the
latter at certain times, but had few of the former at some critical points.

This does not mean you can ignore content, only that the audiences have
become sophisticated enough to demand the same standards which are common
in other parts of the publishing industry.  I just picked up a book on
differential equations that has at least one illustration of a DE per page,
something that would have been prohibitive in the Old Days.

So, what does NT (New Traveller) need?  A parent company with the cash to
afford good art, the will to edit, format, proof, print, and reprint the
books.  A line manager who is willing to force authors to use Traveller
terms.  (I do not care if you think it is a local term.  Use the term
Starbase in a Traveller supplement, and you are DEAD, as far as my
purchases go.)  A writer's guide so that an author CAN write compliant
supplements.

Now, if it can get all of these, the exact details become hazy.  Runequest
was almost killed by being adopted by Avalon Hill, despite the higher
production values and vastly better editing/proofing, partly because AH and
Chaosium got into a rather nasty snit, right about when they should have
been introducing adventures.


Personally, I think what all new games need is an equal mix of rulebooks,
sourcebooks, and adventure books, in roughly equal parts.  My list, for a
new company:

Rules:

1.  Basic rulebook, with enough to start playing immediately.
2.  Gearhed book, a la FF&S2
3.  Starship, vehicle, and equipment book

Sources:

1.  Local campaign book, like M0.  Include maps, people, conspiracies, and
so on.  This lets the cheap ref start out with a consistent world, with
just one purchase.
2.  A service book, like "Navy life" or "Merchanting for fun"  This gives
players the feel that they are "in the milieu".  It has far more specific
jargon, and far more focus.  It is similar to the "thieves handbook"
created by TSR, so that someone who has an archetype character can get it
pretty much right.  GURPS special ops is a lot like this.
3.  Support materials - like Traders and Gunboats, some thing which a GM
can use to fight off it has a map, so it is important."

Adventures:

Three big adventures, using people mentioned in the campaign book, and
locations mentioned there.  At least one big conspiracy.

These adventures should, if properly done, include lots of people, lots of
maps, and lots of encounters.  nugget format is nice, as is a list of
events that must happen, and their ordering.  Random encounters that may or
may not advance the plot are also good, as then players do not have to 

If a game system offers all of these things, then they have a pretty good
chance of catching a given set of players.  Consider - all you need to have
to start out is the main rulebook, and you need at least one copy of a
campaign book or adventure book if you do not come up with these on your own.

DMs who do not have the time to create things will buy your support and
adventure books, while players will have your focus books.  That way,
virtually every player can play with little investment, but will see a
benefit from buying the nine books.

For this to work, they have to look reasonably slick, but that does not
mean expensive art.  It does mean attention to detail, good proofs, and
care in the creation.  FF&S2 was marred rather substantially by a simple
typo - I have done mathematics for so long that a formula that uses
unfamiliar symbology takes a lot longer to parse than one done with TeX.
The failure of printing cast doubt on all the contents on a visceral level.
 If you do not care about the look as a company, then your products do not
feel professional.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:45:59 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this

> On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Lars Adler wrote:
 
> Is this the way the squadron can cross jumpspace together to make a
> collective attack on its target?

I think I would allow it in my campaign, but I would increase the 
amount of time it would take to link ships dependant on how many 
ships are to be linked. I would make the assumption that adding more 
ships to the link would increase the complexity of the job it would 
take to link them.

> I remember a discussion point earlier on the list, but do not know the
> outcome ...

IIRC, I think there was a discussion last week or so that concerned 
an alternative jump drive system that someone was using that figured 
in "cumulative errors" in J-space navigation. I don't know if it's 
applicable to normal J-drives though.
- ------------------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ
dss2@erols.com

Webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 14:54:31 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #360

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> Subject: Re: T4 Storyline Possibility
> 
> I wonder how much of that is in direct proportion to the difference in
> time between you, Gates and the Victorian Robber Barons. At the _time_
> people were hardly enamored of these men 'building things where nothing
> was before'. Ask the farmers who coudn't ship their product except on the
> monpolized railroads, and were driven to ruin by the high prices charged.
> 
> Ask the competing business owners who were driven out of business by any
> means possible, including sabotage, murder and terrorism. 

The idea wasn't to give examples of kind and gentle men - it was to give
examples of men who had more to them than the depiction of Cleon as 
some kind of crowned, money-sucking vampire...

But I'll bow to John Macpherson's more eloquent argument on this.

> 	I have two real problems with M:0.  First, it is _way_ too 
> cynical for my tastes.  Second, given the cynicism, the business plan for 
> the imperium was not tenable in the long run because it focused on 
> sucking all the wealth out of planets rather than creating stable, 
> long-run trading partners.
 
[brilliant arguments against the M:0 economic model deleted]

I guess I just have to ask - how many of the writers ran games in this 
universe?  How many games are being run in this universe by TML members?
(and that's as depicted - if your 3I agents aren't out crippling every 
TL4 world they find for the good of His Imperial Majesty, you aren't 
playing M:0 as depicted)...


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:56:51 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this

>Joe Pettit wrote:

> Assuming the linkage possibility exists, the week for interconnections and
> fragile nature of the link would imply that this linkage is for ships not
> intended for linkage.
> However, if you design a ship specifically to mate with another (both have to
> be designed this way), then you could cut down on the time and fragility of the
> linkage.

Sounds reasonable to me, but I would make it a feature that would add 
cost to a J-drive when a ship is constructed, and be a difficult and 
expensive item to "retrofit". I would think that it would be a 
standard feature on military ships though. Perhaps you might want to 
make the link a bit more stable and faster when linking ships of the 
same class too, since their systems would be almost identical.
- ------------------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ
dss2@erols.com

Webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:11:26 +0000
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this

Joe Pettit wrote:
> Robert Kondrk wrote:
>
> > Hiya.
> > > But can a ship be designed so that its jumpdrive can be linked to
> > > another?
> > > Obviously this is a specialty case, but is there canon to point one
> > > direction or the other?
> >
> > Yup. A reference to this is right in Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 35:
<snip>
> Thanks for the info. Now allow me to run this extrapolation.
> Assuming the linkage possibility exists, the week for interconnections
> and fragile nature of the link would imply that this linkage is for
> ships not intended for linkage.
> However, if you design a ship specifically to mate with another (both
> have to be designed this way), then you could cut down on the time and
> fragility of the linkage.

There is an MT adventure called "Ghost Ship" in DGP's  Digest  14
which covers this.  The party have to link a ship with a  damaged
Jump Drive to a ship with  a  damaged  Power  Plant  ...  in  the
wilderness.

The procedure  descibes  3  linkages  ...  a  physical  brace  to
securely hold the two ships  together  and  allow  the  lanthanum
grids to operate as one unit ... a power link ... and  a  control
systems link.


] To design the bracing structure:
] Routine, Engineering or Mechanical, Edu, 1 hour (uncertain)
] Referee: Some truth results indicate a hidden flaw which may
] cause a mishap during construction.  No truth results indicate
] that the design is faulty and it will be impossible to build
] the link as intended.  The system will have to be redesigned
] from scratch.
]
] To design the power link:
] Routine, Engineering or Electronics, Edu, 1 hour (uncertain)
] Referee: As above.
]
] To design the control link:
] Routine, Computer or Electronics, Edu, 1 hour (uncertain)
] Referee: As above.


] To build the braceing structure:
] Difficult, Engineering or Mechanical, Dex, 1 day (uncertain)
] Referee: Some truth indicates a warning light situation when
] the brace is subjected to stree (ie. when the ship moves).
] A no truth result indicates a mishap during construction
] which may result in injury to the workers or further damage
] to the ships themselves.
]
] To build the power link:
] Difficult, Engineering or Electronics, Dex, 1 day (uncertain)
] Referee: As above.
]
] To build the control link:
] Difficult, Computer or Electronics, Dex, 1 day (uncertain)
] Referee: Some truth results show a fault in the assembly
] that will interfer with the proper impulse transmission and
] cause a system shutdown upon activation.  No truth indicates
] that an accident has taken place during the constructions
] of the link.



Regards PLST

"A squid, as you know of course, has ten testicles."
- -- Graham Kerr, TV chef
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:17:11 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Archive for TML

>I need to access the TML archives on and around 15/16/17 Feb 1997 to get a
>new copy of Rob Flammang's High Guard to T4 conversion rules. My original
>majordomo response doesn't cover this - can anyone advise how I go about it?
>
>Dom

Plug this into your browser;
ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/

One of the directories is obviously the mailing list archive.

Mind you, I think the rules you are talking about are on Kevin Walsh's Free
TRader Beowulf web page at;
http://cube.ice.net/~kwalsh/hgt4conv.txt

Or at least, a version of those rules.

Have fun!

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:52:39 -0800
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Jump Drives... no really, read this

>> On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Lars Adler wrote:
>
>> Is this the way the squadron can cross jumpspace together to make a
>> collective attack on its target?
>

There is a Q&A in one of the old Traveller's Digests where jump calculations
for entire fleets is discussed.  The thrust of it was that it is possible
for the navigators on each ship to work together to ensure that the ships
exit jump space very close together (time-wise).  If anyone really wants to
know the details, I can dig it up.  Just lemmee know . . .

Brian

>I think I would allow it in my campaign, but I would increase the
>amount of time it would take to link ships dependant on how many
>ships are to be linked. I would make the assumption that adding more
>ships to the link would increase the complexity of the job it would
>take to link them.
>
>> I remember a discussion point earlier on the list, but do not know the
>> outcome ...
>
>IIRC, I think there was a discussion last week or so that concerned
>an alternative jump drive system that someone was using that figured
>in "cumulative errors" in J-space navigation. I don't know if it's
>applicable to normal J-drives though.
>------------------------------------------------------
>Bob Kondrk
>Rahway, NJ
>dss2@erols.com
>
>Webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
>------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:09:10 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

> From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>
> In the main, though, it is very true.  Not because it must be, but
because
> it is easier and cheaper to slack off on something than to get everything
> right.  Further, many games are the brainchild of one person, and if that
<snip-o-rama>

Hear!  Hear!  Some good points.

> You just hit it on the head.  Artwork is now part of the format of the
> book, which was not true in the late seventies.  Look at typical war
games
> - one nice illo on the front, and on the cover of the manual, maybe, and
> none at all on the inside.

The cheaper that desktop publishing has become, the cheaper legitimate
publishing has become.  I'm not saying that you have to have tons of
full-color artwork throughout or anything, I'm just saying that you have to
look at least as good as the book next to you on the shelf.

After all, if you were going for a job, you wouldn't hand in a handwritten
piece of looseleaf with greasy pizza stains as your resume, would you?

> Now look at the games coming out today - drizzled with illustrations and
> pictures.  Even the early T4 books had some Bulbous Foss Art on the covers,
> and IG's formatting people needed a sharp boot to the head.
> 
> As a result, it is quite true that to sell to today's crowd, you do need
> the cover art and the interior art.  You also need proofreaders who speak
> the language, editors who can spell and format grammatical sentences, and
> you need authors who have some desire to be consistent.  T4 had some of the
> latter at certain times, but had few of the former at some critical
points.

IG fumbled the ball, even though some of us (like me) had faith until the
very end that IG would come around, it seemed to just make good sense that
they would.  They just didn't have the heart.

> This does not mean you can ignore content, only that the audiences have
> become sophisticated enough to demand the same standards which are common
> in other parts of the publishing industry.  I just picked up a book on
> differential equations that has at least one illustration of a DE per page,
> something that would have been prohibitive in the Old Days.

Of course.  I wouldn't dream of saying you should pawn off a book with no
content based on its artistic merit.

> So, what does NT (New Traveller) need?  A parent company with the cash to
> afford good art, the will to edit, format, proof, print, and reprint the
> books.  A line manager who is willing to force authors to use Traveller
> terms.  (I do not care if you think it is a local term.  Use the term
> Starbase in a Traveller supplement, and you are DEAD, as far as my
> purchases go.)  A writer's guide so that an author CAN write compliant
> supplements.

Yes yes yes yes yes.  All across the board.  I've already mentioned to FFE
that I'd be highly interested in doing layout for whatever version would be
coming up.  I'm working on a portfolio that I'll be ready to send in an
instant to whatever company decides to give Trav a whirl next...

> Personally, I think what all new games need is an equal mix of rulebooks,
> sourcebooks, and adventure books, in roughly equal parts.  My list, for a
> new company:

I think that it should be a little lighter on the adventure books,
personally.  Adventures don't seem to sell too well these days, and an
adventure is much less useful than a sourcebook to many GMs.

> Sources:
>
> 2.  A service book, like "Navy life" or "Merchanting for fun"  This gives
> players the feel that they are "in the milieu".  It has far more specific
> jargon, and far more focus.  It is similar to the "thieves handbook"
> created by TSR, so that someone who has an archetype character can get it
> pretty much right.  GURPS special ops is a lot like this.

This would be an excellent addition, kind of like Mercenary, High Guard,
Scouts and Merchant Prince with more detail on the feel of the services,
not just new rules to use for them.

> For this to work, they have to look reasonably slick, but that does not
> mean expensive art.  It does mean attention to detail, good proofs, and
> care in the creation.  FF&S2 was marred rather substantially by a simple
> typo - I have done mathematics for so long that a formula that uses
> unfamiliar symbology takes a lot longer to parse than one done with TeX.
> The failure of printing cast doubt on all the contents on a visceral
level.
>  If you do not care about the look as a company, then your products do
not
> feel professional.

You don't need expensive art.  But, you can't leave art out, or just throw
in a dozen full page pieces and think that suffices, especially when only
half of the pictures have anything to do with the text.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:43:16 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

> From: Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
> 
> WotC bought TSR. If you want a petition to go to TSR, you have to send it to
> WotC.

That's a truly strange way of doing things.  Seems to make no sense, and is
not good business.  It seems as if TSR is still TSR, with TSR addresses on
the books.  It just so happens that WotC owns the company.  If you wanted
to write into WotC concerning questions with Magic, then you'd send them to
WotC.  If you wanted to send TSR questions concerning their product line,
you'd send them to TSR.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 16:05:44 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: YATTS: D6?

Hi Ken, 

I meant to ask about this when you posted it, but it got shuffled down the
deck due to the pressures of work.

On 04/01/98 at 12:23 PM,  Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com> said:

>---------------------------------------------------------
>IMPROVED TASK SYSTEM FOR TRAVELLER
>---------------------------------------------------------

>1:  STATS are added to the task roll at full value.

> EX:  If you have a 7 Dex, then you add 7 points to your roll.  If you
>      are wounded, and your Dex is lowered to 5, then you only add 5
>      points to the roll.

>2:  SKILLS give you DICE to roll on a task.

> EX:  If you have Pistol-2, you add 2 six siders to the roll.

>3:  DIFFICULTY is a set of numbers as used in MT.

<snip!>

I've never used the D6 system, but from descriptions of it this looks much
like it.  I know you were praising the StarWars RPG (which uses D6) the
last couple of weeks, is this similar to that system?

Speaking of D6 and Starwars, I've been thinking about buying a copy to take
a look at it.  If I'm just interested in the mechanics, not the background,
will I get that if I buy the D6 book...and save 15 to 20 bucks?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 00:15:19 +0200
From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Subject: Stutterwarp Q! TNE

	In FF&S alternate drives, i can't find the "mass" formula for the
stutterwarp. Someone got it?

Goran

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 16:36:55 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: YATTS: Heavy Gear

Hey Dom!

Is TML gearing up for our annual spring Task System Debate? ;->

On 04/03/98 at 11:00 AM,  "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com> said:

>Yes! Heavy Gear is an incredible neat system, and the Silhouette system
>handles very well.  I'm tempted to convert my Traveller game to it.  Buy
>it.  

I've read good and bad reviews on the Silhouette system.  Generally more
positive than negative, though.  As I understand it, the Silhouette system
takes up only a dozen pages in HG or JC, and if you don't really want the
background you're paying a big premium.  Is there "stuff" in HG and/or JC
that would interest a Traveller GM..other than Silhouette?

>Also, for near-future campaign, look in into Jovian Chronicles.  True, it
>has 'bendy-giant-robots', but it is an excellent SF setting.

I thought Heavy Gear was mostly a "Big Robots Duke It Out Game", ala
Battletech, and Jovian Chronicles was DreamPod's RPG, am I wrong about
that?

Anyway, do you mind a few questions?

>Very Quick Silhouette Task overview:

>Stats:
>	Stats are rated (similar to Ars Magica) from apx -3 to +3 with 0 being
>'average'.  Positive stats are above average, while negative stats are
>below average.

>	eg- Ivan has an Agility well above average.  His AGL is +2.

Rolled, or assigned from a point pool?

>Skills:
>	Skills are rated from none, to 0 and up, on basically the same scale as
>Traveller skills.  each skill has a controlling attribute (eg-
>Small Arms is controlled by Agility).
>	
>	eg- Ivan has a Small Arms skill of 3 - he is a very well trained
>professional.

Again, is this a point system, or is there some sort of career process
similar to the one most of us know and love?

>Task Resolution:
>	A Skill/Stat combination is chosen for the task, and a
>difficulty is set, from 1 up  The higher the number the harder the task.

>	The player rolls a number of dice equal to his skill level, and the
>highest value on a single die is taken.  *The dice are not totalled.*  If
>a player rolled three dice and got 5, 3, and 4.  His roll would be 5. 
>	To this roll the stat value is added.  If this total is equal or greater
>than the task number, the character succeeds.  The more your total exceeds
>the task difficulty, the greater the success. 

>	eg- Ivan wants to shoot the apple off of his son's head.  Due to the size
>and difficulty, the GM determines that the difficulty for this task is 6.
>	Ivan rolls three dice (since his Small Arms skill is 3).  The dice roll:  
>2   5   3.
>	Ivan takes the highest die and adds his AGL: (5+2 = 7).  His total is 7,
>which is greater than the difficulty number.  Ivan succeeds at his task.

Hum, isn't there also something about if you roll a 6 you roll again? Or is
it that if you have more than one 6 the extra 6's add to your score as
1's..something like that?

    eg- The sheriff isn't impressed with his shot, so Ivan goes a step
        farther.  He tries to shoot a spinning quarter out of the air.
        For *this* trick the GM rules that he needs an 8!  
        
        Ivan rolls 6 6 3, so he adds (6+1+2 = 9).  He succeeds with a
        +1, so the GM decides that he "centered" the quarter rather than
        "just" clipping it...finally impressing the sheriff.

I like the concept of Silhouette, if I've got it straight, but I don't know
if the numbers "crunch" well, or how the concepts of Traveller style Tasks
would translate.  

Besides, if I'm going to use a point system, with a single die why wouldn't
I use CORPS?  

Maybe this isn't the place to ask it, and I *don't* want to set off Task
Wars, but I'd really like to see the proponents of various systems post
reviews of them, and how they fit with Traveller.  We have people here that
use:

GURPS
CORPS
D6 (Starwars)
FUDGE
FUZION (or Hero anyway)
Silhouette

...among others, to play Traveller.

Do you think it would be possible for the proponents of each system to post
how their favorite system works with Traveller?  What they like best? 
Least?  How they handle point vs random character generation? How close, or
far away, from Traveller's skill set do they go?  How well does it fit with
the "feel" of Traveller and into the orthodox background?

Or do you think if anybody tried something like that they would be torched
in the ensuing flames?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #361
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, April 3 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 362



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re : jump drive exit points/planetary assaults
Re: Milieu Zero - Economics
Re: FarFuture Announcement
Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this
Data rings
Re: The death of IG
RE: Data rings
[T98#352] Mailing Lists
[T98#353] RFC: Lasers/Fiber Optics
[T98#353] FASA - What's in a name?
[T98#354] IG Archive
Re: [T98#353] FASA - What's in a name?
Re: IMTU Codes (a very humble apology)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 23:06:41
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re : jump drive exit points/planetary assaults

>From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
>Subject: Re: jump drive exit points
>
>I would think that warship fleets would think that this is very important. An
>attacking fleet that did a maximum jump would come in with dry tanks, and thus
>NOT want to pop in on the neighbors; they want to come in somewhere undetected
>and move immediatly to the gas giant to refuel. 
>Seth
>

The problem is that it's a fairly trivial task, given FFS2's sensor ranges,
to build a small ship that can act as a sensor picket.

Assuming that you jump in to a distant point, refuel and then go attack the
mainworld (or whatever) is that the mainworld will be prepared when you
actually come in.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 15:08:14 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero - Economics

At 05:09 PM 4/3/98 +0000, Jo Grant wrote:
>John Macpherson writes:
>>I'm as big a die-hard for economics in role-playing as anyone,
>>and I thought the econ parts of M:0 and PE were terrible.
>Lets look at some of your misinterpretations...
>
>>The plan for the trading guild, or whatever it was, for starting wars
>>on planets so that they could sell weapons was ridiculous.

>Actually, the policy was that by supporting dictators early on, it would
>naturally lead to the dictators wanting to fight each other...

It seems to me that this would result very early on in the locals realizing
that the real enemy was the 3I.  Once the locals get wind of the 3I being
the evil masterminds behind the destruction of the economy, government, and
way of life, you will have serious economic dislocation, and corresponding
hatred.  If the 3I folk do not act in accordance with their stated beliefs,
it becomes even more obvious.  (Even if they get a few worlds, eventually,
someone is going to spot the connection if they do it too often.)

As a present day example, we are very good nowadays at spotting the real
fiscal purpose behind the so-called charitable organization.  Similarly,
people in the M0 era should be able to spot fairly quickly the kind of
behaviors that are common, if the ZSC is the standard method of connecting
with a new culture.  Furthermore, anyone who had a trace of the honor
talked about in the books would have a hard time considering a deal
designed to destroy the fabric of the victim society honorable.

NB, I am not claiming that the 3I was particularly honorable, only that it
is portrayed as such, and so either the people living at the time thought
it was, and thus would be aware of when they were going "beyond the pale."
About the only thing we have to go on is the number of times both Cleon and
his detractors called "honor" into question.  If they did not want it a
focus, it would not have been mentioned so many times.

>Their "military advisors" to the different factions are specifically
>trained to keep them focused on killing each other rather than the base
>population. Since they are all in contact with each other they can
>orchastrate the war to elliminate excess military bodies on the planet and
>engineer it so the best person wins. When you then have one single
>planetary government they turn around and support a coup or revolution to
>replace them with a less militant body.

Your history is your only credit in diplomacy.  With this kind of history,
anyone who hears about the Imperium is going to know that the 3I is the
enemy.  Consider - travel may be expensive, but M0 is filled with examples
of traders and navies operating YEARS outside the borders of the Imperium.
With this kind of traffic, there will be crosstalk.  People will find out
what the 3I has done, and if they actually have this kind of history, they
will be diplomatically doomed.


Had the ZSC had its main policy be, instead, "one world, one government.
No exceptions."  then objections to the "there can be only one" policies
becomes a moot point.  People know what is coming, and feel somewhat safer.
 This might be politically harder, as then planetary sovereignty is
challenged, but at least the rest of the universe is not going to be
stunned to hear that the 3I is resculpting planetary governments.

Destroying a government you helped put in place, though, is a terrible
idea, as nobody trusts you again to help them, or even contact them.
Certainly, those who had not yet joined would eventually find out, and
would likely try banding together.  The policy of ignoring all of the
dangerous worlds in Core to concentrate on the ones militarily unable to
help out would seem to make this more dangerous - anyone in Core is going
to know the character of the 3I.  As a result, economic self interest would
indicate playing as straight as needed to keep warfare from breaking out on
the frontier, and revolution in the interior.

As always, it is a matter of scale - if Zhunastu did this once in a hundred
worlds, then people may not have heard, and the worlds would not complain.
Doing this on virtually every world means that everyone finds out fast, and
M0, to me, implied that the ZSC policies were regularly in use on every
world they could get to.

>>Not only was it immoral and everything the Imperium should be
>>against, it was bad business.

>I won't argue immorality, except to point out that the Imperium was all
>about business. Why is this bad business? You clean out a bunch of
>repressive, exploitive regiems, who continue their domination through
>threat of violence and replace them with one that perpetuates itself
>through _economic_ means. You ensure that minimal damage is done to
>civilians and maximum damange done to military types who might be a problem
>alter trying to reassert a military dictatorship.

I doubt whether most pre-existing regimes were oppressive or exploitive
until the ZSC people came knocking.  Some, certainly, were, but stable
government is not compatible with oppression, over the long term.  Also,
most worlds are rather proud of their militaries, and once they get even a
hint that the outsiders are working together, then they are going to be
VERY suspicious.  In effect, they are running planet wide conspiracies that
attack (in the minds of the natives) their most cherished institutions.
Not to put to fine a point on it, I know a number of Irish who will not
talk to anyone who is Scot's Irish even now, generations away from the home
soil.

Consider - from the point of view of the locals, the first actions in the
ZSC will most likely cause a worldwide depression by undermining the
currency, the manufacturing, and the social structures.  (Social structure
is not directly addressed, but when you hit the first two, as well as
discrediting the military, you are going to cause dislocation.  Major
warfare will also have serious economic implications.)  When a major goal
of your work is the removal of the backing for currency and the reliance on
foreign currency and trade goods for vital industrial process, you are
going to have someone who figures it out.


I do not doubt that these techniques were used successfully occasionally, I
just do not think this can be the default strategy.

Considering the present situation on Earth.   Would it work to tell us
straight out that Imperial trade must take place in manufactured goods,
Imperial credits, and raw materials, and point out that trade issues are
settled with one and only one body on the planet?  Would it work better to
skulk behind the scenes, and engineer the alteration of our world economy
and the revaluation into Imperial credits and dependence on Imperial
machinery?

I think we might do better on both sides if the process was above board,
and if enlightened self interest was made fairly clear.  For example -
fusion plants bought with Imperial credits get a ten percent discount.
Taxes by Imperial corporations on local soil are paid in Imperial credits.
And so on - this is the kind of trade war that the 3I will win, but which
will not cause nearly as many people to be out of work, uneducated, and poor.

In my mind, trying to get every last credit from the planet is bad
business, because the people are going to figure out very fast that every
dime that is important goes off planet, and that they are not getting new
infrastructure and new training that makes them wealthy.  But then, I
figure the most likely response to off planet intervention is mistrust.
Credulous locals might not see the problem.

>In addition to accomplishing this it also leads into the next phase which
>was infrastructure development. Loads of off-world contract for immediate
>money, and you are building their workforce into rather efficient

>producers. So that they can make goods that are worth selling off-world.
>Where's the bad business?

My reading of M0 differs from yours.  I know you are describing what you
meant to communicate, but I read it rather differently, as did the three
people I asked to read it.  In their minds, they imagined the introduction
of sweatshops to exploit native labor, and absolutely minimal education, as
well as the overturn of the social order.  The capital investments seemed
to be primarily in means of paying the offworlders for the goods you now
need to have to survive, as your infrastructure has been flattened by
technological change.

It seems more likely that the population is going to want to feel in charge
of their destiny, and that it is very hard to get a conspiracy to work.  In
general, if you behave in accordance with your societal principles, then
you have some kind of consistency, which means that as long as your
societal principles are aligned with your goals, you will likely achieve
them.  In the case of the 3I, those goals are expansion, stability, and a
lack of threats.  In my mind, this requires more uplift than the ZSC
methods would likely do.

NB, I do not disagree that many companies nowadays would take a "next
fiscal quarter" approach, but I think this is an aberration, and will
result in a serious economic adjustment.  If you do not plan for the short
(five year) term, you cannot survive very well when you hit someone who
can.  The 3I has the cultural heritage of a people who planned for
centuries, and survived for millennia, and people who planned for the short
term, and crashed.  Hopefully, they figured out that you need to go for the
long term dollar as well as the short, and sometimes, letting some else get
rich can make you richer.


>>You can rob a man once, but you can trade with him forever.

>Absolutely. The early phases are designed to remove the base raw-material
>wealth. If their currency is backed by a gold-standard you want to remove
>the gold and move them to a system where their currency is backed by
>Imperial Credits. The process is designed to turn them into a great market.

Here is where I disagree, I think.  A better approach, imho, would be to
ignore the local currency.  Allow them to continue to use it, and do not
try depleting gold stocks.  Instead, allow those who have the material
wealth to use it to buy off planet goods.  This will accomplish the same
end, but the different reason means that you are more likely to get the
effect you want.  In my mind, if you try to accomplish two ends, you are
more likely to accomplish none, whereas one end might just be doable.  In
my mind, the ZSC goal is to introduce Imperial credits, Imperial
technology, and Imperial work with minimal disruption to their social
structure, as then, people are more likely to buy your non military goods.
Further, you need local manufacturing, because shipping across stars is
expensive, and the canonical prices seem to assume a 90% subsidy, if my
reading of present day prices is any indicator.

>That is the whole point. The initial raw-material exploitation is designed
>to put them in a position where they _have_ to adopt the Imperial economic
>policies. These policies then turn them first into producers, further
>funding the expansion, and then into consumers, generating wealth through
>taxation.

If they feel it is being rammed down their throats, they are not going to
be nearly as happy as if it a much desired prize.  Further, you are more
likely to have people who understand the world running it if the nobles and
wealthy created by this influx were in the main powerful prior to the
change on this world.  IMTU, I solved this with trade classifications, and
worlds had to work quite hard to get better classifications which allowed
purchase of more goods.  The primary rule was that technology which would
completely destabilize the realm was in general not imported, while
anything that could improve education levels, core infrastructure, and
other things like that could be.  I also allowed Imperial veterans far
greater latitude and a break on duties, which encouraged ex military to go
back to their home worlds as seeds of technical knowledge and equipment. 

>>The theme of "everything is based on economics" does not mean
>>"everything is based on evil, conniving exploitation" as the authors of
>>M:0 seemed to believe.
>The aim was to come up with a self-sustaining, progressively expanding
>economic plan. Maybe you missed the finer points or they weren't expressed
>clear enough. I hope the above has clarified things.


I argue whether the plan was self sustaining, simply because I assume a
lot less acceptance, and a lot more information flow.  It is very hard to
keep people from finding out your diplomatic past, especially with the
sieve like borders the Imperium kept.  As a result, Cleon's hammering away
about honor will become a strength, rather than hypocrisy.  In another
post, I will put out my own version of the period.  I have adopted a number
of the ideas from M0, but I think I had a different slant that you did.

>Rapacious? Well, certainly profit-orientated. If you want to judge solely
>by quality of lifestyle, income levels and other capitalist measures there
>is a strong argument that uplifted worlds are much better off than they
>were. On a macro-political sense they have much less control over their own
>destiny, general policy and procedure, but the individuals in those
>societies do rather well from it.

My complaint was not their attempts to maximize profit so much as their
seeming unawareness of the incredible level of resentment the stated ZSC
policies would produce.  This resentment would produce a new wave of
Luddites, and it seems like they could do a better job by having some
allies as well.  It was my feeling that 3I corporations would be a lot
clearer on the long term benefits of development that expanded markets and
buying power.  As a result, the ZSC policies, which seemed a lot more like
a way to push the locals aside and take over completely, did not mesh well
for me.

>>John Jacob Astor ... Rockefeller ... Cecil Rhodes ...

>And they will probably say wonderful things about Bill Gates when he is
>dead, buried and gone.

Agreed.  There are degrees, though.  A ruler with principles is often
better remembered by history, and often more popular than one without.
Those principles do not have to mean doing things not in line with
reasonable business practice, only that the actions selected are those in
accordance with societal expectation and some degree of long term planning,
which the ZSC rules do not seem to be.  How, after all, are the locals
going to react when they find out that the President, the Premier, and the
Prime Minister were all supported until the time came for the Shah to take
over, who was then cut off and isolated, while a trade consortium came down.

The Navy can stop any given revolt, but you cannot have too many of them
before civil wart saps your expansionistic ability.

>>The Imperium
>>had to be founded on the idea of a new dawn of interstellar civilization

>>that the people stuck in the Long Night longed for.

>Sure, that what the propaganda says. That's what the history books say. In
>reality nothing is done for idealism. On one hand people cry for "hard
>science". Yet here you are crying for "fairytale plots". Hmmm.

You miss an important point, I think.  Having someone want to improve the
world, bring back technology and civilization, and become disgustingly
wealthy and powerful are not irreconcilable goals.  Someone whose only aim
was improvement of the human condition would be unlikely to become Emperor,
but someone who felt that proper action was important might do very well.
If nothing else, by making sure that resentment is low, an Emperor can have
a stronger Empire.  One good way to keep resentment low is to make people
feel like they are a part of it, and further, that it has always been this
way.

Let me be a bit more specific.  Cleon, IMTU, is one of the good guys.
Hard, cold, and brutal at need, but his end goal is a unified, strong,
expansionistic Imperium.  One of his major choices was a rejection of
Vilani common culture, and so he had to allow planets a reasonable degree
of sovereignty.  He also wants the process to continue, which means Sylea
cannot be the only source of trained technicians, ships, and equipment, and
thus worlds get plentiful grants to build up their industrial base.  (I
know, this is very non canon.)

"Irurk is happy to be part of the 3I.  We are better fed, better clothed,
and better paid now than before.  Our fourteenth king is ruling well, and
the House of Commons is delighted with the new cell phones that let every
member of the body politic register their feelings with their ministers.
Our traditional holidays are coming up, and our lives are much like they
used to be, save for the odd person going off to the Imperial school."


The above is a good sign, since people do, in general, want things to
continue as they have been.  By making it possible to feel both a part of
something new, as well as part of an old tradition, you make the Imperium a
stronger body, imho.

>Thousands of civil
>servants on hunderds of worlds who really belive in the concept of a great,
>benificient empire. The propaganda become the reality and _then_ you have
>the idealism you are aspiring for.

We may be more in agreement than I thought.  Why not have the engines of
creation spring into being, though, early in the M0 period, rather than
after.  The consolidations wars are going to make for some rather nasty
fights, and it seems less likely to get that kind of idealism win the midst
of a major war than in a period of expansion.  Consider - the first few
years are among the quieter years in terms of open warfare.

>>Let the Civil War and the Rebellion tell the story of an empire
>>grown old, cynical, and corrupt.  Milieu Zero should be about the hope of
>>new beginings.
>Actually, the perfect setting for what you are describing is just after
>Milieu Zero. Think about it. As they expand the Imperium spreads all sorts
>of propaganda about how wonderful and idealistic it is. It's good PR.

Certainly a possibility, but it would be hard, imho, to recover from the
potentially disastrous early days, and the mistakes made.  I do believe
that every one of the events you talked about took place, just not that
this was the primary contact technique.  I have read that section as
propaganda by people who did not agree, based on the relatively small
number of worlds where it did happen.  IMTU, the cynical and corrupt regime
being replaced is the Sylean Federation, and the young, idealistic state is
the 3I.  Other interpretations are, of course, possible, but it seems to me
that this keeps a degree of consistency until the expansionistic Imperium
runs out of steam, and starts consuming itself.

One final comment:
Kelly St. Clair wrote:
>We live in a time with damn few heroes.  I speak not of celebrities, or
>rich men, but heroes.  We have begun to doubt whether they even exist.
>Witness the steady crumbling of the legend of John F. Kennedy.  No real
>person could stand the level of scrutiny we give the well-known these
>days.  And we deride fictional heroes as "superficial", "idealized" 
>and "unrealistic."

A true thing, and why I have made a point of trying to set my M0 campaign
in a world that does have heroes.  They are aware of the failing of the
commoners and the great, and have far more resources to discover any
peccadillos, but as a society, the 3I is willing to believe in the concept
of the hero, and thus is willing to cut some degree of slack to both the
heroes and the normal folk.  They are not terribly forgiving beyond a
certain level, so gross incompetence or villainy will not work very well,
but the petty levels are usually ignored.

I do think we would be in a better world were we more willing to forgive
the small stuff and concentrate on the large issues today.  Not ignorance
of failings or blanket forgiveness for crimes, just a simple acceptance of
human nature and limitations.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 02:24:37 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: FarFuture Announcement

> > Now, if ou wanted to do a starship combat
> > game...FASA would definately be the way to go.
> 
> Ground Zero Games/ Geo-hex.  Ever play Full Thrust??  Great game.
Yesssss, excellent game indeed. Maybe if marc made a deal with GZG, wed finally get a
real Traveller-FT Crossover book. 
> 
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 18:09:30 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives... no really, read this

> Sounds reasonable to me, but I would make it a feature that would add
> cost to a J-drive when a ship is constructed, and be a difficult and
> expensive item to "retrofit". I would think that it would be a
> standard feature on military ships though. Perhaps you might want to
> make the link a bit more stable and faster when linking ships of the
> same class too, since their systems would be almost identical.

I'm working on a modular jump freighter.  Its a thick 350 dTon disk with a 100 ton
bay for a modular cutter. (8) 15 dTon modules clip onto the perimeter but the flats
are clear.  Its equiped with a Lanthanum coil jump drive which produces a spherical
bubble large enough for an 800 dTon spherical ship.  The idea is that two domeships
clip onto the flats for jumps.  In the sphere configuration, it is jump2 capable.
Shedding the domes, it can perform jump3.

The concept is that you can mate several disks together.  Theoretically an unlimited
quantity (like a stack of coins) can be linked.  Practically, it's limited by the
interconnections the master computer can handle (probably TL modules).  Since you're
using modular jacks, connections are very fast. Initial lockdown is immediate, fuel,
power and computer linkage would take a couple man-hours each. Each jump drive would
have to be individually prepared, but in theory you've got complete crews for each
freighter.

In addition to the domes described above, I'm planning thrust modules to attach at
the end, like a locomotive.  Then the whole linked column could land like a
skyscraper...

As I'm envisioning it, jump coils produce a spherical jump bubble. Thus spherical
ships don't need the jump grid.  Other ships need the jumpgrid to stretch the jump
bubble into an appropriate shape (lest they leave behind parts sticking outside the
bubble).  In theory, you could inefficiently do without the jumpgrid by getting a
jump drive large enough to create a jump sphere with a diameter equal to the length
of the ship.  But this would be 27 times larger than it needs to be in the case of a
needle ship.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:12:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Data rings

Someone mentioned data rings a while back, they also are mentioned in
M0.

Well, real life is edging up again, this from the 30 March 1998 issue of
infoworld: (http://www.infoworld.com  look in the News section of the In
Print section)

March 30, 1998 (Vol. 20, Issue 13) 

Dallas' `Java ring' stores data 

Dallas Semiconductor has released the Crypto iButton, a hardware token
that runs on the Java Card 2.0 specification
and can be attached to rings, watches, wallets, and other articles to
provide authentication and data storage capabilities.
The company distributed several thousand copies on "Java rings" at JavaOne
in San Francisco last week. 

The iButton allows users to store private keys for encrypting messages,
sign digital documents, store personal
preferences, and other capabilities on the token. The iButton communicates
through a Blue Dot Receptor that creates a
pipeline to existing computers, and it is available at a price of $15. The
company also offers an iButton Toolkit for Java
for developers, priced at $50. 

The Crypto iButton, which implements a Java virtual machine, is a
monolithic chip with a high-speed, 8-bit
microprocessor, 32KB of ROM, 6KB of nonvolatile static RAM, a True Time
clock, and a high-speed math accelerator
for 1024-bit public key cryptography. The iButton Java ring is available
now at a price of $59.50. 

Dallas Semiconductor, in Dallas, is at http://www.dalsemi.com. 


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 18:27:00 -0500
From: Bill Rutherfotd <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: The death of IG

At 10:45 AM 4/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>When Imperium Games dies is that going to be the end of this list as well?
> 

I suspect not.  Other than the fact that they were the most recent
publisher of Traveller products, what has the TML got to do with IG?  Nothing.



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:42:34 -0800
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Data rings

Yeah, I went to JavaOne, and got "The Ring."  Pretty nifty.  They programmed
it to hold your business card information, as well as your favorite coffee
drink.  You could go to the espresso bar and "jack in," and ta-da!  They'd
bring you your drink!

The running joke was that we were now married to Java, and would never use
another language . . .  ;-)

Brian (99.9% Pure Java) Mays

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
>[mailto:owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Bruce
>Johnson
>Sent: Friday, April 03, 1998 3:13 PM
>To: Traveller Mailing List
>Subject: Data rings
>
>
>Someone mentioned data rings a while back, they also are mentioned in
>M0.
>
>Well, real life is edging up again, this from the 30 March 1998 issue of
>infoworld: (http://www.infoworld.com  look in the News section of the In
>Print section)
>
>March 30, 1998 (Vol. 20, Issue 13)
>
>Dallas' `Java ring' stores data
>
>Dallas Semiconductor has released the Crypto iButton, a hardware token
>that runs on the Java Card 2.0 specification
>and can be attached to rings, watches, wallets, and other articles to
>provide authentication and data storage capabilities.
>The company distributed several thousand copies on "Java rings" at JavaOne
>in San Francisco last week.
>
>The iButton allows users to store private keys for encrypting messages,
>sign digital documents, store personal
>preferences, and other capabilities on the token. The iButton communicates
>through a Blue Dot Receptor that creates a
>pipeline to existing computers, and it is available at a price of $15. The
>company also offers an iButton Toolkit for Java
>for developers, priced at $50.
>
>The Crypto iButton, which implements a Java virtual machine, is a
>monolithic chip with a high-speed, 8-bit
>microprocessor, 32KB of ROM, 6KB of nonvolatile static RAM, a True Time
>clock, and a high-speed math accelerator
>for 1024-bit public key cryptography. The iButton Java ring is available
>now at a price of $59.50.
>
>Dallas Semiconductor, in Dallas, is at http://www.dalsemi.com.
>
>
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 00:04:12 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#352] Mailing Lists

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:22:36 -0500, "Peter H. Brenton"
<pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:

>There are actually at least six Traveller Mailing lists, I bet there are
>some I forgot or overlooked, but here's what I can remember/research.

>The TML, You're on it.  For general discussions, annnouncements, basically
>The Trav-Tech Mailing list; send email to trav-tech-request@qrc.com with
>The Traveller Writers Guild; send email to hiwg-twg-request@qrc.com with
>The Traveller CD list; send email to trav-cd-request@qrc.com with the word
>The TNE list.  I know nothing about this list execpt that it exists.  When
>The ISBA (Imperial Ship Builders Association) was established for the
>There was once an "Xboat" list specifically for the discussion of Classic
>There is a Gurps discussion list, which has some Traveller discussions
>I hope others will not hesitate to add to this list if there are others.

There is the Traveller Culture Development List (formerly the
Traveller Language Development List), which is semi-funct; we go
through active and inactive phases.  Right now, Kenji has just
goaded us into a mildly active phase.  Mail to
listserv@mail.execnet.com with a body line of "subscribe
travlang".  If that doesn't work, write me personally and I'll
add you.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 00:04:16 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#353] RFC: Lasers/Fiber Optics

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:09:24 -0500, warmind@juno.com (james a
clem) wrote:

>I'd like your input on something.  I am toying with using a fiber optic
>system on ships to allow a centrally located (and thus protected) laser
>generator to discharge through focal arrays placed about the hull.  This
>would allow smaller ships to mount fewer lasers, and the focal arrays
>would use only small turrets compared with the standards and still get
>coverage they might need.  I know little about fiber optics, so please
>anyone out there comment.

I asked this question of my roommate (a B.S. Physics), in the
form "Fiber Optic Conduit - Laser - Discharge - Possible?".  He
indicated that he does not see it as possible; if the laser can
be conducted, it probably would be too weak to do anything; if
it's strong enough to do anything, it will probably vaporize the
conduit.

Now, that's strictly an issue of heat dissipation; if you can
sensibly handwave a conduit material that's 99.99999....%
efficient at dumping waste heat, or if you can cryofreeze the
conduits, you might be able to pull it off.  Or, if you have a
massively high temperature superduperconductor.  But those will
tend to unbalance things somehow; someone will always figure out
a use for it that wasn't forseen.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 00:04:27 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#353] FASA - What's in a name?

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:09:24 -0500, Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
wrote:

>dberry@hooked.net wrote:

>> But there is another factor that many forget.. FASA stands for Freedonian
>> AeroSpace Adminstration, and was born as a Traveller supplement company.
>> Anybody else remember the old tear-drop logo?

>Wasn't Freedonia the name of a fictional country in an old Marx Brothers movie?
>Complete with anthem, IIRC.

Can't say yea or nay on that one, but Fredonia (one 'e', same
pronunciation) is a town in upstate NY which is home to a State
University of New York campus (SUNY College at Fredonia), which
college is in turn home to the allegedly famous Fredonia Jazz
Band.  And I've heard rumors that the founders of FASA all went
to school there, but can't confirm.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 00:04:58 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#354] IG Archive

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 18:14:07 -0500, Kenneth Bearden
<dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:

>While the IG web page is still up, one of you beautiful Traveller web
>site holders out there should grab all of the info contained therein and
>place it on your web site.

>I'd hate to see the complete listing of TNS articles from all of
>Traveller's history lost when they stop maintaining the site.

Good thinking - I just grabbed the TNS (4/2, 21:00 EST), and,
with Marc's permission (or whoever's is necessary, and not before
I get it) I'll add it to FT.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:08:33 EST
From: CMcknight <CMcknight@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [T98#353] FASA - What's in a name?

FYI,

Freedonia was the country run by the Marx Brothers in the movie Duck Soup.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 19:09:50 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: IMTU Codes (a very humble apology)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> >Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 21:18:02 +1200
> >From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
> >Subject: Re: IMTU Codes
>
> >>Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:54:37 -0500
> >>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
> >>Subject: IMTU Codes
>
> >>How do you translate this stuff?  I can figure out most of the
> >>abbreviations, but not all.  plus and minus signs seem clear except when
> >>used more than once.  The @ and ! symbols loses me.  Any help?
>
> >>IMTU Code
> >>  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
> >>  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge
>
> >Since this is mine:

And its my fault for not saying it was Andrew's that I quoted.

Bloo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #362
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, April 4 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 363



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: T4 storyline
re: Re: A Couple of Questions...
re: YATTS: Heavy Gear
Re: CT and T?
re Archive for TML
GDW2/DGP2
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
Re: A question
Re: A question
Imperial Squadrons
Re: TNE
Re: YATTS: D6?
Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff
Re: Milieu Zero - Economics
Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff
re: YATTS: Heavy Gear
Re: CT and T?
YATTS: GURPS & Traveller
Re: CT and T?
Re: The last time...
Re: Traveller's future

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 16:08:40 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: T4 storyline

At 09:33 PM 4/3/98 +0000, trisen wrote:
>Also, don't underestimate the drawbacks of specialisation ...  if
>planet X builds Jump-3 drives with widgets  from  planet  Y  then
>planet X may not have bothered to know how to make widgets in the
>first place.  So when trade with planet Y ceases, planet X has to
>give up making Jump-3 drives.

As long as I am goring sacred cows, I might as well weigh in.

Specialization could cause a lot of problems if the interstellar net goes
down, but there are limits about just how far it is worth shipping
something.  Consider - if there is a source three parsecs away for Widgets,
and you have a J3 drive, you need to pay on the order a 20% markup to get
the stuff delivered from there by J3 ship, as opposed to a world just one
parsec away.

Now, if your desired parts are 9 parsecs away, then you will start seeing
three month turnaround times, assuming very efficient shippers, and that is
assuming that it is even worth paying the rather large shipment costs.  It
is more likely to be worth finding a source for Widgets that is closer than
that.  At what point, for instance, is it worth pay8ng a premium to get
them just a month after the order, rather than six?

From this perspective, I can see off planet imports staying important,
since higher tech goods will almost always need to be produced elsewhere,
but I cannot quite see it going much more than one jump of whatever length
is appropriate, save for really valuable goods.  Examples of the latter -
TL 15 goods in the Spinward Marches, Meson guns and screens if there are no
other TL12 worlds about, and so on.

As a result, it is pretty unlikely that trade with Planet Y is going to
cease without warning on an Imperium-wide scale, since they are just one
jump away.  I can believe a consolidation that caused massive
infrastructure moves, such as a wealthy world making sure that the
technologies it wanted were all available.

FWIW, I have the Long Night being caused by artificially low populations.
TL 9 in my opinion requires ~100 million people, unless they are fanatics,
and thus when trade was disrupted for more than a few decades, the worlds
below pop 8 or so had to create new economies.  Many did, massively
shipping people between worlds to make up a few more populous ones, and
others allowed TL to drop to a sustainable point.

Scott

>"The Air Force is pleased with the performance of the C-5A  cargo
>plane, although having the wings fall off at  8,000  hours  is  a
>problem." - Major General Charles F. Kuyk Jr.

Hee.
 
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:24:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Re: A Couple of Questions...

 "LLOYD ROBINSON" <LJR@sbscorp.com> wrote:

>My intent was to get materials for the game that I like to play, that's
>Traveller. I TRIED IG and then  FFE
>after IG did not respond. I got no replies.

IG was notoriously bad at dealing with orders (ask Rob Prior if you want a
really bad story). FFE had nothing to do with the distribution of T4 - Marc
is just selling old CT/MT/TNE stuff he got from the clearout of GDW's
warehouses. I suspect that Marc also gets silly volumes of email...

You really need to approach a distributer, but I can't recommend any in the
US. I can recommend a UK (London) based company but I suspect you are in
the US and you don't want to pay the 50% surcharge on postage.

>I hope that Steve Jackson Games does a better job at getting
>>the products to the customer.

They probably will, but you may still want to use a retailer/mail order
company. Perhaps one of the US list members can recommend somewhere.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:41:12 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: YATTS: Heavy Gear

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:

>Hey Dom!
>
>Is TML gearing up for our annual spring Task System Debate? ;->

Eh? Umm. Awakens from sleep... Hi Eris.

Probably. And it'll all end in tears when T4.1 gets published with the task
system that Marc outlined last spring/summer ;-) Anyway, it's at least a
biannual debate, if not seasonal...


>Do you think it would be possible for the proponents of each system to post
>how their favorite system works with Traveller?  What they like best?
>Least?  How they handle point vs random character generation? How close, or
>far away, from Traveller's skill set do they go?  How well does it fit with
>the "feel" of Traveller and into the orthodox background?
>
>Or do you think if anybody tried something like that they would be torched
>in the ensuing flames?

It could be done, but I reckon that flames will erupt pretty quickly.

Please can we discuss feudal technocracies instead as I missed that one and
haven't seen a re-run yet? Pretty please? :-)

Eris is *the* Heretic's heretic. But doesn't that make him an orthodox
belief for heretics?

Dom
(probably a sleeper agent for the canon police headed by Investigator Berry
- - it's all coming back to me now...)
(PS why did you address this to me, it's late, I've just been out playing
the Masquerade, and I'm tired and confused and relaxing with a Jamesons.)
(PPS Damn! Just blown my cover as a sad Goth! And there I was just drolling
at the thought of "Traveller: The Voyaging")
(PPPS That last bit wasn't serious. Normal service tommorrow)


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:18:48 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:

>Did WotC buy Gamma World from TSR?  If they did, then this was the correct
>way to do it.  If not, you should send the petition where it needs to be
>sent...  TSR.

WOTC bought *TSR* so they own the rights to all TSR's products...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:37:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re Archive for TML

Thanks for the info everyone, sorted now.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 20:15:33 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: GDW2/DGP2

Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Responded to David J. Golden who wrote:
>>         I guess my wishlist really is a wishlist, because at the top of it
>> is
>>
>>         GDW2 (Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank Chadwick ...)
>
>Well, if you're going to say that, I'd have to vote for DGP2, then.

OK. Have the flying pig drop the winning $105 million lottery ticket at my
apartment, and I'll make it happen within six months.

As long as we're wishing...  : - )

Andres said:
>Hmmm, the game is afoot.

Maybe even afoot-and-ahalf...

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:37:55 -0600
From: eldwyn@juno.com
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

Have you ever the show "America's Dumbest Criminals"? It's a series kinda
like "Cops", but full of stupid things bad guys do.

One of my favorite spots was a bank robber who specifically told the
teller *not* to put any exploding die packs in the money. (Permanent ink
or paint used to taint the money and make it unusable and hopefully stain
the bad guy, too.) Of course, the bank teller said OK, and of course, she
put one in anyway.

Well, the robber runs off with the money. But, as he runs off he puts the
money down his pants.  I don't know how explosive those packs really are,
but the reinactment made it look rather painful.

Try out the show if it's in your area. Many laughs and many ideas for
"special" NPCs.

MarioC

- --I consider being sick one of the great blessings in life,
  provided one is not too sick, and one does not have to work until one
is better....

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:43:24 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A question

I believe that it was in the novel "Anvil of Stars" that the alien
invaders destroyed the Earth in a very efficient fashion.  Take one
small moon, and using advanced gravitics technology convert half it's
mass into neutronium and the other half into anti-neutronium.  Send
both of these masses to Earth in precalculated orbits so that they
hit and enter the crust at the same time on opposite sides of the 
planet.  These masses spiral around each other all the way to the
core, creating massive earthquakes on their way (please note that
anti-neutronium will evidently not react explosively with normal
matter due to the electrons which act to keep the normal neutrons
well away from the anti-neutronium).  Previously, self replicating
machines built and planted numerous multi-megaton devices all along
the tectonic rifts.  At the moment that the neutronium and 
anti-neutronium meet, the nuclear devices fire fracturing the plates.
And thus the Earth explodes like an egg in the microwave.

In case you're wondering the remains of the planet are used to build
more hunter-killer ships.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: A question

>It takes an *astonishing* amount of energy to completely disrupt a
>planet.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:56:36 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A question

I wouldn't try to blow the planet into dust.  That may only 
serve to spread the smart fog.  You want to keep it on the
planet and make sure you get it.  I would suggest a complete 
cleansing of the planetary surface by detonating a constellation
of 1000 megaton anti-matter warheads in low orbit at the same time.
Then, while everything is still fresh pepper the entire surface with 
2-5 kt weapons to stir everything up.  Then light off a second
constellation of anti-matter warheads.

That'll probably get most of them.  You might want to be sure by 
mounting thrust plates on one side of the planet (powered by the
fusion reactors on the other side of course), and manuevering it
into the local star.

Just to be sure that the smart fog doesn't decide to point the 
planet in another direction, you might leave a fleet in very high
orbit.  That way they can destroy the fusion plants and thrust plates
if anything goes wrong.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leszek Karlik, aka Mike <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: A question

>So, the Earth will still be there. However, I've got to completely 
>obliterate a planet that's been taken over by smart fog, and I'll 
>guess it'll take a lot of near-c rocks to do it. (preferably blowing 
>most of the material into the sun)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 18:07:12 -0800
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Imperial Squadrons

I was in at my FLGS giving them the news about IG when I spotted a copy
of Imperial Squadrons. Has anyone out there had a look at this yet and
is it a worthwhile resource
to pick up?

Thanks in advance
Dave (who doesn't have any fancy travgeek sig.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 18:26:48 -0800
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: TNE

Ok so is this a published story? Where can I find it?

Dave

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> TNE wasn't about smash & grab. <snip>
> Here's an except from 'Absent Friends' Lisa's companions are defending a
> pre-Collapse medical installation from the barbarians. She's been sent for
> help and arrives as the final assault goes in. It the gear is smashed, with
> it goes the only hole of a vaccine for the Killer 'Flu.....
>
> As we approached the ruins I could see fighting going on, what looked like
> monks as well as troops from the Australian Empire, all attacking the area
> my friends were in.<snip of a good sounding story>
>       MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 20:28:22 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: YATTS: D6?

>Maybe this isn't the place to ask it, and I *don't* want to set off Task
>Wars, but I'd really like to see the proponents of various systems post
>reviews of them, and how they fit with Traveller.  We have people here that
>use:
>
>GURPS
>CORPS
>D6 (Starwars)
>FUDGE
>FUZION (or Hero anyway)
>Silhouette
>
>...among others, to play Traveller.
>
>Do you think it would be possible for the proponents of each system to post
>how their favorite system works with Traveller?  What they like best? 
>Least?  How they handle point vs random character generation? How close, or
>far away, from Traveller's skill set do they go?  How well does it fit with
>the "feel" of Traveller and into the orthodox background?
>
>Or do you think if anybody tried something like that they would be torched
>in the ensuing flames?
>
>
>Eris
>- -- 
>- -----------------------------------------------------------
>eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
>

I'm currently playing my own version of GURPS Traveller, in anticipation of
the official playtest.  One reason I am so eager to participate in the
playtest is that GURPS and Traveller are not a very good match:  the
assumptions about characters on which the games are based are very
different.  I want to see what Loren makes of this.

I was never very fond of totally random character generation, so I've
fudged in the direction of player control of the process for years.
Roll-and-assign characteristics, choose skills, adjust after the fact to
better conform to character concept, etc.  GURPS works well to create
specific, literary-style characters, but it is 'way too complicated and
detailed to model Traveller easily, and it is extremely difficult to scale
down to lower resolution.  (I posted my attempt in that direction a couple
of weeks ago - an abbreviated GURPS skills list designed for Traveller).

For equipment, however, I use FF&S1 and GURPS Vehicles 2d Ed. pretty much
interchangably, depending more on what I'm trying to design than on which
system it is for.  I use the real world numbers common to both (muzzle
energy, mass, power, etc.) to convert as required.  In my copious free
time, I'm planning to design the standard CT ship types under VE2 -
although I'm also looking for the 'official' tech level conversion from the
GT playtest.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 98 03:23 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
> On  2 Apr 98, Michael Koehne disseminated foul capitalist propaganda 

	to be precise, I'm a bourgeois foul^h^h^h^hanarchist, and not a
	foulish capitalist ;-)

Moin Lars Adler,

> I din't know that Lem had been given such bad reputation by the soviets.

	well in germany you'll find him in any library, and my Lem's are
	DDR printings, they've been cheaper, and and you had to exchange
	money when visting the DDR. And as beer was incredible cheap there,
	I prefered to spend them on books, mainly music notes, when I had
	Lem and M&E/Werke complete, to spare my liver.

	About the other book, Leszek mentioned. I read it, all my
	players read it, and its the horror behind TNE. I use stories
	around this planet, as I use stories around the Cadmus-Z92 and
	the Avery-Cabal, or around what happen in core with Lucan still
	alive. Its nothing players like to visit. Rumors all of them
	false build an open enigma, just to ice the blood.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 98 04:41 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero - Economics

Moin John Macpherson,

> 	As for the gold-standard somehow being more stable or viable then
> a freely floating currency, this is really something of a myth.  A 
> currency is as stable as demand for the goods that back it.

	IMTU the imperial credit is backed by a law and Vilani
	tradition, that subsidy freight has to be carried at Cr1000 per
	13.5m3 and jump, together with a well known rate of exchange
	table as a guide for local currencies.

	The reason is of course my uncanon techlevel to population relation,
	and that only large economies can build high tech levels. The
	government demand for a stable transportation price, makes the
	transport cost and capacity the limiting factor in economy.

	The alternate is wasting cargo space with gold, MT Hard Times
	had a table claiming that a gram of gold is worth Cr10 from
	tradition.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 06:22:54 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: Books fit to inspire Traveller Stuff

On  3 Apr 98, Lars Adler disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by 
writing:

> On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
> 
> > On  2 Apr 98, Michael Koehne disseminated foul capitalist propaganda 
>                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > by writing:
> > 
> > [...]
> > >  Stanislaw Lem : "Golem XIV" is one of his introductions. Its
>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[...]

> I din't know that Lem had been given such bad reputation by the
> soviets. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

What is it with the today's youth, eh? I ask you - what happened? I 
think the Sayat influence on this list can be clearly seen, as people 
assume I that by showing to the world the LIES of CAPITALISTIC 
EXPLOITERS I must be automatically a PINKO COMMIE MUTANT TRAITOR! 

Ha! 

Me, a propagator of Teocratical Feudal Technocracy!

This is insane!

(;-P)

> L.A.


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    Cars can damage your health. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 22:37:04 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: re: YATTS: Heavy Gear

On 04/04/98 at 01:41 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>>Is TML gearing up for our annual spring Task System Debate? ;->

>Eh? Umm. Awakens from sleep... Hi Eris.

>Probably. And it'll all end in tears when T4.1 gets published with the
>task system that Marc outlined last spring/summer ;-) Anyway, it's at
>least a biannual debate, if not seasonal...

But with Ken back it's a *must* do function! ;->

>Eris is *the* Heretic's heretic. But doesn't that make him an orthodox
>belief for heretics?

Yes, but I'm also an unorthodox heretic...whatever that means. ;->

>(PS why did you address this to me, it's late, I've just been out playing
>the Masquerade, and I'm tired and confused and relaxing with a Jamesons.)

Because I misread a name and addressed it to you instead of Danny Moody.
;->

>(PPS Damn! Just blown my cover as a sad Goth! And there I was just
>drolling at the thought of "Traveller: The Voyaging")

Speaking of new publications, has anybody else seen _TRAVELLER: Gateway to
the Stars_, a new novel from Pocket Books?  I saw it tonight, didn't buy
it, but it contains a 10-15 page T4 brief by Marc Miller in the back. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 21:02:46 -0800
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

> Did WotC buy Gamma World from TSR?  If they did, then this was the correct
> way to do it.  If not, you should send the petition where it needs to be
> sent...  TSR.
> 
> Chris


Yes, WotC bought out Gamma World, then buried it for all time.  I don't
even think that bloody "Star Gate" from the movie was as well hidden and
forgotten.  :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 22:59:01 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller

On 04/03/98 at 08:28 PM,  Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> said:

>I'm currently playing my own version of GURPS Traveller, in anticipation
>of the official playtest.  One reason I am so eager to participate in the
>playtest is that GURPS and Traveller are not a very good match:  the
>assumptions about characters on which the games are based are very
>different.  

I've been boning up on GURPS for the same reason.  In the past, I've worked
on ways to get Traveller and GURPS together, but have never followed all
the way through with a game..much less campaign.  I honestly can't tell you
why, GURPS worked well in a fantasy game and a Tw2k crossover I GM'ed
*years* ago, and I played in a space game that worked too.

>I want to see what Loren makes of this.

Yes.

>I was never very fond of totally random character generation, so I've
>fudged in the direction of player control of the process for years.
>Roll-and-assign characteristics, choose skills, adjust after the fact to
>better conform to character concept, etc.  

I've never been fond of totally point-purchase OR totally random character
generation, but I do *like* the develop during a career method that is the
soul (to steal an expression from the absent HH) of Traveller.

Here's one of many possible semi-random Stat generation ideas:

    Distribute (20 + 6d6) among the 6 attributes, minimum 2, maximum 12

    The player can tailor the distribution as he sees fit, but the
    actual number varies enough to keep the results unpredictable.

>GURPS works well to create specific, literary-style characters, but it
>is 'way too complicated and detailed to model Traveller easily, and it
>is extremely difficult to scale down to lower resolution.  

Yes, it's much too easy to get bogged down.  That's why I have been asking
about something called Career Templates over on the GURPS list. If I
understand this concept right, they are the basic requirements for careers,
*partially* created characters.  If someone whats to play a Starship Pilot
with a Merchant background, they could take Templates for each and have 3/4
of their character finished right there...the rest is the customization
needed to make the character uniquely theirs.

>(I posted my attempt in that direction a couple of weeks ago - an
abbreviated GURPS skills list designed for Traveller).

Could you send me a copy. I either missed it or it missed me.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:37:37 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> 
> WOTC bought *TSR* so they own the rights to all TSR's products...

Okay, let me put this another way.  Okay, if Merc Pharmaceuticals <ugh... 
I never could spell that word> buys, say, Calgon Vestal Labs, then who do
you go to when you want to complain about a Calgon Vestal product?  Do you
send the complaint to Merc or Calgon Vestal?  Calgon Vestal.  If you have
business with Merc, you send it to Merc.

Now, WotC acquired TSR.  TSR is still TSR and deals with TSR stuff.  WotC
is still WotC and still deals with WotC stuff.  Although WotC owns TSR,
WotC is not TSR, it just owns TSR.  TSR is not WotC, it is just owned by
WotC.  WotC might be nice enough to forward TSR stuff to TSR, but perhaps
they aren't.  To save on confusion, stuff intended for TSR should be sent
to TSR.  Stuff intended for WotC should be sent to WotC.  If you have
business with TSR, send it to TSR not WotC.  WotC owns the rights to TSR's
products, because it owns TSR, but, to repeat myself WotC is *not* TSR and
TSR is *not* WotC.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 00:38:59 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: The last time...

On 04/02/98 at 04:05 PM,  Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com said:

>From the TNE news service
>(http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Traveller/news.html):

>"The last time something like this happened was in the reign of Arbellatra
>in 632."

>     Oh! If that isn't a portentous comment I don't know what is!

Yes, but what does it mean? ;-p

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 00:50:50 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller's future

On 04/02/98 at 08:23 AM,  dberry@hooked.net said:

>>  Steve Jackson Games

>That would be nice, if we could avoid the SJG look for the games.  I don't
>think this will happen because Steve would be in compitition with himself.

Maybe, maybe not.  SJG produces several rpgs, GURPS, In Nomie, Toon, Car
Wars, all of which *could* be in competition with each other, but can also
supplement each other.  There *are* economies of scale.

>>  Wizards of the Coast (though they won't due to "Alternaty")

>Ick.

I feel about WoC the way I feel about MicroSoft, and it ain't a *good*
feeling.  Why would they want to produce Traveller anyway?  And Marc
probably isn't interested in *selling* Traveller, just licensing it like he
did with IG/SP.

>BTRC comes to mind as a good choice.

Quality-wise, yes, but BTRC is essentually *just* Greg Porter.  I suspect
BTRC would be under-capitalized to handle the purchase, development and
marketing for another line.  Not the way *we'd* like anyway.

If you want my out-of-the-loop opinion, it'll be none of the above...and
nobody that anybody here guessed.  No, I don't know, I just think it'll be
from somewhere in left field.

Did anybody but me notice the new TRAVELLER novel in your local bookstores? 
Did Marc announce it was coming? If he did, I missed it.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #363
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, April 4 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 364



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The last time...
Interstellar Trade
In defense of T4
Re: Traveller's future
Traveller Book
Foot/feet (was: GDW2/DGP2)
Re: Hand weapons shooting down ships (long)
Automation IMTU
Re: Imperial Squadrons
Re: GURPS & Traveller
TravIRC (was: Chat Topic: Traveller Timeline)
re: Hyperdrive
Re: Imperial Squadrons
Re: Traveller's future

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 01:11:36 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: The last time...

On 04/02/98 at 05:10 PM,  "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org> said:

>"The last time something like this happened was in the reign of Arbellatra
>>in 632."

>>     Oh! If that isn't a portentous comment I don't know what is!

>Foreshadowing, your guide to quality literature!(tm)

>What I found even more interesting than this, though, was the Type TI
>  (or should I say TJ?) that blasted through the Capital traffic pattern
>  in an awful big hurry.  Anyone care to speculate on its cargo?  My
>  off-the-cuff guess, without doing the math on the travel time, is
>  the Real Strephon hurrying back from his review of Longbow in time
>  to speak at the Archduke's funeral...

Would he have had time?  Well...if word was sent by ImpSec of the discovery
of a plot that was being "handled" well *before* the Archduke's acident,
then...hum...

OTOH, we're in a different TU here, so let's not get hung up on plots that
existed elsewhen. There may be something else going on here...of course,
there is! ;->

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 17:30:43
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Interstellar Trade

>Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 16:08:40 -0800
>From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>Subject: Re: T4 storyline
>
>At 09:33 PM 4/3/98 +0000, trisen wrote:

>As long as I am goring sacred cows, I might as well weigh in.
>
>Specialization could cause a lot of problems if the interstellar net goes
>down, but there are limits about just how far it is worth shipping
>something.  Consider - if there is a source three parsecs away for Widgets,
>and you have a J3 drive, you need to pay on the order a 20% markup to get
>the stuff delivered from there by J3 ship, as opposed to a world just one
>parsec away.
>

No, you have to pay circa 2000 credits per 14 cubic meters of widgets to go
jump-3. Now, if there are 100 widgets per m3, thats 1400 widgets. Call it
1.5 credits per widget.

Therefore, if your 10 liter widget costs, say, 50 credits, and by exporting
from one world to four you can double the size of the factory and get a 10%
price discount, then specialisation and exchange is well worthwhile.

>Now, if your desired parts are 9 parsecs away, then you will start seeing
>three month turnaround times, assuming very efficient shippers, and that is
>assuming that it is even worth paying the rather large shipment costs.  It
>is more likely to be worth finding a source for Widgets that is closer than
>that.  At what point, for instance, is it worth pay8ng a premium to get
>them just a month after the order, rather than six?

You are doing point-to-point shipping, so you should get a 10 day
turnaround (no week in port twiddling thumbs while the purser and captain
look for a cargo). Call it 30 days, 35 days tops to go 9 parsecs with a
jump-3 ship.

Given the Traveller technologies and a presumed 3% interest rate, shipping
costs just arent that high relative to the costs of goods you can ship.

>
>>From this perspective, I can see off planet imports staying important,
>since higher tech goods will almost always need to be produced elsewhere,
>but I cannot quite see it going much more than one jump of whatever length
>is appropriate, save for really valuable goods.  Examples of the latter -
>TL 15 goods in the Spinward Marches, Meson guns and screens if there are no
>other TL12 worlds about, and so on.
>

Scott, what do you define as 'really valuable' ... Cr 10 000 per m3 ?

>FWIW, I have the Long Night being caused by artificially low populations.
>TL 9 in my opinion requires ~100 million people, unless they are fanatics,
>and thus when trade was disrupted for more than a few decades, the worlds
>below pop 8 or so had to create new economies.  Many did, massively
>shipping people between worlds to make up a few more populous ones, and
>others allowed TL to drop to a sustainable point.

Fair enough. Personally, I believe that the Long Night had an exogenous
cause - a sudden increase in misjump probabilities. Once misjumping goes up
to about 5% per jump, insurance and freight costs start to become
prohibitive, which leads to the collapse of the financial and trading
sectors, which pull the rest of the economy down with them.

Once misjump chances went down to historically normal levels, all the
various societies that still had starfaring capability started to expand
again.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 01:56:57 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: In defense of T4

On 04/02/98 at 07:39 PM,  "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net> said:

>> my game.  Given these considerations, is there anything from T4 that's worth
>> picking up before its gone?  Thanks

>Ed, I too am a CT player, recently starting again.  While the T4  system
>gets a lot of flack around here, I found that the character  generation
>and experience rules allowed my new players to have some  better rounded
>characters, that weren't about to die of old age!   Unlike my old CT
>campaigns of 15 years ago, when my players had 5 or  6 skills and were 62!

You know, I've never run across a *perfect* game, and I never expect to.

Most of us, me included, have taken our shots at the T4 system over the
last 18 months, but I think there is much about the game that worked,
worked very well.  Did outsiders think our constant complaints and changes
meant the system was bad?  They shouldn't have, it meant we were doing what
Traveller players and GM's always do..we were tinkering.

Personally, I liked the concept behind the task system very much.  If I
hadn't liked it so much, I wouldn't have bothered everybody so much with
all my posts about it's shortcomings and suggestions for improving it. I
don't think Ken Bearden would have argued so strongly for his KB 2.0 fix if
he didn't think the underlying concept was good, either.  Marc's T4.1
drafts continue with this concept, improving it..not to my satisfaction,
but then *whatever* is to my satisfaction.  ;->

The CharGen system was a nice one.  More streamlined than CT/MT, but it got
more skills onto our character's sheets, and it let you work random,
semi-random, or by choice.  Yes, I complained.  Yes, I wanted improvements. 
Yes, Marc's T4.1 drafts look like improvements, and yes, if it get's
published I'll still want to tweak it.

The personal combat system took a lot of heat, but it also worked..no
matter what some vocal critics on certain newsgroups might have said. ;->
Reducing Characteristics through injury *is* the Traveller way, and
combined with the task system made sense.  Personally, I think it could
have been more deadly, but that was easy enough to arrange, and several of
us applied "fixes" involving hit locations and secondary tracks for damage. 


If CSC's VDS didn't have that funky (and incompatible) log armor it would
have been a killer vehicle design system.  Shoot!  It's a killer system
anyway. Kudos to Greg Porter!

FFS2 suffers only from bad layout, a stupid typographic mistake, and the
lack of time and space.  Ok, I would have done some things differently, but
even to my heretic eye FFS is an excellent book and system for designing
everything from hand weapons up to starships.  Mucho kudos to Dave Golden
and Guy Garret!

I'm not going to expand on Pocket Empires, Psionics Institutes, Naval
Architects Manual, Imperial Squadrons, Emperor's Arsenal, but each of them
has value, in some cases a *lot* of value.  Ok, there were some *less*
valuable books (stinkers ;-), but what line doesn't have them? Notice I
didn't mention the M0 setting, like others that have commented recently it
didn't excite me, but it wasn't a dog either.  OTOH, the disappearance of
Starships and First Survey will be unlamented by most of us.

All in all, the T4 line was a strong first edition effort.  All it needed
was time.  Time to develop.  Time for second editions (T4.1, foex) to be
written.  And time to have done it right the first time.

So, in answer to the question, yes there's a lot of T4 worth picking up.
Most of it.


Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 03:15:31 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's future

> From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
> 
> Did anybody but me notice the new TRAVELLER novel in your local bookstores? 
> Did Marc announce it was coming? If he did, I missed it.

No, I never heard anything about it at all, in fact, it's a complete
surprise.  How new is it?  A week?  Several weeks?  A month?  Strange,
nobody's mentioned it at _all_.

Strange timing though.  Paramount owned Pocket Books will be distributing
Last Unicorn's Star Trek RPG late this summer.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 02:55:02 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Traveller Book

On 04/04/98 at 03:15 AM,  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> said:

>> Did anybody but me notice the new TRAVELLER novel in your local
>>bookstores?   Did Marc announce it was coming? If he did, I missed it.

>No, I never heard anything about it at all, in fact, it's a complete
>surprise.  How new is it?  A week?  Several weeks?  A month?  Strange,
>nobody's mentioned it at _all_.

It had a 1998 date on it, and it wasn't on the shelf last week, so I'm
guessing *very* new. I didn't look real closely at Marc's "How to play
Traveller" chapter in the back, but from the skim it looked more like a
synopsis of T4.1 than T4. There was also an add for some Traveller books on
last page.  I'll have to go back tomorrow and buy it.

Walden Books, BTW.

>Strange timing though.  Paramount owned Pocket Books will be distributing
>Last Unicorn's Star Trek RPG late this summer.

I know. From what I've read the new ST-RPG is going to be sold in
bookstores more like a paperback novel than a traditional RPG. It'll be
"episode" based, and aimed at the ST, but non-RPG market.

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 22:31:58 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Foot/feet (was: GDW2/DGP2)

>Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 20:15:33 EST
>From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
>Subject: GDW2/DGP2

>Andres said:
>>Hmmm, the game is afoot.

>Maybe even afoot-and-ahalf...

>Loren Wiseman

Please oh please make it 45.7cm :*>

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge
****************************************************************************
"Avec vous votra limpet mine?"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 01:56:30 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Hand weapons shooting down ships (long)

warmind@juno.com (james a clem) wrote

> Don't laugh too hard, but a friend of mine has designed a man portable
> meson gun (MPMG?).  With a tunnel length of 1 meter, it gets a range of
> 1,000 km!!!  Of course, he's still trying to fit the power source and
> sensors into a suit of powered armor!!

I have also designed a handheld meson gun.  I posted it to the list
about 1 year ago & I now do so again

WARNING Severe Munchkinism Follows Read At Your Own Risk !

"This is the Delgado .44 Meson, the most powerfull handheld meson gun in
the Imperium.  You are probably saying to yourself are his homopolar
generators fully charged.  Do you feel lucky, punk, well do you ?"
  
The true Traveller munchkin (in Millieu 1100) will design a hand held
Meson weapon so as not to insure that their oponents do not try & take
advantage of that pesky thing called armor.  This may involve some
creative interpretation of the chapter on Meson Guns. I should point out
in my own defence that _NO_ minimum values are given in the meson gun
design table so it may be a legitimate design. (FFS 1 pg 116-120)

Using Fire Fusion & Steel 1 it is very easy to design a hand held Meson
gun FGMP style weapon for Battledress troups at TL 15.  The overall
dammage will be low but since it ignores armor it can be deadly.  It is 
also possible to generate a similar (but less effective) weapon at TL's
as low as 11.  Such a weapon will have a low rate of fire however.  This
design example quotes fairly heavily from the FF&S 1 design sequences,
which are copyright Marc Miller. 

If a gravtank bothers you you can just vaporize the driver or the
controls & the tank will probably crash.   For _true_ munchkinism you
need a psionic firer because if the firer is psionic you can pass off a
target location aquired with telepathy or clairvoyance & may be able to
hit the brain directly.

A fairly deadly weapon can be designed with approximately the following
parameters: 

TL 15 MGMP (Meson Gun Man Portable)

Step 1:  Involves chosing a Spinal, parallel, or Bay mount.  We will
ignore this step since our gun will be handheld.  We will select a
tunnel length at this ponit however.  We will pick 0.3 m.

Step 2:  Discharge Energy (DE)  0.04 megajoule

Step 3: Meson Tunnel Charecteristics

TL 14 Tunnel Charecteristics 
Length Multiplier       1.2
Volume Multiplier       0.01
Mass Multiplier         0.6

3a: Effective Tunnel Length (0.3 m * 1.2) = 0.36 m

3b: Tunnel Volume (cubic meters)= actual length (m) * discharge energy
(megajoules) * volume multiplier
0.3 * 0.04 * 0.01 = 0.00012 cubic meter (120 cc's)

3c: Tunnel Cross-Sectional Area
Cross-sectional area in square meteres is equal to the tunnel volume
divided by the actual tunnel length.
0.00048/0.3 = 0.0004 square meter (4 square centimeters) This  means our
meson gun has a gun is approximate diamter of 1.128 (about .44 caliber)

3d: Tunnel Mass
Tunnel Mass (tonnes) = tunnel volume (cubic meters) * mass multiplier
0.00012 * 0.6 = 0.00007 tonnes (0.07 kg) 

3e: Tunnel Price (MCr)
tunnel volume (cubic meters) * 0.1 at all Tl's
0.00012 * 0.1 = 0.000012 MegaCredits (12 credits)

4: Performance
Effective range in km = effective tunnel length x 1000
0.36 * 1000 = 360 km  

5: Define Short Range
 This is where you select a beam pointer for your meson gun. The rules
state that all meson guns require a beam pointer.  if you wish to design
an effective hand held meson gun below Tl 15 you will probably need to
_ignore_ this rule because the beam pointer will be so heavy as to make
the gun impractical. (Arguably no small arm should require a beam
pointer since it will be manually fired).  

We will select the lightest possible beam pointer the 0.3km beam
pointer.  At TL 15 this beam pointer will have the following stats:
Volume 0.01 cubic meter 
Mass 0.01 ton (10 kg)
Price (MCr) = volume * 0.1
0.01 * 0.1 = 0.001 MCr  (1000 credits)

If the weapon will be used by battle dress troups you may wish to use a
3 km beam pointer which will have twice the mass, volume, & cost.  If
this is a very high tech experimental secret weapon you may wish to use
a TL 17 beam pointer instead which will give  a 3km short range for the
same mass, volume and cost as our 0.3 km TL 15 beam pointer.

6: Combat Ratings

6a: Combat Range Bands

Short Range:    0.3 km / 300 meters
Medium Range:   0.6 km / 600 meters
Long Range:     1.2 km / 1200 meters
Extreme Range:  2.4 km / 2400 meters

(The maximum range at which a Meson gun will do dammage = 8,500 km *
effective tunnel length or 3,060 km for this design - since it will be
incapable of hitting anything at ranges greater than 2.4 km we will
ignore this range)

6b: Dammage Value
 
DV = 5 * I^0.5          I is the weapons Intensity

I = DE / (R/EL)^2       R is range in 1000's of
km                         round (R/EL)^2 to the nearest 0.5 with a
minimum of 1

0.1 / (0.0003/0.36)^2 =
0.1 / (0.000000694 which rounds up to 1)=
0.1 / 1 = 0.1 = I
DV = 5 * (0.04)^0.5 = 1

Our Meson gun does 1d6 of dammage _Ignoring Armor_

7: Power Requirements

7a: Input Energy        Meson guns have a 20% energy efficiency
InputEnergy (IE) = Discharge Energy / 0.2
0.04 / 0.2 = 0.32

7b: Homopolar Generator (It is tempting to relate this to the gays in
the Imperium thread) A meson gun requires a homopolar generator (HPG) to
store the energy required for each shot until that energy is ready to be
deployed as a single pulse.  Calculate this figure by muliplying the IE
by the value on the HPG table
 
Volume = 0.32 * 0.035 = 0.0112 cubic meter (11.2 cubic liters)
mass = vol * 2 (tons)
0.112 * 2 = 0.0224 tons (22.4 kg)
Price (MCr) = vol * 0.1 * 1.1 (modified for Explosive Power Generation)
0.112 * 0.01 * 1.1 = 0.001232 MCr (1,232 Cr)

7c: Rate of Fire        We will select the highest possible rate of fire
which is 100 shots per 30 minute space combat turn.  This translates to
a ground combat ROF of 1/4 (1 shot every 4 combat turns)

7d: Power Input
ROF * IE = Megajoules consumed per 5 second turn.  Divide this number by
5 to find the MW of power that must be allocated to operate the weapon.
0.25 * 0.32 / 5 = 0.016 MW of power required. We will generate the
required power with Explosive Power Generators 

TL 14 Pulse Fusion Cartridge (PFC) 0.016 MJ

Vol = output * 0.0002
0.0002 * 0.016 = 0.0000032 cubic meters (3.2 cubic centimeters)
Cost (MCr) = output * 0.000008
0.016 * 0.000008 = 0.000000128 MCr (0.128 credits)
Mass Vol * 4
0.0000032 * 4 = 0.0000128 tons (0.0128 kg)(12.8 grams)
Cartridge Dimensions:
Radius 5.54mm
Diameter 11.08mm
Length 33.24mm

8 Gun Crew:     0.0000012 crew (rounds up to 1) required
We are going to skip the gunners (normal) workstation required by the
rules at this point.  Instead we are going to finish the design of this
meson gun using the rules for designing High Energy Weapons.

This is the _first & only_ way this design breaks the rules.

9 Meson Gun Carriage, Mount, Etc:

We will not give this gun a carriage.  The rules for High Energy Weapons
state that man portable weapons do not require a cradle.  The mass &
price of a stock are subsumed in the basic cost of a firing unit. 

Recoil System Weight
0.04* 2 = 0.08 kg

Feed System 
1  50 round box magazine w/ auto loader
Empty Mass 0.4147 kg
Cost 5 Cr
Loaded Mass 1.0547 kg

Price (Credits)

Firing Unit             2000
Support Hardware        2000
Inertial Compensator    1000
 (The actual recoil of this weapon (1) does not require it to have an
inertial compensator. I am giving it one anyway to represent my
perception of the stability a meson gun firing solution requires)
Meson Tunnel            12
Beam Pointer            1000
HPG                     1232
50 Cartridges           7      (0.128 * 50 = 6.4 Cr)
Magazine                5
Gun Shield              1

Total  Loaded Cost Cr 7,257     Total Loaded Mass 33.60 kg
 
This design becomes much lighter at TL 16 & higher.  I suspect it might
be designable as a handgun by TL 20 or so. I realize that this wepon is
somewhat heavy for a man portable weapon,
but it would make a good squad level suport weapon.

In the campaign I played in where this weapon was introduced it was
described as TL 16 and given a cost (as an experimental secret weapon)
of about MCr 50 each.  It would probably be less imbalancing to a
campaign at this cost. 

Comment are welcommed.

- -- 
"My father warned me about men and booze, but he never mentioned a word
 about women and cocaine."   --   Talullah Bankhead

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:53:35 -0600 
From: "Goosby, Mark" <Mark.Goosby@msfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Automation IMTU

This is my first posting to the list so I'll try and be brief.

Automation is a great and glorious thing, provided you have a Zho programmer
who can predict every anomaly, even those not yet encountered.  The
universe, even that one *I* created, is so vast there is no way to account
for all eventualities.  That's where experienced humans, et al, make the
difference, in the "best guess scenario".

IRL, we here at NASA's Network Management center have some of the best tech
(and analysts) available.  But a simple thought process in a human can be so
convoluted that it seems that even an advanced AI could not reach the same
conclusion.  For instance,  we were having a bandwidth congestion problem at
one site.  It seems a virtual trunk was connecting on a two hop path and
ignoring a one hop path.  A no brainer for a human.  But the controlling
software was only looking at the bandwidth metric and the two hopper was a 4
Mbps vs. the 2 Mbps one hopper.  All right, I know that this is at our tech
level, but expound the tech level and you compound the risks.  Well, a quick
addition on the fly of a static route fixed the issue, but it was an "ole
Mark 1" human brain that solved the problem that the automaton couldn't or
more importantly, didn't even see.  When the programmer is omnipotent and
can foresee EVERY POSSIBLE SCENARIO, I'll trust me and mine to a wholly
automated system.  Until then, gimme a good old fallible human.  

More to come in the future from this CT player since 1979

John Mark Goosby (tm)
*	"There are two major products to come out of Berkley: LSD and UNIX.
I don't believe this is a coincidence"
*	Network Analyst - NASA PrISMS Contract
*	WANG Government Services
*	John.Goosby@msfc.nasa.gov
*	goose@nmc5.pscni.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 06:38:02 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Squadrons

>Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 18:07:12 -0800
>From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
>Subject: Imperial Squadrons
>
>I was in at my FLGS giving them the news about IG when I spotted a copy
>of Imperial Squadrons. Has anyone out there had a look at this yet and
>is it a worthwhile resource
>to pick up?
>
Imperial Squadrons is essentially a Do-it-yourself version of GDW's Fifth
Frontier War boardgame, with roleplaying tie-ins.  If you liked the
boardgame and want to see more, Imperial Squadrons is a good deal.

On the positive side, the rules allow you to create squadrons and armies
for your pocket empires and fight out entire wars at one week per turn.
This alone is worth the price to me, and the reason I bought the book.
There are tables for framing a wartime Naval campaign, that rotate your
players' squadron from front line duty to rest and refit to deep
penetration raids and so on.

On the negative side, the interface with Pocket Empires is somewhat shaky -
you have to convert Resource Units to MCr to figure up your budgets and
costs, and some of the conceptual linkage is hard to grasp (eg, why is a
low Culture score a detriment to squadron capabilities, when it has a
positive effect on Gross World Product?).  I'm also not sure I agree with
the duty descriptions is the chapters on life in the Navy, and so probably
won't use them.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 07:11:17 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS & Traveller

>Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 22:59:01 -0600
>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Subject: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller
>
>I've been boning up on GURPS for the same reason.  In the past, I've worked
>on ways to get Traveller and GURPS together, but have never followed all
>the way through with a game..much less campaign.  I honestly can't tell you
>why, GURPS worked well in a fantasy game and a Tw2k crossover I GM'ed
>*years* ago, and I played in a space game that worked too.
>
Was that Twilight 2000 1st or 2d ed?  If it was 2d ed, you already have a
Traveller conversion:  Tw2000 and TNE use the same system, then you can use
Survival Margin to reverse engineer to MT or CT.  At the risk of inciting a
new flame war, this is why I've said before TNE is a useful bridge system
between GURPS and Traveller, even if you don't like it as a system to play
or never intend to use the background.

>I've never been fond of totally point-purchase OR totally random character
>generation, but I do *like* the develop during a career method that is the
>soul (to steal an expression from the absent HH) of Traveller.
>
...
>Yes, it's much too easy to get bogged down.  That's why I have been asking
>about something called Career Templates over on the GURPS list. If I
>understand this concept right, they are the basic requirements for careers,
>*partially* created characters.  If someone whats to play a Starship Pilot
>with a Merchant background, they could take Templates for each and have 3/4
>of their character finished right there...the rest is the customization
>needed to make the character uniquely theirs.
>

Agreed.  This also harks back to the TNE careers mechanic:  instead of
tables of random skills, each 'career' is a template for four years of
experience in a given field.  The players choose a set number of skills
from lists associated with the career, while also accumulating advantages
(ship's DMs, contacts, initiative bonuses) of the appropriate types.  I
would love to see this mechanic translated to GURPS - it seems a good
middle ground between classic Traveller services and GURPS character
templates (as I understand them).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:35:04 -0700
From: "Suz Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: TravIRC (was: Chat Topic: Traveller Timeline)

> Are there still regular traveller chats going, and if so, who do I submit
> a topic proposal to...

Oh, my goodness!  What a week to pick to be too busy, tired and ill 
to not read TML :)

A loyal few still meet every Thursday evening at 7:30pm Central time. 
I haven't been posting topics, but we've been there.  You have no 
idea how happy I am to hear some suggestions. :)

> The first one would be on the Ancient Period, all events before
> -9235 Imperial (the Vilani discovery of the Jump Drive).
>
> If you are interested in participating, please e-mail me at
> 'dmckinne@itds.com' with recommendations for 'when' we should chat.
 
Please include me on your distribution list... if Thursday night is 
no longer the best night, I'd like to know.

Suz 

Suzette C. Dollar
#Traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 17:07:28 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: re: Hyperdrive

On  3 Apr 98, Walter G. Smith disseminated foul capitalist propaganda 
by writing:

[...]
> Just out of curiousity - how do you use a defensive "line"
> effectively in a 3-D environment? Why didn't the Impies go solar
> system north or south
>  and just go "over" or "under" Lensheerr's defense line?

Errr... Because the Empire is stupid? (c.v. "Star Wars")

(Besides, isn't going out of the ecliptic plane a bit energy and 
reaction mass expensive?)

> Walt Smith


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    If you have wet dreams, take your umbrella to bed with you. 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 07:20:44 -0800
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Squadrons

Thanks I guess I head back and pick it up.

Dave

Christopher Thrash wrote:

> <sniped>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 09:15:07 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's future

At 12:05 am 4/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
>David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>         I guess my wishlist really is a wishlist, because at the
top of it
>> is
>>
>>         GDW2 (Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank Chadwick ...)
>
>Well, if you're going to say that, I'd have to vote for DGP2, then.

	Can't argue too much with that, either. Maybe a GDW2-DGP2
collaboration ... assuming you mean the original DGP authors from MT,
not whoever owns DGP now.

	ahhh, dreams. While I'm at it, I might as well wish for a solid
gearhead design sequence covering everything in a "pseudo-realistic"
fashion, with a fully-integrated scaled down High Guard-style
sequence for simpler work, a combat system that's fast, fun, and
reasonably notes the differences between concussive, blast, and
penetrating damages, scales up from slingshots to planetwreckers, a
task system that handles the balance between skill and
characteristics effectively, a tight, solid background that is
self-consistent, a space combat system that scales all the way from
Brilliant Lances-type combat on one end to High Guard on the other,
and a tall, single, blonde to play with ... whooops, that's got
nothing to do with Traveller <G>.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #364
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, April 4 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 365



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Re: A Couple of Questions...
Re: Imperial Squadrons
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: In defense of T4
Re: The last time...
Re: CT and T?
Re: Traveller Book
Modular ship design
Re: Hyperdrive
Re: CT and T?
Re: Hyperdrive
MGs
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #352
Re: Traveller Book
re: YATTS: Heavy Gear

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 09:23:50 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: Re: A Couple of Questions...

At 01:40 pm 4/3/98 -0600, you wrote:
>> FarFuture Enterprises still exists. Imperium Games is the company
>> disappearing. FFE owns all the rights to Traveller - it's Marc Miller's
>> organisation/company.
>>
>> You should have tried Imperium Games not FFE.
>>
>> Dom
>
>My intent was to get materials for the game that I like to play, that's Traveller. I TRIED IG and then  FFE 
>after IG did not respond. I got no replies. I hope that Steve Jackson Games does 

	Although the *rights* to Traveller stay with FFE, the T4 *materials*
still belong to IG. It's up to them to respond to you. When GDW
folded, Marc, as part of GDW, got the chance to load up on leftover
products. However, Marc never was part of IG--they simply licensed
Traveller from him.

	And for what it's worth, Marc has responded fairly well to requests
for GDW material. I've gotten almost everything I still need. It may
be that he's just a wee bit busy, trying to sort out the failure of
IG, recovering all the rights he licensed, writing T4.1, and
negotiating for a new publisher.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 08:06:52 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Imperial Squadrons

At 06:07 PM 4/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I was in at my FLGS giving them the news about IG when I spotted a copy
>of Imperial Squadrons. Has anyone out there had a look at this yet and
>is it a worthwhile resource
>to pick up?

IG trashed my ship designs, so I'm still planning on posting them.  Sorry
it's taking so long, but dilantin is a bitch when you are trying to
concentrate for more than 15 seconds.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 08:30:24 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

At 09:48 AM 4/3/98 +0800, you wrote:
>At 17:25 2/04/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>Actually, to reiterate a commonly overlooked point, slug throwers, hell,
>>even my 1906-vintage Smith&Wesson work perfectly well in zero-gee or
>>vaccuum. gunpowder is a complete explosive, it has both oxidizer and
>>oxidant, and thus needs no oxygen.
>
>How does this give them an edge over Plasma weapons or Lasers?

For starters, my entire power supply is a few grams of gunpowder.  No need
for heavy batteries and the like.  A .25 cal pistol, weigh less than a
pound, can kill.

Lasers have the disadvantage that fog, smoke, rain, and even mildly
reflective surfaces disrupt and deflect the beam.  Most beams, will be
traceable to the firer's position, either by the beam itself, or flashes as
the beam destroys stray dust particles in the atmosphere.

Plasma/fusion weapons are great, except that hey tend to attract attention,
which is bad.  When I first joined the Army, I was a Dragon anti-tank
missile gunner.  Imagine what it's like to have an entire platoon of M-60A3
tanks trying to kill you.  That's life for a plasma equipped soldier.

Also, I wouldn't want to be holding a p/f gun went it went off.  Those
suckers will get hot!  The flash might even blind/dazzle the user.
Protective lenses would be the minimum.

For TL12/13, this is how I see the infantry being armed.

Light infantry/recon: Combat environment suit with stealth features, gauss
rifle w/4 spare clips.  possibly grav belt.   

Regular lift infantry: Combat envirosuit with additional armor over the
torso as part of a tactical vest. 7mm Advanced Combat Rifle with 6 spare
clips and several RAM grenades.  Support provided by a 9mm Advanced Squad
Automatic Weapon or a grenade launcher.  Extra ammo for the ASAW or GL
spread among the fire team.

Heavy infantry:  Combat armor, gauss rifle w/6 spare clips, RAM grenades.
Support weapon plasma gun or rocket launcher.

Augmented infantry: Battle dress.  Each trooper carries a support-level
weapon, either a gauss MG or plasma weapon.  

>I wonder if  cost ought to be a factor.  At high tech levels it would
>presumably be very cheap to manufacture slug throwers, Plasma weapons are
>presumably restricted as well as being expensive.  If, by comparison, slug
>throwers cost the same as water pistols today, then this might explain their
>survival.

Don't forget that as the TL rises so does quality.  The only difference
between a Glock and a M-1911 .45 is what they are made of and the
technology used to manufacture them.

>On another issue: what do you think of HEAP small arms ammo.  It seems daft
>to allow even 4mm Gaus weapons to fire effective HEAP rounds.  I cannot
>quite make the leap that technology would require.  From current practices
>it seems impossible.  Could a HEAP round that small (half a gram in weight?)
>really contain enough energy to penetrate and damge? I realise that they are
>allowed in FF&S1, but is the physics up to it?

Not under 3G3.  You are better of just making it a solid steel dart.
>
>Colin
>
>
>
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 08:09:58 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: In defense of T4

At 01:56 AM 4/4/98 -0600, eris wrote:

>You know, I've never run across a *perfect* game, and I never expect to.
>
>Most of us, me included, have taken our shots at the T4 system over the
>last 18 months, but I think there is much about the game that worked,
>worked very well. 

I think that the concepts behind T4 were great, it just fell apart in the
execution.  Poor editing and proofreading, no one checking canon, and
horrible layout all drove people away.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 13:21:07 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: The last time...

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> >What I found even more interesting than this, though, was the Type TI
> >  (or should I say TJ?) that blasted through the Capital traffic pattern
> >  in an awful big hurry.  Anyone care to speculate on its cargo?  My
> >  off-the-cuff guess, without doing the math on the travel time, is
> >  the Real Strephon hurrying back from his review of Longbow in time
> >  to speak at the Archduke's funeral...
Or maybe (my theory) it had one of the data crystals Dulinor had disseminated before the
deed aboard, which showed what he intended to do. Would explain some bits in Strephons
speech.
In that case, my respect for Strephon rises even further, in that he still honors
Dulinor as a wise, but rash, man capable of a lot of good. (unless he fucked up, which
he cannae do now!)
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 13:14:56 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:
> 
> >Did WotC buy Gamma World from TSR?  If they did, then this was the correct
> >way to do it.  If not, you should send the petition where it needs to be
> >sent...  TSR.
> 
> WOTC bought *TSR* so they own the rights to all TSR's products...
Sorry to correct you there, but theres  a bit more to corporate takeovers than that:
When BWM completes thedeal and takes over Rolls Royce, where will you order the new
Rolls? Not at BMW, although their dealers might now also feature RRs. But RR will
remain a seperate company, only that it is OWNED by BMW.
The same deal exists with TSR. They are still a seperate company, and although WOTC owns
them, they still do business as TSR. The rights still belong to TSR, who in turn belongs
to WOT. But if you want the Gamma Worlds CD, write to those who hold the rights
directly, and thats still TSR.
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 13:24:19 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller Book

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> >No, I never heard anything about it at all, in fact, it's a complete
> >surprise.  How new is it?  A week?  Several weeks?  A month?  Strange,
> >nobody's mentioned it at _all_.
> 
> It had a 1998 date on it, and it wasn't on the shelf last week, so I'm
> guessing *very* new. I didn't look real closely at Marc's "How to play
> Traveller" chapter in the back, but from the skim it looked more like a
> synopsis of T4.1 than T4. There was also an add for some Traveller books on
> last page.  I'll have to go back tomorrow and buy it.
> 
> Walden Books, BTW.
Please tell us about is... 

Whats it about, contentwise.
How does it look (size, cover painting)
Who published it.
What does it cost.
etc.
Inquiring minds from Europe need to know before ordering at Amazon (anyone know a
cheaper online bookstore, postagewise?)
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 11:51:08 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Modular ship design

I've been working on my 350 dT modular freighter and I've been tossing
around an idea.  Right now the design includes a 100 dT bay (usually for
modular cutter) and 8 sockets around the perimeter for 15 dT modular
cylinders. Its got a jump drive built in, but I might store the fuel in
the modular cylindars. I'm putting in a fusion reactor for power, but
I'm not sure about power.

Should I just design power modules, like a 15 dT "portable" reactor?
and just add on power modules as necessary? Or should I install the
reactor into the freighter itself? If I do design modular power plants,
I'm thinking that I should build staterooms into the module to
accomodate the added crew neccesary for for the plant.

Similarly, I've been working on modular armaments.  Perhaps a module
with a barbette, independant power plant, stateroom and storage.

However would it be better to just have a big honking plant in the
freighter and just hook up to it, or are the independent units better?

I'm looking for opinions pro and con...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:56:29 EST
From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Hyperdrive

In a message dated 98-04-04 10:05:38 EST, you write:

<< > Just out of curiousity - how do you use a defensive "line"
 > effectively in a 3-D environment? Why didn't the Impies go solar
 > system north or south
 >  and just go "over" or "under" Lensheerr's defense line?
 
 Errr... Because the Empire is stupid? (c.v. "Star Wars")
 
 (Besides, isn't going out of the ecliptic plane a bit energy and 
 reaction mass expensive?) >>

ok, you want to know why they didnt go "over" or "under" to bypass the Vulcan
Defense Ring. the answer is simple.  you do not leave a force "behind" you.
Remeber von Kluck's drive to Paris in 1914...  the Germans had won the war,
but von Kluck felt he had to beat the French army "in the feild" and veered
off to engage the retreating army and this action caused the Great War to turn
into a severe blood bath

tactical and strategic doctrone can be eiher your best freind or your greatest
enemy...   and in the Imps case, it was both.

we terrrans have shown how fantical we can be in defense of hte things we
love...  'divine wind' comes to mind while thinking of it right now... i know
i can see a fighter slaming into the bridge of an Imp capitalship (speaking of
star wars remeber the battle of endor and darth vader's flag ship?)

tactically and startegiclly comeing in on the horizonal plane equal to the
planets allows you to carry out your mission much easier, and ensures that you
will not miss or over shoot your target world(s)...  you might be in a 4d
enviroment, but you must remeber that Humans are better at fighting in a 3d
enviroment and keep in mind those same humans have the belief that you must
defeat the enemy in the field to win the war...  if not you get the "Stabbed
in the Back" myths that have been used by Hitler and Hussian...  

so the Imps felt that since they had the Terrans on the ropes the entire time
of the Rim War..  lets blast their feeble line...  just like von Kluck felt he
had the French on the ropes, but as we all know what that lead too..

richard

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 18:26:34 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

To add my thoughts to the fray...
 
I tend to buy Traveller books for content above all.  Artwork is secondary.
 
I tend to buy new RPGs based on reviews (in magazines or by friends) and I prefer good 
artwork that gives a suitable flavour to the game.
 
Assuming that I am representative (a brave assumption, but I've got to start somewhere:-), I 
see existing Traveller players as buying mostly on contents and new players buying based on 
recommendations and artwork that "sets the scene" for them.
 
I would bet that the large majority of sales go to existing players (i.e. of versions prior 
to T4), but that these are not enough to ensure the long term profitability of a Traveller 
publisher.
 
If I look at Scott's suggestions for "New Traveller" in the light of my supposition:
 
> Rules:
> 
> 1.  Basic rulebook, with enough to start playing immediately.
> 2.  Gearhead book, a la FF&S2
> 3.  Starship, vehicle, and equipment book
 
Many T4 buyers will complain that they have to buy the same stuff that they
bought only a few months ago, just for the sake of a few changes.  Some will
welcome the changes with open arms and some will complain if there are
omissions (i.e. no FFS3 is released), as they "need" information from an
out-of-print book.
 
With sales restricted to (mostly) new players, I think that rules will 
be difficult to make a profit on.
 
> Sources:
> 
> 1.  Local campaign book
> 2.  A service book, like "Navy life" or "Merchanting for fun"
> 3.  Support materials - like Traders and Gunboats
 
This sort of thing will sell well to the old hands, but will not attract new
players unless there is a (visually interesting) rule book for them buy.
 
Some sources will be seen as "gearhead" (Pocket Empires), or of low role-playing value 
(Imperial Squadrons), and will sell to a smaller audience.  These two happen to be my 
favourites from T4, but I have seen numerous criticism of them on the 
TML.
 
<------ a break to catch my thoughts ------->
 
So, where does this leave Marc, potential publishers of "New Traveller" 
and Traveller fans?
 
The failure of IG strongly indicates that T4 did not sell well enough to be self-sustaining. 
This must surely discourage any publisher hoping to make money (all of them!).  There may 
have been product-quality related reasons for IG's demise, but any new publisher would need 
to be very sure that quality was the main (only?) reason for failure.
 
If the fan base is not big enough for a re-launch, then we may as well consign ourselves to 
a few wilderness years, as in the past with the gaps between versions of Traveller.  This 
gives time for most places to run out of stock and to lets the hunger gnaw at the hearts of 
Traveller fans (along with anger, biterness and frustration).  This, while my view of the 
"most likely scenario", is not a very pleasant prospect.  So, let us look at how less likely 
scenarios might be made to work.
 
Quality and consistency
=======================
T4: Weapons, vehicles and starships from various supplements are often inconsistent with 
(later) published design sequences.  Simple design sequences are inconsistent with detailed 
design sequences.
 
New Traveller: design system developed first and used "in house" by authors to ensure 
consistency in all paper publications.  The few gearhead fans who want the design system 
will be able to get it electronically from sites such as Hyperbooks.com.  If New Traveller 
grows, the design rules may be published in paper form.
 
Problems: with few sales of FFS:NT, who pays for the development of the design system?  Will 
spreadsheets (like the 3G^3 spreadsheet from Greg porter) be part of the design sequence, 
and who will write these spreadsheets?  If they are written by fans will they ever be seen 
as "official"?
 
Market Appeal
=============
T4: few people found the cover art "stood out" on the crowded RPG shelves.  The game sold 
only through specialist games shops.
 
New Traveller: both a role-playing game and a computer game.  A game like MegaTraveller 2 
with better graphics and X-Com-style isometric persepective for characters on a planet or 
ship is unlikely to be a block-buster, but could accurately reflect the NT universe and 
attract new players.  A Pocket Empires / Imperial Squadron game would have similarities to 
other resource games like Civilisation, Wing Commander Armarda and numerous SSI titles.
 
Problems: Making sure the game "fits" the Traveller universe.  Finding a company who wants 
to write the game, in this era of "3-CDs and $1 million is minimum" for the graphics-rich 
action games that dominate the market.  Most (all) of the games will be PC-only (probaly 
Win95-only), leaving those faithful Traveller fans with Macs to carry 
on with infini-V and 
Metator (no disparagement of these fine programs is intended).
 
 
<------ a break to catch my thoughts ------->
 
Thinking about the X-com series (UFO, Terror from the Deep and Apocalypse) some more makes 
me think that this style of game could be ideal for a Traveller computer game.  I'll call it 
"Traveller:Trader" (T:T) for the moment.
 
The resource-side of things is reflected in the trading on each world, and buying equipment 
where it is avaliable (much like in MT 2).
 
The "action" side is provided be isometric views of numerous sites - including ships.  Your 
crew (equivalent to x-com agents) can be exploring derelict ships that have been subjected 
to attack by the "great threat", exploring houses/mines/factories where agents of the "great 
threat" may be lurking, breaking into Chamax-filled power stations to recharge your 
laser packs, talking to people (as in the Ultima series of games) defending their ship from 
hi-jack or boarding action by the "great threat" and so on.
 
The on-going use in role-playing is via the expansion packs:
(1) the scenario editor - design your own maps, or use existing ones, 
and populate them with 
baddies, clues, people to talk to (rumours), macguffins, or whatever. 
(2) the sector mapper - lets you use relatively simple sector map descriptions (in ASCII 
format, like the ones we have at the moment in Galactic), so the players can adventure where 
they want, print out sub-sector maps for hand-outs.  The program will convert the sectors 
into data files suitable for use in T:T
(3) the ship designer so that the players can use a different (pre-designed) ship or design 
their own (NAM meets QSDS), print out floor plans and so on.
 
If you really want to get clever, you can set up a "plot" to link the various sites by using 
REFORM (the adventure scripting system that was used by most of the Infocom games and is now 
available as a public domain compiler).  If the initial game uses REFORM (or a suitably 
modified version thereof) to adjudicate the "behind the graphics" plotline, then it will be 
possible for entire campaigns to be set up.  Few people will have the desire and knowledge 
to do this, but it happened for DOOM, so could happen for Traveller.
 
When this thing really takes off, we can have Traveller on-line, Traveller:Mercenary 
(command and conquer in a Traveller universe), Traveller:High Guard (the Imperial 
Squadrons/Pocket Empires game), Traveller:Merchant Prince (trade in a sector wracked by a 
Tukera/Oberlindes trade war), Traveller:Merchant Prince 2 (a remake of Leviathan, CT 
advendure 4), Horde (a scenario pack for T:M or T:T, "role play it in T:T or take on the 
role of the army in T:M).
 
<------ a break to catch my thoughts ------->
 
It's OK now.  I've calmed down.
 
Still, it was nice to dream :-)
 
 
Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 12:36:40 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hyperdrive

RSpake2064 wrote:

> In a message dated 98-04-04 10:05:38 EST, you write:
>
> << > Just out of curiousity - how do you use a defensive "line"
>  > effectively in a 3-D environment? Why didn't the Impies go solar
>  > system north or south
>  >  and just go "over" or "under" Lensheerr's defense line?
>
>  Errr... Because the Empire is stupid? (c.v. "Star Wars")
>
>  (Besides, isn't going out of the ecliptic plane a bit energy and
>  reaction mass expensive?) >>
>

Assuming they went in a semicircular arc, that's an additional 50% or so, as
opposed to a straight line (through an asteroid belt!?).  Comparing that to the
potential destruction of ships, I'd say its worthwhile.

> ok, you want to know why they didnt go "over" or "under" to bypass the Vulcan
> Defense Ring. the answer is simple.  you do not leave a force "behind" you.

Umm... they'd be to your side, not behind you.

> Remeber von Kluck's drive to Paris in 1914...  the Germans had won the war,
> but von Kluck felt he had to beat the French army "in the feild" and veered
> off to engage the retreating army and this action caused the Great War to turn
> into a severe blood bath
>

I think this is a bad analogy.  Its closer to indirect fire over the enemy lines
into the heart of the enemy.  They made good use of this as "Time on target" where
various artillery forces would fire timed so that all rounds impact as the same
time.  Very demoralizing to the Germans.

> tactical and strategic doctrone can be eiher your best freind or your greatest
> enemy...   and in the Imps case, it was both.
>

I think true space combat just hasn't been explored enough in our time to be able
to extrapolate a doctrine.

> we terrrans have shown how fantical we can be in defense of hte things we
> love...  'divine wind' comes to mind while thinking of it right now... i know
> i can see a fighter slaming into the bridge of an Imp capitalship (speaking of
> star wars remeber the battle of endor and darth vader's flag ship?)

True but the discussion was avoiding the picket not confronting them.

>
>
> tactically and startegiclly comeing in on the horizonal plane equal to the
> planets allows you to carry out your mission much easier, and ensures that you
> will not miss or over shoot your target world(s)...

It does no such thing.  You can screw up your course REAL bad even on the plane of
the ecliptic.  Coming in perpendicular limits the effects of planetary bodies on
your course.  It also puts you closer to your goal since they don't yank you out
of jump space.

> you might be in a 4d
> enviroment, but you must remeber that Humans are better at fighting in a 3d
> enviroment and keep in mind those same humans have the belief that you must
> defeat the enemy in the field to win the war...  if not you get the "Stabbed
> in the Back" myths that have been used by Hitler and Hussian...
>

You mean 3d and 2d don't you? What you can do is lob forces over the line at the
target planet.  Then your main forces converge through the asteroid belt.  Now the
asteroid forces are confronted on two sides.  They can defend the planet by going
after the advance force, but then they turn their back on the main body.  If they
don't go after the advance force, they have their supply lines cut.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 12:49:17 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: MGs

> The rules state that all meson guns require a beam pointer.  if you wish to 
>  design an effective hand held meson gun below Tl 15 you will probably need
>  to _ignore_ this rule because the beam pointer will be so heavy as to make
>  the gun impractical. 

Maybe its just me, but _I_ would take this rule as a sign that the designers
didn't _intend_ for people to be able to design hand-held meson guns below TL
15...

Then again, rules always seem to get in the way of some peoples' fun. 

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:07:01 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #352

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #352


>>Cleon was not McArthur, he was Bill Gates.
>
>This isnt reflected in the background. In fact, I would argue that Cleon is
>far more McArthur ... militarily, Macarthur was in the bottom tier of US
>generals, but his genius was reorginising Japan after conquest into a
>viable and friendly society.


I'm afraid I would have to differ with you on MaCarthur's military standing.
He lost fewer people (all services, all countries) in the Pacific campaign
than was lost at D-Day alone in Europe.  Sounds pretty smart to me.  He also
sorted out a little skirmish in a country called Korea that has had the
heads of quite a number of Generals world wide nodding in approval and with
some small amount of awe.  Maybe you've heard of the Pusan landings.  As a
soldier I believe I would have rather served under Mac than Patton and (God
forgive me) Monty.  I honestly can't think of one WWI general I would have
liked to serve under, they all used some type of "Human Wave" tactics.  Just
the thought of this scares me to death.


>This was Cleon's genius - he set up a structure where worlds could be not
>just conquered, but absorbed.
>
>Ian Whitchurch

I agree with this statement for both men wholeheartedly.


Thom Harris (not a historian, just a reader and a retired soldier)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:22:19 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Book

> From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
> 
> It had a 1998 date on it, and it wasn't on the shelf last week, so I'm
> guessing *very* new. I didn't look real closely at Marc's "How to play
> Traveller" chapter in the back, but from the skim it looked more like a
> synopsis of T4.1 than T4. There was also an add for some Traveller books on
> last page.  I'll have to go back tomorrow and buy it.

I'll have to check out my local store and see if they have it as well.

> Walden Books, BTW.

Thanks.

> I know. From what I've read the new ST-RPG is going to be sold in
> bookstores more like a paperback novel than a traditional RPG. It'll be
> "episode" based, and aimed at the ST, but non-RPG market.

Pretty much it, although there will be hardbacks released for all the
series (ST:TNG comes first, followed by the other series books) and each
individual "major" race will be supported with a box set.

Does Pocket Books put out much in the way of other RPGs books and book
series?

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:05:19 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: YATTS: Heavy Gear

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:

>But with Ken back it's a *must* do function! ;->

Okay, let slip the dogs of war...

>Speaking of new publications, has anybody else seen _TRAVELLER: Gateway to
>the Stars_, a new novel from Pocket Books?  I saw it tonight, didn't buy
>it, but it contains a 10-15 page T4 brief by Marc Miller in the back.

Please Uncle Eris the Heretic, please can you post the ISBN/author if you
get a chance to look at it again...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #365
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, April 4 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 366



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Imperial Squadrons
Re: CT and T?
3D Star Map
Re: Automation IMTU
Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller
Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals
What exactly *is* a beam pointer?
Re: MGs
Re: Interstellar Trade
Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?
Re: GURPS & Traveller
Re: Hand weapons shooting down ships (long)
Traveller Novel???
Viliani emperors?
Re: Traveller Book
Re: In defense of T4
Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller
Re: Traveller Book
Re: Traveller Novel???
RFC: Freelance Traveller - Traveller FAQ

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 12:53:06 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Imperial Squadrons

Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:

>I was in at my FLGS giving them the news about IG when I spotted a copy
>of Imperial Squadrons. Has anyone out there had a look at this yet and
>is it a worthwhile resource
>to pick up?


It has a version of the old FFW rules linked to the Pocket Empires rules
(but the scenarios given are flawed and need a change to the allow SDBs to
be exchanged for other squadrons), rules for playing in the Navy, notes on
legal stuff, some ship designs and a big scenario and some npcs. I would
say it is worthwhile. There is also a version of Trillion Credit Squadron,
but this is a bit useless without a combat system - however, T4.1 will
probably provide that and be backwardly usable with T4.

I bought it...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:09:15 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:

>WotC owns the rights to TSR's
>products, because it owns TSR, but, to repeat myself WotC is *not* TSR and
>TSR is *not* WotC.

But over time this difference will most likely become increasingly
insignificant, especially if WotC want to integrate TSR.


Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 12:44:57 -0800
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: 3D Star Map

Hey, gang, the 3d Star Map that James A. Clem posted
about on April 1st really is pretty slick. Do
yourselves a favor and download it. It's under
one Meg, runs in a DOS window, and has some
*very* nice special effects. It can be found at:

http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/road/xpa18/

You'll need to read the ReadMe .txt files that
comes with it to use it properly but it's fun
to poke around.

- -- 
Sir Daven Hevelin, Order of Sylea
Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
CEO - Security Merchants, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:34:54 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Automation IMTU

> From: Goosby, Mark <Mark.Goosby@msfc.nasa.gov>
> 
> This is my first posting to the list so I'll try and be brief.
> 
> Automation is a great and glorious thing, provided you have a Zho programmer
> who can predict every anomaly, even those not yet encountered.  The
> universe, even that one *I* created, is so vast there is no way to account
> for all eventualities.  That's where experienced humans, et al, make the
> difference, in the "best guess scenario".

I think alot of this boils down to time and tech level.  For example, we've
made great leaps in technology in only 40 or 50 years.  Now, there's only
been 40 or 50 years to get a handle on all this stuff, and not alot of time
for things to stabilize.  On the other hand, when you get into the
Traveller universe, technological advancement has stagnated.   Whoops, I
meant to say stabilized.  Either way, you've got thousands of years to work
the bugs out.  As far as software and low level automation goes, I don't
think that there'll be many programs out there that are the product of one
programmer.  They will grow with time and be worked on by many programmers,
be run through millions of detailed tests and simulations...

> IRL, we here at NASA's Network Management center have some of the best tech
> (and analysts) available.  But a simple thought process in a human can be so
> convoluted that it seems that even an advanced AI could not reach the same
> conclusion.  For instance,  we were having a bandwidth congestion problem at
> one site.  It seems a virtual trunk was connecting on a two hop path and
> ignoring a one hop path.  A no brainer for a human.  But the controlling
> software was only looking at the bandwidth metric and the two hopper was a 4
> Mbps vs. the 2 Mbps one hopper.  All right, I know that this is at our tech
> level, but expound the tech level and you compound the risks.  Well, a quick
> addition on the fly of a static route fixed the issue, but it was an "ole
> Mark 1" human brain that solved the problem that the automaton couldn't or
> more importantly, didn't even see.  When the programmer is omnipotent and
> can foresee EVERY POSSIBLE SCENARIO, I'll trust me and mine to a wholly
> automated system.  Until then, gimme a good old fallible human.  

First off, I think the system that you explain is quite a bit away from an
"advanced AI".  Secondly, how long has this software you are talking about
been in use?  A year, five years, ten years, 20? 30? 40? 50+?  Now, just
imagine that same software 2,000 years in the future, or 4,000 years in the
future.  Or a Vilani equivilant that has been in use for even longer...

> More to come in the future from this CT player since 1979

Looking forward to it.  Welcome aboard :^)

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:52:44 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller

Fri, 03 Apr 98 22:59:01 -0600, eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
\>I've been boning up on GURPS for the same reason.  In the past, I've worked
>on ways to get Traveller and GURPS together, but have never followed all
>the way through with a game..much less campaign.  I honestly can't tell you
>why, GURPS worked well in a fantasy game and a Tw2k crossover I GM'ed
>*years* ago, and I played in a space game that worked too.

I've had nothing but good success with my ongoing GURPS Traveller
campaign.  Could it be something to do with somethings else in
how it was set up rather than mechanics?  (sometimes choices
can be harder in a generic system because it provides a lot
fewer restrictions on what you can do, though buy GURPS Traveller
when it comes out, written as it is by a Traveller "founder"
should eliminate this problem).

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 14:06:02 EST
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: (Not So) Clever Criminals

When I lived on Long Island, the bank I worked at was robbed. The knucklehead
(one of four), put diepacks in both front thigh pockets. He was badly burned
on his thighs. Of course the down side to these idiots, was as this was their
first bank robbery, I was MUCH more afraid of getting hurt than if they were
career bank robbers.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 14:34:03 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?

On 04/04/98 at 01:56 AM,  Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> said:

>This is where you select a beam pointer for your meson gun. The rules
>state that all meson guns require a beam pointer.  if you wish to design
>an effective hand held meson gun below Tl 15 you will probably need to
>_ignore_ this rule because the beam pointer will be so heavy as to make
>the gun impractical. (Arguably no small arm should require a beam pointer
>since it will be manually fired).  

I've meant to ask this for years...just what exactly *is* a beam pointer? I
know what it does, and that is the "integral fire control capabilities...",
but just exactly what is it?   A fire-control computer?  A range finder? A
sight? 

Is the beam pointer, meant to be the in-play sensor mechianism that does
the actual "target lock" that allows a weapon to hit something?

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 14:40:27 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: MGs

On 04/04/98 at 12:49 PM,  GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com> said:

>> The rules state that all meson guns require a beam pointer.  if you wish to 
>>  design an effective hand held meson gun below Tl 15 you will probably need
>>  to _ignore_ this rule because the beam pointer will be so heavy as to make
>>  the gun impractical. 

>Maybe its just me, but _I_ would take this rule as a sign that the
>designers didn't _intend_ for people to be able to design hand-held meson
>guns below TL 15...

Um, Loren...

"All heavy (non-small arms) lasers, particle accelerators, and meson guns
require beam pointers...", p89 FFS.

My interpretation of that sentence is that small arm (ie, hand held) laser,
PAW, and Meson gun's do NOT require a beam pointer.  OTOH, I don't know if
I like the idea of paw or meson pistols.

>Then again, rules always seem to get in the way of some peoples' fun. 

Yeah, that's true too. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 16:06:59 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Interstellar Trade


>
>>Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 16:08:40 -0800
>>From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>>Subject: Re: T4 storyline
>>
>>At 09:33 PM 4/3/98 +0000, trisen wrote:
>>As long as I am goring sacred cows, I might as well weigh in.
>>Now, if your desired parts are 9 parsecs away, then you will start seeing
>>three month turnaround times, assuming very efficient shippers, and that
is
>>assuming that it is even worth paying the rather large shipment costs.  It
>>is more likely to be worth finding a source for Widgets that is closer
than
>>that.  At what point, for instance, is it worth pay8ng a premium to get
>>them just a month after the order, rather than six?
>
>You are doing point-to-point shipping, so you should get a 10 day
>turnaround (no week in port twiddling thumbs while the purser and captain
>look for a cargo). Call it 30 days, 35 days tops to go 9 parsecs with a
>jump-3 ship.
>
>
>Ian Whitchurch

Hmmmm,  the first thing that comes to my mind is that most often items are
bought through distributors and they would be the ones getting items from
the jump-9 to their warehouses.  In the case of a large distributor, s/he
would have warehouses on a number of planets and they would stock items that
the dBase tells them are being sold in a say jump-2 environment.  There just
aren't very many retailers that buy direct from the "Original Equipment
Manufacturers" (OEM) even today.  Now that we have the distributors in the
loop we have to back up one minor step and take a look at our dBase again.
Almost all retailers use these to forecast sales and "automatically" place
their orders.  Of course it is a hell of lot more involved than this but for
simplicity sake I think you get my point.  If you didn't, then generally you
would not be out of stock of items for more than a couple of days if your
software is working properly.  It would take a catastrophic failure to
incapacitate trading systems that are at a TL9+ at a number of locations at
the same time to take down the whole system.  I would think that a single
link would be replaced almost immediately.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 14:12:48 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?

On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Eris Reddoch wrote:
 
> I've meant to ask this for years...just what exactly *is* a beam pointer? I
> know what it does, and that is the "integral fire control capabilities...",
> but just exactly what is it?   A fire-control computer?  A range finder? A
> sight? 
> 
> Is the beam pointer, meant to be the in-play sensor mechianism that does
> the actual "target lock" that allows a weapon to hit something?

Yes, a beam pointer is essentially a laser rangefinder...remember, Meson
guns need the exact distance to target to time the meson decay just right.

Now, for things like deep meson sites, the fire solution is handed off
from the surface or orbital sensor sites. A hand held Meson gun will
definitely need a beam pointer, but you could probably use the rules for
small-arms electronics rangefinders to create one.

Kentucky windage just won't work with a weapons system like this.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 15:17:50 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: GURPS & Traveller

On 04/04/98 at 07:11 AM,  Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> said:

>>GURPS worked well in a fantasy game and a Tw2k crossover I GM'ed
>>*years* ago, and I played in a space game that worked too.

>Was that Twilight 2000 1st or 2d ed?  

First, when I bought the second I used it to run a couple of short lived
campaigns.

>If it was 2d ed, you already have a Traveller conversion:  Tw2000 and TNE use >the same system, 

Well, *almost* the same system. ;->  

>At the risk of inciting a new flame war, this is why I've said before TNE is a >useful bridge system between GURPS and Traveller, even if you don't like it as a
>system to play or never intend to use the background.

Heaven forbid, we start another flame war over the relative merits of TNE!
Personally, I liked the GDW house system, yes I tweaked it like everything
else, but I liked it...sort of reminded me of GURPS to tell you the truth.
I did not like the background, but I've never berated those that did,
because I'm always going to use my own background anyway.

>>I've never been fond of totally point-purchase OR totally random character
>>generation, but I do *like* the develop during a career method that is the
>>soul (to steal an expression from the absent HH) of Traveller.

<snip>

>>Yes, it's much too easy to get bogged down.  That's why I have been asking
>>about something called Career Templates over on the GURPS list. If I
>>understand this concept right, they are the basic requirements for careers,
>>*partially* created characters.  If someone whats to play a Starship Pilot
>>with a Merchant background, they could take Templates for each and have 3/4
>>of their character finished right there...the rest is the customization
>>needed to make the character uniquely theirs.

>Agreed.  This also harks back to the TNE careers mechanic:  instead of
>tables of random skills, each 'career' is a template for four years of
>experience in a given field.  The players choose a set number of skills
>from lists associated with the career, while also accumulating advantages
>(ship's DMs, contacts, initiative bonuses) of the appropriate types.  I
>would love to see this mechanic translated to GURPS - it seems a good
>middle ground between classic Traveller services and GURPS character
>templates (as I understand them).

Loren, do you hear that?  I'm with Christopher here, templates similar to
the TNE careers would/could/(I'd say)should go into GURPS Traveller.
Please, include, at least, the most common careers, and give some direction
for how to build others. 

I'd argue for the following sort of Template (at minimum):
 1. A Career package with minimum requirements for Stats/Ads/Disads/Skills.
 2. A list of optional Stats/Ads/Disads/Skills that fit into that career.
 3. A requirement that X points be spent in the optional list.

I'd *rather* have something almost exactly like TNE's, but I'm a stumped by
how to do it with GURPS.

Now, *I'm*, personally, going to want some randomness in chargen, but
Marc's T4.1 draft (and all the other versions) can give me that. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 98 20:31 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Hand weapons shooting down ships (long)

Moin Peter Newman,

> TL 15 MGMP (Meson Gun Man Portable)
> Total  Loaded Cost Cr 7,257     Total Loaded Mass 33.60 kg

> Comment are welcommed.

	its a bit wimpy. The Rurevayn shock troops have a "man portable"
	light meson gun, for use by thruster pack meteor paratroopers.
	The design is TL:13, the tunnel is 360cm, and most of the mass is
	the HPG for 36Mj bursts, producing 30 points of vehicle damage.
	Its a platoon support weapon, and normally crewed by two people.
	It has its own fuel cell that also powers an antigraph lifter to
	move it more quickly and to allow orbital entry of the floating
	disk and the troopers.  The term "man portable" is of course
	missleading, as this gun is designed to transport up to six
	battle troopers and four 53cm KKMs from orbit to ground.  As it
	can be controled remote from the battle dress, its even posible
	to wait in orbit, and let the disk do its nasty work.

	The complete disk and the battle dresses are of course using
	best stealth TL:13 has to offer. The production started in 1157
	at Imaparlu. As a shock weapon system its not infected, but
	relies on human agression for control. The meteor paratroopers
	are seldom used, as this tactic can only work with supprise
	conditions.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:41:20 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Traveller Novel???

>Speaking of new publications, has anybody else seen _TRAVELLER: Gateway to
>the Stars_, a new novel from Pocket Books?  I saw it tonight, didn't buy
>it, but it contains a 10-15 page T4 brief by Marc Miller in the back.

Who's the author of this book?  What's the ISBN?

Many Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:44:44
From: 2drapers <2drapers@infowest.com>
Subject: Viliani emperors?

I have been working on a campaign set in the Marches during first two
frontier wars and the civil war.  In trying to flesh out some details about
the era's politics, I noticed two barracks emperors with what sounded to me
like Viliani given names:  Emdiri (reigned 618-9) and Usuti (619-20).  Does
anybody know for sure if the names are Viliani, Swahili, Swedish or
something else?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 15:38:38 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller Book

On 04/04/98 at 01:22 PM,  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> said:

>Does Pocket Books put out much in the way of other RPGs books and book
>series?

The ST series is the first I've heard of *any* major book publisher doing.
IIRC the deal caused a stir when it was announced, because it was
considered something of a breakthrough for the industry.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 15:28:40 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: In defense of T4

On 04/04/98 at 08:09 AM,  dberry@hooked.net said:

>>You know, I've never run across a *perfect* game, and I never expect to.

>>Most of us, me included, have taken our shots at the T4 system over the
>>last 18 months, but I think there is much about the game that worked,
>>worked very well. 

>I think that the concepts behind T4 were great, it just fell apart in the
>execution.  Poor editing and proofreading, no one checking canon, and
>horrible layout all drove people away.

Thanks for putting my thoughts into a more concise form.

If Marc can recover the rights to the various T4 books (or whoever he
licences can), the inclusion of the T4.1 differences, a revised layout, and
a good editing and proofreading job, and they would have the core of
Traveller ready to hit the market. I don't know how the original authors
would feel about it, and I don't know if a new licence could get the rights
to the IG produced work, but heaven help us if they can't.  We'd be back to
ground zero building up the books needed in the line.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 15:45:43 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller

On 04/04/98 at 10:52 AM,  "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> said:

>Fri, 03 Apr 98 22:59:01 -0600, eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>\>I've been boning up on GURPS for the same reason.  In the past, I've
>worked >on ways to get Traveller and GURPS together, but have never
>followed all >the way through with a game..much less campaign.  I honestly
>can't tell you >why, GURPS worked well in a fantasy game and a Tw2k
>crossover I GM'ed >*years* ago, and I played in a space game that worked
>too.

>I've had nothing but good success with my ongoing GURPS Traveller
>campaign.  Could it be something to do with somethings else in how it was
>set up rather than mechanics?  (sometimes choices can be harder in a
>generic system because it provides a lot fewer restrictions on what you
>can do, though buy GURPS Traveller when it comes out, written as it is by
>a Traveller "founder" should eliminate this problem).

Could be, like I said, I just can't put my finger on why.

I *like* semi-random chargen, I don't like giving characters benefits  for
taking Disadvantages, and taken together you can see I don't believe in
"balanced characters", not as balanced as GURPS does it anyway. I guess
this makes it hard to get started.  What I've never tried is to generate
the characters in some version of Traveller and then convert them that
would probably help. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 15:32:32 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller Book

On 04/04/98 at 01:24 PM,  "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
said:

>I'll have to go back tomorrow and buy it.
 
>> Walden Books, BTW.

>Please tell us about is... 

Gee! Give me a chance to go back to the store and buy it! ;->

>What s it about, contentwise.

Looked like an adventure in the M0 setting.

>How does it look (size, cover painting)

Regular paperback book, average thickness, cover had the MMT logo and a
Fossian picture.

>Who published it.

Pocket Books.

>What does it cost.

??, but probably $5.95, isn't that a fairly normal price for a paperback
these days.

>Inquiring minds from Europe need to know before ordering at Amazon (anyone
>know a cheaper online bookstore, postagewise?)

I don't, Amazon is the best I know...for US delivery.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 17:06:50 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Novel???

John R. Snead wrote:

> >Speaking of new publications, has anybody else seen _TRAVELLER: Gateway to
> >the Stars_, a new novel from Pocket Books?  I saw it tonight, didn't buy
> >it, but it contains a 10-15 page T4 brief by Marc Miller in the back.
>
> Who's the author of this book?  What's the ISBN?
>
> Many Thanks-
>
> -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

Check it out at -
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ats-query/001-6616988-7551505

US$5.99
Mass Market Paperback, 320 pages
Published by Byron Press Multimedia Books
Publication date: May 1998
ISBN: 067101188X


Synopsis:
The first novel based on the top-selling sf role-playing game. Navis Redling is
resuming his career as an independent shipper and courier after a year in
detox.
Except, it really isn't Navis Redling, but rather a fugitive who has bought
Redling's identity--including plastic surgery, implanted memories, and
Redling's ship. When
this mysterious impostor runs into Redling's old enemies, he finds out why this
troublesome identity was available in the first place. He's in for far more
than a simple
trip through Redling's old stomping grounds.


Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 23:06:09 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: RFC: Freelance Traveller - Traveller FAQ

Jeff is trying to be a busy little beaver, and update Freelance
Traveller.  This includes updating the FAQ - but _that_ is one
job that is best shared with Those Of Us Who Have Stuck By
Traveller.  I am therefore posting for comment and correction the
proposed revised Traveller FAQ.  The following conventions are
used:

Text to be deleted appears in angle brackets <>.  Text to be
added appears in squiggly brackets {}.  Since a change is a
deletion and an insertion, that's how they'll be shown.  For
changes, the deletion appears immediately before the insertion.


=== FAQ Begins Here ===

General Information

What is a FAQ?

FAQ is short for "Frequently Asked Questions". Thus, a FAQ is a
list of questions that are often asked about a particular
subject, along with answers to those questions, or information
leading to the answers.

What is the purpose of this FAQ?

The Traveller FAQ has been created in order to provide a single
source of answers for questions regarding the Traveller product
lines from <Imperium Games and> licensed companies. This
includes, to the best of our ability, product release schedules,
general information about the companies that produce Traveller,
and rules clarifications - plus anything else we feel is useful,
or which our readers request often enough.

How accurate is this FAQ?

It's as accurate as we can make it, bearing in mind that human
beings are involved at every step of the process. Sometimes there
are miscommunications or misunderstandings that result in
inaccurate information here. Other times, information in this FAQ
may change (product release dates, for example) before we have a
chance to get the information and update this FAQ. We will make
an effort to keep the information in this FAQ as up-to-date as
possible, but mistakes do happen. We hope you'll understand this,
and be forgiving of our fully-volunteer staff.

Where can I find the latest copy of this FAQ?

Right here, we hope. The staff of Freelance Traveller fully
intends to try to keep this FAQ as up-to-date as possible.

Who or what <is>{was} Imperium Games?

Imperium Games, Inc., <is>{was} the primary licensee for
Traveller {from 1996 to 1998}. They publish{ed}, market{ed}, and
distribute{d} the main products of the Traveller product line.
The company is owned by Courtney Solomon and is located in
Beverly Hills, California, USA. Imperium Games contract<s>{ed}
with various designers (for example, the CORE group, Tim Brown,
and Greg Porter) who actually wr<i>{o}te the Traveller material.

Who is Marc Miller?

Marc Miller is the man who originally invented the Traveller game
system, over 20 years ago. He also holds the trademark on the
Traveller name, and all rights to the Traveller material
published by Game Designers' Workshop (the company which
published Traveller from 1977 through February of 1996). Marc's
company is Far Future Enterprises. Marc continues to be involved
with Traveller, by advising Imperium Games, and by frequent
participation on the Traveller Mailing List. <Also, beginning
with Emperor's Arsenal,> Marc <has>{intends to} directly
review<ed> all <Imperium Games>{future} products in the Traveller
line<, and will continue to do so>. Only those products that meet
his standards and align with his vision of what Traveller should
be will be published <by Imperium Games>.

Communicating With Other Traveller Enthusiasts

Are there any web sites with information about Traveller?

<Information about Traveller can be found at the Imperium Games
web site (http://www.imperiumgames.com), which also contains many
links to other sites of interest to Traveller enthusiasts. Also,
naturally, w>{W}e hope you'll look through the rest of the
Freelance Traveller site and find useful information here.
Freelance Traveller also has a links page. And, many of the
sites reachable from here <or from Imperium Games> will also have
additional links of their own.

Are there any IRC channels that are Traveller-related?

Certainly. Use any undernet server and join #traveller. The
channel has been registered, and is administered by Suzette
Dollar. Stop by any evening (U.S. time) and you'll almost
certainly find a few Traveller enthusiasts hanging out. Also on
this channel, there are occasionally scheduled moderated
discussions of a particular topic. These are generally scheduled
for Thursday evenings at 9:00PM (Eastern time). These events will
be announced in advance on the Traveller Mailing List, generally
about a week in advance of the discussion, but sometimes less. If
you need more information about IRC, contact your ISP. If you
don't know where to find an undernet server, visit
http://www.undernet.org, where you can find a complete list of
undernet servers worldwide.

Are there any mailing lists or newsgroups that are
Traveller-related?

Yes, indeed. Check out the Freelance Traveller Internet Resources
page, where you'll find information on the Traveller Mailing
List, the Traveller Technical Design List, the Traveller
<Language Project>{Cultural Development} list, and other lists as
they become available. While there are no specifically
Traveller-related newsgroups, there is the occasional discussion
of aspects of Traveller in the rec.games.frp hierarchy.

Who do I contact if I need an official answer to a
Traveller-related question?

Unfortunately, the "official" net representatives have resigned
their positions, leaving no real official presence to handle
questions, and therefore no source of "official" answers.
However, both Marc Miller and Loren Wiseman are members of the
Traveller Mailing List, and there are a lot of other
knowledgeable people on the Traveller Mailing List and monitoring
various newsgroups where Traveller-related questions may be
appropriate. So you can ask your question in any of those
locations, or through the Freelance Traveller Q&A Page.

Where do you get your official answers?

As indicated in the previous question, there aren't really any
"official" answers. Some answers come from our own knowledge and
experience with Traveller; others come from the designers of the
game. Those that come from the designers are generally accepted
as being "official" in that they signal the intentions of the
designers - but even those answers have been known to generate
debate, and many players and referees have alternative
interpretations.

Product Release Information

When will [insert product here] be shipped?

<The officially published schedule, which indicates when products
will be shipped to distributors and direct customers, is known
not to be accurate as of the date of this FAQ; there has been
"slippage" for a number of reasons. The Freelance Traveller staff
is attempting to get some more accurate information.
Nevertheless, to give you an idea of what Imperium Games's future
release plans, we are printing the presently-publicized release
schedule.
 - Aliens Volume 1 was originally scheduled for publication in
August 1997.
 - Nobles was originally scheduled for publication in November
1997.
 - Marc Miller's Traveller, release 1.1 was originally scheduled
for publication in December 1997.
 - The Vilani Hypothesis was originally scheduled for publication
in December 1997.>{Since, at the moment, there is no company with
both a license for and a commitment to Traveller, there is
nothing resembling a publication schedule for Traveller products.
GURPS: Traveller is expected to be released during the summer of
1998, but the editors of Freelance Traveller have seen nothing
official on this.}

Marc Miller has indicated that no future product will be shipped
until it passes his quality checks and meets his vision of what
Traveller is and should be.

What products have already been released?

The following products are available {and will continue to be
available from Imperium Games while the supply lasts} (the number
in the list matches the number on the spine of the product):

 1 Marc Miller's Traveller, the basic rules. This product is
reviewed in Freelance Traveller.

 2 Starships, a sourcebook with some basic information about
Traveller starships

 3 Central Supply Catalog, a sourcebook containing basic
information about Traveller equipment other than starships

 4 Aliens Archive, a sourcebook containing information on some
minor sophont races found in the Imperium

 5 Milieu 0, a sourcebook containing information on the Traveller
universe at the time of the founding of the Third Imperium

 6 First Survey, a sourcebook containing stellar maps and UWPs
for the Imperium and surrounds, contemporary with Milieu 0

 7 Emperor's Arsenal, a weapons sourcebook for Traveller.

 8 Pocket Empires, additional rules and source material for
adventuring in space beyond the Milieu 0 Imperial frontier

 9 Anomalies, a sourcebook containing a series of adventures that
can be linked into a single campaign

 A Psionic Institutes, a sourcebook containing rules and
adventured focusing on psionic powers and psionically active
characters

 B Fire, Fusion, and Steel, a technical architecture sourcebook
for weapons, vehicles, and space/starships

 C Emperor's Vehicles, a description of representative vehicles
of all types that may be found in the Third Imperium and its
surrounds.

 D Naval Architect's Manual, containing deckplan elements for
Traveller starships

 E Imperial Squadrons, containing rules and source material for
fleet actions, including combat

 F for some reason, there does not appear to be a product with
this spine letter.

 G Missions of State, a sourcebook containing a series of
adventures designed for Noble characters.

In addition, the following products that do not have spine
numbers have been released by Imperium Games{, and will continue
to be available while supplies last}:

The Traveller Game Screen (also referred to as the Referee's
Screen)

Adventure One, The Long Way Home, is the first part of the BITS
adventure by the same name. The BITS edition is reviewed here in
Freelance Traveller.

Adventure Two, Gateway, concludes the adventure begun in
Adventure One, and is the remainder of the BITS product.

Adventure Three, The Annililik Run

The Milieu 0 Campaign combines Milieu 0 and First Survey into a
single volume, and adds some supplemental information. This
product is reviewed in Freelance Traveller.

The Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society, issues 25 and
2<5>{6}<, are released>. Issues 1 through 24 were published by
Game Designers' Workshop in digest-sized format from 1977 through
1987. Imperium Games has since announced the discontinuation of
this Traveller magazine {and all future Traveller development}
<for the present>.

Other companies have released Traveller products, too. See the
section on Specific Questions About Traveller Products From Other
Companies for more information.

When will an error-corrected version of Traveller be available?

We don't know. All we know is that there is a commitment to
release one. We hope that it will be released during first or
second quarter of 1998.

Will a complete set of errata be available, or will customers
have to purchase the re-release when it comes out?

<Imperium Games has stated that they plan to have a complete set
of errata for the first edition of Traveller available both on
their web site and in printed form. It should therefore not be
necessary for you to purchase the re-release.>{Because of
Imperium Games discontinuing publication of Traveller, we can't
really answer this question.  Informally, Marc Miller has
indicated that he would support errata being available.}

What's this I hear about GURPS:Traveller?

Yes, it's true: Steve Jackson Games has received a license to
publish Traveller material. According to people involved in the
GURPS:Traveller project, GURPS:Traveller will be set in an
alternate Traveller timeline that diverges from the standard
Traveller timeline in the 1110's (Imperial dating). See the press
release from Steve Jackson Games, reproduced in the Freelance
Traveller News and Information section.

Specific Questions About Traveller Products< From Imperium Games>

What is going to be changed about Traveller history?

Now that Marc Miller is in charge of assuring that Traveller
material maintains consistency with previously published material
(including material considered official from prior editions of
Traveller), you can be sure that no changes will take place
unless Marc deems them to be in the best interests of the game.
Generally, the events will not change; what may very well change
is their interpretations - an event that happened in 200, and its
implications, may be understood differently in 200 than they will
be in 1100.

What changes will be made in subsequent printings of materials
for Marc Miller's Traveller?

The core rules will be updated to version 1.1, and will have all
the errata fixed and incorporated into the body. The Starships
sourcebook will have proper deck plans, properly-designed ships,
and typos will be corrected.

I really don't like [insert rule here]...

If you don't like something about any Traveller product, change
it. Or live with it. It's your choice. The people designing the
game and producing the materials aren't gods, and they know it -
they're people just like you. That means that they can't create
the perfect system for everyone, and they know that as well. They
take the view that what they are creating are guidelines, not
laws carved in stone. And if you do decide to change rules or
create new ones, there are a lot of people out there that will be
interested in seeing what you've done. So, we'd appreciate it if
you'd share those changes with us. See our Submissions Guidelines
page for how to submit the material, and below in this FAQ
(specifically, the Copyright Policy Information section) for
information on copyright issues connected with Traveller.

My local game store doesn't carry Traveller products. How can I
get Traveller?

In most places, the market operates on the basis of supply and
demand. If there's no demand, there will be no supply. If there
is no supply, then a logical conclusion would be that demand
needs to be created. So, go out and create some demand (there are
some ideas for that in the answer to the next question). If that
doesn't work, or if you're simply too impatient, you can always
order directly from Imperium Games.

I can't find any Traveller players in my area. How can I play
Traveller?

This ties in with creating demand for Traveller, to encourage
your local game store to carry Traveller products. You might have
ideas of your own; go for them - these are just some ideas that
we've come up with:

 - Run through some simple scenarios with prospective
customers/players. For example, a meeting with a patron, a casual
encounter, hitting a target with a weapon, and so on.  Show how
simple it is to use the system.

 - Talk up the system in places where you know local gamers
gather. Emphasize how the system has room for all sorts of tastes
in gaming.

 - If your local gaming store allows it, and has the facilities
to do it, set up and run sessions there, where people can come
and watch - and ask questions, which will give you an opening to
talk up the system. It's even better if you can offer them an
opportunity to sit in on your game for a few minutes.

Of course, there are other ways out there as well. If you set
your mind to it, you can find ways that work for you.

What <is Imperium Games doing>{will be done} to improve the
quality of <their>{Traveller} products?

The first edition of Marc Miller's Traveller, and the first
edition of Starships did not meet the quality standards that
Imperium Games wants for its products. They also did not measure
up to Marc Miller's standards. <Imperium Games has placed Marc
Miller in charge of product oversight, and they have>{Marc
intends to maintain oversight of future Traveller product
development, and has on many occasions} solicited (and
continue{s} to solicit) feedback from Traveller enthusiasts. <The
design and editing staffs have undergone changes because of the
response to the first two publications in the T4 line. Also, Marc
plans to bring on a professional graphic designer, and broaden
the number of art sources they use.>

<Specific Questions About Traveller Products From Other
Companies>

What other companies publish Traveller material?

At the moment, two British companies, BITS and CORE, have been
licensed to publish Traveller material. Also, Steve Jackson Games
has been licensed to publish Traveller material compatible with
their GURPS system.

Who or What is BITS?

BITS stands for British Isles Traveller Support, and is headed by
Andy Lilly. They've published the following Traveller
supplements:

 - 101 Cargos, containing descriptions of different kinds of
goods that can be used as hooks or other elements in a scenario
or adventure. (reviewed in Freelance Traveller)

 - 101 Plots, containing summaries of things that a referee could
use in the central story line of an adventure or scenario.
(reviewed in Freelance Traveller)

 - The Long Way Home, a complete adventure on the Imperial fringe
in Milieu 0. (reviewed in Freelance Traveller)

 - 101 Lifeforms, containing descriptions of lifeforms and their
habitats to add verisimilitude to a scenario, campaign, or
adventure. (reviewed in Freelance Traveller)

 - 101 Rendezvous, containing descriptions of places where people
might meet people. (reviewed in Freelance Traveller)

 - 101 Travellers, containing profiles of the people that PCs
might meet (perhaps in one of the 101 Rendezvous?). (reviewed in
Freelance Traveller)

 - The Traveller Bibliography, a complete listing of virtually
all Traveller products published by all companies, for any
version of Traveller.

Who or What is CORE?

CORE doesn't appear to be an acronym for anything, even though
it's written in all-caps.  Jo Grant heads up this organization,
formally called the CORE Gaming Collective. CORE works closely
with BITS, and also has some projects of its own, such as a
Traveller collectable-card game.

What can you tell me about GURPS:Traveller?

The GURPS:Traveller timeline is going to be an alternate
Traveller universe which splits off from the Imperium Games/Game
Designers' Workshop universe around Imperial year 1110. In the
GURPS:Traveller universe, Emperor Strephon is not assassinated,
there is no civil war, and Virus is never released. Loren
Wiseman, from the original Game Designers' Workshop team, will be
overseeing the GURPS:Traveller product line for Steve Jackson
Games, and will also be involved in art direction and some
production.

Copyright Policy Information

What is <Imperium Games>{Marc Miller}'s{/FarFuture's} copyright
policy in regards to original works posted to mailing lists,
newsgroups, or the World-Wide Web?

If you're not making money from it in any way, all you need to do
is include the message "Traveller is a trademark of Far Future
Enterprises" and you'll be fine. Many people include additional
acknowledgements and disclaimers as well, but these are not
required.

<Imperium Games and> Far Future Enterprises encourage{s}
Traveller fans to create their own material - from weapons,
equipment, and vehicles to rules variants to scenarios,
adventures, and campaigns. They further encourage the sharing of
this material; it can only improve the game. But see the
questions below on commercial publication.

What is the policy regarding copying previously published works
by Game Designers' Workshop?

Since all of that material is owned by Marc Miller at this point,
you need his permission. He can be reached at FarFuture@aol.com
for e-mail, or c/o Imperium Games via paper-mail.

What about previously published works from other sources?

You must contact the owner of the copyrights on those works for
permission and terms. The latest information available to
Freelance Traveller on the status of Digest Group Publications
material is that all rights are owned by Roger Sanger, and that
as yet, he has no agreement <with Imperium Games> to reprint
their Traveller material. We have no information on the status of
works published by any other company at this time - but if you
do, we'd appreciate hearing what you know.

If I create an original work for Traveller, who owns it?

You do. You may want to include a copyright notice in your work
to explicitly state this. But, your ownership of your work
doesn't mean that you can make money from it - you need Imperium
Games's permission to do that. See the questions "How do I get a
license to publish my original work commercially?" and "How do I
contact an existing licensee to offer them my work?".

Is there any way around all this stuff?

Yes. Don't refer to Traveller in your work, and don't incorporate
material from Traveller or any Traveller-related product. Say
that it is for Science Fiction RPGs, and keep it generic.

Can my original Traveller work be published without my
permission?

No. Just like you need permission to refer to reference Traveller
in your works, or to incorporate Traveller materials, so too do
they need your permission to reference or incorporate or
otherwise use your work.

How do I get a license to publish my original work commercially?

If you don't want to publish it under the <Imperium Games>
label<, or that> of any <of its>{existing Traveller} licensee<s>,
you'll have to contact <Imperium Games>{Marc Miller/FarFuture
Enterprises} to get a license (you don't need a license to sell
your work to <Imperium Games or> a licensee - but then, they're
the ones publishing it, not you).< You can contact Imperium Games
at

Imperium Games, Inc.
9461 Charleville Blvd. #307
Beverly Hills, CA 90212
Phone: +1 (310) 275-9934
Fax: +1 (310) 275-9322
email: imperiumgames@imperiumgames.com
web site: http://www.imperiumgames.com>

How do I contact an existing licensee to offer them my work?

To contact Imperium Games:

Imperium Games, Inc.
9461 Charleville Blvd. #307
Beverly Hills, CA 90212
Phone: +1 (310) 275-9934
Fax: +1 (310) 275-9322
email: imperiumgames@imperiumgames.com
web site: http://www.imperiumgames.com>

To contact BITS:

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
c/o Andy Lilly
25 Coney Gree
Sawbridgeworth
Hertsfordshire CM21 ODA
England

Phone: none known at present
Fax: none known at present
email: A.S.Lilly@nortel.co.uk
web:http://www.innocom.demon.co.uk/BITS/ 

To Contact Steve Jackson Games:

Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
P.O. Box 18957
Austin, TX 78760
USA
Phone: +1 (512) 447-7866
Fax: +1 (512) 447-1144
email: sjgames@io.com
web:http://www.sjgames.com/

To Contact CORE:

CORE Gaming Collective
14 Lorcan Crescent
Santry
Dublin 9
Ireland

Phone: +353 1 842 1169
Fax: none known at present
email: jo.grant@crd.lotus.com
web:http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #366
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, April 5 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 367



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #365
OT Film Review: Lost in Space
Traveller Book
Re: MGs
Re: CT and T?
Re: Traveller Book
re: Traveller Book/YATTS: Heavy Gear
Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?
Re: MGs
Re: Modular ship design
Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller
Re: Traveller Book
Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?
T Book
Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller
Book
Re: Modular ship design
Assorted

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 22:32:05
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #365

>
>Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 12:49:17 EST
>From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
>Subject: MGs
>
>Maybe its just me, but _I_ would take this rule as a sign that the designers
>didn't _intend_ for people to be able to design hand-held meson guns below TL
>15...
>
>Then again, rules always seem to get in the way of some peoples' fun. 
>
>Loren Wiseman
>

Loren,

Does that mean you would heartily disapprove at my 15 cm range Barbie-scale
Particle Accelerator Pistol ?

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:07:01 -0500
>From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #352
>
>I'm afraid I would have to differ with you on MaCarthur's military standing.
>He lost fewer people (all services, all countries) in the Pacific campaign
>than was lost at D-Day alone in Europe.  

Dougout Doug was also in charge of the Philipines in 1941. He was the
General ... he must take responsibility for the readiness and preparedness
of the forces under his command.

You might also check out some of the totally unneccessary operations in the
South-West Pacific in 1945 that Macarthur authorised.

>Sounds pretty smart to me.  He also
>sorted out a little skirmish in a country called Korea that has had the
>heads of quite a number of Generals world wide nodding in approval and with
>some small amount of awe.  Maybe you've heard of the Pusan landings.  As a

Yes. You mean that landing onto a defended, built-up area with 12' tides
and easily minable channels that where the knocking out of a handful of
landing craft could have crippled the entire landing ? The one with an
undefended beach 50km away with none of these problems ?

The *only* redeeming feature of the Pusan landings was that they worked.

Secondly, his illegal and *incredibly* provactive authorisation of attacks
on China brought the Chinese into the war, and turned what was a nice
little win for the UN forces into a slugfest. 

Thirdly, his complete discounting of the possibility of Chinese
intervention led to the adoption of a advance rate and posture that left
the UN forces strung out and badly vulnerable to counter-attack. 

He should have been cashiered over the Philipines, and shot over Korea.

>soldier I believe I would have rather served under Mac than Patton and (God
>forgive me) Monty.  I honestly can't think of one WWI general I would have
>liked to serve under, they all used some type of "Human Wave" tactics.  Just
>the thought of this scares me to death.

Brusilov and Monash, to name two.

>Thom Harris (not a historian, just a reader and a retired soldier)

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 16:12:43 -0800
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: OT Film Review: Lost in Space

Stop laughing.

Okay, the television was the ultimate in bad televised SF, but the film
more than redeems the concept of the starlost family.

(note: this is going both to the Duchovny and Traveller lists.  Duchovniks
ignore the Ob Trav and TMLers ignore the Sniper .sig, and nobody gets hurt.)

 In 2058, Professor John Robinson (William Hurt) leads a mission to start
settlement of an Earth like world, since our Earth is dying.  To prove his
sincerity (and to get them off the planet) he brings his family along; wife
Maureen (a biologist), daughters Judy (medical doctor) and Penny (teen
geek-goth), and son Will (electronics genius- makes Wesley Crusher look
like a slacker.)  Along for the ride is last minute replacement pilot Major
West and a truly evil Dr. Smith (Gary Oldman having the time of his life),
who is betrayed by the folks who paid him to sabotage the ship.

There is a plot among the special effects, and I won't be giving away to
much by saying that it has a lot of fun with the concept of time-travel and
redemption.  The action is fast and furious, the effects excellent, and all
in all a good ride.

Hurt's performance as the remote father is a bit to restrained, and it
makes his few outburst seem forced.  The bulk of the cast does a
serviceable job of reading their lines and hitting marks.  This is Gary
Oldman's movie though.  His Dr. Smith oozes evil from every pore.  He plays
just enough to the television Smith without becoming a parody.  It works,
because we occasionally forget that he is a self-proclaimed monster.

The film's ending is *very* predictable, and has series written all of it,
but I didn't mind.  Very enjoyable, well worth a matinee viewing.  This is
a definite popcorn flick.  One warning: the end credits are unwatchable.
They flash like a disco on speed.

Ob Trav: Lots of neat ideas to be mined from this film.  The Jupiter 2
reminded me of a Type A free trader.

The Sniper, picking popcorn out of his teeth...


- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 18:03:01 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Traveller Book

Hi, 

I'm back with the book...

> could you mail me: author, title, publisher and ISBN ;-)

...give me a minute.

Title: _Mark Miller's TRAVELLER Gateway to the Stars_

Author: Pierce Askegren

Publisher:  Pocket Books

ISBN: 0-671-01188-X

Price: 5.99 US / 7.99 Can

Page Count: 327

So, far I've read the back cover, the Prologue, and half the first chapter.
I've only seen one boo-boo, low-berths are refered to as being drugged,
frozen, and stowed in the cargo bay...close but not quite. ;->  Vilani is
misspelled as Velani a couple of places in the Prologue, but generally he
has the Traveller history right.

                    =====================================
Back cover blurb:

 With Farworld as  his first port of call, independent shipper Navis
Redling is back in business after a year in detox. Or so it seems...

 The man claiming to be Redling is in reality a notorious criminal who has
bought Redling's identity -- including his face, some memories, and a
spaceship. What he has also bought is a heap of trouble in the form of
Redling's checkered past and current enemies. Redling clearly had good
reason to part with his identity.

 But the man taking Redling's identity has more difficulties than that. Two
of the passengers he ferries through the Galactic Rim are dangerous: Kob
Thrommus, an undercover secret agent, and Ku-Ril-La, a mysterious member of
the enigmatic Guy-Troy. Redling does not believe Ku-Ril-La's claims that he
is simply re-creating a trip he took in his youth -- and he must work to
make sure Kob does not learn his true identity!

 It's non-stop action and adventure from Pierce Askegren, the acclaimed
author of the best-selling novels _Sabotage_, _Wreckage_ and _Countdown to
Chaos_.
             ========================================

I'll post more after I have a chance to read it.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 15:40:03 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: MGs

GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com> Loren Wiseman wrote
> Subject: 
> 
> > The rules state that all meson guns require a beam pointer.  if you wish to 
> >  design an effective hand held meson gun below Tl 15 you will probably need
> >  to _ignore_ this rule because the beam pointer will be so heavy as to make
> >  the gun impractical. 
> 
> Maybe its just me, but _I_ would take this rule as a sign that the designers
> didn't _intend_ for people to be able to design hand-held meson guns below TL
> 15...

No I am sure they did not either, but the design system as published did
not have any minimum volumes required for meson guns in the first place
and _that_ was the problem with it. It would be nice if GURPS Traveller
closed this loophole.

My primary reason for suggesting the elimination of the beam pointer was
not practicality but verisimilitude.  I do not think a man portable
meson gun needs a beam pointer since it uses the mark 1 eyeball for a
targeting system. 

> Arguably no small arm should require a beam
> pointer since it will be manually fired.  

The design I posted had a beam pointer.
 
> Then again, rules always seem to get in the way of some peoples' fun.

Well I would say rather that the lack of a minimum total volume, mass,
etc, listed for meson guns on the table was the problem.  If you cannot
create a munchkin weapon then you will not.

If on the other hand the design sequences do not stop you from making a
munchkin weapon then that suggests that designers thought that a weapon
with these capabilities was a "legitimate" creation of that tech level.
I would not want man portable meson weapons in a campaign either but if
the design sequence does not forbid them they must be valid. 

- -- 
"My father warned me about men and booze, but he never mentioned a word
 about women and cocaine."   --   Talullah Bankhead

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:49:22 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT and T?

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> 
> But over time this difference will most likely become increasingly
> insignificant, especially if WotC want to integrate TSR.

Possibly, possibly not.  As far as it goes now they're two seperate
companies.  One happens to be owned by the other.  But TSR is still TSR and
WotC is still WotC.

Get one too few cards in your Magic booster pack?  Take it to WotC.

Want to see a return of Gamma World?  Take it to TSR.

That's my final statement on the whole shebang.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 21:02:01 -0500
From: Bill Rutherfotd <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Book

At 01:21 PM 4/4/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
>> 
>> It had a 1998 date on it, and it wasn't on the shelf last week, so I'm
>> guessing *very* new. I didn't look real closely at Marc's "How to play
>> Traveller" chapter in the back, but from the skim it looked more like a
>> synopsis of T4.1 than T4. There was also an add for some Traveller books
>on
>> last page.  I'll have to go back tomorrow and buy it.
>
>I'll have to check out my local store and see if they have it as well.
>
>> Walden Books, BTW.
>

I must have missed the message giving the book's title - what is it?



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 21:03:58 -0500
From: Bill Rutherfotd <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: re: Traveller Book/YATTS: Heavy Gear

At 01:37 PM 4/4/98 -0500, Dom wrote:
<Snip>...
>>Speaking of new publications, has anybody else seen _TRAVELLER: Gateway to
>>the Stars_, a new novel from Pocket Books?  I saw it tonight, didn't buy
>>it, but it contains a 10-15 page T4 brief by Marc Miller in the back.
>

Oops - sorry for previous post; here's the title!



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 20:31:48 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?

At 02:34 PM 4/4/98 -0600, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>On 04/04/98 at 01:56 AM,  Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> said:
>
>>This is where you select a beam pointer for your meson gun. The rules
>>state that all meson guns require a beam pointer.  if you wish to design
>>an effective hand held meson gun below Tl 15 you will probably need to
>>_ignore_ this rule because the beam pointer will be so heavy as to make
>>the gun impractical. (Arguably no small arm should require a beam pointer
>>since it will be manually fired).  
>
>I've meant to ask this for years...just what exactly *is* a beam pointer? I
>know what it does, and that is the "integral fire control capabilities...",
>but just exactly what is it?   A fire-control computer?  A range finder? A
>sight? 
>
>Is the beam pointer, meant to be the in-play sensor mechianism that does
>the actual "target lock" that allows a weapon to hit something?

Eris,

Beam pointers were originally for a *constant* target data updating
mechanisms. Unfortunately with Bruce's Sensor System they are not needed
except when you have a SA (Semi Active) homing missiles. Bruces Sensor
system has methods to hand off target locks without the need of beam pointers.

In their *original* intent they were a *questionable* value. It has been
debated/discussed on the GDW Beta/Trav Tech list many times as to the
*value* of a beam pointer. 

Some have said that a beam pointer included the *traversing* mechanisms for
the weapon at hand, but that has many *holes*, ie spinal mounts do don't
need a *traversing* mechanism, why does of single small turret have the
same *traversing* mechanism that a 100 ton bay mount has, or why does a
*battery* of weapons only need one beam pointer for *traversing* mechanism.
The list of *holes* goes on and on. 

Others have said that a beam pointer is *fine alignment* mechanism for the
weapon(s) but some of the same *holes* from above apply.

In the end beam pointers were a gaming ill thought out wargaming *kludge*
brought to you by the same person(s) that gave TNE the less than plasma
temp Heplar drives, even though several persons have proved otherwise about
the Heplar drives output temps. 



- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 21:29:00 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: MGs

Peter Newman wrote:

> GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com> Loren Wiseman wrote
> > Subject:
> >
> > > The rules state that all meson guns require a beam pointer.  if you wish to
> > >  design an effective hand held meson gun below Tl 15 you will probably need
> > >  to _ignore_ this rule because the beam pointer will be so heavy as to make
> > >  the gun impractical.
> >
> > Maybe its just me, but _I_ would take this rule as a sign that the designers
> > didn't _intend_ for people to be able to design hand-held meson guns below TL
> > 15...
>
> No I am sure they did not either, but the design system as published did
> not have any minimum volumes required for meson guns in the first place
> and _that_ was the problem with it. It would be nice if GURPS Traveller
> closed this loophole.
>
> My primary reason for suggesting the elimination of the beam pointer was
> not practicality but verisimilitude.  I do not think a man portable
> meson gun needs a beam pointer since it uses the mark 1 eyeball for a
> targeting system.
>

The problem is that Meson guns are point weapons not straight line weapons.
Pointing it at somebody isn't enough, you've got to have it decay within a narrow
band of about .2 meters.  Less or more and its detonating outside the guy, thus
apply armor (I don't know what the blast radius is for mesons though).  Thus you
most certainly need some sort of range finding device (and a very accurate one at
that).  To paraphrase a popular saying, its much easier to hit the inside of a
broad barn than it is to hit a man. You're also fighting the square cube law.  For
a CPR gun, you're trying to hit a surface.  For a meson gun, you're trying to hit
a  volume.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 21:30:23 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Modular ship design

Joe,

We've been working along similar lines. In my modular ship I've built the
J-drive as a "lollipop" shape which includes a manuver drive, a power plant,
a J-drive, and "removable" fule tanks (not drop tanks but station
replacables that can be changed according to mission).

THe "stick" is a series of docking rings for shuttles of various sizes but
with standard connections. Each shuttle is self contained, with it's own
power and manuver drive ( they are also configurable, designed to hold
standard containers that include cargo, lab and cabin arrangements, also
semi-self contained). One shuttle is the living quarters for the crew, as
well as lifeboat and landing for same.

Since the ship is for primary systems it doesn't really carry weapons,
however the shuttle(s) do. I also see it operating as a mil ship (merchant
marine) in the area of my campaign, a light jump carrier in times of need,
with the riders carrying the weapons and it performing a quick in and out
system jump.

Size and tonnage is also variable, increase the J-drive size and the fuel
capacity and ad another sreies of docing rings to the "stick".

What I really wanted was an attachable J-drive module. This is as close as
I've gotten.

Don't know if it helps in your case. In mine the deck plans are comeing out
neat as heck. I'm also using some of the ideas for an early Terran,
non-artificial grave version.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
To: traveller mailing list <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, April 04, 1998 12:04 PM
Subject: Modular ship design


>I've been working on my 350 dT modular freighter and I've been tossing
>around an idea.  Right now the design includes a 100 dT bay (usually for
>modular cutter) and 8 sockets around the perimeter for 15 dT modular
>cylinders. Its got a jump drive built in, but I might store the fuel in
>the modular cylindars. I'm putting in a fusion reactor for power, but
>I'm not sure about power.
>
>Should I just design power modules, like a 15 dT "portable" reactor?
>and just add on power modules as necessary? Or should I install the
>reactor into the freighter itself? If I do design modular power plants,
>I'm thinking that I should build staterooms into the module to
>accomodate the added crew neccesary for for the plant.
>
>Similarly, I've been working on modular armaments.  Perhaps a module
>with a barbette, independant power plant, stateroom and storage.
>
>However would it be better to just have a big honking plant in the
>freighter and just hook up to it, or are the independent units better?
>
>I'm looking for opinions pro and con...
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 21:01:22 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller

> From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>
> I've had nothing but good success with my ongoing GURPS Traveller
> campaign.  Could it be something to do with somethings else in
> how it was set up rather than mechanics?  (sometimes choices
> can be harder in a generic system because it provides a lot
> fewer restrictions on what you can do, though buy GURPS Traveller
> when it comes out, written as it is by a Traveller "founder"
> should eliminate this problem).

I've been a GURPS detractor based on its combat system for a long time now.
 However, in "boning up" on it recently for the upcoming G:T, I've got to
be honest.  It's an absolutely wonderful system.  It's tied together so
well, and so many little things have been taken into account (the
smothering and choking rules, for example) that it's hard _not_ to like it.

I'm still not sold entirely on the combat, although in rereading a few
times over, I like the level of detail in the combats.  I like the "feel"
of the combats, but, I'm still concerned that the rules are a little
klunky.

The main selling point for GURPS, in my opinion, is the fact that just
about anything can be plugged into it.  You could learn the rules and play
with just about any genre without having to learn anything new. 
Furthermore, you can plug in things from other sourcebooks painlessly and
effortlessly.  Finally, another big selling point, is that it's an
incredibly robust and complete system with alot of playtesting behind it. 
The fact that so many things are covered by the rules is truly impressive.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 21:37:19 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Book

> From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
> 
> The ST series is the first I've heard of *any* major book publisher doing.
> IIRC the deal caused a stir when it was announced, because it was
> considered something of a breakthrough for the industry.  

Well, Random House, I believe, distributed TSR stuff to the book trade for
a while.  Don't know if they still do.  But, it is pretty interesting
nonetheless...

I was thinking that you may, in fact, be right with your idea that
Traveller may be picked up by someone way in left field if Pocket Books is
considering becoming involved with RPGs.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 21:55:16 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?

Sam Thomas wrote:

> At 02:34 PM 4/4/98 -0600, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> >On 04/04/98 at 01:56 AM,  Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> said:
> >
> >>This is where you select a beam pointer for your meson gun. The rules
> >>state that all meson guns require a beam pointer.  if you wish to design
> >>an effective hand held meson gun below Tl 15 you will probably need to
> >>_ignore_ this rule because the beam pointer will be so heavy as to make
> >>the gun impractical. (Arguably no small arm should require a beam pointer
> >>since it will be manually fired).
> >
> >I've meant to ask this for years...just what exactly *is* a beam pointer? I
> >know what it does, and that is the "integral fire control capabilities...",
> >but just exactly what is it?   A fire-control computer?  A range finder? A
> >sight?
> >
> >Is the beam pointer, meant to be the in-play sensor mechianism that does
> >the actual "target lock" that allows a weapon to hit something?
>
> Eris,
>
> Beam pointers were originally for a *constant* target data updating
> mechanisms. Unfortunately with Bruce's Sensor System they are not needed
> except when you have a SA (Semi Active) homing missiles. Bruces Sensor
> system has methods to hand off target locks without the need of beam pointers.
>
> In their *original* intent they were a *questionable* value. It has been
> debated/discussed on the GDW Beta/Trav Tech list many times as to the
> *value* of a beam pointer.
>
> Some have said that a beam pointer included the *traversing* mechanisms for
> the weapon at hand, but that has many *holes*, ie spinal mounts do don't
> need a *traversing* mechanism, why does of single small turret have the
> same *traversing* mechanism that a 100 ton bay mount has, or why does a
> *battery* of weapons only need one beam pointer for *traversing* mechanism.
> The list of *holes* goes on and on.
>
> Others have said that a beam pointer is *fine alignment* mechanism for the
> weapon(s) but some of the same *holes* from above apply.

Actually, you're missing something here.  Those spinal weapons have HUGE ranges
which require the longer range and thus LARGER beam pointers.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 22:18:18 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: T Book

Dose anyone know the TITLE?? for the book!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 22:15:09 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller

- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, April 04, 1998 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller


>I've been a GURPS detractor based on its combat system for a long time now.
> However, in "boning up" on it recently for the upcoming G:T, I've got to
>be honest.  It's an absolutely wonderful system.  It's tied together so
>well, and so many little things have been taken into account (the
>smothering and choking rules, for example) that it's hard _not_ to like it.
>
Chris,
The thing to remember with Gurps is to throw out the rules that slow down
YOUR game. If/as your players become more familiar withe the combat
sequence, you can add more and more detail. The detail is there, but don;t
use it all at once with new players (and especially with a new GM!). As your
game, campaign grows it'll grow into the rules.

>I'm still not sold entirely on the combat, although in rereading a few
>times over, I like the level of detail in the combats.  I like the "feel"
>of the combats, but, I'm still concerned that the rules are a little
>klunky.
>
See above. Use what you need to for YOU game. Toss out the rest, but, if you
continue to play GURPS, you'll wind up adding in the complexity eventually.

>The main selling point for GURPS, in my opinion, is the fact that just
>about anything can be plugged into it.  You could learn the rules and play
>with just about any genre without having to learn anything new.
>Furthermore, you can plug in things from other sourcebooks painlessly and
>effortlessly.  Finally, another big selling point, is that it's an
>incredibly robust and complete system with alot of playtesting behind it.
>The fact that so many things are covered by the rules is truly impressive.
>
That's the beauty of it all right! I've been playing it since version 1
(migrated from the Fantasy Trip, designed by Steve J for Metagames and a
direct ancestor to GURPS). Once the players and the Ref have the ground
works anything is possible. Best game we had was a pickup involving the Old
West and Space:1889 type of sci-fi. Didn't have a western world book then,
nor one covering 1889, just plugged in the sci-fi elements for 1889 and
everyone's "knowledge" of t.v. westerns, and used GURPS combat (which we all
knew). One of the best off the cuff games we ever had!

>Just my 2 cents worth.
>
And mine.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 22:23:22 -0500
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Book

Please ignore my prior post. I finally found the book.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 00:28:21 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Modular ship design

First of all I've got a preliminary plan for my modular freighter online:
 http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/1056/infiniti.htm

Michael D. Peters wrote:

> Joe,
>
> We've been working along similar lines. In my modular ship I've built the
> J-drive as a "lollipop" shape which includes a manuver drive, a power plant,
> a J-drive, and "removable" fule tanks (not drop tanks but station
> replacables that can be changed according to mission).

You might want to think about combining these fuel tanks into a cargo/fuel
module.  That way the module can be loaded up at the station and brought out of
the gravity well to wait for the freighter cutting down turnaround time.

>
>
> THe "stick" is a series of docking rings for shuttles of various sizes but
> with standard connections. Each shuttle is self contained, with it's own
> power and manuver drive ( they are also configurable, designed to hold
> standard containers that include cargo, lab and cabin arrangements, also
> semi-self contained). One shuttle is the living quarters for the crew, as
> well as lifeboat and landing for same.
>

yup, very handy.

> Since the ship is for primary systems it doesn't really carry weapons,
> however the shuttle(s) do. I also see it operating as a mil ship (merchant
> marine) in the area of my campaign, a light jump carrier in times of need,
> with the riders carrying the weapons and it performing a quick in and out
> system jump.
>

My freighter improves jump performance when empty.  In fact, if I filled the bay
with fuel as well as the internal fuel tanks, the empty freighter could pull a
double 6 jump.  12 parsecs in 2 weeks!  Unfortunately, dragging around close to
600 dTons extra cargo kinda puts a crimp on things.

> Size and tonnage is also variable, increase the J-drive size and the fuel
> capacity and ad another sreies of docing rings to the "stick".
>

So each ring contains additional jump capacity etc.  Very similar concept...

> What I really wanted was an attachable J-drive module. This is as close as
> I've gotten.
>
> Don't know if it helps in your case. In mine the deck plans are comeing out
> neat as heck. I'm also using some of the ideas for an early Terran,
> non-artificial grave version.
>

My plans involve the freighter itself being in mostly zero-grav but capable of
installing thruster modules to generate gravity (via thrust) perpendicular to
the disk plane.  Primarily this is for landing when planetary gravity takes over
and the whole thing turns into a sky scraper (if stacked really high).  Some
modules will have their own artificial gravity though.

It looks to me as though there will be some stiff competition between these
designs...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 00:36:08 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Assorted

Dave Golden saith:

>And for what it's worth, Marc has responded fairly well to requests
>for GDW material. I've gotten almost everything I still need. It may
>be that he's just a wee bit busy, trying to sort out the failure of
>IG, recovering all the rights he licensed, writing T4.1, and
>negotiating for a new publisher.

Another Factor: this is the week of the GAMA (Game Manufacturer's
Association)Trade Show. Marc may be AF his home K for a while...

Eris Saith:

>Um, Loren...
>
>"All heavy (non-small arms) lasers, particle accelerators, and meson guns
>require beam pointers...", p89 FFS.
>
>My interpretation of that sentence is that small arm (ie, hand held) laser,
>PAW, and Meson gun's do NOT require a beam pointer.  

Is that the sentence from GDW's version of FFS? It has been so long, I don't
remember, and my copy is still in a box in a storage locker in Illinois. If it
is from the GDW FF&S, it is the same sentence Scott (2G) Kellogg quoted back
at me when I mentioned the same thing to him, lo these many years ago (and
which three weeks after we sent the book to the printer I predicted to Dave
Nilsen: "I'll be seeing that sentence quoted back at me real soon now..."). My
response then is my response now: It is a poorly written sentence, and would
have been corrected had we done another edition (instead of simply telling the
printer "do the same thing again"). The fact that GDW provided for shoulder
stocks, pistol graps, and such in the laser sequence, and _did not_ in the PAW
& meson gun sequence is proof GDW didn't intend for there to be hand carried
meson guns. QED.

Scott got rather huffy with me, as I recall, but that may have been because I
(in a spirit of fun) accused him of wanting to do Traveller: Ghostbusters...:
)

>OTOH, I don't know if I like the idea of paw or meson pistols.

I certainly don't -- I think they'd unbalance the look and feel of the game
but good. YTUMV, of course.

Loren

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #367
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, April 5 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 368



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)
Asst.
Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller
Re: Baby Meson Guns and PAWs
Re: MGs
Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller
Re: something or other...
Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller
Cultural Resonance, the Future [LONG]
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Displacement tons
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #367

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 21:24:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

In mail you write:

>>Sure. That's done. The problem comes when you find out that a "new"
>>situation leads to a *bad* response. Then you may discover that it's
>>not possible to correct the erroneous response by simply "teaching" the
>>AI that this is a bad response. Doing so may not take, or may lead to a
>>*different* bad decision in known situations. It all depends on the
>>internal "mappings" created by training.
>
> The same could very well be applied to a human with the wrong response. All
> I'm saying is that there has toe be (handwaved up) a reason for why robots
> cannot learn human knowledge through experience and then apply it AND/OR
> why you cannot copy the content of the robots brain.
>
> I'm leaning towards the explanation that you can build trainable robot
> brains but they take quite a lot of time to train and unfortunately the
> content of their brain cannot be copied due to the nonlinear way their
> brains work. Any replication errors however small will lead to large global
> changes due to the inherent unlinearness of the algorithms used.

I'd say that the problems are long training time *and* the fact that
the brain *keeps* learning. So even though you can copy a "starter",
due to the inherently "limited" experience of the robot brain it has a
much stronger tendency than humans to "learn the wrong lesson". This
*severely* limits their usefulness.

In other words, any time you have the AI make an exception, or tell it
that the rules *here* are a bit different from the ones it was trained
under, you increase the chance that it'll make a "wrong" decision at
some future point. 

Such wrong decisions should have a sort of logic too them, but kind of
skewed. Say for example that you'd told a "customs" robot to let
Frederick Fortesque, the leader of some planet, thru without being
checked. Alas, you weren't *specific* in stating that he was let thru
because he was the leader. So the AI might decide that people named
Frederick, or Fortesque don't need to be checked.

This is a *reasonable* decision GIVEN THE AI'S KNOWLEDGE. The fact that
it is ludicrous in *human* terms is merely because of our greater
knowledge base.

This is also great for driving players *nuts*. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 01:11:23 EST
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Asst.

Kenji,

>Does that mean you would heartily disapprove at my 15 cm range Barbie-scale
>Particle Accelerator Pistol ?

Only if it jumps the perimeter and makes a break for it...


Peter Newman:

>Well I would say rather that the lack of a minimum total volume, mass,
>etc, listed for meson guns on the table was the problem.  If you cannot
>create a munchkin weapon then you will not.
>
>If on the other hand the design sequences do not stop you from making a
>munchkin weapon then that suggests that designers thought that a weapon
>with these capabilities was a "legitimate" creation of that tech level.

All I can plead is that we couldn't catch everything.

>I would not want man portable meson weapons in a campaign either but if
>the design sequence does not forbid them they must be valid. 

Everything not forbidden is compulsary?

Sorry...It is late and I'm tired. Dave Nilsen did not intend to allow tham
smaller than vehicle-sized until after TL15, but we didn't phrase it
especially well. I think he did intend to have then at TL 17 or so, which may
be why ther was no lower limit on the size.

I'll have to check with David Pulver and see what limits GURPS puts on Meson
weapons.

Semo Said:
>Well, Random House, I believe, distributed TSR stuff to the book trade for
>a while.  Don't know if they still do.

True. TSR and Random house parted ways shortly before the buyout, however.
Don't know who distributes the stuff to the book trades now. I do know WOTC
moved TSR to Washingon state -- lock, stock and barrel...dunno if they moved
into the same building, but the business cards from Dragon ad reps and such
say WOTC at the top, whatever that's worth -- they probably eliminated all of
the duplicate admin positions. 

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 19:42:12 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller

Sat, 04 Apr 98 15:45:43 -0600, eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>I *like* semi-random chargen, I don't like giving characters benefits  for
>taking Disadvantages, and taken together you can see I don't believe in
>"balanced characters", not as balanced as GURPS does it anyway. I guess
>this makes it hard to get started.

Well, disads are pretty modular.  You can just drop them (or
just have the players choose few without taking points) without
changing the game system much.

You can also roll attribute (to come out in whatever range you
want) but it is harder to randomly get advantes and skills (not
impossible, just more work).  You could roll attributes and
have the players buy the rest (either giving fixed points for
them or a larger pool that the points for the attributes rolled
is subtracted).

>What I've never tried is to generate
>the characters in some version of Traveller and then convert them that
>would probably help.

Well, that would be good for those who believe in the Traveller
generation system as unadultured as possible.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 06:41:14
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Baby Meson Guns and PAWs

>Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 00:36:08 EST
>From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
>Subject: Assorted

>
>I certainly don't -- I think they'd unbalance the look and feel of the game
>but good. YTUMV, of course.
>
>Loren

Loren,

The problem isnt the handheld weapons - indeed, a PAW is the only way I can
see that you can get a traditional "Laser Rifle" under FFS2.

The handheld weapons of vaguely reasonable range and damage value tend to
be at or around 90 kilos, so they are battledress-only weapons. I mean, a
1d6 damage PAW body pistol is cute, but it isnt what I'd issue to my palace
guard.

The problem is when you go upscale slightly, to artillery size weapons. As
an example, I'd cite 'The Solution', a TL11 Meson Artillery piece, which I
posted a while ago.

Essentially, it is a 30 km range Meson Gun, linked to a TL11 Fire Direction
Center. Instant fire to any point within 50km, with zero time delay, and no
LOS or time to target issues.

This sort of weapon revolutionises TL11 and up military tactics. For
example, meson screens start to be mounted on most military vehicles.
Militaries without meson screens start going to dispersion or stealth
tactics. Marines become fire-support spotters. And so on.

We need to make them illegal.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:41:26 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: MGs

Sat, 04 Apr 1998 15:40:03 -0900, Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>My primary reason for suggesting the elimination of the beam pointer was
>not practicality but verisimilitude.  I do not think a man portable
>meson gun needs a beam pointer since it uses the mark 1 eyeball for a
>targeting system.

Doesn't a meson gun need to know the distance to the target?

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:52:42 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller

Sat, 4 Apr 1998 21:01:22 -0500, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
[deletions]
>I'm still not sold entirely on the combat, although in rereading a few
>times over, I like the level of detail in the combats.  I like the "feel"
>of the combats, but, I'm still concerned that the rules are a little
>klunky.

Well feel free to ignore rules and tinker.  If you don't
like something, you can post a question on the GURPS list
and everyone can trot out their own house rule.

[deletions]
>The main selling point for GURPS, in my opinion, is the fact that just
>about anything can be plugged into it.  You could learn the rules and play
>with just about any genre without having to learn anything new.

Well, that was why I got into it.  I was tired of learning new
rules.

[deletions]

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 01:07:56 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: something or other...

>You might also check out some of the totally unneccessary operations in the
>South-West Pacific in 1945 that Macarthur authorised.

  That topic I'm not familiar with.

>The *only* redeeming feature of the Pusan landings was that they worked.

  To be fair, they were very sure that they would work. In addition to good
planning, luxurious support, and great troops, they needed a leader willing
to take some risk.

>Secondly, his illegal and *incredibly* provactive authorisation of attacks
>on China brought the Chinese into the war, and turned what was a nice
>little win for the UN forces into a slugfest. 
>
>Thirdly, his complete discounting of the possibility of Chinese
>intervention led to the adoption of a advance rate and posture that left
>the UN forces strung out and badly vulnerable to counter-attack. 

  Well, yes.

>He should have been cashiered over the Philipines, and shot over Korea.

  I'm beginning to suspect that this "Ian" fellow may not be a U.S. citizen...
Perhaps Kenji has yet another fellow "Traveller", eh, Comrade?

>>soldier I believe I would have rather served under Mac than Patton and (God
>>forgive me) Monty.  I honestly can't think of one WWI general I would have
>>liked to serve under, they all used some type of "Human Wave" tactics.  Just
>>the thought of this scares me to death.
>
>Brusilov and Monash, to name two.

  Mackensen and Currie, for others. Trotsky didn't do too bad, either :)

  But Santanocheev would've outdone them all, yes?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 05:54:55 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: YATTS: GURPS & Traveller

> From: Michael D. Peters <Letterworks@citnet.com>
>
> Chris,
> The thing to remember with Gurps is to throw out the rules that slow down
> YOUR game. If/as your players become more familiar withe the combat
> sequence, you can add more and more detail. The detail is there, but don;t
> use it all at once with new players (and especially with a new GM!). As your
> game, campaign grows it'll grow into the rules.

Oh sure, not just GURPS.  The same goes for any game!  I have no problem
ripping out what I don't like.  Of course, the problem is in this case, I
_like_ the combat system and its level of detail, just worried about how
slowly it'll run.

> That's the beauty of it all right! I've been playing it since version 1
> (migrated from the Fantasy Trip, designed by Steve J for Metagames and a
> direct ancestor to GURPS). Once the players and the Ref have the ground
> works anything is possible. Best game we had was a pickup involving the Old
> West and Space:1889 type of sci-fi. Didn't have a western world book then,
> nor one covering 1889, just plugged in the sci-fi elements for 1889 and
> everyone's "knowledge" of t.v. westerns, and used GURPS combat (which we all
> knew). One of the best off the cuff games we ever had!

That's the kind of leeway and freedom that I like, that I actually thrive
on!  :^)

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 06:15:52 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Cultural Resonance, the Future [LONG]

"Dear Editors,
I love your science fiction magazines, but this was called to my attention
today, and I thought I'd let you know!  Space travel is IMPOSSIBLE!  Now
and forever!  In space, there would be no pressure on the outside of the
ship.  But, for people to live, there would have to be pressure on the
inside of the ship.  The slightest bit of pressure on the inside of the
ship would push through it, because there is no equal and opposite pressure
to hold it together.  Just what would stop the ship from exploding?  And
the same goes for spacesuits too!

John B. Loeb
St. Paul's College
Covington, LA"

This is a letter that was in an old EC comic called "Weird Science" in the
early 1950s.  I was originally going to post it as a ha-ha to the list, but
it got me thinking about something else entirely.  Many of you who have
seen my diatribes against "silver jumpsuits and flying cars" visions of the
future may be surprised to know that I am a huge fan of "Weird Science" and
Buck Rogers and all of that good stuff.  In fact, I was a huge fan of Buck
Rogers growing up (not the horrid TV show, but the excellent comic strip)
although it was pretty much outdated before I was even born.  Although it
was laughable by my birth, it is amazing how many "predictions" that the
Buck Rogers strip made that eventually came true.  The sophistication of
EC's "Weird Science" is also fascinating.  Sure, they were off the mark,
and often implausible...  But they had such interesting and engrossing
stories.  In one story, we have a picture of Adam and Eve as remnants of
our dying race transported to the past to start the human race anew.  In
another, we have a tale of an interstellar scout who is dropped off to
survey a planet inhabited by human beings, who ends up becoming a
Jesus-like martyr.  I could go on with short synopses for awhile, and this
has nothing to do with my point or the direction I want to take this
letter.

And, the direction I want to take with this letter has nothing to do with
Traveller, at least on the surface.  It was Traveller that got me thinking
in this direction, and probably as I continue to think, I'll pop something
out of this thought train that is related to Traveller in some way.  Maybe
not right now, but eventually I probably will.  When I read the book
"Donnie Brasco" after seeing the excellent movie, I read the book, and I
was inspired to start thinking about organized crime in the Traveller
universe.  The Vargr were easy, just imagine the real mafia with your
finger on the fast forward button.  The other races still haven't come to
me.  But I digress, I'm wavering from my point again...

Which is "cultural resonance," as the title might indicate.  "What is
cultural resonance?" You might ask?  In the early 1950s, a guy named John
Loeb, who was probably a student at a college in Louisiana, felt the need
to point out that space travel was, and always would be, impossible.  His
argument wasn't well thought out.  I could have taken it apart with no
trouble when I was 6 or 7.  Anyone on this list could take it apart, or,
more importantly, could have taken it apart, even in the early 50s.

The Soviets would, in a relatively short time, prove this kid wrong by
shooting someone into orbit.  Then, the president of the United States
would predict that we'd have someone on the moon within 10 years.  An
entire nation worked toward this goal.  Kennedy was the sort of person that
could inspire people in that way.  His death cemented it.  His dream would
live on.  What a more fitting way to keep his legacy alive then to actually
pull it off...  And we did, as Americans, but even moreso, as a race.

Sure, the cynical among you will point out that we were in the midst of the
Cold War, that this was a grand, public way of saying, "Hey you Reds, our
Kung-Fu is better than your Kung-Fu.  How about a little golf?"  But there
was more to it than that.  Very few people really think twice about the
Lunar Landing.  Nobody seems to really care anymore.  The Soviet Union is
gone so what's the point?  Nobody even thinks of how difficult it was to go
from the 50s to the moon landing, the jump that happened there.  This is
one example of cultural resonance.  The world was ready, the political
situation was right, and a science-fiction dream was made into reality. 
For a fleeting moment, the future was in our hands.  Not my hands.  It
would be a few years before I would come along.  But the future was in our
hands, and there's a chill up my spine as I think about it.  What was. What
is. What could have been. What will be.  The time was right for the idea to
snowball, and it did.  This wasn't the only example of cultural resonance
at the time.  No, not by a long shot...

There were plenty of other snowballs rolling at the time.  The W.S.
Burroughs camp snowballed into the beatniks, which added steam to the folk
movement, still in its infancy.  Dylan one day plugged himself in at a folk
festival, and played on an electric guitar.  The folk die-hards screamed
bloody murder, but that single act influenced the music that would come
down the pike.  Dylan risked his reputation, his very livelihood, on a
gamble.  The whole thing exploded soon after that.  There were other
influences.  Chain stores were driving mom and pop stores out of business. 
Computers were turning everyone into mere numbers.  Automation was changing
the face of the world...  There was a war on the other side of the world
that made no sense to anybody, and a media that pointed out that blunt fact
with body counts every night.  Many people saw the future that was going to
be, and the future that could be instead, and the world was changed. 
People took the future into their hands for a few short years...

We'll back up one more time.  There were people who saw the way race
relations were, and saw the future, a future where children would be
deprived merely because of the color of their skin.  They saw the way the
world would go if they didn't do something.  The Reverend Martin Luther
King, a deeply religious and spiritual man, took it upon himself to do
something.  One man started a journey.  One man made one speech which made
everyone sit up and listen, and made everyone realize there was something
deeply wrong with the way things were, and allowed everyone to dream of the
way things could be, and the world changed because of it.  Once again, the
future was in our hands, and we at least, gave the dream a shot...

In all of these cases, there was cultural resonance.  Change can't occur if
nobody's ready for that change.  Some part of a culture, some part of a
race must be ready.  The idea has to simmer and boil, even if it's deep in
the subconscious.  The dreams have to take root first.

In this case, many of the dreams took place in cheap, tawdry
science-fiction first.  EC comics gave children stories, stories that would
sit in the back of their heads until the time was right, like an egg
waiting to hatch.  Between the images of many tentacled alien monsters,
with huge eyes and huge heads and huge teeth invading the world, there were
other images.  Images of a future in which things were brighter.  One
story, "A Close Shave" gives us a view of the future on our planet, where
the only thing that sets the aliens from Ganymede apart from Earthlings is
the amount of hair on their bodies.   Where Ganymedians shave their bodies
with radium razors and pass into human society so they can get decent jobs.
 Where an earth woman falls in love with a Ganymedian and tells him that
she, too, uses a radium razor to soothe his tortured soul.  She kisses life
in the society she knows goodbye, and moves with him to Ganymede...  It
makes you wonder what really caused the government investigation of comics,
the violence, or such bold messages.  Remember, this is all pre-1953.

And then there was Rod Serling.  He thrilled and chilled with the same kind
of stories that EC told, stories with a twist at the end.  Many were run of
the mill, but there were some that ribbed us gently and poked fun at our
fears, while others made us really think about ourselves and our
responsibilities as a nation, as a culture, as a race.  When people raised
their eyebrows and said, "Waitaminnit, you're teaching our kids that the
commies are people too," Serling smiled and said, "Nope, just good clean
sci-fi, with rocket ships, and ironic endings..."  Nowadays, that show, and
the Outer Limits are looked upon as classics despite their many flaws.  But
they primed a generation for change, set them up so that when the whole
thing would explode years down the line they'd be ready.  There was
something deep about these shows that makes them stunning even to this day.
 When I stayed up late to watch these shows on public TV and UHF stations,
I never realized what it was that drew me to them, or what drew the others
I'd meet that were touched by the same stories.

Lately, cultural resonance struck again with the internet.  The first
usenet-type newsgroups that weren't related to science or the military were
set up to talk about this wonderful new show Star Trek.  Gene Roddenberry's
future, dated and laughable now, created a very real ripple in the way the
world would be heading in a few decades.  His show tried, sometimes too
hard, to point out our own flaws and to make us believe the future could be
great.  On the bridge we had Kirk, strong and Kennedy-like, the "youngest
starship captain" leading his crew into the future.  And what a future it
was!  You had a black woman, an asian, a half/human alien hybrid, and
eventually a Russian!  Knock the franchise that Star Trek has become all
you want, but you have to wonder at how _big_ all this stuff had to seem at
the time.

Later, "cyberpunk" authors like Gibson and Sterling, and filmmakers like
Ridley Scott and James Cameron, and the Heavy Metal authors primed us for
other futures, some bright, some dark and twisted.  In the Alien series,
Weyland-Yutani is called "The Company" and they not only send the Nostromo
to the stars to fill its belly with ore, they make _beer_.  A
megacorporation.  Blade Runner shows us a gritty, overcrowded future on one
hand, but something deeper and more disturbing shines through.  A blimp
above Harrison Ford bellows out "A new future awaits you on the off-world
colonies!" and then describes that replicants will serve you there.  Later,
we find  out that replicants are people too, and Roy Batty's dying speech
is enough to almost bring tears to one's eyes, "I have seen things that you
people wouldn't believe..."  Gibson's future is one of massive
corporations, but it's also one where Rastas have a space station that, Mir
like, gets by on bubble-gum and coathangers.  A future where a Russian
space station gets a death sentence, threatening the life of the one
inhabitant who requires the zero-gee environment to live, and who is saved
by a group of ballooning nomads who stage their own flight into space. 
Again, I could go on, and lose sight of my point.

The Internet is an example of cultural resonance in action.  Look at where
it is now, as opposed to 10 years ago, see how far that it has come, and
how far it has brought us.  The cynical will disagree, but to those people
I point to Traveller, a dream and a game that even if unsupported would
manage to live on as a result of the Internet.  

Now, it's time to start tying this to Traveller, as tying this whole
rambling excuse for an essay just to science-fiction isn't really enough...

A few years ago, I went on a work sponsored trip to the Virgin Islands. 
While there, on one of the less crowded islands, I was in a hot tub with
several co-workers, including my ex-girlfriend.  My eyes went upwards at
one point and I saw the sky at night.  For the first time, I really saw the
sky that my ancestors saw.  Not just the big stars, not just the bright
ones, but the milky white powdery clumps of them in the sky.  I was filled
with complete awe, I mean really brimming with emotions.  I commented that
I could understand how people in the past saw gods in the sky, saw heroes,
and dragons, and other wonders.  For the first time, I really comprehended
how small and insignificant we are as individuals, as cultures, as a
planet.  Nobody else in the hot tub understood a word of what I was saying.
 It was really and truly frustrating.  I've never looked at the sky at
night the same way again.

Then, later on one night back home, I happened to see the moon.  For the
first time, I really comprehended it.  We had been there!  Not me, I wasn't
even born yet.  But _we_ as a race had taken a single, faltering step out
of the cradle.  We had been there!  And I think for once I understood the
tiniest fraction of what people must've felt when back in the late 60s
everybody watched and listened in wonder as the first words came back from
people _standing_ on the moon.  After that moment, I've never looked up at
the moon the same way again.

Then there's Mir...  I won't get into that in-depth, but Mir made another
change in the way I look at things.  Almost as if it was a signpost:
"Welcome to Space, Population: 4" or something like that.  Mir makes me
believe that maybe, despite all the political bullshit, despite everything
that's holding us back, there is something to dream about.  This New Years,
the astronauts on Mir wished everybody a "Happy New Year" on television. 
Nobody else at the New Year's Eve party I was at this year really saw what
it meant when my best friend and I raised our vodka glasses and gave each
other a hearty Russian "Cheers!" and downed our glasses.

When I was talking about technological conservatism in Traveller, the
subject of nanotech came up, and someone said, "It would change the way we
think, it's not like Jump Drive"...

Maybe we're jaded or something, but am I the only one that thinks Jump
Drive would totally revolutionize the way we think?  Am I the only one that
imagines Terra's first attempted Jump and our breathlessness as we wait for
some sign, some word of success...  Then, success!  It worked!  Each of
those stars has endless possibilities.  No one would ever look at the stars
the same way ever again.  

And then, the grim realization that other human beings from somewhere else
have already gone and taken this step, and they have their own empire...

Or, thousands of years earlier, the feelings that coursed through the
culture of the Vilani when the first ship came back from a successful jump.
 Can any of us imagine the changes that just _knowing_ that we can get to
the stars we see at night would bring?  The fundamental fabric of a society
would change so drastically that I personally can't even begin to imagine
it.  I look up the stars with a distant hope, "Maybe some day one of us
will bathe in the light of those distant suns!  Maybe we'll see all of the
beauty and wonder that's out there!" but then, the reality that, at the
moment, nobody really knows how to go FTL, and many think that it's
completely impossible.  And that hope drops like a stone into the pit of my
stomach.  That's when I usually realize that we may really not get too far
off of this rock, but the hope still sits at the back of my head.

Okay, I've rambled way too long.  Digest folks are going to want my head on
a stick.  If you've made it this far, I hope this essay was worth it.  I
admit, on the surface it doesn't seem directly related to Traveller. 
There's no stats, no gearheaded calculations or adventure seeds.  Just try
to imagine a culture coming to its senses after the Long Night, and a
leader who is capable of filling the hearts and minds of the people of the
Sylean Federation with the dreams of a manifest destiny.  The cultural
resonance of such a concept, and the changes it would bring!  The stars
will be ours!  The cynics can argue about it later, and deconstruct him,
and demonize him...  But the idea that _he_ looked at the stars in a way
that I can never imagine and managed to make his vision a reality is truly,
_truly_ awe-inspiring.

Sorry for taking up so much of everybody's time.  Just had to get that out.
 :^|

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:12:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

In mail you write:

>>Actually, to reiterate a commonly overlooked point, slug throwers, hell,
>>even my 1906-vintage Smith&Wesson work perfectly well in zero-gee or
>>vaccuum. gunpowder is a complete explosive, it has both oxidizer and
>>oxidant, and thus needs no oxygen.
>
> The cartridge might work but I'm not so shure about the mechanism, most
> lubricants wont work in vacuum and there is the problem of metal pieces
> spontaneously welding together. In short I don't think your 1906-vintage
> Smith&Wesson will work in vacuum, at least not reliably, but not for the
> lack of oxygen issue.

It'd take *prolonged* exposure to cause vacuum welding and you'd have
to *remove* the lubricants first. And it'd take a little while for the
lubricants to turn to gum (or to 'shellac').

In open space there's a bigger problem. In shadow, that gun will cool
off pretty fast. Wanna try firing a gun when the steel parts are at
- -200 F? If it isn't too badly jammed to work, it may explode (at those
temps steel is *damn* brittle).

But with the right lubricants and either different materials, or care
taken to keep the gun at a reasonable temperature, you should be able
to do just fine.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:17:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

In mail you write:

> Lasers have the disadvantage that fog, smoke, rain, and even mildly
> reflective surfaces disrupt and deflect the beam.  Most beams, will be
> traceable to the firer's position, either by the beam itself, or flashes as
> the beam destroys stray dust particles in the atmosphere.

No need to worry about dust. You see, at weapons level intenities
(above about 1 MW/cm^2) *air* undergoes ionization breakdown. That
means that chunks of the air in the beam turn into plasma, which glows
as it recombines into "normal" gases. I've seen photos of a beam inside
a lab and it looks like a cheap special effect! 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:05:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

In mail you write:

>>Not only is he using the gun for manuevering, but he's picking targets
>>to cause the most damage! Sure, that means that his path zig-zags a
>>lot, but that just makes him harder to hit!
>>
>><grin>
>
> How much more massive is the shooter (in Vaccsuit?) than the bullet he is
> firing? Take this factor and divide the muzzle velocity with it to reach a
> quick and dirty delta V per shot. Say the guy weighs 100 kg, bullet weighs
> 10 grams and muzzle velocity is 500 m/s. This give us about 5 cm/s in
> deltaV per shot.

I think it was supposed to be something more like a .44 automag.
Something with a killer recoil.

The guy *wasn't* in a vaccsuit. The base was a sort of "domed city"
arrangement. 

I'd guess that the bullets were around 30 grams *minimum*. And we'll
keep your 500 m/s muzzle velocity. But I'd drop his mass to about 75
kilos (but all muscle!). 

75*v=500*.03
75*v=15
v=.2

Ok, it's only .2 m/s. 

> If 5 cm/s per shot is all the zigzagging he'll muster then I'd say he's
> dead before he reaches the escape. The problem of recoil in zero-G is IMHO
> extremely overrated in RPGs just as brawling and wrestling is underrated.

Well, most of the folks in the pirate base didn't have zero-g skill.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 10:12:01 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Displacement tons

I was flipping through my old MT books an I notice that the displacement
ton switched from 13.5 kl to 14 kl in FFS1.  I was wondering why they
did that?

It is interesting to note that the MT dT can be derived as half of a 3
meter (10') cube while the FFS dT amounts to a 2 meter square with a
deck height of 3.5 meters.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 10:48:15 -0400
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #367

> 
> Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 22:32:05
> From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #365
> 
> >
> >Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 12:49:17 EST
> >From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
> >Subject: MGs
> >
> >Maybe its just me, but _I_ would take this rule as a sign that the designers
> >didn't _intend_ for people to be able to design hand-held meson guns below TL
> >15...
> >
> >Then again, rules always seem to get in the way of some peoples' fun. 
> >
> >Loren Wiseman
> >
> 
> Loren,
> 
> Does that mean you would heartily disapprove at my 15 cm range Barbie-scale
> Particle Accelerator Pistol ?
> 
> >------------------------------


HE may disapprove but my 3 1/2 year old daughter would LOVE to have one !
Especially if Barbie could use it.  To me x-wife's disdain Morgan loves
Barbie stuff.. Barbie dresses, computer programs, dolls...... She is also
into guns. Must get it from daycare. I did not teach her about them yet.

I just asked Morgan if she would like a Barbie scale Particle Accelerator
Pistol and she gave me a BIG GRIN and shook her head YES! 

The best thing about kids is that all things are possible and practical !
They do not have any disbelief that needs to be suspended!

Can we implant one of those in my nose?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #368
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, April 5 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 369



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: jump drive exit points
Re: Speaking of newbie questions, I have one.
Re: [T98#353] RFC: Lasers/Fiber Optics
Re: The death of IG
Barbie Particle Pistol  BPP-15
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #365
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: Displacement tons
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: Artificial Intelligence
T 4.1 Draft
Why automate the phones? (was Re: Lengthy technology essay)
Re: Baby Meson Guns
Tech conservatism/ways of thinking
Re: Displacement tons
Re: Traveller's future

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 06:13:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: jump drive exit points

In mail you write:

>>At last! A formula for "accuracy" of a jump.
> Shadow wrote
>>Just remember that the *time* variance in the jump means that the
>>planet will have moved with respect to the plotted exit point (at 30
>>km/sec an hour difference gives about 108,000 km. A day gives 2.6
>>*million* km difference).
>
> That's why you match velocities with your target planet before you jump
> (what Marc called a "standing jump"; it's reasonable to assume that your
> exit point moves with time at the velocity your ship had when it entered.

No, remember that you exit jump with the velocity you entered it with.
That's why a "standing jump" is a good idea. It minimizes the "extra"
accelerating you need to do.

Having your exit point move is a bit weird. 

> Mar also wrote
>
>>> Usually, it is 100 diameters out from the destination world, on a line 
> which
>>> reaches back to the origin point.
>>> Or, the ship can come out at a plotted point, at the point with a 
> variation 
>>> of
>>> +D-D times 50,000 km, along the line between origin and destination.
>
> Which has somewhat more interesting consequences. What happens when the
> line between you and your target world crosses the target star's 100-diameter
> limit? Can you pass through or do you have to exit as soon as you cross
> the sphere? That would result in times of a few months each year when 
> travel times between planets get a couple of days longer.

According to an earlier post by Marc you exit when your "course"
crosses *anything's* 100 diameter limit. That's another reason to go
with the idea of a "fixed" exit point. That way you it's *much* easier
to tell if a ship's course intersects a 100 diameter "sphere".

BTW, if we allow for the "ecliptic" plane of the star systems to be
tilted with respect to each other, then the odds of intercepting the
star's limit go *way* down.

Do you happen to know if there's any "reliable" data on the axial tilt
distributions of stars?

> Does your destination have to be at a 100-diameter limit, or can you jump
> into free space (in which case your exit point can be pretty much anywhere,
> not just along the origin=>desitnation world line...)

You can jump to anywhere as long as it *isn't* inside a 100 diameter limit.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 05:42:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Speaking of newbie questions, I have one.

In mail you write:

> At 08:29 AM 4/3/98 , Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> So 100 diameters from a size 8 planet which orbits at 30 km/sec (how
> typical is that?) is 1,280,000 km, which can be covered in 5 hours by a 1G
> ship.  It sounds as if the results of being 1 day early or late is an
> additional 10 hours in transit.

30 km/sec is *probably* fairly typical. But a lot depends on the star
size and how far out the planet is.


> Now my physics is rusty to the point of laughable.  The above may be wrong.
>  I question if it is linear.  I keep wanting to see this as 2.5 hours
> acceleration, 2.5 hours decel (we're trying to land on the planet, not
> crack it open).  So my question for the number crunching types is "Given
> that we have a constant acceleration, does doubling (or tripling) distance
> double (or triple) time to destination?"

It's not linear. What you do is use the formula and figure out how long
it takes the ship to cover *half* the distance at the given
acceleration. That gets you to the half way point. You'll be
*decelerating* at the same rate over the second half. So you take the
time for halfway and double it.

Here are the formulas (D in meters, A in meters/sec^2, T in seconds)
These are all for going from a standing start, and *not* stopping.

D = .5*A*T^2	<- when you know the time & accel and want distance
T = sqrt(2D/A)	<- when you know the accel and distance and want time
A = 2D/T^2	<- when you know the distance and time and want accel

V = A*T	<- when you know the time and accel and want the final velocity
T = V/A	<- when you know the final velocity and accel and want time
A = V/T	<- when you know the final velocity and time and want accel

> I'm also wondering about the maximum velocity of a constant 1G acceleration
> ship.

There isn't one. Or rather, the final velocity depends solely on how
long it accerelates. So if it only has fuel to accelerate for 6 hours,
then the final velocity is:
(1 g = 10 m/s^2, 1 hour = 3600 s)

V = A * T
V = 10 * 6 * 3600
V = 216000

So it'd get to 216 km/s. 

> This just occurred to me:  I'd pretty much exclude by fiat the possibility
> of arriving 12 hours early and finding that the planet is exactly where the
> ship comes out (although this might do something interesting for the chap
> who is trying to completely destroy a world).

Remember, the ship *can't* exit jump any closer than 100 diameters from
the planet. If the results would have it exit closer, then it exits at
the 100 diameter limit instead, but the time of exit doesn't change.

> I'm probably going to do something with a near miss, though.  A ship
> arriving 1,280 km from the planet would set off all sortsa red alerts both
> in-system and aboard ship.

Again, no can do. You can't get closer than 100 diameters in jump.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 07:41:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [T98#353] RFC: Lasers/Fiber Optics

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:09:24 -0500, warmind@juno.com (james a
> clem) wrote:
>
>>I'd like your input on something.  I am toying with using a fiber optic
>>system on ships to allow a centrally located (and thus protected) laser
>>generator to discharge through focal arrays placed about the hull.  This
>>would allow smaller ships to mount fewer lasers, and the focal arrays
>>would use only small turrets compared with the standards and still get
>>coverage they might need.  I know little about fiber optics, so please
>>anyone out there comment.
>
> I asked this question of my roommate (a B.S. Physics), in the
> form "Fiber Optic Conduit - Laser - Discharge - Possible?".  He
> indicated that he does not see it as possible; if the laser can
> be conducted, it probably would be too weak to do anything; if
> it's strong enough to do anything, it will probably vaporize the
> conduit.
>
> Now, that's strictly an issue of heat dissipation; if you can
> sensibly handwave a conduit material that's 99.99999....%
> efficient at dumping waste heat, or if you can cryofreeze the
> conduits, you might be able to pull it off.  Or, if you have a
> massively high temperature superduperconductor.  But those will
> tend to unbalance things somehow; someone will always figure out
> a use for it that wasn't forseen.

The simplest "unanticipated" use for it will be as a "coating" on
starship hulls to render them impervious to laser fire. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 06:10:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The death of IG

In mail you write:

> At 09:30 AM 4/3/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>When Imperium Games dies is that going to be the end of this list as well?
>
> No.  This list is run off of Multi-Player Games Network, and dates back to
> the dim and distant past of the Internet, when 386/50 was a great computer
> system and Win3.1 was an upgrade.

Wanna buy my copy of Windows 1.1?

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 10:51:14 -0400
From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
Subject: Barbie Particle Pistol  BPP-15

Think that I wanted to type Particle Pistol.

Having trouble with the loss of an hours worth of sleep.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:59:43 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #365

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #365


>>Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:07:01 -0500
>>From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
>>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #352
>>I'm afraid I would have to differ with you on MaCarthur's military
standing.
>>He lost fewer people (all services, all countries) in the Pacific campaign
>>than was lost at D-Day alone in Europe.
>
>Dougout Doug was also in charge of the Philipines in 1941. He was the
>General ... he must take responsibility for the readiness and preparedness
>of the forces under his command.


Uhhh,  he was a Field Marshall in the Phillipine Army until recalled to
active duty (after Pearl Harbor I believe).  He had been retired from the
U.S. Army for over 4 years.  He got no supplies, no reinforcements, and his
delaying actions are credited with giving the U.S. at a minimum of 6 months
to get their war machine in gear.  Adm. Yamamoto spent almost 3 months
looking for him and has been quoted as saying MacArthur would be his worst
nightmare to face because of his knowledge of the Pacific rim.  The "Dougout
Doug" title came in Korea not WWII.  There are numerous accounts of
MacArthur walking up to and beyond the "safe lines" to personnally inspect
conditions on the ground.  Several times he came under direct fire from
snipers and on one of these occassions (while everyone else was ducking and
covering) calmly walked back toward his HQ calling his officers to him to
explain some fine point that he had noticed.  These are documented by a
number of eye witnesses.  He was born in 1880 and during the 2nd WW he would
have been 61-65 years old.  I bring this up for your the next point about
Korea and the "Dougout Doug" moniker.

>
>You might also check out some of the totally unneccessary operations in the
>South-West Pacific in 1945 that Macarthur authorised.

I did and all I can say about some of these is, looking back from 50 years
away is an easy thing to do.  We have no way of knowing what motivated
everything that he did.  I also remind you that I started this by saying
that I would rather have served under MacArthur rather than  others is due
to my personal desire to live through the war and the odds were much better
with him.  I never said he didn't make mistakes just fewer of them.
>
>>Sounds pretty smart to me.  He also
>>sorted out a little skirmish in a country called Korea that has had the
>>heads of quite a number of Generals world wide nodding in approval and with
>>some small amount of awe.  Maybe you've heard of the Pusan landings.  As a
>
>Yes. You mean that landing onto a defended, built-up area with 12' tides
>and easily minable channels that where the knocking out of a handful of
>landing craft could have crippled the entire landing ? The one with an
>undefended beach 50km away with none of these problems ?
>
>The *only* redeeming feature of the Pusan landings was that they worked.


Funny, IF it had failed it would have been a blundering old man making
stupid mistakes.  As it is, historians consider it to be one of the more
brilliant moves ever made by any general (depending of course on who you
read and how they skew their information, as you obviously believe that mine
is.)

>
>Secondly, his illegal and *incredibly* provactive authorisation of attacks
>on China brought the Chinese into the war, and turned what was a nice
>little win for the UN forces into a slugfest.


Don't disagree with this at all.  Totally blew that one as far as I'm
concerned.  Damn shame too because he actually had the war won (IMO).  Could
it have been faulty intelligence, who knows, but having served in the
Military Intelligence Branch for more than 20 years I certainly belive its a
possibility.

>
>Thirdly, his complete discounting of the possibility of Chinese
>intervention led to the adoption of a advance rate and posture that left
>the UN forces strung out and badly vulnerable to counter-attack.


Read comment to #2.
>
>He should have been cashiered over the Philipines, and shot over Korea.


Getting a little testy aren't we.  He was barely in charge in the
Phillipines when they fell (read my comment above) and he WAS fired over
Korea.

 Now to expand "Dugout Doug",  he was 70 years old when he went to Korea and
had been in the director's chair in Japan for almost 5 years.  He had
multiple ailments some of which were arthritis in his hips and knees and
failing eyesight.  Here he was a 5 star general taking orders from a man
that was a Captain when he was a Brigidier (1918).  I believe that he
reacted to Truman poorly and SHOULD have taken his orders from the
Commander-In-Chief of the armed forces.  Again, who's to say what was on his
mind at that time, was he tired of babying a bunch of politicians when he
felt his duty was to rectify what he himself admitted was a gross error in
judgement (the Chinese response).  Did he feel that Washington was not
trying to win the war and that ALL of his training insisted that winning was
the only choice?  Man I don't know but I certainly believe that all in all
he WAS and excellent military leader, a half way decent tactician and
obviously a bueracrat with outstanding accomplishments.

 Do I think of Cleon in the same light as MacArthur, hmm tough question to
answer.  I suppose I do as their lives seem to be in some strange way on a
parrallel course.  God, I'm sorry for rambling on and I'll stop now and put
the target back on my chest.
>
>>soldier I believe I would have rather served under Mac than Patton and (God
>>forgive me) Monty.  I honestly can't think of one WWI general I would have
>>liked to serve under, they all used some type of "Human Wave" tactics. Just
>>the thought of this scares me to death.
>
>Brusilov and Monash, to name two.


They didn't use the human wave tactics, hmmm, have to read up on that
>
>>Thom Harris (not a historian, just a reader and a retired soldier)
>
>Ian Whitchurch

Thom Harris back at you....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 19:45:34 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

In article <v02140b06b14a693c0c91@[192.121.125.201]>,
anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) wrote:
>>Actually, to reiterate a commonly overlooked point, slug throwers, hell,
>>even my 1906-vintage Smith&Wesson work perfectly well in zero-gee or
>>vaccuum. gunpowder is a complete explosive, it has both oxidizer and
>>oxidant, and thus needs no oxygen.
>
>The cartridge might work but I'm not so shure about the mechanism, most
>lubricants wont work in vacuum and there is the problem of metal pieces
>spontaneously welding together. In short I don't think your 1906-vintage
>Smith&Wesson will work in vacuum, at least not reliably, but not for the
>lack of oxygen issue.

Harry Harrison solved this in "Star-Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers"
(or something like that) where his Seaton-esque hero utters the
immortal line " Wipe off the lubricant so the mechanism won't
seize in the vacuum of space"

Frankie

Frank G. Pitt | When in doubt, wash | fun:   frankie@mundens.gen.nz
Wellington    |   (Orlando)         |        frankie@paradise.net.nz 
New Zealand   |                     | profit: fpitt@nz1.ibm.com
    

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 09:35:43 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Displacement tons

At 10:12 am 4/5/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I was flipping through my old MT books an I notice that the
displacement
>ton switched from 13.5 kl to 14 kl in FFS1.  I was wondering why
they
>did that?

	A displacement ton has always been, since CT, the volume of one
metric ton (1,000kg) of liquid hydrogen. If you don't start quibbling
about exactly what temperature, that's about 14 cubic meters or
kiloliters. And CT was originally created without any deckplans or
layouts. People noticed that, using the standard 1.5m squares, two
squares at a height of 3m was 13.5 kl, fairly close to 14, and used
that for drawing up deckplans. MT simply made it explicit by
redefining the disp ton as 13.5kl. FF&S returned to the origins and
put it back to 14 kl, but recognized that it would be nice to have it
be an even number of squares for simple deckplan drawing. Since the
TNE grid was 2m instead of 1.5, all that was necessary was to bump
the ceiling from 3m to 3.5m


>
>It is interesting to note that the MT dT can be derived as half of a
3
>meter (10') cube while the FFS dT amounts to a 2 meter square with a
>deck height of 3.5 meters.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 08:51:23 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

At 11:17 PM 4/4/98 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Lasers have the disadvantage that fog, smoke, rain, and even mildly
>> reflective surfaces disrupt and deflect the beam.  Most beams, will be
>> traceable to the firer's position, either by the beam itself, or flashes as
>> the beam destroys stray dust particles in the atmosphere.
>
>No need to worry about dust. You see, at weapons level intenities
>(above about 1 MW/cm^2) *air* undergoes ionization breakdown. That
>means that chunks of the air in the beam turn into plasma, which glows
>as it recombines into "normal" gases. I've seen photos of a beam inside
>a lab and it looks like a cheap special effect! 

I've seen those kinds of shots also, and my first thought was "I know where
you are, you're dead."

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 98 16:43 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence

Moin Leonard Erickson,

> I'd say that the problems are long training time *and* the fact that
> the brain *keeps* learning. So even though you can copy a "starter",
> due to the inherently "limited" experience of the robot brain it has a
> much stronger tendency than humans to "learn the wrong lesson". This
> *severely* limits their usefulness.

	the same is true with humans or dogs, e.g. most dogs have some
	anoying missbehavoir, just because this kind of missbehavior is
	rewarded by humans with attention. But lets try to devide the
	concepts behind AI's we find in traveller :

	TL:7-9	computer linked systems

		here we'll find a lot of "cheaters" starting with Elisa
		up to chess programs, voice recocnisations and expert
		systems. Those systems are at limited scope, and the AI
		is not what common sense would call real intelligence.

	TL:10-12 dynamic linked systems

		large expert systems (like Cyc) are well known, small
		real AIs (neuronal networks) enhance functionality, most
		times for human interactions like voice and image
		recocnisation. But true synaptics are still a problem.

	TL:13-16 holographic linked systems

		Computers allow emulation of large synaptic networks.
		At TL:15 computes becomes "alive" in MT/RefsCompanion
		and at TL:16 the neural network is 50% of the computer.

	TL:17+	synaptic linked systems

		Computers are now not longer silicoid, but grown by
		a geeneered cell. They have real intelligence and
		are imune to virus.

	TL:10-16 AI-Virus enhanced computers

		The cimbeline chip lives as a "parasite" on dynamic
		and holographic systems. The computer only enhances the
		Deyo as storage. The Deyo controls and provides real
		neural intelligence as a silicoid lifeform.

	Problems are well known especialy when breakthroughs occur.
	The 10% synaptic breakthrough of Dover Gabe caused the Shudusham
	Concorde, and the 50% synaptic breakthrough showed problems
	in the Kinunir. I think that quite a lot of free traders preferd
	the old dynamic system over the fancy Tl:16 AI, even if they
	could afford the later, just because the bugs are fixed thousand
	of years ago by Vilani programmers.

	Back to real life :

	Its posible to implement the same number of neurons an ant has
	(10k neurons) on a 4dx33/8MB. Mores law would give us 30 years
	until we can implement the same number of neurons a human has
	(10 terra neurons). But processing power is not the main problem
	with neuronal networks. While its now possible to implement large
	neural networks, training of large networks shows imposible. 
	The larges neuronal networks currently in use are 3 layer kohonen
	networks of 8x8 up to 12x12. Its simple to implement larger networks,
	but training shows impossible. The evolutionary step we needed for
	our brain, would take millions of years using the complete internet
	just to train an ant. Of course we can cheat, and take a look at
	the original to see that walking "intelligence" is build by small
	networks inside the legs. These networks are small enough to train,
	and so we have walking 6 legged machines with neural networks at
	Tl:8, but we still does'nt have an ant.

	In this case the 50% synaptic at TL:16 could be quite true.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 12:13:08 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: T 4.1 Draft

There's been a lot of talk about Marc's T4.1 draft on the list.  Has 
this been posted anywhere?

James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 18:25:44 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <PhilK@btinternet.com>
Subject: Why automate the phones? (was Re: Lengthy technology essay)

> > From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

<snip>
> > So it wasn't a matter of what it cost to automate, it was a matter of
> > automation was the *only* way to keep the system running after it
> > reached a certain size.

> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
> As I said, this book from the 50s stated that their R&D was devised for
> another reason.  It was from Bell Labs, and I'll believe it.  Once they
> started to implement automation, the amount of lines that they could add
> grew, and the phone system grew with it.

The following is telecoms folklore, it may well be inaccurate.

The first electro-mechanical telephone exchange was invented towards
the beginning of this century by a Mr Strowager (spelling?), An American
undertaker.
It seems that there were two undertaking firms in the area, but his
competitor's wife was the local telephone operator and was able to
discover "business opportunities" before there were widely known by
overhearing conversations.
So Strowager built a mechanical device to replace the operator.
:-)
I would imagine that the research by Bell in the 1950's is what led
to the electronic, processor controlled electronic and digital exchanges.
These would give the prospect of better billing systems.
The problem is, once you have every woman in the world working 24 hours a
day as switchboard operators, you then need every man in the world to work
out the bills.
Of course, if it wasn't for all the children, there'd be no one left to
make the phone calls :-)

- -- 
- - --
  Philk@btinternet.com (don't blame BT for any of this, they only pay me:)
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo
  The true meaning of "Dark Horror" in Call of Cuthulu is not appreciated
  until you face Ewoks riding Gaint Space Hamsters.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 12:47:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Baby Meson Guns

>Subject: Re: Baby Meson Guns and PAWs
...
>The problem is when you go upscale slightly, to artillery size weapons. As
>an example, I'd cite 'The Solution', a TL11 Meson Artillery piece, which I
>posted a while ago.
...
>We need to make them illegal.

  The original Striker game design sequences _started_ being vehicle portable
at TL 15. MCr 10, 15 tons, 15 KL, six crew, and 250 mw input. Presumably the
six crew are to ensure accurate targeting among other things; they make the
volume requirements high enough to require a dedicated vehicle with serious
armour envelope issues; see an old JTAS (15 or so?) for stats.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 13:25:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking

Hello,
>When I was talking about technological conservatism in Traveller, the
>subject of nanotech came up
...
  As a number of people have pointed out, there are a number of techs
you can add (or not), but that at a certain point the entire Trav universe
has to be re-written or scrapped. A largely tech independent one is the
production possibilities that would arise with even HG efficiency fusion
power (14 KL ~ 85mw output/TL 9) - you can try it (I have) but no reasonable
model you get is recognizable as Traveller. You can ignore this or re-write
your background (I've tried both, with mixed results).

>Maybe we're jaded or something, but am I the only one that thinks Jump
>Drive would totally revolutionize the way we think?

  No. I hope you don't think that, either. OC, any change to the Trav
universes Terrans mindset occurred around -2000, or around three millenia
ago. Around 1000 BCE, the use of horses for cavalry mounts was not yet
practical. I doubt that horses are relevent to the working lives of many 
of the TML'ers.

  The last SF campaign I ran had nothing to do with Traveller except the
determination to model everything as well as I could, without resorting
to science fantasy BS. I had players who were pissed that the TL 9-10
interstellar society couldn't produce energy weapons as side-arms for
civilian use; he didn't mind that contragrav didn't exist.

>Or, thousands of years earlier, the feelings that coursed through the
>culture of the Vilani when the first ship came back from a successful jump.

  Sure: "You know, if this hyperspace thing is really a constructed artifact,
we're going to owe the damnedest amount for patent infringement". They _knew_
they were selling out to Cthulhu...

> Can any of us imagine the changes that just _knowing_ that we can get to
>the stars we see at night would bring? 

  Not really. OTOH, I already accept the fact that the species can go to
other stars if we really care to make the effort (sub-light, OC).

  One has to ask what huge changes in most peoples world-views were
occasioned by the discovery of; sea routes to the Far East; the New
World; economical steamliners; railroads; airliners; and, space travel.
Besides the people I game with (and not all of those) and SF literature
fans, I know very few people much care that space travel now exists, and
this in a group that's well read, well educated, and comfortable enough
to be able to consider such impracticalities.

...
>stomach.  That's when I usually realize that we may really not get too far
>off of this rock, but the hope still sits at the back of my head.

  The militarization of the extra-orbital system may save us. Or, of course,
we may not be saved.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:18:42 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Displacement tons

At 10:12 AM 05/04/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I was flipping through my old MT books an I notice that the displacement
>ton switched from 13.5 kl to 14 kl in FFS1.  I was wondering why they
>did that?
>
>It is interesting to note that the MT dT can be derived as half of a 3
>meter (10') cube while the FFS dT amounts to a 2 meter square with a
>deck height of 3.5 meters.
>
IIRC the CT displacement tons was 14 kL, so maybe they were feeling retro.
TNE went to 2m squares for movement and deckplans, and 14 kL fits this much
better than 13.5 kL.

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 23:25:29 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Traveller's future

Dave Golden wrote:
> At 12:05 am 4/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
> > David J. Golden wrote:
> > > I guess my wishlist really is a wishlist, because at the
> > > top of it is
> > >
> > > GDW2 (Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank Chadwick ...)
> >
> > Well, if you're going to say that, I'd have to vote for DGP2,
> > then.
>
> Can't argue too much with that, either. Maybe a GDW2-DGP2
> collaboration ... assuming you mean the original DGP authors
> from MT, not whoever owns DGP now.

Maybe that should be DGP3 ... Roger Sanger was DGP2 even though
he hasn't published anything yet.  Does anyone know if he still
owns it?

To GDW2 I'd add Willian H Keith (for the artwork).



> and a tall, single, blonde to play with ... whooops, that's
> got nothing to do with Traveller <G>.

You take the blonde, I'll have the red-head.



Regards PLST
"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things." - Dan Quayle
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #369
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, April 6 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 370



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking
Re: Traveller's future
Re: Displacement tons
Re: GURPS & Traveller
Re: jump drive exit points
Re: Barbie's Own Particle Pistol
Re: Viliani emperors?
Re: jump drive exit points
TRAVELLER book: _Gateway to the Stars_
Re: jump drive exit points
Re: TRAVELLER book: _Gateway to the Stars_
Can We Trust These People?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:44:02 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking

> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
> 
>   As a number of people have pointed out, there are a number of techs
> you can add (or not), but that at a certain point the entire Trav universe
> has to be re-written or scrapped. A largely tech independent one is the
> production possibilities that would arise with even HG efficiency fusion
> power (14 KL ~ 85mw output/TL 9) - you can try it (I have) but no reasonable
> model you get is recognizable as Traveller. You can ignore this or re-write
> your background (I've tried both, with mixed results).

In this case, I wasn't arguing against techno-conservatism <surprise!> I
was just putting the cultural effects of J-Drive into perspective.

>   No. I hope you don't think that, either. OC, any change to the Trav
> universes Terrans mindset occurred around -2000, or around three millenia
> ago. Around 1000 BCE, the use of horses for cavalry mounts was not yet
> practical. I doubt that horses are relevent to the working lives of many 
> of the TML'ers.

I'm not sure that I exactly follow this.  Could you please explain this a
little more?

>   Sure: "You know, if this hyperspace thing is really a constructed artifact,
> we're going to owe the damnedest amount for patent infringement". They _knew_
> they were selling out to Cthulhu...

I was thinking more along the lines of a "manifest destiny" of the stars.

Well, okay...  Not exactly what I was looking for, but an interesting point
anyway.  How many folks in the Traveller universe suspect that Jump is an
artifact, and is it _really_?

>   Not really. OTOH, I already accept the fact that the species can go to
> other stars if we really care to make the effort (sub-light, OC).

The difference being that we could load up an expensive ship for an
extremely long voyage, and possibly never know if it succeeded or not.  The
first interstellar jump would likely be a month or so from the first
crackling J-Space penetration <it crackles IMTU :^) > to the safe return of
the ship.

>   One has to ask what huge changes in most peoples world-views were
> occasioned by the discovery of; sea routes to the Far East; the New
> World; economical steamliners; railroads; airliners; and, space travel.
> Besides the people I game with (and not all of those) and SF literature
> fans, I know very few people much care that space travel now exists, and
> this in a group that's well read, well educated, and comfortable enough
> to be able to consider such impracticalities.

We're not on the same wavelength here.  You just pointed out exactly what I
mean.  Someone wouldn't have to consider the impracticalities, because it
wouldn't be an impracticality.  When eyes turned to the sky, whether the
brain they belonged to cared about space travel or not, the fact that _we_
could go there would change things entirely.  


>   The militarization of the extra-orbital system may save us. Or, of course,
> we may not be saved.

Of course, the commercialization of space might still get us out there too
(several companies are building a fully commercial launch pad in Florida, I
think.  Initially, it'll be used to send satellites into space quickly and
efficiently, moreso than NASA.  There has been talk of space tourism as
well).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 16:57:14 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller's future

At 11:25 pm 4/5/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Dave Golden wrote:
>> At 12:05 am 4/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> > David J. Golden wrote:
>> > > I guess my wishlist really is a wishlist, because at the
>> > > top of it is
>> > >
>> > > GDW2 (Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank Chadwick ...)
>> >
>> > Well, if you're going to say that, I'd have to vote for DGP2,
>> > then.
>>
>> Can't argue too much with that, either. Maybe a GDW2-DGP2
>> collaboration ... assuming you mean the original DGP authors
>> from MT, not whoever owns DGP now.
>
>Maybe that should be DGP3 ... Roger Sanger was DGP2 even though
>he hasn't published anything yet.  Does anyone know if he still
>owns it?
>
>To GDW2 I'd add Willian H Keith (for the artwork).
>
>
>
>> and a tall, single, blonde to play with ... whooops, that's
>> got nothing to do with Traveller <G>.
>
>You take the blonde, I'll have the red-head.

	Share and share alike?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 19:40:44 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Displacement tons

Maybe they did it because CT (Highguard, and book 2) used 14 cu. meters per
ton. They also used 1.5 meter squares for their deckplans.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 18:36:02 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS & Traveller

- --=====================_891844562==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Date: Sat, 04 Apr 98 15:17:50 -0600
>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Subject: Re: GURPS & Traveller
>
>On 04/04/98 at 07:11 AM,  Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> said:
>
...
>>>I've never been fond of totally point-purchase OR totally random character
>>>generation, but I do *like* the develop during a career method that is the
>>>soul (to steal an expression from the absent HH) of Traveller.
>
><snip>
>
>>>Yes, it's much too easy to get bogged down.  That's why I have been asking
>>>about something called Career Templates over on the GURPS list. If I
>>>understand this concept right, they are the basic requirements for careers,
>>>*partially* created characters.  If someone whats to play a Starship Pilot
>>>with a Merchant background, they could take Templates for each and have 3/4
>>>of their character finished right there...the rest is the customization
>>>needed to make the character uniquely theirs.
>
>>Agreed.  This also harks back to the TNE careers mechanic:  instead of
>>tables of random skills, each 'career' is a template for four years of
>>experience in a given field.  The players choose a set number of skills
>>from lists associated with the career, while also accumulating advantages
>>(ship's DMs, contacts, initiative bonuses) of the appropriate types.  I
>>would love to see this mechanic translated to GURPS - it seems a good
>>middle ground between classic Traveller services and GURPS character
>>templates (as I understand them).
>
>Loren, do you hear that?  I'm with Christopher here, templates similar to
>the TNE careers would/could/(I'd say)should go into GURPS Traveller.
>Please, include, at least, the most common careers, and give some direction
>for how to build others. 
>
>I'd argue for the following sort of Template (at minimum):
> 1. A Career package with minimum requirements for Stats/Ads/Disads/Skills.
> 2. A list of optional Stats/Ads/Disads/Skills that fit into that career.
> 3. A requirement that X points be spent in the optional list.
>
>I'd *rather* have something almost exactly like TNE's, but I'm a stumped by
>how to do it with GURPS.
>
>Now, *I'm*, personally, going to want some randomness in chargen, but
>Marc's T4.1 draft (and all the other versions) can give me that. ;->
>
>Eris
>

[Note:  I am still waiting for my playtest password, so I have not read
whatever Loren Wiseman has already posted on GURPS Traveller character
generation.  What follows is derived from my experiences with both systems.]

I've been thinking about this since Eris posted his reply.  One fundamental
difference between GURPS and Traveller (in all its versions) is the
philosophy behind player-characters.  GURPS sets out to create characters
from heroic literature (even if those characters start out as apparently
ordinary people - e.g. Luke Skywalker).  They are designed and balanced,
complete with dramatic abilities and tragic flaws, to participate in a
narrative structure.  Traveller attempts to model the career progression of
(more-or-less) ordinary people, although people who form a sort of science
fiction "jet set" - the "travellers" of the title - who then have
adventures essentially as part of their job descriptions.

Game-wise, it boils down to this:  newly generated GURPS characters (within
the same campaign) are generally equivalent to one another in capability,
though the specifics usually do vary.  Traveller characters, on the other
hand, vary greatly even within the same campaign, based on the number of
4-year terms they have served before starting play.  This effects not only
numbers of skills, but starting resources (especially starships), rank, and
status.

There are two primary game mechanics in Traveller preventing every group
from turning into the Enterprise crew from Star Trek VI (hyper-skilled,
influential, overweight, and in desperate need of retirement).  The first
is a set of random factors (survival rolls, reenlistment/ continuation
rolls) that artificially terminate the character generation process at some
point.  The second, and more important, is a draconian aging roll, which
begins to erode the character's physical attributes beginning at age 38
(around the 5th 4-year term).  It's no coincidence that most
player-characters I have seen in 20 years of Traveller campaigns are 30-34
years old, unless the player deliberately continued for a 5th or 6th term
seeking retirement benefits or that last promotion to Captain.

And there's the rub:  even if we do come up with an adequate,
career-term-based character generation system for GURPS Traveller, the
GURPS aging system will not provide this counterbalancing force.  Even in
basic GURPS, aging rolls begin at 50 years; higher tech levels can easily
push this to 70 or 90.

The attachmed file is a sample of what I mean. It is not even a draft, but
more of a sketch of a possible solution.  It derives from Traveller: the
New Era, and the notions that GURPS characters do arrive at their initial
statistics through some sort of growth process, and that, within limits, it
is not strictly necessary that all characters have exactly the same
starting point totals.  [The skills listed are from my abbreviated skills
list for GURPS Traveller.  They work just as standard GURPS skills, but
there are only 75 instead of 200+ and the names have been adjusted to
Traveller terminology.  You can safely ignore the specifics, and still get
the ideas I'm driving at.]



- --=====================_891844562==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Sample.txt"

CHARACTER GENERATION

Initial

All characters are initially constructed at age 18 with 120 points, and
at most -5 points in quirks (total: 125 points). 

All skills must come from the Background Skills list, and must be
appropriate to homeworld size, atmosphere, technology, population, and
law unless an Unusual Background is taken as well. No more than 4
points may be allocated to any one skill. 

All innate (inborn) Advantages must also be bought at this time. Other
Advantages may be bought so long as they do not depend on life experience
(eg, Rank, Reputation, Contacts, Tenure).  Racial packages, such as Light-
or Heavy-worlder may be applied if appropriate; racial Disadvantages do not
count against the Disadvantage limit.  

Disadvantages may also be taken to increase points available; indeed,
innate Disadvantages (like Albino) must be taken at this time.  However,
there is an absolute maximum of -25 points in Disadvantages allowed.  Any
time a character equals or exceeds this figure, character generation ends
and the character enters play as is.  Character development also ends if at
any time the character exceeds the "2 point per year of age" limit on
skills; careful management of skill points is necessary.

Background Skills:

Artist
Athletics
Biology
Blade
Bow
Brawling
Chemistry
Computer
Craftsman
Cudgel
Electronics
Fencing
Grav Vehicle
History
Hunting
Languages
Mechanical
Medical
Performer
Persuasion
Pistol
Rifle
Ship's Boat
Shotgun
Stealth
Streetwise
Survival
Thrown Weapon
Tracked Vehicle
Vaccsuit
Watercraft
Wheeled Vehicle
Zero-G Combat


Careers

Characters may be further developed, by following various careers.
Each career has prerequisites for entry, rolls for commissioning (if
appropriate) and promotion, a list of available skills, and specific
Advantages that accrue through service.  Most careers also have an
initial skills package (equivalent to military basic training).
Careers are resolved in 4-year increments, called 'terms', for ease
of management; Grad School and Law School use 2-year 'half-terms'.
The list of possible careers follows:

College
Grad School [half-term]
Law School [half-term]
Medical School
Military Academy
Naval Academy
Merchant Academy

Army
Marine
Commandos
Navy
Scout
Merchant
Agent
Entertainer
Noble
Rogue
Scholar


Sample Career:  Army

Enlistment roll: none.

Prerequisites:  no uncorrected, debilitating Physical Disadvantages;
ST 10; HT 10.

Commission roll:  automatic for Military or Naval Academy graduates,
College or Merchant Academy honor graduates, Status 2+, Doctors, and
Lawyers. Roll 8 or less on 3d6, once per term; +2 for College or
Merchant Academy graduate, +2 for IQ 13+, +3 initial term.
Commissioned characters are officers, Rank 3, Status 0+.  All other
characters are enlisted.

Promotion roll:  12 or less on 3d6, once per term; automatic for
Status 2+, +1 for HT 12+. +1 Rank for each two promotions; +1 Status
each for Ranks 5 and 8.  Enlisted characters promoted to Rank 3 become
Warrant Officers and receive Status 0, but may not be further promoted
without also receiving a commission.

Initial Skills:  10 points.  Rifle (2 points, minimum Rifle-12),
Grenade Launcher (1 point), Thrown Weapon (1 point), Brawling
(1/2 point), Combat Engineer (1/2 point), Machinegun (1/2 point),
Survival (1/2 point); 2 points in one of Gunnery, Pistol, Plasma Gun,
Rifle, Shotgun, or Submachinegun; 2 points in one of Artillery,
Battledress, Communications, Demolitions, Forward Observer, Grav
Vehicle, Mechanical, Medical, Tracked Vehicle, Vaccsuit, or Wheeled
Vehicle.

Term Skills:  8 points per term (including initial), from:

Administration
Artillery
Athletics
Battledress
Blade
Brawling
Combat Engineer
Communications
Demolitions
Electronics
Forward Observer
Grav Vehicle
Grenade Launcher
Gunnery
Interrogation
Laser
Leader
Machinegun
Mechanical
Medical
Pistol
Plasma Gun
Rifle
Sensors
Ship's Boat
Shotgun
Stealth
Submachinegun
Survival
Tactics
Thrown Weapon
Tracked Vehicle
Vaccsuit
Wheeled Vehicle
Zero-G Combat

Secondary Activities: 2 points per term, any skill or advantage.

Advantages:  Military contacts, 2 points per term. Receive Combat
Reflexes at the conclusion of 2d term. If no longer in service when
play begins, Rank becomes Courtesy Rank.

Continuation roll: Roll 17 or less on 3d6; -2 per term.  A failed
continuation rolls may be ignored by accepting -5 points in Physical
or Mental Disadvantages, until the -25 point maximum is reached.
- --=====================_891844562==_--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 17:37:36 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: jump drive exit points

[I haven't followed this whole thread, forgive me if this
has been covered....]
Sun, 5 Apr 1998 06:13:04 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>Having your exit point move is a bit weird.

>According to an earlier post by Marc you exit when your "course"
>crosses *anything's* 100 diameter limit. That's another reason to go
>with the idea of a "fixed" exit point. That way you it's *much* easier
>to tell if a ship's course intersects a 100 diameter "sphere".

Remember, in physics there is not such thing as being stationary
or in motion in an absolute sense.  Everything moves, or not,
with respect to some reference frame.  As long as jump takes
an ideterminate amount of time, the expected exit point will
either move or be fixed depending on the reference frame.
What makes the most sense, since we know that momentum is
conserved on a jump, that the exit point is fixed with
respect to the entry point.  This does mean that the
point may move with respect to the destination planet
(or whatever) and may mean that ships often end up coming
in out of jump siginficantly more than 100 diameters from
the destination world.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 22:59:14
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Barbie's Own Particle Pistol

>
>Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 10:51:14 -0400
>From: jvhinkel <jvhinkel@MCI2000.com>
>Subject: Barbie Particle Pistol  BPP-15
>
>Think that I wanted to type Particle Pistol.
>
>Having trouble with the loss of an hours worth of sleep.

The Barbie's Own Particle Accelerator Pistol (an accessory in the Barbie's
Own Battledress series) is built with TL12 technology. So it should be a
BOPP-12.

Yours pedantically,

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 23:04:32 EDT
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Viliani emperors?

In a message dated 98-04-04 16:57:37 EST, you write:

<< Emdiri (reigned 618-9) and Usuti (619-20).  Does
 anybody know for sure if the names are Viliani, Swahili, Swedish or
 something else?
  >>

These are Vilani names (unless Loren choses to contradict me).

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 05:21:36 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: jump drive exit points

On  5 Apr 98, David P. Summers disseminated foul capitalist 
propaganda by writing:

[...]
> Remember, in physics there is not such thing as being stationary or
> in motion in an absolute sense.  Everything moves, or not, with
> respect to some reference frame.  As long as jump takes an
> ideterminate amount of time, the expected exit point will either
> move or be fixed depending on the reference frame. What makes the
> most sense, since we know that momentum is conserved on a jump, that
> the exit point is fixed with respect to the entry point.  This does
> mean that the point may move with respect to the destination planet
> (or whatever) and may mean that ships often end up coming in out of
> jump siginficantly more than 100 diameters from the destination
> world.

Well, unless we assume that jumpspace is somehow more 
strongly connected to the realspace near gravity wells (say, stars). 
This way, you enter jumpspace that moves with the star system you're 
leaving and exit jumpspace with the same velocity as before, relative 
to jumpspace. Only that jumpspace is moving in a different direction 
now... 

(OTOH, I've avoided that problem IMRHTU by changing jump drives a bit 
- - they only work INSIDE gravity wells, and you keep your velocity 
with respect to the gravity source. Since you can get out of 
jumpspace only near gravity wells, where the "gauntlet" separating J- 
an N-space is weaker, you get out keeping your velocity, but it uses 
the new gravity source as it's reference frame now. So, if you enter 
J-space while on an orbit around the central star, you exit it 
orbiting around the new star, even if - relative to one another - 
those stars move with a big velocity difference.)

(Oh, one more thing - I'm referring to velocity vector here, not 
skalar (sp?) one, of course. )


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    NEW! Tagline-Lite! Only 1/3rd Less Serious...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 00:15:02 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: TRAVELLER book: _Gateway to the Stars_

Just finished reading the book, and I'll pass along a few comments.  No
spoilers, though.

How well does _Gateway to the Stars_ fit with the standard Traveller
background?

    About as well as one of my campaigns does...but remember I'm Eris
    the heretic.  ;-> The adventure, and it reads quite a bit like an
    adventure one of us might run if we only had one player, is set in
    the middle of *a* Third Imperium.  Obviously, not *our* 3rd
    Imperium, but pretty close.  The historical background leading up to
    this Imperium are also close, but not quite the same.  All this will
    be a little jarring to strict canonists, but most of us will be able
    to handle the slightly alternative universe we have here.
    
    The K'kree and Aslan make appearances, and the Droyne are
    prominently mentioned.  The K'kree are handled completely correctly,
    as far as I can tell, the Aslan are not.  An Aslan *male* is
    portrayed as being employed as a cook in a diner, and we know that's
    a little off.  ;-> The Droyne are *known* to be the ancients that
    spread humanity throughout the stars, but completely wiped
    themselves out in a war hundreds of thousands of years ago...close
    but not quite, and not what the run of the mill member of the 3rd
    Imp would know.

How about the technology?

    Jump is about right.  You are stuck in "hyperspace" for 163+/-
    hours, and jumps are measured in parsecs.  The Gateway, a 200 ton
    Far Trader is an old jump 2 ship that gets a little less than that
    on most jumps.  Jumps are handled like hops though space, but you
    still have to get far enough away from a mass to jump or you risk
    the sorts of mishaps we are familiar with.
    
    Maneuver isn't really mentioned, but the impression is that
    Tplate-like drives based on gravity are the new tech, and reaction
    drives are well known, but old tech.  
    
    It's mentioned that without jump it would take 7,000 years to get
    from the system on the edge of the Imperium to its core.  Later when
    the ship is in deep space preparing for it's next jump, it is
    mentioned that if they have to use maneuver drives it will be at
    least 5 years to the nearest system. 
    
    Weaponry was familiar, but again a little off center.  On the
    Gateway are a pair of Meson cannon.  Its defense are meson shields.
    There is no mention of paw or shipboard lasers.  Personal weapons
    include laser pistols and rifles, without bulky powerpacks, but
    projectile weapons are more common and in many ways more effective.
    Thudd and Body pistols are used.  Blades are even more evident,
    though NOT long blades, spring and plastic knives, glue on and
    bioengineered blade-fingernails..that sort of thing.
    
    Electronics is beyond current RW-Earth levels, but not much.  Chris
    wouldn't be pleased.  ;-> The most prominent electronic device was a
    Universal ID...did you guys know this book was coming out two weeks
    ago when you were talking about it?
    
    Gravitics are small, common and used a lot.  Statis fields are
    mentioned as being used to secure cargo in the hold.
    
How about the story?

    Typical action adventure type novel, not great, not awful..IMO.  A
    Rouge looking for a low profile stumbles into more than he bargained
    for and adventures ensue.
    
Is it worth the read?

    For a Traveller fan, yes, I think so.  Not for the story, it's not
    great literature.  Not for the setting, unless you are willing to
    work in an alternate universe...I have to withhold some things here,
    but there are some adventure hooks in there that make it worthwhile
    as a source of adventure ideas.  I say take a look, because it has
    Mark Miller's Traveller on the cover, and if it sells well it will
    encourage Pocket Books to continue with the series...and this *is*
    the first of what should be a series, and because it just might
    bring us some of that "new blood" we've been talking about.
    
    Final analysis.  This isn't great science fiction, but it won't run
    potential players off.

Now, what about the How to play Traveller chapter in the back?

    It is very simplistic.  Just character creation of the six
    characteristics, no skills, no careers.  GM adjucates based on
    characteristics and +/- to 2d6 rolls as he see fit.
    
Eris    
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 01:20:07 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: jump drive exit points

David P. Summers wrote:

> [I haven't followed this whole thread, forgive me if this
> has been covered....]
> Sun, 5 Apr 1998 06:13:04 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
> >Having your exit point move is a bit weird.
>
> >According to an earlier post by Marc you exit when your "course"
> >crosses *anything's* 100 diameter limit. That's another reason to go
> >with the idea of a "fixed" exit point. That way you it's *much* easier
> >to tell if a ship's course intersects a 100 diameter "sphere".
>
> Remember, in physics there is not such thing as being stationary
> or in motion in an absolute sense.  Everything moves, or not,
> with respect to some reference frame.  As long as jump takes
> an ideterminate amount of time, the expected exit point will
> either move or be fixed depending on the reference frame.
> What makes the most sense, since we know that momentum is
> conserved on a jump, that the exit point is fixed with
> respect to the entry point.  This does mean that the
> point may move with respect to the destination planet
> (or whatever) and may mean that ships often end up coming
> in out of jump siginficantly more than 100 diameters from
> the destination world.

Although I posted my theory earlier, I got NO responses, so I'll just
re-mention the applicable theory.

THEORY:
Jumpspace velocity is inversely proportional to gravity.  Of the 7 days
spent in jumpspace, most of it comes from leaving and entering the
microgravity around star systems.  In the vast distance between stars,
velocity (in J-space) approaches infinity and thus takes ~zero  time.  Thus
a jump 1 takes the same time as a jump 6 because the 5 parsec difference is
covered at infinite velocity. I also note that J-space has no inertia
(otherwise crews and even the ship would be shreaded by that acceleration)
thus realspace inertia/velocity is conserved.

How does this relate to 100 diameter limit?  Outside that limit you're going
ludicrously fast.  Although you could drop out of J-space, its like blindly
jumping out of a speeding car, you just don't know how far away you'll end
up.  Gravity wells are navigational aids and just about the only thing you
can sense in J-space.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 01:36:12 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER book: _Gateway to the Stars_

> From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
> 
> Just finished reading the book, and I'll pass along a few comments.  No
> spoilers, though.

Much appreciated.  I take it that it's a relatively short and easy read?

>     Electronics is beyond current RW-Earth levels, but not much.  Chris
>     wouldn't be pleased.  ;-> The most prominent electronic device was a
>     Universal ID...did you guys know this book was coming out two weeks
>     ago when you were talking about it?

Me?  This Chris?  I'm honored.  :^)

>     Final analysis.  This isn't great science fiction, but it won't run
>     potential players off.

I was going to pick it up anyway.  Now, I think I'll pick it up sooner.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 22:05:22 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Can We Trust These People?

>>>  I guess my wishlist really is a wishlist, because at the top of it is
>>>         GDW2 (Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank Chadwick ...)
...
>OK. Have the flying pig drop the winning $105 million lottery ticket at my
>apartment, and I'll make it happen within six months.
...
>Loren Wiseman

  Evidence has been located that providing these people with buckets of
cash is not necessarily advisable; however, their Swiss bank accounts
(and Swiss bank managers) will thank you:

(from SJG's web-site);
>  Our last Game Night featured Junta (and Monica dressed for the occasion,
>in cammo and sunglasses, and we didn't get a picture). Scott was the first
>El Presidente, piling up a huge wad of money while putting down coup attempts
>with the aid of loyal flunkies Steve and Loren. Eventually his loyal flunkies
>put him up against a wall, and Steve became Presidente with Loren as Minister
>of Internal Security, but Scott's lead was insurmountable.

  There is such a thing as enjoying one's work too much :)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #370
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, April 6 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 371



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: [T98#354] IG Archive
Re: GURPS & Traveller
Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking
Re: Milieu Zero - Economics
Re: Milieu Zero - Economics
GURPS Traveller Chargen
Left-overs of Imperium Games
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Left-overs of Imperium Games
re: Jump Drives
Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking
Re: Traveller Timeline
Re: MGs
Re: Artificial Intelligence
Re: Artificial Intelligence
Re: Jump Drives
re: Hyperdrive
Re: Hyperdrive
Re: re: Re: A Couple of Questions...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:58:59 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

Thanks for the post

>Also, I wouldn't want to be holding a p/f gun went it went off.  Those
>suckers will get hot!  The flash might even blind/dazzle the user.
>Protective lenses would be the minimum.
>
The assumption was (perhaps not stated) that they were in Battledress


>>On another issue: what do you think of HEAP small arms ammo.  It seems daft
>>to allow even 4mm Gaus weapons to fire effective HEAP rounds.  I cannot
>>quite make the leap that technology would require.  From current practices
>>it seems impossible.  Could a HEAP round that small (half a gram in weight?)
>>really contain enough energy to penetrate and damge? I realise that they are
>>allowed in FF&S1, but is the physics up to it?
>
>Not under 3G3.  You are better of just making it a solid steel dart.
>>
 Umm '3G3'???

Could you explain your pint again for me
Colin

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 15:27:11 -0500
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: [T98#354] IG Archive

> 
> Good thinking - I just grabbed the TNS (4/2, 21:00 EST), and,
> with Marc's permission (or whoever's is necessary, and not before
> I get it) I'll add it to FT.


I to would like permission to post it to my page.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 00:48:01 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS & Traveller

Sun, 05 Apr 1998 18:36:02 -0600, Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>And there's the rub:  even if we do come up with an adequate,
>career-term-based character generation system for GURPS Traveller, the
>GURPS aging system will not provide this counterbalancing force.  Even in
>basic GURPS, aging rolls begin at 50 years; higher tech levels can easily
>push this to 70 or 90.

Actually, since GURPS Traveller will have conversion notes, you
could, if push comes to shove, just use Traveller rules to
generate characters and then convert them.

However, those who want to have random generation and are leary
of what conversion might introduce might welcome a system like
yours...


>All characters are initially constructed at age 18 with 120 points, and
>at most -5 points in quirks (total: 125 points).

Note: I have found that characters near 100 point work well
for Traveller.  Since you will be adding more points, I would
say that intial construction with 75 might be better.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:18:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking

Hello,
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
...
>was just putting the cultural effects of J-Drive into perspective.
>
>>      ... OC, any change to the Trav
>> universes Terrans mindset occurred around -2000, or around three millenia
>> ago. Around 1000 BCE, the use of horses for cavalry mounts was not yet
>> practical. I doubt that horses are relevent to the working lives of many 
>> of the TML'ers.
>
>I'm not sure that I exactly follow this.  Could you please explain this a
>little more?

  To us it's miraculous, even though i) we're probably part of a very small
proportion of the planets inhabitants who give a damn, and ii) it is really
possible (theoretically) already for humans to colonize parts of the system
and then beyond.

  We don't know what effect Jump tech had on Terrans 3000 years before the
Classic Trav milieu; the effect on M:1100 citizens is, I suggest, minimal.

>Well, okay...  Not exactly what I was looking for, but an interesting point
>anyway.  How many folks in the Traveller universe suspect that Jump is an
>artifact, and is it _really_?

  Meant as a joke. i) I treat it as a natural physical phenomenon. ii) There's
only one person who can say for sure.

>The difference being that we could load up an expensive ship for an
>extremely long voyage, and possibly never know if it succeeded or not.  The
>first interstellar jump would likely be a month or so from the first
>crackling J-Space penetration <it crackles IMTU :^) > to the safe return of
>the ship.

  Yes, but for most us the availability of such a capability would be less
than that represented by the Space Shuttle. By the time that availability
was noticeably widespread it might have ceased to be revolutionary, and
would have less importance in the lives of most people than boosters to
deliver fractional orbit payloads have represented for much of this century.

>We're not on the same wavelength here.  You just pointed out exactly what I
>mean.  Someone wouldn't have to consider the impracticalities, because it
>wouldn't be an impracticality.  When eyes turned to the sky, whether the
>brain they belonged to cared about space travel or not, the fact that _we_
>could go there would change things entirely.  

  I'm suggesting that to most people these innovations are irrelevent,
as the use of these capabilities is not economical for them. To the people
who do use them - provided that change itself is not a revolutionary concept
- - the novelty will be transitory and not epoch making in their minds (e.g.,
airliners, not to say that some pundits at the time wouldn't have ascribed
more importance to their effects).

  Specifically, it's quite possible that very few 21st century Terrans cared
very much (thus, the possibility arises that major social effects could
include a radical divergence of cultural types a la Niven, but that's
another genre entirely) and the others mostly got along with business.
Of course, given personnel attrition in long naval campaigns some people
might care more, as a Jump-capable warship assignment in wartime becomes
a statistically near certain death sentence.

>>   The militarization of the extra-orbital system may save us. Or, of
>course, we may not be saved.
>
>Of course, the commercialization of space might still get us out there too

  An arms race (space naval race, specifically) would be much faster, if
hard on the average worker supporting the expense. Von Braun wanted to
build space stations and moon shuttles; war rockets was merely a career
side-line, albeit one that he didn't balk at sufficiently.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:44:12 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero - Economics

Hello,
>From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
...
>In my mind, trying to get every last credit from the planet is bad
>business, because the people are going to figure out very fast that every
>dime that is important goes off planet, and that they are not getting new
>infrastructure and new training that makes them wealthy.       /...

  True. However, removing potential competitors from the pond can make
for exceedingly attractive politics. Also, even in a provably positive
sum game, some players may have policy needs in which pure maximization
of their own position is of overwhelming importance.

...
>NB, I do not disagree that many companies nowadays would take a "next
>fiscal quarter" approach, but I think this is an aberration, and will
>result in a serious economic adjustment.  If you do not plan for the short
>(five year) term, you cannot survive very well when you hit someone who
>can.  The 3I has the cultural heritage of a people who planned for
>centuries, and survived for millennia, and people who planned for the short
>term, and crashed.  Hopefully, they figured out that you need to go for the
>long term dollar as well as the short, and sometimes, letting some else get
>rich can make you richer.

  This is a very nice point, and a good reminder for discussions on
Traveller economics and organization. Thanks.

...
>Further, you need local manufacturing, because shipping across stars is
>expensive, and the canonical prices seem to assume a 90% subsidy, if my
>reading of present day prices is any indicator.

  What? I thought that the Cr 1000 per Dt was pretty much economically
indicated as accurate per Jump for J-2 or 3 vessels. Seeings as that's
potentially (14 KL @ 3t/KL = ~40 tonnes, of ore, for example) from
door to door, virtually (e.g., pithead to smelter), it seems to be pretty
cheap too.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 00:59:08 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero - Economics

Hello,
>From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
...
>	I have two real problems with M:0.  First, it is _way_ too 
>cynical for my tastes.  Second, given the cynicism, the business plan for 
>the imperium was not tenable in the long run because it focused on 
>sucking all the wealth out of planets rather than creating stable, 
>long-run trading partners.

  I didn't mind the cynicism, but the unlikelihood of eventual victims
not catching on bothered me. Logically, the contact school methods could
produce an equilibrium situation where the Imperium hits a border past
which _everyone_ has realized that the 3I is _bad_, and would do everything
possible to stop it. Even if conquest were still possibel, consolidation
would be extremely time-consuming - centuries long, quite possibly.

  Or the contact/assimilation model would have to change, but the resistance
would still be disproportionate due to truly immense distrust.

...
>	As for all of this stuff about clean and quick coup-de-gras with a
>new ruler installed friendly to the Imperium, look at the kind of regimes
>this created when the US and French tried this during the Cold War in SE
>Asia and Africa.  We got the worst, most corrupt despots of all.  You
>can't create stable political and economic institutions through civil wars
>and internecine conflict.

  Quite true. But you can create delightfully dependent (and thus compliant)
client governments, and leave the expense of occupation and administration
to their Finance Ministry.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:30:53 -0400
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: GURPS Traveller Chargen

>The attachmed file is a sample of what I mean. It is not even a draft, but
>more of a sketch of a possible solution.  It derives from Traveller: the

[major snippage]

This is what I like to see; someone who doesn't merely complain, but does
something about it :)
Seriously, while I prefer GURPS-style chargen, this is an excellent idea and
is worthy of further development, if only for posting on a website. I might
even be tempted to help playtest such a character creation system :)

Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:56:08 +0200 (MSZ)
From: Hudel Helge <Hudel@Stud-Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: Left-overs of Imperium Games

I got a simple question (guess it was already answered before I showed up
on the list):
Does it make sens to buy 
Milieu 0 Campaign instead of Milieu 0 (and perhaps additionally First
Survey?) - the advertising of IG promised that they would fix the bugs of
First survey and add additional stuff to M0C - is this right?
My local retailer hasn't been able to get M0C for me for about 4 months
now...
As I basically prefer the Rebellion setting Milieu 0 sports the big
advantage of detailing the structures from the beginning (a foundation of
later discontent between Solomani and Vilani Imperials). IMTU one group is 
currently employed by Sharurshid repatriating Imperial citizens to
Lishun-Sector before () while the other band of roving Knights of the
Bridled Steed is involved in the hot recovery of BECesr...errr(artificial
psionics as detailed in the Regency Sourcebook) research data and the
experimental disintigrator components from the Rebellion sourcebook (The
Nail Mission, remember). I'd like to add any colour I could obtain for the
Vilani setting. I'd also like to take an expedition to Sylea (before the
Black Curtain closes!!!)
Are there any archives related to Vilani material?
Thanx in advance

H2
God-Emperor-to-be  <<Hey, I'm not insane - merely ambitious!>>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:57:58 +0000
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@friko.onet.pl>
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

On  6 Apr 98, Colin Hutchinson disseminated foul capitalist 
propaganda by writing:

[...]
> >>On another issue: what do you think of HEAP small arms ammo.  It seems daft
<snip>

> >Not under 3G3.  You are better of just making it a solid steel dart.

>  Umm '3G3'???

Guns, Guns, Guns! by Greg Porter from BTRC. You can buy a .pfd 
version from Hyberbooks online, BTW, along with a spreadsheet. 

Well, let's just say BTRC rules. ;>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; 
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
  Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+ 
  PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
    My dentist is painless - he doesn't feel a thing. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:56:08 +0200 (MSZ)
From: Hudel Helge <Hudel@Stud-Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: Left-overs of Imperium Games

I got a simple question (guess it was already answered before I showed up
on the list):
Does it make sens to buy 
Milieu 0 Campaign instead of Milieu 0 (and perhaps additionally First
Survey?) - the advertising of IG promised that they would fix the bugs of
First survey and add additional stuff to M0C - is this right?
My local retailer hasn't been able to get M0C for me for about 4 months
now...
As I basically prefer the Rebellion setting Milieu 0 sports the big
advantage of detailing the structures from the beginning (a foundation of
later discontent between Solomani and Vilani Imperials). IMTU one group is 
currently employed by Sharurshid repatriating Imperial citizens to
Lishun-Sector before () while the other band of roving Knights of the
Bridled Steed is involved in the hot recovery of BECesr...errr(artificial
psionics as detailed in the Regency Sourcebook) research data and the
experimental disintigrator components from the Rebellion sourcebook (The
Nail Mission, remember). I'd like to add any colour I could obtain for the
Vilani setting. I'd also like to take an expedition to Sylea (before the
Black Curtain closes!!!)
Are there any archives related to Vilani material?
Thanx in advance

H2
God-Emperor-to-be  <<Hey, I'm not insane - merely ambitious!>>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:58:41 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Jump Drives

Joe Petit wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The concept is that you can mate several disks together.  Theoretically an unlimited
quantity (like a stack of coins) can be linked.  Practically, it's limited by the
interconnections the master computer can handle (probably TL modules).  Since you're
using modular jacks, connections are very fast. Initial lockdown is immediate, fuel,
power and computer linkage would take a couple man-hours each. Each jump drive would
have to be individually prepared, but in theory you've got complete crews for each
freighter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This sounds pretty complex, with multiple computers, jump drives and power
systems all working in sync. If you've got ten jump ships linked together, if time
between coil activation and jump varies by milliseconds and you can't compensate
properly you'll have jump catastrophes, misjumps, etc. Even if a several-second
variation in jump entry time only happened 1% of the time on an individual ship,
it would kill a stack of 10 ships once every ten jumps.

Your idea that TL will be the limiting factor is probably accurate...I'd say this
would be impossible at TL 9, adding one possible module per TL over that - 
unless you wanted to make it a multiplier of some sort (do you want five or
six modules or do you want a dozen?). Also, I'd make the important TL be
the Jump Drive TL, not the computer TL, as precise control of jump field
would be more important than computer capability - we control nanosecond
complex processes now.


Walt Smith
- ------------------------------------------
With sufficient amounts of handwaving, you can save surprising amounts
on your air conditioning bil....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:00:22 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking

> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
> 
>   To us it's miraculous, even though i) we're probably part of a very small
> proportion of the planets inhabitants who give a damn, and ii) it is really
> possible (theoretically) already for humans to colonize parts of the system
> and then beyond.

The difference between theory and reality is pretty big.  If NASA or some
Japanese or European business started a base or colony on the moon, do you
think anyone would look up the moon the same way again?

>   We don't know what effect Jump tech had on Terrans 3000 years before
the
> Classic Trav milieu; the effect on M:1100 citizens is, I suggest,
minimal.

I'm not sure I agree with this sentiment.  The effect of jet airliners is
profound even to those who can't afford to fly in them.  Look at the term
"jet set", which is still a term in common usage to refer to those whose
lifestyles afford them the luxury.  The term isn't as popular as it was
throughout the 1960s and 1970s, but it still persists.

>   Yes, but for most us the availability of such a capability would be less
> than that represented by the Space Shuttle. By the time that availability
> was noticeably widespread it might have ceased to be revolutionary, and
> would have less importance in the lives of most people than boosters to
> deliver fractional orbit payloads have represented for much of this century.

I'm not talking about direct effect here.  I'm talking a shift in the way
people feel.  The emergence of efficient air travel in the 1930s had a
definite effect on the way people thought, despite the fact that very few
people could afford it.  The cultural record from the two-fisted adventure
pulps where Doc Savage would fly off to, say Germany, and then, say the
heart of South America indicates that there was a very definite shift. 
Further, the popularity of the mysteries of Africa and Asia during this
same period I think further indicates the kind of thing I'm talking about.

>   I'm suggesting that to most people these innovations are irrelevent,
> as the use of these capabilities is not economical for them. To the people
> who do use them - provided that change itself is not a revolutionary concept
> - the novelty will be transitory and not epoch making in their minds (e.g.,
> airliners, not to say that some pundits at the time wouldn't have ascribed
> more importance to their effects).

Valid point.  I disagree though, but I can only do so theoretically because
I haven't done enough looking into the cultural effects of efficient air
travel.

>   Specifically, it's quite possible that very few 21st century Terrans cared
> very much (thus, the possibility arises that major social effects could
> include a radical divergence of cultural types a la Niven, but that's
> another genre entirely) and the others mostly got along with business.
> Of course, given personnel attrition in long naval campaigns some people
> might care more, as a Jump-capable warship assignment in wartime becomes
> a statistically near certain death sentence.

No, I'm talking here about a more fundamental change.  The knowledge that
stars are places as opposed to lights in the sky.  We can theoretically
look at these lights and imagine alien worlds orbiting different suns
because we're fans of science-fiction.  However, the truth of the matter
is, until some method of reaching them is developed that allows us to visit
them they just remain lights in the sky.

I'm not sure I can accurately describe what I mean.

>   An arms race (space naval race, specifically) would be much faster, if
> hard on the average worker supporting the expense. Von Braun wanted to
> build space stations and moon shuttles; war rockets was merely a career
> side-line, albeit one that he didn't balk at sufficiently.

Possibly.  We "know" that conflict breeds better technology and opens new
vistas, but keep in mind that commercialization is another form of warfare.
 It's just (usually) not as violent.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 10:14:13 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Timeline

From Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>:
>
> > Uh, well, so what? Just because there's no published info doesn't
> > mean that it wouldn't make a good new adventure milieu. In fact,
> > a lack of published material is, in a lot of ways, a bonus.
> 
> But the breakdown was for discussion of a timeline derived from 
> published material :)

Ah. Well, sure then.

> > Published, schmublished. I have a damn fine vision of what the end
> > of the Nth Interstellar War and the beginning of the Rule of Man looks
> > like.
> 
> You and me both.  Wonder if we have the same vision?

Hmmmm... Lessee... not that I've thought about it a whole lot, but...

Earth goes into space. The Terrans meet the Vilani. Much fighting 
ensues.

The beginnings of the Second Imperium do not look like the 3I.

The two major things I've really thought through are:

 - really small, cramped ships for the Terrans. Any setting can
   be made cooler just by letting the players know that their
   characters are really, really cramped. "Das Boot" in space.
   In contrast, of course, the Vilani are building things like
   the Titanic in space.

 - The Terrans, in their infinite wisdom, decide that they need to
   rule the conqured "Empire of the Stars" in person. Thus, each
   and every officer in the Terran Navy is sent out to look after
   some bit of Vilani space, be it a sector, system, planet, starport
   or gas station. Of course, confusion reigns and mixups occasionally
   occur. Like when the PCs, a group of wet-behind-the-ears
   Lieutentants, get sent to take charge of a Vilani highport.
   Whoops.

Besides that, there are the Vilani-Terran issues, where Terrans have to
try to figure out why the Vilani are so wierd (well, from a Terran
POV, you get what I mean), and, of course, the military issues - I doubt
that the fighting ever really ended during the Rule of Man - it just
went underground and took the form of skirmshes, local battles,
terrorism, that sort of thing.

Again, I haven't though about it a heck of a lot, but there are a lot
of cool ideas to be explored. Someone should spec it out for a source
book.
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 07:20:06 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: MGs

On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Peter Newman wrote:

> My primary reason for suggesting the elimination of the beam pointer was
> not practicality but verisimilitude.  I do not think a man portable
> meson gun needs a beam pointer since it uses the mark 1 eyeball for a
> targeting system. 

Quick, what's the _exact_ distance, in cm, to that Trepida flying by over
there!  If your Mk1 eyball can tell me that, your name's Steve Austin.
Such a low power meson gun is going to depend even more on accurate
targeting than a higher power one, since the radius of meson decay varies
with the power, hence placing the blast _within_ a target depends on
knowing exactly _where_ that target is. With eyeball targetting you're
going to need ranging shots and a good continuous view of the target. 

Of course, as I posted earlier, with a LOS weapon like this, small arms
rangefinders will work, but they're what will limit the range.

Of course, feeding proper coordinates into the gun from somewhere _will_
make it an 'indirect' fire weapon. It's still a direct fire weapon, as
you're aiming _at_ the target in a direct line, it just ignores the fact
that you can't _see_ the target through that hill over there.

Actually, with a decent portable sensor suite spread out from a secure
location, this little MP meson gun becomes a much more viable squad
support weapon, just not the munchkin-ish 'Big Guns! We need BIG GUNS!'
kinda toy.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:53:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence

Michael Koehne wrote:

>        TL:17+  synaptic linked systems
>
>                Computers are now not longer silicoid, but grown by
>                a geeneered cell. They have real intelligence and
>                are imune to virus.
>
>        TL:10-16 AI-Virus enhanced computers

An argument could be made that Virus is the end result of a tech-17
research project gone wrong.  After all, there's a lot of worlds at
tech-16 in the Massilia and Core area, and a couple of other AI
research projects mentioned (that automatic starport wasn't that far
away in Core, as I recall).

You could also argue that truly perfected tech-17 AI computers aren't
necessarily immune to Virus, but that they are extremely effective in
electronic combat with infected equipment.  

Then again, has anyone else noticed just how hazardous that tech-17
research projects are when mishandled (Darrian Star Trigger, AI Virus,
etc.)?  

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:05:43 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence

> Then again, has anyone else noticed just how hazardous that tech-17
> research projects are when mishandled (Darrian Star Trigger, AI Virus,
> etc.)?

By the law, you aren't considered responsible until 18 :-)

Seriously though, I've been toying with combining binary stars into single
stars with combined mass.  Thus all those binary MV stars can form an
actual habital zone.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:11:46 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives

> Your idea that TL will be the limiting factor is probably accurate...I'd say this
> would be impossible at TL 9, adding one possible module per TL over that -
> unless you wanted to make it a multiplier of some sort (do you want five or
> six modules or do you want a dozen?). Also, I'd make the important TL be
> the Jump Drive TL, not the computer TL, as precise control of jump field
> would be more important than computer capability - we control nanosecond
> complex processes now.

I'm thinking square of the TL jump capacity of the worst linkage.  That qualifies a jump
5 capable freighter chain (25 ships) as a Needle configuration.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:18:03 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Hyperdrive

Leszek Karlik wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Just out of curiousity - how do you use a defensive "line"
> effectively in a 3-D environment? Why didn't the Impies go solar
> system north or south
>  and just go "over" or "under" Lensheerr's defense line?

Errr... Because the Empire is stupid? (c.v. "Star Wars")

(Besides, isn't going out of the ecliptic plane a bit energy and 
reaction mass expensive?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Less expensive than letting a defensive fleet convert lots of
your fleet's M to E by way of c squared. Besides, the intruders
held the outer system - including several gas giants for refueling.
If you can fill 20-30% of your ship with fuel, you've got the reaction
mass.

Unless, of course, the limiting factor was time.

You can't make a line in space and defend it. You can defend
points, and even make it expensive for your enemy to bypass
those points, but you can't build a line the enemy can't go
around. Asteroid belts are great defensive locations to hide
SDB's in for later use, but you can't build a Maginot Line there
and expect it to do any good.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:36:31 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hyperdrive

Walter G. Smith wrote:

> Leszek Karlik wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > Just out of curiousity - how do you use a defensive "line"
> > effectively in a 3-D environment? Why didn't the Impies go solar
> > system north or south
> >  and just go "over" or "under" Lensheerr's defense line?
>
> Errr... Because the Empire is stupid? (c.v. "Star Wars")
>
> (Besides, isn't going out of the ecliptic plane a bit energy and
> reaction mass expensive?)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Less expensive than letting a defensive fleet convert lots of
> your fleet's M to E by way of c squared. Besides, the intruders
> held the outer system - including several gas giants for refueling.
> If you can fill 20-30% of your ship with fuel, you've got the reaction
> mass.
>
> Unless, of course, the limiting factor was time.
>
> You can't make a line in space and defend it. You can defend
> points, and even make it expensive for your enemy to bypass
> those points, but you can't build a line the enemy can't go
> around. Asteroid belts are great defensive locations to hide
> SDB's in for later use, but you can't build a Maginot Line there
> and expect it to do any good.

Speaking of Maginot Line, didn't the Germans just go around it?

Its the old square cube law.  You can defend a point with a line in 2
dimensions.  But you need an area when you jump to 3 dimensions.  If you
concider J-space as a 4th dimension, you need to defend the whole volume.
We're talking Dyson spheres here.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:54:12 +0000
From: "Paul Rocchi" <paul_rocchi@sns.ca>
Subject: Re: re: Re: A Couple of Questions...

> Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:24:47 +0100
> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> Subject: re: Re: A Couple of Questions...
> 
>  "LLOYD ROBINSON" <LJR@sbscorp.com> wrote:
> 
> >My intent was to get materials for the game that I like to play, that's
> >Traveller. I TRIED IG and then  FFE
> >after IG did not respond. I got no replies.
> 
> IG was notoriously bad at dealing with orders (ask Rob Prior if you want a
> really bad story). FFE had nothing to do with the distribution of T4 - Marc
> is just selling old CT/MT/TNE stuff he got from the clearout of GDW's
> warehouses. I suspect that Marc also gets silly volumes of email...
> 
> You really need to approach a distributer, but I can't recommend any in the
> US. I can recommend a UK (London) based company but I suspect you are in
> the US and you don't want to pay the 50% surcharge on postage.
> 
> >I hope that Steve Jackson Games does a better job at getting
> >>the products to the customer.
> 
> They probably will, but you may still want to use a retailer/mail order
> company. Perhaps one of the US list members can recommend somewhere.
> 
SJG does do direct sales, and allows you to order directly over the 
Web. 

The current status of  every SJG product (New Release, In Stock, Low 
Stock, Out of Stock, At the Printer, In Development) can be looked up 
at http://www.sjgames.com/general/allproduct-status.html

The Online catalog for SJG is at http://www.sjgames.com/catalog/

SJG were among the first of the gaming companies to go web friendly. 
Their "Daily Illuminator", http://www.sjgames.com/ill/ , serves up a 
daily dose of corporate/industry news and general weirdness. Eratta 
for ALL their games, and web links for resources are online at the 
SJG site. 

And they've just taken their magazine, Pyramid, from paper to 
a web-based publication. 

Their distribution is good, their web presence is excellent. If your 
local retailer can get their product, support your local retailer. 
But if he can't, SJG hemselves will get it to you over the web. 

Check out the SJG site now.
(I'm not just a TML Member, I'm the SJG Men in Black (demo team) 
Regional Director for eastern Canada)

- --
Paul Rocchi
Paul_Rocchi@sns.ca (business)
procchi@total.net (personal)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #371
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Traveller-digest        Monday, April 6 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 372



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Milieu Zero - Economics
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: Milieu Zero - Economics
Traveller and Real World Technology
GURPS Traveller notes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:53:47 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero - Economics

At 12:59 AM 4/6/98 -0700, you wrote:

>  I didn't mind the cynicism, but the unlikelihood of eventual victims
>not catching on bothered me. Logically, the contact school methods could
>produce an equilibrium situation where the Imperium hits a border past
>which _everyone_ has realized that the 3I is _bad_, and would do everything
>possible to stop it. Even if conquest were still possibel, consolidation
>would be extremely time-consuming - centuries long, quite possibly.

Which happened right about the time the Pacification Campaigns started,
IMHO.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:56:12 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

At 01:58 PM 4/6/98 +0800, you wrote:

>>Not under 3G3.  You are better of just making it a solid steel dart.

> Umm '3G3'???

>Could you explain your pint again for me

3G3= Guns! Guns! Guns! from BTRC.  An excellent weapons design system that
converts to several different systems (T4, TNE, MT, GURPS, and CORPS among
them.)

I use it for weapons design because the numbers are a lot more realistic.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:14:43 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero - Economics

John Macpherson writes...

I can tell from your response that you didn't actually read most of what I
wrote. We are in agreement on most things.

>Let me start with PE.
I made no statements about PE. My responsibilities on PE were strictly plot
and storyline. None of the economic numbers were mine.

>the business plan for the imperium was not tenable in the long run
>because it focused on sucking all the wealth out of planets rather
>than creating stable, long-run trading partners.
This statement is completely false. The business plan _was_ to create
stable, long-run trading partners. Just as you advocate.

>My reading of M:0 was that Cleon was a greedy SOB who had
>declared the 3I because it was a good business move.
Which is what Marc said he was, more or less.

>I think this is a bit one-dimensional.
No less 1-dimensional than some idealistic struck fairy-tale hero. Just a
different dimension.

>You have described a whole system for killing off political
>leaders, debasing currencies, extracting all mineral wealth, etc.
Only in the first stages. And only political leaders who would not support
Imperium, currencies that posed a threat of economic dependence, and
minerals for the same reason. You are ignoring completely the development
stages and just focusing on the first part.

>First off, why is there this assumption that all worlds will
>be ruled by a bunch of petty tyrants?
If they aren't then you skip the first several steps.

>Sylea would have no need to topple to productively trade with.
Of course not. It doesn't say you have to follow the plan from step one for
every world.

>Besides, I thought there was extensive canon to support a very
>"hands-off" 3I that didn't care what local government was like so long as
>they obeyed a few simple rules, allowed free trade, paid taxes, etc.
In the later Imperium, yes. But that just wouldn't work in Milieu:0.

>Second, there are plenty of things that can be traded to these
>worlds in exchange for their mineral wealth
Bzzzt. Wrong. Read it again. It says very explicitly that trade is limited
by _volume_. Stages are governed by what sort of volume of trade has been
built up. In the first stages it is assuming that you have 50t of cargo
going to and from the world twice per _year_. You can't shift all that
extra high-tech stuff you suggest in that small a space. In a progressive,
expanding, conquest of space you are always going to have high-volume trade
to those nearest the border, and very low volume as you move beyond that.
As the border expands, the volume of trade increases. All the worthwhile
things you mention are certainly items for trade, when they have enough
volume to support it.

>As for the gold-standard somehow being more stable or viable then
>a freely floating currency, this is really something of a myth.
It isn't so much that, but that the gold itself could be used by the world
to buy stuff (like mercenaries) in an uncontrolled way. Really anything
that is small, highly valuable, and has a recognised, easily tradable
(stable) value in the external market is a target for depletion. In
low-volume trading, it is just about the only thing worthwhile shipping
out, anyway.

>You seem to have the IMO mistaken notion that war builds
>infrastructure.  In fact, it destroys it in huge volumes.
I agree completely. Ancient infrastructure, though, is all but useless.
England, for example, suffered no massive devastation to its roads and
factories as a result of WWII. So in a post-war era they just sort of
limped along with what they had. Germany, on the other hand, got to rebuild
everything with the latest there was to offer. They came out a hell of a
lot stronger.
Similarly, by controlling a short war, the economic planners
(manipulators?) of the Imperium can clean out all the old stuff that would
otherwise hold them back from making modern, exportable items.

>War is the fastest way to reduce a people to poverty ever devised.
Perfect group for Imperial infrastructure development loans and grants.
(Believe me, Ireland has made a bomb from these grants in the European
Community!)

>Your point that developing infrastructure and the workforce for
>the purpose of producing exports is good business is precisely _my_
>point.
Like I said, we are in agreeement on most things.

>Why not got straight to this without first trashing the planet
>with wars, coups, financial chaos, etc.
Because people won't invest in improvement unless they have to. Governments
are unlikely to put themselves in massive foriegn debt (or take massive
foriegn aid) to build things up to a level that they can't really see as
necessary. They are far more interested in petty little tit-for-tat
economic or political spats with their neighbours. This is the human
condition. Look at the history of Europe. Ireland, in particular, _always_
fought itself in preference to others. It wasn't till an outside Empire
came in (the English) that any sort of unity developed.

>As I've explained above, worlds will want to move to a currency
>backed by the IC on their own because the IC will be more widely demanded
>and more useful than gold, therefore it will be a more stable thing to
>base one's currency on.
Once they move to that mode of thinking. But if the Imperium had to wait
for them to come to this conclusion it would be dead an buried. Cleon's
Empire needs _fast_ expansion. Otherwise they are stuck with the
incremental growth that plagued the Sylean Confederation. The only way to
achieve this is to make their decisions for them and give them a path of no
choice.

>Unless you are dealing with a totally xenophobic world that
>refuses to see the benefits of interstellar trade, they'll want to open
>their doors regardless.
You haven't followed European Community development much, have you. The
Imperium needs these worlds far more than those worlds think they need the
Imperium.

>Then they have the choice of remaining isolated or joining the
>interstellar community through the 3I.
But they've been isolated for their entire living history. Their
politicians, always a conservative lot, will see no great detraction in
remaining so, or taking small steps forward. This does not meet Cleon's
timetable.

>Right, the Imperium just starts wars, sells the despots guns,
>picks a new ruler, and then deposes him with a coup, followed by robbing
>the world of its mineral wealth and destroying its financial system,
>before finally forcing them onto their knees so that they have no choice
>but to join the evil empire that got them into the mess in the first
>place.
You got the order a little wrong here. The Imperium trades low-volume,
high-wealth goods to any petty world-leaders for items of personal power.
These later demand more, which the imperium gives as their volume of trade
increases (funded by previous exchanges). The Imperium refrains from
selling armaments (dispite their desire for such) since it will mean war
until they have reached the point where the Imperium can control that war.
Then then give them the stuff to have a quick, war and sell them the
orbital information so as to allow specific military targets to be struck.
When the winner is more or less clear they further allow them to hire in
high-tech mercenaries. They go and perform the coup-de-grace on the upper
echelon of all the enemies.
IF the winner shows further militant tendencies they support a coup to
depose them and replace the world-government with a more sensable leaders.
They then supply massive loads/aid to help them build their infrastructure
up to modern levels so they can, finally, produce goods that can be traded
on the export market.

>I don't think wars ever kill-off the gung-ho types,
The do if conducted as I suggest above.

>look at the kind of regimes this created when the US and French tried this
They didn't have quite the tech level difference, nor the economic support,
nor the lack of internal opposition (in the Outback, anyway) that Cleon's
empire has.

Scott writes:
>It seems to me that this would result very early on in the locals
realizing
>that the real enemy was the 3I.
The directives during the early stages are to just deal with the autocrats
directly. There is no general popular image of the Imperium until the
rebuilding stage.

>Furthermore, anyone who had a trace of the honor
>talked about in the books would have a hard time considering a deal
>designed to destroy the fabric of the victim society honorable.
_Ultimately_ the whole contact procedure can be seen as good. It raises the
standards of living, brings world peace, a beneficient government,
interstellar protection and so forth to a whole world of people. So a few
petty dictators and military types get killed. A small price to pay.
It isn't that difficult to rationalise even for someone very honour-bound.

>With this kind of history, anyone who hears about the Imperium is going to
>know that the 3I is the enemy.
From an outside perspective, the Imperial involvement in the early stages
is not high profile. The messy bits only last a few years, anyway. After
that you have the "official" history of "Oh, look, the Imperium came and
helped us clean up our world, gave us indoor plumbing and brough economic
stability and wealth." Astute observers will likely consider more the loss
of sovernity. If they are petty dictators they are likely to want to buy
guns to deal with it, sending themselves right along that path. If they
have a stable world government then the Imperium can skip the early steps
and get right down to business.

>Destroying a government you helped put in place, though, is a terrible
>idea, as nobody trusts you again to help them, or even contact them.
But that is just it, the Imperium just keeps helping whatever government
the _people_ have chosen. From the outside anyway. They are only going to
want to replace dictator if they aren't popular. The result is that the
Imperium is supporting the (media manipuilated) will of the people. Good
PR, not bad PR.

>As a result, economic self interest would indicate playing as straight
>as needed to keep warfare from breaking out on the frontier, and
>revolution in the interior.
I hope I've clarified that the Imperium only involves itself publically in
positive efforts. The view from the outside is an expanding wave of worlds
with much improved economies and wealth, at the expense of some
self-government. The Plan also produces demilitarised worlds. Warfare and
revolution are rather unlikely as long as the people have their bread and
circuses. Given the boost in propserity for the average individual of these
planets their politicians are going to be popular people.

>Consider - from the point of view of the locals, the first actions in the
>ZSC will most likely cause a worldwide depression by undermining the
>currency, the manufacturing, and the social structures
Again, the ZSC calls for discretion at this point. There is really no
popular view of the Imperium. Rather it is their own dictators who cause
this, which the Imperium gallantly comes and rescues them from.

>Considering the present situation on Earth.   Would it work to tell us
>straight out that Imperial trade must take place in manufactured goods,
>Imperial credits, and raw materials, and point out that trade issues are
>settled with one and only one body on the planet?
Given my present, personal experience of the European Community. No. Given
the sort of problems we've had just trying to implement a Single European
Currency I shudder to think the effort to come up with a Single World
Currency!

>Would it work better to skulk behind the scenes, and engineer the
>alteration of our world economy and the revaluation into Imperial
>credits and dependence on Imperial machinery?
[Who says it isn't happening already. <slap!> Sorry, too much X-Files.]
The latter I think is the only way to get people to move to your agenda on
any sort of efficient timescale.

>In my mind, trying to get every last credit from the planet is bad
business,
I am in complete agreement. In the early point of the plan you are
exporting more wealth than you are importing. In the mid-point of the plan
you are importing more wealth than you are exporting. In the end-game of
the plan they are integrated and part of the economy and economic balance
is what is strived for.

>My reading of M0 differs from yours.
Probably because most people get bored and only skim over the last parts of
the plan. The ones that have all the developmental stuff in them. Also I'm
going for memory of what I submitted, rather than what came out the other
end. I've never done a tight cross-check to see what got lost in the
hurried editing. [Insert standard IG author disclaimer about tight
deadlines, etc, etc. Yawn.]

>Instead, allow those who have the material wealth to use it to buy off
>planet goods.  This will accomplish the same end, but the different
>reason means that you are more likely to get the effect you want.
I'm not sure you can make this work to the needed timetable. Yes, this is
certainly viable on worlds that already have a good, enlightened economic
setup. The early stages can be skipped then. My vision of the Outback,
though, is closer to the TNE version of the Wilds. Mostly oppressive,
balkanised, or primitive regimes.

>The primary rule was that technology which would
>completely destabilize the realm was in general not imported,
I like your trade codes idea. That is generally how I envision the later
Imperium working. The problem with the above is that frequently you need
technology that has the potential to destablise the realm  to produce
viable exports.

>We may be more in agreement than I thought.  Why not have the engines of
>creation spring into being, though, early in the M0 period, rather than
>after.
I hope the above clarifies that we are, as I beleive, close. Your quoted
text from Irurk is precisely what I envisage from a world in the later
stages fo the plan. Wish it could have been in the book.
The plan is dated to Year-0. Which is why it is called the ZSC, not the
ISC. It is persented as having been taught in the Z. Merchant Academy. The
declaration of Empire would doubtless put a different slant on things and
begin moving them toward the idealism you are seeking.

>I have read that section as propaganda by people who did not agree,
>based on the relatively small number of worlds where it did happen.
Another reading, fitting in with how it is presented, could be that it is
an Academic view as taught by arm-chair economic theorists in the Z.
Merchant Academy on Sylea.



You can choose to believe that it is all bogus and won't work if you desire
to. But it is consistent and self-supportive in the context given. You can
just as easily choose to believe it.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:06:32 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Traveller and Real World Technology

Want to know what everyday life could be like in the Imperium? Look at
today's news! A number of today's headlines and issues can easily
be used in a Traveller setting. Examples are:

***************
April 5, 1998
Web posted at: 10:47 p.m. EDT (0247 GMT)

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) -
National Semiconductor Corp. plans to announce on Monday a way to
combine most of the chips used in personal computers into a single chip,
which could bring PC prices under $500 and lead to a host of new
computing devices.
<snip>
"You will be surrounded by PCs," [National's Chief Executive Brian]
Halla said of machines that could use National's new chips. "You will
get into your car and say e-mail please, you will have a flat panel
display on the wall above your bedroom. It could be impossible to
predict what will happen by the year 2000." 


April 2, 1998
Web posted at: 4:50 PM EST (1650 GMT) 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A scientist in New York has applied for a patent
on a process for making creatures that would be part human and part
animal, the Washington Post reported Thursday.

It said Stuart Newman, a cellular biologist at New York Medical Center
in Valhalla, did not want to make the creatures -- but wanted to stop
anyone else from making them.
<snip>
There are patents on such creatures, known as chimeras. What message
Newman is worried about is a technique for growing a chimera from human
and animal embryo cells.

His technique, described in the science journal Nature, would involve
mixing human cells with the cells of an animal -- perhaps a chimpanzee,
which is closely related genetically.
******************

That's right, folks! You too can be a monkey's uncle!

[Personally, I think the second article above is nothing more than a
Vilani plot to stop the Solomani genetics program. Ah, where's SolSec
when you need 'em?]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 98 12:32:27 -0700
From: Tim Carroll <timc@apple.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller notes

Here's some notes that I wrote up a year or two ago, when I was working on some GURPS Traveller pieces.  One of the things I was trying to do is flesh out the various careers in detail -- enough so that someone who was making a character with points (rather than dice) would have some context to put their characters in.  Much of this context was based on the career tables, and bits and pieces of other descriptions.

Another piece, never finished, would have been to use a character quiz (from Amber) to help the players flesh out their characters.

Anyway, enjoy!
Tim




Skills
Most Traveller skills map directly to one or more GURPS skills. For example, Guns in Traveller maps to either Guns, Gunnery or Beam Weapons.

In some cases, a Traveller skill also acts as an equivalent in other skills; for example, Computers can also act as Robot Ops-1. I usually list both skills under the GURPS listing.
Computer Operations in GURPS refers to actually operating the computer.  Electronics Operation (Computers) is a more sophisticated version of this skill, including hardware expertise and so on. A typical sysop would have Electronics Operation (Computers) at a high skill level.

Admin     Administration, Fast Talk
Artisan     Artist (p. B47)
Battle Dress     Battlesuit (p. B49), Vacc Suit (p.B69)
Bribery     Fast Talk
Broker     Accounting, Merchant
Combat Engineering     Engineering (Combat), p. B60
Communications     Electronics Ops (Communications), p. B58
Computer     Electronics Ops (Computers), Computer Programming
Disguise     Disguise, Acting
Engineering     Mechanic (different drive types), 
Fleet Tactics     Tactics (Fleet), Strategy (Fleet)
Forward Observer     
Grav Belt     Piloting (Grav Belt)
Gravitics     Electronics Ops (Gravitics)
Guard/Hunting Beasts     Animal Handling
High-G Environ     Improved G-Tolerance (advantage)
Instruction     Teaching
Interview     Detect Lies
Intrusion     Lockpicking, Pickpocket, Electronics Ops Security
Jack-Of-All-Trades     No equivalent
Legal     Law
Liaison     Savoir Faire, Fast Talk, Psychology, Detect Lies, Diplomacy, Xenology
Mechanical     Mechanic, Armoury
Naval Architect     Starship Building (GURPS Space)
Navigation     Astrogation, Electronics Ops (Sensors)
Persuasion     Bard/Public Speaking
Pilot     Pilot (Starship)
Recon     Stealth, Survival
Recruiting     Detect Lies, Law, Fast Talk??????
Robotics     Electronics, Engineering or Mechanic
Screens     Electronics Ops (Screens)
Sensor Ops     Electronics Ops (Sensors)
Ship Tactics     Tactics (Ship)
Steward     Savoir Faire, Psychology, Detect Lies
Survey     Planetology, Electronics Ops (Sensors)
Robot Ops     Computer Ops
Trader     Merchant
Zero-G Environment     Free Fall




Advantages and Disadvantages
Status
Characters can have status on a local level, or as a result of being in the Imperial Nobility.  In general, local status will never go above a level of 4 or 5.  An Imperial Knight would be Status 3, while anyone of Imperial Rank has a status of at least a 4.

Military Rank
Military rank applies to active military officers.  Characters who are in the reserves can purchase rank for 1/3 of normal cost, but could be called up for duty at any time.

Characters presently servicing in the military should purchase a Duty  they must obey the orders of their superior officers.  Hazardous Duty is reasonably for characters at wartime.  Imperial commandos may always purchase a hazardous duty.

There are rank listings for each service later on in this document.

Patrons
Patrons are common in the Traveller universe; Imperial Nobles, merchants, former military officers, and the like.

Reputations
The Traveller universe has always been about characters with real backgrounds  experiences in one of the military services, or perhaps as a merchant.  In addition to the skills one learns, one also may acquire reputations.  Military characters who have acquired medals for their actions should purchase these as improved reputations:

Starburst for Extreme Heroism (+4 Reaction)
Medal for Conspicuous Gallantry (+2 Reaction)
Meritorius Conduct Under Fire (+1 Reaction)

In addition, a recipient of medals may also have gained status, especially if they were knighted.



Common Skills
Most characters pick up a few basic skills during their youth or in their first years in a particular career.  For example, most characters will learn to pilot a vehicle, which translates to Drive (Ground Vehicle) at lower tech levels, and Pilot (Grav Vehicle) for characters from higher tech worlds.  In addition, most characters from high tech worlds will have at least a half-point in Computer Operation.  Characters from vacuum worlds should have at least a couple of points in Vacc Suit skill.  Characters from careers that deal with starships should have at least a half point in Vacc Suit.

Other examples are entirely possible.  For example, on a colony world with many predators, characters may have learned Guns skill at an early age.  (e.g. Deathworld by Harry Harrison).



Navy
Naval characters have served in one of three different types of fleets.
Planetary fleets are based around large population centers, as most other worlds cannot afford their own personal navies.  While small, these navies usually have a proud tradition.  Most planetary fleets are composed of system defense boats and other non-jump capable ships, but planets with larger navies will also have a few interstellar ships.

Subsector fleets are where most characters serve.  These navies perform customs inspections and watch for invasions or piracy.  In war, subsector fleets are often used to reinforce the imperial fleets.

Finally, the Imperial Fleet is the most prestigious place to serve in the Imperial Forces.  The Imperial Navy has rigorous requirements, and few are accepted into service.  Imperial naval units are generally built and maintained using the best technology available in the Imperium.

All of the naval services are fairly selective in who they allow into their ranks.  This is especially true of Officers; while the Navies require enough personnel to fill the enlisted ranks, they are extremely selective about who becomes a Naval Officer.  Most Naval Officers come from academies, but enlisted personnel with the correct breeding (or the right connections) can also be commissioned.  

Naval captains or admirals wield vast amounts of power, both literally (in the case of starships), and politically.  Even after retirement, an Imperial Captain or Admiral has the connections and political clout to make deals and influence people.

*****In Traveller, it was difficult to receive a commission without a high Soc.  It was impossible to get into naval academies without a high Soc.  However, if you stayed in the career long enough, you probably received a number of bonuses to Soc  this was particularly true for Captains and Admirals, who could receive the bonuses as part of their benefits.*****
 
Naval Academy
Naval Academies are for the best and brightest individuals in Imperial society. Many current and former members of the Navy sit on the review board that decides who will be admitted into the academy.  In reality, only individuals with the "proper breeding" are allowed into the Academy.  Even that is often not enough due to the difficult tests that candidates are required to complete.

A Naval Graduate receives a rigorous education in the arts and sciences, with specific attention placed on military history and the technical sciences, math, and skills practical to their career.  Part of the students time is spent on board ship, as a midshipman, learning the difficulties of command from existing Naval officers.  *****Improve IQ, engineering, mechanical and electronics skills, vacc suites, astrogation*****

Students who survive the academy are commissioned as officers and placed into service. Those who graduate with honors often choose to attend flight or medical schools.  Naval pilots are perhaps the most prestigious position one can have in the Navy.  

*****Flight school graduates should have extensive skills in astrogation and piloting, while those who graduate from Medical school should take Electronics Ops (Medical) and other medical skills at a very high level. *****

Naval Life
The Navy encourages their personnel to "expand their own horizons" and to explore their potential.  Often this encouragement is subtle, when an Officer occasionally actually notices one of the Navy enlisted personnel with the proper skills to go places.  This encouragement is less frequent for those from local social ranks, except for the most extraordinary of individuals.

Petty Officers and Officers tend to have better access to training resources; officer or POs with 20 years of experience tend to have very broad educations.

Navy Life skills: Brawling, Carousing, Gambling, Vacc Suit

Shipboard Duties: Any character on board a ship is likely to learn some of these skills:   Gambling, Hand to Hand combat (formal training or brawling), Mechanic, Pilot (Small Boat), Zero-G Environment, Electronics Operations (Communications), Administration

Shore Duties: Ground or Grav Vehicle skills, Forward Observer, Savoir Faire, Fast Talk, Psychology, Detect Lies, Diplomacy, Xenology, Battle Dress

Petty Officers: Blade Combat, Gun Combat, First Aid or Medical Skills, Teaching, Savoir Faire, Fast Talk, Psychology, Detect Lies, Diplomacy, Xenology

Staff Officers are Officers serving in a non-Command role: Computer Ops or Programming, Electronics, Science skills, Ship Tactics and Fleet Tactics.  Tactics and Strategy are particularly important for higher ranking officers.

Command Officers are officers serving in a command role -- the Captain or XO of a ship, for example.  Common skills are Piloting (Starship or Ships boat), Leadership, and Ship Tactics.  In addition, characters placed frequently in command ranks tend to gather personal power and increases of social stature. More than any other career path, a high rank and command rank rapidly give an increase in social status.

Branch Skills
Most naval characters are assigned to a particular branch when they enlist and thats the branch that they stay in.  Most Noble families and other families with a lot of pull can generally get their child assigned to a branch of their choice.  Most people never leave their branch unless they received special cross training in another branch.

Crew/Line: This is a generalized duty branch onboard ship.  Common skills include Mechanic, Electronics, Gun Combat, Astrogation, and Electronic Ops (Computers) as well as Computer Programming.

Flight: Some members of the flight branch are graduates of a specialized flight school.  These are generally the cream of the crop (usually requiring high marks at the Naval Academy).  Pilot (Small craft or starship) is emphasised, but other skills include: Administration, Electronics Ops (Communications or Sensors), Astrogation, and Mechanic (Maneuver or Jump drives).

Gunnery: Forward Observer, Gun and Gunner skills, Electronics Ops (Sensors and Computers), and (rarely), Battle Dress, Combat Engineering, Demolitions, Zero G Environ,Stealth, High G Environmental tolerance, Grav Belt and so on.

Engineering: Mechanical and Electronics skills of all kinds are emphasized, but especially skills related to ships drives.

Medical: Graduates of one of the medical schools are are automatically enrolled here.  In addition to learning other medical skills, Administration, Electronics Ops (Medical and Computer), Electronics (Computers) and (rarely) more extensive training in other forms of electronics gear.

Technical:Like the engineering branch, but no training in ships drives, and more emphasis on other kinds of electronics.


Special Duties

Special duties are rare, but can allow enlisted personnel that break to become an Officer, and can also provide extensive training outside ones branch.

Enlisted

Cross training is basic training in another branchs primary skills, and also allows that person to elect to change branches at the end of a 4-year term.

Specialist schools give advanced training in Mechanics, Electronics and engineering disciplines.  In addition, educated characters may be able to take additional classes in the arts and sciences, medical skills, computer programming, Savoir Faire, Fast Talk, Psychology, Detect Lies, Diplomacy, Xenology, and most space skills.

Gunnery school gives extensive training in ships gunnery of all types.
Engineering School will usually train in Electronics and Mechanical skills across the board. 

OCS makes an enlisted man an officer in their current branch or one that they have crosstrained in.

Officers
Intelligence School: Intelligence school graduates learn a variety of skills, including forgery, gun combat, interpersonal skills, Streetwise, Interrogation and Intelligence Analysis.  Many officers trained by an intelligence school are pulled from normal duty and made into dedicated Naval agents.

Naval Attaches learn a lot about the workings of the empire and are often placed on the "fast track" towards a command position, often increasing in rank over officers who might be better qualified.  Normally, an officer is expected to fill their their current rank for at least a term before being advanced again.

Naval Aides to an Admiral often can use the Admirals pull to get their pick of assignments.  Like the attache, they often learn the way the empire really works.

Command College assignments give a firm grounding in the latest of naval strategy and tactics, both on a ship and fleet level.  In addition, leadership skills and administrative skills are taught, grooming the character for a command position on a starship.

Staff college assignments give a more rounded set of naval skills, including diplomacy, xenology, fleet tactics and strategy, administration, computers, psychology and detect lies.


Scouts
The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service is a major service within the Imperium, equal in stature to the Imperial Army and the Imperial Navy, although assigned a variety of unique, primarily non-military missions.  Its duties include exploration of the Imperial frontiers, on-going mapping and survery of Imperial territory, and the maintenance of interstellar communications through its express boat network.  

Background
In the last century before the end of the Long Night, the Sylean Federation began its coalescence into a powerful empire A major force in this move into interstellar space was the Sylean Federation Scout Service.  The SFSS was established with two main missions: first, the exploration of neighboring regions for the consequent contact or recontact of their inhabitants; and second, the use of advanced Sylean technology to lure these contacted planets into the growing Federation.

Largely due to the efforts of the Scouts, the Sylean Federation rapidly turned into an empire  the Third Imperium.  The Sylean Federation Scout Service became the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service: the IISS.

With the passage of time, however, the missions of the Scout Service have evolved into different pursuits.  The original assignment of recontact soon turned to one of actual discovery and exploration of new, unknown worlds.  With the maturity of the Imperium, that mission lost importance, and newer ones have taken its place.  In any analysis, the Scout Service is a survivor, changing its missions and evolving its structure in order to maintain its numbers and (some cynically say) its budget.

Scout Service Organization
In order to handle the great diversity of missions assigned to it, the Scout Service is organized into a variety of offices.  These offices are themselves further divided into branches (or sometimes services), each responsible for a specific mission or duty.  The Imperial Scout Service Organization diagram shows the basic structure of the Scout Service with its many offices and branches.  Placed in authority over the several offices is a central command structure (called Headquarters) which provides overall control of the Scout Service.  Because Headquarters controls the operations of the entire Scout Service throughout the Imperium, it is concerned primarily with policy and administrative detail, rather than the accomplishment of specific missions, and is rarely more than a distant office providing instructions and direction to the service.

The offices of the Scout Service are divided into the Bureaucracy (a standard, structured establishment) and the Field (an informally structured group of individuals who accomplish many of the goals of the service.  The Bureaucracy is strict and governed by regulations; the Field is unconventional and flexible.

Because some of the missions of the Scout Service are best handled by the individualistic type of person, the overall structure of the Scouts allows their inclusion in the service.  Three offices in the Scout Service (the Exploration Office, the Communications Office, and the Survey Office) comprise the Field, and are loosely organized without formal rank or position for their members.  Individuals hold temporary positions (such as ship captain, team leader, project head) based on their record and suitability for the job.  These offices make use of the individual Scout without restricting his or her freedom of action.  Where necessary, the Operations Office provides control and direction for these three Field offices.

The remainder of the Scout Service is the more traditionally organized Bureaucracy.  The offices in the Bureaucracy provide the rigidly controlled supervision and structure that is necessary in any large organization.

Offices and Branches
Within the various offices of the Scout Service, the branches are responsible for specific duties which accomplish the missions of the office.

The Administration Office contains the bureaucracy that keeps the IISS functioning smoothly.  Its three branches are: Personnel, Finance, and Procurement.
Personnel is responsible for the service records of Scouts and ex-Scouts, for recruiting, hiring, and retirement, and for personnel transfers between branches.  It manages the careers of the members of the Scout Service.
Finance is responsible for all fiscal matters, including payroll for Scouts (salaries, pensions, bonuses, and other rewards) and payment for goods and services procured for the service.


Creating Scout characters
While the Bureaucracy is much like any other organization, the Field branches of the Scout service offer roles to social misfits and other characters that dont exactly fit into the conventional mold of Imperial Society.  This does not mean that they accept psychopaths into their ranks, but they are more likely to take someone who is a bit odd....

Members of the field branch do not have Military Rank or Status; instead, they are assigned roles on a per-mission basis.

The Bureaucracy consists of Administrators and those of "ordinary" rank, the equivalent of enlisted personnel in other services.  Other than the occasional transfer from the field branches, most Bureaucracy members are college graduates, and only some of them become administrators for the Scouts.

All members of the field branch learn Piloting (Starship) in their first year of service, while members of the Bureaucracy are likely to learn other skills, as per the following list:
Detached Duty: Administration
Technical: Computer Programming, Electronics Ops (Computer)
Operations: Leadership
Administration: Administration

Scouts of all sorts are given opportunities to improve themselves, either through education, training and fitness programs.  Outside of their profession, Scouts tend to come in contact with all forms of society.  Most skills learn some experience with weapons and hand to hand combat, along with the occasional vice like Gambling or Carousing.  Scouts also tend to be in excellent physical condition.

Members of the field branch are likely to be exposed to a variety of skills, but the field branch is especially good at training in technical skills (Electronics Operations of all kinds, but especially Sensors, Robotic skills, Electronics, Computer Programming), general education, and also in bringing out natural abilities in its members.  In GURPS, a high IQ makes sense for a scout just because of the variety of experiences that character is likely to have had.

Members of the bureaucracy will typically learn Computer skills, Administration, Streetwise and the like.  Administrators tend to get advanced levels of Administration, additional Scientific experience, Vacc Suit, Savoir Faire, Fast Talk, Psychology, Detect Lies, Diplomacy, Xenology, Leadership and other interpersonal skills.

Branch Profiles
The types of skills a scout is likely to learn are dependent on which branch of the scouts they are in.  Scouts in any of the branches are likely to service in the occasional special mission (e.g. First contacts) and wartime scouting.  During the 5th Frontier War, many scouts were pulled from their original duties and assigned to the Navy as couriers, scouting forces and so on.

Wartime and Special missions often bring out the best in individuals, and give characters opportunities to learn just about any kind of skill imaginable.  Common skills include just about any space skill (Astrogation, Mechanics (drives), Piloting, Electronics Ops -Sensors), Outdoor and Animal skills, Savoir Faire, Fast Talk, Psychology, Detect Lies, Diplomacy, Xenology.

Exploration Branch characters tend to get a lot of experience piloting vehicles and starships of all kinds, also learning outdoor skills, Leadership, and most space skills, including Mechanic (Drives), Electronic Ops (Sensors), Astrogation and others.

Communications Branch characters are trained extensively in space skills,. Expecially piloting and astrogation.  Because a member of the Communications branch is usually on their own, they are taught a variety of space skills.

Survey Branch characters learn some of the same skills as the exploration branch, but spend more of their time on planet, learning wilderness skills, and skills important to surveying a planet, such as Planetology, Xenobiology and other sciences.

Administrative Branch learn Computer Programming, Administration, Electronics, science and history, along with interpersonally skills such as Savoir Faire, Fast Talk, Psychology, Detect Lies, Diplomacy

Operations branch members learn a variety of vehicular skills, Mechanic (starship drives), Gun skills, Shipss Gunnery, navigation, and even ship combat.  Security branch members will often receive extensive combat training.

Members of the technical branch will usually have extensive scientific and technical backgrounds, along with Teaching skills, Medical skills and so on.  Most of its members are constantly learning more so that they can pass on this information to new recuits, but a number of its members are older field scouts transferred from active duty before their skills are lost.

Detached Duty members learn computer skills, administration, and other similar skills.  Members of the intelligence branch will learn all of these and also many of the thief/spy skill, combat skills, and so on.



Schools
The Education Branch of the Technical Services Office is responsible for pulling together the information the scout service provides to the imperium along with the extensive training they provide to scouts.  Many scouts will be sent to extensive training courses on special topics, while scouts with very extensive skills may be asked to teach one of these classes to younger students (Teaching skill).

Ship School offers extensive training on all shipboard operations, including Piloting, Astrogation, Mechanics (Ships Drives), Ships Gunnery, Vacc Suit, Free Fall,Electronics Ops (Sensors) and so on.  Graduates of the ship school program often receive well rounded training in all of the skills of the program with skills emphasised based on the talents of the individal Scout.

Intelligence School is primarily used by the security branch and the Intelligence Branch to train agents to protect the empire.  Commonly emphasized skills include Disguise, Acting, Streetwise, Personal combat skills, wilderness skills, and any other applicable thief/spy skill.

Technology School is a shorter course, usually focusing on a few individual skills rather than a well rounded instructional course. Just about any form of electronics, computer or engineering skill may be taught, including courses on Starship design.

Field Training is usually a short course in the field with an experienced older scout, working in smaller teams on a planet.  Survey skills, low tech and high tech navigation, survival skills, and vehicle operation (including grav belts) are all commonly taught.  Most skills will be brought up into to a minimum skill (12?) in such a program.

Contact School is an extensive one year program on first contract procedures, including many examples roleplaying against invented or rare species.  Survey and survival skills are taught, along with extensive training in linguistics, xenobiology, xenolinguistics, Savoir Faire, Fast Talk, Psychology, Detect Lies, Diplomacy.  Most students of such a class will get a basic grounding in most of the skills and specialize in one or two critical skills.

Specialist Schools are shorter, more specialized courses with an expert in the field, including skills in Medicine, most scientific skills, advanced sensor operation, robotics.  These are usually intended to give the character a very solid grounding in the theory of a skill, along with some practical knowledge.






Marine
Marines specifically refers to the Imperial Marines.  Imperial Marines are equipped at the highest tech levels that the Imperium can offer, and are trained in boarding ships, dropping onto planets from space, and acting as the Imperiums primary shock troops.  Unlike planetary armies, where the Imperium provides assistance and (rarely) money, the Marines are funded directly by Imperial Taxes.

The Marines have two primary roles in the Imperium.  During times of peace, the Marines are primarily responsible for ensuring that the Imperial Rules of Warfare are maintained.  The Rules of Warfare are more guidelines than anything else, but are applied to prevent mass destruction between opposing elements on a planet, and also to prevent outside parties from providing massive assistance to one side or another of a conflict.  Essentially, the Imperium doesnt police warfare unless the warfare gets out of hand, and then they send in Marines to pacify the situation...quickly.  Since most planets have neither the technology or the experienced troops to effectively deal with Imperial Marines, they are more often than not successful at their job.

In times of War, the Imperial Marines are the primary strike arm of the ground forces, trained to move in, secure critical planetary facilities quickly and keep moving, leaving mop-up operations to 2nd line troops, such as Planetary and Imperial Armies.  (See Army career for more details).

Greater than 90% of Imperial Marines troops (not including support units) are deployed with Grav Tanks, APC and Moble artillery pieces.  The remaining 10% include drop troops and Imperial Commandoes, both some of the highest trained units in existence anywhere.

Common Skills:
All Marines are taught extensive personal weapons training, usually in Gauss Rifles or high energy (FGMP) weapons.  Personal combat training with the Cutlass is a tradition in the Marines, and many marines will have both ceremonial and practical skill with the blade.  Few marines outside of the commandoes learn any other blade weapons.  Gambing, brawling and other similar skills come with the military lifestyle.

Marines primarily involved in Infantry actions (including ships troops) will receive extensive training in Gun skills, Free Fall, Battle Suit and heavy weapons, including vehicular weapons.  Many marines will also learn forward observer skills.

Ships troops often learn ship-board skills as per naval personnel, and will often receive training in Piloting (Ships Boat), Starship Gunnery, and additional Vacc Suit training.

Non-infantry units include vehicular crews, medics, techs and so on.  Common skills include Piloting (Grav Vehicles), combat engineering, repair skills (mechanical and electronics), Medical skills and Computer Programming.

Non Commisioned Officers (NCOs) -- usually career soldiers -- are the Marines best method of keeping the traditions of the Marines alive -- and making sure that every Marine receives adequate training.  NCOs will have higher levels of skill in all of the common skills, along with additional heavy weapons training, Tactics, Leadership, Teaching and Administration.

Higher ranking officers will often receive great social benefits, as the Marines are almost as respected a tradition as the Navy.  Staff officers handle the logistics of all marine units, and will receive training in technical skills, computers, teaching, and administration.

Command officers are usually experienced in combat, and will receive leadership skill, Strategy and Tactics, along with many of the same infantry and support skills.

Special Assignments
In addition to cross training between the two main groups of Marines, the Marines also provide specialist training in Medical skills, Communications, Electronics and other technical skills.  

Protected Forces Training is an extensive training course in skills for Ships Troops, and a person sent to this specialist school will usually spend a few years working as a part of a Ships complement, passing their training on to other, less trained troops.  Protected Forces training results in very high levels of Free Fall and Vacc Suit skills, along with training in zero-G weapons.

While all marines receive training in free-fall from orbit, Jump Troops receive extensive training in infantry weapons, battle dress, and drop skills, and are usually the first troops dropped in an invasion -- being used with support from orbit to open holes for other, heavier troops to drop into.

Finally, Imperial Commandoes receive the best (and most expensive) training the Imperium can provide (see GURPS Special Ops perhaps), learning very high skills in martial arts, guns, demolitions, survival skills, stealth, vacc suits, battle dress, knives, and teaching.  Once a member of the marine is sent through commando training, he is usually encouraged to join the commandoes -- and given the elitism and prestige of such units, it is a rare Marine who doesnt join!

Commandoes have a few primary roles in the Imperial Military.  First, commandos are staged on critical Imperial worlds that are likely to come under attack in a war with exernal powers, such as the Zhodani or Solomani.  These commandos have extensive experience with that particular enemys tactics, and their primary job is to train up indigeonous troops to slow down enemy offensives.  When other troops are in the area, these troops will also spy on enemy movements and report as much as possible on the enemy.

Offensively, commandos will often be dropped as early as possible, using as much stealth as possible.  These troops will infiltrate and work to report on enemy movements and units, but especially to determine the locations of ground based defenses -- and these same units are often tasked with taking out such units at the beginning of the main ground invasion.    Because of the sheer impossibility of sneaking these troops in without being detected, these troops often have an impossible job.

Officers sent to a specialist school will often receive diplomatic training or extensive training in technical or space skills, including Savoir Faire, Fast Talk, Psychology, Detect Lies, Diplomacy, Xenology, Piloting, Navigation, and other "naval" skills.


Army
In contrast with the Marines, Armies in the Imperium are primarily local forces raised, trained and equipped exclusively by a particular Imperial planet.  While these planets will mostly use local technology, most will also purchase small numbers of high tech weapons from off world.  In times of war or internal conflict, many planets will supplement their normal troops with mercenaries.

Most subsectors also receive subsidies from the Imperium to train ground troops independently of both Imperial Marines and local troops.  These troops are usually equipped at a high TL (13+), although their training and equipment is usually not up to those of the Imperial Marines.  These units are primarily used to reinforce or garrison worlds, -- these troops are usually not trained extensively in planetary invasions, but usually more as defensive units on a planet.

Most armies are divided into three main force commands: Close Orbit and Airspace Control Command (COACC), Nautical Force Command and Ground Force Command.  This section primarily deals with Ground Force command -- for more information on the skills common to the other branches, see the Flyer and Sailor branches.  Marines exclusively use grav vehicles, and thus do not differentiate between the services. At higher tech levels, many armies do not separate the flyer branch from the Cavalry branch.

Army units are primarily divided Artillery, Cavalry (Armor), and Infantry, although larger armies will usually recruit and train commandos (with skill sets much like those of the marines).

Like the Marines, all Army troops will receive gun combat training (weapon types varying by TL).  Brawling and gambling are common skills picked up by the common soldier.

Artillery units receive extensive training in Indirect Fire weapons, Vehicle skills, Forward Observer, Computers, and Electronics.

Cavalry units will receive extensive skills in Vehicle skills, Heavy Weapons, Mechanic and Computers -- the specific weapons depending on the planets TL.

Infantry will usually receive addition guns and heavy weapons training, along with stealth, and survival skills and (rarely) vehicle and Vacc Suit skills.

Non Commisioned Officers (NCOs) -- Like the Marines, most planetary armies rely on experienced NCOs to pass on military skills to new recruits -- and especially to young lieutenants!  NCOs will have higher levels of skill in all of the common skills, along with additional heavy weapons training, Tactics, Leadership, Teaching and Administration.

High ranking officers are respected members of the local planets society.  Staff officers will receive training in technical skills, computers, teaching, and administration, while command officers are usually experienced in combat and have Leadership skill, Strategy and Tactics, along with many of the same infantry and support skills.

Specialist schools are much like those of the Marines, although very few army units have specialists in planetary drops or Protected Forces.  Highly skilled individuals will often be recruited to train new soldiers, and thus learn teaching skill.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #372
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, April 6 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 373



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [T98#353] RFC: Lasers/Fiber Optics
I:E commandoes
Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #372
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #372
Re: Artificial Intelligence
[Fwd: CDs, Esp Free Ones] to attn. of MM
Re: Imperial Squadrons
Re: [T98#353] RFC: Lasers/Fiber Optics
Re: Milieu Zero - Economics
Re: Philosophy
Zhunatsu School of Contact
Re: Milieu Zero - Economics
Rob's Conversion rules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:52:14 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: [T98#353] RFC: Lasers/Fiber Optics

On Sun, 5 Apr 1998 07:41:57 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) writes:

>> I asked this question of my roommate (a B.S. Physics), in the
>> form "Fiber Optic Conduit - Laser - Discharge - Possible?".  He
>> indicated that he does not see it as possible; if the laser can
>> be conducted, it probably would be too weak to do anything; if
>> it's strong enough to do anything, it will probably vaporize the
>> conduit.
>>
>> Now, that's strictly an issue of heat dissipation; if you can
>> sensibly handwave a conduit material that's 99.99999....%
>> efficient at dumping waste heat, or if you can cryofreeze the
>> conduits, you might be able to pull it off.  Or, if you have a
>> massively high temperature superduperconductor.  But those will
>> tend to unbalance things somehow; someone will always figure out
>> a use for it that wasn't forseen.
>
>The simplest "unanticipated" use for it will be as a "coating" on
>starship hulls to render them impervious to laser fire. :-)
>

Hmmm, good points.  Looks like that won't appear in my campaign.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+
You might be a Traveller player if....You let your car roll out of the
driveway in neutral until you are far enough away to engage your drive.

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:58:05 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: I:E commandoes

>>For the record, Inv: Earth gives _both_ sides TL14 troops counters.  The
>>Imperial forces are broken down as to Regulars, Colonials, etc., but no
>>such distinction is made for the Solomani counters.  (Exactly why I
>>stated that the claim that Earth was TL13 was, well, an exaggeration.)
>
>   This fits nicely with establish canon.  I'm not sure what the problem
>is here.  While it is possible that the Imperium and Solomani had some
>TL 15 commandos or other small elite formations, at the scale the game
>is conducted, they would not have been a factor in the fighting (or
>would have been lumped in with a lower tech formation).

  This came up several months ago. However, both commando units (regiment
- -sized raiders) and rules (ignore ZOC's/occupied hexes) are covered, and
none are TL 15. Also, while Terra can churn out replacement armies at TL
14, not even a few thousand TL 15 lift infantry kits can be produced.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:58:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking

>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
...
>The difference between theory and reality is pretty big.  If NASA or some
>Japanese or European business started a base or colony on the moon, do you
>think anyone would look up the moon the same way again?

  Aren't we sort of ignoring the moon landings? A great revolutionary
change, etc., and pretty much nobody cares anymore, within 30 years.

...
>I'm not sure I agree with this sentiment.  The effect of jet airliners is
>profound even to those who can't afford to fly in them.  Look at the term
>"jet set", which is still a term in common usage to refer to those whose
>lifestyles afford them the luxury.  The term isn't as popular as it was
>throughout the 1960s and 1970s, but it still persists.

  Less important than steam-liners or railroads. Also less important than
the telegraph (let alone radio, phones, com-sats, or the internet).

>I'm not talking about direct effect here.  I'm talking a shift in the way
>people feel.  The emergence of efficient air travel in the 1930s had a
>definite effect on the way people thought, despite the fact that very few
>people could afford it.  The cultural record from the two-fisted adventure
>pulps where Doc Savage would fly off to, say Germany, and then, say the
>heart of South America indicates that there was a very definite shift. 
>Further, the popularity of the mysteries of Africa and Asia during this
>same period I think further indicates the kind of thing I'm talking about.

  I'm not qualified to say. Popular culture is hard to quantify, but I
don't recall seeing much evidence of real change in attitudes.

>No, I'm talking here about a more fundamental change.  The knowledge that
>stars are places as opposed to lights in the sky.  We can theoretically
>look at these lights and imagine alien worlds orbiting different suns
>because we're fans of science-fiction.  However, the truth of the matter
>is, until some method of reaching them is developed that allows us to visit
>them they just remain lights in the sky.

  If any sort of correlation can be drawn with previous changes in world
view or communications technology, then any such change will only be one
factor in determining attitudes, and may make very little change to the
outlook of most people (even though their economic life may change
drastically).

  How many peoples views of the universe were radically changed by the
realization that the New World existed? Or Europe, for India and China?
You could tell Chinese how vast the world was, but China itself changed
very little until foreign intellectual influences lead to rapid change
in its political structure - a change which India hasn't really made.

>>   An arms race (space naval race, specifically) would be much faster, 
...
>Possibly.  We "know" that conflict breeds better technology and opens new
>vistas, but keep in mind that commercialization is another form of warfare.
> It's just (usually) not as violent.

  Of course, but most North American companies have too short a planning
horizon to invest heavily. As time might be short, this becomes relevent.
OTOH, a genuine need/want to achieve military (or prestige) aims will
happily ignore short term limitations.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:21:11 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #372

> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:53:47 -0700
> From: dberry@hooked.net
> Subject: Re: Milieu Zero - Economics
> 
> At 12:59 AM 4/6/98 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >  I didn't mind the cynicism, but the unlikelihood of eventual victims
> >not catching on bothered me. Logically, the contact school methods could
> >produce an equilibrium situation where the Imperium hits a border past
> >which _everyone_ has realized that the 3I is _bad_, and would do everything
> >possible to stop it. Even if conquest were still possibel, consolidation
> >would be extremely time-consuming - centuries long, quite possibly.
> 
> Which happened right about the time the Pacification Campaigns started,
> IMHO.

It took 80 years for the dupes to get a clue?  Ok, sure I have problems 
with the M:0 timeline (like Vland being a member of the Federation when 
Supplement 11 tells us that by 0 it reached the edge of Core sector - 
but then Supplement 11 also tells us that 60 years later LSP settled 
Mora - so Supplement 11 has it's own problems)...

Still - 80 years for the dupes to catch a clue is a bit long - esp. if the
Chanestin are spreading that info around like banshees (ok, sure the stuff
about Cleon's personal life might not be true, but look at the holovid of
his agents in the act!)

> ------------------------------

I accidentally deleted an excellent debate between Jo Grand and John 
(? - sorry, my apologies)...

I agree with John here, and repeat my question.  Did any M:0 author 
EVER run a strict M:0 campaign with these concepts?  Any single one of you?

> You can choose to believe that it is all bogus and won't work if you desire
> to. But it is consistent and self-supportive in the context given. You can
> just as easily choose to believe it.
 
Hmm...  Jo, stay out of marketing, ok?
 
> ------------------------------

Some excellent GURPS stuff presented.  Mind if I borrow that and put
it in HERO terms :)

(ok, so I'm a heretic too, ok?  I love the setting, and get annoyed with 
the combat/skill system).


DonM.

- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:21:11 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #372

> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:53:47 -0700
> From: dberry@hooked.net
> Subject: Re: Milieu Zero - Economics
> 
> At 12:59 AM 4/6/98 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >  I didn't mind the cynicism, but the unlikelihood of eventual victims
> >not catching on bothered me. Logically, the contact school methods could
> >produce an equilibrium situation where the Imperium hits a border past
> >which _everyone_ has realized that the 3I is _bad_, and would do everything
> >possible to stop it. Even if conquest were still possibel, consolidation
> >would be extremely time-consuming - centuries long, quite possibly.
> 
> Which happened right about the time the Pacification Campaigns started,
> IMHO.

It took 80 years for the dupes to get a clue?  Ok, sure I have problems 
with the M:0 timeline (like Vland being a member of the Federation when 
Supplement 11 tells us that by 0 it reached the edge of Core sector - 
but then Supplement 11 also tells us that 60 years later LSP settled 
Mora - so Supplement 11 has it's own problems)...

Still - 80 years for the dupes to catch a clue is a bit long - esp. if the
Chanestin are spreading that info around like banshees (ok, sure the stuff
about Cleon's personal life might not be true, but look at the holovid of
his agents in the act!)

> ------------------------------

I accidentally deleted an excellent debate between Jo Grand and John 
(? - sorry, my apologies)...

I agree with John here, and repeat my question.  Did any M:0 author 
EVER run a strict M:0 campaign with these concepts?  Any single one of you?

> You can choose to believe that it is all bogus and won't work if you desire
> to. But it is consistent and self-supportive in the context given. You can
> just as easily choose to believe it.
 
Hmm...  Jo, stay out of marketing, ok?
 
> ------------------------------

Some excellent GURPS stuff presented.  Mind if I borrow that and put
it in HERO terms :)

(ok, so I'm a heretic too, ok?  I love the setting, and get annoyed with 
the combat/skill system).


DonM.

- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:43:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence

 
Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>:
> An argument could be made that Virus is the end result of a tech-17
> research project gone wrong.  After all, there's a lot of worlds at
> tech-16 in the Massilia and Core area, and a couple of other AI
> research projects mentioned (that automatic starport wasn't that far
> away in Core, as I recall).

	Automatic starport?  Where is this mentioned?  Can you imagine a 
Virus-controlled automatic starport banging out purpose-built Vampires?  
So that's what the Black Curtain is made of!
 
- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 20:59:09 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: [Fwd: CDs, Esp Free Ones] to attn. of MM

Something i just read on the Gurps List, which may also have relevance to Traveller...
Just change SJG to FFE (or next T4.1 publisher), Gurps to Traveller, etc.
My suggestion, give away T4 for free, as its going to be obsolete anytime soon anyway.
Then tell them to about T4.1 right on the CD. Arguments follow below:

Gregory Littmann wrote:
> 
>   I just got the latest copy of SHADIS and with it, a "free" CD
> containing the entire Earthdawn rulebook along with an adventure, a
> character generator, a catalog, and some net tools.
> 
>   I'm blown away.  Earthdawn interests me not at all as a game, but I
> think that if I were a clueless newbie out looking for a fantasy system,
> the CD would push me over the edge to buying Earthdawn.
> 
>   And if the free CD idea works with Earthdawn, how much *more*
> appropriate is it to GURPS!  People are intimidated by the number of GURPS...Traveller...
> books they think they need to buy in order to play.  If SJG released the...FFE...
> Basic Set and Compendium I on an almost-free CD, people could just pick up...the old T4 Rulebook...
> a worldbook they find attractive and away they would go.  Besides - its...a milieu book or adventure, or other supplement...
> the basic stuff that gets you hooked: then you spend on worldbooks....ditto...
> 
>   Does this mean that no-one would buy the Basic Set and Compendium I if
> they have a CD drive?  I doubt it - although watching the sales of the
> Earthdawn rulebook should be interesting.  If people aren't seriously in
> to the system, they probably wouldn't buy the basic rules anyway.  And if
> they do get seriously into the system, they will eventually want the rules
> in easily-transportable form.  IMHO.
> 
>   I say TSR did it wrong.  Don't sell the basic books.  *Give* them away
> on a cheap format.  Get folks addicted.  Then reel them in.
> 
>   That's how they sell drugs, isn't it?

An interesting idea of getting new players, so i forwarded it to the list and MM.
How about it, Marc? T4 is outdated anyway, and it would be a great teaser for T4.1...

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 08:52:16 +1200
From: Raygun <raygun@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial Squadrons

A while back, somebody was inquiring about the merits of IS etc.  Several of you very
knowlledgable people wrote back your HO.  My question of the day concerns the (tenuous)
relationship between PE and IS.  Specifically how do the two tie together.  How can I use the
resource units in PE to fund units described in  IS?  Why did the IS authors come up with
production points when they already had resource units to play with?  Is there a conversion
between the two?

Secondly (!), I want to try a PE campaign where individual ships are designed (gearhead alert),
built and kept track of in formations such as sqns, fleets etc.  This is fine if you want to fight
every fleet engagment on the ship to ship scale outlined in T4 (right), however I think it would
be fabby is somebody had done a rating system that interlocks nicely with IS.  Every ship would
be rated on ATK/DEF and maybe strength (HP) in order to conduct large-scale actions for IS,
without using the arbitrary SQN values in the book.  This whole system would allow added
roleplaying as you could switch between low-level/large-scale ship cbt easily i nthe same campaign.
The added detail of a detailed star fleet just makes me go all wobbly-kneed.

Hope somebody is on the same wavelength (smart reply to be inserted here)

Cheers, Raygun

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 16:42:54 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [T98#353] RFC: Lasers/Fiber Optics

> >> I asked this question of my roommate (a B.S. Physics), in the
> >> form "Fiber Optic Conduit - Laser - Discharge - Possible?".  He
> >> indicated that he does not see it as possible; if the laser can
> >> be conducted, it probably would be too weak to do anything; if
> >> it's strong enough to do anything, it will probably vaporize the
> >> conduit.
> >>
> >> Now, that's strictly an issue of heat dissipation; if you can
> >> sensibly handwave a conduit material that's 99.99999....%
> >> efficient at dumping waste heat, or if you can cryofreeze the
> >> conduits, you might be able to pull it off.  Or, if you have a
> >> massively high temperature superduperconductor.  But those will
> >> tend to unbalance things somehow; someone will always figure out
> >> a use for it that wasn't forseen.
> >
> >The simplest "unanticipated" use for it will be as a "coating" on
> >starship hulls to render them impervious to laser fire. :-)
> >

It should be noted that gravitic focusing of lasers is essentially doing
just that.  You're creating a gravitic conduit for the laser.  However,
curiously enough, nobody's tried gravitically displacing the laser as a
defensive measure...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 14:19:51 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero - Economics

>>which _everyone_ has realized that the 3I is _bad_, and would do everything
>>possible to stop it. Even if conquest were still possibel, consolidation
>>would be extremely time-consuming - centuries long, quite possibly.
>
>Which happened right about the time the Pacification Campaigns started,
>IMHO.

  That could explain a lot, then.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:39:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Philosophy

> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 13:06:34 -0500
> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> 
> Actually, the message had it own built in logic inconsistencies.
> Note that I don't follow this opinion:
>
> God created the universe
> The universe is imperfect
> Thus God made a mistake
> Thus God is not perfect

Ah, my years spent learning from Jesuits *do* come in handy.  They would
answer this argument by stating that God is unknowable in thought and
action, and we are unqualified to judge His works; thus, any imperfection
we see in the Universe is in ourselves, not in the Universe.  (This runs
into the thorny issue of the Original Sin and the Fall if you push it far
enough -- see Milton and Blake for two outstanding poetic treatments (from
opposite points of view) of the issues involved.)

> The argument then follows that God may have INTENTIONALLY made the universe
> imperfect.

Can a design executed flawlessly be said to be 'imperfect' in any
meaninfgul sense?  If one brick in a wall sticks out, and I *meant* that
brick to stick out, then if you see it as an imperfection, you are
mistaken with respect to my intention.  If I write a program such that it
crashes when handed a particular set of data, and I *know while I'm
writing it* that this is true, and I *want that to happen*, then it's not
an error.  This line of argument reduces to ascribing to God the
well-known programmer's maxim, "It's not a bug, it's a feature." :) 

> If that's true, then God is sadistic.
> Sadism is a character flaw

Uh oh.

> Thus God is not perfect
> 
> Personally I'd like to see a sci-fi apocolyptic novel that starts:
> ... on the fifth day, God created Man... That was his first mistake...

Seems to me I've seen something very much like that somewhere.

By the way, it's not SF, but I strongly recommend Neil Gaiman's _Good
Omens_ for any amateur theologians with a good sense of humor out there. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 20:51:48
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Zhunatsu School of Contact

I'll do a fuller reponse to Jo's post when I have more time, but the key
problems I see with it as a policy are

(1) it essentially requires worlds to be quarantined from other contact
efforts - how many free traders with a shipload of hi-tech goods would
hesitate before selling them to a newly contacted world,

(2) the assumption that newly-contacted worlds would create very low
volumes of trade is not supported by the available evidence - for example,
assume we have a TL4 world in a system with many worlds, one of which shows
up as mineral rich. It makes sense to me for outsiders to plant a mining
colony on that world, and to supply it via trade with the world with the
active biosphere.

(3) worlds of moderate technology (say, TL7-8) can produce goods that have
value to higher-tech worlds - the examples I am thinking of are nuclear
warheads and fuel cells for TL7 and fission power plants and det laser
warheads for TL8.

(4) worlds of lower technology are prospects for individuals with higher
technology - the 'man who would be king' syndrome (purchasing land or
political influence via small amounts of critical high technology - for
example, two radio transmitters, one at each end of a trade route, will let
an individual to make super-profits specualting on a TL 4- world).

In conclusion, the Imperium would find it very difficult to quarantine
newly contacted worlds from profitable contact with traders. Therefore, to
maintain the ZSC 

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:07:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero - Economics

Jo Grant writes: 
> John Macpherson writes...
> 
> I can tell from your response that you didn't actually read most of what I
> wrote. We are in agreement on most things.

	Actually, I did read your post very carefully and more than 
once.  While we may be in agreement on ends, I consider your means 
totally counter-productive.
	Look Jo, I said before that I don't want to get into a pissing 
contest over this.  You wrote the contact stuff for M0 and you're 
understandable defensive when people criticize your creation.  I'm going 
to respond to some of your statements and then I'm going to drop the 
subject.  If you want to discuss it further, please email me privately 
because I'll be signing off the TML.  I only resubscribed to hear what 
was going on with IG.  Now that it's pretty clear, I'm going to go back 
to working on background material for the TNE list.
 
> >My reading of M:0 was that Cleon was a greedy SOB who had
> >declared the 3I because it was a good business move.
> Which is what Marc said he was, more or less.
> 
> >I think this is a bit one-dimensional.
> No less 1-dimensional than some idealistic struck fairy-tale hero. Just a
> different dimension.

	The point of my rather lengthy discussion of RW political and 
business leaders was to give some examples of _actual_ people who were 
considerably more interesting than the card-board cut-out Cleon presented 
in M:0.  George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were not "idealistic 
struck fairy-tale heroes" they were real men who were principled, hugely 
influential, and yet were still merely flawed human beings.  A little of 
this would have gone a long way to making M0 a more interesting and 
believable setting.
 
> >Second, there are plenty of things that can be traded to these
> >worlds in exchange for their mineral wealth
> Bzzzt. Wrong. Read it again. It says very explicitly that trade is limited
> by _volume_. Stages are governed by what sort of volume of trade has been
> built up. In the first stages it is assuming that you have 50t of cargo
> going to and from the world twice per _year_. You can't shift all that
> extra high-tech stuff you suggest in that small a space.

	So if trade volume is limited to 100dt a year, how exactly are 
you going to export the mineral wealth of an entire planet?  
 
> >As for the gold-standard somehow being more stable or viable then
> >a freely floating currency, this is really something of a myth.
> It isn't so much that, but that the gold itself could be used by the world
> to buy stuff (like mercenaries) in an uncontrolled way.

	M0 makes a lengthy argument about the importance of debasing 
currency, so yeah, it is so much that.  
	As for worlds trading with people other than the designated
Imperial monopoly, this is going to happen and there's nothing the
Imperium can do about it. The 3I does not have the ships to blockade 
every planet, and it's simply not possible for them to rob people of 
everything worth trading, so Imperials who flout the law or non-Imperials 
who aren't bound by it are going to trade with folks out there.  That's 
not a bad thing since the Imperium is about free trade and protecting the 
space lanes.  Your 3I sounds like a totalitarian menace.  I say again, if 
this is the real Imperium, then bring on the Rebellion.
 
> >You seem to have the IMO mistaken notion that war builds
> >infrastructure.  In fact, it destroys it in huge volumes.
> I agree completely. Ancient infrastructure, though, is all but useless.
> England, for example, suffered no massive devastation to its roads and
> factories as a result of WWII. So in a post-war era they just sort of
> limped along with what they had. Germany, on the other hand, got to rebuild
> everything with the latest there was to offer. They came out a hell of a
> lot stronger.
> Similarly, by controlling a short war, the economic planners
> (manipulators?) of the Imperium can clean out all the old stuff that would
> otherwise hold them back from making modern, exportable items.

	The US also didn't suffer any devastation of its roads or 
factories and it still has very modern infrastructure.  If your old 
infrastructure is in the way then you tear it down.  I suppose one way of 
accomplishing this is to start a war and arrange for your enemies to 
level your country, but bull-dozers are likely to be more cost-effective.
	Starting a war to clear out old infrastructure is rather like 
burning down your house so that you can remodel the kitchen.

> >War is the fastest way to reduce a people to poverty ever devised.
> Perfect group for Imperial infrastructure development loans and grants.
> (Believe me, Ireland has made a bomb from these grants in the European
> Community!)

	You can't be serious.  Making people poor so that you can give 
them your charity?

> >Why not got straight to this without first trashing the planet
> >with wars, coups, financial chaos, etc.

	The above is pretty much the crux of my argument, so your 
response to it, below, is important.

> Because people won't invest in improvement unless they have to. Governments
> are unlikely to put themselves in massive foriegn debt (or take massive
> foriegn aid) to build things up to a level that they can't really see as
> necessary. They are far more interested in petty little tit-for-tat
> economic or political spats with their neighbours. This is the human
> condition. Look at the history of Europe. Ireland, in particular, _always_
> fought itself in preference to others. It wasn't till an outside Empire
> came in (the English) that any sort of unity developed.

	If the explosive economic growth experienced by countries around 
the world over the last 50 years is not evidence that people do want 
economic advancement and that governments are willing to aggressively 
pursue it, I don't know what is.
	If you want to argue that the people contacted by the Imperium are
heavily influenced by the Vilani and therefore are attached to the status
quo, be my guest.  But using the history of Europe as an example of
economic complacency just doesn't make sense. Your description fits 
countries like Iran and North Korea but not Europe.
 
> >As I've explained above, worlds will want to move to a currency
> >backed by the IC on their own because the IC will be more widely demanded
> >and more useful than gold, therefore it will be a more stable thing to
> >base one's currency on.
> Once they move to that mode of thinking. But if the Imperium had to wait
> for them to come to this conclusion it would be dead an buried.

	Interstellar economic trade will be based on the IC.  The 
economic logic is totally overwhelming and I don't think the Imperium 
could stop it if it wanted to.  The US is a much smaller economy relative 
to the rest of the world than the Imperium would be to any one planet.  
And yet a huge fraction of international trade is conducted in dollars.  
Many countries peg their exchange rate to the dollar and others back 
their currency not with gold but with dollars.  As for mindset, if you'd 
ever travelled in the Communist Bloc before the Wall came down, you'd 
have seen how desperate people are for hard currency.  The Imperial 
Credit will be the epitomy of hard currencies, backed by the interstellar 
trade of dozens and then thousands of worlds.  
 
> >Unless you are dealing with a totally xenophobic world that
> >refuses to see the benefits of interstellar trade, they'll want to open
> >their doors regardless.
> You haven't followed European Community development much, have you. The
> Imperium needs these worlds far more than those worlds think they need the
> Imperium.

	Actually, I do know a little bit about the EC, certainly more than
enough to tell you that the EC is a very poor model for the Imperium.  The
EC is made up of a small number of states, several of which are large
enough to be a big fraction of joint economic output.  The Imperium is
made up of a strong center and small, weak and fragmented periphery, which
it seeks to incorporate and is already able to totally dominate
economically.  The EC is attempting to create a new "supra-national" state
while the Imperium is little more than a customs union and collective
security arrangement.  The Imperium is the key to economic and
technological recovery for the worlds of the Outback while the EC is
nothing more than an umbrella for managing the interests of its member
states.  They have very little in common.  
	A better comparison would be the relationship between the US and 
Europe during the Marshall Plan.  Europe was economically puny and 
devastated while the US had an enormous economy and a technological lead. 
The Europeans accepted US rules on trade and finance along with our
economic aid.  The resulting free trade and economic growth resulted in
enormous prosperity on both sides of the Atlantic. 

> They then supply massive loads/aid to help them build their infrastructure
> up to modern levels so they can, finally, produce goods that can be traded
> on the export market.

	Gee, I thought they had all of this dangerous mineral wealth that 
could be traded on the export market.  Oh, that's right, you shipped it 
all off at 100dt a year.
 
> Given my present, personal experience of the European Community. No. Given
> the sort of problems we've had just trying to implement a Single European
> Currency I shudder to think the effort to come up with a Single World
> Currency!

	Actually, you already have a Single European Currency, it's 
called the Mark.  The Germans have been calling the shots on monetary 
policy on the Continent for some time.  The ECU will give other Europeans 
a voice in monetary policy that they haven't had up till now.  The 
Germans are worried about this because of their inflation phobia and the 
demonstrated inability of other governments to practice fiscal policy 
consistent with stable monetary policy.
	Again, this has very little to do with Traveller because the 
massive currency markets and trade ties that make this all so problematic 
for Europe won't be able to exist in a universe where transport and 
communication is limited by the speed of jump.
 
> My vision of the Outback,
> though, is closer to the TNE version of the Wilds. Mostly oppressive,
> balkanised, or primitive regimes.

	I think this is a big source of our disagreement.  The Wilds look 
the way they do because they collapsed totally and suddenly.  The Long 
Night was preceeded by at least a generation of twilight that resembled 
the Hard Times far more than the Virus-induced Collapse.  There was 
plenty of time for worlds to make adjustments without being reduced to 
total social collapse and rule by strong-men and despots.  Also, without 
the horror of the Final War and Virus, the technophobia and xenophobia 
that characterize the Wilds simply won't be present. Furthermore, the 
situation in the Long Night has had a millenia to stabilize, while the 
Wilds have only had a few decades to sort things out.

> Another reading, fitting in with how it is presented, could be that it is
> an Academic view as taught by arm-chair economic theorists in the Z.
> Merchant Academy on Sylea.

	Well, this arm-chair economic theorist thinks the plan is more 
likely to be from the fevered imagination of some politician who has read 
Machiavelli once too often.

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:40:30 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Rob's Conversion rules

Hi all,

I've just given my website a small spring clean and added a few items. If
anyone wants a copy of Rob Flammang's excellent HG to T4 conversion rules,
you can find them at:

http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #373
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 7 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 374



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller and Real World Technology
Random Characters
Good Omens
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #372
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Status of Imperium Games?
Re: Status of Imperium Games?
Re:Ship Forms
Re: Random Characters
Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking
Re: Status of Imperium Games?
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Nebulosity and Jump Drive
[Fwd: CDs, Esp Free Ones] to attn. of MM
Re: Artificial Intelligence
Re: T4 storyline
Re: Milieu Zero -- Economics
Re: Milieu Zero -- Economics
adventure idea
FAQ ERRORS (BITS & CORE) and a few other things

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:00:17 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

At 10:06 AM 4/6/98 -0500, you wrote:

>His technique, described in the science journal Nature, would involve
>mixing human cells with the cells of an animal -- perhaps a chimpanzee,
>which is closely related genetically.
>******************
>
>That's right, folks! You too can be a monkey's uncle!

Actually, there is a great amount of research bneing done along these lines
regarding geneticly acquired cancers.  Seems that some mammals have the
predisposition for the cancer (like Hodgkin's Lymphoma in pigs) but never
develop the disease.  Be interesting if we could isolate and transfer the
gene sequence that allows the immunity.

This, BTW, is why I don't mind much about disease and food compatability
for my adventurers.  Broad-based enhancements to the auto-immune system,
along with products to help humans digest odd food items, make travel far
safer.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:17:48 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Random Characters

> My players are opposed to randomly generated characters.  Does 
anyone have
> an experience with allowing player choice in T4 character
> generation?

I let my players "choose" their characters using the T4 rules.  All of
us also play Champions and Shadowrun.  Both these systems give you a
point total to spend.  So, you can basically create the character you
want.

With T4 I allowed the characters to simply pick the skills from the
tables, as long as the skill was in their career.  They were also
allowed to switch careers, with a -DM each time they did it (applied
to the enlistment).  This technique turned out pretty well.  The group
is surprisingly balance, since they had a good idea of how they wanted
their team to turn out.  They were able to compliment each others
skills this way.

I did however, make them roll randomly for their "homeworld" and
"background" skills (they just loved getting "equestrian" level 3)! 
Mustering out was also rolled (No, I'm sorry but you can't "pick"
scout ship 3 times).


Visit the Computer Profits Website
A wealth of information
http://www.computerprofits.virtual-spaces.com
James Pearson / Pearson Publishing
pearsonpub@computerprofits.virtual-spaces.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:18:27 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Good Omens

At 03:39 PM 4/6/98 -0700, Craig Berry wrote:
>By the way, it's not SF, but I strongly recommend Neil Gaiman's _Good
>Omens_ for any amateur theologians with a good sense of humor out there. 

I loved that one.  Was quite good, if a bit darker than the Discworld books.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:21:01 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

At 01:58 pm 4/6/98 +0800, you wrote:
>>Not under 3G3.  You are better of just making it a solid steel
dart.
>>>
> Umm '3G3'???
>
>Could you explain your pint again for me

	Well, my favorite pint would be Guiness, or perhaps Mackeson's
Triple Stout ...

	Oh, you mean "point," in reference to 3G3! 3G3 is the abbreviation
for "Guns! Guns! Guns!," written by Greg Porter, and available
electronically. It's a gearhead's wet dream for designing weapons,
and includes conversions to almost every reasonable game system out
there.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:30:00 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #372

At 03:21 PM 4/6/98 CDT, you wrote:

>> From: dberry@hooked.net

>> Which happened right about the time the Pacification Campaigns started,
>> IMHO.
>
>It took 80 years for the dupes to get a clue?  Ok, sure I have problems 
>with the M:0 timeline (like Vland being a member of the Federation when 
>Supplement 11 tells us that by 0 it reached the edge of Core sector - 
>but then Supplement 11 also tells us that 60 years later LSP settled 
>Mora - so Supplement 11 has it's own problems)...

Look at the enviroment.  Centuries of darkness finally lifting, trade
restarting, a new era has dawned!  If the money looks good, most leaders
aren't going to read the fine print.

>Still - 80 years for the dupes to catch a clue is a bit long - esp. if the
>Chanestin are spreading that info around like banshees (ok, sure the stuff
>about Cleon's personal life might not be true, but look at the holovid of
>his agents in the act!)

<Imperial Diplomat=ON>

"Those rumors?  My dear Benevolent Ruler for Life, they are the
mean-spirited whines of a defeated foe.  They couldn't best us on the
honest field of battle, so now the resort to these base charges.  Speaking
of battles, I believe I was pointing out that cedeing the space for a full
Naval base would allow us to bring in Marines to deal with the rebels.. I
agree it's alarming how rapidly they've built up their arms.  I suspect
those Chanestin bastards are smuggling arms to the insurgents.   Yes, your
Blinding Emminence, sign here.. and here... and over here..."

<Imperial Diplomat=OFF>
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 09:54:42 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

Thanks, and... I appologise for not being 'with the program', but BTRC?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 21:11:37 -0500
From: James Cook <jcook@net-serv.com>
Subject: Status of Imperium Games?

Greetings,

     On April 1, someone on the frp newsgroup forwarded a message, supposedly
from Mark Miller, saying that Imperium Games would no longer be publishing T4.
I'm sure that regardless of the truth of this, it has caused much discussion
on this list. I just subscribed, and would like to find out if this message is
true or not, as I am thinking about picking up T4. Any official confirmation or
denial of this would be appreciated.

     Also, according to Imperium Games' website, two supplements were released
that are no longer (or never were) available. These are Nobles, and Aliens Vol 1.
Did these items get released, and if so, why was the print run so small that they
are now unavailable?

Thanks,
James Cook

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 21:54:45 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Status of Imperium Games?

At 09:11 PM 4/6/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>     On April 1, someone on the frp newsgroup forwarded a message, supposedly
>from Mark Miller, saying that Imperium Games would no longer be publishing
T4.
>I'm sure that regardless of the truth of this, it has caused much discussion
>on this list. I just subscribed, and would like to find out if this
message is
>true or not, as I am thinking about picking up T4. Any official
confirmation or
>denial of this would be appreciated.
>
>     Also, according to Imperium Games' website, two supplements were released
>that are no longer (or never were) available. These are Nobles, and Aliens Vol 1.
>Did these items get released, and if so, why was the print run so small that they
>are now unavailable?

James,

I was one of those that forwarded the TML post from Marc, to the
Rec.Games.Frp.Misc news group. The message is true.

I would wait for Traveller Version 4.1 if it ever sees publishing.




 
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 20:32:29 -0700
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re:Ship Forms

Are there any on-line resources that have the missing ship cards from
Imperial Squadrons?

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:49:57 -0500
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Random Characters

> > My players are opposed to randomly generated characters.  Does 
> anyone have
> > an experience with allowing player choice in T4 character
> > generation?

	I let my players roll their career and then spend the skill points they
earned.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:56:28 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking

> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
>
>   Aren't we sort of ignoring the moon landings? A great revolutionary
> change, etc., and pretty much nobody cares anymore, within 30 years.

No, not at all.  At least I'm not.  The lack of follow through has allowed
it to be forgotten.

>   Less important than steam-liners or railroads. Also less important than
> the telegraph (let alone radio, phones, com-sats, or the internet).

Wasn't talking about importance.  Importance and cultural impact are two
different things.

>   I'm not qualified to say. Popular culture is hard to quantify, but I
> don't recall seeing much evidence of real change in attitudes.

Popular culture isn't that hard to quantify.  Culture is just like any
other emergent system.  Once you find one link, everything starts to fall
into place.

>   If any sort of correlation can be drawn with previous changes in world
> view or communications technology, then any such change will only be one
> factor in determining attitudes, and may make very little change to the
> outlook of most people (even though their economic life may change
> drastically).

I guess here we'll agree to disagree.

>   How many peoples views of the universe were radically changed by the
> realization that the New World existed? Or Europe, for India and China?
> You could tell Chinese how vast the world was, but China itself changed
> very little until foreign intellectual influences lead to rapid change
> in its political structure - a change which India hasn't really made.

Alot of people's worldviews were changed as the result of the New World. 
Suddenly the world was far larger than previously believed.  That was a
pretty profound impact on the Western world.

>   Of course, but most North American companies have too short a planning
> horizon to invest heavily. As time might be short, this becomes relevent.
> OTOH, a genuine need/want to achieve military (or prestige) aims will
> happily ignore short term limitations.

This is one of those things that's tough to call.  Corporate America is
tired of waiting for NASA to come along in order to launch its satellites,
and they're taking matters into their own hands.  We can only wait to see
what kind of vistas become opened as a result.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:03:21 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Status of Imperium Games?

> From: James Cook <jcook@net-serv.com>
>
>      On April 1, someone on the frp newsgroup forwarded a message, supposedly
> from Mark Miller, saying that Imperium Games would no longer be publishing T4.
> I'm sure that regardless of the truth of this, it has caused much discussion
> on this list. I just subscribed, and would like to find out if this message is
> true or not, as I am thinking about picking up T4. Any official confirmation or
> denial of this would be appreciated.

Imperium Games is gone, dead, no longer publishing Traveller.  The letter
you saw was accurate and correct, and was probably the one that he wrote to
this list.

>      Also, according to Imperium Games' website, two supplements were released
> that are no longer (or never were) available. These are Nobles, and Aliens Vol 1.
> Did these items get released, and if so, why was the print run so small that they
> are now unavailable?

Never got published.

Hope this helped.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 22:08:19 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

At 09:54 am 4/7/98 +0800, you wrote:
>Thanks, and... I appologise for not being 'with the program', but
BTRC?

	I believe it stands for "Blackburg Tactical Research" something or
other ...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:27:56 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Nebulosity and Jump Drive

Hiya everyone. Does anyone know if there's anything in canon 
concerning the effect of nebulae on jump drive? IMTU, I've got a new 
campaign setting in the vacinity of the Orion Nebula, and the sector 
is full of nebulosity. Also, would you think that emission nebulae 
might have more of an effect than reflection and dark nebulae given 
the fact that emission nebulae are strongly ionized? I'd like to hear 
your opinion.

Thanks,

Bob Kondrk
- ------------------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ
dss2@erols.com

Webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 98 06:18 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: [Fwd: CDs, Esp Free Ones] to attn. of MM

Moin Volker A. Greimann,

> >   That's how they sell drugs, isn't it?
> An interesting idea of getting new players, so i forwarded it to the list
> and MM. How about it, Marc? T4 is outdated anyway, and it would be a
> great teaser for T4.1...

	and I can see the 666MB mails, caused by a "me to"


- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 23:41:22 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence

John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu> wrote 

> Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>:
> > An argument could be made that Virus is the end result of a tech-17
> > research project gone wrong.  After all, there's a lot of worlds at
> > tech-16 in the Massilia and Core area, and a couple of other AI
> > research projects mentioned (that automatic starport wasn't that far
> > away in Core, as I recall).
> 
>         Automatic starport?  Where is this mentioned?  Can you imagine 
> a Virus-controlled automatic starport banging out purpose-built 
> Vampires?  So that's what the Black Curtain is made of!

Steven was presumably referrring to Ye-Lu/Cemplas (1123 Core) A100134-G.

Travellers Digest #10 (pg27) says "Navy scientists are particularly
proud of their accomplishments: the Ye-Lu starport is operated by the
Imperial Navy as a research project, testing the limits of robotic
networking.  The entire corps ofrobots at the facility is tied together
into one gigantic master/slave network; theoretically the entire
starport is "one" robot, with only "one" brain, but the brain is
dispersed throughout the complex.  All communication between the robots
is handeled by portable meson communicators, another important
experimental device developed by the Imperial Navy at Ye-Lu."

Ye-Lu is jump 10 from Capital/Core, is only jump 2 from Research Station
Omiicron (0922 Core) where the Virus was first developed, (Survival
Margin pg 72) and is within TNE's Black Curtain.

I am, of course, totally sure that all these facts are mere coincidence
and that Ye-Lu could not possibly be a Virus controlled port in the New
Era.

- -- 
"My father warned me about men and booze, but he never mentioned a word
 about women and cocaine."   --   Talullah Bankhead

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:39:39 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: T4 storyline

trisen@postmaster.co.uk writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>Jo Grant writes:
>>>There is no jump-3 in Milieu:0.
>>
>>Jo, jump-3 was invented 2000 years before Milieu:0. It was in use
>>throughout the 2nd Imperium for at least half a millenium. Planets
>>may lose the industrial capacity to built jump-3 ships when it
><snip>
> 
>Reminder: TL is not the  same  as  scientific  knowledge.

Right. TL is industrial capacity, more or less. A measure of what a society
can build IF they have the required knowledge. You need both knowledge and
tools to build something. If either is missing, it can't be built. Therefore
the Rule of Man could not build Fusion+ or drop tanks, despite being TL 12.
Therefore a TL 12 planet _may_ be unable to build jump-3 ships, but only if
they lack the proper knowledge. So the question becomes, did Sylea lack the
knowledge to build jump-3 ships? Since I'm in favor of the "TL of an
interstellar state reflects its space TL" handwave to explain away TL 14 RoM
relics, I definitely think that a TL 12 interstellar state would have the
knowledge to build jump-3 ships!

>I can believe that many worlds retain their  scientific  knowledge  (in
>their libraries and through 'Seldon Plans') but what is lost is the
>industrial capability (not  just  capacity). They may know what components
>go into a Jump-3 drive ... and know how  to  make these components ... but
>may have lost the techniques to make the tools to make the components.

In which case their technology is not TL 12. But the Sylean Federation's TL
had been 12 since -150.

>And some times the best Tech is not always economically successful.

True. But again, if jump-3 technology had been lost, the Sylean Federation
would not, IMO, have been TL 12 but only TL 11. Furthermore, jump-3 is the
most economic way to transport goods long distance. (Provided the jump-3
ship is not forced to jump short too many times; it's easy to find trade
routes where jump-2 is superior to jump-3 (a string of worlds two parsecs
apart, for instance), but it's difficult to imaging any sizable pocket
empire that wouldn't have _some_ routes where jump-3 was the most economic).
 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:55:10 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero -- Economics

Michael Koehne writes:
> 	IMTU the imperial credit is backed by a law and Vilani
> 	tradition, that subsidy freight has to be carried at Cr1000 per
> 	13.5m3 and jump, together with a well known rate of exchange
> 	table as a guide for local currencies.

Hey, maybe that's why there are no jump-3 ships in Milieu Zero: At the
official freight and passenger rates jump-3 ships are economically
unviable. So these 10,000 year old Vilani regulations ensures that that
jump-3 ships won't be built. Yeah, that's the ticket! It all makes perfect
economic sense, right?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:43:59 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero -- Economics

Jo Grant writes:
>John Macpherson writes...
> 
>>You have described a whole system for killing off political
>>leaders, debasing currencies, extracting all mineral wealth, etc.
>Only in the first stages. And only political leaders who would not support
>Imperium, currencies that posed a threat of economic dependence, and
>minerals for the same reason. You are ignoring completely the development
>stages and just focusing on the first part.

Just remember that debasing a currency is not going to make a planet one
iota poorer. All it will do is to redistribute the wealth on the planet.
If you don't physically remove goods from a planet, you don't remove any
of its wealth. Furthermore, you can only debase a currency if it is backed
by something concrete (and then only by _importing_ more of the same; a
society which used an abstract accounting system would be immune to anything
short of counterfeiting or computer manipulation.

>>Second, there are plenty of things that can be traded to these
>>worlds in exchange for their mineral wealth
>Bzzzt. Wrong. Read it again. It says very explicitly that trade is limited
>by _volume_. Stages are governed by what sort of volume of trade has been
>built up. In the first stages it is assuming that you have 50t of cargo
>going to and from the world twice per _year_. You can't shift all that
>extra high-tech stuff you suggest in that small a space.

Nor can you export very much of a planet's real wealth in that small a space.
And all you accomplish by removing gold or any other artificially high value
minerals is to force them away from the gold or whatever standard.

>>War is the fastest way to reduce a people to poverty ever devised.
>Perfect group for Imperial infrastructure development loans and grants.

Just remember that the only way to move wealth between planets is to ship
goods. Massive Imperial aid will require lots of trade volume.

>>As I've explained above, worlds will want to move to a currency
>>backed by the IC on their own because the IC will be more widely demanded
>>and more useful than gold, therefore it will be a more stable thing to
>>base one's currency on.
>Once they move to that mode of thinking. But if the Imperium had to wait
>for them to come to this conclusion it would be dead an buried.

A world is not going to want Imperial credits or any other sort of outside
currency until it is already fairly integrated into the Imperial economy.
Why? Because no one is really interested in square pieces of plastic with
numbers printed on them, or any other kind of money. What they want are
whatever goods they believe they can buy with their square pieces. So
until they are confident that they can get something that they can eat,
burn, or fondle for their Crimps, they are going to want goods in exchange
for their goods. 

Btw. this means that the value of gold or jewels to a merchant is what he
believes he can sell it for on his home planet, not what the locals think
it is worth.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:57:44 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: adventure idea

Just read a review of a new novel by Scott Mackay and it strikes me as
posible world in
M:0 for a first contact/recontact adventure.  The following is the
review.  This and orther
reviews of books can be found at http://www.sfsite.com/

Outpost
Scott Mackay
Tor Books, 349 pages

Scott Mackay
Outpost is Canadian Scott Mackay's first novel.

 A review by Todd Richmond

     Outpost is a story about a struggle for freedom and survival,
combining elements of science fiction, mystery and suspense. It begins
in a prison, clearly not on Earth because of the presence of two suns.
The story centers around Felicitas, a seventeen year old woman who is
just coming out of a mind-clouded haze. The prisoners in this alien
prison are watched and guarded by machines, robots which guide the
prisoners around the prison, feed them, and keep them there. A variety
of different devices keep the
prisoners controlled, including their sleeping pallets. Every night they
are strapped to their beds and given a combination of drugs and
electronic images which brainwash them and reinforce their dream-like
state.  The images fed to them are of the crimes that they have
committed, a constant reminder of why they are here.

     Unfortunately, we discover, the current prisoners are the
descendants of the original prisoners, who were forgotten by their
wardens. To make the machines care for their children, the original
prisoners tattooed their prison identification symbols onto their
children. As an unpleasant consequence, however, the crimes of their
parents and grandparents are visited upon their children every night.

     As the story opens, the prison is beginning to break down. Not
maintained for many generations, the machines are beginning to fail, and
some of the prisoners, the "superstiti", have managed to awaken from
their dream state. They realize the prison is failing and begin to make
plans to escape before their wardens return, or before they starve to
death in the prison. While she helps the other superstiti with the
escape
plans, Felicitas discovers that she has a special gift which allows her
to work some of the alien devices in the prison. She also discovers that
she can read some of the alien glyphs of their captors, whom they call
the "uominilupi" -- beings who look like wolves yet walk like men. She
dreams of one of these aliens, Lungo Muso, as she sleeps. He shows her
other places and times as she dreams but she has difficulty
understanding what it all means.

     Felicitas escapes with some of the others just before their captors
return. She is taken in by a group of hunters who are the descendants of
former escapees. They take her to their town, New Florence, where she
meets, Raffaele, a would-be astronomer and another of the people whom
Lungo Muso visits. There she discovers the meaning of the visions and
what she must do to save not only herself, but all of mankind as well.

     Mackay weaves together a fascinating tale. The effort to escape
from the prison and the prisoners' explorations of the alien technology
are very interesting, as is his vision of a prison run entirely by
machines. He does an admirable job of describing the prisoners' efforts
to decipher the alien machines and writing, and shows how truly
difficult it would be to use technology with little understanding of it.
There is some romance mixed into the plot, as well as jealousy. There is
a great deal of tension and suspense in the prison as those who are
"awake" plot to escape and the "dead" come under the control of special
implants and attempt to stop them. There are enough different elements
in this story that everyone should find something to interest them.

     The story is very complex, though, and I have to admit I had to
read Outpost twice to truly appreciate it. But I think the effort was
worth it. There are twists to the tale that I didn't catch the first
time. Mackay ties up all of the loose ends except for one that deals
with a time travel paradox. Rather than trying to explain it, however,
it is merely ignored. Not uncommon in a story that deals with time
travel. It doesn't detract from the story, though, and in fact, the time
travel aspect plays a somewhat minor role in the plot of this book. I
recommend Outpost to science fiction lovers who are willing to give a
chance to new authors with fresh ideas.

Copyright  1998 by Todd Richmond

Todd is a plant molecular developmental biologist who has finally
finished 23 years of formal education.
He recently fled Madison, WI for the warmer but damper San Francisco Bay
Area and likes bad movies, good science fiction, and role-playing games.
He began reading science fiction at the age of eight, starting with
Heinlein, Silverberg, and Tom Swift books, and has a great fondness for
tongue-in-cheek fantasy la Terry Pratchett, Craig Shaw Gardner and
Robert Asprin.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 09:25:07 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: FAQ ERRORS (BITS & CORE) and a few other things

Hi All,

Apologies for not responding to anything on the TML for some time, but at
the moment I'm trying (with a number of other people) to coordinate
publishing of future Traveller material with Marc Miller (both for GURPS
and T4/5) in addition to my 'real' work which is weighing heavily upon my
time.

However, I was notified that there seems to have been some confusion
occurring on the TML as regards the names and functions of the two
organisations that I run - BITS (British Isles Traveller Support) and CORE
(Traveller Product Development Group).

BITS AND CORE
=============

Given the commercially sensitive nature of current licensing agreements,
etc. I felt I should correct this data as quickly as possible.

I would be grateful if anyone holding any form of information on BITS
and/or CORE update their material according to the data given below. There
appears to have been some minor misunderstanding as to the correct data.

The following (corrected) information is that which has been provided, from
the outset of T4, to Marc Miller, Destination Games, SweetPea
Entertainment, Imperium Games, the TML, etc.

>=== FAQ Begins Here ===

>What other companies publish Traveller material?
>
>At the moment, two British companies, BITS and CORE, have been
>licensed to publish Traveller material. Also, Steve Jackson Games
>has been licensed to publish Traveller material compatible with
>their GURPS system.

There is only one British company with a license to publish Traveller
materials, and that is BITS (British Isles Traveller Support). BITS is a UK
company (i.e. it makes tax returns, is VAT registered, etc.). It publishes
the only independent supplements for Traveller - the 101 series of books, etc.

BITS has been promoting Traveller throughout the UK from early 1995,
including launching T4 at European GEN CON (EGC) in 1996, attending events
and liaising with RPG retailers. Jo was also a great help, working hard
(with Lesley) to help me (and BITS) make the T4 launch a great success in
1996. EGC 97 was a huge success with three RPGA-approved tournaments and
loads of help from BITS referees (building on our success I'll be needing
at least as much help again for EGC 98)!

Imperium Games may have stopped publishing, but BITS has a wide range of
upcoming products (including more 101 books). A broader license is being
negotiated with Marc at the moment to ensure a continuing line of support
for Traveller during this 'intermediate' period. Discussions on
distribution in the US have been held up but will hopefully be resolved in
the next month or two.

>Who or What is CORE?

CORE is a group of writers of Traveller products who have provided Imperium
Games with T4 products such as Milieu 0, Pocket Empires, Psionic
Institutes, Long Way Home, Gateway, and the unfortunate Aliens book. In
addition, CORE wrote the original The Long Way Home and CORE writers have
written the 101 series of booklets.

These non-Imperium Games products have all been published in the UK by
BITS. Although both the CORE and BITS logos appear on these products, CORE
itself does not have any funds nor publishing rights; CORE is currently
purely a group who develop and write Traveller material.

>CORE doesn't appear to be an acronym for anything, even though
>it's written in all-caps.

CORE was the name I suggested for the group of writers, based partly on the
theme of being 'central' to Traveller development and also based upon the
Traveller system Core. It sounded good at the time, anyway. The reason it
is in block capitals is because it follows the format of the BITS logo.

>Jo Grant heads up this organization,...

Nope, I do. As noted in the frontispiece of one of the T4 works (M0?), CORE
was formed by David Burden and myself. The first CORE/BITS work (The Long
Way Home) was purely our own work and was financed and published by myself.
CORE subsequently expanded to include people such as Jo Grant, Joe Walsh,
Stu Dollar, Suz Dollar, etc. Jo worked with CORE on some of the early
products (both for IG and for BITS) but unfortunately his work and personal
commitments precluded him from contributing to later products for IG.
Unfortunately, many of Jo's innovative concepts fell on deaf ears at IG and
were not pursued despite collective efforts to promote these ideas over the
past couple of years. Hindsight indicates that IG may not have had
sufficient free capital to invest in anything more radical than the basic
line of books they wished to pursue. Many good ideas, necessarily, fell by
the wayside when IG was determining their products for each forthcoming year.

>...formally called the CORE Gaming Collective.

Jo was kind enough to set up the page early on in CORE's history in order
to advertise our products. CORE is not called the CORE Gaming Collective;
this is the name Jo chose to use on his web page. I sometimes call CORE the
CORE Traveller Development Group in order to clearly indicate its purpose.

I now own domain names for both BITS and CORE and 'official' web pages for
both organisations will be released in the near future.

>...CORE works closely
>with BITS, and also has some projects of its own, such as a
>Traveller collectable-card game.

Jo is pursuing some projects privately but not currently in an official
role for either BITS or CORE.

>What can you tell me about GURPS:Traveller?

BITS are discussing with SJG the launch of GURPS at UK Games Fest and Euro
Gen Con later this year. Future BITS supplements will also support GURPS
Traveller and CORE writers are already signed up to help write GURPS
supplements.

>To contact BITS:

New details are:

British Isles Traveller Support
PO Box 4222
Sawbridgeworth
Hertfordshire CM21 ODP
England

Phone: +44-1279-833773
Fax:   +44-1279-833773
email: A.S.Lilly@nortel.co.uk (temporary)
web:   http://www.innocom.demon.co.uk/BITS/ 

(The latter is the current BITS web site kindly maintained by David Burden.)

>To Contact CORE:

Andy Lilly (CORE)
PO Box 4222
Sawbridgeworth
Hertfordshire CM21 ODP
England

Phone: +44-1279-833773
Fax:   +44-1279-833773
email: A.S.Lilly@nortel.co.uk (temporary)

If you're outside the UK, please do not send money or orders to this
address. Once worldwide distribution is sorted out, I'll let you know. I
know that some people have been waiting ages to get hold of 101 booklets,
but I did not feel that I could expand into the US without the blessing of
Marc Miller. If you're finding it frustrating, imagine how *I* feel about it!

For your information...

In addition to the Traveller products and services currently provided by
BITS and CORE...

***** CORE and BITS are discussing amalgamation

***** with various US groups supporting Traveller.

***** Our aim is to spread the sort of support provided

***** by the BITS group to the US, to encourage the

***** growth of Traveller, through newsletters,

***** RPG events, product discounts, a good quality

***** magazine, etc.

***** We also aim to provide a strong writing forum

***** for future Traveller products, liaising closely

***** with Marc Miller.

It's not all just going to pop into existence immediately, but the basic
concepts are supported by Marc Miller and selected people are working hard
to make it a reality.

As with BITS, support will be provided for *all* types and eras of Traveller.



Now, very quick responses to a few other things:

ELECTRONIC PUBLISHING
=====================

Yes, despite some negative vibes with regard to electronic publishing of
BITS material, etc. this *is* being considered quite seriously,
particularly with regard to software (such as the excellent Infini-V
program by Rob Prior).

THE LONG WAY HOME
=================

Someone asked about the original The Long Way Home. Yes, I do have a few
copies left. If anyone is still interested, please get in touch. Although
this appeared as separate products (Long Way Home and Gateway) by IG,
payment for these products (as well as several THOUSAND dollars worth of
work I did for them) has not been made, thus, to my knowledge, all rights
have reverted to the original authors (myself and David Burden). However,
we are unlikely to re-publish TLWH in its original format, so if you have
one of the original 300 print-run, good luck, it might be worth something
in a few years time.

THE IMPERIAL THRONE
===================

Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com> mentioned a T4 Storyline Possibility which
he 'pitched' to me very early in the development of the T4 line.

Don, I'm afraid an awful lot of ideas where pitched at IG but were
rejected, adapted, whatever. Unfortunately spending most of my time writing
for IG and the rest trying to run BITS meant that taking on another "TLWH"
size adventure wasn't possible at that time. If I failed to respond to you
to explain this at the time, then I apologise now for this.

FUTURE 101 BOOKS
================

"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> proposed some interesting new 101 books:

>101 Near C Rocks
>101 Technolgically Elevated Dictators
>101 Single Celled Animals
>101 Unihabited TL12 Mainworlds
>101 TL4- Vacuum Worlds
>101 Quoted Full Texts of TML Messages with a One Line of Useless Comment at
the End.

The latter being a book after my own heart. I have already assigned a team
of 200 CORE writers to start on the above products in addition to the
following which should be published in the near future:

101 Ways to Run a RPG Business
101 Ways Not to Run a RPG Business
101 Ways to Get Shafted Writing Material for a RPG Company
101 Ways to Lose Thousands of Dollars Working for a RPG Company
101 More Bright Ideas We Had That We Weren't Allowed to Publish



If you have *ANY* queries with regard to BITS or CORE, please send them
*PRIVATELY* to me at A.S.Lilly@nortel.co.uk. I rarely have time to monitor
the TML (although other people do this for me) and due to pressures of
work, my responses are still likely to be very slow, for which I apologise
in advance. I'm sorry but I cannot currently discuss licensing issues with
regard to BITS, CORE or T4.1 - please watch for official messages from Marc
Miller.

Andy Lilly
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)
Coordinating CORE Traveller Development Group

P.S. Loved the comic White Wolf publishing announcement for T4.1...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #374
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 7 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 375



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Vilani names
Re: Milieu Zero - Economics
RE: Nebulosity and Jump Drive
CORE -- some corrections
Re: Artificial Intelligence
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards
Re: Random Characters
RE: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards
Re: Nebulosity and Jump Drive
RE: Traveller and Real World Technology
Re:Ship Forms
Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Later days
Re: Traveller and Real World Technology
re: Milieu Zero - Economics
RE: Traveller and Real World Technology
RE: Traveller and Real World Technology
Re: Traveller and Real World Technology
RE: Traveller and Real World Technology
Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking
Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:22:43 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Vilani names

><< Emdiri (reigned 618-9) and Usuti (619-20).  Does>
> anybody know for sure if the names are Viliani, Swahili, Swedish or
> something else?
>  >>
>
>These are Vilani names (unless Loren choses to contradict me).
>
>Marc

Vilani as far as I'm concerned.

Loren

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:20:24 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero - Economics

> Don McKinney posted:
>
>It took 80 years for the dupes to get a clue?  Ok, sure I have problems

>with the M:0 timeline (like Vland being a member of the Federation when

>Supplement 11 tells us that by 0 it reached the edge of Core sector - 
>but then Supplement 11 also tells us that 60 years later LSP settled 
>Mora - so Supplement 11 has it's own problems)...
>
>Still - 80 years for the dupes to catch a clue is a bit long - esp. if the
>Chanestin are spreading that info around like banshees (ok, sure the stuff
>about Cleon's personal life might not be true, but look at the holovid of
>his agents in the act!)

My take is that although it may have not taken 80 years for them to
catch on but it _did_ take that long for enough people to give a
damn to actually be able to *do* something about it. Read up on
the race riots in the U.S. just a few decades ago. So many spontaneous
riots broke out that the FBI just *knew* it was a conspiracy and spent
a tremendous effort toward finding something that wasn't there. Enough
people who were willing to take action just got fed up with the situation
though I'll admit that the ability to receive real-time information via
radio/TV may have been a subliminal catalyst.

This kind of cultural "spontaneous combustion", combined with the
distances involved could, IMO, easily take 80 years, if not more. Keep
in mind we're talking parsecs to worlds which have varied cultures. By
the time news hits those worlds, it's weeks and even months old, even
assuming each world's culture(s) causes its citizens to care. Some
pretty horrible things are happening on Earth today (i.e. Africa) with
real-time pictures in living color but to the person on the street it
means nothing because either the threat isn't recognized or it's not
_personal_. It's usually just a topic for people to shake their heads
and say "How terrible" while they deal with the stresses of work,
sick children, and other aspects of their daily lives.

Finally, there's almost always some people in power who prefer
to ignore a threat or try to bribe it in the hope it'll just go away. An
example of this is the abandoning of Poland by the world
community to Hitler.

So, to me, 80 years is very possible.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:33:09 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: Nebulosity and Jump Drive

> Robert Kondrk posted:
> 
>Hiya everyone. Does anyone know if there's anything in canon 
>concerning the effect of nebulae on jump drive? IMTU, I've got a new 
>campaign setting in the vacinity of the Orion Nebula, and the sector 
>is full of nebulosity. Also, would you think that emission nebulae 
>might have more of an effect than reflection and dark nebulae given 
>the fact that emission nebulae are strongly ionized? I'd like to hear 
>your opinion.

The only thing even close to "canon" that I recall was in FASA's
Beyond Sector. There was a hex with a nebula posted as a Red
Zone. According to the hex description, using a M-drive within the
nebula caused part of it near a ship to fuse, resulting in a Plasma
gun hit on a random location.

I guess it really depends on how "nebulous" the nebula is and
which type of M-drive the ship is using (assuming your campaign
allows for different types). I'd say most of the time you wouldn't
have anything to worry about.

Sensors are something else entirely. Anybody care to elucidate
on the effects of high-energy ionization on delicate electronics?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:00:44 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: CORE -- some corrections

Andy Lilly made a bunch of statements that were divergent from reality. At
least the reality I am aware of.

>>Jo Grant heads up this organization,...
>Nope, I do.
Nope. CORE is a collective. No one heads it up. Andy was chosen as the
spokesperson to IG. It was originally formed so that a number of writers
could pursue various directions in publishing Traveller material but have a
common branded logo for collective value. At least that's what the mails in
my archive say.

>Jo is pursuing some projects privately but not currently in an official
>role for either BITS or CORE.
I have no active role in BITS. However I continue to work on publishing
various Traveller material under the CORE logo and will continue to do so
in the spirit of the collective. I have assumed Andy has been unable to
help with this as he has not returned e-mail to me in quite some time.
  My current ambition is to bring a number of products to market and
distribute them freely on the CORE web-page
(http://members.nova.org/~sol/core) and also provide paper-copies for sale
at-cost. There are other things I am pursuing as CORE but I deplore
vaporware and would rather refrain from announcing anything until I have a
firm launch date.
  I've been directing those wanting to do commercial CORE supplements and
make money to Andy and those wishing to publish amateur CORE supplements
containing material by fans for fans to myself. That has been my
understanding of Andy's role and my own role based on agreements made over
the years. I guess the fact that Andy posted the above publicly contrary to
previous agreements and not in consultation with me indicates that he has
rather another view.
  It's a pity, really, that when the hobby needs this sort of amateur
support the most that elements of Rebellion eat it from within...

Anyone interested in having amateur supplements printed (approx. 10,000
words) please contact:

Jo Grant (CORE)
14 Lorcan Crescent,
Santry, Dublin 9,
Ireland.

or

Jo Grant (CORE)
49 Gloucester Street,
Boston MA 02116,
USA.

email: jo_grant@lotus.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:04:14 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence

Michael, I'm not objecting to your Traveller reading of AI.  But.... 
:>

kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne) says

	Back to real life :

	Its posible to implement the same number of neurons an ant has
	(10k neurons) on a 4dx33/8MB. 

I'm pretty sure that the computer "neuron" you're talking about here
don't have the same complexity as a neuronal cell.  _If_ neuronal
cells are on/of, and things like running low on chemicals in various
parts of the neuron aren't important, maybe we can implement an ant.

	But processing power is not the main problem
	with neuronal networks.  ... training of large networks shows imposible. 

I agree.  Training large nets is currently impossible.  However, our
brains do learn -- therefore training them is possible.  Eventually,
we may even figure out how.

So, I'm saying you're overestimating how much simulation capability we
have relative to what Nature uses, and overestimating the amount of
time required to train once we have figured out _how_ to train the
systems.

The way I would treat AI is as follows:

At some point in the future, we will figure out how brains "learn".
At that time, you will have two kinds of AI/autopilots.
1. Programmed/expert systems good at what they do, but requiring human
observation because they don't have or use enough data to get the big
picture.
2. Learning systems which need human training, but could conceivably
be "as good as" a human.  These systems actively acquire and use much
more data than type 1.

For game playability, I'm going to decree that we haven't figured out
the learning trick and leave type 2 autopilots to Ancient devices.


	and so we have walking 6 legged machines with neural networks at
	Tl:8, but we still does'nt have an ant.

We have walking 6 legged machines (and running 4, 2, and 1 legged
machines).  But I wouldn't trust any of the current autonomous
controllers to any machine large/expensive enough to do anything useful.

	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com

"There's always one more bu6"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:17:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 09:54 am 4/7/98 +0800, you wrote:
> >Thanks, and... I appologise for not being 'with the program', but
> BTRC?
> 
> 	I believe it stands for "Blackburg Tactical Research" something or
> other ...

Blacksburg Technical Research Center, which is Greg Porter's
publishing company; publishers of the CORPS gaming system, 3G3, VDS
(Vehicle Design System), and other fine RPG supplements. As mentioned
before 3G3! is _the_ word on weapons design for RPG's. VDS is a greatly
expanded version of the vehicle design rules in CSC, altered somewhat to
be the base system for CORPS. It's sort of the vehicle half of FFS for
CORPS, and like 3G3! is a quite well-done, though _very_ gearheaded
supplement.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:01:27 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards

I started reading Gateway last night.
Spotted two spelling mistakes on page 3.
Sigh.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:04:39 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Random Characters

That is how I creat my law enforcement characters since their is no "official"
career (at least in CT). For instance my IMJ IBI (Imperial Ministry of
Justice; Imperial Bureau of Investigation) characters have gobs of
Admin,Liason,Legal, and Computer skills. I also allow a character to use
Bribery,Forgery, skills to DETECT these skills being used by others.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:36:49 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards

>I started reading Gateway last night.
>Spotted two spelling mistakes on page 3.
>Sigh.
>
>Jo


Why am I SO not surprised?  :-)

If/when Marc finds a publisher, the first thing we should all do is chip in
and buy them a SPELL CHECKER!

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:52:17 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Nebulosity and Jump Drive

On Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:33:09 -0500 "Smart, David"
<David.Smart@ons.octel.com> writes:
>
>I guess it really depends on how "nebulous" the nebula is and
>which type of M-drive the ship is using (assuming your campaign
>allows for different types). I'd say most of the time you wouldn't
>have anything to worry about.
>

Well, I don't know anything canon about this, but I do know that nebulae
are __VERY__ thin. so thin that you could drag a football field sized
scoop all the way across it and get only a shot glass full of material. 
Based on this, IMTU nebulae have no effect on M drives or J drives.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+
You might be a Traveller player if....You let your car roll out of the
driveway in neutral until you are far enough away to engage your drive.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:05:20 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller and Real World Technology

>>His technique, described in the science journal Nature, would involve
>>mixing human cells with the cells of an animal -- perhaps a chimpanzee,
>>which is closely related genetically.
>>******************
>>
>>That's right, folks! You too can be a monkey's uncle!
>
>Actually, there is a great amount of research bneing done along these lines
>regarding geneticly acquired cancers.  Seems that some mammals have the
>predisposition for the cancer (like Hodgkin's Lymphoma in pigs) but never
>develop the disease.  Be interesting if we could isolate and transfer the
>gene sequence that allows the immunity.
>
>This, BTW, is why I don't mind much about disease and food compatability
>for my adventurers.  Broad-based enhancements to the auto-immune system,
>along with products to help humans digest odd food items, make travel far
>safer.

If anyone has the chance/funds, I highly recommend picking up GURPS Biotech,
for a full treatment of the future of bio-science.  Not only is it a great
sourcebook for sci-fi ideas, but it also does a wonderful job of describing
modern biotechnology.  Sort of a "DNA for Dummies" manual.  I work at a
company that does genetic research, and it was fun reading GURPS Biotech as
a way to incorporate things I've learned about at work with my game.

Of course, then the problem becomes this:  thousands of years into the
future, we will have mapped the human genome, and probably made remarkable
advancements.  Should I require all of my characters to take the "Immune to
Disease" and "Longevity" advantages, plus or minus a slew of others?
Enhanced senses?  Combat reflexes?  Ad nauseum?  Maybe have a base package
for human players?  Or I could do what Dave is talking about, and just
assume that everyone has some level of automatic immunity, without bothering
with character points.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 09:21:54 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re:Ship Forms

At 08:32 PM 4/6/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Are there any on-line resources that have the missing ship cards from
>Imperial Squadrons?

Doug looks up from his pile of notes.

"I'm working, I'm working!"

These should up, both here and on my web page soon.  Thanks to all the
people who have been so patient while I dealt with my latest medical
disaster.  (Short form:  My medication destroyed my short-term memory
retention and concentration.)  I should start churning out designs in a day
or two.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 09:24:30 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

At 07:17 AM 4/7/98 -0700, Bruce wrote:

>Blacksburg Technical Research Center, which is Greg Porter's
>publishing company; publishers of the CORPS gaming system, 3G3, VDS
>(Vehicle Design System), and other fine RPG supplements. As mentioned
>before 3G3! is _the_ word on weapons design for RPG's. VDS is a greatly
>expanded version of the vehicle design rules in CSC, altered somewhat to
>be the base system for CORPS. It's sort of the vehicle half of FFS for
>CORPS, and like 3G3! is a quite well-done, though _very_ gearheaded
>supplement.

If you want to do 3G3 right, go to hyperbooks online and download the
spreadsheet.  It's Excel5, and does just about everything for you.

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 09:19:14 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Later days

Hello all.

I am going to have to unsusbscribe.  It has been fun, but work demands just
caught me.

Anyone working on economics or gearhead ship design is cordially invited to
CC me.
]
Happy gaming

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:34:09 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

> From: Brian Mays <bmays@genscope.com>
>
> If anyone has the chance/funds, I highly recommend picking up GURPS Biotech,
> for a full treatment of the future of bio-science.  Not only is it a great
> sourcebook for sci-fi ideas, but it also does a wonderful job of describing
> modern biotechnology.  Sort of a "DNA for Dummies" manual.  I work at a
> company that does genetic research, and it was fun reading GURPS Biotech as
> a way to incorporate things I've learned about at work with my game.

I plan on it.  It looks pretty fantastic from what I've seen.

> Of course, then the problem becomes this:  thousands of years into the
> future, we will have mapped the human genome, and probably made remarkable
> advancements.  Should I require all of my characters to take the "Immune to
> Disease" and "Longevity" advantages, plus or minus a slew of others?
> Enhanced senses?  Combat reflexes?  Ad nauseum?  Maybe have a base package
> for human players?  Or I could do what Dave is talking about, and just
> assume that everyone has some level of automatic immunity, without bothering
> with character points.

That all depends.  My own way of doing it would be to make up a base
package for _Imperial_ human characters.  Then, if someone wants to be a
barbarian from a (Traveller) TL4 world, that would be a disadvantage to
him.  The disadvantage would work then as other GURPS disadvantages. 
Advantages are only advantages when they place the characters above the
adveturing norm.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:53:11 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Milieu Zero - Economics

>>Furthermore, anyone who had a trace of the honor
>>talked about in the books would have a hard time considering a deal
>>designed to destroy the fabric of the victim society honorable.

Really. Look at Dune, forex. The whole culture is one based around honour
and ethics (eg Kanly) yet non of the Landsraad so much as blinks when the
Harkonnen's butcher the Atreides and their retainers.

I think that Jo has defended M0 more than adequately so I'll only add two
things -

(1) the consolidation begins around 76 and runs to 120 (the Pacification
Campaigns, also mentioned in passing in Missions of State)

and (2),  your view seems to be very naive - for all the Victorians made
out that the British Empire was wonderful, those that conquered the
colonies were brutal and everything you dislike about M0- you need to have
this brutality to have the luxury of the glorious humane empire later.

IMO of course.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:58:54 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: RE: Traveller and Real World Technology

Brian Mays wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Of course, then the problem becomes this:  thousands of years into the
future, we will have mapped the human genome, and probably made remarkable
advancements.  Should I require all of my characters to take the "Immune to
Disease" and "Longevity" advantages, plus or minus a slew of others?
Enhanced senses?  Combat reflexes?  Ad nauseum?  Maybe have a base package
for human players?  Or I could do what Dave is talking about, and just
assume that everyone has some level of automatic immunity, without bothering
with character points.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In Hero Games' _Champions_ (the first hardcover blue book, whatever edition that is)
they designed a game for many different genres. In the character-based point 
system, you paid for things that made you different from other people. A Medieval
Fantasy setting, you weren't literate in your native tongue unless you paid for it. 
A space opera setting, you were automatically familiar with computers and 
the operation of anti-gravity cars. 

What I would recommend is that you decide on a baseline "everybody is like
this" average - include average lifespan, disease immunities, whatever. Charge
your players points if they want unusual advatages (maybe not everyone is
immune to the Dread Denebian WereWorm Virus) and let them take
disadvatages if they don't have the average immunities/advantages (because
they came from a low-tech homeworld, for example).

(No, Steve Jackson Games did _not_ put out GURPS as a Champions rip-off.
The fact that it came out after the SJGames/Hero Games _Autoduel Champions_
joint effort is a complete coincidence... <g>   )


Walt Smith
- ---------------------------------
The mome rath hasn't been born that can outgrabe me....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 10:10:29 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: RE: Traveller and Real World Technology

At 09:05 AM 4/7/98 -0700, you wrote:


>Of course, then the problem becomes this:  thousands of years into the
>future, we will have mapped the human genome, and probably made remarkable
>advancements.  Should I require all of my characters to take the "Immune to
>Disease" and "Longevity" advantages, plus or minus a slew of others?
>Enhanced senses?  Combat reflexes?  Ad nauseum?  Maybe have a base package
>for human players?  Or I could do what Dave is talking about, and just
>assume that everyone has some level of automatic immunity, without bothering
>with character points.

I'd make Longevity part of the Vilani racial package.  According to GURPS
Ultra-Tech, the base age for aging rolls goes up as the tech level
increases, so you are covered there.

Scouts might have "Immune to Diesease" as part of their career package.
This would cover the broad-spectrum anti-virals, plus the fact they've
probably had everything by now!

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 10:12:29 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

At 12:34 PM 4/7/98 -0400, you wrote:

>That all depends.  My own way of doing it would be to make up a base
>package for _Imperial_ human characters.  Then, if someone wants to be a
>barbarian from a (Traveller) TL4 world, that would be a disadvantage to
>him.  The disadvantage would work then as other GURPS disadvantages. 
>Advantages are only advantages when they place the characters above the
>adveturing norm.

GURPS covers that by the disadvantage "Primative."  You could also add
other disads to cover social stigmas and the like.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:28:36 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller and Real World Technology

>What I would recommend is that you decide on a baseline "everybody is like
>this" average - include average lifespan, disease immunities,
>whatever. Charge
>your players points if they want unusual advatages (maybe not everyone is
>immune to the Dread Denebian WereWorm Virus) and let them take
>disadvatages if they don't have the average immunities/advantages (because
>they came from a low-tech homeworld, for example).
>

This, then, begs the question of why aging rolls begin in the 30's in
Traveller . . . but let's not get into another "Traveller Technology: The
"Ford Pinto" of Science Fiction?" discussion, shall we?  ;-)


>(No, Steve Jackson Games did _not_ put out GURPS as a Champions rip-off.
>The fact that it came out after the SJGames/Hero Games _Autoduel Champions_
>joint effort is a complete coincidence... <g>   )


A friend of mine describes GURPS as "Hero Lite."

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 09:40:08 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking

>>   Aren't we sort of ignoring the moon landings? A great revolutionary
>> change, etc., and pretty much nobody cares anymore, within 30 years.
>
>No, not at all.  At least I'm not.  The lack of follow through has allowed
>it to be forgotten.

  But weren't we discussing the effects of the knowledge that the capability
existed?

>>   Less important than steam-liners or railroads. Also less important than
>> the telegraph (let alone radio, phones, com-sats, or the internet).
>
>Wasn't talking about importance.  Importance and cultural impact are two
>different things.

  How about "importance as a factor in impacting peoples lives"?
Or " steam-liners or railroads are more important than" "The effect of
jet airliners (which) is profound".

>>   If any sort of correlation can be drawn with previous changes in world
>> view or communications technology, then any such change will only be one
>> factor in determining attitudes, and may make very little change to the
>> outlook of most people (even though their economic life may change
>> drastically).
>
>I guess here we'll agree to disagree.

  Probably because we seem to have slipped into discussing religion.
While I'll concede that there _will_ be unforeseen impacts, the development
of a hypothetical Jump drive would not necessarily (and from the evidence
of previous similar advances, would not) result in a massive, widespread,
fundamental change in world-view.

>>   How many peoples views of the universe were radically changed by the
>> realization that the New World existed? Or Europe, for India and China?
...
>Alot of people's worldviews were changed as the result of the New World. 
>Suddenly the world was far larger than previously believed.  That was a
>pretty profound impact on the Western world.

  The vast majority of people didn't care, if they heard about it, and it
certainly didn't change their lives directly (long-term economic impacts
are an entirely separate issue). As for the elites, some knew what the
planets diameter was to begin with, and although Columbus didn't he lived
pretty sure he knew what size it was (i.e., "knowing" isn't always correct).

>This is one of those things that's tough to call.  Corporate America is
>tired of waiting for NASA to come along in order to launch its satellites,
>and they're taking matters into their own hands.  We can only wait to see
>what kind of vistas become opened as a result.

  It's been a long time coming, and that's only for satellite launches.
OC, this should incrementally decrease lift costs, with hope of a break-
through in efficiencies by new technologies.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:33:57 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

Actually, I always concidered GURPS to be the direct decendant of In the
Labyrinth which Steve wrote while working for MetaGames. The systems
are/were very similar, with GURPS giving much more detail. in fact I used
several of the ITL suppliments as almos direct crossovers. Not sure when
Hero came out, since I never played it, but I'm pretty certain ITL was out
first, seems to me it was relaesed about the same time a CT, since the house
rage for MetaGaming 'Space Gamer' spent quite a bit of space on Traveller
stuff. When MetaGames folded and Steve started out on his own (or those
events may have been reversed [ insert appropriate "us old timers suffering
from brain fatigue" joke]).

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Brian Mays <bmays@genscope.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 1:40 PM
Subject: RE: Traveller and Real World Technology


>>(No, Steve Jackson Games did _not_ put out GURPS as a Champions rip-off.
>>The fact that it came out after the SJGames/Hero Games _Autoduel
Champions_
>>joint effort is a complete coincidence... <g>   )
>
>
>A friend of mine describes GURPS as "Hero Lite."
>
>Brian
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #375
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 7 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 376



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:Ship Cards
AutoImmunity (Was RE: Traveller and Real World Technology)
Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?
What exactly *is* a beam pointer?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #374
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #375
Re:  Traveller-digest V1998 #368
Re:  jump drive exit points
Re:  jump exit points
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #375
Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking
Re: Traveller and Real World Technology
RE: Traveller and Real World Technology
Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?
Water on Titan
Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?
TNS
GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 10:51:58 -0700
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re:Ship Cards

Hey Guys it turns out I already have a copy of these I recieved off the net and squirrled
away on my hard drive (I'd forgotten I had them). If anyone else needs a copy I can
e-mail them(contact me privately) or maybe somebody could post them on
there webpage.

Thanks
Dave
strebe@intergate.bc.ca

P.S. Doug I hope you'r feeling better soon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:22:56 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: AutoImmunity (Was RE: Traveller and Real World Technology)

> Brian Mays replied:
> 
> If anyone has the chance/funds, I highly recommend picking up
> GURPS Biotech, for a full treatment of the future of bio-science.
> Not only is it a great sourcebook for sci-fi ideas, but it also does
> a wonderful job of describing modern biotechnology.  Sort of a
> "DNA for Dummies" manual.  I work at a company that does
> genetic research, and it was fun reading GURPS Biotech as
> a way to incorporate things I've learned about at work with
> my game.

Yes! I've been _very_ impressed with the amount of real-world
knowledge available in the descriptions and sidebars of many
of the GURPS books. One thing I've seen about SJG is that
the developers appear to do quite a bit of research into their
topics.

"I'm am _not _ a gearhead; I'm a knowledge groupie."

Other good books for those of you looking for Ancients
tech would be UltraTech and UltraTech 2. I've also been
playing with some of the moves from GURPS: Martial Arts
converted to MegaTraveller and it's pretty effective. By the
by, reprints of GURPS: Vehicles have been hitting the
local (Dallas, TX) game stores today.

> Of course, then the problem becomes this:  thousands of
> years into the future, we will have mapped the human
> genome, and probably made remarkable advancements.
> Should I require all of my characters to take the "Immune to
> Disease" and "Longevity" advantages, plus or minus a slew
> of others? Enhanced senses?  Combat reflexes?  Ad
> nauseum?  Maybe have a base package for human players?
> Or I could do what Dave is talking about, and just assume
> that everyone has some level of automatic immunity, without
> bothering with character points.

I believe the auto-immunity idea was Doug's but my take on
the subject is to make it easy on yourself and assume the 
advantages are over and above the norm. If everyone has an
improved immune system then it's no longer an "advantage";
it has become the norm.

IMTU, I've always had recently mustered Scouts and
Merchants from hi-tech worlds be able to ignore just about
every disease found on lower tech worlds because of the
effects of higher tech medicine. Wide-spectrum medication
should have been available to these folks because their jobs
required it.

Now put someone who's never been off-planet into a
disease-laden environment they've never been exposed to
and you've got problems. The same could be said for
sophonts from a very low-tech planet winding up on a
high-tech planet, except in reverse (they bring the crud
with them). Of course, this is what Starport Customs is
supposed to catch (pun!).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:26:05 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?

Sam wrote
>>I've meant to ask this for years...just what exactly *is* a beam pointer?

>Beam pointers were originally for a *constant* target data updating
>mechanisms. Unfortunately with Bruce's Sensor System they are not needed
>except when you have a SA (Semi Active) homing missiles. Bruces Sensor
>system has methods to hand off target locks without the need of beam pointers.

Actually, my interpretation is that you still do need a beam pointer. It
includes a couple of things:

"looking up the boresight" sensors - a laser weapon, for ultimate precision,
needs some kind of sensor looking along the launch optics. Ideally (and at low
TLs) it needs to be sensitive enough to see the target; at higher TLs it
just needs to be able to see a star that's near the target, but in either
case, to get the nanoradian acuracy that laser weapons need at long ranges,
you need a boresight sensor that uses the same optics the laser pulse
will need.

I also assume it includes the physical mechanisms that do beam steering - 
it's a measure of how much money you've spent on making your beam steering
mirror precisely pointable over a given field of view. For a PAW or meson
weapon it's a measure of how much money you spent on the magnets that do
precision beam steering.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:29:20 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?

Sam wrote
>Some have said that a beam pointer included the *traversing* mechanisms for
>the weapon at hand, but that has many *holes*, ie spinal mounts do don't
>need a *traversing* mechanism, why does of single small turret have the
>same *traversing* mechanism that a 100 ton bay mount has, or why does a
>*battery* of weapons only need one beam pointer for *traversing* mechanism.
>The list of *holes* goes on and on. 

The beam pointer is a traversing mechanism in some sense, but it's the
fine traversing mechanism - ultraprecise but with very limited range; it
doesn't move the whole weapon, just deflects the beam slightly. 
Therefore even spinal weapons don't need it, and it's relatively independent
of weapon size (for a laser, it's a fine pointing mirror downstream in the
laser path, not the final launch optic.) I'm not sure what sam means abotu
"battery" - original FFS had no rules for "batteries" in it. I would myself
assume that a battery needs one pointer per laser.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 13:33:27 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #374

First, my apologies to those whose messages I don't respond to 
individually - I subscribe to the digest service to preserve my
sanity...

Second, I've gotten several responses to the Chat proposal I 
put up last week, and I'll e-mail you all seperately shortly
with the "The Ancient Period" portion of the updated timeline.
If you've contributed to my timeline or expressed interest
in the chat, you'll be on the distribution.

Third, many of you have been making great comments about the 
storyline and technology issues for M:0.  Unfortunately, no one
has yet to answer whether or not someone actually was running
a game using the material, or if the writers were just going
solo on their development...

> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 09:25:07 +0100
> From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
> Subject: FAQ ERRORS (BITS & CORE) and a few other things

[welcome explanation of what is BITS and CORE deleted...]
 
> THE IMPERIAL THRONE
> ===================
> 
> Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com> mentioned a T4 Storyline Possibility which
> he 'pitched' to me very early in the development of the T4 line.
> 
> Don, I'm afraid an awful lot of ideas where pitched at IG but were
> rejected, adapted, whatever. Unfortunately spending most of my time writing
> for IG and the rest trying to run BITS meant that taking on another "TLWH"
> size adventure wasn't possible at that time. If I failed to respond to you
> to explain this at the time, then I apologise now for this.

No, I figured that was the case.  I posted the storyline after the demise
of IG to generate interest, and give the ideas to anyone running a campaign
in the setting.  My assumption at the moment is that the potential for
commercial development of the idea is less than zero, and I just want to
see people using the ideas.  And I've promised now to devote a web page 
to it on my site (not ready yet) with more details.  Obviously it is outside
the published M:0 universe, since my map of Core sector and my Core sector
details match the CT/MT ones, and I'll admit that my feelings about M:0
devolve from two sources:

a) the joker who stole my copy of First Survey and Milleu Zero at a con
   before I read either,
b) the cavalier attitude that the good work of Joe Fugate and Gary Thomas
   were regarded by the writers of M:0
c) (ok, I lied - three sources) the obvious lack of players present during
   the creation of adventures for M:0 - my gaming group (derived from the
   Conflict Simulation Society at the University of Illinois at Urbana-
   Champaign, hence the "Winter War Gaming Convention" signature) strives
   for high ideals in our role-playing, except for the "Vampire" group...
   the "Wall Street Gaming" concepts that seem to pervade M:0 fell very
   flat on our door step.
 
Ok, I come not to praise M:0, but to bury it.  I'll put my M:0 books 
in the closet next to the few TNE books I own, and try to eagerly await
G:T (the last, greatest hope for Traveller).


Donning the asbestos suit,

DonM.

- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 98 11:29:11 -0700
From: Tim Carroll <timc@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #375

>Of course, then the problem becomes this:  thousands of years into the
>future, we will have mapped the human genome, and probably made remarkable
>advancements.  Should I require all of my characters to take the "Immune to
>Disease" and "Longevity" advantages, plus or minus a slew of others?
>Enhanced senses?  Combat reflexes?  Ad nauseum?  Maybe have a base package
>for human players?  Or I could do what Dave is talking about, and just
>assume that everyone has some level of automatic immunity, without bothering
>with character points.

In my GURPS campaigns, I've always handled this one by creating a racial 
template that reflects the genetically improved human.  I'd then increase 
the number of points available to characters by that point cost.

So, let's assume the package is 15 points.  Instead of 100 point 
characters, the campaign would use 115 point characters instead.  If a 
player wanted to build a character without that package, I'd consider 
assessing an Unusual Background cost on case by case basis.  Generally, 
I'd charge the Unusual Background only if I felt the player was 
attempting to abuse on the system.

The TL4 barbarian would have both extra points and the primitive 
disadvantage, but isn't going to fit in too well in modern society.  
Which is as it should be.  On the other hand, they'll probably be much 
more physically fit than the PCs. :)

You can go the other route, and assume the package costs 0 points.  
Anyone who doesn't have the package gets a -15 point disadvantage.  If 
you don't include the disadvantage in the maximum number of 
disadvantages, the math works out the same.

As far as Immunity to Disease/Resistance to Disease for chracters, I've 
usually saved it for scouts. Even though everone else's immunity systems 
have been improved, the diseases are probably more virulent.

I'd probably give everyone Longevity, but start Vilani on aging rolls 
much later than other humans.  This should probably be a freebie for 
Vilani -- when is the last time you saw a PC die of old age? :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:38:54 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1998 #368

>No need to worry about dust. You see, at weapons level intenities
>(above about 1 MW/cm^2) *air* undergoes ionization breakdown. That
>means that chunks of the air in the beam turn into plasma, which glows
>as it recombines into "normal" gases. I've seen photos of a beam inside
>a lab and it looks like a cheap special effect! 

I'm not sure that the photo you saw was of ionization breakdown. Even without
it, rayleigh scattering of a bright beam off of air or dust is very visible;
our laser guide star beam (20 W in a 30-cm-diameter beam) is easily visible
(at night); it does indeed look a special effect - you can see it from about
a mile away. In daylight, beams are harder to see but a 60-W YAG beam in a
milimeter or so is fairly visible.

Ionization breakdown, on the other hand, is spectacular but also usually bad
news, I gather, as the ionized air is opaque to the laser beam and hence
tends to make the laser destroy itself.

Traveller weapons lasers are pulsed (millisecond pulses) and are probably
outside of the visible-light range, so you'll need sensors to track them
back to their firing source - and advanced sensors will also be able to 
track gauss slugs back to their firing point too.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:43:33 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  jump drive exit points

>> That's why you match velocities with your target planet before you jump
>> (what Marc called a "standing jump"; it's reasonable to assume that your
>> exit point moves with time at the velocity your ship had when it entered.

>No, remember that you exit jump with the velocity you entered it with.
>That's why a "standing jump" is a good idea. It minimizes the "extra"
>accelerating you need to do.

>Having your exit point move is a bit weird. 

It's not weird at all. The exit point can't be "stationary" - it has
to be stationary with respect to something, or in some particular frame
of reference. The logical frame of reference is that it's stationary in 
a frame in which the jumping spacecraft is also stationary - ie it moves 
at the velocity of the jumping spacecraft. (It sounds like you want it to
be stationary in the frame of the target system, which makes very little
sense; what's special about that frame?) Similarly, the sensible way to
minize the "extra" accelerating you need to do once you come out of jump
is to match velocities with your target world.  I can't think of any other
way to deal with it that's consistent.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:44:52 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  jump exit points

>BTW, if we allow for the "ecliptic" plane of the star systems to be
>tilted with respect to each other, then the odds of intercepting the
>star's limit go *way* down.

>Do you happen to know if there's any "reliable" data on the axial tilt
>distributions of stars?

To the extent that we know them (from stellar rotational axis estimates based
on stellar rotational doppler, and from binary star orbital planes for resolved
binary star systems), stellar axial tilts and binary star ecliptics are 
completely random.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:20:38 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #375

> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:53:11 +0100
> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> Subject: re: Milieu Zero - Economics
> 
> >>Furthermore, anyone who had a trace of the honor
> >>talked about in the books would have a hard time considering a deal
> >>designed to destroy the fabric of the victim society honorable.
> 
> Really. Look at Dune, forex. The whole culture is one based around honour
> and ethics (eg Kanly) yet non of the Landsraad so much as blinks when the
> Harkonnen's butcher the Atreides and their retainers.

AGREED.  100%.  But would you want to run a campaign in this universe?
No.

For example (NOTE TO SELF: Add to Imperial Throne Storyline):

IMTU (heh), Cleon buggers up the diplomacy "imperially" with the Chanestin,
so badly they want to bomb the Imperial Palace in an attempt to kill him
(hah - he dug a bunker expecting that kind of action from those bastards).
Anyway, this starts a war that lasts until the early teens when the new
"Imperium" meets its first challenge by devastating the Chanestin.
Remember, it's personal.  Heck, I actually up it in the storyline, by
having the noble lady Cleon wants to marry killed by the Chanestin during
a raid shortly after the coronation. 

Anyway, look at the Chanestin world UPPs in the 1100s - boring TL, yawn
worlds.  In M:0, these guys almost kill the Imperium before it starts. 
Guess what got bombed back to the stone age.

Further, the real villian of the piece is this Lentuli guy.  The PCs (by
the year 0) are Cleon's close associates.  But this Lentuli guy shows 
up around the time of the end of the Chanestin War, and appeals to all
of Cleon's bad feelings.  A few drinks and an arranged romance later,
Lentuli is on the fast track for making the Imperium a not too friendly
place.  

And our PCs are wondering what happened...  

> I think that Jo has defended M0 more than adequately so I'll only add two
> things -
> 
> (1) the consolidation begins around 76 and runs to 120 (the Pacification
> Campaigns, also mentioned in passing in Missions of State)
> 
> and (2),  your view seems to be very naive - for all the Victorians made
> out that the British Empire was wonderful, those that conquered the
> colonies were brutal and everything you dislike about M0- you need to have
> this brutality to have the luxury of the glorious humane empire later.

Hey, I don't deny that.  But allow your players to live on the same 
idealism the Victorians did to justify their actions, and produce the same
noble individuals who bucked the system as well.  

Insert Rudyard Kipling's 'The White Man's Burden' here...
We should have brought some of that nobility from Space: 1889 over to M:0.


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:25:46 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking

> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
> 
>   But weren't we discussing the effects of the knowledge that the
capability
> existed?

Yes.  But, the universal rules of human behavior still apply.  Out of
sight, out of mind.

>   How about "importance as a factor in impacting peoples lives"?
> Or " steam-liners or railroads are more important than" "The effect of
> jet airliners (which) is profound".

That's not exactly the point of my original essay.  I apologize if I
wavered from my point in subsequent discussions then.

>   Probably because we seem to have slipped into discussing religion.
> While I'll concede that there _will_ be unforeseen impacts, the development
> of a hypothetical Jump drive would not necessarily (and from the evidence
> of previous similar advances, would not) result in a massive, widespread,
> fundamental change in world-view.

What you are saying then, that our worldview is exactly the same today as
it was always and will never change.  That, say, a peasant living on the
British Isles in 1200 AD had exactly the same worldview as an American
living in 1998?

>   The vast majority of people didn't care, if they heard about it, and it
> certainly didn't change their lives directly (long-term economic impacts
> are an entirely separate issue). As for the elites, some knew what the
> planets diameter was to begin with, and although Columbus didn't he lived
> pretty sure he knew what size it was (i.e., "knowing" isn't always correct).

"If they heard about it" is the most important part about what you're
saying.  I don't think that I pretended to believe, at any point, that
every single person in the world has had their world view changed by any
advance.  This isn't a matter of haves vs. have nots, or West vs. East. 
The discovery of the New World changed people's worldviews, there's no
doubt about that.  Did it change every single person on the face of the
planet's worldview?  No.  Of course not.  I never said that.  

>   It's been a long time coming, and that's only for satellite launches.
> OC, this should incrementally decrease lift costs, with hope of a break-
> through in efficiencies by new technologies.

The launch site won't just be for satellite launches.  They've already said
that.  At first it'll just be efficient satellite launches.  Let the
exploitation of the solar system begin.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:27:22 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

> From: dberry@hooked.net
> 
> GURPS covers that by the disadvantage "Primative."  You could also add
> other disads to cover social stigmas and the like.

Y'know, the more I get involved with GURPS, the more I like it.  This type
of flexibility is truly amazing.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:35:51 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Traveller and Real World Technology

Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:28:36 -0700, "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
>>(No, Steve Jackson Games did _not_ put out GURPS as a Champions rip-off.
>>The fact that it came out after the SJGames/Hero Games _Autoduel Champions_
>>joint effort is a complete coincidence... <g>   )

>A friend of mine describes GURPS as "Hero Lite."

Well, this is popular among Hero players but is inaccurate.

GURPS is based on "The Fantasy Trip" which predates Hero
(GURPS drew ideas from Hero, though Hero probably also
drew ideas from TFT).  GURPS contains things that Hero
doesn't and the main difference is that it doesn't to
in for a meta system.  It is not a "cut back version"
of Hero.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:50:09 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?

At 11:29 AM 4/7/98 -0700, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
>Sam wrote
>>Some have said that a beam pointer included the *traversing* mechanisms for
>>the weapon at hand, but that has many *holes*, ie spinal mounts do don't
>>need a *traversing* mechanism, why does of single small turret have the
>>same *traversing* mechanism that a 100 ton bay mount has, or why does a
>>*battery* of weapons only need one beam pointer for *traversing* mechanism.
>>The list of *holes* goes on and on. 
>
>The beam pointer is a traversing mechanism in some sense, but it's the
>fine traversing mechanism - ultraprecise but with very limited range; it
>doesn't move the whole weapon, just deflects the beam slightly. 
>Therefore even spinal weapons don't need it, and it's relatively independent
>of weapon size (for a laser, it's a fine pointing mirror downstream in the
>laser path, not the final launch optic.) I'm not sure what sam means abotu
>"battery" - original FFS had no rules for "batteries" in it. I would myself
>assume that a battery needs one pointer per laser.

Bruce,

I would agree with except for the *hole(s)* your argument/interpretation
opens up, ie a 50Mj laser turret laser has the same *traversing* mechanism
that a 150m long 1500Mj Particle accelerator has. The *mechanism* to fine
*deflect*/tune the spinal PA beam will require much more power, magnets
etc. Also would not a Meson gun need a totally different method(s) to fine
defection of its beam, than say X-ray laser?

In FFS does not the beam pointer determine the weapons *effective* range?

Does not each MFD require a beam pointer? if so then why would you need a
beam pointer for each weapon if that MFD's laser battery only fires as a
battery?

I was referring to weapons grouped into batteries like say 10 50Mj lasers
with one MFD with one Beam Pointer. Result a savings on the cost of 9
additional beam pointers.

I have always thought the all *traversing* methods(fine and corse) were in
the mass, volume and costs of the weapons and its mount.
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:36:40 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Water on Titan

Just thought the following was rather cool...


Water Found on Saturn Moon

L O N D O N,   April 7 - Europe's infrared space observatory has
discovered water in many unexpected places-including a moon of
Saturn-raising expectations of life elsewhere in the universe.
   The discovery of water vapor in the atmosphere of Titan, Saturn's
largest moon, may indicate that conditions there duplicate those that
gave birth to life on Earth, said Roger Bonnet, director of science for
the European Space Agency. 


ObTrav:  A misjump places the PCs in a star system without a gas giant
with just enough fuel to reach one of two planetary bodies, neither of
which has a breathable atmosphere.

Now they have to dust off their rusty scientific skills to figure out
which one has the greatest amount of water available (if any) using
the ship's outdated sensors.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 15:15:55 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?

At 11:26 AM 4/7/98 -0700, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
>snip<
>Actually, my interpretation is that you still do need a beam pointer. It
>includes a couple of things:
>
>"looking up the boresight" sensors - a laser weapon, for ultimate precision,
>needs some kind of sensor looking along the launch optics. Ideally (and at
low
>TLs) it needs to be sensitive enough to see the target; at higher TLs it
>just needs to be able to see a star that's near the target, but in either
>case, to get the nanoradian acuracy that laser weapons need at long ranges,
>you need a boresight sensor that uses the same optics the laser pulse
>will need.
>
>I also assume it includes the physical mechanisms that do beam steering - 
>it's a measure of how much money you've spent on making your beam steering
>mirror precisely pointable over a given field of view. For a PAW or meson
>weapon it's a measure of how much money you spent on the magnets that do
>precision beam steering.

Bruce,

Ok this opens up some other *hole(s)* by your interpretation.

If the main sensor array is accurate enough to get a FCS(fire control
solution) and provide the data to bring the weapon to *bear* and *engage*
the target why have a second sensor, that is not as accurate as the main
sensor array, second guess it. 


Would not the main sensor array have the greater sensitivity and resolution? 

Or are you saying that the beam pointer and the main sensor equal in
sensitivity and resolution?

What happens if the main sensor and the beam pointing sensor disagree? To
which one will the weapon *adjust* its fire? Since now you have two
different and separate *feedback loops*.

IRL a beam pointer is used to provide a *constant* *accurate* target data
update that the ship's main sensor  may not be able to provide in a manner
needed by the firing weapon, and in a as needed basis to provide a source
of *illumination* of a target for semi active homing. Todays ships main
detection sensors do not have the resolution for some weapon systems to
accurately *engagement*. This is due to the properties of RF in an
atmospheric conditions.

From many discussions with yourself and others the futuristic sensor arrays
will not have todays limitations. The only two types of beam pointers that
I would see for use in the future would be for use in missile guidance ie
SA homers, and for use in short range Point defense roles. But with a
future SOTA main sensor array these two uses may not be needed.

But one clarification I would like to see in the next FFS would be
different types of mounts for use in starships. Ie a Point Defense weapon
would have different needs in a weapon mount and traversing mechanisms than
a spinal mount or a bay mount.

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:50:56 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: TNS

****TNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNS****

Rhylanor/Rhylanor  (0306-A434934-F) Date: 134-1116

A Starport Authority Safety Board official said this morning
that damaged circuitry in the fuel monitoring systems of Free
Merchant Flight 800 and three retired Beowulf-class starships
'illustrate unsafe conditions that may exist in other Beowulf-class
starships,' and called for inspections as soon as possible.

The official, who requested anonymity, also stated that the
circuitry in question was commonly used by most shipyards
throughout the Spinward Marches sector from just after the
Fifth Frontier War up to the end of last year.

****TNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNSTNS****
<EndFile>


Sorry, folks, today's a crazy day at work and I needed a
Traveller fix...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:06:31 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

David P. Summers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:28:36 -0700, "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
>>(No, Steve Jackson Games did _not_ put out GURPS as a Champions rip-off.
>>The fact that it came out after the SJGames/Hero Games _Autoduel Champions_
>>joint effort is a complete coincidence... <g>   )

>A friend of mine describes GURPS as "Hero Lite."

Well, this is popular among Hero players but is inaccurate.

GURPS is based on "The Fantasy Trip" which predates Hero
(GURPS drew ideas from Hero, though Hero probably also
drew ideas from TFT).  GURPS contains things that Hero
doesn't and the main difference is that it doesn't to
in for a meta system.  It is not a "cut back version"
of Hero.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Tsk tsk tsk...I did say it was "not" a Champions rip-off,
didn't I? <g>

There are few cross-genre role-playing game systems. 
The Fantasy Trip and Chaosium's "House System"
(as seen in Runequest, Stormbringer, and Call
of Cthulu) come to mind, as does RoleMaster (which
I have almost zero clue about). I've only read a little bit
of GURPS, but in execution, style and even concept
it seems much closer to Hero System than to any other
cross-genre system I've seen - including it's own ancestor,
The Fantasy Trip. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, and note
that not even in jest did I call it a cheap rip-off - if it was a 
rip-off of Hero System, it was a much better supported,
better marketed and more expensive, er, _extensive_
one.... <g>

BTW, I've identified TFT as a cross-genre system (even though
it was a fantasy game) because the system was generic enough
to allow robots and electronic security systems to function 
well (what was that TFT adventure - Research Station Something?).
Perhaps in that same vein I should call AD&D a cross-genre system,
due to the laser guns, robots and such in the _Expedition to the
Barrier Peaks_.

I really liked Metagaming - ObTrav: anyone use Ogres (or BOLO's, or
Berserkers, or other really big combat robots) IYTU?


Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #376
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 8 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 377



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller and Real World Technology
RE: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)
Re: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)
RE: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)
Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?
RE: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)
RE: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)
Re: Traveller and Real World Technology
Re: Imperial Squadrons
Re: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)
Re: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)
Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards
Re: Boeing -- Boeing
TNS ENTRIES
Re: jump drive exit points
Re: TNS ENTRIES
Rules of Thumb (was Re: Imperial Squadrons)
Re: Artificial Intelligence
Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking
World Builders Handbook
Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards
Re: TNS ENTRIES
Re: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)
Re: Traveller and Real World Technology
Re: Milieu Zero -- Economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:27:20 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

> GURPS is based on "The Fantasy Trip" which predates Hero
> (GURPS drew ideas from Hero, though Hero probably also
> drew ideas from TFT).  GURPS contains things that Hero
> doesn't and the main difference is that it doesn't to
> in for a meta system.  It is not a "cut back version"
> of Hero.


Fantasy Trip was the precursor to Dungeons and Dragons.  I remember
playing it in a group, hardly seemed like modern day GURPS at all..Maybe
in the dice mechanics..Is that what you mean?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:25:18 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

Walter G. Smith wrote:
>
>There are few cross-genre role-playing game systems. 
<snip>
>Chaosium's "House System" (as seen in Runequest,
> Stormbringer, and Call of Cthulu) come to mind,
<snip>

Don't forget "Ringworld"...I still dream about
Chaosium producing Traveller. (sigh) Oh, well.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:31:23 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

> I really liked Metagaming - ObTrav: anyone use Ogres (or BOLO's, or
> Berserkers, or other really big combat robots) IYTU?
> 
> 
> Walt Smith


I use Bolos.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:44:24 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

>There are few cross-genre role-playing game systems.
>The Fantasy Trip and Chaosium's "House System"
>(as seen in Runequest, Stormbringer, and Call
>of Cthulu) come to mind, as does RoleMaster (which
>I have almost zero clue about).

I've GM'd/played RoleMaster/SpaceMaster, and while I have to say I LOVE it,
I also have to point out that it has many flaws.  First, the new "Standard
System" is so huge and convoluted and filled with charts that flipping
through the basic rules would frighten away all but the most die-hard
gamers.  In a market where RPG's are streamlining and trying to become more
"user friendly," I.C.E. is going the opposite route.  Second, while the
(dozens of) crit tables are fun, fun, fun, they (and the combat system in
general) seem geared towards humanoid-to-humanoid combat, and break down
quickly when applied to non-humanoids.  ("A critical!  You shatter the
squid's knee--um, uh . . .")  On a final note, creating a character,
especially with the new rules, can take HOURS, making character death
untenable.

But . . . what can I say?  I love the system.  For me, the more
charts/dice/tables, the better.  Hell, I love Powers & Perils (any
old-timers remember THAT math-textbook-disguised-as-a-game?)  And it's one
of the last systems where you get thousands of experience points!  ;-)

Brian ("Oh my God!  It's a Quadratic Dragon!") Mays

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:41:27 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: What exactly *is* a beam pointer?

>If the main sensor array is accurate enough to get a FCS(fire control
>solution) and provide the data to bring the weapon to *bear* and *engage*
>the target why have a second sensor, that is not as accurate as the main
>sensor array, second guess it. 

One way of looking at it is that the main sensor tells you which way the
target is - while the beam pointer tells you which way your weapon is 
actually pointing (by taking an image of a starfield looking along 
the launch optics of the laser.) This saves you from having to build mechanical
mounts for big lasers that are accurate to nanoradians open-loop and lets
you use closed-loop fire control.

>Does not each MFD require a beam pointer?
I don't think so.

>I was referring to weapons grouped into batteries like say 10 50Mj lasers
>with one MFD with one Beam Pointer. Result a savings on the cost of 9
>additional beam pointers.
There's certainly nothing in FFS1 to support this interpretation - i would
read it that a battery requires 10 lasers (each with their own pointer)
and one MFD (with no pointer but with its own dedicated sensor.)

>I would agree with except for the *hole(s)* your argument/interpretation
>opens up, ie a 50Mj laser turret laser has the same *traversing* mechanism
>that a 150m long 1500Mj Particle accelerator has. The *mechanism* to fine
>*deflect*/tune the spinal PA beam will require much more power, magnets
>etc. Also would not a Meson gun need a totally different method(s) to fine
>defection of its beam, than say X-ray laser?

This, on the other hand, is a very good point; all I can imagine is that
it's a simplification.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:49:36 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

>Don't forget "Ringworld"...I still dream about
>Chaosium producing Traveller. (sigh) Oh, well.

In February I found a guy at a booth at Dundracon who had TWO near-mint
copies of Ringworld, AND the companion!  After changing my underwear, I
quickly bought everything he had . . .  Yeah, I can see Traveller with the
Chaosium System.

Brian ("Smells like chlorine in here!") Mays
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:52:22 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

Walter G. Smith also wrote:
>
>I really liked Metagaming - ObTrav: anyone use Ogres (or BOLO's, or
>Berserkers, or other really big combat robots) IYTU?

Yes! Well, once in college. Definitely an interesting run. The only guy
to figure out what was going on was a real quiet type who played a
scientist/historian and always let everyone else lead. Seems he was
the only one to read Keith Laumer's Bolo series (hey, the rest played
D&D). I remember, when I used a description straight from one of 
Laumer's books, he jumped up, knocking over his drink,
with a look of absolute horror on his face and yelled "ARE YOU
F****ING NUTS?!?"

I think it was the first time we ever heard him cuss. Regardless,
once he explained the situation to the others, he became
designated leader and did a pretty decent job. Truly one of my finer
moments as a GM.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 16:00:22 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

At 02:27 PM 4/7/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Fantasy Trip was the precursor to Dungeons and Dragons.  I remember
>playing it in a group, hardly seemed like modern day GURPS at all..Maybe
>in the dice mechanics..Is that what you mean?

Dungeons and Dragons was released in 1974, designed by Gary Gygax and Dave
Arneson.  Melee, the Microgame that was the first part of TFT, was released
in '76 or '77, IIRC.  This was followed by Wizard, then In The Labrynth.
All fo these were designed by Steve Jackson.  When Metagaming went flop, he
tried to take TFT with him, but only could get the rights to the concpets,
not the name.  So GURPS was born.

I'm sure Loren will check with Evil Stevie himself to correct any places I
got this wrong.
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 00:30:35 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Squadrons

I've thought about converting ships from various design systems into 
Imperial Squadrons, plus allowing the long-campaign view and tying the 
IS economic model into the PE system.  there have also been a couple of 
similar questions to yours on the TML, including a discussion on the 
conversion between SDBs and squadrons (for those warmongers who want to 
build squadrons rather than SDBs).  See TML around 27/Feb to 2/Mar/98:

1 squadron = (P-2+M) x 10 SDB's
(see IS for meaning of P and M)

remember that a BatRon counts as 2 squadrons.

At the scale of IS, it should be fine to use Cr1 Trillion (200 RUs) for 
a CruRon and Cr2 trillion (400 RUs) for a BatRon.  While it would be 
nice to rate detailed designs from FFS, the differences become small at 
squadron level.  However, I do feel that squadron combat should have 
some TL effects (a bit like SDB TL effects).

The way forward (for me) is the use Greg Porter's Slag! (downloaded as 
a pdf file from hyperbooks.com) as an intermediate conversion between 
detailed ships (High Guard or FFS) and IS.  Interesting fights can be 
fought using Slag!, with large scale (or forgone conclusions) being 
resolved with the IS system.  I have not started an serious work on the 
conversion process.

The problem with all the above is that you end up with loads of "house 
rules" (either from me or other people) and so may deviate from 
yet-to-be-published canon systems for resolving combat with FFS 2 
ships.



Simon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:49:48 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

> From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
> > I really liked Metagaming - ObTrav: anyone use Ogres (or BOLO's, or
> > Berserkers, or other really big combat robots) IYTU?
> > Walt Smith
> I use Bolos.

I use Bolos & Berserkers.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:49:09 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

> From: Smart, David <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
> >There are few cross-genre role-playing game systems. 
> >Chaosium's "House System" (as seen in Runequest,
> > Stormbringer, and Call of Cthulu) come to mind,
> Don't forget "Ringworld"...I still dream about
> Chaosium producing Traveller. (sigh) Oh, well.

There is also Phoenix Command & Palladium.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 20:12:20 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards

Brian Mays wrote:

> >I started reading Gateway last night.
> >Spotted two spelling mistakes on page 3.
> >Sigh.
> >
> >Jo
>
> Why am I SO not surprised?  :-)
>
> If/when Marc finds a publisher, the first thing we should all do is chip in
> and buy them a SPELL CHECKER!
>
> Brian

  I beg to differ.  Spell checkers bite.  What it needs is the good ol' trusty
red pencil proof reader!  And more than one.  And not the author!  No offense.
You need cold eyes to catch the mistakes.

BTW, I volunteer to proof read stuff if anyone needs it.  I've made a few
dollars here and there doing that.  And the consequences for such mistakes in
my near-profession (law) are very high.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:56:16 EDT
From: Volant Zep <VolantZep@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Boeing -- Boeing

In a message dated 98-03-24 00:06:05 EST, you write:

<< > Another example of the difference between American and European
 > philosophy, at least several years ago, is that the Europeans put the
 > machine ahead of the man. If the pilot tries to do something that's
 > out of the limits programmed it, he won't succeed. If the computer is
 > told that a Boeing 747 cannot pull more than 2Gs, it won't let the
 > pilot do it. 
 
 I have heard it described thus: American aircraft designer's assume that if
 the pilot is pulling back on the yoke _real_ hard, he wants to go up _real_
 bad, and the control surfaces respond accordingly.
 
 >I've read of an incident on a transatlantic flight where
 > a 747 wound up in an inverted dive. The pilot completely ignored
 > Boeing's safety limits, and wound up bending the wings ... but the
 > plane and all aboard survived and landed safely.
 
 Boeing has a reputation for this sort of stuff, dating back to WWII, when
 B-17s were put through some remarkable hoops. I keep running across rumors of
 a pilot pulling an Immelman with a B-17, but have never found solid proof. 
 
 Loren Wiseman >>

I do know that a  Boeing KC-135 had an autopilot malfunction and was
inadvertantly barrell-rolled, pulled twice the normal allowable g limit and
broke mach,  lost a WHOLE lot of altitude but recovered and landed safely.  Mr
Boeing was a genius in my book.  ;>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:02:24 EDT
From: Kagehira <Kagehira@aol.com>
Subject: TNS ENTRIES

	Okay, before everybody grabs the TNS entries on IG's web site. I'd like to
make the following comments.

	First off, the original entries are on my site and currently cover till year
1125 or so (including source where they came from). IG swiped the info from my
site (but they did give me credit). However my site's not fully functional (if
someone can show me how to fix the broken links properly I should be able to
fix that problem easily).

	I also sent a copy to be used for the Not-IG site. And I might send one to
SJG for their use (though understandably only through 1112).

	Depending on who ends up being the next publisher, I expect a copy might 
appear there also.

	If anyone else wants to post it to their site, please ask first, or at least
post appropriate credits.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 19:56:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: jump drive exit points

In mail you write:

> [I haven't followed this whole thread, forgive me if this
> has been covered....]
> Sun, 5 Apr 1998 06:13:04 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>>Having your exit point move is a bit weird.
>
>>According to an earlier post by Marc you exit when your "course"
>>crosses *anything's* 100 diameter limit. That's another reason to go
>>with the idea of a "fixed" exit point. That way you it's *much* easier
>>to tell if a ship's course intersects a 100 diameter "sphere".
>
> Remember, in physics there is not such thing as being stationary
> or in motion in an absolute sense.  Everything moves, or not,
> with respect to some reference frame.  As long as jump takes
> an ideterminate amount of time, the expected exit point will
> either move or be fixed depending on the reference frame.
> What makes the most sense, since we know that momentum is
> conserved on a jump, that the exit point is fixed with
> respect to the entry point.  This does mean that the
> point may move with respect to the destination planet
> (or whatever) and may mean that ships often end up coming
> in out of jump siginficantly more than 100 diameters from
> the destination world.

My reasoning goes like this:

If you use the entry point as the reference frame, then you have the
target moving in various ways. But if you chose to use the *exit* point
(relative to the target *star*) as the reference frame, it's much
easier to deal with some things. For one, your drift with respect to
the target planet is easier to handle (if not to figure).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:21:50 -0500
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: TNS ENTRIES

what is your address?


- ----------
> From: Kagehira <Kagehira@aol.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: TNS ENTRIES
> Date: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 10:02 PM
> 
> 	Okay, before everybody grabs the TNS entries on IG's web site. I'd like to
> make the following comments.
> 
> 	First off, the original entries are on my site and currently cover till year
> 1125 or so (including source where they came from). IG swiped the info from my
> site (but they did give me credit). However my site's not fully functional (if
> someone can show me how to fix the broken links properly I should be able to
> fix that problem easily).
> 
> 	I also sent a copy to be used for the Not-IG site. And I might send one to
> SJG for their use (though understandably only through 1112).
> 
> 	Depending on who ends up being the next publisher, I expect a copy might
> appear there also.
> 
> 	If anyone else wants to post it to their site, please ask first, or at least
> post appropriate credits.
> 
> Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 21:55:37 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Rules of Thumb (was Re: Imperial Squadrons)

>Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 08:52:16 +1200
>From: Raygun <raygun@ihug.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Squadrons
>
>A while back, somebody was inquiring about the merits of IS etc.  Several of you very
>knowlledgable people wrote back your HO.  My question of the day concerns the (tenuous)
>relationship between PE and IS.  Specifically how do the two tie together.  How can I use the
>resource units in PE to fund units described in  IS?  Why did the IS
authors come up with production points when they already had resource units
to play with?  Is there a conversion
>between the two?
>

There really isn't much in the rules themselves - 

Pocket Empires, p. 41:

"The average [annual] earnings of one labor factor (100,000,000 people) are
one trillion credits.  To figure out the value of a RU in a particular
planet's currency, divide 1,000,000,000,000 by the number of RU's that one
labor factor produces in a year (TL * 0.1 * Resources Available *
Infrastructure).  To get it in MCr use 1,000,000 instead of 1 trillion."

Note that those are local credits, which are used to purchase locally
manufactured ships.  For imported ships or tech, you have to convert to the
currency at the world of origin.

Imperial Squadrons, p. 9, 12:

"Optionally, a Billion or Trillion Credit Squadrons Campaign may be tied to
a specific set of pocket empires, in which case the military budget must be
converted to Credits using the Pocket Empires supplement."

>Secondly (!), I want to try a PE campaign where individual ships are designed (gearhead alert),
>built and kept track of in formations such as sqns, fleets etc.  This is fine if you want to fight
>every fleet engagment on the ship to ship scale outlined in T4 (right), however I think it would
>be fabby is somebody had done a rating system that interlocks nicely with IS.  Every ship would
>be rated on ATK/DEF and maybe strength (HP) in order to conduct large-scale actions for IS,
>without using the arbitrary SQN values in the book.  This whole system would allow added
>roleplaying as you could switch between low-level/large-scale ship cbt easily i nthe same campaign.

Don't know if this will help, but here are some Rules of Thumb I use for
estimating fleet sizes and so on.  These are based on analysis of the
standard ship designs, maintenance and construction rules, plus some
assumptions about design philosophy:

Shipyard Capacity (in tons) = Population/1000 [from TCS, p. 33]

Navy Construction Budget  = Annual naval budget * 10 [also from TCS]
   [10% of your fleet must be at one tech level lower than current]

Total Fleet Size (in tons) = Shipyard Capacity * 10
   [2% annual maintenance, 7% replacement after 40 years ammortization, 1%
new build]
   [Includes both merchant shipping and navy]

Cost per ton = Cr 500,000 (naval vessels)
               Cr 250,000 (armed merchantmen)
               Cr 200,000 (unarmed merchantmen)

Crew per ton = 0.050 (naval vessels and armed merchantmen)
               0.025 (unarmed merchantmen)

Merchantmen carry 50% of their tonnage in cargo.

So, if you want to know the total tonnage of your navy, divide your naval
construction budget by MCr 0.5.  Whatever is left from your total fleet
size is merchant shipping.  Fleet auxiliaries (tankers, scouts, etc.) use
merchantmen values for cost and crew.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:23:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence

In mail you write:

>
> Michael, I'm not objecting to your Traveller reading of AI.  But.... 
> :>
>
> kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne) says
>
>         Back to real life :
>
>         Its posible to implement the same number of neurons an ant has
>         (10k neurons) on a 4dx33/8MB. 
>
> I'm pretty sure that the computer "neuron" you're talking about here
> don't have the same complexity as a neuronal cell.  _If_ neuronal
> cells are on/of, and things like running low on chemicals in various
> parts of the neuron aren't important, maybe we can implement an ant.

He's using what's pretty standard usage in the AI community. For things
like "learning" a neuron has specific properties that are fairly easy
to model. They are more complex than "on/off" but less complex than
worrying about various chemical balances.

> 2. Learning systems which need human training, but could conceivably
> be "as good as" a human.  These systems actively acquire and use much
> more data than type 1.

And like humans have the potential to make the "wrong" decision. 

BTW, we *do* know how neural networks learn. It's just that in the real
world, a *lot* of the connections have been "pre-wired" by evolution.
That makes a *big* difference.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:13:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking

In mail you write:

>>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
> ...
>>The difference between theory and reality is pretty big.  If NASA or some
>>Japanese or European business started a base or colony on the moon, do you
>>think anyone would look up the moon the same way again?
>
>   Aren't we sort of ignoring the moon landings? A great revolutionary
> change, etc., and pretty much nobody cares anymore, within 30 years.

There are two schools of thought about this. 

1. The general public doesn't care.
2. NASA could make *sex* boring.

I consider it *criminal* that NASA and Congress together managed to
*throw away* the technology that got us to the moon *and* managed to
screw around until we lost Skylab as well.

Of course a good chunk of this can be laid at Nixon's door. Since he
didn't originate the program he was quick to dismantle it as soon as
the opportunity presented itself.

>>Possibly.  We "know" that conflict breeds better technology and opens new
>>vistas, but keep in mind that commercialization is another form of warfare.
>> It's just (usually) not as violent.
>
>   Of course, but most North American companies have too short a planning
> horizon to invest heavily. As time might be short, this becomes relevent.
> OTOH, a genuine need/want to achieve military (or prestige) aims will
> happily ignore short term limitations.

The "Harvard Business School" mindset that's led to the lack of long
range planning in US companies is starting to come under fire. But it
still has a *lot* to answer for.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 23:14:41 -0500
From: Greg Willis <jwillis@netdoor.com>
Subject: World Builders Handbook

Can anybody tell me where I could get the World Builders
Handbook?  I can't seem to find it anywhere.

I have seen it referenced here several times over the last
year or so, and I finally decided to go get it (yeah, I
know, a day late and a dollar short - probably).  :)
Naturally, the guy at the local hobby store didn't know what
I was talking about.  I have also looked on the net for any
information on it, but still can't seem to find anything
relevant.  So if some kind soul on the list could help me
out, I would greatly appreciate it.  Thanks guys.


Greg
jwillis@netdoor.com
______________________________________________________________________


 If you make something idiot proof, someone will make a
better idiot.
______________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:08:46 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards

I spell check, and THEN proof read with the red pencil. :-)

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:14:45 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: TNS ENTRIES

Dear Sir:

I already "copied and pasted" all of the IG TNS entries to my PC for my
personal use. Can I have your copyright data to add to it?

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 18:31:40 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

At 04:49 PM 07/04/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: Smart, David <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
>> >There are few cross-genre role-playing game systems. 
>> >Chaosium's "House System" (as seen in Runequest,
>> > Stormbringer, and Call of Cthulu) come to mind,
>> Don't forget "Ringworld"...I still dream about
>> Chaosium producing Traveller. (sigh) Oh, well.
>
>There is also Phoenix Command & Palladium.
>

And Torg/Master System. Now there's a game I haven't played for a long time.

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 05:16:11 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

> From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
>
> Fantasy Trip was the precursor to Dungeons and Dragons.  I remember
> playing it in a group, hardly seemed like modern day GURPS at all..Maybe
> in the dice mechanics..Is that what you mean?

Precursor to Dungeons and Dragons?  TFT came out in 1977 or so.  D&D came
out 74 or 75.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:18:18 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero -- Economics

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote

> >>You have described a whole system for killing off political
> >>leaders, debasing currencies, extracting all mineral wealth, etc.
> >Only in the first stages. And only political leaders who would not support
> >Imperium, currencies that posed a threat of economic dependence

> Just remember that debasing a currency is not going to make a planet one
> iota poorer. All it will do is to redistribute the wealth on the planet.
> If you don't physically remove goods from a planet, you don't remove any
> of its wealth.

But goods are worth what people believe they are worth.  Suppose that your
TL 6 planet were to make contact with the newly formed Imperium.  They
indicate that they will just be bringing in the really valuable things
at first but that in a decade or two they will be bringing in the grav
cars, supercomputers & other things you do not have.  Suddenly
everything you can buy now has a lower perceived worth because it is
inferior to the high tech goods coming later.  You reduce your marginal
spending.  Companies cut their production as their inventories pile up
& cash flow worsens.

So far we have the start of a the normal down side of the business
cycle.  It is now 5 years later & demand for consumer goods is
starting to pick up, but it is demand for high tech importeds goods
not the (relative) crap your local companies can make.  The local
companies cash flow stays poor.  Pretty soon you will have the
planetary economy in a depression.  The only thing stopping your
whole economy from falling apart is the fact that some of your 
planets factories are kept busy making lots of TL 6 goods which 
you use to pay for your TL 12 imports.  The Imperium then sells 
your goods on the neighboring TL 3 world.

> Furthermore, you can only debase a currency if it is backed
> by something concrete (and then only by _importing_ more of the same; a
> society which used an abstract accounting system would be immune to 
> anything short of counterfeiting or computer manipulation.

No the local money is worth what people think it is worth.  If you 
can't buy grav cars with local currency but can with hard currency 
Imperial Credits you may well quit your job in the TL 6 widget 
factory and become a maid or prostitute to the TL 12 Imperials who 
pay you in Imperial Credits.  You can than take these Imperial 
Credits to the "hard currency only" store the Imperials have set 
up on your planet for the benefit of their starport workers & buy 
the cool TL 12 goods you want.  If trade is still in its early 
stages you may not be able to go to a store but (if the price 
is right) you may be able to buy the clothes right off the 
Imperial Merchants back (the way Levis used to be sold behind 
the Iron Curtain).

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #377
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 8 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 378



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:  You might be a Traveller player if
Building Worlds, important questions...
Re: Traveller and Real World Technology
Re: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)
RE: Traveller and Real World Technology
Re: Traveller and Real World Technology
Re: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)
Re: TNS ENTRIES
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #377
Re: Traveller and Real World Technology)
Re: Traveller and Real World Technology)
Re:  GURPS Origins
RE: TNS ENTRIES
Re:  Boeing -- Boeing 
Re: You might be a Traveller player if
Re: Imperial Squadrons
RE: Milieu Zero -- Economics --my two cents worth
Re: Milieu Zero -- Economics
Re: Building Worlds, important questions...
Re: Building Worlds, important questions...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:24:05 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re:  You might be a Traveller player if

warmind@juno.com (james a clem) wrote

> You might be a Traveller player if....You let your car roll out of the
> driveway in neutral until you are far enough away to engage your [jump] drive.

So if you need to get to 100 diameters of the house before you can
engage the drive does this mean that all Traveller players need to live
at the top of a hill ?  I live at the bottom of a hill, at an elevation
of about 15 feet above sea level, & am somewhat concerned about this :)

- -- 
"My father warned me about men and booze, but he never mentioned a word
 about women and cocaine."   --   Talullah Bankhead

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 05:34:43 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Building Worlds, important questions...

I'm putting much more detail into my campaign (I'm using Book 6: Scouts to
generate full systems) and I have a question for those of you with more
world building skill then I.

I am terrible at chemistry.  Always have been, always will be.  Just a
blind spot.  What are some good chemical combinations for various
atmospheres?  I've got "exotic atmospheres", but, what specific chemicals
tend to go with each other?  This is a real weak point for me, and I'd like
to put some more info in the game (I get real tired of the atmospheres in
our own solar system, and start to sound like a broken record at times)...

I've got 2300, so I can manage to figure out chemicals that can be in a
planet's atmosphere, just not sure what mixtures would be common.

Another question that's been bugging me:  is there a way to figure out how
long a planet's day is?

And my final question.  If a world is the satellite of a gas giant, is
there a way to figure out the average temperature, or how much sunlight it
will receive?  Will it receive any sunlight at all when it's on the
opposite side of the gas giant.  That may sound kind of stupid, but I'm
just not sure of how that works.

Thanks for any help,

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:35:52 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

>dberry@hooked.net Douglas Berry wrote

> >That all depends.  My own way of doing it would be to make up a base
> >package for _Imperial_ human characters.  Then, if someone wants to be a
> >barbarian from a (Traveller) TL4 world, that would be a disadvantage to
> >him.  The disadvantage would work then as other GURPS disadvantages. 
> >Advantages are only advantages when they place the characters above 
> >the adventuring norm.
> 
> GURPS covers that by the disadvantage "Primative."  You could also add
> other disads to cover social stigmas and the like.

I think that he means that all Imperials from most planets would have
(for example) Rapid Healing (5 points), Fit (5 points), Cool (1 point),
Disease Resistant (5 points) (Total Cost 16 points) for free as part of
the "Imperial Human" package deal.  People from low tech planets who had
not had their anscenstors DNA played with would then have the 16 point
disadvantage - No Imperial Package Deal.

This would be in addition to the Primitive disadvantage and the
Barbarian Social Stigma they might have as well.

- -- 
"My father warned me about men and booze, but he never mentioned a word
 about women and cocaine."   --   Talullah Bankhead

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 02:43:38 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

> In February I found a guy at a booth at Dundracon who had TWO near-mint
> copies of Ringworld, AND the companion!  After changing my underwear, I
> quickly bought everything he had . . .  Yeah, I can see Traveller with the
> Chaosium System.
> 
> Brian ("Smells like chlorine in here!") Mays
> >
> 
Unfortunately I only have the Ringworld Companion..

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:43:27 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: RE: Traveller and Real World Technology

"Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com> wrote

> >What I would recommend is that you decide on a baseline "everybody is like
> >this" average - include average lifespan, disease immunities,
> >whatever.

> This, then, begs the question of why aging rolls begin in the 30's in
> Traveller . . . but let's not get into another "Traveller Technology: 
> The "Ford Pinto" of Science Fiction?" discussion, shall we?  ;-)

In the "Real World" lots of athletes find themselves washed up at age 25
(Olympic Gymnasts even earlier) even if they avoid injury.  I do not
have any problem arguing that Traveller aging rolls start to _late_ not
too soon.  In prefered the GDW House system under which aging rolls were
made on a d10 against your charecteristic & you had to roll the stat or
over or suffer a point of loss.  So a 25 year old (or whatever age it
used) Str 10 Dex 10 Con 10 athlete would have to roll 10's on all 3 dice
& would have literally only one chance in a thousand of being the man he
was yestersday stat wise.  Conversely a 25 year old Str 2 Dex 2 Con 2
couch potato would have little chance of suffering aging lossses.

- -- 
"My father warned me about men and booze, but he never mentioned a word
 about women and cocaine."   --   Talullah Bankhead

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 02:49:41 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

> Dungeons and Dragons was released in 1974, designed by Gary Gygax and Dave
> Arneson.  Melee, the Microgame that was the first part of TFT, was released
> in '76 or '77, IIRC.  This was followed by Wizard, then In The Labrynth.
> All fo these were designed by Steve Jackson.  When Metagaming went flop, he
> tried to take TFT with him, but only could get the rights to the concpets,
> not the name.  So GURPS was born.
> 
> I'm sure Loren will check with Evil Stevie himself to correct any places I
> got this wrong.


Hmm..All these years I thought Fantasy Trip came BEFORE D&D..Interesting.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 02:51:14 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: GURP origins (was re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

Legate wrote:
> 
> > From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
> > > I really liked Metagaming - ObTrav: anyone use Ogres (or BOLO's, or
> > > Berserkers, or other really big combat robots) IYTU?
> > > Walt Smith
> > I use Bolos.
> 
> I use Bolos & Berserkers.


Well, it's been YEARS since I read the original series of "Berserker"
books, but essentially they are probably what inspired the "BORG" from
Star Trek.  I don't remember a lot of details from the books however.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 02:59:51 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: TNS ENTRIES

>         First off, the original entries are on my site and currently cover till year
> 1125 or so (including source where they came from). IG swiped the info from my
> site (but they did give me credit). However my site's not fully functional (if
> someone can show me how to fix the broken links properly I should be able to
> fix that problem easily).
> 


No problem,  I write HTML.  Send me the source code and the names of the
links and where those links are.

Example, link#1="timeline1.html"

or if in the same document, "<a name="timeline1.html#year1120">"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 21:31:50
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #377

>Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:18:18 -0800
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>Subject: Re: Milieu Zero -- Economics
>
>But goods are worth what people believe they are worth.  Suppose that

No. Goods have exchange value and use value. Under exchange value, yes they
are worth what people think they are worth, but use value is more constant.

>your
>TL 6 planet were to make contact with the newly formed Imperium.  They
>indicate that they will just be bringing in the really valuable things
>at first but that in a decade or two they will be bringing in the grav
>cars, supercomputers & other things you do not have.  Suddenly
>everything you can buy now has a lower perceived worth because it is
>inferior to the high tech goods coming later.  You reduce your marginal
>spending.  Companies cut their production as their inventories pile up
>& cash flow worsens.

The problem is that most of the stuff you list is TL9-10, not TL12. If a
merchant shows up with a heap of TL9 grav plates, TL10 computers etc, then
your people will trade with him - the fact that his low-orbit grav cars are
50% bigger than Mr Imperial's doesnt matter a lot if they too can boost
your Soyuz into low-planet orbit, from where it can make it's way to the
moon under it's own power.

>
>So far we have the start of a the normal down side of the business
>cycle.  It is now 5 years later & demand for consumer goods is
>starting to pick up, but it is demand for high tech importeds goods
>not the (relative) crap your local companies can make.  The local
>companies cash flow stays poor.  Pretty soon you will have the
>planetary economy in a depression.  The only thing stopping your
>whole economy from falling apart is the fact that some of your 
>planets factories are kept busy making lots of TL 6 goods which 
>you use to pay for your TL 12 imports.  The Imperium then sells 
>your goods on the neighboring TL 3 world.

Demand by a world for imported hi-tech goods has a severe limit - the
amount of hard currency a world can get through exports.

The other possibility, given free-ish capital flows (which the ZSC
implicitly assumes will not exist) is offplanet interests do an equity
swap, in exchange for upgrading your TL from 6 to, say, 8 (not horrifically
expensive in PE). TL8 is close enough to the 'standard' interstellar TL of
10 or 11 to be able to be vaguely competetive in the trade stakes.

For example, TL8 fission plants and det lasers are functionally identical
to the higher-tech models, and if your exchange rate is low enough then TL8
beam pointers and sensors start to become tempting as well.

Once your world is TL8, it will be able to build enough stuff that other
planets will want to be able to afford enough hi-tech goods to keep the
boom going.

You will also get the Resources boost from being able to exploit the other
worlds of your system.

>No the local money is worth what people think it is worth.  If you 
>can't buy grav cars with local currency but can with hard currency 
>Imperial Credits you may well quit your job in the TL 6 widget 
>factory and become a maid or prostitute to the TL 12 Imperials who 
>pay you in Imperial Credits.  You can than take these Imperial 
>Credits to the "hard currency only" store the Imperials have set 
>up on your planet for the benefit of their starport workers & buy 
>the cool TL 12 goods you want.  If trade is still in its early 
>stages you may not be able to go to a store but (if the price 
>is right) you may be able to buy the clothes right off the 
>Imperial Merchants back (the way Levis used to be sold behind 
>the Iron Curtain).

If Imperials need to buy anything from the planet, then you will have an
exchange rate. Then it is merely a matter of price ...

My view of the Imperium is that a major export of the lo-tech worlds will
be people, especially into the Imperial services with pensions. Doing 20
years in the IN to get a Cr4000 pension isnt a good deal for a Sylean
factory worker earning Cr12000 a year, but it's well worthwhile for someone
from some iceball on the frontier with an average income of a thousand
Imperial credits a year each. An implication of this is a class-ridden Navy
- - the officers are upper-class Syleans doing it out of duty or as a way of
seeing the universe before a job with Dada's firm, while the other ranks
are from the poor and underdeveloped worlds of the Imperial fringe.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:01:11 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 02:51:14 -0700 J-Man <j-man@iname.com> writes:
>Legate wrote:

>> 
>> I use Bolos & Berserkers.
>
>
>Well, it's been YEARS since I read the original series of "Berserker"
>books, but essentially they are probably what inspired the "BORG" from
>Star Trek.  I don't remember a lot of details from the books however.
>

Heh!  If you think the Borg are bad, the Berserkers are worse.  They
don't assimilate you, they slaughter you!!  Typical tactic is simply to
arrive in orbit over a planet, then pound the surface into a miles deep
radioactive morass of lava and steam.  Or drop a biological bomb.  Or
cause the sun to go nova.  If a Berserker does take a prisoner, they are
usually horribly altered, or they might become a sort of apostle of
death, serving the machine willing if they are twisted enough.  Their
ships are the size of Manhattan Island, or larger.  


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+
You might be a Traveller player if....You let your car roll out of the
driveway in neutral until you are far enough away to engage your drive.
Borg:  Resistance is futile!
Berserker:  (sounds of mechanical laughter) Resistance? Engage multi
giga-ton armament!
Borg:  OHHHH SHI..............................................

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:48:06 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology)

On Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:06:31 -0400 "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
writes:
>
>I really liked Metagaming - ObTrav: anyone use Ogres (or BOLO's, or
>Berserkers, or other really big combat robots) IYTU?
>


I love OGRE, I still play PBEM when I can.  There has long been a  war on
the OGRE mailing list (send subscribe to hcobb@io.com, Henry Cobb runs
this list by hand!!!!) about whether the OGRE universe (Ogreverse) can be
home to an rpg.  I'm presently seriously considering starting such a
campaign, set in the future of the present Ogre miniatures timeline. 
Basically, Mankind finally gets its act together and heads out for the
stars, only to find threats that require the re-birth of the OGRES.  I'm
presently attempting to configure an OGRE Mk V using FFS2 as a design
system.  The BPC (bi-phase carbide) armor is something I have to model in
Trav terms, but the use of rail-guns (mass drivers) and mini tac-nukes
(collapsing rounds) already exist in FFS2.   Any other OGRE players out
there?


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+
You might be a Traveller player if....You let your car roll out of the
driveway in neutral until you are far enough away to engage your drive.
aka: Unit JAC of the Line, Ogre Mk V

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:14:11 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re:  GURPS Origins

>Walter Smith wrote:
>
>I really liked Metagaming - ObTrav: anyone use Ogres (or BOLO's, or
>Berserkers, or other really big combat robots) IYTU?
>

I never actually used Ogres IMTU.  As they seem to be way out of canon,
I was anticipating using them either as a research project gone haywire
(PCs need to destroy one) or as the weapon of choice on a newly
contacted world...  I'd love to hear the answer to this one!

Cheers,  
 
Greg Smith      \\\\!////
               \\  _ _  //
                (  @ @  )
**************o00o-(_)-o00o******************************************
*****                                                           *****
*****  Smith & Wesson:  The original Point and Click Interface  *****
*****                                                           *****
*********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:25:57 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: TNS ENTRIES

> Kagehira posted:
>
>First off, the original entries are on my site and currently cover till year
>1125 or so (including source where they came from). IG swiped the info from
>my site (but they did give me credit). However my site's not fully functional (if
>someone can show me how to fix the broken links properly I should be able
>to fix that problem easily).
>
>I also sent a copy to be used for the Not-IG site. And I might send one to
>SJG for their use (though understandably only through 1112).
<snip>
>Bryan

Huzzah for Bryan!

If anyone is interested, I have .GIFs or .JPGs (I forget which) of the
covers for CT, MT (player's book), and TNE (player's book). They
look pretty good on T-shirts if you happen to have a color printer
which can make transfers (just don't sell them; they're copyrighted).
They also make pretty decent wallpaper for Windows.

If you'd like a copy, please email my alter ego at warlock@imagin.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:28:39 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re:  Boeing -- Boeing 

The following is taken from a website about KC135 experiments.  It is
the aircraft used to do the zero gravity training and was used in the
filming of Apollo 13.  Interesting that the occupants pull 2-gs and 0-gs
in succession.... web site is 

http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/phys/nasalab/kc135.html

"The KC-135 is a NASA airplane which provides a special opportunity to
perform experiments in microgravity. The modified Boeing
707 flies in parabolas, resulting in 2-g during the pullout, and 0-g for
a period of 25-30 seconds over the top. The plane is used for
0-g experiments, as well as for astronaut training. A typical week of
flying will be 40 parabolas a day, four flights per week. To those
who have experienced the thrill of floating, the KC-135 is fondly known
as the "Vomit Comet." "

Greg Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:54:42 -0500
From: "talisman" <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: You might be a Traveller player if

> > You might be a Traveller player if....You let your car roll out of the
> > driveway in neutral until you are far enough away to engage your [jump]
drive.

I have a Manuver drive only in my car, so I don't have to worry about this.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:05:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Squadrons

Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk> wrote:

> At the scale of IS, it should be fine to use Cr1 Trillion (200 RUs) for 
> a CruRon and Cr2 trillion (400 RUs) for a BatRon.  While it would be 
> nice to rate detailed designs from FFS, the differences become small at 
> squadron level.  However, I do feel that squadron combat should have 
> some TL effects (a bit like SDB TL effects).

Hm.  Doesn't it, though?  As I recall, when you design a squadron, tech
level has an impact on the squadron's factors.  Therefore, a tech-12 
BatRon would end up weaker than a tech-15 BatRon.  That would abstract
away the need for any further TL comparison during fleet combat.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:58:35 -0400
From: "David" <Bushta@Prodigy.Net>
Subject: RE: Milieu Zero -- Economics --my two cents worth

TL 6 planet were to make contact with the newly formed Imperium.  They
indicate that they will just be bringing in the really valuable things
at first but that in a decade or two they will be bringing in the grav
cars, supercomputers & other things you do not have.  Suddenly
everything you can buy now has a lower perceived worth because it is
inferior to the high tech goods coming later.  You reduce your marginal
spending.  Companies cut their production as their inventories pile up
& cash flow worsens.

Here is what I see about this discussion.  The T6 planet that just made
contact with the imperium knows some really cool high tech gear is on the
way and also it knows it is really expensive.  But this does not mean the
whole planet will know.  Probably just a select few because advertising is
really expensive (just look at some of our world's prices-this would be
worse at lower tech levels.)  More than likely, the head or heads of the
planet will meet together with the really big corporations to decide what
technology to buy and to discuss problems with the alliance.  They would
probably even go over the idea that the new items will reduce the value of
their items.  They will make plans to handle the situation. Some steps they
could take are:

1. Limit the amount of information spread to the common people.
2. Add strict import controls and high tax to the imperium goods.
3. Limit the distribution channels for the imperium goods.  They could even
insist that only their planet's compaines can sell imperium goods-This keeps
resources on the planet while maximizing exports.  AKA business is booming.
4. Find other traders and do some comparison shopping.  There is enough
greedy people in the galaxy willing to do this.  Also when the news that a
new planet is open for trade, a lot of people will have visions of getting
rich quick.  Including, the sellers of stolen things.

And while they stifle the flow of imperium goods they do every thing in
their power to gain technology advances.  Including #4 of the above.

So far we have the start of a the normal down side of the business
cycle.  It is now 5 years later & demand for consumer goods is
starting to pick up, but it is demand for high tech importeds goods
not the (relative) crap your local companies can make.  The local
companies cash flow stays poor.  Pretty soon you will have the
planetary economy in a depression.  The only thing stopping your
whole economy from falling apart is the fact that some of your
planets factories are kept busy making lots of TL 6 goods which
you use to pay for your TL 12 imports.  The Imperium then sells
your goods on the neighboring TL 3 world.

Okay, five years down the road.  There is probably only a limited demand for
some imperium goods.  You have to remember the planet controls the
advertising and distribution channels and have more than likely advanced
their tech level through legal or illegal means.  All and all, Business has
never been better.
   But couldn't the imperium go around local channels.  Sure, but then the
local companies generate propaganda  "Mom and children vaporized while using
black-market food processor"  " Minister of Trade declares major safety
proplems found on new tech items from imperium"  Etc.  Basically they know
their planet much better than outsiders and have the resources to work with.


No the local money is worth what people think it is worth.

And what the people think is highly influenced by advertising and news.  If
the common person doesn't know that the imperium has these nice goodies, how
can he or she buy them.

Vale,
David

Bushta@Prodigy.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:15:49 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero -- Economics

Peter Newman writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
> 
>>Just remember that debasing a currency is not going to make a planet one
>>iota poorer. All it will do is to redistribute the wealth on the planet.
>>If you don't physically remove goods from a planet, you don't remove any
>>of its wealth.
> 
>But goods are worth what people believe they are worth.

No, they are worth whatever people are willing to pay for them, which isn't
quite the same thing. If you have 100 customers for 100 cars and some joker
brings in 100 grav cars to sell for about the same as you wanted for your
cars, then they are suddenly worthless. But if someone introduces a single
grav car, then your cars are still worth pretty much the same. And if
someone brings in 100 grav cars and sell them for 10 times what you want
for your cars, you'd still be able to sell quite a few of your cars. If
the grav car cost 1000 times as much, you can propably sell almost all
your cars anyway.

>Suppose that your TL 6 planet were to make contact with the newly formed
>Imperium.  They indicate that they will just be bringing in the really
>valuable things at first but that in a decade or two they will be bringing
>in the grav cars, supercomputers & other things you do not have.  Suddenly
>everything you can buy now has a lower perceived worth because it is
>inferior to the high tech goods coming later.

Percieved worth? Relative to what? "I have bad news and I have good news.
The bad news is that your money is now worth only half as much as yesterday.
The good news is that all prices are halved."

>You reduce your marginal spending. Companies cut their production as their
>inventories pile up & cash flow worsens.

Just as people refrain from buying computers because they know beyond a
shadow of a doubt that they can get a better one for the same money in
another 6 months? People will still prefer a car today rather than a grav
car in 20 years. Besides, goods are only a part of a planet's wealth.
Other parts are the food produced and the services rendered, neither of
which can very readily be saved up for a rainy day.

>So far we have the start of a the normal down side of the business cycle.
>It is now 5 years later & demand for consumer goods is starting to pick
>up, but it is demand for high tech importeds goods not the (relative) crap
>your local companies can make.

That most certainly depends on the relative cost of the "crap" and the high
tech goods.

>The local companies cash flow stays poor. Pretty soon you will have the
>planetary economy in a depression.  The only thing stopping your whole
>economy from falling apart is the fact that some of your planet's
>factories are kept busy making lots of TL 6 goods which you use to pay
>for your TL 12 imports.

Since there is no way you can import enough to cover the demands of an
entire world (I'm assuming a sizable population here), you will still
have a lot of factories making goods for your citizens.


Remember, you can only exchange your TL 6 goods for TL 12 goods if you can
find a buyer who is willing to exchange TL 12 goods for TL 6 goods. And
the only way your buyer can recoup his investment is to physically pick
up your goods, load them onto a spaceship, and fly them to some place
where he can find someone willing to exchange them for something that is
worth more to the buyer than the original loaqd of TL 12 goods. Certainly
the Imperial can buy many shiploads of TL 6 goods for a single load of
TL 12 goods, but they still need to remove all those shiploads of TL 6
goods and realize their value somewhere else. It will take a lot of
spaceship tonnage to rape even a single a world of a significant part
of its raw material wealth.

>The Imperium then sells your goods on the neighboring TL 3 world.

Assuming they can find a TL 3 world with something they want to sell. And
they still have to move the TL 6 goods to the TL 3 world and then move
whatever they got on the TL 3 world home.
 
>>Furthermore, you can only debase a currency if it is backed
>>by something concrete (and then only by _importing_ more of the same; a
>>society which used an abstract accounting system would be immune to 
>>anything short of counterfeiting or computer manipulation.
> 
>No the local money is worth what people think it is worth.

The worth of a currency is established by what you can buy with it. If you
introduce more money into a system, you get inflation because you have
more money for the same amount of goods and services. If you remove money
you get deflation. If you have an accounting system that prevents the
removal or introduction of money, you have a system immune to inflation
and deflation (well, on the money side; change in the amount of goods and
services produced will also have similar effects). However, inflation and
deflation dosen't change the amount of wealth in the system, just how it
is distributed.

>If you can't buy grav cars with local currency but can with hard currency 
>Imperial Credits you may well quit your job in the TL 6 widget 
>factory and become a maid or prostitute to the TL 12 Imperials who 
>pay you in Imperial Credits.

Sure, but the Imperial credits are worth even less than the local unless
you CAN buy grav cars with them. Which again requires the existence of a
spaceship to ship it in. And when you ship in TL 12 goods you introduce
wealth into the system just as you remove wealth by shipping out TL 6
goods.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 10:24:31 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Building Worlds, important questions...

> Another question that's been bugging me:  is there a way to figure out how
> long a planet's day is?
>
> And my final question.  If a world is the satellite of a gas giant, is
> there a way to figure out the average temperature, or how much sunlight it
> will receive?  Will it receive any sunlight at all when it's on the
> opposite side of the gas giant.  That may sound kind of stupid, but I'm
> just not sure of how that works.

If you use Accrete, it tells you this stuff. However, any satellite of a gas
giant would need artificial environments.  It would most likely be tidally
locked to the GG (one face always points at the GG) thus its day and "year"
would be the same.  This would be at least a month I think, and probably alot
longer the farther out you go.  The result would be extreme heat on the sunny
side for half the year followed by extreme cold.  The inner surface would be
cold all the time with just a few glimpses of the sun each year (either the GG
would block it or it would be facing the wrong direction.)

I

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:34:02 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Building Worlds, important questions...

>I'm putting much more detail into my campaign (I'm using Book 6: Scouts to
>generate full systems) and I have a question for those of you with more
>world building skill then I.
>
>I am terrible at chemistry.  Always have been, always will be.  Just a
>blind spot.  What are some good chemical combinations for various
>atmospheres?  I've got "exotic atmospheres", but, what specific chemicals
>tend to go with each other?  This is a real weak point for me, and I'd like
>to put some more info in the game (I get real tired of the atmospheres in
>our own solar system, and start to sound like a broken record at times)...

There is a great book called "World Building, a Science Fiction Writer's
Guide..."  by Stephen Gillett and Ben Bova.  I found it on Amazon.com at
the address below;

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0898797071/001-5156909-3303167

Apologies; it was recommended to me on this list and I cannot remember who
suggested it.  Thanks anyway!

>Another question that's been bugging me:  is there a way to figure out how
>long a planet's day is?

I seem to recall that this is in the Scouts sequence.  I also seem to
remember (from the source above) that the older a solar system is the more
likely a planet is to be "tidally locked", i.e. on face always towards the
planet its orbiting (which our moon is; we always see the same side).

>And my final question.  If a world is the satellite of a gas giant, is
>there a way to figure out the average temperature, or how much sunlight it
>will receive?  Will it receive any sunlight at all when it's on the
>opposite side of the gas giant.  That may sound kind of stupid, but I'm
>just not sure of how that works.

It doesn't sound stupid to me, I don't really know.  As a guideline
however, think of how rare lunar eclipses are on Earth.  Also note that the
earth casts two "grades" of shadow on the moon; The Umbra and Penumbra.
The Penumbra borders the Umbra and is somewhat less dark (I think it has to
do with refracted light passed through the earth's atmosphere).

As for temperature; Don't gas giants form in cooler (relatively) reaches of
the solar system?

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #378
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 8 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 379



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller and Real World Technology
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #368
Re: Nebulosity and Jump Drive
Ringworld (Was RE: GURP...)
RE: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #377
re: Milieu Zero -- Economics
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #378
IG Website gone?
Re: Building Worlds, important questions...
Re: Building Worlds, important questions...
RE: Milieu Zero -- Economics --my two cents worth
Re: Building Worlds, important questions...
RE: Building Worlds, important questions...
Re:Galactic
CT lbbs
Adventure Cargo
Re: IG Website gone?
Re: CT lbbs
Re: World Builders Handbook
Re: Ship Cards
Re: GURPS Origins
Something I just learned...
Re: CT lbbs (list included)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 07:43:50 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

At 01:35 AM 4/8/98 -0800, you wrote:

>I think that he means that all Imperials from most planets would have
>(for example) Rapid Healing (5 points), Fit (5 points), Cool (1 point),
>Disease Resistant (5 points) (Total Cost 16 points) for free as part of
>the "Imperial Human" package deal.  People from low tech planets who had
>not had their anscenstors DNA played with would then have the 16 point
>disadvantage - No Imperial Package Deal.

Since the majority of character will probably be Imperials, I'd avoid using
a generic package deal for them.. they are the baseline.

Since the IISS deals with odd planets on a semi-constant basis, I can see
giving them Immunity to Disease and Rapid Healing as part of their package
deal.  When it comes to longevity and healing, GURPS covers that by slowly
increasing the age where deterioration starts and raising the effectiveness
of medical treatment.  (GURPS pg 128 and G:Space)

>This would be in addition to the Primitive disadvantage and the
>Barbarian Social Stigma they might have as well.

Primitive only applies if you start out as a primitive.  If the default
GURPS TL for the Imperium is 10 (what I figure it to be), and your
character is from a tech-7 world with no advanced equipment, you'd get a 15
point disadvantage.  As you gained hi-tech goodies, you'd have to pay off
those points.

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:47:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #368

In mail you write:

>>No need to worry about dust. You see, at weapons level intenities
>>(above about 1 MW/cm^2) *air* undergoes ionization breakdown. That
>>means that chunks of the air in the beam turn into plasma, which glows
>>as it recombines into "normal" gases. I've seen photos of a beam inside
>>a lab and it looks like a cheap special effect! 
>
> I'm not sure that the photo you saw was of ionization breakdown. Even without
> it, rayleigh scattering of a bright beam off of air or dust is very visible;
> our laser guide star beam (20 W in a 30-cm-diameter beam) is easily visible
> (at night); it does indeed look a special effect - you can see it from about
> a mile away. In daylight, beams are harder to see but a 60-W YAG beam in a
> milimeter or so is fairly visible.
>
> Ionization breakdown, on the other hand, is spectacular but also usually bad
> news, I gather, as the ionized air is opaque to the laser beam and hence
> tends to make the laser destroy itself.

It was specifically *labeled* as being ionization breakdown. One
telltale is that the glowing areas are *very* patchy. 

> Traveller weapons lasers are pulsed (millisecond pulses) and are probably
> outside of the visible-light range, so you'll need sensors to track them
> back to their firing source - and advanced sensors will also be able to 
> track gauss slugs back to their firing point too.

If there's any ionization, that *will* have visible output...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:13:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Nebulosity and Jump Drive

In mail you write:

> Hiya everyone. Does anyone know if there's anything in canon 
> concerning the effect of nebulae on jump drive? IMTU, I've got a new 
> campaign setting in the vacinity of the Orion Nebula, and the sector 
> is full of nebulosity. Also, would you think that emission nebulae 
> might have more of an effect than reflection and dark nebulae given 
> the fact that emission nebulae are strongly ionized? I'd like to hear 
> your opinion.

It helps to recall that all of those nebula are a *better* vacuum than
you could in make in a lab 30 years ago! Think of them as a somewhat
more intense "solar wind". They aren't apt to do much.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:06:40 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Ringworld (Was RE: GURP...)

>Don't forget "Ringworld"...I still dream about
>Chaosium producing Traveller. (sigh) Oh, well.

And some of us complained about the Foss artwork needlessly increasing the
price of the IG books. Do you know what Chaosioum paid for the boxcover of
ringworld?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:08:21 -0400
From: John Toth <jtoth@erols.com>
Subject: RE: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

- -------------------------------->
If you want to do 3G3 right, go to hyperbooks online and download the
spreadsheet.  It's Excel5, and does just about everything for you.
- -------------------------------->


Must... Have.... Link.... LINK....


John
If it doesn't move and doesn't make any noise, it must be dead.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:31:11 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #377

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) says
  In mail you write:
  > kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne) says
  >         Back to real life :
  >         Its posible to implement the same number of neurons an ant has
  >         (10k neurons) on a 4dx33/8MB. 
  >
  > I'm pretty sure that the computer "neuron" you're talking about here
  > don't have the same complexity as a neuronal cell.  _If_ neuronal
  > cells are on/of, and things like running low on chemicals in various
  > parts of the neuron aren't important, maybe we can implement an ant.
  
  He's using what's pretty standard usage in the AI community. For things
  like "learning" a neuron has specific properties that are fairly easy
  to model. They are more complex than "on/off" but less complex than
  worrying about various chemical balances.

I agree, it's pretty standard in the AI community.  The AI community
generally recognizes that an artificial neuron which outputs f(x1, x2,
x3...), where x1-xn are the inputs, is an _approximation_ of what a
biological neuron does.  It happens to be "good enough" to do some
intelligent-seeming behavior.  But on a larger scale, we don't know if
other biological effects are important, and often we completely
neglect temporal delays in order to simplify the artificial networks
the point where we can deal with them.
  
  BTW, we *do* know how neural networks learn. It's just that in the real
  world, a *lot* of the connections have been "pre-wired" by evolution.
  That makes a *big* difference.

We know a way to make artificial neural networks approximate a
function, under certain limitations on the function and certain
limitations on the network.  That doesn't mean we know how biological
networks actually learn.

Example (and it's been a couple years since I took that neural
networks course, so forgive me any minor inaccuracies): Assume each
artificial neuron has a slight delay and there is feedback.  Keep it
simple - the last layer's output is connected to the first layer's
input.  You can write out the equations for backpropogation, the
common learning method.  However, because of the feedback these
equations are no longer simple enough that I would believe they would
be implemented by naturally occuring biological systems.

Hence, I believe we haven't figured out how biological systems really
learn.

  
  > 2. Learning systems which need human training, but could conceivably
  > be "as good as" a human.  These systems actively acquire and use much
  > more data than type 1.
  
  And like humans have the potential to make the "wrong" decision. 

Gets better than that, actually -- once you train the system, you can
copy it.  Now each copy has the potential to make the same wrong
decision.  OBTRAV: I would imagine criminals could make use of this.

	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com
	  ringrose@ai.mit.edu

I don't have a reliable source for this story, but it's funny and
semi-relevant so I'll pass it on anyway. :>

I once heard about an experiment with an autonomous vehicle which was
being tested outdoors.  Because of an error in its programming, it
plotted a course which ran over a bush, rather than avoiding it.

The researchers involved found an error which would result in this
behavior and corrected it, put the vehicle back, and were mildly
surprised when it promptly ran over the bush again.

Some head-scratching and a few more tries ensued, with the vehicle
continuing to run over the defenseless bush.  It turns out that they
had gotten the bugs out, but the initial collision had flattened the
bush to the point where the sensors no longer considered it an
obstacle and through the bush _was_ the optimal path to its programmed
destination.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:44:05 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Milieu Zero -- Economics

David wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And what the people think is highly influenced by advertising and news.  If
the common person doesn't know that the imperium has these nice goodies,
how can he or she buy them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You'd need the cooperation of the Imperium to keep this stuff secret - once
El Presidente is seen flying around in his spanking new Air/Raft, everyone
will want one - and some Free Trader from the Imperium will want to
sell it to them. Unless the ruling regime is quite totalitarian, the secret
will get out very, very quickly.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:39:33 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #378

Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil> says

  "The KC-135 is a NASA airplane which provides a special opportunity to
  perform experiments in microgravity. The modified Boeing
  707 flies in parabolas, resulting in 2-g during the pullout, and 0-g for
  a period of 25-30 seconds over the top. The plane is used for
  0-g experiments, as well as for astronaut training. A typical week of
  flying will be 40 parabolas a day, four flights per week. To those
  who have experienced the thrill of floating, the KC-135 is fondly known
  as the "Vomit Comet." "

While I was in the MIT Leg Lab, we saw some videotape of low-gravity
running experiments done in the Vomit Comet.  The description is
completely accurate.  People were throwing up despite fairly
heavy-duty medication to prevent motion sickness.

	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:45:46 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: IG Website gone?

Anybody know if IG has pulled their website yet? I tried to access it
just 5 minutes ago and received:

"Fatal Error 500

Can't Access Document: http://www.imperiumgames.com/links.html. 

Reason: System call `connect' failed: Host is unreachable. "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:52:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Building Worlds, important questions...

In mail you write:

>>And my final question.  If a world is the satellite of a gas giant, is
>>there a way to figure out the average temperature, or how much sunlight it
>>will receive?  Will it receive any sunlight at all when it's on the
>>opposite side of the gas giant.  That may sound kind of stupid, but I'm
>>just not sure of how that works.
>
> It doesn't sound stupid to me, I don't really know.  As a guideline
> however, think of how rare lunar eclipses are on Earth.  Also note that the
> earth casts two "grades" of shadow on the moon; The Umbra and Penumbra.
> The Penumbra borders the Umbra and is somewhat less dark (I think it has to
> do with refracted light passed through the earth's atmosphere).

No, it has to do with the fact that the sun isn't a point source of
light. The umbra is the are where you can't see *any* of the sun. The
penumbra is the area where you can see only *part* of the sun.

> As for temperature; Don't gas giants form in cooler (relatively) reaches of
> the solar system?

In *our* solar system. But there's nothing stopping them from being a
lot closer. They've discovered a planet more massive than Jupiter
orbiting another star closer than Mercury orbits the sun! 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:48:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Building Worlds, important questions...

In mail you write:

>> Another question that's been bugging me:  is there a way to figure out how
>> long a planet's day is?
>>
>> And my final question.  If a world is the satellite of a gas giant, is
>> there a way to figure out the average temperature, or how much sunlight it
>> will receive?  Will it receive any sunlight at all when it's on the
>> opposite side of the gas giant.  That may sound kind of stupid, but I'm
>> just not sure of how that works.
>
> If you use Accrete, it tells you this stuff. However, any satellite of a gas
> giant would need artificial environments.  It would most likely be tidally
> locked to the GG (one face always points at the GG) thus its day and "year"
> would be the same.  This would be at least a month I think, and probably alot
> longer the farther out you go.

Check the orbital periods for the satellites of Jupiter and Saturn.
They are around a *week* (4-10 days). Remember, because the primary is
so massive, they have to orbit a lot faster. As an example, on of
Jupiters moons has the same size orbit as the moon. But instead of 29.5
days, it orbits in *3* days!


> The result would be extreme heat on the sunny
> side for half the year followed by extreme cold.  The inner surface would be
> cold all the time with just a few glimpses of the sun each year (either the 
> GG would block it or it would be facing the wrong direction.)

The gas giant won't block the sun except during a small portion of the
orbit. You might get an hour worth of eclipse out of an orbit that
lasts a week. Sure, the gg is big, but the orbits are *really* big.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:22:45 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: RE: Milieu Zero -- Economics --my two cents worth

A few points I would note...

>They will make plans to handle the situation. Some steps they
>could take are:

>1. Limit the amount of information spread to the common people.
If the planet has any sort of free-trade at all this will be impossible.
The Imperium has _scads_ of money. They can buy as much advertising space
as they want. In the sort of scenarios we played out it was worth the
Imperium _giving away_ a world's worth of transister radios, TVs or
Holo-Sets (depending on which had an order of magnitude more wow than what
they were using) and setting up orbital broadcasting stations.
Since bread and circuses have a great appeal to the population, any
government that tries very hard to stop their spread will not be popular
and subject to overthrow, with a little help from the Imperium. The
politicians will know this. They are far more likely to play along as long
as they can have loads of dosh to pad their pockets.

>2. Add strict import controls and high tax to the imperium goods.
Again, if they keep too much of the Bread and Circuses away from the
populace, they become unpopular, and life proceedes as above. High tax
won't bother the Imperium too much as long as they can subsidise it. Unless
they have laws about below-cost selling, but then re-run the above
scenario.
In certain circumstances it is good to have the government have a good
source of hard-currency. If they planet's government has no money, then
they need to use Imperial Aid to build up their Infrastructure to modern
levels. If they have money, then they can pay for it. In the latter case
they end up with less off-world debt (either moral or fiscal depending on
whether the aid was chairty or loans) but probably not by an order of
magnitude.

>3. Limit the distribution channels for the imperium goods.  They could
even
>insist that only their planet's compaines can sell imperium goods-
By the plan the Imperium should be doing this anyway. "Forming Strateigic
Partnerships." Half-native owned companies will want to make loads of money
as well and will petition their own government against any restrictions
that keep them from making what they might otherwise make.

>4. Find other traders and do some comparison shopping.
This one is right out. Milieu-0 is not the normal Imperium. Church and
State may be separate but Trade and Navy are not. The Imperial government
is, basically, Zhanustu Inc. The Navy is there totally to support the
trading interests. They aren't hands off like in 1100. If anyone the
Imperial Government disaproves of tries to trade in any quantity then the
Navy is there to stop them.

>There is enough greedy people in the galaxy ...
Which underlies much of my logic. Goverments will more likely adopt schemes
that make them richer. Politicans will more likely adopt schemes that put
more money in their pockets. People will support things that give them more
bread and circuses.
Cynical, absolutely, it is looks like the Real World to me. If you don't
want hand-lasers without powered backpacks, why would you want a universe
where it isn't money that makes the world go 'round?

Hard or soft. You pick.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:39:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Building Worlds, important questions...

On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > The result would be extreme heat on the sunny
> > side for half the year followed by extreme cold.  The inner surface would be
> > cold all the time with just a few glimpses of the sun each year (either the 
> > GG would block it or it would be facing the wrong direction.)
> 
> The gas giant won't block the sun except during a small portion of the
> orbit. You might get an hour worth of eclipse out of an orbit that
> lasts a week. Sure, the gg is big, but the orbits are *really* big.

And that's assuming the orbit is in the same plane as the gas giant's
orbit.  If the moons are tilted at all, then the gas giant will only
eclipse the sun on some orbits.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:43:52 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Building Worlds, important questions...

>
>>>And my final question.  If a world is the satellite of a gas giant, is
>>>there a way to figure out the average temperature, or how much
>sunlight it
>>>will receive?  Will it receive any sunlight at all when it's on the
>>>opposite side of the gas giant.  That may sound kind of stupid, but I'm
>>>just not sure of how that works.
>>
>> It doesn't sound stupid to me, I don't really know.  As a guideline
>> however, think of how rare lunar eclipses are on Earth.  Also
>note that the
>> earth casts two "grades" of shadow on the moon; The Umbra and Penumbra.
>> The Penumbra borders the Umbra and is somewhat less dark (I
>think it has to
>> do with refracted light passed through the earth's atmosphere).

My astronomy is a little rusty, but don't large gas giants radiate heat?  A
satellite therefore might be warmed by the Gas Giant and also be very very
dark . . .

Brian ("Look at Endor, for God's sake!"  :)    )  Mays

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:44:22 -0700
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re:Galactic

Is there a file available that has been done for M:0?

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:47:51 -0700
From: Andrew Gingery <gingerya@ohsu.edu>
Subject: CT lbbs

Hi. I've just joined this list and just got back to traveller after a long time
away. I seem to have just read a post implying that someone might know where I
could still buy remainders of old CT books? From MM?

Is this true? Anybody know? 
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                    

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:22:32 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Adventure Cargo

This is a web page on S. John Ross's excellent (non-Traveller) Blue Room 
site.  It's intended for GURPS, but game mechanics are few and far 
between:

        http://www.cybercity.com/blueroom/2space.htm

He is basically trying to describe how Merchant Adventurers (read: PCs) 
can survive economically in an SF setting, competing with huge 
megacorporations.  There are certain fundamental assumptions he makes 
about the universe: no (commonly-used civilian) FTL radio; many settled 
worlds; PC's ships are tramp freighters; the galaxy has shipping needs 
on average comparable to humans.  His numbers are based on a typical 
voyage between ports of 8-12 days...

Sound familiar?

It's incomplete, but it's worth a look...
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom
tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++
Various Traveller IS Forms: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 10:26:54 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: IG Website gone?

Smart, David wrote:
> 
> Anybody know if IG has pulled their website yet? I tried to access it
> just 5 minutes ago and received:
> 
> "Fatal Error 500
> 
> Can't Access Document: http://www.imperiumgames.com/links.html.
> 
> Reason: System call `connect' failed: Host is unreachable. "

I was just hit the site successfully, so they are still around (at least, as
much as the web site has been around lately...)

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 10:28:19 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: CT lbbs

Andrew Gingery wrote:
> 
> Hi. I've just joined this list and just got back to traveller after a long time
> away. I seem to have just read a post implying that someone might know where I
> could still buy remainders of old CT books? From MM?
> 
> Is this true? Anybody know?
> 

He occaisionally offers things, I don't know if he still is.  I do know that
there are auctions on the 'net that offer most of the material published - I've
had pretty good luck collecting things this way.

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 10:33:33 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: World Builders Handbook

Greg Willis wrote:
> 
> Can anybody tell me where I could get the World Builders
> Handbook?  I can't seem to find it anywhere.
> 
> I have seen it referenced here several times over the last
> year or so, and I finally decided to go get it (yeah, I
> know, a day late and a dollar short - probably).  :)
> Naturally, the guy at the local hobby store didn't know what
> I was talking about.  I have also looked on the net for any
> information on it, but still can't seem to find anything
> relevant.  So if some kind soul on the list could help me
> out, I would greatly appreciate it.  Thanks guys.
> 
> Greg
> jwillis@netdoor.com
> ______________________________________________________________________
> 
>  If you make something idiot proof, someone will make a
> better idiot.
> ______________________________________________________________________

WBH was produced by Digest Group Publications for MT (my copy is sitting in
front of me now, as I am gen'ing up the system I will be using in my game
Friday).  It is well worth the money (as is virtually every Traveller supplement
put out by that much missed company.)

I find that it still produces results that fit very nicely into the scheme of
the game (MTU, anyway....)

douglas
- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:07:05 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ship Cards

Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca> wrote,
>Hey Guys it turns out I already have a copy of these I recieved off the
>net and squirrled away on my hard drive (I'd forgotten I had them). If
>anyone else needs a copy I can e-mail them(contact me privately) or
>maybe somebody could post them on there webpage.

I'd be interested - and I could stick 'em on my web page (which is a bit
sparse at present).

<PLUG>
If anybody wants Word versions of blank ship cards (or any of the PE
forms), you can download them from my web site!
</PLUG>
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom
tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++
Various Traveller IS Forms: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 11:26:33 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: GURPS Origins

Greg Smith wrote:
> 
> >Walter Smith wrote:
> >
> >I really liked Metagaming - ObTrav: anyone use Ogres (or BOLO's, or
> >Berserkers, or other really big combat robots) IYTU?
> >
> 
> I never actually used Ogres IMTU.  As they seem to be way out of canon,
> I was anticipating using them either as a research project gone haywire
> (PCs need to destroy one) or as the weapon of choice on a newly
> contacted world...  I'd love to hear the answer to this one!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Greg Smith      \\\\!////
>                \\  _ _  //
>                 (  @ @  )
> **************o00o-(_)-o00o******************************************
> *****                                                           *****
> *****  Smith & Wesson:  The original Point and Click Interface  *****
> *****                                                           *****
> *********************************************************************

Once, when I was feeling wild and crazy, I resolved a mercenary ticket using
OGRE and GEV. 

 Basically I let the players select the units, designate which vehicles their
PCs were in, and then adjusted the die rolls based on applicable skills
(leadership, tactics, hvy weapons, etc.)  It wasn't STRIKER, but it worked.  ;)

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:48:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Something I just learned...

I was watching Connections3 on TLC last night, and one of the connections
he flashed through (actually showed a plaque on screen with the name) was
a company called Hortalez et Cie. My jaw dropped, and did a quick
'saywhat??' 

Damn, I didn't know that this was a real company! (according to the show,
it was a shell company set up in France to funnel aid and money to the
American side in the Revolution when France was still officially neutral) 
I couldn't find a reference to it in the online Encyclopedia
Britannica...I'll have to go deeper into American History books to find
it.

wow, ref'ed by you guys again!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 17:16:02 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: CT lbbs (list included)

Andrew Gingery wrote:

> Hi. I've just joined this list and just got back to traveller after a long time
> away. I seem to have just read a post implying that someone might know where I
> could still buy remainders of old CT books? From MM?
>
> Is this true? Anybody know?

This Monday from MM himself I received the following:
The Traveller Book (Hardcover CT Books 1-3).
Book 4: Mercenary
Book 5: High Guard
Alien Encyclopedia (Alien Modules 1-7 (Aslan, K'Kree, Vargr, Zhodani, Droyne,
Solomani, Hivers), Darrians, Alien Realms) in glorious hardcover with red ribbon
page-holder.
All in fantastic condition.

How can I get some goodies?  Well, in appreciation to Marc, I'll save him the
trouble and give you the list.

What follows is a list of different Traveller materials that have been available.
They are not all currently available.
(1)  Read the list.
(2)  Decide what items you are interested in.
(3)  Send Marc a polite request concerning the availability of items you desire.
(FarFutures@aol.com)
(4)  Wait patiently for Marc's response.  If your petition is deemed worthy, Marc
will reply to you on the availability of said items and quote a price on what
materials are available.
(5)  You send Marc money.
(6)  Marc sends you goodies.
(7)  You decide to faithfully support Traveller for the rest of your life, even if
prolonged by anagathics, but suspended for items released during low berth.  (Thats
a joke)

IIRC, the maps and Spinward Marches Campaign Module are out.

*******************************
(This is a copy of Marc's previous posts to TML on this issue.
It may be out of date.)

TRAVELLER
        Traveller was initially published in June, 1977 and within the first 12
months sold more than 10,000 sets.
        Classic Traveller was published between 1977 and 1988 and accounted for more
than 250,000 rules sets. During that time, the basic background for the game
was established.
        MegaTraveller shook up the universe by revealing the Rebellion and its
upheaval. The MegaTraveller rules set was published between 1988 and 1991.
        In 1991, Game Designers Workshop undertook a revision to emphasize mercenary
aspects of the universe. Traveller New Era, which appeared between 1992 and 1995.
Traveller 4 (the latest edition of the game system) appeared in 1996.

RULES SETS
        T1      Basic Traveller
        T3      Deluxe Traveller
        T5      Starter Traveller
        T6      The Traveller Book (hardcover)
        T7      The Traveller Book (softcover)
        T8      The Traveller Adventure
        T9      MegaTraveller (Boxed Set)
        T10     Traveller New Era

BOOKS
        B0      Introduction To Traveller
        B1      Characters and Combat
        B2      Starships
        B3      Worlds and Adventures
        B4      Mercenary
        B5      High Guard
        B6      Scouts
        B7      Merchant Prince
        B8      Robots
                Azhanti High Lightning Rules

SUPPLEMENTS
        S1      1001 Characters
        S2      Animal Encounters
        S3      The Spinward Marches
        S4      Citizens of the Imperium
        S5      Lightning Class Cruisers
        S6      76 Patrons
        S7      Traders & Gunboats
        S8      Library Data (A-M)
        S9      Fighting Ships
        S10     The Solomani Rim
        S11     Library Data (N-Z)
        S12     Forms & Charts
        S13     Veterans

        SS1     Merchant Prince
        SS2     Exotic Atmospheres
        SS3     Missiles in Traveller

BOARDGAMES
        G1      Mayday (Ziplock)
        G2      Snapshot
        G3      Azhanti High Lightning
        G4      Fifth Frontier War
        G5      Invasion: Earth
        G6      Striker Miniatures Rules
 ALIEN MODULES
        AM1     Aslan
        AM2     K'kree
        AM3     Vargr
        AM4     Zhodani
        AM5     Droyne
        AM6     Solomani
        AM7     Hivers
        AM8     Darrians

ADVENTURES
        A0      The Imperial Fringe
        A1      The Kinunir
        A2      Research Station Gamma
        A3      Twilight's Peak
        A4      Leviathan
        A5      Trillion Credit Squadron
        A6      Expedition to Zhodane
        A7      Broadsword
        A8      Prison Planet
        A9      Nomads of the World Ocean
        A10     Safari Ship
        A11     Murder on Arcturus Station
        A12     Secret of the Ancients
        A13     Signal GK

DOUBLE ADVENTURES
        D1      Shadows/Annic Nova
        D2      Mission on Mithril/Bright Face
        D3      Argon Gambit/Death Station
        D4      Marooned/Marooned Alone
        D5      Chamax Plague/Horde
        D6      Night/Divine Intervention

MODULES
        M1      Tarsus (boxed)
        M2      Beltstrike (boxed)
        M3      Spinward Marches Campaign
        M4      Atlas of the Imperium
        M5      Alien Realms

MEGATRAVELLER
                MegaTraveller Boxed Set
                Players Handbook
                Referees Handbook
                Imperial Encyclopedia
                Referee's Companion
                Rebellion Sourcebook
                COACC
                Fighting Ships
                Knightfall
                Hard Times
                Arrival Vengeance

SPECIAL PRODUCTS
                Striker Miniatures Rules (no box)
                Understanding Traveller
                Beowulf Traveller Poster
                Vargr Traveller Poster
                Imperium Map Poster
                History of the Imperium Handout
                Alien Hand-Out
                Spinward Marches Map
                Traveller Galaxy Sticker
                For Use With Traveller Sticker
                Starships of 1105
                Memory Alpha
 JOURNAL OF
THE TRAVELLERS' AID SOCIETY
        J01     Annic Nova
        J02     Victoria
        J03     Asteroids
        J04     Gazelle
        J05     Imperium
        J06     Imperial Interstellar Scouts
        J07     Champa Starport
        J08     Broadsword
        J09     War
        J10     Planet-Building
        J11     Striker
        J12     Merchant Prince
        J13     Hivers
        J14     Laws and Lawbreakers
        J15     Azun
        J16     Susag
        J17     Atmospheres
        J18     Travelling without Jumping
        J19     Skyport Authority
        J20     Ways of Kuzu
        J21     Vargr
        J22     Port to Port Jumping
        J23     Zhodani Philosophies
        J24     Religion of the 2000 Worlds

BEST OF THE JOURNAL
        BJ1     Best of the Journal 1
        BJ2     Best of the Journal 2
        BJ3     Best of the Journal 3
        BJ4     Best of the Journal 4

TRAVELLER NEW ERA
                Survival Margin
                Brilliant Lances
                Fire, Fusion & Steel
                Smash & Grab
                Players' Forms
                Referee's Screen
                Battle Rider
                Path of Tears
                RC Equipment Guide
                World Tamers Handbook
                Vampire Fleets
                Striker II
                Keepers of the Flame
                Star Vikings
                Aliens of the Rim: Hivers, Ithklur
                The Guilded Lilly
                Death of Wisdom (novel)
                To Dream of Chaos (novel)

ORDERING INFORMATION
Pricing reflects relative scarcity of the items. Those with higher prices are
available in smaller quantities. Order with check or money order (we cannot
take credit cards) to

FarFuture Enterprises
1418 North Clinton Blvd.
Bloomington IL 61701

Condition: All items are new (some shop worn).
Shipping: Please add $3 shipping. Include $5 shipping if you are out of the US
and Canada.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #379
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 9 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 380



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Space  Travel, RL
Re: Milieu Zero -- Economics
Really cool item I saw in the news today...
Re: Imperial Squadrons
RE: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive
Re: Something I just learned...
Re: CT lbbs
Re: [T98#353] RFC: Lasers/Fiber Optics
Re: Something I just learned...
Re: CT lbbs
Re: Something I just learned...
Re: Something I just learned...
Re: Traveller and Real World Technology
Equipment List
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #377
BPC & Ogres
Pillaging worlds
Re:  Re: Traveller and Real World Technology
Re: Building Worlds, important questions...
Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking
RE: Milieu Zero -- Economics --my two cents worth 
TL 7 Alumunium Oxide rockets
Re: Tech levels
[Fwd: FW: Purchasing your  McDonnell Douglas Aircraft]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 17:30:08 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Space  Travel, RL

Leonard Erickson writes:
>I consider it *criminal* that NASA and Congress together managed to
>*throw away* the technology that got us to the moon *and* managed to
>screw around until we lost Skylab as well.
>Of course a good chunk of this can be laid at Nixon's door. Since he
>didn't originate the program he was quick to dismantle it as soon as
>the opportunity presented itself.

   NASA didn't fair well under Carter either.  The VP usally drives the Space
Program policy.  Mondale was never a NASA supporter and had tried to kill 
the Apollo program when he was a senator.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em
"It made him sound like Anne Rice's Lestat character, who seems sexy 
and exotic in print, but in real life would come across as an especially 
swishy and self-impressed drama queen." -- Buffalo Girls
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 17:31:15 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu Zero -- Economics

Peter Newman types:
>No the local money is worth what people think it is worth.  If you 
>can't buy grav cars with local currency but can with hard currency 
>Imperial Credits you may well quit your job in the TL 6 widget 
>factory and become a maid or prostitute to the TL 12 Imperials who 
>pay you in Imperial Credits.  You can than take these Imperial 
>Credits to the "hard currency only" store the Imperials have set 
>up on your planet for the benefit of their starport workers & buy 
>the cool TL 12 goods you want.  If trade is still in its early 
>stages you may not be able to go to a store but (if the price 
>is right) you may be able to buy the clothes right off the 
>Imperial Merchants back (the way Levis used to be sold behind 
>the Iron Curtain).

This is case in Cuba now.  Doctors and teachers get paid in Cuban Pesos.  
They can buy, if they are lucky and it's in stock, flour at the offical
state stores.

Waitresses, street artists, and prostitutes get paid in US Dollars.  They can go to
'hard currency' stores and buy just about anything you can get in a Miami supermarket.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:39:28 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Really cool item I saw in the news today...

'Electronic Paper'

http://www.nytimes.com/library/arts/040898book.html
(needs free registration)

http://www.almaden.ibm.com/journal/sj/363/jacobson.html
(free)

They have developed a system of 'electronic ink' that can be bonded to
paper, and via appropriate applications of electric signals, turn bits on
and off.  They are bistable, meaning they stay whichever way you last
flipped them. You can 'print' a book on these pages, and have all the
advantages of a real book, with all the advantages of an electronic
display.

wow...I want one of these!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 01:12:09 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <PhilK@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Squadrons

On Tue, 07 Apr 1998 08:52:16 +1200, Raygun <raygun@ihug.co.nz>, wrote:
<snip>
> Cost per ton = Cr 500,000 (naval vessels)
>                Cr 250,000 (armed merchantmen)
>                Cr 200,000 (unarmed merchantmen)
> 
> Crew per ton = 0.050 (naval vessels and armed merchantmen)
>                0.025 (unarmed merchantmen)
> 
> Merchantmen carry 50% of their tonnage in cargo.

The problem with reviewing the standard designs, is that the military
ships are at best paramilitary police ships compared to what should be
built using the design systems.

To make things worse, all the "civilian" ships are actually quasi-military
in function.

Looking back at the THUDDD designs, my guesses would be nearer:

Cost per ton = Cr 1,500,000 (naval vessels)
               Cr   100,000 (unarmed merchantmen)

Crew per ton = 0.05 (naval vessels)
               0.02 - 0.01 (merchantmen)

Merchantmen carry 50% of their tonnage in cargo
(possibly 66% if >1000std and jump 1).

don't bother with armed merchants, they are a waste of time as merchants
(too expensive) and can be taken out by a single heavy fighter against the
military. In fact there only use is as independant free traders or pirates
(if such exist :-)

Phil Kitching

- -- 
- - --
  Philk@btinternet.com (don't blame BT for any of this, they only pay me:)
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo
  The true meaning of "Dark Horror" in Call of Cuthulu is not appreciated
  until you face Ewoks riding Gaint Space Hamsters.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:15:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: RE: TNE:Slugthrowers and FTL drive

On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, John Toth wrote:

> -------------------------------->
> If you want to do 3G3 right, go to hyperbooks online and download the
> spreadsheet.  It's Excel5, and does just about everything for you.
> -------------------------------->
> 
> 
> Must... Have.... Link.... LINK....

LIIIIIIINNNNK...

http://www.hyperbooks.com/


- --
"Remember, if you see a flash:  It's Duck!  And Cover!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 19:56:15 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Something I just learned...

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> I was watching Connections3 on TLC last night, and one of the connections
> he flashed through (actually showed a plaque on screen with the name) was
> a company called Hortalez et Cie. My jaw dropped, and did a quick
> 'saywhat??'

I am lost.  What is the importance if this name?

Robert the Lonely

HTTP://WWW.GEOCITIES.COM/AREA51/CORRIDOR/4467

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 19:59:04 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: CT lbbs

Douglas Glatz wrote:

> He occaisionally offers things, I don't know if he still is.  I do know that
> there are auctions on the 'net that offer most of the material published - I've
> had pretty good luck collecting things this way.
>
> douglas

When do theese auctions happen and where?


- --
Robert the Lonely

HTTP://WWW.GEOCITIES.COM/AREA51/CORRIDOR/4467

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:20:31 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [T98#353] RFC: Lasers/Fiber Optics

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, April 05, 1998 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [T98#353] RFC: Lasers/Fiber Optics

>The simplest "unanticipated" use for it will be as a "coating" on
>starship hulls to render them impervious to laser fire. :-)


Yep, That one was used in one of Niven-Pournelle's Mote novels.  
The superconductor was layered on the hull and then had one end running
into the ships water tank.  The water starts as ice, then melts and 
finally turns to steam.  However if you're hit continuously with 
high energy lasers, then it's really just a few extra seconds of life.
Once the water is converted to steam, the superconductor will begin
to dump heat into the hull underneath, and finally vaporize itself.
This would leave the unprotected hull.

Personally I believe that a black globe generator to be the better
option.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 03:04:11 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Something I just learned...

> > I was watching Connections3 on TLC last night, and one of the connections
> > he flashed through (actually showed a plaque on screen with the name) was
> > a company called Hortalez et Cie. My jaw dropped, and did a quick
> > 'saywhat??'
> 
> I am lost.  What is the importance if this name?
Hortalez et Cie!!!!! HORTALEZ ET CIE !!!!!
You dont know Hortalez et Cie??????????
This man cant be helped!

But seriously,
Hortalez et Cie is one of the biggest Companies in the Imperium, belonging to the select
class of MegaCorporations. Their business, is insurance, investment, and similar stuff!
So now you know. 
Cool that they really exist:
But, when were they founded? Was Traveller an inspiration to them, or they to Traveller?
OR IS IT JUST ANOTHER OF THESE TEMPLAR PLOTS? One doesnt know...

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 03:13:30 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: CT lbbs

Talisman wrote:
uglas
> 
> When do theese auctions happen and where?
Sometimes on this list, when somebody announces he has a bunch to sell. But also try
rec.games.marketplace (or so). I got a lot of stuff there too. (But then you deal with
REAL strangers (whereas the list is almost family!))
Another way to find oops is at http://www.titan-games.com 
(but watch out, some items are way overpriced (on the other hand, there must be people
paying THAT, so my ideas about prices might be a smidgeon off as well!))
And some peoples web pages also include sales offers.
(I believe Leroy still has stuff: http://ouray.cudenver.edu/~lwlguatn/)
	(But that was some time ago,so i dont know whats still left..)
Anyway, if you still cant find an item, (and we mean really cant find it!) ask for
photocopies on the list. This may or may not work, depending on our mood (us = TML), but
at least its not illegal 
(Marc gave his permission for OOP items that are unattainable).

And thats about all i can think of!
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 20:55:28 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Something I just learned...

> Hortalez et Cie!!!!! HORTALEZ ET CIE !!!!!
> You dont know Hortalez et Cie??????????
> This man cant be helped!
>
> But seriously,
> Hortalez et Cie is one of the biggest Companies in the Imperium, belonging to the select
> class of MegaCorporations. Their business, is insurance, investment, and similar stuff!
> So now you know.
> Cool that they really exist:
> But, when were they founded? Was Traveller an inspiration to them, or they to Traveller?
> OR IS IT JUST ANOTHER OF THESE TEMPLAR PLOTS? One doesnt know...
>
> --
>                                          Volker
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>      /----------------------------------------------------------\
>     /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
>    /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
>   /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
>  /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
> /--------------------------------------------------------------------\

Thanks, I have never realy dealt with many of the Mega Corps.

- --
Robert the Lonely

HTTP://WWW.GEOCITIES.COM/AREA51/CORRIDOR/4467

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:47:08 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Something I just learned...

> From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
>
> I am lost.  What is the importance if this name?

Hortalez et Cie is one of those pesky Megacorporations.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 22:50:47 -0400
From: Bill Rutherfotd <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

At 08:07 AM 4/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
...
>> Fantasy Trip was the precursor to Dungeons and Dragons.  I remember
>> playing it in a group, hardly seemed like modern day GURPS at all..Maybe
>> in the dice mechanics..Is that what you mean?
>
>Precursor to Dungeons and Dragons?  TFT came out in 1977 or so.  D&D came
>out 74 or 75.
> 

++Frightening to remember all of this first-hand...




Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:56:57 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Equipment List

> I note, that the list is not my desing. I only copied it from Unoffical
> Twilight:2000 homepage. 

Looks sort of like somebody typed the Cav Store catalog.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 15:24:02 +1200
From: Raygun <raygun@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #377

> The way forward (for me) is the use Greg Porter's Slag! (downloaded as
> a pdf file from hyperbooks.com) as an intermediate conversion between
> detailed ships (High Guard or FFS) and IS.  Interesting fights can be
> fought using Slag!, with large scale (or forgone conclusions) being
> resolved with the IS system.  I have not started an serious work on the
> conversion process.

I checked out Slag! and went to the designer's web site
http://members.aol.com/btrc/index.html .  He has done a conversion (rough and ready) of
Trav to Slag! already.  Definitely going to get the pdf file now.

Thanks for everybody's help
Raygun

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 21:15:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: BPC & Ogres

>system.  The BPC (bi-phase carbide) armor is something I have to model in
>Trav terms, but the use of rail-guns (mass drivers) and mini tac-nukes
>(collapsing rounds) already exist in FFS2.

  You might try treating the warheads as plasma weapons, except the
small arms, point defense, and anti-personnel mounts would still be
beam weapons.

  If the guns are firing (high?) velocity shells as the rules indicate,
a warhead with a small heavy hydrogen fusion device (superconducting
trigger, FASA grav<-handwave> trigger?) would fit well enough into the
Traveller universe. At least your planet doesn't have to hire half the
Nuclear Dampers in the sector to clean up afterwards.

  Supposedly graphite has some desirable characteristics for defeating
high energy beam attacks, so you handwave an advanced laminate or 
ceramic-metal composite with a carbon base. <flap-flap>

  This would also give an excuse for hideous armour vs energy weapons
while retaining some vulnerability to more conventional weapons such
as solid penetrators, shaped or self-forging warheads, and falling off
of cliffs.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 21:15:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Pillaging worlds

>goods and realize their value somewhere else. It will take a lot of
>spaceship tonnage to rape even a single a world of a significant part
>of its raw material wealth.

  You could do a lot of damage by going for specific materials. There
seems little question that the locals would trade fissionables for the
hard currency to buy Imperial fusion plants (and the direct electric
conversion hardware it seems to include*).

  If you really want to screw the locals in a subtle fashion, just
buy up lots of materials used in tool making, like tungsten and
industrial diamond. Simply increasing the cost substantially will
hose them in the short term, and you can always stop buying locally
once they've invested in expanding production. You probably can't do
this with gold or silver, but I'm sure that a materials engineer
could think of several other items (chromium?, anything the accessible
mantle is short of).

  Heck, you might be able to get the same effect by dumping said material
on the local market at the right times, and then withdrawing your supply
when the locals are underproducing (hey, buy up any closing mines!).

  *BTW, does anybody out there actually require an explicit thermal >
electric conversion step in their fusion plants, or assume that such
is there already (as opposed to assuming direct conversion)?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 02:13:37 EDT
From: Darth <Darth@aol.com>
Subject: Re:  Re: Traveller and Real World Technology

Bill Rutherford, In a message dated 4/8/98 9:54:23 PM, wrote:

>>> Fantasy Trip was the precursor to Dungeons and Dragons.  I remember ...

<snip>
 
>++Frightening to remember all of this first-hand...
 
Me to, Bill.  What a strange, long trip it's been.

  Darth
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 08:50:21 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Building Worlds, important questions...

>In *our* solar system. But there's nothing stopping them from being a
>lot closer. They've discovered a planet more massive than Jupiter
>orbiting another star closer than Mercury orbits the sun!

But we also don't know wether that planet is a gas giant - just that it is
a giant.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 22:53:07 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Tech conservatism/ways of thinking

>>   But weren't we discussing the effects of the knowledge that the
>capability existed?
>
>Yes.  But, the universal rules of human behavior still apply.  Out of
>sight, out of mind.

  OK, but doesn't that bring into question how something that few people
do, and the vast majority don't, can "revolutionize the way we think?"

>> While I'll concede that there _will_ be unforeseen impacts, the development
>> of a hypothetical Jump drive would not necessarily (and from the evidence
>> of previous similar advances, would not) result in a massive, widespread,
>> fundamental change in world-view.
>
>What you are saying then, that our worldview is exactly the same today as
>it was always and will never change.  That, say, a peasant living on the
>British Isles in 1200 AD had exactly the same worldview as an American
>living in 1998?

  I suggest that it has changed drastically, particularly in that we now
(in the West) expect (if not demand) change/progress. At the very least
our world-view has been remade by changes in the economic structure; I
assume that the TML has a very low population of illiterate subsistence
farmers.

>>   The vast majority of people didn't care, if they heard about it, and it
>> certainly didn't change their lives directly (long-term economic impacts
...
>"If they heard about it" is the most important part about what you're
>saying.  I don't think that I pretended to believe, at any point, that
>every single person in the world has had their world view changed by any
>advance.  This isn't a matter of haves vs. have nots, or West vs. East. 
>The discovery of the New World changed people's worldviews, there's no
>doubt about that.  Did it change every single person on the face of the
>planet's worldview?  No.  Of course not.  I never said that.  

  My suggestion is that it changed very few peoples worldviews directly.
The indirect changes it may have caused for Europes economic life were
of a greater order of effect.

  What we seem to be discussing is whether a capability (Jump Drive)
that would be available only to an extremely small portion of the
population can change the mind set of the human race in a way that
no previous (and arguably greater such change) has done. I would at
least agree that it is possible. I may be mistaken in concluding that
your point is that it _will_ do so.

>>   It's been a long time coming, and that's only for satellite launches.
>> OC, this should incrementally decrease lift costs, with hope of a break-
>> through in efficiencies by new technologies.
>
>The launch site won't just be for satellite launches.  They've already said
>that.  At first it'll just be efficient satellite launches.  Let the
>exploitation of the solar system begin.

  IIRC it's the cost of the lift vehicles that is most substantial;
a capability to do work in the outer reaches of the Earth-Luna system
will be very different and cost much more than a basic commercial
satelite bus. Given time the field should expand.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:29:00
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: RE: Milieu Zero -- Economics --my two cents worth 

>
>Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:22:45 +0100
>From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
>Subject: RE: Milieu Zero -- Economics --my two cents worth
>
>A few points I would note...
>
>>4. Find other traders and do some comparison shopping.
>This one is right out. Milieu-0 is not the normal Imperium. Church and
>State may be separate but Trade and Navy are not. The Imperial government
>is, basically, Zhanustu Inc. The Navy is there totally to support the
>trading interests. They aren't hands off like in 1100. If anyone the
>Imperial Government disaproves of tries to trade in any quantity then the
>Navy is there to stop them.
>

This is a task *way* beyond the capability of the IN. The problem is that
the initial contacts are likely to be insanely profitable - for example,
imagine a trader dropping in on Earth circa 1970, and saying "I have two
dozen cubic meters of anti-grav plates. They wont get you beyond orbit, but
they'll save you from using those Saturn 5 things. All I want is you to
build thirty TL7 12 MW  nuclear reactors in sealed containers that can be
operated in vacuum, and enough radioactives to run each of them for 2 years."

According to FFS2 prices, the trader is selling Cr10 000 or so worth of TL9
contragrav for sixty megacredits worth of fission plants, plus 90 cubic
meters of radioactives (itself worth MCr 6.75 or so). The TL7 power plants,
while primitive, will sell well to Belters and such - they put out power,
are simple to maintain and are being sold dirt cheap.

Now, is this a good deal for any of Terra's superpowers ? Hell yes. You get
to cut the cost of the space program to fractions of a percent, in exchange
for switching your nuclear reactor program for nuke attack subs to
for-export for five years or so.

Is this a good deal for our hypothetical Free Trader ? Assume they sell the
reactors to TL9 Belter colonies as emergency backups for one-third of their
book price - they get MCr 20 for their Cr10 000 worth of contragravity.
Hey, thats a third of the cost of your ship ...

Now, given this, to stop this the IN will need to leave a squadron in orbit
above the world. And whats the cost of that ?

>>There is enough greedy people in the galaxy ...
>Which underlies much of my logic. Goverments will more likely adopt schemes
>that make them richer. Politicans will more likely adopt schemes that put
>more money in their pockets. People will support things that give them more
>bread and circuses.
>Cynical, absolutely, it is looks like the Real World to me. If you don't
>want hand-lasers without powered backpacks, why would you want a universe
>where it isn't money that makes the world go 'round?
>

Precisely my point. Your cynicism is extending well beyond what the
existing economic rules (most definitly including PE and all that chunky
price data in FFS2) support.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:09:07
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: TL 7 Alumunium Oxide rockets

A while ago, a physics student friend of mine suggested Aluminium Oxide
rockets as a TL7 rocket system.

Can any rocketry types suggest what FFS2 stats they have ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 23:42:21 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Tech levels

  I happened to run across a JTAS article that I thought might help
clarify the result of the lively Terra TL debate from last summer.

JTAS 20, p20
 "It is known for instance, that the Imperium was at tech level 14
during the Solomani Rim War, and that the Solomani Confederation
was able to get some tech 14 equipment, but was equipped mostly
with tech 13(Invasion Earth)."

  This corresponds with the complete lack of TL: 15 troops in
Invasion: Earth. I:E explicitly refers to Traveller TL's (it's
one of their stats, and probably the second most important one).

  Also, just this February, the following information was posted
by He-Whom-With-It-Is-Extremely-Awkward-To-Argue-Canon.

>MILIEUX
>Date 	Name                  Max TL		
...	
> 600 3I	Civil War               14	
>1000 3I	Solomani Rim Wars	14			
>1100 3I	Late Imperium	        15			
>1120 3I	Rebellion	        15

  Presumably that really clears up the TL debate. Admittedly, it does
brings up the issue of Solomani wishful thinking, either in terms of
military capabilities/potentials or the Imperiums political will (that
is, "Munich syndrome" in expecting the 3I to accept the fait accompli
of conquest of territory rightfully belonging to the Sphere).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 16:14:20 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: [Fwd: FW: Purchasing your  McDonnell Douglas Aircraft]

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Put this in the catagory of things we should see more of.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
 Fortalice Desertum
 (Home of the ClusterNuke)
 AD. 1998


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> I thought you'd like this.  The guys at work didn't think that it was
> too funny-the republicans!
> 
> 
> 
> This was actually posted very briefly on the McDonnell Douglas 
> website by an employee there who obviously has a sense of humor. 
> The company, of course, does not - and made the web department 
> take it down immediately. (In case you don't know: McDonnell   
> Douglas is one of the world's chief suppliers of military 
> aircraft).
> 
> _________________________________________________ 
> Thank you for purchasing a McDonnell Douglas military aircraft. 
> In order to protect your new investment, please take a few 
> moments to fill out the warranty registration card below.  
> Answering the survey questions is not required, but the 
> information will help us to develop new products that best meet 
> your needs and desires.
> 
> 1. [_] Mr.  [_] Mrs.  [_] Ms.  [_] Miss  [_] Lt.  [_] Gen.  [_] 
> Comrade  [_] Classified  [_] Other   
> First Name:...............................................
> Initial: ...... 
> Last Name:  ..............................................
> Password: .............................. (max 8 char) 
> Code Name:   ............................................
> Latitude-Longitude-Altitude: ........  ...........  ..........
> 
> 2.Which model aircraft did you purchase?
> [_] F-14 Tomcat  [_] F-15 Eagle   [_] F-16 Falcon
> [_] F-117A Stealth [_] Classified
> 
> 3. Date of purchase (Year/Month/Day): 
> 19....... / .......   /.......
> 
> 4. Serial Number:  .........................................
> 
> 5. Please check where this product was purchased:
> [_] Received as gift / aid package
> [_] Catalog showroom
> [_] Independent arms broker
> [_] Mail order
> [_] Discount store
> [_] Government surplus
> [_] Classified
> 
> 6. Please check how you became aware of the McDonnell Douglas
> product you have just purchased:
> [_] Heard loud noise, looked up
> [_] Store display
> [_] Espionage
> [_] Recommended by friend / relative / ally
> [_] Political lobbying by manufacturer
> [_] Was attacked by one
> 
> 7. Please check the three (3) factors that most influenced 
> your decision to purchase this McDonnell Douglas product:    
> [_] Style / appearance 
> [_] Speed / maneuverability
> [_] Price / value
> [_] Comfort / convenience
> [_] Kickback / bribe
> [_] Recommended by salesperson
> [_] McDonnell Douglas reputation
> [_] Advanced Weapons Systems
> [_] Backroom politics
> [_] Negative experience opposing one in combat
> 
> 8. Please check the location(s) where this product will be used: 
> [_] North America
> [_] Central / South America
> [_] Aircraft carrier
> [_] Europe
> [_] Middle East
> [_] Africa
> [_] Asia / Far East
> [_] Misc. Third World countries
> [_] Classified
> 
> 9. Please check the products that you currently own or intend to 
> purchase in the near future:
> [_] Color TV
> [_] VCR
> [_] ICBM
> [_] Killer Satellite
> [_] CD Player
> [_] Air-to-Air Missiles
> [_] Space Shuttle
> [_] Home Computer
> [_] Nuclear Weapon
> 
> 10. How would you describe yourself or your organization?  
> (Check all that apply:)
> [_] Communist / Socialist
> [_] Terrorist
> [_] Crazed
> [_] Neutral
> [_] Democratic
> [_] Dictatorship
> [_] Corrupt
> [_] Primitive / Tribal
> 
> 11. How did you pay for your McDonnell Douglas product?
> [_] Deficit spending
> [_] Cash
> [_] Suitcases of cocaine
> [_] Oil revenues
> [_] Personal check
> [_] Credit card
> [_] Ransom money
> [_] Traveler's check
> 
> 12. Your occupation:
> [_] Homemaker
> [_] Sales / marketing
> [_] Revolutionary
> [_] Clerical
> [_] Mercenary
> [_] Tyrant
> [_] Middle management
> [_] Eccentric billionaire
> [_] Defense Minister / General
> [_] Retired
> [_] Student
> 
> 13. To help us understand our customers' lifestyles, please 
> indicate the interests and activities in which you and your 
> spouse enjoy participating on a regular basis:
> [_] Golf
> [_] Boating / sailing
> [_] Sabotage
> [_] Running / jogging
> [_] Propaganda / disinformation
> [_] Destabilization / overthrow
> [_] Default on loans
> [_] Gardening
> [_] Crafts
> [_] Black market / smuggling
> [_] Collectibles / collections
> [_] Watching sports on TV
> [_] Wines
> [_] Interrogation / torture
> [_] Household pets
> [_] Crushing rebellions
> [_] Espionage / reconnaissance
> [_] Fashion clothing
> [_] Border disputes
> [_] Mutually Assured Destruction
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to fill out this questionnaire. 
> Your answers will be used in market studies that will help 
> McDonnell Douglas serve you better in the future - as well   
> as allowing you to receive mailings and special offers from 
> other companies, governments, extremist groups, and mysterious 
> consortia.  Comments or suggestions about our fighter planes? 
> Please write to:
> 
>        McDONNELL DOUGLAS CORPORATION
>        Marketing Department
>        Military Aerospace Division
>        P.O. Box 800, St. Louis, MO
> 


- --------------44C966C12F564AF56B53CF77--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #380
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 9 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 381



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TL 7 Alumunium Oxide rockets
Re: Space  Travel, RL
Re: Pillaging worlds
RE: Milieu Zero -- Economics
Water as Bullets???
Re: Pillaging worlds
Re: [Fwd: FW: Purchasing your  McDonnell Douglas Aircraft]
Re: Pillaging worlds
Re: TL 7 Alumunium Oxide rockets
Re: Water as Bullets???
Re: Space  Travel, RL
Supertankers, etc.
Re: Something I just learned...
Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards
Re: Building Worlds, important questions...
Fusion (was Re: Pillaging worlds)
Re: Equipment List
Traveller Links
Re: Water as Bullets???
Re: Space  Travel, RL
Re: Supertankers, etc. (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:26:11 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: TL 7 Alumunium Oxide rockets

>A while ago, a physics student friend of mine suggested Aluminium Oxide
>rockets as a TL7 rocket system.
>
>Can any rocketry types suggest what FFS2 stats they have ?
>
>Ian Whitchurch

Solid rockets. You know, the kind that boosts the shuttle the first part,
Fire and forget about turning them off kinda thingies.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:33:48 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Space  Travel, RL

>I consider it *criminal* that NASA and Congress together managed to
>*throw away* the technology that got us to the moon *and* managed to
>screw around until we lost Skylab as well.
>Of course a good chunk of this can be laid at Nixon's door. Since he
>didn't originate the program he was quick to dismantle it as soon as
>the opportunity presented itself.

The most criminal of all such acts however was the abandonment of the NERVA
rocket engine. If they had put such devices in orbit we'd be on mars by
now. The main reason for not doing long manned flights is the pesky Isp of
chemical engines.

ObTrav: Whenever the players wonders why planet X with TL Y isn't using
item z with TL Y+1, just remind them that we're at TL 7 or 8 but are still
using TL 5-6 engines for spaceflight at GREAT cost and for no apparent
reason.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:45:17 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Pillaging worlds

>  *BTW, does anybody out there actually require an explicit thermal >
>electric conversion step in their fusion plants, or assume that such
>is there already (as opposed to assuming direct conversion)?
>
>        Steven Hudson

IMTU fusion plants generate energy by slowing a rapidly spinning plasma
torus thus doing direct conversion. As the excess heat, heatsink
requirements already make Traveller fusion plants "handwavy" in starships
talking about generators etc will only make these problems easier to spot
for my players.

"The whole point of roleplaying is suspension of disbelief"


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:18:01 -0400
From: "David" <Bushta@Prodigy.Net>
Subject: RE: Milieu Zero -- Economics

Walt Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You'd need the cooperation of the Imperium to keep this stuff secret - once
El Presidente is seen flying around in his spanking new Air/Raft, everyone
will want one -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sure, if El Presidente or anyone else in power flies an Air/Raft it would
sure make planetary news very quickly.  But the news could officially
appended or even put out in advance.  Such as "Mark 10 Industries announces
the development of a new plane, the Air Raft.  The Air Raft provides
unbelievable safety to powered flight.  So safe, that it could be the next
car you put in your garage.  For more information, call Mark 10 Industries
customer reps at 555-RAFT"  And sure, the phones would ring off the hook.
But when the average person finds out the AIR Raft costs the same as buying
five or six houses because they are not fully developed, that customer will
soon lose interest.  Indeed, even if they could afford it, the vehicle would
have to be registered much like a car is today.
  I am sure you could say that another company could sell them for less but
if the planetary tax is what has the price jacked up, the price wouldn't be
that much better.

Walt Smith also wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
and some Free Trader from the Imperium will want to
sell it to them. Unless the ruling regime is quite totalitarian, the secret
will get out very, very quickly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think the planet would be happy to trade.  The trader sells to Mark 10 in
bulk and Mark 10 distributes them to the customers.  As long as everyone is
making money, everyone is happy.  Along the way the company can try to
influence the trader to sell it tech info and advanced tools so they can
begin building the Air Raft.  But what if other companies want in?  They can
buy from Mark 10, since mark 10 holds the rights to develop the Air Raft.
If they buy direct from the Imperium, I think they would find themselves in
a world of hurt because they would be violating Mark 10's rights.

You might ask, why all tax?  To pay for the infrastructure upgrades needed.

Now that I gotten way off track, my original intent was to demonstrate that
the planetary government can and would take steps to prevent economic
disaster.  Unless the Imperium declared war on the planet, they would be
forced to deal with the government.  Just look at the relationship the U.S.A
has with Japan since world war II to see what I mean.

------------------------------

Date: Thu,  9 Apr 98 11:38:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Water as Bullets???

    In the past couple of months someone on the list mentioned an attempt to
use water as a bullet by hyper accelerating it?  Can someone detail this for
me?  The subject came up with one of my players and now we're both very
curious! ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:38:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Pillaging worlds

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Anders Backman wrote:
> >  *BTW, does anybody out there actually require an explicit thermal >
> >electric conversion step in their fusion plants, or assume that such
> >is there already (as opposed to assuming direct conversion)?
> >
> >        Steven Hudson
> 
> IMTU fusion plants generate energy by slowing a rapidly spinning plasma
> torus thus doing direct conversion. As the excess heat, heatsink
> requirements already make Traveller fusion plants "handwavy" in starships
> talking about generators etc will only make these problems easier to spot
> for my players.

Actually, standard fusion plants generate heat which they convert to
electricity using regular ol' steam turbines just like every other
kind of power plant.  There is a fusion reaction (T-T, I think) which
produces mostly electrons.  If you collected this in a big metal plate
and pulsed your reaction at 60Hz you'd have direct conversion.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 08:22:05 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: FW: Purchasing your  McDonnell Douglas Aircraft]

That is just toooo funnny!!!!


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., aka, Unit JAC of the Line, Ogre Mk V
Borg:  You will be assimilated!  Ogre:  Assimilate this!! RUMBLE RUMBLE,
BOOM BOOM!! Borg:  UH OH!!!!
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+
You might be a Traveller player if...You throw mice to your cat to see a
dewclaw in action.


_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 17:15:46 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Pillaging worlds

>Actually, standard fusion plants generate heat which they convert to
>electricity using regular ol' steam turbines just like every other
>kind of power plant.  There is a fusion reaction (T-T, I think) which
>produces mostly electrons.  If you collected this in a big metal plate
>and pulsed your reaction at 60Hz you'd have direct conversion.
>
>Bolie IV
 I know real world(tm) fusion p-plants (whatever that is) are supposed to
do it with steam generators etc but the high TL Trav dito are too hard to
handwave if they're working this way. I remember reading somewhere about a
way to get electricity out of a real world(tm) fusion plant by making the
reaction speed up a rotating plasma torus and slowing it by induction.
Whatever, my players would probably never buy p-plants with normal
generators in Trav ships due to the already stupendous heat radiation
problem just from the actual electricity waste product.

But as they say about Trav universes; your mileage may vary.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 08:19:33 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: TL 7 Alumunium Oxide rockets

Use the solid rockets from FFS2.  You know the billowing white clouds
from space shuttle launches?  Thats aluminum oxide.  

Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., aka, Unit JAC of the Line, Ogre Mk V
Borg:  You will be assimilated!  Ogre:  Assimilate this!! RUMBLE RUMBLE,
BOOM BOOM!! Borg:  UH OH!!!!
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+
You might be a Traveller player if...You throw mice to your cat to see a
dewclaw in action.

On Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:09:07 Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> writes:
>A while ago, a physics student friend of mine suggested Aluminium 
>Oxide
>rockets as a TL7 rocket system.
>
>Can any rocketry types suggest what FFS2 stats they have ?
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 08:30:00 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Water as Bullets???

This will work for very short range applications (i.e. point blank), as
you can't keep the stream laminar very long.  Water jets are commonly
used for industrial cutting applications now, even being able to cut
through metals, leather, ceramics, and just about anything else you care
to cut.  Sometimes an abrasive is added to help.

Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., aka, Unit JAC of the Line, Ogre Mk V
Borg:  You will be assimilated!  Ogre:  Assimilate this!! RUMBLE RUMBLE,
BOOM BOOM!! Borg:  UH OH!!!!
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+
You might be a Traveller player if...You throw mice to your cat to see a
dewclaw in action.

On Thu,  9 Apr 98 11:38:00 GMT  s.johnson107@genie.geis.com writes:
>    In the past couple of months someone on the list mentioned an attempt to
>use water as a bullet by hyper accelerating it?  Can someone detail this for
>me?  The subject came up with one of my players and now we're both very
>curious! ;)
>
>Stephen
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 08:26:54 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Space  Travel, RL

AAAAAANNNNNNNHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!  Wrong!  We're using TL 5-6 technology
at *less* cost because its well understood, and thus easier to apply and
build.  Being at the cutting edge may be fine for the military, but when
it comes to commercial applications, the older technology is generally
better.  Of course, IMNSHO, the government should get out, nay, BE THROWN
OUT of the commercial space business.  We can do it better, faster,
cheaper than anything NASA can do!

Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., aka, Unit JAC of the Line, Ogre Mk V
Borg:  You will be assimilated!  Ogre:  Assimilate this!! RUMBLE RUMBLE,
BOOM BOOM!! Borg:  UH OH!!!!
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+
You might be a Traveller player if...You throw mice to your cat to see a
dewclaw in action.

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:33:48 +0200 anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders
Backman) writes:

>
>ObTrav: Whenever the players wonders why planet X with TL Y isn't using
>item z with TL Y+1, just remind them that we're at TL 7 or 8 but are still
>using TL 5-6 engines for spaceflight at GREAT cost and for no apparent reason.
>
>
>/Anders Backman
>Aniware AB
>anders.backman@aniware.se
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 08:56:27 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: Supertankers, etc.

Hi!  Someone yesterday gave a great link to an article on trade in a Sci-Fi
setting, which led me to wonder:  has anyone out there actually designed one
of the mega-cargo ships that would obviously be supplying core worlds?
MegaCorps like Tukera undoubtedly have some monsters plying the jump routes.
Visions of the giant cylinders from "Dune" dance through my head . . .

I also just had a flash of inspiration:  An adventure based on "The Sea
Wolf."  Where's my pen?

(Barnacle) Brian (Scourge of the Seven Subsectors) Mays

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:20:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Something I just learned...

Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> writes:

> I was watching Connections3 on TLC last night, and one of the connections
> he flashed through (actually showed a plaque on screen with the name) was
> a company called Hortalez et Cie. My jaw dropped, and did a quick
> 'saywhat??' 
> 
> Damn, I didn't know that this was a real company! (according to the show,
> it was a shell company set up in France to funnel aid and money to the
> American side in the Revolution when France was still officially neutral) 
> I couldn't find a reference to it in the online Encyclopedia
> Britannica...I'll have to go deeper into American History books to find
> it.

Sigh.  Don't you guys get taught U.S. History in high school?
(non-U.S.  and non-French members of the TML are excused.)  I
quote (in part) from "Intelligence in the War of Independence":

===BEGIN-QUOTE
While the Committee of Secret Correspondence was meeting secretly in
Philadelphia with agents of France, Arthur Lee was meeting in London
with Pierre-Augustin Caron de Beaumarchais, the successful author of
"The Barber of Seville" (and later "The Marriage of Figaro")-who was a
French agent. Lee's inflated reports of patriot strength, which either
he fabricated for Beaumarchais' benefit or were provided by Lee's
regular correspondent, Sam Adams, won the Frenchman to the American
cause. Beaumarchais repeatedly urged the French Court to give immediate
assistance to the Americans, and on February 29, 1776 addressed a
memorial to Louis XVI quoting Lee's offer of a secret long-term treaty
of commerce in exchange for secret aid to the war of independence.
Beaumarchais explained that France could grant such aid without
compromising itself, but urged that "success of the plan depends wholly
upon rapidity as well as secrecy: Your Majesty knows better than any
one that secrecy is the soul of business, and that in politics a
project once disclosed is a project doomed to failure."

With the memorial, Beaumarchais submitted a plan proposing that he set
up a commercial trading firm as a cover for the secret French aid; he
requested and was granted one million livres to establish a firm to be
known as Roderigue Hortalez et Cie for that purpose. Beaumarchais'
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
memorial was followed by one of March 12, 1776, by the French Minister
of Foreign Affairs, the Comte de Vergennes. Royal assent was granted,
and by the time Silas Deane arrived in Paris, French aid was on its way
to the patriots. Deane expanded the Franco-American relationship,
working with Beaumarchais and other French merchants to procure ships,
commission privateers, recruit French officers, and purchase French
military supplies declared "surplus" for that purpose.
        [...]
Spain, at the urging of French Foreign Minister Vergennes, matched
France's one million livres for the operation of Hortalez et Cie. But
that was not the beginning of secret Spanish aid to the Patriots.
During the summer of 1776 Luis de Unzaga y Amezaga, the governor of New
Spain at New Orleans, had privately delivered some ten thousand pounds
of gunpowder, out of the King's stores, to Captain George Gibson and
Lieutenant Linn of the Virginia Council of Defense. The gunpowder,
moved up the Mississippi under the protection of the Spanish flag, made
it possible to thwart British plans to capture Fort Pitt.
===END-QUOTE

For further (online) information, I'd encourage you all to read about
the entire system of intelligence during our revolutionary war at URL:

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/warindep/frames.html

It's fancinating material!

        - Mark C.
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
       "Where am I... and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:46:54 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards

>I started reading Gateway last night.
>Spotted two spelling mistakes on page 3.
>Sigh.
>
>Jo

Note; I don't think I have any spoilers here.

I'm about halfway through it.  Many untidy departures from Traveller canon;
a far trader has a "screen" and the author has chosen to substitute "meson"
for "laser" when discussing its weapons, "Droyne" in place of "ancients"
and, in the book, the Droyne no longer exist.

On the other hand, the ship spends a week in jumpspace, IDs his ship as
"jump-2", there is a star-spanning Empire out there, starports are called
starports, the main character does all his ship related business in the
starport bar, the K'kree have shown up (as carnivore hating bullies, who
can't stand the smell of the breath of carnivores even), as have Aslan, in
fairly accurate depictions (for my money).  Also the ancients (once you
realize he's not talking about contemporary chirpers) are as advertised.

There are important races in the book never mentioned in Traveller, the
planet names are, I think, non-canon places, the main character has an
ancient artifact(!) that he "picked up somewhere".

One of the first technologically related points of the story is that the
main character has "bought" the appearance and memories of someone else
(who has high drug debts) and laid claim to his Far Trader.  There are
times that its clear he is accessing some sort of "memory overlay".

I give it a C+ for traveller canon.  The writing is ok, but nothing to
email home about.  The story has me guessing, and I've pretty well hooked
into it.  Altogether, not too bad.

Pete

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:06:27 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Building Worlds, important questions...

>The gas giant won't block the sun except during a small portion of the
>orbit. You might get an hour worth of eclipse out of an orbit that
>lasts a week. Sure, the gg is big, but the orbits are *really* big.

Somewhat longer than that. Eclipses of Io last a couple of hours, and it's
in a (fast) close orbit. Something in a week-long orbit would have eclipses
that last about half a day. Of course, the farther out you are the more rare
eclipses are; they'll only occur during certain "eclipses seasons" when the
GG's equatorial plane is lined up right (twice per GG year, you'd get a
period of a few months when you got an eclipse every orbit.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:25:23 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Fusion (was Re: Pillaging worlds)

Bolie IV wrote;
>On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Anders Backman wrote:
>> >  *BTW, does anybody out there actually require an explicit thermal >
>> >electric conversion step in their fusion plants, or assume that such
>> >is there already (as opposed to assuming direct conversion)?
[snip]
>Actually, standard fusion plants generate heat which they convert to
>electricity using regular ol' steam turbines just like every other
>kind of power plant.

This made me chuckle.  There are no 'standard' fusion plants.  The three
American and handful of other experimental (hot) fusion reactors spread
about do not make any electricity.  The problem of converting heat to
electricity is not the current priority (no pun intended there).

There will probably be better "heat engines" that steam turbines at some
point (maybe now?), on the other hand, steam turbines are not too bad
themselves (if you ignore volume considerations).

>There is a fusion reaction (T-T, I think) which
>produces mostly electrons.  If you collected this in a big metal plate
>and pulsed your reaction at 60Hz you'd have direct conversion.

The problem, in Magnetic Containment fusion, is that electrons, being
positively charged, cannot escape the magnetic containment bottle (or
torus, more accurately).  Neutrons do escape, and are very energetic when
they do.  Current designs (or maybe near future ones; I'm not quite sure)
have a "Lithium Blanket" which, I think, will help to collect some of the
energy from the neutrons, perhaps to breed more tritium for the reactor.
All this is now more fuzzy than I thought it would be (Hey! I'm a
bookkeeper, not a physicist!).

Perhaps this problem goes away when you use "inertial confinement" fusion,
but I think other problems pop up at that point.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 09:51:35 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Equipment List

At 10:56 PM 4/8/98 EDT, you wrote:
>> I note, that the list is not my desing. I only copied it from Unoffical
>> Twilight:2000 homepage. 
>
>Looks sort of like somebody typed the Cav Store catalog.

Hey!  The US Cavalry catalog is considered one of my Traveller Books!
Everything you need, in one convient place.  I do wish Ranger Joe's would
get on the web.. I miss that place.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:48:03 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Traveller Links

Hey all, I am trying to collect a list of Traveller sites.  I would like to
have any lists you all may have.
- ---
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:48:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Water as Bullets???

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, james a clem wrote:

> This will work for very short range applications (i.e. point blank), as
> you can't keep the stream laminar very long.  Water jets are commonly
> used for industrial cutting applications now, even being able to cut
> through metals, leather, ceramics, and just about anything else you care
> to cut.  Sometimes an abrasive is added to help.
> 

actually, there are some reknowned fountain designers that have managed to
make laminar flow last a long time...they have a fountain that does a
beautiful arc of thirty or fourty feet across a plaza, and lands in a hole
about 1/4" larger in diameter than the fountain jet. Incredible!

They are also the designers responsible for the 'leapfrog' fountain at
Disney World(Orlando), which uses the same technology, IIRC. small jets
leap from place to place in this large plaza, or straight up in the air,
at random intervals, kids love it, and having seen it on TV, I suspect
it'll turn anyone not dead into a kid again ;-) 

of course, this isn't with the velocity needed for cutting.

Of course, if you've dipped that water bullet into LN2 before firing
it...heh heh heh.

We've used liquid-air frozen crossbow bolts in various campaigns. They
find someone dead,  with a big hole in them, and maybe a little water in
the wound.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:57:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Space  Travel, RL

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, james a clem wrote:

>  Of course, IMNSHO, the government should get out, nay, BE THROWN
> OUT of the commercial space business.  We can do it better, faster,
> cheaper than anything NASA can do!
> 

Oh, yeah...sure. That's why we have five or six commercial heavy lift
launch corporations out there right now. Oh, yeah, and all those Zero-Gee
fabs up in orbit.

Why not?? The market is there, there's a huge backlog of satellite
launches scheduled.

There are what, two, US companies claiming to be in the space business,
neither of whom have launched anything, and a string of failed ventures
in the past?

So who do we have: NASA, ArianeSpace, Russia and China. Japan's working on
their first orbital booster now, but if the market's so great, and it can
be done so much cheaper and faster than NASA, why isn't it being done?

After all, it's not like the commercialization of space is so new, andf
the technology _is_ really old stuff, as you say.

Probably because it _ain't_ as cheap or easy as you might believe.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:03:21 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc. (long)

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Brian Mays wrote:

> Hi!  Someone yesterday gave a great link to an article on trade in a Sci-Fi
> setting, which led me to wonder:  has anyone out there actually designed one
> of the mega-cargo ships that would obviously be supplying core worlds?
> MegaCorps like Tukera undoubtedly have some monsters plying the jump routes.
> Visions of the giant cylinders from "Dune" dance through my head . . .

yeah, there was a megamerchant designed like that some time ago, by Alvin
Plummera.

(It's up on some web site somewhere, Goeran's I think)

Here it is:
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

The MegaMerchants of the Imperium - merchant's over 100,000 Disp tons - 
is the mainstay of Imperial Commerce.  Owned and controlled by either the 
Imperial Government or the Megacorporations, these vessels are the 
lifeblood of the Imperium, transporting billion's of tons of goods from 
one Hi-pop world to another.

Practically all MegaMerchants are only to be found in the main body of 
the Imperium: only a handful exist in the Spinward Marches, none over 
200,000 disp tons.

The importance of MegaMerchants cannot be overestimated.  When the 
Imperium speaks of 'protecting interstellar commerce', they are not 
talking of protecting 200 ton Beowolf free traders, but 5,000,000 ton Titan 
transports.  A major task of the Imperial navy is protecting these 
ships.  Even membership within the Imperium is related to the 
MegaMerchants: these ships are not permitted to visit nonImperial worlds 
(except,in special cricumstances, Imperial client states).  When 
politicans talk of the Imperium being a 'trade confederation', they mean 
a confederation tied together partly by MegaMerchants. 

There are less than 8,000 MegaMerchants within the Imperium.  Most, like 
the 'George Bolme' 200,000 ton class ships, are under the million-ton 
limit.  Of the 600 ships over the million-ton limit, over 2/3's are 
single jump, 5,000,000 disp ton Titan ships, devoted to a single large 
main like the Vilani or Core Main. Only about 200 ships are Majesta's: 
Jump4, 2G modular transports of over 2 million disp tons, these 
ships are of great importance to GSbAG (the MegaCorp who builds them), 
Tukera Lines LIC (The MegaCorp who runs them) and the Imperium.

These are the largest ships which follow the xboat routes, and thus the 
ships needed for 'long-haul, huge cargo' situations.  They have been used 
to transport mile-long buildings from Vland to Capital, segments of grav 
cities from Solomani Rim to Antares, and entire fleets of smaller ships 
from Daibei to their Vargr buyers in the Marches.

An entire strain of Tukera Line corporate culture surrounds the 
Majestas'. It was Majesta crews that started the Great Merchant Strike of 
904, (still the only Imperium-wide labour action in history) which froze 
the entire Imperial economy for two years and sent entire sectors into 
a decade-long depression. It was Majesta crews that were the first 
MegaMerchants allowed to carry a (limited) number of dependents onboard, 
for their 3-6 year runs across the Imperium.  It was Majesta ships that 
were the first MegaMerchants to get enough lifeboats for the entire crew 
(after the famous _Dragon's Trove_ disaster, which struck a mere 15
parsec's 
from Capital).

For MegaCorp personnel, Majesta crews are a breed apart. Outspoken, vocal 
and fully aware of their own importance, they take nothing from nobody, 
be they Archduke, Administrator or Admiral.  Solomani-dominated, they have
a 
vigourous rivalry with the Vilani lines that dare challange their 
dominance on the xboat routes.  (Nevermind free traders, who they view as 
figures of fun).  Of course, Majesta crews recieve special care from 
Tukera Lines, who are careful of crossing swords with them and aware of 
their irreplaceable skills and experience. 

*****-----

Majesta's carry up to sixteen 50,000 disp Sekio Modules.  The cargo 
version is nothing but a hull and a powerplant to power the control 
systems.  It's entire hull is a clam-shell cargo door.  Of course, it has 
no crew, but is controlled remotely by RCV workstations.

The passenger version is as above, but with basic life support and 49,900 
low berths installed.  As there is still no crew, 2495 x TL 13a robot 
brains are built-in (with a selection of robots) to service the medical 
needs of the low passengers.

The 560 x 95-disp ton shuttles were originally to be used as lifeboats,
but 
are more often used as cargo haulers, on-loading and off-loading items 
for the 200,000 kl internal cargo hold.  They are manned by built-in 
robot brains for crew.

*****-----

P.S. Yes, I know I should have installed some missiles on this ship, but 
the problem is, it's _civilian_!  Installing the number of missile 
turrents the ship deserves would make it very, *very* dangerous.  
Better to invoke some 'Imperial Regulation' forbidding missile 
emplacements on MegaMerchants.

*****-----*****
Brilliant Lances Statistic's

TL E Majesta MegaMerchant
Disp  2 000 000/2 800 000      Armour           20
Len         1 506.8 m          Volume   28 000 000 kl
Price   920 497.746 MCr        Target            G
Config   Open Frame USL        Tech              E
Mass  11 198 209 mt unloaded
      12 054 737 mt loaded with 16 low berth modules & internal cargo
      24 429 703 mt loaded with 16 full cargo modules & internal cargo


Power Plant     Fusion 3 510 000 MW, 1 yr duration (100 MW/Hit; 61 172 MW 
                surplus)
Jump            4 (9 800 000 kl of fuel)
G-rating        2 (1 221 485 MW/G w.cargo modules)
                  (  641 093 MW/G w/berth modules) 
G-turns         
      w/cargo   30.0 G-hours (62.1 G-hrs w/jfuel), 305 107 kl each
      w/berths  60.7 G-hours (125.8 G-hrs w/jfuel), 150 794 kl each
Maint           462 611

Computer        2 x TL E st (.5 MW ea), 2 x TL E fb (1 MW ea)
Commo           3 x Radio 1000 AU (20.0 MW ea)
               10 x Laser 3000 km (  .04 MW ea)
Avionics        TL A+
Sensors         3 x P-EMS fixed (6 hex, .2 MW ea)
                3 x A-EMS      (10 hex, 15.0 MW ea)
               20 x Ladar         (10 hes,  2.5 MW ea)
ECM/ECCM        None

Controls        Bridge x 6157, Engineer x 29 250

Offensive       100 x TL E 150 Mj Laset Turrent
                (Loc: 1-20, Arc: All, 4.2 Mw, 0 Crew* ea)
                400 x empty turrent sockets (Loc: 1-20) 

Defensive       500 x TL E Sandcasters 
                (Loc: 1-20, Arc: All, 1 MW, 1 Crew ea, 2D6x5 per hit, 40
C)

MFD's           100 x TL E Beam (-5 Dif, 2 hex, 0.9 MW, 1 Crew ea)

- -0 Dif  150 Mj Laser Turrent    2:1/10-31        4:1/10-31
                                8:1/10-31        16:1/10-31

Extended Life Support (5 600 MW)
ArtiGrav            (140 000 MW)

Complement      87 618

   Engineering  29 250  Maint    4 616  Line Admin     102  
   Electrical        5  Stewards 1 546  RCV Control     30 
   Maneuver          2  Command  5 918  Dependents  43 809
   Gunnery         600  Troops   1 000  Medical        730

[NOTE: one dependent per crew: optional.  Also, 14 RCV's are strictly 
unneccessary, and 636 stewards are 'surplus' (they may be still needed: 
after all, the Majesta has a population greater than many worlds...)

Accomo
   Sm. Strooms x 37 789 (double: .0005 MW ea)
   Lg. Strooms x  6 020 (double: .001 MW ea)

Other Facilities 
   30 x Electrical Shops (.6 MW ea), 30 x Mechanical Shops (1 MW ea)
   30 x Sickbay (.8 MW ea)

Small Craft & Launch Facilities
   Minimal hangar x 28.  Each hangar holds 20 x 95 disp 
   shuttles/lifeboats.  Ten shuttles can launch at one time.  NOTE: crew  
   has been replaced by robot brains.

   External grapples for 16 x 50 000 disp modules

Airlocks: 20 000
Cargo:   200 000 kl

Bridge, Fire Control Centre

No fuel scoops, purification

*****-----

Surface Area

1        Launch Port
2-19 Ext. Grapples for modules (If loaded, see module damage chart)

Damage Area           

[Important note: weapon volume is so small compared to ship volume as to 
be meaningless.  Weapons cannot be hit without serious targeting]

1-15   Hold
16-17      1-3  Electrical
           4-10 Hold
          11-20 Engineering
18-19      1-15 Quarters
          16-20 Engineering
20     Engineering

System Damage

Electronics
  10 x Laser, 3 x Radio              (1h)  Ant (1h) ea.
   3 x P-EMS                         (1h)      (2h)  ea.
   3 x A-EMS                         (2h)  ea.
Hold
   28 x Hangar                       107H  ea.
   30 x Mech Shop, 30 x Elect Shop     1H  ea.
   Cargo                          [2 000H ]
Quarters
   Sm. Stroom x 37 789                (2h) ea.
   Lg. Stroom x  6 020                 1H  ea.
   ArtiGrav                        5 600H   
   Life Support                   12 805H
   Emerg. Life Support             6 403H
Weapons 
   Laser Turrent x 100                 1H ea.
   Sandcaster Turrent x 500            1H ea.
Engineering
   Jump Drive                     49 000H
   HEPlaR                          3 300H
   Power Plant                    35 100H


NOTE: asterisks after some crew numbers means that these positions *can* 
be manned in lieu of the MFD stations.

*****-----*****

Battle Rider Statstic's           MM = MegaMerchant

          MM Majesta  
- -                            -5
- -                          TL E
- -                        FC: -5
L(x20)2:1                     -
A:10 P:6                  J4 G2
AV:1                          -
SC:100                      741

*****-----*****-----*****

TL E Sekio Module - Cargo
Disp         50 000            Armour           20
Len             224 m          Volume      700 000 kl
Price       157.527 MCr        Target            L
Config     Cylinder USL        Tech              E
Mass       703 800/4 912

Power Plant     Fusion 50 MW, 1 yr duration (50 MW/Hit; 0 MW surplus)
No Jump
No G-rating
No G-turns.  No CG's.
Maint           116 575 (Practically all due to cargo: done at port)

RCV controls.  No computer.
Commo           2 x Laser 3000 km (0.04 MW ea)
No Avionics 
Sensors         1 x P-EMS fixed  3000 km (0 hex (use very long range),
                .008 MW ea)
No ECM, ECCM

No Life Support.  No ArtiGrav.  No Crew.  No Airlocks.
Cargo:   698 888 kl.  Entire hull is a clam-shell cargo hatch.

*****-----

Surface Area

1-20 Hatch

Damage Area            (Power plant is so small compared to ship, it's 
                        pratically impossible to hit)
1-20 Hold

System Damage

Hold
 Cargo          [7016 H]
Engineering
 Power              1 H

*****-----*****

Battle Rider Statstic's         Didn't even bother.

*****-----*****------*****

TL E Sekio Module - Low Berth
Disp         50 000            Armour           20
Len             224 m          Volume      700 000 kl
Price     3 845.537 MCr        Target            L
Config     Cylinder USL        Tech              E
Mass      58 445 (+1 if loaded: for fuel)

Power Plant     #1 Fusion 50 MW, 1 yr duration (50 MW/Hit; 0 MW surplus)
                #2 Fusion 120 MW, 1 yr duration (120 MW/Hit; 2 MW
shortfall)
No Jump
No G-rating
No G-turns.  No CG's.
Maint           9 016

RCV controls.  No computer. Robot brain x 2495

[NOTE: Each brain is programmed with Medical (Diagnosis) - 10 (14)
                                     Medical (Trauma Aid) - 6 (10) ]

Commo           2 x Laser 3000 km (0.04 MW ea)
No Avionics 
Sensors         1 x P-EMS fixed  3000 km (0 hex (use very long range),
                .008 MW ea)
No ECM, ECCM

Basic Life Support (70 MW)
No ArtiGrav.  No Crew.  
No Airlocks (connector tube, with built-in airlock is needed to board)
Low Berths x 49 900

*****-----

Surface Area

1-20 Hull

Damage Area            (Power plant is so small compared to ship, it's 
                        pratically impossible to hit)
1-20 Quarters

System Damage

Quarters
 Low Berths x 49 900     (1h) ea.
Engineering
 Power Plant #1           1H
 Power Plant #2           1H
*****-----*****

Battle Rider Statstic's         Didn't even bother.

- -------------------------------------------------------------

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #381
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 9 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 382



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TL 7 Alumunium Oxide rockets
Re: Water as Bullets???
In Re: Equipment list
Hortalez (was Re: Something I just learned...)
Re: Space  Travel, RL
Re: Supertankers, etc.
Re:  fusion plants
Re: Supertankers, etc.
Re: Space  Travel, RL
Re: Space  Travel, RL
RE: Water as Bullets???
Re: TL 7 Alumunium Oxide rockets
Re: Water as Bullets???
New Robot Spreadsheet Available
RE: Space  Travel, RL
Re: Shipcards
nuclear warhead yields
Re: Water as Bullets???
need some design criticism
Re: nuclear warhead yields
Starship Advantage for GURPS Traveller [long]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:08:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: TL 7 Alumunium Oxide rockets

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, james a clem wrote:

> Use the solid rockets from FFS2.  You know the billowing white clouds
> from space shuttle launches?  Thats aluminum oxide.  

Really?  I always thought that it was steam from all that water that they
dumped under the pad just prior to launch, in order to keep the structure
from melting under the heat from the boosters.

Interesting.  What is aluminum oxide?


Clark


- --
"Remember, if you see a flash:  It's Duck!  And Cover!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:40:18 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Water as Bullets???

>In the past couple of months someone on the list mentioned an attempt to
>use water as a bullet by hyper accelerating it?

This isn't _quite_ related, but we had some rather interesting discussions
on the Cherryhlist about the use of water as a payload in the missiles in
Cherryh's warships. All combat in her ships is in real-space and often
takes place at a significant percentage of the speed of light (50-75%). The
biggest impact between two fighting ships is the relative velocity. I was
suggesting some sort of "grape shot" so that you can get a wide spread
(since light-lag keeps you from knowing _precisely_ where they will be).
Someone else said why not use water. You can get a perfectly even spread
and it is bloody cheap.
He also said that idea has been used in another book. But I can't remember
which.,,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 15:43:20 -0400
From: "George Royal" <groyal@isoa.net>
Subject: In Re: Equipment list

This was on front cover of latest Ranger Joe's catalogue(last week).


http://www.rangerjoe.com

George

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:48:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Hortalez (was Re: Something I just learned...)

Mark Cook <markc@peak.org> quoted:

> With the memorial, Beaumarchais submitted a plan proposing that he set
> up a commercial trading firm as a cover for the secret French aid; he
> requested and was granted one million livres to establish a firm to be
> known as Roderigue Hortalez et Cie for that purpose. Beaumarchais'
> memorial was followed by one of March 12, 1776, by the French Minister
> of Foreign Affairs, the Comte de Vergennes. Royal assent was granted,

By contrast, the Traveller version of Hortalez et Cie is claimed in at
least one place to have been founded in the 220s by, as I recall, a
Lucienne Hortalez (and the family still owns a respectable chunk most
of a millenium later).  The Shiishuginsa family's Zirunkariish should
exist in the "Milieu Zero" period, but Hortalez shouldn't (unless the
historians in 1100 have got it wrong, which is possible).

Hortalez et Cie is terribly useful as an independent commercial entity,
but I can see some people having fun letting the Imperium have a bigger
secret than the TI/TJ companies involving control of Hortalez.  (That 
sort of deep, dark conspiracy stuff wouldn't fly for me, but it might
appeal to some of you....)

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:08:39 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Space  Travel, RL

>The most criminal of all such acts however was the abandonment of the NERVA
>rocket engine. If they had put such devices in orbit we'd be on mars by
>now. The main reason for not doing long manned flights is the pesky Isp of
>chemical engines.

That's somewhat of an overstatement; NERVA wasn't that much higher
ISP than modern chemical rockets. Take a look at FFS2 - the lowest-tech 
solid NTR is basically NERVA.

>ObTrav: Whenever the players wonders why planet X with TL Y isn't using
>item z with TL Y+1, just remind them that we're at TL 7 or 8 but are still
>using TL 5-6 engines for spaceflight at GREAT cost and for no apparent
>reason.

Actually, George "TML's Resident Rocket Scientist" Herbert classified 
the Space Shuttle Main Engine and various recent Russian engines as TL-8
(which I'm still not sure I agree with, but that's a "philosophy of TL"
issue.) 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:08:37 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.

>has anyone out there actually designed one
>of the mega-cargo ships that would obviously be supplying core worlds?
Hiya,
     Loren requested a proposal from me about merchant adventures in the
Spinward Marches and I've been doing the research using the MegaTraveller
design rules. The assumption is that there are massive ships that are
jump-1, maneuver 0.2 that travel the mains. Their main business is
long-haul but up to 10% of their cargo space is used for speculation. When
an where they choose to dump their speciulative stuff makes for major agony
and upset amongst the fringe tramp traders. The price came down to about
500Cr per ton of cargo per jump. Or, if you were shipping, say, oranges,
.075 Cr per orange. That justtifies a lot of long-haul trade. You could
ship oranges halfway across a subsector without impacting much on the
price. If you go up to microwave ovens you can ship them across a few
subsectors. And if you go up to dishwashers then Glisten->Regina is still
profitable.
     But on to your question. There were two main patters of ships I was
looking at. One supertanker (100,000t cargo) line was run at optimal with
all the latest and required a crew of about 50. These were strictly
business with formalised mercant marine ranks and so forth. The other line
used minimal automation and required a crew of about 1000. These were
assumed to employ an extended family structure with kids and so forth on
the ship. Although slightly less efficient than the automated ships, the
assumption was that these were more often used by the Vilani derived
megacorporations and the slightly higher running costs were offset by
reduced recruitment overheads (the younger generation being a readily
accessible pool of trained labour) and increased crew loyalty.
     Normal operations were to jump in at 100 diameters and immediately
begin conducting electronic busines. The ship would then, slowly, make its
way down to zero-G docks while the bulk of the crew shuttled down to
starport and stayed there during the time in port. Once the ship got to
dock it would shif brokered cargo in and out from company warehouses,
refuel, resupply, and start heading out. The crew would then shuttle back
as it neared the jump point and it would jump for the next destination.
     Other than the shuttle, cargo transport and anciliary craft designs
there was also company merchant escort designs to provide the firepower to
protect them where the Naval patrols were thin or for trade wars.
     I've trained my design spreadsheet to export HTML ship files as well,
now, and intend to put them up on the core web pages
(http://members.nova.org/~sol/core) at some stage. (And before you ask, the
spreadsheet only works in Lotus 1-2-3 '97 and can't be converted to
anything else.) If there is a general interest write me _privately_ and
I'll post them sooner rather than later.
     Cheers,
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:11:40 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  fusion plants

>> >  *BTW, does anybody out there actually require an explicit thermal >
>> >electric conversion step in their fusion plants
>> IMTU fusion plants generate energy by slowing a rapidly spinning plasma
>> torus thus doing direct conversion. As the excess heat, heatsink
>> requirements already make Traveller fusion plants "handwavy" in starships
>> talking about generators etc will only make these problems easier to spot
>> for my players.
>Actually, standard fusion plants generate heat which they convert to
>electricity using regular ol' steam turbines just like every other
>kind of power plant. 

Standard Traveller Fusion plants probably use magentohydrodynamics - run
the fusion plasma at high speed past an approriate arrangement of magnets and
coils to get electricty. This has the advantage (a) of no moving parts, and
(b) you can run the "cold end" (and the exhaust) at several thousand K
(as opposed to only a few hundred K for a closed-cycle steam turbine) which
reduces the heatsink area required. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:17:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
>      Normal operations were to jump in at 100 diameters and immediately
> begin conducting electronic busines. The ship would then, slowly, make its
> way down to zero-G docks while the bulk of the crew shuttled down to
> starport and stayed there during the time in port. Once the ship got to
> dock it would shif brokered cargo in and out from company warehouses,
> refuel, resupply, and start heading out. The crew would then shuttle back
> as it neared the jump point and it would jump for the next destination.

If these sorts of ships were very common, then I would expect that
someone would operate fast shuttles to start bringing cargo in from
as far out as the 100 diameter limit.  I'm not sure how much time you
could save, but if the ships could afford to wait near the most likely
entry point, they could get goods to the planet much faster than the
large cargo ship.  If the large ships were modular with large detachable
cargo pods, tugs could do the work for you.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:16:39 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Space  Travel, RL

>There are what, two, US companies claiming to be in the space business,
>neither of whom have launched anything, and a string of failed ventures
>in the past?

I would count Lockheed Martin and McDonald Douglas as US companies in the
space business; they certainly do commercial launches (with goverment-
derived hardware.) So does Orbital Sciences (Pegasus/Taurus.) 

There is a large collection of small companies, often with little funding
and exotic ideas trying to get into the fully-reusable small-launcher
market... (Kistler, Pioneer, Rotary Rocket, etc.)

>Probably because it _ain't_ as cheap or easy as you might believe.
This I do agree with - I certainly don't expect most of the small ventures
to succeed, and the "if only the goverment got out of the way we'd Rule
The Stars" myth is certainly a myth, but there are corporations slugging
towards increasing commercialization.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:40:54 -0500
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: Space  Travel, RL

>Why not?? The market is there, there's a huge backlog of satellite
>launches scheduled.

>There are what, two, US companies claiming to be in the space business,
>neither of whom have launched anything, and a string of failed ventures
>in the past?

The big thing getting in the way, is the start up capital, both money wise
and ability wise. Even a cheap, no frills rocket will cost you millions to
make and launch.  

And how many people actually know how to build a rocket? I majored in space
science in college, and so have the basic idea, but really,  you'd pretty
have to recruit someone with experience - ie, from Nasa or the ESA or the
old Soviet Space Agency. And there can't be that many of those (Actually,
there are probably a lot of ex-Soviets available). Without experience with
actual rockets, you're going to end up like that guy in England (he built
his own rocket, and it crashed rather spectacularly). Even with experience,
quite a few rockets are going to crash - even a tiny error in the guidance
or a quality problem in the engine can cause the whole thing to collapse. 

So, it ends up being the various aerospace companies that have the ability
to - but they don't seem to find it profitable enough - too much risk -
they can just keep on building planes and make good money.  Once the market
for planes dries up a bit, I think you'll see more commerical launches.
Even then, the inherent problems of rockets will probably force them to use
other ideas, like Pegasus (rocket from a high flying plane) or hopefully a
clipper.

Anyone remember that old Andy Griffith show (or maybe it was a movie),
called I think Salvage 1? He built a rocket in his junkyard, and made
millions scavenging lost satelites.

                                         Jeremy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:46:47 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Water as Bullets???

>>In the past couple of months someone on the list mentioned an attempt to
>>use water as a bullet by hyper accelerating it?
>This isn't _quite_ related, but we had some rather interesting discussions
>on the Cherryhlist about the use of water as a payload in the missiles in
>Cherryh's warships. All combat in her ships is in real-space and often
>takes place at a significant percentage of the speed of light (50-75%). The
>biggest impact between two fighting ships is the relative velocity. I was
>suggesting some sort of "grape shot" so that you can get a wide spread
>(since light-lag keeps you from knowing _precisely_ where they will be).
>Someone else said why not use water. You can get a perfectly even spread
>and it is bloody cheap.

>He also said that idea has been used in another book. But I can't remember
>which.,,
>Jo

I remember a tactic like this being used in the "Uplift" saga by David Brin:
A ship which was being chased dumped most of the water it was holding (which
the dolphins lived in, IIRC), which dispersed and froze solid, presenting
the (fast moving) enemy ship with a wide field of shrapnel.

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:51:47 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: TL 7 Alumunium Oxide rockets

The SRBs on the shuttle uses powdered aluminum for fuel, mixed with a
rubbery matrix and an oxidizer.  When you ignite it, it burns, giving off
aluminum oxide.  (Yes, aluminum burns quite well)  The water is also used
for sound suppression as well as cooling.

Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., aka, Unit JAC of the Line, Ogre Mk V
Borg:  You will be assimilated!  Ogre:  Assimilate this!! RUMBLE RUMBLE,
BOOM BOOM!! Borg:  UH OH!!!!
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+
You might be a Traveller player if...You throw mice to your cat to see a
dewclaw in action.

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Clark Crawford
<crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU> writes:
>Really?  I always thought that it was steam from all that water that 
>they
>dumped under the pad just prior to launch, in order to keep the 
>structure
>from melting under the heat from the boosters.
>
>Interesting.  What is aluminum oxide?


_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:55:35 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Water as Bullets???

I've seen these fountains in person, they are quite impressive.  I'm just
not sure you can maintain the laminar flow at the velocities needed. 
I'll have to do some calculations.

Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., aka, Unit JAC of the Line, Ogre Mk V
Borg:  You will be assimilated!  Ogre:  Assimilate this!! RUMBLE RUMBLE,
BOOM BOOM!! Borg:  UH OH!!!!
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+
You might be a Traveller player if...You throw mice to your cat to see a
dewclaw in action.

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:48:18 -0700 (MST) Bruce Johnson
<johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> writes:

>They are also the designers responsible for the 'leapfrog' fountain at
>Disney World(Orlando), which uses the same technology, IIRC. small 
>jets
>leap from place to place in this large plaza, or straight up in the 
>air,
>at random intervals, kids love it, and having seen it on TV, I suspect
>it'll turn anyone not dead into a kid again ;-) 
>
>of course, this isn't with the velocity needed for cutting.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:16:06 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: New Robot Spreadsheet Available

New! From the people who brought you the FF&S2 spreadsheet! It's cool! It's
exciting! It will fufill your every wish and desire!

Well, maybe not. (I gotta cut down on my medication...)

Now freely available on my Traveller website is a spreadsheet for the design
of robots in Traveller. The rules used for this particular worksheet
(Traveller has had several robot rules over the years) is the Classic Book
8:Robots rules. Personally, I feel they're the best.

To get it, go to: www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm
And then go to the logistics page. There are two versions: one for Quattro
Pro v8 and one for Excel v5.

As always, comments are welcome, and please point out any bugs you find.

We now return you to your normally scheduled program...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:17:09 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Space  Travel, RL

>Anyone remember that old Andy Griffith show (or maybe it was a movie),
>called I think Salvage 1? He built a rocket in his junkyard, and made
>millions scavenging lost satelites.
>
>                                         Jeremy
>

Oh, my god, I totally forgot about that show!  To my mother's chagrin, it
had my brother & I putting together "rocketships" in the back yard (using
aerospace-grade cardboard boxes and superdense washtubs, of course).
Unfortunately, we encountered hostile aliens quite frequently (when they
wouldn't stay in their own yard . . .).

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:36:34 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Shipcards

I wrote,
><PLUG>
>If anybody wants Word versions of blank ship cards (or any of the PE
>forms), you can download them from my web site!
></PLUG>

...which wasn't very useful since, I'd broken it.  It's fixed now, 
though. 8-)
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom
tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++
Various Traveller IS Forms: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:03:57 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: nuclear warhead yields

Can anyone out there give me the Crater, Induced, Destruction, Primary and
Secondary Blast radius' of nuclear warheads for yields higher than 500kt.  Or
at least point me in the right direction?   What I would like is FF&S values
for 1,10,20, 50, 100, 200, 500 megaton values are more realistic for tl10+ if
not into the gigaton yields. : )   I appreciate any help anyone can offer.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:28:55 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Water as Bullets???

At 11:48 AM 09/04/98 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>We've used liquid-air frozen crossbow bolts in various campaigns. They
>find someone dead,  with a big hole in them, and maybe a little water in
>the wound.

That reminds me of a book by Colin Kapp, in which an assassin uses a
crossbow firing frozen blood, so it looks like the victim's throat was torn
out by an ivisible spirit - great for terroizing the natives :)

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:43:10 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: need some design criticism

I designed these vessels using CT High Guard 2nd. ed. I could use any
criticisms good or bad. I could also use someone to convert them to T4 for me
please. Thanks.

Battle rider Tender	Cost: 555,564.19Mc (tender) 1514Mc (fuel tender) 33Mc
(shuttle)
class:Empress
Lead vessel:Empress Iolanthe
TL:15
Crew:5246 Cargo:3218 tons Fuel:Manuever Fuel:60,000 tons Jump Fuel:100,000
tons per Jump number
Agility:1 Troops:0  Frozen Watch:2700 Jump: 1 to 6

USP-BT-Y7616J4-099949-9  0000-0 Marines:0	L=20	Z=90	W=30
batteries:		L       Z  W				A=10	Y=45	F=15
batteries bearing:	A       Y  F

Tonnage:1 million tons Crew:527 officers 4719 ratings 
Performance: Jump 6 (maximum), 1-G, Power Plant-6, 60,000, EPs, Agility-1
Electronics: Model 9/fib computer (2 computers: main and back-up)
Hard points: 90x100 ton Bays; 500xHardpoints
Armament: 300xtriple laser turrets organized into 30 batteries
Defenses: 90x100 ton Repulsor Bays; 200xtriple sand caster turrets organized
into 20 batteries; Nuclear Damper (factor-9); Meson screen (factor-9);Black
Globe (factor-4)
Small Craft: 29x25,000 ton Battle rider bays;1x10,000 ton Fuel Tender bay;
1x95 ton shuttle bay
Fuel Treatment: On board fuel purification plant
Construction time: ?
Comments: This battle rider tender is designed for maximum flexibility using a
modular approach; the tender carriers her jump fuel in exterior demountable
fuel tanks. Each 4 tanks carried provides the fuel for a Jump 1. She can trade
Battle rider payload for Jump range. For an example, she can carry 24 fuel
tanks to take advantage of her Jump-6 capability; but this means she can only
carry 5 Battle riders. At Jump-4, she can carry a more respectable 13 Battle
riders. This design is in competition with a modular tender that mounts only
Jump-4 drives. The shorter ranged tender can carry more riders, as her engines
are smaller, but the Admiralty feels that the advantage of Jump-5 and 6
Batrons are useful too. The Admiralty will probably procure both designs, with
the Jump-4 tenders based in the fringes of the Imperium, and the Empress class
tenders based in the interior, as an emergency response force of the Strategic
Reserve. Both tender designs are intended to be used with the new Emperor
class Battle riders. The Admiralty was rumored to have been unhappy with the
long refueling times of the tender due to the small fuel tanks of the Emperor
class Battle riders, and ordered Buships to to add a 10,000 ton fuel tender
and a bay for it to be incorporated into the design. This space was supposed
to carry troops and/or fighters and their launch facilities, but buOps will
mission-task fighter and/or assault carriers (variants of the Emperors) into
the Batron organizations as needed. This tender can also be used as a fast
fleet Fuel tanker if needed.

Battle rider	Cost:64,877.052Mc (not including the 20ton boat)
Flag:64,927.052Mc
Class: Emperor
Lead Vessel:Emperor Strephon
TL:15
Crew:290 Cargo:3 tons Fuel:3750 tons Agility:6 Troops:0

USP-BR-L106FJ3-F99949-909T7-0
Batteries:		 6      4  6  4  6
Batteries bearing:	 6      4  6  4  6

Tonnage:25,000
Crew:29 officers;261 ratings
Performance:Jump-0,6-G,Power Plant-15,3750 EPs, Agility-6
Electronics:Model 9/fib Computer (2 Computers- main and backup)
Hardpoints:Spinal Mount;8x100ton bays(3 on Flagship);180xHardpoints
Armament: Type T Meson Gun;4x100 ton Particle Accelerator Bays(deleted on
Flagship);60xtriple laser turrets organized as 6 batteries;60xtriple missile
turrets organized as 6 batteries
Defenses:4x100 ton Repulsor bays(3 on flagship);60xtriple sand caster turrets
organized into 6 batteries;Nuclear damper(factor-9);Meson screen
(factor-9);Black Globe (factor-4);Armored hull (factor-15)
Small craft:1x20 ton boat bay
Fuel treatment: Fuel scoops-fully streamlined (uses tender for fuel
purification)
Construction time:?
comments: This Battle rider was designed to operate with Empress class tenders
(whose bay size was designed for this battle rider). This ship was designed to
be the smallest design that could carry: 1) the largest available Meson gun 2)
maximum defenses (screens and armor). She also has a big enough power plant to
maintain maximum agility with her weapons active, and the fastest, most
advanced computers available. A flagship variant is available that has a
second Bridge for an Admiral and his/her staff at the cost of the suppression
of all four Particle Accelerator bays, and one of the Repulsor bays. A 1-G
fighter Carrier, and a 1-G troop carrier variant are under consideration to
give a Batron more flexibility, as well as a 1-G fuel tender variant to allow
the Battle rider tender to be refueled quicker, or to operate as a Fleet
tanker. There is criticism by the Admiralty that the lack of an Admirals
barge (95 ton shuttle) hinders the operations of the flag battle rider, but
this has been deemed acceptable. As it is, the flag staff must use the
tenders shuttle, and then transfer to the flag rider, as the tender does not
have a flag bridge. Fortunately, the transfer from tender to rider can be
performed before battle. It can even be performed in Jump space; via the main
airlocks. This same argument also applies to the fact that the Flag quarters
are on the tender, and the flag bridge is on a battle rider.



Fuel Tender 	Cost:1514 Mc
TL:15
Crew: 44   Cargo:9472 tons of fuel   Fuel: uses fuel from cargo    Agility:0
Troops:0

USP-QT-K601142-000000-00000-0
Batteries:0

Tonnage:10,000
Crew: 11 officers; 33 ratings
Performance: jump-0; 1-G; Power Plant-1; 100 EPs; Agility-0
Electronics-model 4 computer
Hardpoints:0
Armament:0
Defences:0
Small Craft:0
Fuel Treatment: Fuel scoops and fully streamlined; No fuel Purification Plant
Construction time:?
Comments: An experimental fuel tender for the Empress class Battle rider
tender. This vessel ensures that even if the tender has no battle riders
embarked; she can be refueled. This vessel has staterooms for her crew, which
is unusual for a fuel tender for two reasons. The first reason is that the
tender was designed after the Empress class tender was (because of the Buships
decision to add a fuel tender), and any crew quarters for the fuel tender
would have to come from the extra quarters earmarked for the Flagstaff). The
second reason is that if this design should prove successful, she can be
adapted for other uses, and crew quarters gives her the endurance that a small
craft lacks.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:45:37 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: nuclear warhead yields

At 06:03 PM 09/04/98 EDT, Gary wrote:

>Can anyone out there give me the Crater, Induced, Destruction, Primary and
>Secondary Blast radius' of nuclear warheads for yields higher than 500kt.  Or
>at least point me in the right direction?   What I would like is FF&S values
>for 1,10,20, 50, 100, 200, 500 megaton values are more realistic for tl10+ if
>not into the gigaton yields. : )   I appreciate any help anyone can offer.

There's a book by Kosta Tispis (sp?) that details the forumlae used to
calculate these things, in excruciating detail. My ocal library used to
have it, but it seems to have gone the way of the cold war, along with lots
of other stuff about nukes.

From what I remember I'm far from certain that the figures used in FF&S 1/2
(which come from Striker, IIRC) are actually correct.

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:08:46 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Starship Advantage for GURPS Traveller [long]

[Note:  I still haven't seen Loren's playtest files, as I still haven't
received my password for Pyramid.  Any mistakes or wrongheadedness
contained herein are therefore strictly my own.]

Background:

In twenty years of Traveller campaigns, I have 
encountered basically only two types of players groups:
those that have a ship, and those that are desperately 
scamming to obtain one.

This is a significant challenge for the GURPS Traveller
referee, because even the smallest starships represent 
enormous wealth (~2000 times average starting wealth).  
Because Traveller does not expect "balance" among its 
characters, all the versions have handled this in the 
past by essentially giving starships to characters who 
met basic criteria (veteran scouts, merchant captains, 
lucky belters).  TNEs system of "Ship DMs"  was a step
toward balance, but was based on some very background-
specific assumptions about starship construction and 
availability.

What then?  In GURPS, possession of a starship is 
clearly an Advantage, but what kind and what does it 
cost?  Certainly a Multimillionaire (CI, p. 27) can 
afford to simply buy a Personal Yacht, but unless your 
campaign centers around this type of character, you need
other options.  The Points for Equipment and Temporary 
Wealth rules (CI, p. 17-18) only generate (at most) 75 
times starting wealth (5x for Temporarily Wealthy, 
15x for Points); this doesnt even make the down-payment 
on a used Free Trader.

I propose a set of advantages, the Starship Advantages,
as a variant of Patron.  Either the Patron owns the ship
and allows the characters to use it (Scout/Courier, 
Labship, Family Yacht), or the Patron puts up the funds 
to purchase the ship and allows the characters to pay 
him back (Free Trader, Far Trader, Subsidized Merchant, 
Subsidized Liner).  All of these are reduced by Duties 
or Sense of Duty as appropriate.


Assumptions:

1.  One Traveller credit (Cr) is approximately equal to 
one GURPS Space credit ($), at least for starship costs.  

This is at odds with some other estimates, but the only 
data points I had to work from (the VE2 Air/raft and 
Scout/Courier designs by David P. Summers) 

http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/Worlds/Traveller/Air.Raft.txt
http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/Worlds/Traveller/Imperial.Scout.txt

costed out 
very close to the average figures for the Traveller 
vehicles they were based on.  In fact, the variance 
among the different versions of Traveller is greater 
than the difference between the VE2 design costs and 
the averages.  If the official GT conversion turns out 
to be different, adjustments are left as an exercise for
the reader.

2.  The Patron advantage is a combination of advice, 
information, assistance, and (if the additional cost is 
paid) equipment.

This is important, because I used the following 
Accessibility Limitations in constructing these 
advantages:

Provides Information Only:  -80%
     (this is essentially the Contacts Advantage, and 
      the costs are comparable) 
Provides Equipment Only:  -30% of the with-equipment cost
Concerned Only with Equipment:  -10%
     (that is, the Scout Service will fuel and maintain 
      your ship, but they wont bail you out of jail)

3.  Traveller ship acquisition rules apply:  20% down,  
payments of 1/240 of purchase price per month (Free 
Traders) or payments of 50% of gross profits to the 
Government (Subsidized Merchants and Liners),  for a 
40-year term.  Other ship types are acquired per the 
mustering out rules in CT, MT, or T4.

This works out to a 2.3% annual percentage rate mortgage 
for Free Traders (and therefore has some significant 
implications for the stability of the Imperium, and the 
overall success rate of skipping or piracy).  It is 
relatively cheap, but not inconsistent with the starship
acquisition and financing rules in GURPS Space (p. 80-82) 
or the vehicle acquisition rules in VE2 (p. 199-200).

The prices given are the values I used in my 
calculations.  They are a guideline, not a 
hard-and-fast rule.  The capabilities of the ship in 
question are more important than the strict monetary 
value.

4.  I am still using my house rules for careers in GURPS
Traveller,  here mostly for Prerequisites.  A "term" is 
a four-year stint in a given career field.  For 
unadulterated GURPS, ensure that the character meets the
skill requirements on the appropriate Job Table (e.g., 
GURPS Space, p. 39),  and invests at least 8 points in 
job-related skills (GMs call) per term required (i.e., 
3 terms = 24 points).


Starship Advantages:

Personal Yacht (MCr 52.5), 5 points.
Prerequisite:  Multimillionaire.
You own your own starship (usually 200 dtons with all 
the frills).  Have fun.

Family Yacht (MCr 52.5), 10 points.
Prerequisite:  Filthy Rich.
You have the access codes to a starship (usually 200 
dtons with all the frills) belonging to Mummy and Daddy 
- - or to your clan or family business.  The family 
retains ownership - you cannot sell or transfer the 
ship, or make major modifications without permission.  
The family may help you out of a jam if needed (Patron, 
6-).  In return, they expect you to occasionally carry 
out missions on their behalf (Duty to Family, 6-).

Scout/Courier (MCr 30.0, used), 30 points.
Prerequisite:  3+ terms in Scout Service.
Scout Service provides a 100 dton Scout/Courier for your
personal use.  The Scouts retain ownership - you cannot 
sell or transfer the ship, or make major modifications 
without permission.  Fuel is available free at any Scout
Base; free maintenance is also available at any Scout 
Base at a Class A or B starport, but the Scouts will not
assist you personally (Concerned Only with Equipment 
limitation).  You are subject to recall to active 
service (Duty to Scout Service, 6-) with the ship.

Labship (MCr 112.5), 50 points.
Prerequisites:  Ph.D. or MD; 3+ terms as a Scholar.
Your parent Institute, University, Government Agency, or
Corporation provides a 400 dton Laboratory Ship for you 
to use in your continuing research.  The organization 
retains ownership - you cannot sell or transfer the ship
 or make major modifications without permission.  You 
must produce results on a fairly regular basis (Publish 
or Perish:  Duty to Patron, 12-), but your organization 
may be able to provide other information or assistance 
if requested (12-).

Free Trader (MCr 37.5), 30 points plus 1000 Shares.
Far Trader (MCr 56.25), 30 points plus 1500 Shares.
Prerequisites:  Merchant Captain (Rank 5).
You have financed a 200 dton Free Trader through a 
40-year bank or loan company mortgage.  In order to make
your down-payment, you may also have been forced to sell
Shares of ownership to Investors (see below).  You must 
make payments of 1/240th of the purchase price of your 
ship every month; payments include insurance for the 
banks investment, but not for yours.  The bank will not
assist you in any other way (Provides Equipment Only 
limitation).

Over time, your ownership in the ship increases as the 
debt owed the bank decreases:

Years      Debt Owed     Ownership
  0           80%           20%
 10           66%           34%
 20           50%           50%
 30           25%           75%
 40            0%          100%

If you sell your ship, you must repay the bank the debt 
owed, as a fraction of the original purchase price of 
the ship.  Any remaining moneys must be divided between 
you and your Investors (if any).

Subsidized Merchant (MCr 75.0), 70 points plus 2000 Shares.
Subsidized Liner (MCr 225.0), 70 points plus 6000 Shares.
Prerequisites:  Merchant Captain (Rank 5).
You have financed a 400 dton Merchant ship or a 600 dton
Liner through a subsidy from the Government.  The 
Government retains 50% ownership, but waives any bank 
payments.  In order to make your down-payment, you may 
also have been forced to sell Shares of ownership to 
Investors (see below).  You must generally follow a 
designated route among 2-12 worlds (Duty to Government, 
15-), including some that would otherwise be ignored by 
merchant traffic.  You must make payments of 50% of your
gross profits (after expenses, but before any dividends 
or other payments) to the Government every month.  In 
the event of war, you may be activated to serve as a 
Fleet auxiliary.  At the end of 40 years, full title 
reverts to you (and your Investors), but you are still 
liable for activation in wartime.  The Government will 
not assist you in any other way (Provides Equipment Only
limitation).


Shares Advantage:

Shares (Cr 7,500 per Share), variable.
Prerequisites:  none.
When individuals do not have the wealth to start a new 
business, they pool their resources into a partnership 
or corporation  to make the necessary purchases, 
dividing ownership of the property according to the 
fraction of total resources each provides.  These pieces
of ownership are called Shares.  Each share is initially
worth 1/2 the starting wealth for the campaign (in GURPS
Traveller, this is Cr 7,500 per Share); divide the 
purchase price by this amount to determine the number of
Shares required.  

You can purchase Shares during character generation with
character points.  The number of Shares per point 
depends on your characters wealth level.  The GM may 
impose a maximum of 30 points in Shares, if desired:

                Shares/point
Struggling:         1/2 (2 points per Share)
Average:              1 
Comfortable:          2 
Wealthy:              5 
Very Wealthy:        20 
Filthy Rich:        100 
Multimillionaire:  1000 

Once the player-characters have bought all the Shares 
they desire (or can afford), the remaining shares are 
assumed to be bought by NPC Investors, usually venture 
capitalists looking for a solid return on their money. 
The GM may rule that some purchases are too risky or too
unlikely to turn an adequate profit, and so no Investors
are available.   You must divide all net profits (after 
all expenses, Government subsidies, and reasonable 
savings for future needs and reinvestment are 
subtracted) with your fellow player-characters and your 
Investors, according to the percentage of Shares they 
hold.  Investors (as such) are normally anonymous, 
generic, and a zero-point Advantage, although Investors 
that are also Patrons or Allies (or Enemies!) carry the 
usual point values.

Control of the property is also divided among the 
player-characters and Investors according to the 
percentage of Shares they hold.  If the player-
characters hold more than 50% of the Shares, you can 
usually make decisions on your own (assuming you can 
agree among yourselves).  If not, or if the interests 
of minority Investors are at stake, use the Probability of 
Success Table (p. B45) - the target number to convince 
them is the skill level whose percent chance of success 
the Investors percentage of Shares equals or exceeds.  
For example, if Investors hold 750 out of 1000 Shares 
in a ship (75%), they can be convinced of the players 
plans on a 12- (74.1%).  Normal reaction bonuses apply.  
Disagreements among player-characters that are referred 
to the Investors are resolved as Contests of Skill.

Most Investors do not want to be bothered with day-to-
day operations (thats why they invested their money in 
you!), but must be consulted about any decision 
involving the value of their investment - including 
attempts to sell or upgrade the property or to buy 
shares from them.  They expect that you will act to 
maximize the profit and value of your investment and 
theirs, and to minimize risk (Fiscal Responsibility, 
as Sense of Duty:  Investors).

As the value of the investment increases (say, as a 
corresponding bank mortgage is paid off) or decreases, 
the number of Shares remains the same, while the cash 
value of each Share increases or decreases accordingly.  
Later investors must purchase new Shares from existing 
share-holders, at their current value.

[For an outstanding guide to corporations and corporate 
finance, including all the wicked role-playing 
possibilities inherent in the business world, I highly 
recommend FASAs Corporate Shadowfiles sourcebook, by 
Nigel D. Findley (ISBN 1-55560-211-8).  Although designed 
for Shadowrun, it is an excellent sole-source reference 
for any campaign.] 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #382
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 10 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 383



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: nuclear warhead yields
Re: Supertankers, etc.
Re: [Fwd: FW: Purchasing your  McDonnell Douglas Aircraft]
Re: Water as Bullets???
Re: nuclear warhead yields
Re: nuclear warhead yields
Re: Starship Advantage for GURPS Traveller [long]
Re: nuclear warhead yields
Re: nuclear warhead yields
H et C
Re: Supertankers, etc.
Re: Supertankers, etc.
Re: Fusion (was Re: Pillaging worlds)
Re: Starship Advantage for GURPS Traveller [long]
RE: Milieu Zero -- Economics --my two cents worth
TNE Hivers
Re: nuclear warhead yields
Re: nuclear warhead yields

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:41:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: nuclear warhead yields

Gary <TravelrTNE@aol.com> writes:

> Can anyone out there give me the Crater, Induced, Destruction, Primary and
> Secondary Blast radius' of nuclear warheads for yields higher than 500kt.  Or
> at least point me in the right direction?   What I would like is FF&S values
> for 1,10,20, 50, 100, 200, 500 megaton values are more realistic for tl10+ if
> not into the gigaton yields. : )   I appreciate any help anyone can offer.

Gary, here's a quick table I did for someone recently on
rec.games.frp.cyber.  It lists damage zones, their radii,
and their effects for a range of kilo/mega-tonnage.

  Zone OverPressure Description of Damage
  ---- ------------ ---------------------
    1     1 psi     Window glass shatters
                    Light injuries from fragments occur.
    2     3 psi     Residential structures collapse.
                    Serious injuries are common, fatalities may occur.
    3     5 psi     Most buildings collapse.
                    Injuries are universal, fatalities are widespread.
    4     10 psi    Reinforced concrete buildings are severely damaged
                    or demolished.  Most people are killed.
    5     20 psi    Heavily built concrete buildings are severely damaged
                    or demolished.  Fatalities approach 100%.
                        -----------------------------
      Radius (km.) of Damage (Zones) vs. Detonation Yield (K/M tons)
  
 Zone  1 Kt    5 Kt   10 Kt   20 Kt   50 Kt  100 Kt    1 Mt    5 Mt   10 Mt
 ----  ----    ----    ----   -----   -----  ------   -----   -----   -----
  1    0.28    0.48    0.60    0.75    1.02    1.28    2.74    4.65    5.85
  2    0.45    0.77    0.96    1.21    1.64    2.06    4.40    7.48    9.40
  3    0.71    1.21    1.52    1.91    2.58    3.25    6.94   11.80   14.83
  4    1.00    1.70    2.14    2.69    3.64    4.57    9.77   16.62   20.89
  5    2.20    3.74    4.70    5.91    8.00   10.06   21.50   36.57   45.96

For further information, I *strongly* recommend that you visit the
"High Energy Weapons Archive" at "http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/".
You should find most of the data you need at that location.
  
        - Mark C.
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
       "Where am I... and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:07:31 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.

Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:17:54 -0500 (CDT), Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
> On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
> >      Normal operations were to jump in at 100 diameters and immediately
> > begin conducting electronic busines. The ship would then, slowly, make its
> > way down to zero-G docks while the bulk of the crew shuttled down to
> > starport and stayed there during the time in port. Once the ship got to
> > dock it would shif brokered cargo in and out from company warehouses,
> > refuel, resupply, and start heading out. The crew would then shuttle back
> > as it neared the jump point and it would jump for the next destination.

> If these sorts of ships were very common, then I would expect that
> someone would operate fast shuttles to start bringing cargo in from
> as far out as the 100 diameter limit.  I'm not sure how much time you
> could save, but if the ships could afford to wait near the most likely
> entry point, they could get goods to the planet much faster than the
> large cargo ship.  If the large ships were modular with large detachable
> cargo pods, tugs could do the work for you.

Well, I don't think you would use shuttles.  The point of
these ships is to ship things that don't have to get there
very fast in a cheaper manner.  ("When it positively, absolutely,
has to get there sooner or later")  [I'm not sure you would
go with 0.2G, maybe only 0.05 G, though you might have
some that can do two J-1's (or maybe 4 J-0.5's :-)]
Transfering the cargo with a fast (and expensive) shuttle
defeats the purpose of keeping cost down.  (Jo's shuttle
it good because it meanst that you can arrange purchase/
sale and give the crew vacations while the ship is in
motion).  If you wanted to speed things up, I don't think
you would use a shuttle, you would just have a mass driver
and fling the cargo to whatever you have to catch them.
Then you just use another one to fling cargo back out
and you never leave 100 diam.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 18:00:20 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: FW: Purchasing your  McDonnell Douglas Aircraft]

At 04:14 pm 4/8/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> This was actually posted very briefly on the McDonnell Douglas 
>> website by an employee there who obviously has a sense of humor. 
>> The company, of course, does not - and made the web department 
>> take it down immediately. (In case you don't know: McDonnell   
>> Douglas is one of the world's chief suppliers of military 
>> aircraft).

	They obviously didn't take it down because they don't have a sense
of humor, they were just afraid of a product infringment lawsuit:

>> [_] F-14 Tomcat  [_] F-15 Eagle   [_] F-16 Falcon

	LockMart makes the Falcon!
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 18:06:30 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Water as Bullets???

At 08:40 pm 4/9/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>In the past couple of months someone on the list mentioned an attempt to
>>use water as a bullet by hyper accelerating it?
>This isn't _quite_ related, but we had some rather interesting discussions
>on the Cherryhlist about the use of water as a payload in the missiles in
>Cherryh's warships. All combat in her ships is in real-space and often
>takes place at a significant percentage of the speed of light (50-75%). The
>biggest impact between two fighting ships is the relative velocity. I was
>suggesting some sort of "grape shot" so that you can get a wide spread
>(since light-lag keeps you from knowing _precisely_ where they will be).
>Someone else said why not use water. You can get a perfectly even spread
>and it is bloody cheap.
>He also said that idea has been used in another book. But I can't remember

	One of Brin's Earthclan books. The bad guys are chasing the good
guys, who duck around a gas giant. The bad guys figure they'll cut
them off, so come around from the other side. The good guys, having
already figured *that*, dump their load of water and jink. Bad guys
encounter cloud of frozen H20 at relativistic speeds ...

	Of course, I've completely butchered what happened, pulling it from
memory, but that's good enough ...

	
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 18:11:43 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: nuclear warhead yields

At 10:45 am 4/10/98 +1200, you wrote:
>At 06:03 PM 09/04/98 EDT, Gary wrote:
>
>>Can anyone out there give me the Crater, Induced, Destruction, Primary and
>>Secondary Blast radius' of nuclear warheads for yields higher than 500kt.  Or

>There's a book by Kosta Tispis (sp?) that details the forumlae used to

	A quick search www.amazon.com on the author ("Tsipis" not Tispis)
reveals 14 titles--any idea which is correct?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 18:39:04 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: nuclear warhead yields

At 04:41 pm 4/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
>For further information, I *strongly* recommend that you visit the
>"High Energy Weapons Archive" at "http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/".

	Fascinating site, but now I'm quite curious. I was browsing around
the list of US weapons, and the entry for the W88 (warhead for the
Trident submarine launched ballistic missile) say production was "...
prematurely terminated by FBI raid on Rocky Flats" WHAT?!?!?! What
was the Department of Energy doing that caused an FBI RAID ON A
NUCLEAR WEAPONS FACILITY????
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:45:09 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship Advantage for GURPS Traveller [long]

Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:08:46 -0600, Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
> What then?  In GURPS, possession of a starship is 
> clearly an Advantage

Well, that is what I did in my GURPS Traveller article.  It seems
to work out well.  You generally need a reason why the PC won't
immediately sell the ship for huge amounts of money (or at least
a meta game agreement that he will not).  I costed it based
not on the cost of the ship, but my "GMly" judgement about
the utility for transportation or income.

[Much analysis deleted....]

What I had was....
> Free Trader - 20 points
> 
> Merchants or ex-merchants may "own" a 200 ton type A Free Trader 
> (or at least a piece of one). The PC is responsible for expenses and
> monthly payments (150,000 Cr for 40 years). Player is responsible 
> for figuring out how his character was able to come up with the
> down payment and convince the bank he was a suitable risk (however,
> any reasonable story will be accepted). For an extra 5 points,
> you can add standard weaponry (Beam Lasers, Pulse Lasers, Missiles,
> Sand Casters) to the allocated hard points. 
> 
> Scout - 30 points
> 
> A scout or ex-scout may have a 100 Ton Type S Scout/Courier that the
> scout service has loaned to you (dependable PC's only, GM
> judgment, former rank and status help). It may not be sold or
> mortgaged. The ship may be used for limited commerce but the scout
> service gets a 50% cut on all (net) profits and any information from
> any explorations. The ship (and you along with it) can be recalled to
> active service at any time. Scout bases will provide free fuel and
> maintenance (class B or better), the character carries other expenses.
> Character has a - 5 point Duty to the scout service (counts against
> limit). For an extra 7.5 points, you can add standard weaponry (Beam
> Lasers, Pulse Lasers, Missiles, Sand Casters) to the allocated hard points.

This is similar to what you had (I don't know if that was by
design or chance).  To give some playtest perspective...

A couple of players took the Scout and found it generally worthwhile.
Both ended up arming them.  We never tried to see if they could 
make money with a scout because the cargo hold was so small that
it didn't seem worth worrying about.  Nobody has taken the
Free Trader.

Another player wanted an Aslan Seeker (which is Jump-2 and, IIRC,
has Free Trader type cargo capacity).  I think I charged him 60 
points based on the potential income and it was worth every
penny.  He made a killing with a speculative cargo and ended
up with millions.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:52:50 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: nuclear warhead yields

At 06:11 PM 09/04/98 -0600, Dave Golden wrote:
>At 10:45 am 4/10/98 +1200, you wrote:

>>There's a book by Kosta Tispis (sp?) that details the forumlae used
>to
>
>	A quick search www.amazon.com on the author ("Tsipis" not Tispis)
>reveals 14 titles--any idea which is correct?

I think it's _Arsenal, understanding weapons in the nuclear age_ which is
also listed as _Arsenal : Understanding Weapons in the Nuclear Age_ for
some reason. Both versions are listed as OOP, though.

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:16:37 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: nuclear warhead yields

At 12:52 pm 4/10/98 +1200, you wrote:
>At 06:11 PM 09/04/98 -0600, Dave Golden wrote:
>>At 10:45 am 4/10/98 +1200, you wrote:
>
>>>There's a book by Kosta Tispis (sp?) that details the forumlae
used
>>to
>>
>>	A quick search www.amazon.com on the author ("Tsipis" not Tispis)
>>reveals 14 titles--any idea which is correct?
>
>I think it's _Arsenal, understanding weapons in the nuclear age_ which is
>also listed as _Arsenal : Understanding Weapons in the Nuclear Age_ for
>some reason. Both versions are listed as OOP, though.

	Amazon will find OOP books as well. But that's okay. The High Energy
Weapons site has got some useful stuff. For my purposes, anyway. I've
currently got Teleport running in the background, slurping the entire
thing down.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:55:44 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: H et C

Bruce Johnson saith:

>I was watching Connections3 on TLC last night, and one of the connections
>he flashed through (actually showed a plaque on screen with the name) was
>a company called Hortalez et Cie. My jaw dropped, and did a quick
>'saywhat??' 

Gahd! Someone finally noticed? Can the discovery of Twylo be far behind? (the
world with perfect 20/20/20/20 vision?)

>Damn, I didn't know that this was a real company! (according to the show,
>it was a shell company set up in France to funnel aid and money to the
>American side in the Revolution when France was still officially neutral) 
>I couldn't find a reference to it in the online Encyclopedia
>Britannica...I'll have to go deeper into American History books to find
>it.

Try any decent biography of Benjamin Franklin -- he was instrumental in
setting it up.

Who said RPGs weren't educational?

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:39:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, David P. Summers wrote:
> > If these sorts of ships were very common, then I would expect that
> > someone would operate fast shuttles to start bringing cargo in from
> > as far out as the 100 diameter limit.  I'm not sure how much time you
> > could save, but if the ships could afford to wait near the most likely
> > entry point, they could get goods to the planet much faster than the
> > large cargo ship.  If the large ships were modular with large detachable
> > cargo pods, tugs could do the work for you.
> 
> Well, I don't think you would use shuttles.  The point of
> these ships is to ship things that don't have to get there
> very fast in a cheaper manner.  ("When it positively, absolutely,
> has to get there sooner or later")  [I'm not sure you would
> go with 0.2G, maybe only 0.05 G, though you might have
> some that can do two J-1's (or maybe 4 J-0.5's :-)]
> Transfering the cargo with a fast (and expensive) shuttle
> defeats the purpose of keeping cost down.  (Jo's shuttle
> it good because it meanst that you can arrange purchase/
> sale and give the crew vacations while the ship is in
> motion).  If you wanted to speed things up, I don't think
> you would use a shuttle, you would just have a mass driver
> and fling the cargo to whatever you have to catch them.
> Then you just use another one to fling cargo back out
> and you never leave 100 diam.

With shuttles like this, the large cargo ships could transport stuff
as fast as anything could be transported (1 week per jump) over short
distances.  This would work well in a cluster of J-1 or J-2 stars.
Not worthwhile for longer trips, of course.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:09:54 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
To: Traveller <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 09, 1998 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.


>On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, David P. Summers wrote:
>> > If these sorts of ships were very common, then I would expect that
>> > someone would operate fast shuttles to start bringing cargo in from
>> > as far out as the 100 diameter limit.  I'm not sure how much time you
>> > could save, but if the ships could afford to wait near the most likely
>> > entry point, they could get goods to the planet much faster than the
>> > large cargo ship.  If the large ships were modular with large
detachable
>> > cargo pods, tugs could do the work for you.

<Snipped>
>With shuttles like this, the large cargo ships could transport stuff
>as fast as anything could be transported (1 week per jump) over short
>distances.  This would work well in a cluster of J-1 or J-2 stars.
>Not worthwhile for longer trips, of course.
>
>Bolie IV

After reading the start of this thread I hit Andrew's FF&S v2 sheet and came
up with the following high speed tug. The idea is that it attaches to a 100
sdt container dropped by a large freighter and moves it in system. It is
designed to 3 gee (max for tech12) but unloaded if can really pour on the
coals! So the thought occurred to me that it could also be used as a high
speed sds given weapons pods up to 100 sdt. Not a bad investment for a
system government at a purchase price of $63,953,873, so I would also tend
to consider it subsidized.

I also drew the deck plans for it incorperating a standard docking ring set
up so it can be carried about by the modular freighter I 've been working
on. Without a container the tug weighs in at a small 40 sdt so it could be
carried by a number of designs.

It is NOT streamlined and is never intended to be used in atmosphere. I
picture any number of these running about in the orbit to jump limit range.
I think it would also see use in running asteroids to orbit, albeit with a
change of grapple design. The use of Fusion and thrusters makes it's range
and limit very high, although I've reduced it to about 2 monthes Fusion fuel
and 4 weeks supplies a bit of cramping (even more than the design would
indecate) could extend this and external tanks could be added with little
effect on it's performance.

Let me know what you think. I like it enough to see it become a regular
encounter in the Inner Systems of my campaign.

States for some of the containers should follow in a couple of days.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

Working Class Fool, Tug-140 class Sub-light Tug (FF&S v2)
Designed by Merlin Enterprises, Poictesme Yards Division

Statistics
Tons: 140std ( USL Close Structure )
Volume: 1,960m3
Mass (L/C): 2,614t/958t
Dimensions: 27.2m x 20.2m x 4.7m
Size: 8
Crew: 2/2
Passengers High/Med: 0/0
Passengers Low: 0
Troops/Science: 0/0
Frozen Watch: 0(0 group)
Cargo: 0std (0/0 /Pod:1x100std)
Cost: 63.954 MCr
Maintenance Points: 160
Tech Level: 12

Electronics
Controls: Dynamic, Standard automation. 1xComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86). No bridge.
Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0.00MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0.00MW). 1xAEMS (5, 0.01MW).
Survey/Science:
ECM:
Signatures: Vis:0.5, IR:0.0 (0.0 at 20MW), Act:0.5, Neu:0, Grav:0
Weaponry

Performance
0 Jump
3.0/8.2 Maneuver (/Thruster:196MW)
0.0/0.0 Contra-grav
n/a Atmosphere
3 Power (/Fus:200MW,0.2)
0 Battery
0.4 Fuel
2/0/0/0/0 Accomodations
4 Life Sup. (/Ty:St,Nm /'St)
3 G-Comp
0 ESA
0 Sandcasters
0 Damper Turrets
0 Damper Screen
0 Meson Screen
0 Force Field
0 Gravtics
0 [20] Armor, 9 Structure

Features
2xAirlock
1xShip's locker (0.07std ea.)
1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:2)
Small Craft
Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications:
 Sensors:
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 1xMnvr. 1xEngr.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:40:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion (was Re: Pillaging worlds)

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> This made me chuckle.  There are no 'standard' fusion plants.  The three
> American and handful of other experimental (hot) fusion reactors spread
> about do not make any electricity.  The problem of converting heat to
> electricity is not the current priority (no pun intended there).

When I said "standard" I was referring to the fact that most of the
current experimental reactors are intended to generate heat which
is converted into electricity through some sort of heat engine.

> There will probably be better "heat engines" that steam turbines at some
> point (maybe now?), on the other hand, steam turbines are not too bad
> themselves (if you ignore volume considerations).

The heat engine is, of course, irrelevant to the fusion reactor.
Any power plant which generates heat which is converted to electricity
would benefit equally from improvements in this area.

> >There is a fusion reaction (T-T, I think) which
> >produces mostly electrons.  If you collected this in a big metal plate
> >and pulsed your reaction at 60Hz you'd have direct conversion.
> 
> The problem, in Magnetic Containment fusion, is that electrons, being
> positively charged, cannot escape the magnetic containment bottle (or
> torus, more accurately).  Neutrons do escape, and are very energetic when
> they do.  Current designs (or maybe near future ones; I'm not quite sure)
> have a "Lithium Blanket" which, I think, will help to collect some of the
> energy from the neutrons, perhaps to breed more tritium for the reactor.
> All this is now more fuzzy than I thought it would be (Hey! I'm a
> bookkeeper, not a physicist!).

If you are creating AC directly using the byproducts of the fusion
reaction, then you'll be pulsing it, which lends itself to inertial
confinement.  Of course, you could use a pulsed magnetic confinement
and collect the electrons as you collapse the field.  This is all
highly theoretical.

> Perhaps this problem goes away when you use "inertial confinement" fusion,
> but I think other problems pop up at that point.

I would expect that several thousand years in the future, fusion reactors
would be very simple and robust with many systems performaing multiple
functions.  They will have had a lot of time to refine every part of
the plant.

I would look more at theoretical limits of fusion reactions and heat
engines and then start bumping up the actual efficiency of reactors
we expect to build.  I wouldn't worry so much about how the reactor
works since it probably won't work like we expect given our limited
knowledge of fusion reactor technology.  (Most likely the physics
behind the reactor won't be too shocking but the actual equipment may
be quite astounding.)

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:04:22 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship Advantage for GURPS Traveller [long]

At 9:21 PM -0500 4/9/98, tbarnes@iupui.edu wrote:
>> Well, that is what I did in my GURPS Traveller article.  It seems
>> to work out well.  You generally need a reason why the PC won't
>> immediately sell the ship for huge amounts of money (or at least
>> a meta game agreement that he will not).  I costed it based
>> not on the cost of the ship, but my "GMly" judgement about
>> the utility for transportation or income.
>
>	I've seen this version of the advantage, and it seems fair. I
>converted it to a "generic" ship advantage that would apply to ownership
>of any large, handy combination business/transport/home.

That was my reading.  That you wanted to give it a systematic
pricing.  I just wanted to give a playtest perspective.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:12:52 -0800
From: jwwebb@earthlink.net (Joe Webb)
Subject: RE: Milieu Zero -- Economics --my two cents worth

>>If anyone the Imperial Government disaproves of tries to trade in any
>>quantity then >>the Navy is there to stop them.

>This is a task *way* beyond the capability of the IN....to stop this the
>IN >will need to leave a squadron in orbit above the world.

While that is true by itself remember that this is the a thousand years
before the Imperium of "today".  The IN are only the point men, the real
power is Zhanustu Inc and the influence of the Empower.

There are not that many independent traders out there in 0.  The indies out
beyond the borders of the Federation, er, Imperium are taking a big risk.
10 parsecs from the nearest service bay, you're screwed if your last light
bulb burns out, much less your j-drive.  So you have to depend on the
kindness of strangers, or at least the IN.  You make nice with the IN, they
give you some bulbs, maybe even steer you to a profitable planet.
(Coincidental that planet is targeted for economic devastation to soften up
the way for Imperial membership -- its already several steps into the
program but still profitable.)

Now, consider that the IN has found a nice virgin world all ready to trade
reactors for mass produced grav plates.  Gold mine.  The IN wants to save
it for Zhanustu Inc traders, or other corps or nobles, FOCs (Friends of
Cleon).  They warn any wandering indies off.

The indie has two choices:
  1) Go somewhere else.  They can then expect lightbulbs and spare jump
coils from the IN when beyond the border.  Back in the Imperium they don't
get audited, fined, or thrown summarily in jail for espionage or some other
trumped up charge.
2) Go down to the planet, get insane amounts of money and hope to Ram the
Navy doesn't notice.  Or that they don't notice when they try to sell their
"ill gotten" goods.

Traders, independent or corporate, operating beyond the Imperium, have to
go BACK to the Imperium to cash in on the profits they made.  If they kept
in line with the IN, all is well.  Maybe the profits aren't that big, but
they are safe.  If they were targeted by the IN for poaching, or caught
selling contraband (reactors made on a planet supposedly saved for a
F.O.C.), life gets tough.  You might even end up as an example of what
ignoring the Emporer really means.  Probably time to move to a pocket
empire, if you can escape.  Then again, if you get away with it, you are
rich rich rich.

So the IN wouldn't need to keep a flotilla around each primo planet.  Just
a portrait of Cleon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:08:00 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: TNE Hivers

  IIRC, CT Hivers required keyboard/screen combos to convert
their finger wriggling language to spoken commo.

  Did TNE have a new or improved technique for same?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 01:52:51 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: nuclear warhead yields

At 06:39 PM 4/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>At 04:41 pm 4/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>For further information, I *strongly* recommend that you visit the
>>"High Energy Weapons Archive" at "http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/".
>
>	Fascinating site, but now I'm quite curious. I was browsing around
>the list of US weapons, and the entry for the W88 (warhead for the
>Trident submarine launched ballistic missile) say production was "...
>prematurely terminated by FBI raid on Rocky Flats" WHAT?!?!?! What
>was the Department of Energy doing that caused an FBI RAID ON A
>NUCLEAR WEAPONS FACILITY????

Well, It seems the Dr. <FNORD> had been at lunch in the <FNORD> Dining
Room, when Ms. <FNORD> came in and ordered the <FNORD> Jello Mold, so then..

<1783 lines removed>

.. so it really was Col Mustard in the Library.

And THAT'S why the FBI raided Rocky Flats.

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 01:54:37 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: nuclear warhead yields

At 04:41 PM 4/9/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Gary, here's a quick table I did for someone recently on
>rec.games.frp.cyber.  It lists damage zones, their radii,
>and their effects for a range of kilo/mega-tonnage.

I think you listed the damage zones backwards.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #383
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 10 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 384



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship Advantage for GURPS Traveller
Re: H et C
Re: Pillaging worlds
re: need some design criticism
Imperium
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #383
Re: Imperium
Re: Supertankers, etc.
RE: Supertankers, etc.
Update available for Robot spreadsheet...
Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established TravellerStandards
TML PBeM
RE: Supertankers, etc.
RPGs and Education (Was: Re: H et C)
Re: H et C
Re: Supertankers, etc.
Re: [Fwd: FW: Purchasing your  McDonnell Douglas Aircraft]
Re: Supertankers, etc.
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 04:30:10 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Advantage for GURPS Traveller

>Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:45:09 -0700
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Starship Advantage for GURPS Traveller [long]
>
>Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:08:46 -0600, Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>> What then?  In GURPS, possession of a starship is 
>> clearly an Advantage
>
>Well, that is what I did in my GURPS Traveller article.  It seems
>to work out well.  You generally need a reason why the PC won't
>immediately sell the ship for huge amounts of money (or at least
>a meta game agreement that he will not).  I costed it based
>not on the cost of the ship, but my "GMly" judgement about
>the utility for transportation or income.
>
>[Much analysis deleted....]
>
>What I had was....
....
>This is similar to what you had (I don't know if that was by
>design or chance).  To give some playtest perspective...
>

One of the things I left out in the interest of space was a direct
acknowledgement of your work as the inspiration for what followed.  I
hereby gratefully state that I started from your articles, which is why I
included the pointers to your scout and airraft conversions.  I inferred
you had set a mark on the wall to have something to work with, and the
point values seemed reasonable.  I wanted to see if I could come up with a
systematic approach that would be analogous to existing advantages, one
that answered my problems with the sheer expense of the ships.

>A couple of players took the Scout and found it generally worthwhile.
>Both ended up arming them.  We never tried to see if they could 
>make money with a scout because the cargo hold was so small that
>it didn't seem worth worrying about.  Nobody has taken the
>Free Trader.
>
>Another player wanted an Aslan Seeker (which is Jump-2 and, IIRC,
>has Free Trader type cargo capacity).  I think I charged him 60 
>points based on the potential income and it was worth every
>penny.  He made a killing with a speculative cargo and ended
>up with millions.

Useful data, and food for thought.  Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:42:32 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: H et C

>Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:55:44 EDT
>From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
>Subject: H et C

>Bruce Johnson saith:
>
>>I was watching Connections3 on TLC last night, and one of the connections
>>he flashed through (actually showed a plaque on screen with the name) was
>>a company called Hortalez et Cie. My jaw dropped, and did a quick
>>'saywhat??' 

>Gahd! Someone finally noticed? Can the discovery of Twylo be far behind? (the
>world with perfect 20/20/20/20 vision?)

I'm more interested in the origins of Remulak (solomani rim 1833) :*>

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge
****************************************************************************
"Avec vous votra limpet mine?"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:48:31 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Pillaging worlds

Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com> wrote:


>Actually, standard fusion plants generate heat which they convert to
>electricity using regular ol' steam turbines just like every other
>kind of power plant.  There is a fusion reaction (T-T, I think) which
>produces mostly electrons.  If you collected this in a big metal plate
>and pulsed your reaction at 60Hz you'd have direct conversion.

I think Anders was trying to say that he doesn't use a standard fusion
plant in his game. Isn't the spinning mass/magnetics thing a bit like a
2300 MHD turbine?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:09:23 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: need some design criticism

Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com> wrote:

>I designed these vessels using CT High Guard 2nd. ed. I could use any
>criticisms good or bad. I could also use someone to convert them to T4 for me
>please. Thanks.

If you go to the Traveller pages on my website, you can get a copy of Rob
Flammang's HG to T4 conversion notes which are quite quick to use...

http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/

Basically, they're a set of tables which allow you to convert between the
two rules sets. However, you should note that HG and FFS2 do use different
assumptions/values at heart, and that you have to ignore these differences
if you use this conversion.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:59:46 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Imperium

Hi all,

Just got hold of a 1st Ed copy of Imperium thanks to Marc/FFE, and was
wondering if anyone could let me know what differences (if any) there are
between the rules in the first and second editions?

Additionally, I seem to remember discussions of strategies in the last year
or so (Leonard? Doug?) and was wondering if anyone could give any hints! ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:50:26
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #383

>From: jwwebb@earthlink.net (Joe Webb)
>Subject: RE: Milieu Zero -- Economics --my two cents worth
>
>>>If anyone the Imperial Government disaproves of tries to trade in any
>>>quantity then >>the Navy is there to stop them.
>
>>This is a task *way* beyond the capability of the IN....to stop this the
>>IN >will need to leave a squadron in orbit above the world.
>
>While that is true by itself remember that this is the a thousand years
>before the Imperium of "today".  The IN are only the point men, the real
>power is Zhanustu Inc and the influence of the Empower.
>

I suspect this is one of othose Your-Imperium-May-Vary things, but it's an
interesting issue.

>There are not that many independent traders out there in 0.  The indies out
>beyond the borders of the Federation, er, Imperium are taking a big risk.
>10 parsecs from the nearest service bay, you're screwed if your last light
>bulb burns out, much less your j-drive.  So you have to depend on the
>kindness of strangers, or at least the IN.  You make nice with the IN, they
>give you some bulbs, maybe even steer you to a profitable planet.
>(Coincidental that planet is targeted for economic devastation to soften up
>the way for Imperial membership -- its already several steps into the
>program but still profitable.)
>

Interesting thinking, but Free Traders are canon in M0 ... there is a note
about CZ making his first Trade Minister from a Free Traders.

The risk of bits burning out is a good reason to carry spare parts. Annual
maintainence is the problem issue.

>Now, consider that the IN has found a nice virgin world all ready to trade
>reactors for mass produced grav plates.  Gold mine.  The IN wants to save
>it for Zhanustu Inc traders, or other corps or nobles, FOCs (Friends of
>Cleon).  They warn any wandering indies off.

Technically, it'd be the Scout Service that did the discovery work.

The two problems with setting up "exploitation zones" are firstly, how do
you orginise it (I sort of like the idea of the Imperial government
auctioning off 'contact permits')
and secondly, how do you enforce it ? If you tell twenty traders "Dont go
to world x", the odds are one of them will ... which is embaressing if he
didnt know about the prospect earlier.

>
>The indie has two choices:
>  1) Go somewhere else.  They can then expect lightbulbs and spare jump
>coils from the IN when beyond the border.  Back in the Imperium they don't
>get audited, fined, or thrown summarily in jail for espionage or some other
>trumped up charge.
>2) Go down to the planet, get insane amounts of money and hope to Ram the
>Navy doesn't notice.  Or that they don't notice when they try to sell their
>"ill gotten" goods.

#1 isnt that good an option if all the good trade routes *within* the
Imperium are also sewn up by FOCs (which is what I'd do, if I was a FOC).

What can I say about 2 except "Smuggling is a Free Trader pursuit in which
a captain decides to transport goods illegally in order to make large
profits", and note that in Merchant Prince you did it one year in 36 if a
Free Trader, and one year in 18 if a scummy lower-class oik Free Trader. It
had a "Bonus" roll of 6+, which was pretty neat too. 

>
>Traders, independent or corporate, operating beyond the Imperium, have to
>go BACK to the Imperium to cash in on the profits they made.  If they kept
>in line with the IN, all is well.  Maybe the profits aren't that big, but
>they are safe.  If they were targeted by the IN for poaching, or caught
>selling contraband (reactors made on a planet supposedly saved for a
>F.O.C.), life gets tough.  You might even end up as an example of what
>ignoring the Emporer really means.  Probably time to move to a pocket
>empire, if you can escape.  Then again, if you get away with it, you are
>rich rich rich.

Part of the problem with this is your average Jump-2 Free Traders will need
a TL11 B-class starport about once every 2 years. Now, the question is, how
many of these are there outside Imperial space ? Assuming you are making 5
megacredits per run, then by numbers you could do ummm, about 5 months
travel each way to get to your starport. Thats ummm about 30 parsecs,
assuming a jump every 10 days.

The moving to a pocket empire point is part of the problem - the Imperium
is not the only game in town, especially after the colonisation efforts
beyond the frontier got rolling (eg all those pesky Pocket Empires).

>
>So the IN wouldn't need to keep a flotilla around each primo planet.  Just
>a portrait of Cleon.

Hmmm. As has previously been shown, to successfully be a pirate you need a
secure base, and a friendly state. It may well be unofficial policy that
Unofficial Employees of Friends of Cleon are encouraged to hang out around
"exploitation zones", and make sure that Free Traders stay away. Naturally
enough, the above-mentioned FOCs make sure theat their ships get repaired,
refueled, resupplied, maintained etc within the IMperium with no hassles.

At one fell swoop

(1) this resolves the Piracy issue,

(2) it provides an excellent set of adventure hooks

(3) it explains why the Navy isnt enforcing the EZs

and (4) it maintains official deniability for the Imperium ("See, if you
gave us a permanent extraterritorial lease on your world for a Starport, we
could station a cruiser here and chase the pirates away").

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 06:01:59 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Imperium

At 12:59 PM 4/10/98 +0100, you wrote:

>Additionally, I seem to remember discussions of strategies in the last year
>or so (Leonard? Doug?) and was wondering if anyone could give any hints! ;-)

If you are playing the Terrans, grab the choke point teritary system on the
right side of the board.  Hold it all costs.  Yo can then develop the
planet out a the end of that arm and turn it from a colony into a world.
Get a moniter (or two) to that choke point.
>
>
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:41:23 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.

Bolie Williams IV writes:
>If these sorts of ships were very common, then I would expect that
>someone would operate fast shuttles to start bringing cargo in from
>as far out as the 100 diameter limit.
Well, I designed the shuttles that brought the personnel in from the ships
for their shore leave to double as cargo ferries. I had considered that the
MegaCorp might own facilities at each world along the main with its own
shuttles. This would save carrying them on the ship but I felt that because
of the variance in starports along the line and in the interests of
self-sufficiency and in case of redeployment it would be better to have
them on the ship. It didn't really change the cost that much.

>but if the ships could afford to wait near the most likely
>entry point, they could get goods to the planet much faster than the
>large cargo ship.
True, but I felt that speed wasn't of prime concern. There is also
negotiating leverage. If you wait out at 100 diameters, then conclude your
deal, and start the cargo on its inward trip, they might change their mind
or pull some last minute negotiations once it is already inbound and made
the turnover. I.e. you, the seller, have already made the mass committment
with time for the buyer to twist you around.
Whereas if you send the _whole_ ship in, buyers can't do this to you. You
have the option of selling anything you want from your speculative hold.
The way I played this out meant, as well, that what exactly they were going
to dump on the market became rather important. If, for example, they
decided to dump several hundred tons of oranges here, rather than the next
world or two down, they might bankrupt the tramp who just got in with a hot
cargo of oranges. It wouldn't make the supertankers well loved by other
traders.
Additionally, as soon as the tanker gets in and starts publishing parts of
its manifest, the local commodities market will start fluctuating. Brokers
will start watching closely what the ship says it has, what commodity bonds
the ship itself is buying or selling, etc, etc. 'Tankers with good brokers
can probably make as much playing the local market (since they _know_ what
they are carrying) as they make on the cargo they dump. (It also gives a
good justification for random rolls on a table - "yes, they get a lousy
price for their oranges on this Agricultural world but it depresses the
fruit market and they can buy up the local strawberries at a much better
Cr/ton rate to pass on to the next world.") Needless to say this
marketeering doesn't enamour them to anyone either.

>If the large ships were modular with large detachable
>cargo pods, tugs could do the work for you.
I designed all the ships as "open frame". I had envisaged large, orbital
zero-G warehouses maintained by the MegaCorp at various nodal points. Your
idea works well with this. I like it.

One final point on close-orbit -vs- 100 diameters. Marc has said (on HIWG?)
that a ship comes into orbit from jump at 100 diameters roughly along a
line between the two masses it is jumping between. If you put a station up
at 100 diameters it is going to have to be in orbit around the mass.
Because of its orbit, the planetary orbit, etc, etc, it is essentially
random _where_ a ship might come it along the 100 diameter radius and where
you might place the station. On average it is going to be 3 times further
away (?) than a station in low-orbit.

Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:10:18 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: Supertankers, etc.

> Bolie Williams IV offered:
> 
>>On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
>>      Normal operations were to jump in at 100 diameters and immediately
>> begin conducting electronic busines. The ship would then, slowly, make its
>> way down to zero-G docks while the bulk of the crew shuttled down to
>> starport and stayed there during the time in port. Once the ship got to
>> dock it would shif brokered cargo in and out from company warehouses,
>> refuel, resupply, and start heading out. The crew would then shuttle back
>> as it neared the jump point and it would jump for the next destination.
>
>If these sorts of ships were very common, then I would expect that
>someone would operate fast shuttles to start bringing cargo in from
>as far out as the 100 diameter limit.  I'm not sure how much time you
>could save, but if the ships could afford to wait near the most likely
>entry point, they could get goods to the planet much faster than the
>large cargo ship.  If the large ships were modular with large
detachable
>cargo pods, tugs could do the work for you.

Not bad, but let's carry it a little further.

If fast shuttles are worthwhile in some systems, why not just
have a permanent company-owned orbital base out near a gas
giant? It would serve as a cargo transport hub as well as a
maintenance/refueling depot for the tankers. Some would even
have recreational facilities and quarters for ship's crews in those
systems which don't have them...or even those that do (i.e. the
company engages in what I call "payroll recovery". This could
lead to having scheduled payroll delivery runs (though these would
probably be electronic in nature), supply runs, etc.

Lots and lots of intra-system traffic to these bases in addition
to normal system traffic would be justification for defining traffic
lanes, both public and restricted, for keeping PCs from choosing
just any old course to an above/below the ecliptic jump point. This
can, in turn, allow for the "darker elements" of society
(pi-pir-pi...aw, I can't say it) to hop between these types of systems
for a little occasional "grazing" of smaller targets. I can even see
one of the tankers being seized for its cargo by a small Vargr
action group for scavenging by a small population world after
which the ship itself is broken up for parts/materials.

Jo and Bolie, you've both got some great ideas. I can see them all
working in combination in any Traveller universe. This is some good
stuff, folks!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:19:32 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Update available for Robot spreadsheet...

Well, following in the long, standard tradition of releasing a product
before it was truly ready, I have already upgraded my robot design worksheet
to version 1.1 and posted it to my web site. Some of the changes are minor,
but there is a big one - power plant volume wasn't being included! Ack! The
quality control people will be sacked...

You can get the Robot design spreadsheet (and my FF&S starship design
spreadsheet) on my Traveller website:
www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm

For the robot sheet, go to the logistics page. For the FF&S sheet, go to the
drydock page.

Comments are welcome.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:11:50 EDT
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established TravellerStandards

In a message dated 98-04-09 12:47:32 EDT, you write:

<< I give it a C+ for traveller canon.  The writing is ok, but nothing to
 email home about.  The story has me guessing, and I've pretty well hooked
 into it.  Altogether, not too bad.  >>

Basically, the writer had a copy of T4 (and several other IG titles) and kind
of cribbed from them as he wrote. Basically, he threw away Asland and K'kree
because he read about them and included them as a few paragraphs of flavor.

But he did TRY to stick to the Traveller feel.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:42:46 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: TML PBeM

Is the TML PBeM still going on?  I'd love to get in on it if possible.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., aka, Unit JAC of the Line, Ogre Mk V
Borg:  You will be assimilated!  Vilani:  (yawn) Yeah, whatever.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc+
You might be a Traveller player if...You know the exact volume of you
car's fuel tank in kilo-liters.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:01:46 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Supertankers, etc.

>Well, I don't think you would use shuttles.  The point of
>these ships is to ship things that don't have to get there
>very fast in a cheaper manner.  ("When it positively, absolutely,
>has to get there sooner or later")  [I'm not sure you would
>go with 0.2G, maybe only 0.05 G, though you might have
>some that can do two J-1's (or maybe 4 J-0.5's :-)]
>Transfering the cargo with a fast (and expensive) shuttle
>defeats the purpose of keeping cost down.  (Jo's shuttle
>it good because it meanst that you can arrange purchase/
>sale and give the crew vacations while the ship is in
>motion).  If you wanted to speed things up, I don't think
>you would use a shuttle, you would just have a mass driver
>and fling the cargo to whatever you have to catch them.
>Then you just use another one to fling cargo back out
>and you never leave 100 diam.

I just had an idea.  How about the MERCHANT RIDER!  Say, a million ton open
frame carrying scads of 10,000 ton "ships" (basically aerodynamic containers
with maneuver drives).  Momma pops out of J-space, babies detach, land, do
their thing, reconnect.  you could also have a few babies dedicated to
refueling.

Just a weird idea.  Haven't finished my coffee.

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:50:25 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RPGs and Education (Was: Re: H et C)

Loren Wiseman posted:
>
>Who said RPGs weren't educational?

That's why I've stuck with Traveller all these years; it helps stretch my
mind. My wife told me one of things that she found interesting about
me was that she once caught me watching a video when she came
over to my apartment while we were dating.

The title of the video: The Beginnings of the Universe.

She was very impressed that I was fascinated with the interaction of
mesons on other forms of matters...and, no, I didn't explain *why* I
was fascinated.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:02:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: H et C

Loren <GDWGAMES@aol.com> wrote:

> >I was watching Connections3 on TLC last night, and one of the connections
> >he flashed through (actually showed a plaque on screen with the name) was
> >a company called Hortalez et Cie. My jaw dropped, and did a quick
> >'saywhat??' 
>
> Gahd! Someone finally noticed? Can the discovery of Twylo be far behind? (the
> world with perfect 20/20/20/20 vision?)

Actually, the person who played IASIC in the TML PBeM noticed this several
years ago -- his comment was "Those Vilani aren't so great at management; 
Good Old Conservative Terran Business Practice for Hortalez has kept them
in business for over 3800 years!"  He'd been reading about Franklin at the
time.

Of course, it was carefully pointed out to him that the Vilani "Big Three"
megacorporations are about ten thousand years old....  GSbAG is the oldest
Terran firm I know of in the game; Marc Miller's "Luna" article suggests
they're founded in the 21st century, prior to the invention of jump drive
(about 3600 years).  Wasn't GSbAG in a Triplanetary scenario?  :)

> Who said RPGs weren't educational?

Not me.  :)

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:02:25 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.

Brian Mays wrote:

> >Well, I don't think you would use shuttles.  The point of
> >these ships is to ship things that don't have to get there
> >very fast in a cheaper manner.  ("When it positively, absolutely,
> >has to get there sooner or later")  [I'm not sure you would
> >go with 0.2G, maybe only 0.05 G, though you might have
> >some that can do two J-1's (or maybe 4 J-0.5's :-)]
> >Transfering the cargo with a fast (and expensive) shuttle
> >defeats the purpose of keeping cost down.  (Jo's shuttle
> >it good because it meanst that you can arrange purchase/
> >sale and give the crew vacations while the ship is in
> >motion).  If you wanted to speed things up, I don't think
> >you would use a shuttle, you would just have a mass driver
> >and fling the cargo to whatever you have to catch them.
> >Then you just use another one to fling cargo back out
> >and you never leave 100 diam.
>
> I just had an idea.  How about the MERCHANT RIDER!  Say, a million ton open
> frame carrying scads of 10,000 ton "ships" (basically aerodynamic containers
> with maneuver drives).  Momma pops out of J-space, babies detach, land, do
> their thing, reconnect.  you could also have a few babies dedicated to
> refueling.

Sure.  I've been working on this idea but on a smaller scale.  Does a system
REALLY ship a million tons of cargo every week? If the babies supply the jump
fuel necessary to displace their own volume, then momma can stay in jumpspace
about 90% of the time.  Jump in. Deploy babies. Take on waiting babies. Jump
out. This makes more efficient use of the jump drives (although that's got its
own problems too, like when do you do maintenance). The next question is how
much do you charge for this service? Refined fuel runs about 50 Cr/dT/Pc which
is a good basis for expenses. Doubling would be a good rule of thumb to account
for crew compensation.  This yeilds 400 Cr/dT for long range J-6 freight, less
concidering non-cargo portions of babies.

My design is a modular freighter that can link jump drives for greater
capacity.  Its only 400 dT but can link any number together (practically only 25
or so).  It uses a 50dT standard modular cutter to carry two 15  dT cylinder
modules to and from the surface.

Somebody else (can't remember, sorry) is working on a lollipop freighter that
does the same thing but links off a stick.  I was thinking about this too,
assuming the "stick" is less than 7 meters in diameter, my coinstack could mate
with his lollipop through the cutter bay.   The whole thing would look kinda
freakish... and I wouldn't want to get into a fight with that mess.  But then
again, a million dT monster would look pretty freakish anyway...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:32:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: FW: Purchasing your  McDonnell Douglas Aircraft]

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, David J. Golden wrote:
 
> 	LockMart makes the Falcon!

LockMart...hmmmm

Why do I get the picture of a giant warehouse store stuffed with giant
size cartons of weapons, and scads of PC's in there spending eevery credit
they'll ever have...;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:26:33 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.


Unfortunately Joe. The spine of my "lollipop" measures out to about 9.5
meters across at a docking ring module. Each of these modules is stacked
with smaller tunnel modules about 2 deck high between. (Very rough layout
below)

>=O=<  Docking Ring
    ( )  Tunnel
    ( )
>=O=<  Docking Ring
    ( )   Tunnel
    ( )
>=O=<  Docking Ring
    ( )
 _ ( )_
[         ]
[         ]  Jump/Manuver Drive
   ^ ^

Each tunnel and docking ring module is removeable, and can dock upto 4
shuttles/containers. I've also added a docking/mating ring to the tug design
I sent to the list last night, so now I'm thinking that a decent
configuration might be several containers, a tug, and a shuttle for the
crew.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

>Somebody else (can't remember, sorry) is working on a lollipop freighter that
>does the same thing but links off a stick.  I was thinking about this too,
>assuming the "stick" is less than 7 meters in diameter, my coinstack could mate
>with his lollipop through the cutter bay.   The whole thing would look kinda
>freakish... and I wouldn't want to get into a fight with that mess.  But then
>again, a million dT monster would look pretty freakish anyway...
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:36:56 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

This is why people ask questions.  When a situation arises when
the AI is unsure of why something was to be done, it should ask
questions of it's superior.  In this way the exception can be 
handled and the AI can also find out if it should make these 
exceptions automatically, or whether it should just forget 
about the incident without adding the rule to it's rulebase.

Eric
- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, April 05, 1998 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)



>I'd say that the problems are long training time *and* the fact that
>the brain *keeps* learning. So even though you can copy a "starter",
>due to the inherently "limited" experience of the robot brain it has a
>much stronger tendency than humans to "learn the wrong lesson". This
>*severely* limits their usefulness.
>
>In other words, any time you have the AI make an exception, or tell it
>that the rules *here* are a bit different from the ones it was trained
>under, you increase the chance that it'll make a "wrong" decision at
>some future point. 
>
>Such wrong decisions should have a sort of logic too them, but kind of
>skewed. Say for example that you'd told a "customs" robot to let
>Frederick Fortesque, the leader of some planet, thru without being
>checked. Alas, you weren't *specific* in stating that he was let thru
>because he was the leader. So the AI might decide that people named
>Frederick, or Fortesque don't need to be checked.
>
>This is a *reasonable* decision GIVEN THE AI'S KNOWLEDGE. The fact that
>it is ludicrous in *human* terms is merely because of our greater
>knowledge base.
>
>This is also great for driving players *nuts*. 
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #384
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 10 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 385



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Reality catches up with Traveller?
Re: Re: nuclear warhead yields--Rocky Flats
Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established TravellerStandards
Re: Imperium
Yet another robot spreadsheet upgrade...
Uniforms II
Re: Supertankers, etc.
MT/T4 Items
Re: Supertankers, etc.
Imperium
sorry about this being off topic, but it is funny
Re: Hortalez et Cie
Re: sorry about this being off topic, but it is funny
Totaly off the subject.
Re: Supertankers, etc. (Plus Jump Drive question)
RE: Building Worlds, important questions...
And yet another spreadsheet update...
Re: Supertankers, etc. (Plus Jump Drive question)
Re: Supertankers, etc. (Plus Jump Drive question)
Re: Water as Bullets???
Re: Supertankers, etc. (Plus Jump Drive question)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:13:01 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Reality catches up with Traveller?

Hiya all.
    Last week I was looking through this years Science News magazines at the library, and
came across a genetics story that seems to fit with the Traveller Anagathics
rules.

The article in question discussed Telomerase (sp?), an enzyme that can evidently add
telomeres to the ends of DNA strands that either have none, or have very little (as in the
case of a cell that has divided nearly to it's limit).  It has been theorized for years that the
telomeres on the ends of DNA strands limit the amount of times that a cell
can divide.
The researchers in the article have evidenced that the addition of telomeres to the ends
of DNA strands not only increases the amount of cell divisions, but also multiplies the
life of that cell by a (kind of forgot the specifics here but think this is close) 5-10 times.
The cells not only live longer, but live healthier, without the cellular breakdowns that
occur in aging cells.

This is pretty neat stuff. The researchers have only tested the Telomerase on skin and
retinal cells (of humans).  One of the drawbacks about this method for increasing
lifespan in animals (mice w/human immune systems & humans specifically) is that
this is the same method used by cancer cells to become immortal, and everyone knows
that cancer cells divide uncontrollably creating tumors.

The uncontrollable growth factor is the disadvantage that makes this sound exactly
like the Anagathics used in Traveller.   The Anagathics side effects table (in TNE) lists
minor growths, major growths, and major disfigurement as some of the side effects.

At any rate it sounds like we may have just invented Traveller Anagathics. Pretty cool,
however I have hope that additional methods will be developed to control the uncontrolled
cell division problem.  Start looking for "Immortal Mice" to be created within the next five
years or so.  The article mentioned that several organizations are already rushing to do
just that.

Eric

"May you live long and prosper"
                                              - parting words used by a
certain alien species in YANTU*

*note - YANTU => Yet Another Non Traveller Universe

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:40:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: Don Stark <stark@glacier.nrlssc.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Re: nuclear warhead yields--Rocky Flats

> 
> Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 18:39:04 -0600
> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> Subject: Re: nuclear warhead yields
> 
> At 04:41 pm 4/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >For further information, I *strongly* recommend that you visit the
> >"High Energy Weapons Archive" at "http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/".
> 
> 	Fascinating site, but now I'm quite curious. I was browsing around
> the list of US weapons, and the entry for the W88 (warhead for the
> Trident submarine launched ballistic missile) say production was "...
> prematurely terminated by FBI raid on Rocky Flats" WHAT?!?!?! What
> was the Department of Energy doing that caused an FBI RAID ON A
> NUCLEAR WEAPONS FACILITY????

Gross mismanagement of fissionable materials. Safety violations.
I've heard that enough plutonium was found in the air ducts to 
build a good sized bomb. The place was a contamination disaster 
waiting to happen. Most people don't realize that plutonium is highly
corrosive, so most containment facilities "rot" away over time.


- -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                |                                   |
Don Stark                       |           ,/7_                    |
                                |          /   _`,                  |
Naval Research Lab, Code 7322   |         (.)\) \|_                 |
Bay St. Louis, MS 39529         |          0    /^~'                |
- --------------------------------|                                   |
e-mail: stark@nrlssc.navy.mil   |                                   |
- --------------------------------|                                   |
Phone: (228) 688-4151 work      |              ' )( `               |
       (228) 688-4759 fax       |   ~~~~~~~~~~~''  ``~~~~~~~~~~~~   |
- --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:51:43 -0700
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established TravellerStandards

CardSharks wrote:

> But he did TRY to stick to the Traveller feel.
>
> Marc

I checked out the new Trav book at the bookstore yesterday, and one of the neat
surprises in it is all the game info in the back.

These 4 or 6 pages in the back are better than several pages in the T4 main
book.  There's some good game info in that thing--things I'm dying to see in T4.1

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:40:08 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperium

>Just got hold of a 1st Ed copy of Imperium thanks to Marc/FFE, and was
>wondering if anyone could let me know what differences (if any) there are
>between the rules in the first and second editions?


>>  I believe no errata exist as such or are needed. The 1990's
>>re-release with hard map-boards deleted the third star w/o a
>>system box (near Apishal/Zaggisi) IIRC, but I can check that.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:39:28 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Yet another robot spreadsheet upgrade...

I'm upgrading this as soon as people find problems...I wish I had found all
of these myself :P

Version 1.2 of my robot design spreadsheet is available on the logistics
page of my Traveller web site:
www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm

Version 1.2 fixes a serious problem with batteries, as well as adding some
clarifications.

For those of you who do not own Book 8:Robots, I have placed a guide to the
URP (Universal Robot Profile) also on my web site.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:37:31 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Uniforms II

Does any know what the medals for the imperrium look like?
- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:06:22 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.

Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:39:55 -0500 (CDT), Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
> With shuttles like this, the large cargo ships could transport stuff
> as fast as anything could be transported (1 week per jump) over short
> distances.  This would work well in a cluster of J-1 or J-2 stars.
> Not worthwhile for longer trips, of course.

Well, to me the point is cost, not speed.  

In Traveller, the implication is that you have the
shipping of large bulk cargoes like grain.  This
is the sort of thing you would carry it them.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:09:08 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: MT/T4 Items

A couple local stores has some MT/T4 items available at retail
(some MT items may be reduced). If you're looking for anything,
let me know and I'll check on it.

By the way, anyone know if Joe Walsh is still receiving from
the TML? I haven't seen any postings from him from quite a while.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:12:32 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.

> Sure.  I've been working on this idea but on a smaller scale.  Does a system
> REALLY ship a million tons of cargo every week? If the babies supply the jump
> fuel necessary to displace their own volume, then momma can stay in jumpspace
> about 90% of the time.

You should then double the crew requirements so you can rotate them out
for vacations...

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:13:46 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Imperium

Strategies:
Some ideas on strategies for this wonderful game: 

If you're the Empire, match the Terran Missile Boats with about two fighter
squadrons each (if you can). Without fighters or scouts for screening units,
his Missile Boats will frag your capital ships faster than you get them back.

Again for the Empire, don't worry as much about colonization as the Terrans
need to. Save your bases for invading his important worlds and taking worlds
you don't want him to have.

Terrans: Make use of your interior lines of communication in the first war. 
A unit based near Terra can do a reaction move to either frontier for most
of the game. As best you can, maintain a solid line at the choke point 
planets - a few Impie destroyers blockading your homeworlds while
your cruisers are dying over Epsilon Eridani will really hurt your income,
much more than you doing the same to the Impies would hurt them.

Both sides:

Best you can, do not go into interwar attrition with any of your Jump
Troops in the casualty pile. Even if they are attrited between wars,
you'll still have a garrison unit left behind - and if they aren't attrited, 
you'll have a nice commando unit to start the next festivities with.

Keep careful track of glory points. I've seen the Terrans goad the
Empire into winning a war - the victory (with the Terran 
inter-war colonization) cost the Empire everything lost during the
war by both sides and more. Remember that taking a planet
may win the war for you, sending your victorius forces home
before you've had a chance to consolidate any of your gains.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:23:07 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: sorry about this being off topic, but it is funny

someone sent me this VERY funny spoof of a customer questionnaire. I hope some
wisea-- figures out a way to use it in a Traveller campaign. Here it is:

This was actually posted very briefly on the McDonnell Douglas website by
>an employee there who obviously has a sense of humor. The company, of
>course, does not - and made the web department take it down immediately.
>(In case you don't know: McDonnell Douglas is one of the world's chief
>suppliers of military aircraft).
>_____________________________________________________________________
>
>Thank you for purchasing a McDonnell Douglas military aircraft. In order to
>protect your new investment, please take a few moments to fill out the
>warranty registration card below. Answering the survey questions is not
>required, but the information will help us to develop new products that
>best meet your needs and desires.
>
>1.  [_] Mr.  [_] Mrs.  [_] Ms.  [_] Miss  [_] Lt.
>    [_] Gen.  [_] Comrade  [_] Classified  [_] Other
>    First Name: ............................
>    Initial: ...
>    Last Name: .............................
>    Password: .............................. (max 8 char)
>    Code Name: .............................
>    Latitude-Longitude-Altitude: ...........  ...........
>
>2. Which model aircraft did you purchase?
>    [_] F-14 Tomcat
>    [_] F-15 Eagle
>    [_] F-16 Falcon
>    [_] F-117A Stealth
>    [_] Classified
>
>3. Date of purchase (Year/Month/Day): 19.. / .. / ..
>
>4. Serial Number: .......................
>
>5. Please check where this product was purchased:
>    [_] Received as gift / aid package
>    [_] Catalog showroom
>    [_] Independent arms broker
>    [_] Mail order
>    [_] Discount store
>    [_] Government surplus
>    [_] Classified
>
>6. Please check how you became aware of the McDonnell Douglas product you
>have just purchased:
>    [_] Heard loud noise, looked up
>    [_] Store display
>    [_] Espionage
>    [_] Recommended by friend / relative / ally
>    [_] Political lobbying by manufacturer
>    [_] Was attacked by one
>
>7. Please check the three (3) factors that most influenced your decision to
>purchase this McDonnell Douglas product:
>    [_] Style / appearance
>    [_] Speed / maneuverability
>    [_] Price / value
>    [_] Comfort / convenience
>    [_] Kickback / bribe
>    [_] Recommended by salesperson
>    [_] McDonnell Douglas reputation
>    [_] Advanced Weapons Systems
>    [_] Backroom politics
>    [_] Negative experience opposing one in combat
>
>8. Please check the location(s) where this product will be used:
>    [_] North America
>    [_] Central / South America
>    [_] Aircraft carrier
>    [_] Europe
>    [_] Middle East
>    [_] Africa
>    [_] Asia / Far East
>    [_] Misc. Third World countries
>    [_] Classified
>
>9. Please check the products that you currently own or intend to purchase
>in the near future:
>    [_] Color TV
>    [_] VCR
>    [_] ICBM
>    [_] Killer Satellite
>    [_] CD Player
>    [_] Air-to-Air Missiles
>    [_] Space Shuttle
>    [_] Home Computer
>    [_] Nuclear Weapon
>
>10. How would you describe yourself or your organization?
>    (Check all that apply:)
>    [_] Communist / Socialist
>    [_] Terrorist
>    [_] Crazed
>    [_] Neutral
>    [_] Democratic
>    [_] Dictatorship
>    [_] Corrupt
>    [_] Primitive / Tribal
>
>11. How did you pay for your McDonnell Douglas product?
>    [_] Deficit spending
>    [_] Cash
>    [_] Suitcases of cocaine
>    [_] Oil revenues
>    [_] Personal check
>    [_] Credit card
>    [_] Ransom money
>    [_] Traveler's check
>
>12. Your occupation:
>    [_] Homemaker
>    [_] Sales / marketing
>    [_] Revolutionary
>    [_] Clerical
>    [_] Mercenary
>    [_] Tyrant
>    [_] Middle management
>    [_] Eccentric billionaire
>    [_] Defense Minister / General
>    [_] Retired
>    [_] Student
>
>13. To help us understand our customers' lifestyles, please indicate the
>interests and activities in which you and your spouse enjoy participating
>on a regular basis:
>    [_] Golf
>    [_] Boating / sailing
>    [_] Sabotage
>    [_] Running / jogging
>    [_] Propaganda / disinformation
>    [_] Destabilization / overthrow
>    [_] Default on loans
>    [_] Gardening
>    [_] Crafts
>    [_] Black market / smuggling
>    [_] Collectibles / collections
>    [_] Watching sports on TV
>    [_] Wines
>    [_] Interrogation / torture
>    [_] Household pets
>    [_] Crushing rebellions
>    [_] Espionage / reconnaissance
>    [_] Fashion clothing
>    [_] Border disputes
>    [_] Mutually Assured Destruction
>
>Thank you for taking the time to fill out this questionnaire. Your answers
>will be used in market studies that will help McDonnell Douglas serve you
>better in the future - as well as allowing you to receive mailings and
>special offers from other companies, governments, extremist groups, and
>mysterious consortia.
>
>Comments or suggestions about our fighter planes? Please write to:
>
>              McDONNELL DOUGLAS CORPORATION
>              Marketing Department
>              Military Aerospace Division
>              P.O. Box 800, St. Louis, MO


Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:26:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Hortalez et Cie

Funny what you find once your mind is on a subject.  Interesting note taken
from the Alfa Romeo digest; posted by a French subscriber, on a completely
unrelated subject:

>He was the money/admin guy in the de Dion, Bouton et Cie
>car maker (Cie is an abbreviation for compagnie, used in the
>same meaning as '& al' and not as in '& company').

So now you know what the "et Cie" part was for.

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:31:03 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: sorry about this being off topic, but it is funny

Sethkimmel wrote:

> someone sent me this VERY funny spoof of a customer questionnaire. I hope some
> wisea-- figures out a way to use it in a Traveller campaign. Here it is:
>
> This was actually posted very briefly on the McDonnell Douglas website by
> >an employee there who obviously has a sense of humor. The company, of
> >course, does not - and made the web department take it down immediately.
> >(In case you don't know: McDonnell Douglas is one of the world's chief
> >suppliers of military aircraft).

Hasn't this already been posted here?


- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:37:32 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Totaly off the subject.

I am trying to get a free form RPG going on my web page.  Anyone who
would like to, please come by.

- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:48:28 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc. (Plus Jump Drive question)

> Unfortunately Joe. The spine of my "lollipop" measures out to about 9.5
> meters across at a docking ring module. Each of these modules is stacked
> with smaller tunnel modules about 2 deck high between. (Very rough layout
> below)
>
> >=O=<  Docking Ring
>     ( )  Tunnel
>     ( )
> >=O=<  Docking Ring
>     ( )   Tunnel
>     ( )
> >=O=<  Docking Ring
>     ( )
>  _ ( )_
> [         ]
> [         ]  Jump/Manuver Drive
>    ^ ^
>

How long are the tunnels?  If they're 27+ meters, we could do docking ring/coin
stack/docking ring.  Then make some sort of rotating axle on the coinstacks to
get a REALLY freaky effect.

On a more serious note, why are jump drives located at the rear of ships?  The
don't "push" the ship.  As best as I can tell, they just form  some sort of
bubble and fall into the jump tunnel.  To me this would imply that jump drives
don't need to be at the rear of ships.

> Each tunnel and docking ring module is removeable, and can dock upto 4
> shuttles/containers. I've also added a docking/mating ring to the tug design
> I sent to the list last night, so now I'm thinking that a decent
> configuration might be several containers, a tug, and a shuttle for the
> crew.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:59:14 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: RE: Building Worlds, important questions...

Brian Mays wrote:
> > > And my final question. If a world is the satellite of a
> > > gas giant, is there a way to figure out the average
> > > temperature, or how much sunlight it will receive? Will
> > > it receive any sunlight at all when it's on the opposite
> > > side of the gas giant. That may sound kind of stupid, but
> > > I'm just not sure of how that works.
> >
> > It doesn't sound stupid to me, I don't really know. As a
> > guideline however, think of how rare lunar eclipses are on
> > Earth. Also note that the earth casts two "grades" of
> > shadow on the moon; The Umbra and Penumbra. The Penumbra
> > borders the Umbra and is somewhat less dark (I think it has
> > to do with refracted light passed through the earth's
> > atmosphere).
>
> My astronomy is a little rusty, but don't large gas giants
> radiate heat? A satellite therefore might be warmed by the Gas
> Giant and also be very very dark . . .

Something else to bare in mind - magnetism and radiation belts:

Like the Earth, Jupiter has a magnetic field but (as expected) it
is far more intense.  The magnetic field extends  out  some  21.5
million km and is 10,000 times stronger than the Earth's.  Anyone
passing through the radiation belt (at about 200,000 km out  from
Jupiter) can expect to take 250,000 rads (500  times  the  lethal
dosage).  The movement of the moon Io through this magnetic field
generates a current of 5 million ampares (a 100 watt  light  bulb
has a current of 1 ampare).  This electrical  current  is  slowly
eroding Io  away.  Gasses  from  Io's  volcanoes  break  up  into
charged particles, along with surface matter, to form  a  growing
invisible doughnut-shaped electrical cloud around the planet.


Regards PLST
<no tag today>
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:11:15 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: And yet another spreadsheet update...

You ever get the feeling that maybe you jumped the gun a bit?

Some more people have found some pretty serious bugs in my robot
spreadsheet, which has been updated once again. Bugs concerning the Brain
and Batteries have been fixed.

You can get the newest version on my web site, in the Logistics section:

www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:14:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc. (Plus Jump Drive question)

On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:

> On a more serious note, why are jump drives located at the rear of ships?  The
> don't "push" the ship.  As best as I can tell, they just form  some sort of
> bubble and fall into the jump tunnel.  To me this would imply that jump drives
> don't need to be at the rear of ships.

Probably to be closer to the power plant and other engineering systems,
since it seems that related expertise is required to crew them.


Clark


- --
"Remember, if you see a flash:  It's Duck!  And Cover!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:15:32 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc. (Plus Jump Drive question)

Typical installations would be about 2-3 decks high (9 meters) however,
since they are modules they can be stacked on each other. Gosh, what a
sight!

As to your questions. I do not typically place J-drives at the rear of the
ship. More typically I place them near (not strictly, just close, or
whereever there is room). Thrusters, however, I tend to plan out near the
"rear" or opposed to the direction of thrust. Exceptions to this would be if
they are on booms, but since I see the spine as being filled with attached
pods, shuttles etc. I figured on the drives at the rear. This is due to the
fact that in MTU the concentrated and directional gravitational fields
emmitted by the thrusters are less than healthy, so I try to avoid having
them travel through occupied areas.

CG, again not being as consetrated or as directional as thrusters, are also
placed in odd areas, usually centerish of the hull. To make it easier on the
engineers, I tend to group J-drive, CG, and power plant. This also adds
substantial armour, even if Traveller's combat rules don't take it into
account.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc. (Plus Jump Drive question)
>How long are the tunnels?  If they're 27+ meters, we could do docking
ring/coin
>stack/docking ring.  Then make some sort of rotating axle on the coinstacks
to
>get a REALLY freaky effect.
>
>On a more serious note, why are jump drives located at the rear of ships?
The
>don't "push" the ship.  As best as I can tell, they just form  some sort of
>bubble and fall into the jump tunnel.  To me this would imply that jump
drives
>don't need to be at the rear of ships.
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:47:26 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Water as Bullets???

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> At 11:48 AM 09/04/98 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
> >We've used liquid-air frozen crossbow bolts in various campaigns. They
> >find someone dead,  with a big hole in them, and maybe a little water in
> >the wound.
>
> That reminds me of a book by Colin Kapp, in which an assassin uses a
> crossbow firing frozen blood, so it looks like the victim's throat was torn
> out by an ivisible spirit - great for terroizing the natives :)

Wicked, going to have use that one.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
 Fortalice Desertum
 (Home of the ClusterNuke)
 AD. 1998

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:34:50 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc. (Plus Jump Drive question)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael D. Peters <Letterworks@CITNET.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc. (Plus Jump Drive question)


>
>As to your questions. I do not typically place J-drives at the rear of the
>ship. More typically I place them near (not strictly, just close, or
>whereever there is room).

Sorry that line should read "More typically I place them near (not strictly,
just close, or wherever there is room) to the CENTER OF THE HULL".

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #385
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 11 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 386



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Ship Engineering
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #375
Re: sorry about this being off topic, but it is funny
Re: X-boats
[T98#381] Traveller Links
Rob Prior: Web site fixes
travlist:  starshipwright needed
Re: M:0 file for Galactic
Re: X-boats
Re: Purchasing your McDonnell Douglas Aircraft
Re: sorry about this being off topic, but it is funny
[TML] - GURPS question
Re: Imperium
Leszek Karlik, Where Are You?
Re: Leszek Karlik, Where Are You?
More Assorted
Re: More Assorted
Re: TNE Hivers
Re: Purchasing your McDonnell Douglas Aircraft
Re: Uniforms II (Long!)
Re: Fusion (was Re: Pillaging worlds)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:00:32 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Ship Engineering

The recent discussion about Jump Drives and Fusion Reactors has got me
thinking.  For one thing, if the plasma from the fusion reactor can be
directly converted into mechanical energy (rather than heating water),
this mechanical energy can spin an HPG thus generating the electricity
which can be drawn off the HPG at whatever rate you need. Since HPG's
reduce in size (per storage capacity) with Tech level, this explains why
fusion reactors reduce in size (per MW produced) with tech level. At TL
15 a kL of fusion reactor produces 6 MW or 6 Mj/sec.  At maximum output
it requires a 0.21 kL HPG to store the energy.  A little over a fifth of
the reactor would be HPG.

Now its been mentioned that a jump drive is one third HPG.  So the
question is can you design a ship that uses the same HPG for power plant
and jump drive, thus saving on volume and mass.  And two, how large
would the powerplant be if it was capable of producing the necessary
power for the jump (not counting the injection mass).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:55:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #375

Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com> wrote:

Writen by me
>> Really. Look at Dune, forex. The whole culture is one based around honour
>> and ethics (eg Kanly) yet non of the Landsraad so much as blinks when the
>> Harkonnen's butcher the Atreides and their retainers.
>
>AGREED.  100%.  But would you want to run a campaign in this universe?
>No.

I would (but there again I like the feel of Cyberpunk, Vampire and Elric
and I see the later Imperium as a society that has stabilised and can
afford ethical niceties). You may disagree...


>Anyway, look at the Chanestin world UPPs in the 1100s - boring TL, yawn
>worlds.  In M:0, these guys almost kill the Imperium before it starts.
>Guess what got bombed back to the stone age.

Yep, IIRC the capital of the Chanestin is Keshi which is somewhat dead in
M0. Remember - the Imperium my forbid member states the use of nukes but
reserves the right to use them itself.

>Further, the real villian of the piece is this Lentuli guy.  The PCs (by
>the year 0) are Cleon's close associates.  But this Lentuli guy shows
>up around the time of the end of the Chanestin War, and appeals to all
>of Cleon's bad feelings.  A few drinks and an arranged romance later,
>Lentuli is on the fast track for making the Imperium a not too friendly
>place.
>
>And our PCs are wondering what happened...

;-) Like it.


>Hey, I don't deny that.  But allow your players to live on the same
>idealism the Victorians did to justify their actions, and produce the same
>noble individuals who bucked the system as well.

Yes, I agree. In my game the players will not be seeing the nasty side of
the Imperium at first, or maybe ever. It's not mentioned in polite
society...

>Insert Rudyard Kipling's 'The White Man's Burden' here...
>We should have brought some of that nobility from Space: 1889 over to M:0.

Where's "Nobles" when you need it...?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:17:20 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: sorry about this being off topic, but it is funny

Sorry; I didn't know that, or I wouldn't have posted it again.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:22:57 -0700
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats

>Sure, computers, and robot brains could do the job just as well w/o a
>living pilot.  They could have done so at TL 13 just as well as TL 15,
>however, Imperial regulations state that every ship going into jump must
>have a qualified pilot on board.  Both the scout service and the various
>merchant pilot associations happily support this regulation since their
>jobs would be in jeopardy if it was ever changed.

The problems I have with explanations like this are

1. It replaces one handwave (starships require living pilots) with two
handwaves (robot brains could do the job just as well but government
regulations require living pilots). Three handwaves, actually, since other
agencies now happily support these regulations. I'm not saying these
handwaves are implausible, just that they are not supported by other rules,
and open loopholes for even more inconsistencies.

2. It hides campaign-specific rules in the design rules. So now starship
crews depend on government regulations and not just the requirements of the
ship. What about all the other design rules? Maybe fusion generators are
really only a fraction of a ton but government regulations require them to
have tons of fire suppresion equipment?

3. It makes the rules unusable for other campaigns or settings. What if
different societies don't have these regulations, or my campaign is not in
the Third Imperium? What design rules do I use then?

4. It unbalances the game. A ship that doesn't need a pilot can carry more
cargo for less money. If the rules allow for it I can't believe that no one
on the entire history of the Third Imperium hasn't tried it. And if they
haven't, players certainly will.

Look, I understand the reason for making these rulings, you don't like a
particular aspect of Traveller technology and want to "fix" it. The trouble
is that these little "fixes" will snowball into something that makes your
campaign significantly different from Traveller canon. I'm not saying canon
is perfect, but the rules we have are designed for it, and it provides a
common framework for us to discuss the game.

- --
Richard Hough
richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:30:17 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#381] Traveller Links

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:04:12 -0400, Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
wrote:

>Hey all, I am trying to collect a list of Traveller sites.  I would like to
>have any lists you all may have.

I hope to hell this isn't some sort of troll...

The impression I get is that almost any personal URL you spot on
this list is either a Traveller link itself, or has links to
Traveller pages.  You might want to start that way.  Most of the
Traveller links that these pages have will in turn have other
links; for example, Freelance Traveller
(http://www.tightbeam.com/FreelanceTraveller/) has a whole page
of them - follow the links to the Information Center, and then
Traveller on the Internet.  Be aware that there's going to be
quite a bit of duplication between the various link collections.

And may whatever deities you worship protect you if you even
_think_ about misusing the information you find.  The members of
this list sure as **** won't.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:55:11 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Rob Prior: Web site fixes

Sorry for another public email that should have been private: Rob,
there are a couple of links on your website that don't work,
including your email! The link to the starships library leads to the
software page, and none of the graphics for the counters seem to be
there.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:11:19 EDT
From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
Subject: travlist:  starshipwright needed

i need help on some starship designs.. and was hopeing to get some help form
those of you who actually have the FF&S books...

i need some ship designs for my soon to opened traveller website...  all
starshipwrights will be given full credit for their designs...  i have artwork
of what the ships will look like... 

please contact me with any responses with this in the subject header... 

RE: Starshipwright to the Rescue

thanks in advance...

rich

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:44:07 -0400
From: "Commander X (aka Arcanus)" <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: M:0 file for Galactic

>Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:44:22 -0700
>From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
>Subject: Re:Galactic

>Is there a file available that has been done for M:0?

>Dave

Yes, I have a galactic directory for Core sector in M:0.  It is not a
direct copy of what is in M:0 or FS.  It is a bit 'corrected' shall we
say :)

Me and Volker have done some research and done some mods to the original
data.  I have continued by highlighting the early interstellar rivals or
the Repubic/Imperium.  The Interstellar Confederacy and the Chanestin
Kingdom are but two.

The file is a zipped file which contains an entire directory structure
taken from my drive.  Unzip the file and look for the 'year0' directory.
Drag this into you gal32 directory.  you will have to edit the file
which contains the 'Galaxies' so you can select it.

Finaly, the url:
http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/ftp/year0.zip

Enjoy!

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:27:00 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: X-boats

Just to jump in on this quickly. The hand wave I use against automated
ships, and against the common use of Jump torpedoes, is that the transition
into and from J-space, causes a disruption in the computer logic for x
amount of time (x being variable from 20 minutes to 120 minutes, roll 2d6,
reducable but a computer task, see the following...).

This also caused disorientaion in the crew, but on a lesser scale
 activities for 10 minutes are at a +2 difficulty level). To reduce computer
disruption is typically a Difficult Task, success results in reducing a
computers downtime by 50% and the player can roll until a failure results,
or the comuter is restored.

( example: Ship leaves jump and it's computers are disrupted for 120 minutes
{roll of 12}, Pilot/Astrogator rolls computer task and succeeds, computer
downtime is reduced to 60 minutes. He/she rolls again and again succeeds,
reduceing downtime to 30 minutes, a third roll fails so the computer will be
down for 30 minutes)

Of course the Pilot/Astrogatorcan hand compute the ship's postion in the
destination system but I consider that a Staggering task...

This holds true until biological component computers (or Artifical
Intellegence {i.e. VIRUS}) comes into play, so far not IMTU). At that time I
intend to treat them as I treat crew activities.

The downside to this is the x-boat systems transmissions can be delayed. But
it has satified my players as to why automation isn't more prevalent.
J-torps have been tried, but can wander off course and delay their messages
even more than a human guided ship.

Don't know if this adds much to the thread, but it's worked for me. It also
gives the crew of the ship some activities when first entering a system.




- -----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: X-boats


>>Sure, computers, and robot brains could do the job just as well w/o a
>>living pilot.  They could have done so at TL 13 just as well as TL 15,
>>however, Imperial regulations state that every ship going into jump must
>>have a qualified pilot on board.  Both the scout service and the various
>>merchant pilot associations happily support this regulation since their
>>jobs would be in jeopardy if it was ever changed.
>
<Snipped>

>Look, I understand the reason for making these rulings, you don't like a
>particular aspect of Traveller technology and want to "fix" it. The trouble
>is that these little "fixes" will snowball into something that makes your
>campaign significantly different from Traveller canon. I'm not saying canon
>is perfect, but the rules we have are designed for it, and it provides a
>common framework for us to discuss the game.
>
>--
>Richard Hough
>richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:37:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Purchasing your McDonnell Douglas Aircraft

In Traveller-digest V1998 #380, Evyn MacDude
<wmacdude@concentric.net> writes:

I want start out by saying that the following brief diatribe is not
aimed at Evyn, but rather at the original author of the "Thank-you
letter."

> Put this in the catagory of things we should see more of.
        [snip]
> > This was actually posted very briefly on the McDonnell Douglas 
> > website by an employee there who obviously has a sense of humor. 

Not true.  This is one of *thousands* of urban myths.  I am *personally*
aware of it existing as far back as 1983.  Further, whoever created it
clearly has very little actual knowledge about the U.S. military air
defense industry.  Specifically:

> > 2.Which model aircraft did you purchase?
> > [_] F-14 Tomcat  [_] F-15 Eagle   [_] F-16 Falcon
> > [_] F-117A Stealth [_] Classified

The F-14 is manufactured by Grumman, not MacDonnell Douglas. General
Dynamics designed and built the F-16.  The F-117A Stealth was created
by Lockheed.  Only the F-15 Eagle was actually a McDonnell Douglas
product.

Sheesh.  Five minutes of lousy research is all it would have taken. :^/

        - Mark C.
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
       "Where am I... and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:33:53 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: sorry about this being off topic, but it is funny

No problem.  Thanks for thinking of us.

Sethkimmel wrote:

> Sorry; I didn't know that, or I wouldn't have posted it again.
>
> Seth



- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 02:00:02 -0400
From: Bill Rutherfotd <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: [TML] - GURPS question

Apologies for wasting list-width, but would somebody familiar with GURPS be
so kind as to email me off-list with a review of/general description of
GURPS?  I'm unfamiliar with the system and would like to find out what the
(moderate) stir was about a couple of weeks back...

OBTRAV:  SJG IS, after all, going to produce a sourcebook on T/GURPS...

Tx!



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:01:08 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Imperium

On Fri, 10 Apr 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> >Additionally, I seem to remember discussions of strategies in the last year
> >or so (Leonard? Doug?) and was wondering if anyone could give any hints! ;-)
> 
> If you are playing the Terrans, grab the choke point teritary system on the
> right side of the board.  Hold it all costs.  Yo can then develop the
> planet out a the end of that arm and turn it from a colony into a world.
> Get a moniter (or two) to that choke point.

One point : It takes many turns to get monitors to Sirius, they do not
have jump drives. 

What I noticed when playing Imperium after an eight year break, was that
the system one removed from Sirius to Terrans is very important. The
Terrans should control it, else Ziru Sirka gets almost free access to all
Terran systems.

- --
Mikko Parviainen
 IMTU tc+ tm++ tn+ ru+ ge++ 3i+ jt-- jd++ pi au st- ls kk hi++ dr++ as+
va+ so- zh+ da++ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:25:44 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Leszek Karlik, Where Are You?

Apologies for this personal message but...

Leszek, I tried to email you the Traveller JPGs you
requested and received the following:

"Remote-MTA: DNS; friko4.onet.pl
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 <trrkt@friko4.onet.pl>... User unknown"

Do you have another email address I can send to?

- -- 
Sir Daven Hevelin, Order of Sylea
(aka David.Smart@ons.octel.com)
Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
CEO - Security Merchants, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:35:34 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Leszek Karlik, Where Are You?

I would like some Traveller JPGs.


warlock@imagin.net wrote:

> Apologies for this personal message but...
>
> Leszek, I tried to email you the Traveller JPGs you
> requested and received the following:
>
> "Remote-MTA: DNS; friko4.onet.pl
> Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 <trrkt@friko4.onet.pl>... User unknown"
>
> Do you have another email address I can send to?
>
> --
> Sir Daven Hevelin, Order of Sylea
> (aka David.Smart@ons.octel.com)
> Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
> CEO - Security Merchants, Inc.



- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:08:44 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: More Assorted

a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz Saith:

> I'm more interested in the origins of Remulak (solomani rim 1833) :*>

U...it's...er...uh...it;s a town in Fra-a-nce. 

Meps! Meps!

Loren

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 98 15:04:17 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: More Assorted

On 04/11/98 at 02:08 PM,  GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com> said:

>> I'm more interested in the origins of Remulak (solomani rim 1833) :*>

>U...it's...er...uh...it;s a town in Fra-a-nce. 

>Meps! Meps!

We will now, consume mass quantities!


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:17:21 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: TNE Hivers

> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
>
>   IIRC, CT Hivers required keyboard/screen combos to convert
> their finger wriggling language to spoken commo.
> 
>   Did TNE have a new or improved technique for same?

Nope, it stayed the same.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:35:50 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Purchasing your McDonnell Douglas Aircraft

> From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
>
> I want start out by saying that the following brief diatribe is not
> aimed at Evyn, but rather at the original author of the "Thank-you
> letter."

Why aim the diatribe at anyone at all?

> Not true.  This is one of *thousands* of urban myths.  I am *personally*
> aware of it existing as far back as 1983.  Further, whoever created it
> clearly has very little actual knowledge about the U.S. military air
> defense industry.  Specifically:

I suspected as much the first time I heard of it.  It has been going
through a resurgance recently, and one of the people on the MacDonnell
Douglas may have posted it recently because they found it funny.

And it's not an urban myth, in this case, it's *xerox-lore*. :^)  Properly,
urban legends are spread by word of mouth, they are oral traditions.

> Sheesh.  Five minutes of lousy research is all it would have taken. :^/

Just because only one of the planes was manufactured by MacDonnell Douglas
doesn't mean that one of the employees there didn't post it on a website
there :^)

My point is, who cares if it really _was_ posted onto the MacDonnell
Douglas website or not?  It's damned funny, and that's the point.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:49:28 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Uniforms II (Long!)

At 03:37 PM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Does any know what the medals for the imperrium look like?

IMTU, the standards are as follows:

(note, ASCII art done in 10pt Courier New)

Combat Service Ribbons.  The Imperium awards a medal for participation in a
campaign.  The Navy decides what constitutes a campaign.  For example, the
entire Fifth Frontier War was a single campaign, with a single award.
Participation in a significant battle gives the wearer the right to attach
a small plate to the ribbon with the name of the incident.  For example,
CPO Davis served in the Firth Frontier War.  He was present for the defense
of Efate, the Battle of Rhylanor, and the assault on Jewell.  His award
would look some thing like this:

**************
*            *
**************
 |          |
 |  EFATE   |    <----  Battle streamer for Efate
 |          |
 | RHYLANOR |    <----  Rhylanor
 |          |
 |  JEWELL  |    <----  Jewell
 |          |
 \         /
  \       /
   ******
  *      *
 *        *    <----  Firth Frontier War Medal
 *        *
  *      *
   ******

Valor decorations are awarded in three categories.  Basic (1-4th award),
Swords (5-9 awards), and Diamonds (10 or more awards).  A Marine who has
won the medal for conspicuous gallantry six times would be said to hold the
MCG with Swords.  He would only wear a single medal.

*****************
*               *
*****************
\     \         /
 \     \       /
  \     \     /
   \     \   /
    \     \ /
     \     \
     *******
      *   *
     *******
    *       *
   *         *
   *         *
   *         *
    *       *
     *******

The Starburst For Extreme Heroism is a six-pointed starburst done in
silver.  At the center of the burst is the Imperial sun, done in the
correct color for the recipients branch.  Navy=Yellow, Scouts, red, Army
Black, etc..).  The award is worn on an inch wide ribbon around the neck.
The ribbon is deep blue.

Wound Awards are given to any service member who is injured as the direct
result of enemy action.  It is a pin worn on the uniform blouse, and comes
in three grades: Bronze (1-4 awards), Silver (5-8) and Gold (9 or more).
The Gold Wound Award is sometimes called the Expert Target Badge.

I'm basing these ideas on a whole bunch of different sources.  The campaign
medals are British.  I have my great-Grandfather's medals, which are done
in this style.  The medals for valor are based on the German pracice of
issuing higher categories of the same award.  I prefer the term wound award
to Purple Heart, so I've changed it here.

Once I get a decent drawing prog, I'll do these up right for my pages.

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:40:40 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fusion (was Re: Pillaging worlds)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Peter H. Brenton <pbrenton@mit.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, April 09, 1998 1:41 PM
Subject: Fusion (was Re: Pillaging worlds)



>>There is a fusion reaction (T-T, I think) which
>>produces mostly electrons.  If you collected this in a big metal plate
>>and pulsed your reaction at 60Hz you'd have direct conversion.
>
>The problem, in Magnetic Containment fusion, is that electrons, being
>positively charged, cannot escape the magnetic containment bottle (or
>torus, more accurately).  Neutrons do escape, and are very energetic when
>they do.  Current designs (or maybe near future ones; I'm not quite sure)
>have a "Lithium Blanket" which, I think, will help to collect some of the
>energy from the neutrons, perhaps to breed more tritium for the reactor.
>All this is now more fuzzy than I thought it would be (Hey! I'm a
>bookkeeper, not a physicist!).


The only direct conversion fusion experiment that I know of (Although I
believe their are others) is Electrostatic Inertial Confinement Fusion.
This device has two electrodes which act to force the positive ions and
negative electrons into the core of the spherical device.  The anode and
cathode are both spherical, with the cathode being smaller and porous
(i.e. - a grid) placed inside the anode.

Once breakeven is exceeded, the excess power produced by the reaction
is siphoned off the cathode.

<SPECULATION>
This device architecture has it's own problems which may keep it from
ever achieving breakeven.  The thing that I really like about it though
is that a full size containment core has been predicted to be about 1meter
in diameter.  The device is also inherently stable as well.  When you turn
on the power to start the device it comes on in a matter of seconds and
stays
on until either the fuel runs out, or the switch is shut off.  Once the
device actually achieves breakeven (if ever), it would seem that the only
way
to turn off the device is to place a large current load across the output.
</SPECULATION>

I like the architecture and simplicity of a spherical device.  I like it
so much that it is the method that is used IMTU.

Eric

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #386
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 12 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 387



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Squadrons
Re: Imperium
Sector Maps
Re: Uniforms II (Long!)
THUDDD ('bout time...)
Re: THUDDD ('bout time...)
Re:Gal M:0 File
Re: Starships in GURPS Traveller...
Re: Uniforms II (Long!)
Re: Uniforms II (Long!)
Re: Uniforms II (Long!)
Re: Uniforms II (Long!)
Re: Space  Travel, RL
Re: Supertankers, etc.
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)
Hiver language translation (and grav belt controls)
FLASH FLASH FLASH: Traveller Auction
Re: Supertankers, etc.
Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)
IMTU
Re: IMTU
Traveller Observations on Lost In Space movie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 00:23:16 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Squadrons

> As I recall, when you design a squadron, tech
> level has an impact on the squadron's factors.

So there is ... I'd missed it becase the examples given (TL D) have no TL 
modifier.  There is also a TL effect on the total number of squadrons you 
get - roughly a third extra squadrons for each 4 TL superiority.

These two features taken together give around the right sort of TL 
advantage, but I would still prefer to see a straight Cr-based method of 
determining how much a squadron costs and then adjusting the combat 
results for TL.   I guess i always like to fiddle with the rules to make 
them fit my perception of a Sci-Fi universe.

Interestinly, I have been reading several of David Weber's excellent 
"Honor Harrington" books.  In that universe, TL effects work pretty much 
as they do in Imperial Squadrons.

Grayson = moderate POP (8) , moderate TL (A)
BatRon = 5 DF / 2 AF / 1 BF / 1 JMP

Manticore = hi POP (9), good TL (D)
CruRon AF = 7 DF / 3 AF / 2 BF / 2 JMP

The Grayson "Battleships" are smaller than the Cruisers from Manticore in 
the books, and that is how they work out in Imperial Squadrons.

The Manticore CruRon can take on nearly 2 Grayson BatRons (again, both in 
IS and in the Harrington books).  

Perhaps I like the IS system after all :-)

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 00:23:29 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperium

There were some errata published for the 1977 version which I have:
 
Sequence of play, Imperial maintenance and Production (clarification):
Income
Production & Imperial replacement
Imperial Attention
Apeals to the Emperor
Maintain Old ships
Purchase new ships
 
Ships that are in a Tertiary hex, with a tanker, are considered to be 
fuelled and may break off combat as long as the (friendly) tanker is 
present at the beginning of the combat phase.
 
Combat: immediately after range is determined termination of combat is 
determined.  the attacker first must announce if he is breaking off or 
remaining to attack.  then the defender declares.  It is possible for 
both sides to break-off, inwhich case no side fires.
 
Terminating Combat: break-off may be to more than one system, if 
desired.  If multiple destinations are used, all must be of equal 
priority
 
Terminating combat: Ships that are not able to break off (such as 
monitors and fighters not in motherships) may not fire in the round 
that their forces retreat, but may do so in subsequent rounds.
 
Planetary bombardment: only ships that did not use high-intensity 
missile fire may participate.
 
Planetray defense fire: ships that both bombard and attempt a landing 
are attacked twice by each world, outpost or planetary defence marker.
 
Fighters: fighters may use capital ships as a base.  Each capital ship 
counter (M, B, B1, B2, BB) can support one fighter unit.  Fighters not 
inside a mothership cannot retreat from combat, but must remain.  At 
the conclusion of space combat sub-phase, all fighters without a base 
are eliminated (they run out of fuel).
 
Economics (Terran):  A world is connected to Sol for income purposes 
only if the path contains no empty systems, other than tertiary hexes.
 
Economics (Imperial): A world is considered connect for the initial 
set-up if it can trace a path to Gashida, the path must contain no 
empty systems, other than tertiary hexes.
 
Recover from disruption: disrupted ships do not get a dice modifier for 
being at a friendly outpost.
 
Ship production: monitors may only be placed in space, never on a 
planet surface.
 
Imperial replacements: these appear through Ishkur, Dingir, Kinunir or 
Gashida.
 
Victory levels (clarification):
Turn   Win   lose
 4     9     1
 5     8     2
 6     7     3
 7     6     4
 8     -     5
 
Appeals to the emperor: these may not be attempted if they would reduce 
the glory to or below the "lose" level.  i.e glory 0 on turns 1 to 3, 
glory 1 on turn 4, etc.
 
Territorial exchange (outposts):  A tenable path may contain empty 
systems (i.e with neither world nor outpost), unlike a connected path.
 
Territaoral exchange: if a binary stellar hex is occupied by both terra 
and the Imperium, then the hex is considered tenable by both sides.  
However, players may wish to agree to a "mutual withdrawl" in which 
case both outposts are removed from play.  Note that worlds are always 
tenable. 
 
Starting the first war: For the initial set-up (only) all worlds and 
outposts must be connected to Gashida.
 
Terraforming: If there is always an outpost present, past turns of 
terrforming are not lost.  Thus it is possible for a world to be 
terraformed alternately by Imperial and Terran players, with only 50 
total turns (150 RU) required.  Each turn 3 RU is not spent will "undo" 
one D6 worth of terraforming turns.
 
===============
One of the nice things about the errata is that the Imperial set up is 
restricted so that all the ouposts and worlds must be connected to 
Gashida.  The Imperial set up can include Procyon (plus Ys and Sarpedon 
if you want), but at the risk of exposing the left side of the board to 
terran expansion.  This is one of may favorite "high risk" strategies 
as it takes the fight right to the Terrans while allowing them to 
expand to the rich worlds on the lower left of the board.  This set up 
gives a very different game to the usual bottlenecks of Nusku/Dushaam 
and Sirius.  The drawback for the Imperial player is that the outposts 
"beyond" Sirius do not generate income on the first turn, unless his 
reaction ships happen to place a tanker there <evil grin> during the 
Terran's first turn.
 
======================
> with hard map-boards deleted the third star w/o a
> system box (near Apishal/Zaggisi) IIRC, but I can check that.
 
Altair is still there on my hard board version.
 
 
 
Simon
Imperium and Traveller fan
 
 
 

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:16:19 -0400
From: John Toth <jtoth@erols.com>
Subject: Sector Maps

Does any one have / Know where there is the Dark Nebula sector data for Jim
Vassilakos's wonderful Gal Program?

Any other sectors will be happily accepted.

John

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:19:52 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Uniforms II (Long!)

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> At 03:37 PM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >Does any know what the medals for the imperrium look like?
>
> IMTU, the standards are as follows:
>
> Combat Service Ribbons.  The Imperium awards a medal for participation in a
> campaign.  The Navy decides what constitutes a campaign.  For example, the
> entire Fifth Frontier War was a single campaign, with a single award.
> Participation in a significant battle gives the wearer the right to attach
> a small plate to the ribbon with the name of the incident.  For example,

What would the smaller version look like then?  I mean the rectangle that goes
on the left breast of uniform jackets, at least in US, where the medal is not
present, just a rectangle of the ribbon but clusters and stars etc. are
attached.  Would you have separate small ribbons for each plate when you're not
wearing the full medal?

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:42:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD ('bout time...)

At long last, the THUDDD 8 (Subsidized Merchant) results and the THUDDD 9
(Lab Ship) RFP are on the web, at the usual THUDDD site:

  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html

Since I was so tardy getting the T9 RFP online, I'm extending the entry
deadline until midnight PDT Tuesday 4/14.  So, let's have some more
entries!  (Kenji, I believe you had some new Sayat abomination up your
sleeve for this one...?)

Also, as part of the refreshing "back to the LBBs" CT fundamentalism
currently sweeping the TML, I'm pleased to announce that THUDDD 10 will be
a TL15 Intruder Escort, ca. 20 kdt.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:23:47 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: THUDDD ('bout time...)

Craig Berry wrote:

> At long last, the THUDDD 8 (Subsidized Merchant) results and the THUDDD 9
> (Lab Ship) RFP are on the web, at the usual THUDDD site:
>
>   http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html
>
> Since I was so tardy getting the T9 RFP online, I'm extending the entry
> deadline until midnight PDT Tuesday 4/14.

That's a relief... just like taxes, I've been putting this off :-)Actually,
I've been having some difficulty with SSDS SAL but I think its working now.
One question though.  Can we just  append our name and firm to the output HTML
from SSDS?  Or do we need more formatting (lynx compatability, etc.)?

> So, let's have some more
> entries!  (Kenji, I believe you had some new Sayat abomination up your
> sleeve for this one...?)
>

If Kenji doesn't, I've got one... but it isn't exactly what you'd call
efficient... and sophontological analysis has a slightly different meaning...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:37:33 -0700
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re:Gal M:0 File

Thanks to CommanderX and Micheal Koehne for their assistance in getting
me this file.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:34:37 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Starships in GURPS Traveller...

I posted some comments to the lists about my implimentation of
a star ship advantage in actual play.  I sent the comments to some
players and this is one of their comments...

>> Another player wanted an Aslan Seeker (which is Jump-2 and, IIRC,
>> has Free Trader type cargo capacity).  I think I charged him 60
>> points based on the potential income and it was worth every
>> penny.  He made a killing with a speculative cargo and ended
>> up with millions.
>
>I think the seeker has a bit less cargo capacity (to make room for the
>larger engineering section), but they both can hold several tens of tons of
>cargo so the practical difference is negligable.  The game-balance issue is
>that the Aslan background specifies that Aslan ex-prospectors own their
>ships outright with no mortgage or other encumberances.
>
>I think the most GURPS-like way to handle the cargo hold is to use it as an
>excuse to buy wealth, and to use an appropriate job table to see how much
>more/less than average the character earns each month.  In the original
>Traveller, virtually everyone with a Free Trader had a big mortgage.
>Without that mortgage, anyone with an equivalent cargo capacity will become
>cash-rich; they're essentially exchanging depreciation of the ship (an
>extremely valuable asset for an adventurer) for cash.  In GURPS terms, the
>characters should pay for the resulting Wealth, or have an in-game reason
>why they aren't able to use the income freely.
>
>Just knowing that an aging ship needs more maintenance might be enough, if
>the character is the type who won't raid his/her own "new engine fund" to
>cover adventuring expenses.  The problem is that it's easy to raid a 10MCr
>fund for 10kCr in adventuring expenses.  That's a *lot* of money for an
>adventurer to be throwing around, but it has a negligable effect on the
>enormous nest egg the character is assumed to have been accumulating.
>
>Also, I see little difference in game terms between having a new 40-year
>mortgage and a 40-year mortgage with only 10 years left on it.  Either way,
>you have the same payments, and thus the same cost of doing business.  I
>think the most GURPS-like way to handle the mortgage is to buy insane
>levels of wealth once the mortgage is paid off.
>
>One other alternative is your approach, where you assign a point cost based
>on your perceived value of the cargo hold, and conduct detailed trading
>when opportunty arises during an adventure.  But in this case, the real
>value of the cargo hold depends on how much game time the player can spend
>carrying cargo and investing in speculative trade goods during their
>adventuring.  If players trade too much, then they get (far) more than they
>paid for.  If they trade too little, then they get little benefit for the
>points they spent.
>
>Another alternative is to ignore the economic value of the cargo hold, but
>that means ignoring in-game trading too.
>
>Darin McGrew

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:36:37 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Uniforms II (Long!)

At 09:19 PM 4/11/98 -0400, you wrote:

>What would the smaller version look like then?  I mean the rectangle that
>goes on the left breast of uniform jackets, at least in US, where the
medal >is not present, just a rectangle of the ribbon but clusters and
stars etc. >are attached.  Would you have separate small ribbons for each
plate when >you're not wearing the full medal?

I don't use the fruit salad IMTU.  If you are dressed up enough for awards,
were the things!  Remember, your avarage Marine Sergeant with eight years
service might have two or three campaign ribbons, and one of two valor medals.

If wanted, you could do a ribbon based on the pattern of the medal's full
supporting ribbon (this is how it's done for US forces.)  Possibly with
small metal dots or studs for each banner earned. It's the Reader's Digest
version, you know he was there, and got into some interesting scraps, but
not the details.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 06:50:35 +0100
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Uniforms II (Long!)

The medals could be represented by one electronic
device.  A small holographic projector which displays
all the appropriate medals.  



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:23:44 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Uniforms II (Long!)

At 06:50 AM 4/12/98 +0100, you wrote:
>The medals could be represented by one electronic
>device.  A small holographic projector which displays
>all the appropriate medals.  

I don't know... part of the joy of getting them is having the thing pinned
on, and beiong able to hold it.  In a military enviroment, where good work
pften goes unnoticed, solid feedback is appreciated.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:58:35 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Uniforms II (Long!)

At 09:19 PM 11/04/98 -0400, Steve Daniels wrote:

>dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>
>> At 03:37 PM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> >Does any know what the medals for the imperrium look like?
>>
>> IMTU, the standards are as follows:
>>
>> Combat Service Ribbons.  The Imperium awards a medal for participation in a
>> campaign.  The Navy decides what constitutes a campaign.  For example, the
>> entire Fifth Frontier War was a single campaign, with a single award.
>> Participation in a significant battle gives the wearer the right to attach
>> a small plate to the ribbon with the name of the incident.  For example,
>
>What would the smaller version look like then?  I mean the rectangle that
goes
>on the left breast of uniform jackets, at least in US, where the medal is not
>present, just a rectangle of the ribbon but clusters and stars etc. are
>attached.  Would you have separate small ribbons for each plate when
you're not
>wearing the full medal?

Those little coloured squares seem to be peculiar to the US. Certainly
militaries decended from the British don't use them. To us they were just
another reason to laugh at dumb Yanks. 

Nothing quite like being in a small, impoverished military to encourage the
finding of reasons to make fun of your richer friends. Besides they get
given out for the dumbest things. In NZ you get a ribbon/medal for being in
a campaign or peacekeeping mission, you should get one for long service
after 12 years, and other than that it's pretty much only bravery that'll
get you anything.

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 00:47:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Space  Travel, RL

In mail you write:

>
>>The most criminal of all such acts however was the abandonment of the NERVA
>>rocket engine. If they had put such devices in orbit we'd be on mars by
>>now. The main reason for not doing long manned flights is the pesky Isp of
>>chemical engines.
>
> That's somewhat of an overstatement; NERVA wasn't that much higher
> ISP than modern chemical rockets. Take a look at FFS2 - the lowest-tech 
> solid NTR is basically NERVA.

Better recheck your sources. The "full up" unit that was the last one
tested was essentially identical to what would have been flown except
for the way things were arranged, had an Isp of well over 700. That's
almost *double* the best chemical rockets.

Remember, double the Isp means that you only need to haul half as much
fuel around. And for "multi-stage" situations, the advantage goes up
exponentially. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:06:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.

In mail you write:

> One final point on close-orbit -vs- 100 diameters. Marc has said (on HIWG?)
> that a ship comes into orbit from jump at 100 diameters roughly along a
> line between the two masses it is jumping between. If you put a station up
> at 100 diameters it is going to have to be in orbit around the mass.
> Because of its orbit, the planetary orbit, etc, etc, it is essentially
> random _where_ a ship might come it along the 100 diameter radius and where
> you might place the station. On average it is going to be 3 times further
> away (?) than a station in low-orbit.

Which merely means that you need three or more stations. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:22:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

In mail you write:

> This is why people ask questions.  When a situation arises when
> the AI is unsure of why something was to be done, it should ask
> questions of it's superior.  In this way the exception can be 
> handled and the AI can also find out if it should make these 
> exceptions automatically, or whether it should just forget 
> about the incident without adding the rule to it's rulebase.

You misunderstand. The AI may be *wrong*, but it's not *uncertain*. I'm
sure you've been in that situation at least once in your life. :-)

And due to the *way* AIs learn, every time you give ioner an
instruction you are potentially modifying the rulebase. To know enough
to ask questions *after* it is given a "reason" for the exception
requires data/experience which the AI *won't have*.

That's the difference between *most* people and an AI or expert system.
We have "irrelevant" knowldege that makes us go "Hey, wait a second!" 
All the AI has is what it's been taught.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:11:31 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Hiver language translation (and grav belt controls)

Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:17:21 -0400  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:

>>   IIRC, CT Hivers required keyboard/screen combos to convert
>> their finger wriggling language to spoken commo.
>> 
>>   Did TNE have a new or improved technique for same?
>
>Nope, it stayed the same.

Well, IMTU things are a little different. Why use a keyboard when you can just speak to your translator?

The Language Translator as specified in WBH p. 28 can translate from one spoken sentence to another. I'd say it should be pretty simple to produce an add-on to the Language Translator that translates spoken words to Hiver 'language' and vice-versa.

This reminds me of another arrangement, that strikes me as odd: In the Travellers' Digest #6, grav belts are described as controlled be a special mouthpiece or stud/joystick controlled by the chin. These seems to me to be clunky interfaces, considering other Traveller technology. IMTU, grav belts have always been controlled by a combination of Data/Display Headsets and voice control. Much more elegant, IMHO.

This touches on the subject of Traveller technology 'canon'. Personally, I keep any canon technology where a change would alter the structure of the universe (e.g. Jumps take one week, and it's not possible to change that fact), but change insignificant technologies if they don't make sense.

The above mentioned are two examples. For me, it doesn't make sense to use a keyboard for translation, when you can just talk. We're not even touching upon the subject of Traveller technology versus real world technology here; voice/speech recognition is possible in the Traveller universe, so why not make use of it?

BTW - remember: Language Translators are imprecise at best. For more reliable automated language translation, use a sofisticated translator robot (e.g. the TL 15 Shageder, as detailed on http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann/shageder.htm )

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:56:28 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: FLASH FLASH FLASH: Traveller Auction

A Traveller auction is in progress on the following newsgroup:

rec.games.frp.marketplace

Look for posts by "One Eye". I don't know this person personally
but it seems to be an online store and has DGP MegaTraveller
Journals available, including #3! #3 has the full Deneb sector
map in it, I believe. There is also some CT booklets currently
going dirt cheap.

Just an FYI for you collectors (I already have them or I'd be
bidding).

- -- 
Sir Daven Hevelin, Order of Sylea
Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
CEO - Security Merchants, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:48:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc.

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > One final point on close-orbit -vs- 100 diameters. Marc has said (on HIWG?)
> > that a ship comes into orbit from jump at 100 diameters roughly along a
> > line between the two masses it is jumping between. If you put a station up
> > at 100 diameters it is going to have to be in orbit around the mass.
> > Because of its orbit, the planetary orbit, etc, etc, it is essentially
> > random _where_ a ship might come it along the 100 diameter radius and where
> > you might place the station. On average it is going to be 3 times further
> > away (?) than a station in low-orbit.
> 
> Which merely means that you need three or more stations. :-)

Also, it's a lot easier to get somewhere in the same orbit than it is
to get out of a gravity well.  A ship in low orbit may be closer than
one in the 100 diamter orbit on the other side of the planet, but not
necessarily quicker or easier to get there.  Though with up to 6g
continuous thrust, that's not going to be a big problem...

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:50:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence (was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #320)

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> That's the difference between *most* people and an AI or expert system.
> We have "irrelevant" knowldege that makes us go "Hey, wait a second!" 
> All the AI has is what it's been taught.

There's a project going on right now to teach an AI a lot of irrelevant
things.  They've been working on it for years teaching it everything
they can think of, *not* what's relevant for any particular task.  I
believe they've been testing it by having it recognize parts of
photographs.  If anyone knows more about this, I'd be interested in
seeing some more info...

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:57:19 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: IMTU

What does IMTU mean?

- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:09:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Taylor <izzylobo@faerealm.faerealm.com>
Subject: Re: IMTU

Robert wrote;
>What does IMTU mean?

In My Traveller Universe; basically an acronym delineating that something
is an GM's interpretation of "Canon", and not necessarily something found
in any actual printed material.

Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have Mac (2400c!), Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:25:01 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Traveller Observations on Lost In Space movie

Saw the Lost In Space movie on Saturday. I won't go into a movie review
beyond observing that if you have a warm spot in your heart for the series,
you will most likely enjoy the movie (especially a couple of things Major
West does to Doctor Smith, and a rather interesting lecture that Maureen
delivers to John and Major West). If you didn't like the series, well, the
special effects are at least are as good as anything recent on the big
screen for SF.  Storylinewise, we have a retelling of 'Reluctant Stowaway',
'The Derelict' and 'Blast off into Space' episodes.

Traveller Observations:

*Danger* Non Imperium Setting! *Danger* Non Imperium Setting!
*Danger* Non Imperium Setting! *Danger* Non Imperium Setting!

Constructing a 'Lost In Space' type adventure will be easier for
Traveller:TNE than for Classic, MT or T4. The FTL drive mechanism implied in
the movie follows the FFS/1 Wormhole and Stargate format more than standard
Traveller Jump Drives. 

Based on comments from the dialogue, traversing Hyperspace without an
external gate on both ends of the trip is an exercise in intentional mis
jumping. A ship sized Hyperspace engine exists, but no means exists for
controlling the exit point of the jump at the time of the entry. In this
case, an anlogy to a Keyhole drive can be made, where the external keyhole
into a wormhole can be made, but once in, you can't make an internal keyhole
to get out, you  must proceed to where ever the wormhole naturally exits
back into normal space. The solution to this randomness is to externally
create keyholes by Hypergates, allowing you to enter and exit the wormhole.
This also fits with the Closed Door & Semi Permanent Drilled Wormhole types
of stargates described in FFS/1. When using this technology to get from star
to star, you pick a target star, setup a sleeper ship to carry a crew and
equipment to the target star, and, after a few decades, should have a
Hypergate built in that system to match one in your origin system so that
travel can now be instanteous between the systems. There is no interving
travel time or space ala B5 gates.

Militarily this will make gates very critical choke points. Destroy a gate
and you shut a system off from the rest of civilization until a new one is
built. A long night could very, very quickly be created by a band of
terrorists that manage to blowup multiple gates in a short time, depending
on where critical gate components are manufactured.  

Surprise attacks become very difficult. If you come thru the gate, odds are
the target system knows you are comming. If you don't, you need to plan the
attack decades in advance and send your troops off in sleeper ships.  This
can lead to the scenario where a task force launched decades ago finally
reaches a target long after the war is over.  Vaguely recall a ST:TNG
episode about a Klingon crusier returning after decades in deep space, with
orders for a sneak attack on the Federation, totally unaware that peace had
been made. 
 
There is no mention of a minimum distance from a mass before engaging.

Other techonlogy observations:

Gravitic technology: small objects can 'float', larger objects still require
reaction type engines. The Jupiter Launch Vehicle demonstrates impressive
reaction thrust to launch. The space fighters also show reaction engines for
manuver. References are made several places to 'Fusion' engines, assume to
mean HEPLAR. 

Robotics: Most robots shown are large, using treads as mobility. Assumption
is that robots are capable of handling self contained AI as operating
system, with external overrides by humans. Alien life is silicon based, but
still living, not contstructed, so does not count as 'robotic'. 

Communications and Computers: Extensive use of Holographics in
communications and in computer control and remote equipment operation.
Offline storage media appear to be little different than current CDs. No
crystal matrix chips.

Weapons. Electric discharge units to provide 'stunning'. Pistols are bulky,
could either be laser or small plasma. Body armor is retractable though no
visible means, so no anlogy to traveller tech is possible. Seems to be a
borrow from the 'Batman' movies.


That's about all I can think of now. If they novelize the movie (about as
likely as rain during the monsoon season), I think I will pick it up to see
if the chosen writer wishes to expand on any of the techology subjects.

Garry


    



      

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #387
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 13 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 388



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Uniforms II (Long!)
Re: IMTU
Re: Uniforms II (Long!)
Modern Space Economics & History
Repair Cost (non-Traveller)
Re: Traveller Observations on Lost In Space movie
Re: Uniforms II (Long!)
T4.1 Trade and Commerce errata
Re: Uniforms II (Long!)
Re: IMTU
Re: Hiver language translation
Re: Traveller Observations on Lost In Space movie
Re: Traveller Observations on Lost In Space movie
Chirpers
Re: Supertankers, etc. 
PBEM's
Sensors and Tracking Weapons
Re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons
Re: PBEM's
Re: Chirpers
Re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons
Re: Chirpers 
Re: Purchasing your McDonnell Douglas Aircraft
Re: Leszek Karlik, Where Are You?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:08:10 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Uniforms II (Long!)

At 07:58 PM 4/12/98 +1200, you wrote:

>Those little coloured squares seem to be peculiar to the US. Certainly
>militaries decended from the British don't use them. To us they were just
>another reason to laugh at dumb Yanks. 

Are you sure?  I've seen British Army wearing ribbons before.

>Nothing quite like being in a small, impoverished military to encourage the
>finding of reasons to make fun of your richer friends. Besides they get
>given out for the dumbest things. In NZ you get a ribbon/medal for being in
>a campaign or peacekeeping mission, you should get one for long service
>after 12 years, and other than that it's pretty much only bravery that'll
>get you anything.

Yeah, well the US Army is notorious for award medals for anything.  One of
my favorite Bill Maudlin cartoon has Willie and Joe staring in rapt
fascination at a rear area MP's ribbons while he patiently explains what
they all mean.

Hell, I got an Army Commendation Medal during training!  I even received an
Army Achievement Medal for maxing the test for the Field Hygiene &
Sanitation NCO Course.  I'm not kidding.

That's why I went with the British and German models, to make the uniforms
a bit cleaner.

- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:34:30 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: IMTU

At 01:09 PM 4/12/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Robert wrote;
>>What does IMTU mean?
>
>In My Traveller Universe; basically an acronym delineating that something
>is an GM's interpretation of "Canon", and not necessarily something found
>in any actual printed material.

It can also be used for describing some aspect of the Traveller universe
that hasn't been fleshed out, like the uniforms questions.
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:39:24 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Uniforms II (Long!)

At 10:08 AM 12/04/98 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 07:58 PM 4/12/98 +1200, you wrote:
>
>>Those little coloured squares seem to be peculiar to the US. Certainly
>>militaries decended from the British don't use them. To us they were just
>>another reason to laugh at dumb Yanks. 
>
>Are you sure?  I've seen British Army wearing ribbons before.

Actually, now that you mention it, and after a good night's sleep, yes we
do use them. From what I saw they're worn with Service Dress (a variant on
WWII field dress, and now used as a dress uniform for all but the most
formal occaisions), and even then a lot of soldiers with medals for thins
above long service and campaigns prefer to use the full medals. The most
beribboned officer I ever saw served in Vietnam, and in a lot of UN
peacekeeping during the twenty years following. One reason he had so many
awards was that in NZ you can wear non-commonwealth ribbons on the right
breast, opposite your commonwealth ones, and he a quite a lot of ribbons
from the countries he'd served in.

>Hell, I got an Army Commendation Medal during training!  I even received an
>Army Achievement Medal for maxing the test for the Field Hygiene &
>Sanitation NCO Course.  I'm not kidding.

In the peacetime NZ Army the only medal an enlisted soldier can look
forward to is the Long Service Medal, and you have to be in for twelve
years (I think, it might be only ten) and have a fairly clean record to be
eligible. The officers have a similar award, but I think they only need ten
years service to it. A few senior NCOs and some officers get to go on UN
peacekeeping, and they'll get campaign medals for that. 

- -- 
- ----------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North
New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:01:49 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Modern Space Economics & History

Oddly enough, if you look at the early history of both steamships and rail
you'll see that neither of these businesses were terribly profitable. The
majority of steamship companies went bankrupt, often spectacularly so.
Ditto with railroads. This left the private investors out-of-pocket, while
the entrepeneur started another company.

Modern society is less tolerant of bankrupcies, and expects the government
to chip in and pay everyone off, which drives up government deficits and
taxes.  Mind you, modern society seems to take it for granted that debts
must be paid -- when the most prosperous periods of France, Britain, and
America were fueled by defaulted loans.  

ObTrav: If you're basing your Traveller campaign on the mercantilist
period of Terran history (from which Marc drew a lot of inspiration,
especially for the trade system), then you should at least consider
borrowing the social elements as well. Moneylenders, for example, were
regarded as a necessary evil and certainly not respectable company, and
defaulting on a loan was not a permanent social or diplomatic stigma. 
There were no safe investments: spectacular profits or total loss were
both real possibilities. 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:53:48 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Repair Cost (non-Traveller)

Well, I've discovered that the Casseopia Handheld PC can't survive a drop
of a foot :-(

Does anyone know what I should reasonably expect to get the cracked screen
of my new birthday present replaced? The unit is still under warranty
(although it explicitly says that dropping it constitutes 'abuse', so that
probably won't do me much good).

Please reply to me privately. I'm only posting the request here because
the TML is such as vast store of information...


ObTrav: Well, my players make a lot of use of protable electronics. Now
I'm going to add a 'butterfingers' roll against dexterity, especially at
functions with lots of small children, to avoid dropping something
important. Makes paying for milspec equipment a bit more attractive, even
if it does weigh more!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:25:11 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller Observations on Lost In Space movie

Garry Ward wrote:

> Traveller Observations:
> 
> *Danger* Non Imperium Setting! *Danger* Non Imperium Setting!
> *Danger* Non Imperium Setting! *Danger* Non Imperium Setting!
> 
> Constructing a 'Lost In Space' type adventure will be easier for
> Traveller:TNE than for Classic, MT or T4. The FTL drive mechanism implied in
> the movie follows the FFS/1 Wormhole and Stargate format more than standard
> Traveller Jump Drives.
Why, i have at least one Wormhole IMTU. It leads from an empty hex (with sun though) in
Regina subsector to another empty hex in the Solomani Rim (Imperial SpacE)
Both are guarded by extremely secret task forces (even those aboard dont know where
they are). Both hexes additionally are extrem navigational hazards, so the Wormholes
arehard to find. Lastly, the largest size that can be safely transported is 10, so
jump-capable ships cant pass (no JTs IMTU). This way, it cant change Imperial history
to have these holes as the SM and SR are approx. the same distance from Core. I used to
transport my campaign from the SR to the SM once. Great fun!
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:29:05 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Uniforms II (Long!)

dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> At 07:58 PM 4/12/98 +1200, you wrote:
> 
> >Those little coloured squares seem to be peculiar to the US. Certainly
> >militaries decended from the British don't use them. To us they were just
> >another reason to laugh at dumb Yanks.
> 
> Are you sure?  I've seen British Army wearing ribbons before.
German military also has these bars with these squares. However, as the German Military
doesnt have this many medals anymore, and out of area missions are fairly recent as
well (and most dont have medals either), most officers have only one bar.
Looks like:
          -----------------------------
          ! !   !  !   !   !   !   !  !<-Various lenths and color, depending on the
meaning
          -----------------------------

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:42:56 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: T4.1 Trade and Commerce errata

I was just looking at the Trade and Commerce sheet that Marc graciously
provided for me. There are a few things that I feel need correction:

1. The chart entitled Market Price for Cargo has no values in it.
2. The DMs for Marketworld section lists the modifiers you apply to the
rolls for passengers and freight. It says "If Population 8-, +3".
Shouldn't
this be "If Population 8+, +3"?
3. Looking at the chart entitled "Freight and Cargo", at the top of the
page, it is unclear which column applies to cargo. Unless I'm mistaken,
cargo isn't divided into major, minor and incidental categories, like
freight
is.

Naturally, comments are welcome.

- --
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:23:04 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Uniforms II (Long!)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Uniforms II (Long!)


>At 09:19 PM 11/04/98 -0400, Steve Daniels wrote:
>
>>dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>>
>>> At 03:37 PM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>> >Does any know what the medals for the imperrium look like?
>>>
>>> IMTU, the standards are as follows:
>>
>>What would the smaller version look like then?  I mean the rectangle that
>goes
>>on the left breast of uniform jackets, at least in US, where the medal is
not
>>present, just a rectangle of the ribbon but clusters and stars etc. are
>>attached.  Would you have separate small ribbons for each plate when
>you're not
>>wearing the full medal?
>
>Those little coloured squares seem to be peculiar to the US. Certainly
>militaries decended from the British don't use them. To us they were just
>another reason to laugh at dumb Yanks.
>
>Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>Palmerston North
>New Zealand


Hhhmmm,  I know that the U.K. forces I served with in Berlin certainly used
the little rectangles of cloth that represent the full medal.  They are
called "ribbons" and have a smaller attachment (but identical) that is used
to represent multiple or specific awards.  These are worn on "Dress"
uniforms when worn day to day as your duty uniform.  IIRC the German armed
forces did the same thing as the others.  Hell even the police in Boston
just wear the representative ribbons and not the full decoration/medal.

In the U.S. Army the actual medals are almost never worn.  Really formal
occasions you wear a "miniature" in lieu of the full size so that you don't
clank so much or walk around lop sided.  The U.S. uses campaign stars on the
combat ribbons.  These are small five pointed bronze stars that attach to
the ribbon.  I received the the "Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal" twice and
its subsequent award was also a star because it is considered a
campaign/combat medal.  My medal for visiting Vietnam has three stars for
the specific campaigns that occurred while I was in country.  As it turns
out I personally DIDN'T actually join in on anything specific during that
time but I none the less stayed busy.  Multiple awards of most medals are
added to the ribbons as "oak leaf clusters" with the fifth award being a
silver vice bronze one.  I have the Army Commendation Medal (Arcom) 6th
award and I wear the ribbon with one silver and one bronze oak leaf cluster
(well I did 9 years ago).

Sorry I digressed, hope it helped a little.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:22:27 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: IMTU

OIC




Scott Taylor wrote:

In My Traveller Universe; basically an acronym delineating that something
is an GM's interpretation of "Canon", and not necessarily something found
in any actual printed material.

Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have Mac (2400c!), Will Travel


- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:45:44 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hiver language translation

>>>   IIRC, CT Hivers required keyboard/screen combos to convert
>>> their finger wriggling language to spoken commo.
...
>Well, IMTU things are a little different. Why use a keyboard when you can
just speak to your translator?
>
>The Language Translator as specified in WBH p. 28 can translate from one
spoken sentence to another. I'd say it should be pretty simple to produce an
add-on to the Language Translator that translates spoken words to Hiver
'language' and vice-versa.
...
>The above mentioned are two examples. For me, it doesn't make sense to use
a keyboard for translation, when you can just talk. We're not even touching
upon the subject of Traveller technology versus real world technology here;
voice/speech recognition is possible in the Traveller universe, so why not
make use of it?

  This works pretty well for humans at whatever TL the ref likes (maybe
perfected
by TL 10, after TL 8 intro, for example). OTOH, Hivers don't have speech
IIRC, and
so have to use keyboards to externalize their commo. While the recipient
might have
their own gear, translation of finger-wriggling would likely be both a higher TL
and less precise (lacking prolonged exposure to the Hiver in question).

  Is there a better way for Hivers to communicate with those unable to "read"
finger-wriggles?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:41:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller Observations on Lost In Space movie

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Garry Ward wrote:
 
> Weapons. Electric discharge units to provide 'stunning'. Pistols are bulky,
> could either be laser or small plasma. Body armor is retractable though no
> visible means, so no anlogy to traveller tech is possible. Seems to be a
> borrow from the 'Batman' movies.

Why is everyone hearking back to 'Batman' for a description of the body
armor in 'Lost In Space' when that concept as _body_ armor was , IIRC
first used (and quite impressively, I might add) in the Stargate movie? 
Again, IIRC that 'Euroshutter' armor was only on the Batmobile in the
movie. Beside they _all_ stole it from the house armor in 'Forbidden
Planet' :-p


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:38:53 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Observations on Lost In Space movie

> Why is everyone hearking back to 'Batman' for a description of the body
> armor in 'Lost In Space' when that concept as _body_ armor was , IIRC
> first used (and quite impressively, I might add) in the Stargate movie? 
> Again, IIRC that 'Euroshutter' armor was only on the Batmobile in the
> movie. Beside they _all_ stole it from the house armor in 'Forbidden
> Planet' :-p

"Batman" came before "Stargate".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:46:15 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Chirpers

There has been some discussion about the Chirpers.  I am unfamiliar 
with this race.  Can someone point me in the direction of some good 
information online!?  Thanks.


James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:41:48 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Supertankers, etc. 

> In mail you write:
> 
> > One final point on close-orbit -vs- 100 diameters. Marc has said (on HIWG?)
> > that a ship comes into orbit from jump at 100 diameters roughly along a
> > line between the two masses it is jumping between. If you put a station up
> > at 100 diameters it is going to have to be in orbit around the mass.
> > Because of its orbit, the planetary orbit, etc, etc, it is essentially
> > random _where_ a ship might come it along the 100 diameter radius and where
> > you might place the station. On average it is going to be 3 times further
> > away (?) than a station in low-orbit.
> 
> Which merely means that you need three or more stations. :-)

Or put your refueling stations in free solar orbit and keep the system's ephemeris updated with a probable point and jump to *there*.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:58:07 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: PBEM's

Anybody running a Traveller PBEM wanting a player, or want to *START* a PBEM?

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:52:08 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Sensors and Tracking Weapons

>> Traveller weapons lasers are pulsed (millisecond pulses) and are probably
>> outside of the visible-light range, so you'll need sensors to track them
>> back to their firing source - and advanced sensors will also be able to 
>> track gauss slugs back to their firing point too.

This reminds me of the scene in _Predator_ where Arnie is combatting the 
Predator and throws a rock to distract him. The Predator's visuals/sensors(?)
track the rock's trajectory back to where Arnie is standing and begins to
blast 
away at him. My question is, at what level of technology would this sort of
stuff and the above be possible? And if it can track gauss slugs back, can it
also track normal slug throwers back to their origin? This could have a very
important and unforeseen consequences both for the life span of snipers in the
Far Future, and for an ambush I'm planning in an upcoming slug fest this week
in the Not So Far Future...

**********************************************************
Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net) UIN: 7353691
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.
IMTU tc+(++) ?tm ?tn t4+ tg>+ ?tt to ru+(-) ge+(--) 3i+ -jt+ au+@ st+ ls@
	kk+ hi++ as+ va- dr+ so zh vi da sy- say++ dol++ ith-- mer ?lu ?su ?ge
	jd pi+@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:31:27 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons

- -----Original Message-----
From: Paul D. Owensby <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Sensors and Tracking Weapons


>>> Traveller weapons lasers are pulsed (millisecond pulses) and are
probably
>>> outside of the visible-light range, so you'll need sensors to track them
>
>This reminds me of the scene in _Predator_ where Arnie is combatting the
>Predator and throws a rock to distract him. The Predator's
visuals/sensors(?)
>track the rock's trajectory back to where Arnie is standing and begins to
>blast
>away at him. My question is, at what level of technology would this sort of
>stuff and the above be possible? And if it can track gauss slugs back, can
it
>also track normal slug throwers back to their origin?
>
>Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net) UIN: 7353691


The U.S. has had "Counter Mortar/Counter Battery radars doing that since the
Korean conflict.  It would seem to me that to track a slug would be tough
because its so small.  You would need an acquisition radar that could pick
up the slug which would mean a very very narrow beam width and the general
direction of where it would come from.  Not impossible today, just tough.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:30:27 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: PBEM's

I am running a PBEM, but it isn't Traveller

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> Anybody running a Traveller PBEM wanting a player, or want to *START* a PBEM?
>
> Keven
>
> ==============================================================================
>  "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
>   the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
>   Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance



- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:32:00 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Chirpers

I know of no online info, but they are in library data.

Pearson Publishing wrote:

> There has been some discussion about the Chirpers.  I am unfamiliar
> with this race.  Can someone point me in the direction of some good
> information online!?  Thanks.
>
> James Pearson
> jdpearson@wr.net



- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:32:50 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons

Paul D. Owensby wrote:

> >> Traveller weapons lasers are pulsed (millisecond pulses) and are probably
> >> outside of the visible-light range, so you'll need sensors to track them
> >> back to their firing source - and advanced sensors will also be able to
> >> track gauss slugs back to their firing point too.
>
> This reminds me of the scene in _Predator_ where Arnie is combatting the
> Predator and throws a rock to distract him. The Predator's visuals/sensors(?)
> track the rock's trajectory back to where Arnie is standing and begins to
> blast
> away at him. My question is, at what level of technology would this sort of
> stuff and the above be possible? And if it can track gauss slugs back, can it
> also track normal slug throwers back to their origin? This could have a very
> important and unforeseen consequences both for the life span of snipers in the
> Far Future, and for an ambush I'm planning in an upcoming slug fest this week
> in the Not So Far Future...

I believe there is something called a Claribel early warning system.  It uses
millimeter radar to detect slugs.  I think it can track them  back to source, not
exactly but in the right direction.

Note that due to the nature of a laser, you can only sense it head on (unless it
difuses through some medium).  Thus, tracking a laser is not possible. If you use
gravitic focusing though, a grav sensor may be able to sense the focusing tunnel.
Another possibility with gravitic focusing is surrounding your ship with a
suspended plasma field.  When the gravitic focus beam strikes your ship, the
plasma discharges through the beam back to the firing ship.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:50:09 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Chirpers 

> I know of no online info, but they are in library data.
> 
> Pearson Publishing wrote:
> 
> > There has been some discussion about the Chirpers.  I am unfamiliar
> > with this race.  Can someone point me in the direction of some good
> > information online!?  Thanks.

Chirpers are feral Droyne.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:18:54 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Purchasing your McDonnell Douglas Aircraft

Mark Cook wrote:

> In Traveller-digest V1998 #380, Evyn MacDude
> <wmacdude@concentric.net> writes:
>
> I want start out by saying that the following brief diatribe is not
> aimed at Evyn, but rather at the original author of the "Thank-you
> letter."

No offense man, I was here for the MT/TNE wars.

> > Put this in the catagory of things we should see more of.
>         [snip]
> > > This was actually posted very briefly on the McDonnell Douglas
> > > website by an employee there who obviously has a sense of humor.
>
> Not true.  This is one of *thousands* of urban myths.  I am *personally*
> aware of it existing as far back as 1983.  Further, whoever created it
> clearly has very little actual knowledge about the U.S. military air
> defense industry.  Specifically:

That's what I took it for, but it was too funny not to pass on.

BTW, to anyone offend by the post in the first place, sorry. My
mouse slipped, didn't mean to post it here.

> > > 2.Which model aircraft did you purchase?
> > > [_] F-14 Tomcat  [_] F-15 Eagle   [_] F-16 Falcon
> > > [_] F-117A Stealth [_] Classified
>
> The F-14 is manufactured by Grumman, not MacDonnell Douglas. General
> Dynamics designed and built the F-16.  The F-117A Stealth was created
> by Lockheed.  Only the F-15 Eagle was actually a McDonnell Douglas
> product.
>
> Sheesh.  Five minutes of lousy research is all it would have taken. :^/
>
>         - Mark C.
>           Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
>           NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)

Ditto, but think of the possibilities. Party finds a flaw in a certain class
of ship's, and is hired by the company to run down the registered owners.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
 Fortalice Desertum
 (Home of the ClusterNuke)
 AD. 1998

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:20:25 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Leszek Karlik, Where Are You?

Talisman wrote:

> I would like some Traveller JPGs.

Me Too...

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
 Fortalice Desertum
 (Home of the ClusterNuke)
 AD. 1998

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #388
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 13 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 389



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons
Re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons
Re: Uniforms II
Re: Traveller Observations on Lost In Space movie
Re: Hiver language translation
Automated Human-Hiver translation
CT/MT Mailing List?
Re: Repai
Re: Uniforms II
Re: CT/MT Mailing List?
Re: CT/MT Mailing List? 
Re: Uniforms II 
Re: Uniforms II 
TCS Stats for the whole Imperium
Viability of Longhaul Trade
Re: Uniforms II and the British
Re: TCS Stats for the whole Imperium
Traveller Alexandria Page slowly going on-line
Re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons
Base symbols on sector maps

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:04:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons

In mail you write:

> This reminds me of the scene in _Predator_ where Arnie is combatting
> the Predator and throws a rock to distract him. The Predator's
> visuals/sensors(?) track the rock's trajectory back to where Arnie is
> standing and begins to blast away at him. My question is, at what
> level of technology would this sort of stuff and the above be
> possible?  And if it can track gauss slugs back, can it also track
> normal slug throwers back to their origin? This could have a very
> important and unforeseen consequences both for the life span of
> snipers in the Far Future, and for an ambush I'm planning in an
> upcoming slug fest this week in the Not So Far Future...

I recall reading that there is *currently* a project using
millimeter(?) radar to track sniper fire. And yes, it will make life
"interesting" for snipers, the way counter-battery radar is starting to
make life interesting for artillery.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:57:38 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons

At 09:52 pm 4/12/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>> Traveller weapons lasers are pulsed (millisecond pulses) and are
probably
>>> outside of the visible-light range, so you'll need sensors to
track them
>>> back to their firing source - and advanced sensors will also be
able to 
>>> track gauss slugs back to their firing point too.
>
>This reminds me of the scene in _Predator_ where Arnie is combatting
the 
>Predator and throws a rock to distract him. The Predator's
visuals/sensors(?)
>track the rock's trajectory back to where Arnie is standing and
begins to
>blast 
>away at him. My question is, at what level of technology would this
sort 

	Current counter-artillery fire. Radar tracks trajectory of bad guys
shells, good guy arty responds. Getting to the point of tracking
small arms fire is also currently in work--specifically aimed at
snipers, etc. in peacekeeping operations.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:54:16 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Uniforms II

The USMC is fairly stingy w/ them.  A friend of mine just graduated from
National Guard Training and had all kinds of ribbons and badges for stuff I
got yelled at for. : )  Completing MOS training...  grenade badge... i've
thrown gads of those damned things... All I have is my expert Rifle and expert
Pistol qual... in a couple years, i should have a good conduct, at least...

ob trav...  The one thing I really liked for MT rules set (love all the
background stuff) was Advanced character gen.  Of course i prefer TNE/t2k
choice method but I automatically adopted an awards/wound (survival) system
(of course using Reformation Coalition medals... see Lewis Robert'  BARD Pages
for details on these...) in addition to a MOS system (aided by Striker II's
TO&Es)...
  I see that there are only Combat Action Ribbons and valor medals... I've
been thinking bout working in good conduct, etc.  Lemme see, there's
recruiting (baby stealers...  ugh)... hmm... overseas deployment (out of
sector deployment?)... I would think put it in on teh "survival role"...
leaving court martial, etc only for the extreme end and put in demerits and
good conduct types in between or a seperate scale?  What does everyone think?

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 03:12:19 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Observations on Lost In Space movie

> Constructing a 'Lost In Space' type adventure will be easier for
> Traveller:TNE than for Classic, MT or T4. The FTL drive mechanism implied in
> the movie follows the FFS/1 Wormhole and Stargate format more than standard
> Traveller Jump Drives.

That's one of the prime reasons I like TNE.  The alternate tech and ground up
system.  I've devised a FF&S "Star Wars" baseline technology so i could design
SW ships for Battle Rider (much better than just picking #s)... i had to make
a few assumptions along the way (and write up a couple tech pieces), but... :
)  I'm gonna do B5 next (works perfect w/ keyhole drives and subspace... ) and
have contemplated ST (but that would involve probably buying their tech
manual...). 

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:20:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hiver language translation

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>> The Language Translator as specified in WBH p. 28 can translate from one
>> spoken sentence to another. I'd say it should be pretty simple to 
>> produce an add-on to the Language Translator that translates spoken 
>> words to Hiver 'language' and vice-versa.
...
>> The above mentioned are two examples. For me, it doesn't make sense to 
>> use a keyboard for translation, when you can just talk. We're not even 
>> touching upon the subject of Traveller technology versus real world 
>> technology here; voice/speech recognition is possible in the Traveller 
>> universe, so why not make use of it?
  
> This works pretty well for humans at whatever TL the ref likes (maybe
> perfected by TL 10, after TL 8 intro, for example). OTOH, Hivers don't 
> have speech IIRC, and so have to use keyboards to externalize their 
> commo. 

WBH p. 28, under language translator:

TL 9:  Limited audio/no visio
TL 10: Improved audio/limited video
TL: 12 Quality audio/quality video
TL: 14 Pocket sized unit

By TL 12 I'd say the unit will have a camera on it.  Point it at the Hiver
that's waving it's tentacles at you and you'll hear speach coming out of
the unit (assuming its programmed for Hiver).  I'd only use the keyboard
stuff for pre-TL 12 communication. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:07:20 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Automated Human-Hiver translation

Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:45:44 -0700 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>  This works pretty well for humans at whatever TL the ref likes (maybe
>perfected
>by TL 10, after TL 8 intro, for example). OTOH, Hivers don't have speech
>IIRC, and
>so have to use keyboards to externalize their commo. While the recipient
>might have
>their own gear, translation of finger-wriggling would likely be both a higher >TL
>and less precise (lacking prolonged exposure to the Hiver in question).
>
>  Is there a better way for Hivers to communicate with those unable to >"read"
>finger-wriggles?

I can see that I was thinking pretty much 'humano-centric' here, as I really hadn't considered the implications from a Hiver's point of view. However, I would still consider that a sofisticated Language Translator would be able to handle finger-wriggling as well. Granted, visual pattern recognition is a more advanced technology than voice/speech recognition, but certainly that technology must be in place before TL 15 as well.

Traveller robots are able to navigate by visual sensors (i.e. by seeing), so the technology should be there already. I will admit that a Language Translator trying to pick up a Hiver's finger wriggling could produce some faulty translation, but that's also the case with spoken language.

A sofisticated translator robot with synaptic processing and storage (and some experience) should be able to translate to and from Hiver finger wriggling fluently and expertly.

Off course, the drawback here is the price of such a thing...


Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 05:26:38 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: CT/MT Mailing List?

Whatever happened to the Classic / MegaTraveller mailing list?

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:37:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Taylor <izzylobo@faerealm.faerealm.com>
Subject: Re: Repai

You wrote;
<snip; WinCE device crushed...>

>ObTrav: Well, my players make a lot of use of protable electronics. Now
>I'm going to add a 'butterfingers' roll against dexterity, especially at
>functions with lots of small children, to avoid dropping something
>important. Makes paying for milspec equipment a bit more attractive, even
>if it does weigh more!

I wouldn't be *too* harsh with the roll except for absolute cutting edge
stuff... if the system has been available for more than half a TL or so
(using Tech Levels as a dating system... is that kosher?), it's going to
be pretty damn rugged (by way of example, my Newton 120 has survived a
fall of about five feet, into a puddle in a parking lot, in the rain, with
nothing more serious happening than my cursing a lot and some scratches on
the case).

Figure that once an electronics technology becomes mature, it can be put
in a case that is pretty damn people-proof (note; this does not mean
Marine-Proof, or Scout-Proof, but it is certainly Navy-Proof or
Merchant-Proof) without too much extra expense (part of the reason
soldier-proof laptops, PDAs, etc. cost so much right now is that they are
limited market items; not many people need a laptop that can be dropped
off Mt. Rainier and still be usable, and most people aren't going to keep
their consumer electronics that long, because if a laptop, for example, is
three years old, it's two and a half years out of date; so who cares if it
doesn't work after a year and a half. It's not worth the extra cost (and
weight) to buy the one with the titanium frame and case, rubber gaskets,
and shock-absorbent design, when you'll be replacing it in a year or so
anyways.

By the time of the 3I, however, it can take generations for signifcant
technological advances to take place; the wrist-top your father bought
when he was in Uni is still a perfectly valid computer (though it's likely
out of style). So it's likely that such systems will be built to last a
lot longer than they are today; sure, some will be going for the "computer
of the year" trend-setters club (both producers and consumer), but a there
will be companies doing the Rolex/Timex "Built to Last" theory; good,
solid systems that will last forever.

at least, IM<ns>TU, that's how it works; I figure that most systems are
pretty rugged, unless the character is the type to buy frilly junk.

Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have Mac (2400c!), Will Travel
anyone want to buy a used performa?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:25:36 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Uniforms II

At 02:54 AM 4/13/98 EDT, you wrote:

>  I see that there are only Combat Action Ribbons and valor medals... I've
>been thinking bout working in good conduct, etc.  Lemme see, there's
>recruiting (baby stealers...  ugh)... hmm... overseas deployment (out of
>sector deployment?)... I would think put it in on teh "survival role"...
>leaving court martial, etc only for the extreme end and put in demerits and
>good conduct types in between or a seperate scale?  What does everyone think?

I'm concentrating on the Imperial (Navy/Marine) decorations.. as far as I
care, the Stoudenese Army gives you a medal for not contracting a STD for
six months.

I would think Long Service medals (for 10, 20, and 30 years service) and
some sort of award for exemplary service in peacetime (called the Emperor's
Thanks).   I also have sketched out some awards like the Orbital Assault
badge (awarded to Jump Troops or Marines in the first wave of a planetary
assault) and the Protected Forces award (successful completion of vacuum
training.)
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:14:02 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: CT/MT Mailing List?

At 05:26 AM 4/13/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Whatever happened to the Classic / MegaTraveller mailing list?

X-boat died about the time T4 was announced.
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:12:14 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Mailing List? 

> At 05:26 AM 4/13/98 +0000, you wrote:
> >Whatever happened to the Classic / MegaTraveller mailing list?
> 
> X-boat died about the time T4 was announced.
> --

Bummer.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:17:16 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Uniforms II 

> At 02:54 AM 4/13/98 EDT, you wrote:
> 
> I would think Long Service medals (for 10, 20, and 30 years service) and
> some sort of award for exemplary service in peacetime (called the Emperor's
> Thanks).   I also have sketched out some awards like the Orbital Assault
> badge (awarded to Jump Troops or Marines in the first wave of a planetary
> assault) and the Protected Forces award (successful completion of vacuum
> training.)
> --

I'm putting 'hitch hashes' on their mess dress' lower left sleeve.  One hash 
for every term.  And isn't the 'drop slash' worn on the back collar the 
unofficial award for any crunchie making a jump into a hot LZ already?

I could see a Combat Infantrycritter Badge, simular to the US Army's CIB, 
which was handed out after 180 days in a *designated* combat zone (tho these 
days, they'll hand you one if somebody takes a shot at *you*...)

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 06:14:17 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Uniforms II 

At 08:17 AM 4/13/98 +0000, you wrote:

>I'm putting 'hitch hashes' on their mess dress' lower left sleeve.  One hash 
>for every term.  And isn't the 'drop slash' worn on the back collar the 
>unofficial award for any crunchie making a jump into a hot LZ already?

That could work.  I'd love to see a Command Master Fleet Sergeant try to
ben his arm after 40 years of service.  The drop slash is an unofficial,
but oft-worn decoration.  No matter how it infuriates the Navy.

>I could see a Combat Infantrycritter Badge, simular to the US Army's CIB, 
>which was handed out after 180 days in a *designated* combat zone (tho these 
>days, they'll hand you one if somebody takes a shot at *you*...)

Hey!  I was an infantrycritter, so watch it!  :)

For the Marines, I don't think so.  Their job is to fight, why get an award
for doing your job?  That's also part of the idea behind the campaign
ribbons.  It's the same mind set that has the Marines not wearing their
jump wings on everyday dress.  "We all do it," they think, "why brag?  We
*know* we're the best."


- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:36:37 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: TCS Stats for the whole Imperium

Yo Folks,
     Sorry it took me a while to get to this. You can find TCS stats for
the whole Imperium up in
ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/tcs.zip
     They are in comma & quote format which can be imported by most
spreadsheets. The first column is the sector, the second the next, the
third the name, the fourth the peacetime annual income, the fifth the
wartime annual income. Unlike the PE stats that are also up there there is
no rolling involved in these so they are definitive rather than just one
possibility.
     For interest sake, here are the top 20 peacetime earners:

Top 20 Imperial Earners

Rnk  Sector        Hex  World      Peace     War
 1 Massilia Sector 0402 Kaggushus  56.70TCr  70.87TCr
 2 Massilia Sector 2407 Wynd       56.70TCr  70.87TCr
 3 Ilelish         2101 Shume      54.00TCr  67.50TCr
 4 Dagudashaag     1431 Argi       54.00TCr  67.50TCr
 5 Dagudashaag     3008 Iiradli    51.74TCr  54.00TCr
 6 Reaver's Deep   3220 Khakhan    51.30TCr  64.12TCr
 7 Massilia Sector 1719 Forquee    48.60TCr  60.75TCr
 8 Lishun Sector   0227 Shuna      48.30TCr  50.40TCr
 9 Old Expanses    2125 Mexit      45.60TCr  57.00TCr
10 Vland Sector    1825 Karfir     45.00TCr  45.00TCr
11 Dagudashaag     0111 Upag       45.00TCr  45.00TCr
12 Daibei          2014 Amdani     45.00TCr  45.00TCr
13 Daibei          0627 Zhemi      44.55TCr  48.60TCr
14 Daibei          1724 Anaxias    44.55TCr  48.60TCr
15 Massilia Sector 1233 Nagiida    43.20TCr  54.00TCr
16 Old Expanses    2315 Atil       42.75TCr  62.99TCr
17 Lishun Sector   1627 Taccis     42.00TCr  52.50TCr
18 Deneb Sector    1135 Lilad      40.80TCr  51.00TCr
19 Old Expanses    2538 Vleeman    40.50TCr  40.50TCr
20 Daibei          2239 Kimel      40.00TCr  40.00TCr

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:48:00 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Viability of Longhaul Trade

[Did some analysis on the weekend...]



Viability of Longhaul Trade

When considering the question of what commodities are traded between the
stars and how far it is profitable to trade them some analysis is useful.
The standard price for transport is set at 1000Cr  per displacement ton.
(The accuracy of that figure is another debate.) A displacement ton is 13.5
cubic meters, or 13,500 liters. A simple division gives us a number of
.075Cr to transport 1 liter one jump.
In order for goods to be profitable at their final destination, their cost
of transport can't be too  high. For the purposes of this analysis we will
pick the arbitrary number of 10% as our cutoff point. In other words, we
will assume that as long as the cost of transport is less than 10% of the
final sale price, imported goods can compete with local goods.
Therefore, if one was to transport an object taking up 1 liter 1 jump, the
cost of transport would be .075Cr, and the final sale price could be no
more than .75Cr. If you were transporting the same object 50 jumps (the
approximate length of the Spinward Main) it would cost 3.7Cr for transport
and the final price would have to be at least 37Cr to still compete.
This may seem a bit steep, but when you compare it against the cost and
volume of known items it turns out that a very wide variety of goods are
profitable, even when shipped hundreds of jumps. The table below is
compiled from data from the Referee?s Manual, and the Imperial
Encyclopedia. In fact, very few items there were sufficiently high-bulk,
low value not to be worth trading.
Even if you are more cynical and assume that the transport price can be no
more than 1% of the final price, that 1000Cr/ton is too little, that
import/export tariffs, space loss due to packing, or other such things
combine to decrease the profitability be even two orders of magnitude (100
times more expensive than my assumptions) there are still a significant
number of profitable items.
In the table below Item is the name in the books for the commodity, TL is
the tech level I used for the vol/cost calculations, and Jumps is the
number of jumps that you can ship the item such that the cost of transport
is less than 10% of the final price.

Item               TL  Jumps
Int. Combust         5    270
Imp Int. Combust     6   2702
Fission              6     27
Gas Turbine          7   1351
MHD Turbine          8  13513
Fusion              10     27
Fusion              11    135
Fusion              12    270
Fusion              13   1081
Fusion              14   1801
Fusion              15   2702
Batteries            5    675
Batteries           15  13513
Solar Cells          6   1351
Solar Cells         12    270
Jump Unit            9    300
Anti-grav Unit       9     50
Thruster Unit       11     70
Avionics             8     67
Avionics            15    459
Radio (5km)          5      7
Radio (5km)          6    101
Radio (5km)          7    506
Radio (1000AU)       7   2533
Radio (1000AU)       9   5630
Radio (1000AU)      12   7239
Radio (1000AU)      15  14478
Computer 0           5    162
Computer 1           5   1081
Computer 2           7   5135
Computer 3           9  10270
Computer 4          10  17297
Computer 5          11  26216
Computer 6          12  31891
Computer 7          13  47027
Computer 8          14  64594
Computer 9          15  82432
Heads-up Display     9     54
Large Holodisplay   12     33
Heads-up Holodispla 13    135
Stateroom            9     10
Low Berth            9      5
Air Tank             5    135
Air Tank            12    135
Air Tank            14    270
Atmosphere Tester    7    101
Attache Case         7     50
Rescue Ball          7    202
Advanced Base        8    938
Battle Computer      9    482
Emergency Beacon     9    506
Binoculars           3     50
Binoculars, Electro  8    506
Binoculars, Image C 10  16216
Binoculars, PRIS    12   4729
Bugs & Detectors    15   4729
Cable                9    135
Hand Calculator      7     54
Carpentry ToolSet    2     13
Breaching Charges    8     67
Cold Clothes         1     16
Cold Clothes         6     22
Cold Clothes        10    135
Comcorder           11   5405
Vidcom              14   1501
Hand Computer       11   6756
Radiation Counter    5    168
Densiometer         14   1351
Densiometer         15  11261
Desert Survival Kit  5    135
Metal Detector       6    202
Electronic Toolset   7    270
Filter/Resporator    5    202
Artifical Gill       8    900
Grapnel Gun          7     22
Grav Belt           12   5405
Grav Belt           15   9909
Oil/Gas Lamp         2      6
Cold Light Lantern   6     54
Inertial Locator     9   3243
Tumbler Locks        4    337
Machete              4     84
Map box              9   3378
Filter Mask          3     13
Mechanical Toolset   5     45
Medical Kit          7     67
Medical Scanner     12  16891
Metalwork Toolset    4     40
Signal Mirror        2     67
Mountaineer's Kit    4     33
Parachute            5     16
Gravchute           10    225
Respirator           5    135
Navagation Satelite  9    157
Bioscanner          15  59121
Snowshoes            1     20
Fusion Still        13     40
Tarpaulin            1      3
Tent                 2     45
Pressure Tent        7     90
Flashlight           5     13
Language Translator 12   2702
Sword                1   1351
5mm Revolver         5    450
4mm Gauss Pistol    13   1351
9mm SMG              5    270
Assult Rocket Launc 10    308
PGMP                12   2252
FGMP                14  13513
Cloth Armour         6     75
Battle Dress        14 175175
Air/Raft            15     13
GCarrier            15    180
Speeder             15     22

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:14:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Uniforms II and the British

Doug Berry writes:

>>Those little coloured squares seem to be peculiar to the US. Certainly
>>militaries decended from the British don't use them. To us they were just
>>another reason to laugh at dumb Yanks.
>
>Are you sure?  I've seen British Army wearing ribbons before.

I have too.  I remember asking a guard in Windsor Castle about his service
ribbons when I was younger, in fact.  One was for North Africa -- and these
were definitely the smaller ribbons, not medals.

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:48:46 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: TCS Stats for the whole Imperium

In a message dated 98-04-13 09:39:06 EDT, you write:

<< 20 Daibei          2239 Kimel      40.00TCr  40.00TCr >>

Dear Sir:

Can you tell me anything about this world?

Seth C. Kimmel  <

thanks.

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 1998 11:39 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Traveller Alexandria Page slowly going on-line

My Traveller web pages are slowly building.  Useful stuff
so far includes:

Traveller Alexandria Project
<http://www.metronet.com/~washi/tas/TAP/atrium.html>

Starport Trade Route Calculations -- text
<http://www.metronet.com/~washi/tas/Starport/RobNJonStarport.html>

Starport Trade Route Calculations -- JavaScript
<http://www.metronet.com/~washi/tas/Starport/Starporttrade2.html>


Hey, I might even move more stuff into it.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:04:29 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Paul D. Owensby wrote:

> >> Traveller weapons lasers are pulsed (millisecond pulses) and are probably
> >> outside of the visible-light range, so you'll need sensors to track them
> >> back to their firing source - and advanced sensors will also be able to 
> >> track gauss slugs back to their firing point too.
> 
> This reminds me of the scene in _Predator_ where Arnie is combatting the 
> Predator and throws a rock to distract him. The Predator's visuals/sensors(?)
> track the rock's trajectory back to where Arnie is standing and begins to
> blast 
> away at him. My question is, at what level of technology would this sort of
> stuff and the above be possible? And if it can track gauss slugs back, can it
> also track normal slug throwers back to their origin? This could have a very
> important and unforeseen consequences both for the life span of snipers in the
> Far Future, and for an ambush I'm planning in an upcoming slug fest this week
> in the Not So Far Future...

Now. there are experimental(?) systems to track sniper bullets via an
acoustic signature, and we can track arty shells, including mortars, back
to their source for rapid counterfire very quickly.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:08:50 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Base symbols on sector maps

I'm slowly putting together a utility to generate Campaign Cartographer
sector maps, and I've been trying to sort out what symbols to use for
bases.  Some are inconsistent in published material; some (such as
Zhodani Relay Station or Hiver Embassy Centre) I've never seen.

A, B, F, H, U are doubled codes, so not applicable, and I don't know
what V stands for.  Most entries appear in GDW or DGP publications;
other sources are indicated (in parenthesis).  "Suggestion" indicates I
haven't seen it on a (sub)sector map, and am making it up.


C  Vargr Corsair Base:  Two small solid five-point stars.
D  Imperial Naval Depot:  Solid square.
E  Hiver Embassy Centre:  The letter E on it's back (suggestion).
G  Vargr Naval Base:  Same as J.
I  Interface World:  Circle with crosshairs.
J  Independent  Naval Base:  Hollow five-point star.
K  K'Kree Naval Base:  Same as J (suggestion).
L  Hiver Naval Base:  Same as J (suggestion).
M  Non-Imperial Military Base:  Solid circle, double small solid circle,
        or club sign.  Use double small solid circle.
N  Imperial Naval Base:  Solid five-point star, or hollow one in solid
        circle (IG).  Use solid five-point star.
O  K'Kree Naval Outpost:  Inverted solid triangle (suggestion).
P  Droyne Naval Base:  Same as J.
Q  Droyne Garrison:  Same as M.
R  Aslan Clan Base:  Hollow diamond.
S  Imperial Scout Base:  Solid triangle.
T  Tlaukhu Base:  Yen currency symbol.
   Terminus World:  Circle with crosshairs.
W  Imperial Way Station:  Hollow triangle.
X  Zhodani Relay Station:  Inverted hollow triangle (suggestion).
Y  Zhodani Naval Depot:  Hollow square (suggestion).
Z  Zhodani Naval/Military Base:  Diamond.

In addition, the following have been lumped in with bases for mapping
purposes:

Ex Exile Camp:  Letter X.
Pr Prison Camp:  Letter P, or solid square diamond (IG).  Use P.
Rs Research Station:  Greek letter, or asterisk (IG).  Use asterisk.
?  Reserve:  Letter R, or wheel symbol (IG).  Use wheel.
   [How is a reserve indicated in the data?]

Comments, corrections and the answer to that last question would be
appreciated.

TTFN,

John
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom
tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++
Various Traveller IS Forms: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #389
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 13 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 390



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

The "Classic Take" on Traveller
Re: Hiver language translation
Re: World Builders Handbook
Re: Uniforms II
Uniforms, decorations, etc.
Re: TCS Stats for the whole Imperium
Foreven Sector Star Positions
Re: Base symbols on sector maps
Re: Traveller Observations on Lost In Space movie
Re: Viability of Longhaul Trade
Re: NERVA
re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons
Re: Chirpers
Re: Purchasing your McDonnell Douglas Aircraft
Re: Uniforms II
Robots Ideas
Re: Automated Human-Hiver translation
Jumpspace
Spinward Marches Campaign for Sale
Re: Jumpspace
Re: World Builders Handbook
Re: Jumpspace

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 1998 12:24 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: The "Classic Take" on Traveller

The Traveller Environment

Our core group has a variety of opinions, but there are 3
obvious opinions, which I may add to the IMTU code:

	env+	Traveller tech is so advanced it's mind boggling.
	env	Traveller tech is, like, Buck Rogers style.
	env-	Traveller tech is like 1975 with Jump drives.

Rob

IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:26:31 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Hiver language translation

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> >>>   IIRC, CT Hivers required keyboard/screen combos to convert
> >>> their finger wriggling language to spoken commo.

Hivers themselves developed a voice synthesizer that was used to convert
their written language into local speech, as well as a computer enhanced
language display enabling non-Hivers to communicate with them using
single keystrokes or short instructions.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:48:11 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: World Builders Handbook

>Greg Willis wrote:
>>
>> Can anybody tell me where I could get the World Builders
>> Handbook?  I can't seem to find it anywhere.
[snip]
>WBH was produced by Digest Group Publications for MT (my copy is sitting in
>front of me now, as I am gen'ing up the system I will be using in my game
>Friday).  It is well worth the money (as is virtually every Traveller supplement
>put out by that much missed company.)
[snip]

The important missing phrase WBH was produced by DGP for MT *in 1989 or
1990* (I think).

The book is now out of print.  Your only hope of getting a copy is (1) It
comes up for sale on this list or (more likely) rec.games.rpg.marketplace
or (2) Roger Sanger (holder of the DGP copyrights) decides to allow
reprinting of this tome and a few others which are still quite popular as
gaming aids (such as the Starship Operator's Manual, 101 Vehicles, 101
Robots, etc).  I cannot hold out much hope for either.

While you are looking, you can get some (or lots) of the same information
from equally difficult to locate books such as;

Grand Census
Grand Survey
Scouts (CT book 6)

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:52:23 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Uniforms II

>
> It's the same mind set that has the Marines not 
> wearing their jump wings on everyday dress.  "We all do it," they 
> think, "why brag?  We *know* we're the best."
> 

Yes, we are tight with our awards, and we have had lots of fun at the
other service's lavish systems.  

I wore my gold wings ("I don't know but its been said/Army wings are
made of lead") on my everyday uniform.  The one I wanted to wear but
wasn't permitted to was the "rigger" wings that I earned at the Army
parachute rigger school in Fort Lee.  We had very few riggers in the
USMC....and most of 'em were in my Air Delivery Platoon...

ObTrav:  I have played only CT.  Are there any rules for unmanned
resupply similar to air drop missions in any of the other systems?

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:27:44 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Uniforms, decorations, etc.

In my universe, anyone honorably discharged from uniformed Imperial
service (i.e., Navy, Marines, Army, Scouts) is entitled to wear a hollow
silver lozenge on the right breast of the uniform.  The rationale is
that servicesophonts (1) are entitled to wear their uniforms after
retirement on ceremonial occasions; (2) remain in the reserves, subject
to being called up, until they're too old to fight effectively; and (3)
after retirement, are often hired by Imperial member states as training
cadre, with Imperial blessing (and, sometimes, subsidy).  

For Scouts, the lozenge indicates detached duty.  

I chose the lozenge because it reminded me of the hollow gold lozenge
with eagle passing through that was issued to people leaving, I think,
the US Navy after WW2.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:02:31 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: TCS Stats for the whole Imperium

Jo Grant posted:
>
>Yo Folks,
>     Sorry it took me a while to get to this. You can find TCS stats for
> the whole Imperium up in
> ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/tcs.zip


Jo, I tried to access the above URL and received the following:

"Fatal Error 500

Can't Access Document: ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/tcs.zip. 

Reason: FTP-server replies: tcs.zip: No such file or directory.. "

Could you confirm the URL? (This could be related to my company's
web server.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:33:51 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Foreven Sector Star Positions

Hiya everyone. Do any of you know if there's anywhere online that I 
could find the star position data for the Foreven sector? I would 
just gen it from scratch, but I'd like to keep the sector as close to 
canon as possible. 

Thanks,

Bob Kondrk
- ---------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ USA
dss2@erols.com

Webpage:
http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:50:09 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Base symbols on sector maps

At 01:08 PM 4/13/98 +0100, you wrote:

>C  Vargr Corsair Base:  Two small solid five-point stars.

how's about a three pointed "wolf's head"?

- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:36:59 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Observations on Lost In Space movie

> Gravitic technology: small objects can 'float', larger objects still require
> reaction type engines. The Jupiter Launch Vehicle demonstrates impressive
> reaction thrust to launch. The space fighters also show reaction engines for
> manuver. References are made several places to 'Fusion' engines, assume to
> mean HEPLAR.

Don't forget the artificial gravity in the ships.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:04:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Viability of Longhaul Trade

Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:

>[Did some analysis on the weekend...]

>When considering the question of what commodities are traded between the
>stars and how far it is profitable to trade them some analysis is useful.
>The standard price for transport is set at 1000Cr  per displacement ton.
>(The accuracy of that figure is another debate.) A displacement ton is 13.5
>cubic meters, or 13,500 liters. A simple division gives us a number of
>.075Cr to transport 1 liter one jump.

<snip>

>In the table below Item is the name in the books for the commodity, TL is
>the tech level I used for the vol/cost calculations, and Jumps is the
>number of jumps that you can ship the item such that the cost of transport
>is less than 10% of the final price.

Thanks for all the work.  You know, I think this analysis points out a
problem in Imperial trade.  It's difficult for a starship to make enough
money carrying freight to pay off it's mortgage, but you can ship TL 2
tents 45 jumps before the price of shipping gets to high. 

Either the megacarriers are doing a whole hell of a lot of interstellar
trade (as in each industrial planet in a subsector specializes in a
different set of commodities and the megacarriers ship between them, or we
need to raise shipping costs somewhat (maybe to 2,000 Cr/Td). 

Actually at this level it would be easier to make a living hauling cargo,
but the viability of long-distance trade would still be high.  I think
we're looking at a lot more trade than most people think.  I sort of like
this idea. 

Just as a start this would have a few obvious game impacts:

1) Rich folks on any world with a starport could have high tech stuff,
*regardless* of the tech level of the world.  More importantly, some of
the rich folk's private guards would have high tech weapons and armor. 
This spices up visits to those TL 5 &6 worlds in a way I like a whole lot. 

2) This type of interdependence likely existed during the First & Second
Imperium's also.  This would explain why the Long Night was so tough on
lots of worlds.  Even many of the wealthy, industrial worlds were not even
close to self-sufficient. 

Trade in the Imperium isn't just shipping out valuable surplus goods
(which largely defined pre-trade), it's producing goods which are used to
buy vital necessities which are not produced at home (much like trade in
the late 20th century). 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:57:26 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: NERVA

>Better recheck your sources. The "full up" unit that was the last one
>tested was essentially identical to what would have been flown except
>for the way things were arranged, had an Isp of well over 700. That's
>almost *double* the best chemical rockets.
Double the ISP of a good chemical rocket (400), but with terrible
thrust-to-weight; NERVA doesn't have a whole lot of advantage as a
first stage, and we lack a pressing application for a high-ISP
upper stage.

(ObTraveller: Try designing ships using the basic NTR in FFS2 - you'll
find it's very much a niche engine. Even the TL-9 GasCore NTR is
hard to work with (see my  lifter design I posted a while ago.)

>Remember, double the Isp means that you only need to haul half as much
>fuel around. And for "multi-stage" situations, the advantage goes up
>exponentially.

It's much better than "half as much fuel" since delta-V goes as
ISP*log(mass fraction), but still it's an overstatement to (as the
original poster did) assume that everything would be perfect if only
we had carried on with it's development. (Though it's a common flaw
in discussions of space policy; other favourite "if only we had..."
subjects include DynaSoar and (especially) Orion, which is usually
assumed to solve all of humanities ills for no money at all, as well
as making julienne fries.

For an interesting perspective on alternate history, take a look at
Stephen Baxter's "Voyage": NASA persists with a manned mission to Mars
after Apollo, but at the cost of not doing Pioneer or Voyager or HST
or pretty much anything else.


Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:03:42 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons

>My question is, at what level of technology would this sort of
>stuff and the above be possible? 
TL 8-9; people at LLNL are working on it (using infrared cameras, 
I believe) even as we speak.

>And if it can track gauss slugs back, can it
>also track normal slug throwers back to their origin?

Yes. Although this is the sort of technology (like smart/homing
bullets) that probably doesn't fit with Traveller technological
conservatism.

>Note that due to the nature of a laser, you can only sense it head on (unless it
>difuses through some medium). 
Like air, for example. Or even relatively thick (inner-solar-system)
vacuum; weapons laser pulses are pretty intense. You wouldn't see them
with the naked eye but would with a good sensor. If you're anywhere
in the general direction it's pointed (within +-30 degrees or more)
you'll see off-axis light coming out of the emitter, too.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:48:04 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Chirpers

> >
> > > There has been some discussion about the Chirpers.  I am unfamiliar
> > > with this race.  Can someone point me in the direction of some good
> > > information online!?  Thanks.
> 
> Chirpers are feral Droyne.

All right, i dont have anything on the Chirpers up yet, but anything i could find about
the Droyne and the Ancients. See my sites The Ancients: History on the History, Sites
for Sites and Artifacts for (you guessed it:) Artifacts.
I think i am going to add anything i have on the Chirpers real soon, when i have time
again, probable sometime next week! Ill post an announcement when i am done.
As always, if you feel something is missing on my site write me and ill add it.
Coming soon as well: Info included in Aliens 1: V&V.
Site Adress: See sig.
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:52:05 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Purchasing your McDonnell Douglas Aircraft

Evyn MacDude wrote:

> 
> No offense man, I was here for the MT/TNE wars.
battle hardened veterans that we are by now.
Although the MT/TNE wars were like peacetime compared to the Taskwars...
(BTW my favorit System that i think marc should use for T4.1 is: dfg h dhgjklhrtj )
									^
									!	
							(self censorship in progress)

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:56:58 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Uniforms II

TravelrTNE wrote:

> ob trav...  The one thing I really liked for MT rules set (love all the
> background stuff) was Advanced character gen.  Of course i prefer TNE/t2k
Hear Hear! I hope an advanced Chargen is brought back for T4.1.. Maybe an idea for a
BITS-Series?


> choice method but I automatically adopted an awards/wound (survival) system
> (of course using Reformation Coalition medals... see Lewis Robert'  BARD Pages
> for details on these...) in addition to a MOS system (aided by Striker II's
> TO&Es)...
Ah, those were the days when we spent one Brownie Point just to get an additional badge, 
which gave us back that BP. Awards for nothing! 
My best character (an Admiral) got 5 SFEHs that way!

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:48:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Robots Ideas

I've been playing around with the wonderful Robot spreadsheet Andrew 
Aiken (sp?) created.

It's great, but it points out a crucial problem with the robot brains, 
they are simply too big and too expensive at higher tech levels.  Fuel 
cells go up in efficiency as do batteries, but the CPU and storage units 
don't.

We have

Type			Vol (liters)	Wt (kg)	Cost CR		TL
CPU, linear		0.2		0.1	500		8
CPU, parallel		0.5		0.1	10,000		9
CPU, synaptic		0.1		0.1	50,000		11
Storage, standard	0.5		0.1	250		8
Storage, synaptic	0.1		0.1	25,000		11

This seems silly to me, how about one simple change:

Price, volume, and weight are all halved for every TL above the one where
they were introduced:

So at TL 15 we have

Type                    Vol (liters)    Wt (kg) Cost CR         TL
CPU, linear             0.0016          0.0008     4	      	15
CPU, parallel           0.008           0.0016  150       	15
CPU, synaptic           0.006           0.006   3,200        	15
Storage, standard       0.004           0.0008  2             	15
Storage, synaptic       0.006           0.006 	1,600       	15

This seems about right, sure it makes robots cheaper, but at higher TLs 
they *should* be cheaper.  Fuel cells, grav modules, batteries, sensors,
and limbs still cost the same so they won't be dirt cheap.  Also, fancy
configurations like pseudo-bio robots will still be expensive, so I've no
real problem with this.

I'd make a few other changes as well: 

On page 44 it says:  "A robot with intelligence 0 will no perform properly
unless instructed by someone with Robot Ops skill, and a robot with
intelligence of 4- (a dumbot) requires supervision of its work at
occasional intervals." 

I'd limit low data robots to Int 0 regardless of TL and High Data robots
to Int 4 or less regardless of TL.  Having a Int 6 Low Data robot is possible
at higher tech levels, and simply doesn't make sense to me.

From the text it suggests that Low and High autonomous robots were the first
really practical robots, which suggests they are the only ones which can 
work unsupervised (ie Int 5+).  

Other than that, it's a great book and a great spreadsheet.

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:18:38 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Automated Human-Hiver translation

>>their own gear, translation of finger-wriggling would likely be both a
higher >TL
>>and less precise (lacking prolonged exposure to the Hiver in question).
...
>I can see that I was thinking pretty much 'humano-centric' here, as I
really hadn't considered the implications from a Hiver's point of view.
However, I would still consider that a sofisticated Language Translator
would be able to handle finger-wriggling as well. Granted, visual pattern
recognition is a more advanced technology than voice/speech recognition, but
certainly that technology must be in place before TL 15 as well.

  Presumably even at TL 13-15 there might be a (brief) learning period for
the system to learn to accurately read an individual Hivers signings - if
you assume that their will be individual idiosyncrasies.

  The question arose because I was looking at the TNE 25mm Hiver figure and
didn't see a clearly identifiable output device.

>Off course, the drawback here is the price of such a thing...

  Not a drawback to the Hiver nest that manufactures it :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:38:45 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Jumpspace

The other day while driving down the interstate, I was  pondering the
nature of jumpspace....
While this may not be canon, I don't believe it violates canon

Assumption 1: Light speed is not constant.  Instead it is inversely
proportional to gravity.
Assumption 2: Jumpspace has no inertia. If there was inertia, no amount
of compensators could keep crew from splattering on the bulkhead as they
accelerate/decelerate 3+ lightyears in one week.

At TL8, the use of Fusion reactors leads to better understanding of
subatomic particals. This leads to the understanding of Contragravitics
at TL 9 which allows for more  efficient insystem travel.

Late in TL 9, the relationship between gravity and lightspeed becomes
apparent as insystem travel becomes commonplace.  Applying some
subatomic theories on a macro-scale, similar to contragravitics, a
method is developed to generate a reduced inertia field. With inertia
reduced, accelerating to significant fractions of C becomes relatively
easy. Of course generating this inertia-less field is VERY energy
expensive. Travel within a system at FTL speeds becomes possible, but
relies on gravitational forces (albeit minute) to get from point A to
point B.  This later becomes known as Jump-0 capability.

Further advances in partical theory and beam focusing leads to a method
of transfering between the vastness of space to other systems.
Electrons are fired towards your destination while you generate a
positron cloud (stripped from protons) and suspend it within a magnetic
field.  The positrons are then attracted to the electrons which pull the
field and ship forward at a fraction of the speed of light.  As gravity
drops away, lightspeed increases and thus ship speed.  Hydrogen is used
due to its simple atomic structure. This is called Jump-1.  This comes
about at TL 10. Note that it takes about half a week to get out of the
microgravity into the near infinite speed between the stars.

From TL 11 to 15, improvements in focusing and energy production
technology allows for better targeting of the electron beam, thus
extending the range of jumps.  Since you're travelling at near infinite
between the stars most of the trip takes no time thus keeping the jump
time to about one week (half a week leaving a system and half a week
entering the target system)

With the drop off in beam focusing technology after TL 15 and the
inefficiency (42% of volume taken up by jumpdrive and fuel) of long jump
technology,  further advances are put on hold.  However, the
positron/electron anihilation observed in jump bubbles  does lead to
matter/antimatter technology (TL 17) and eventually jumps are applied on
a microscale (Teleportation, TL 18) and to weaponry (jump projectors, TL
21)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:10:12 -0500
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Spinward Marches Campaign for Sale

I just got this a few days ago. I wasn't planning on selling it, but I just
discovered I need a new set of tires for my car. So, I have to sell some
things, and I remember when I mentioned SMC earlier, a lot of people were
interested in buying it.

Anyway, it's in VG to Ex shape. Best offer over $20 by Weds. takes it. One
stipulation - buyer must pay with a US postal money order.

And if anyone is interested, I've got an extra copy of the Traveller
Starter set - contents are EX, box F. In case you're wondering, it's just a
different version of the CT rules - sort of like the Traveller Book spread
into two large softback books, minus some of the frills like Library Data.
But comes with two adventures - Shadows and Mission to Mithril (and a full
page map of Mithril). Anyone interested, make me an offer.

To bring this on more of a topic - to the person asking what Chirpers are -
they are uncasted droyne - detailed in Research Station Gamma. I'm not sure
they still have the ability to become Droyne or not...

                                               Jeremy
                                               frankpul@stlnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:17:31 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>
> The other day while driving down the interstate, I was  pondering the
> nature of jumpspace....
> While this may not be canon, I don't believe it violates canon
>
> Assumption 2: Jumpspace has no inertia. If there was inertia, no amount
> of compensators could keep crew from splattering on the bulkhead as they
> accelerate/decelerate 3+ lightyears in one week.

I always thought, at least according to canon, that one doesn't accelerate
or decelerate in J-Space at all.  Jump Space is outside the laws of our... 
um...  for lack of a better word, dimension.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:25:02 -0500
From: Greg Willis <jwillis@netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: World Builders Handbook

First of all, I would like to thank everybody who responded to my questions
about WBH.  I really appreciate it.

Now, I only have one more question to bother everybody with.  If I do happen to
find an old copy, about how much would be a reasonable price to pay?  A good
"guestimation" is ok by me since I am pretty sure most people are not up on the
current market price of used/old books :)  Again, thanks for all the help.

If you would rather, you can reply by personal e-mail so the natives don't get
too restless. :)


Greg (wondering what ever happened to Kenji...) Willis
jwillis@netdoor.com
______________________________________________________________________

 If you make something idiot proof, someone will make a better idiot.
______________________________________________________________________



Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> >Greg Willis wrote:
> >>
> >> Can anybody tell me where I could get the World Builders
> >> Handbook?  I can't seem to find it anywhere.
> [snip]
> >WBH was produced by Digest Group Publications for MT (my copy is sitting in
> >front of me now, as I am gen'ing up the system I will be using in my game
> >Friday).  It is well worth the money (as is virtually every Traveller
> >supplement
> >put out by that much missed company.)
> [snip]
>
> The important missing phrase WBH was produced by DGP for MT *in 1989 or
> 1990* (I think).
>
> The book is now out of print.  Your only hope of getting a copy is (1) It
> comes up for sale on this list or (more likely) rec.games.rpg.marketplace
> or (2) Roger Sanger (holder of the DGP copyrights) decides to allow
> reprinting of this tome and a few others which are still quite popular as
> gaming aids (such as the Starship Operator's Manual, 101 Vehicles, 101
> Robots, etc).  I cannot hold out much hope for either.
>
> While you are looking, you can get some (or lots) of the same information
> from equally difficult to locate books such as;
>
> Grand Census
> Grand Survey
> Scouts (CT book 6)
>
> Pete
>
>                       Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
> "A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
>   -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:55:19 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Chris Seamans wrote:

> > From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> >
> > The other day while driving down the interstate, I was  pondering the
> > nature of jumpspace....
> > While this may not be canon, I don't believe it violates canon
> >
> > Assumption 2: Jumpspace has no inertia. If there was inertia, no amount
> > of compensators could keep crew from splattering on the bulkhead as they
> > accelerate/decelerate 3+ lightyears in one week.
>
> I always thought, at least according to canon, that one doesn't accelerate
> or decelerate in J-Space at all.  Jump Space is outside the laws of our...
> um...  for lack of a better word, dimension.

I never was satisfied with the canonical reference to "the unique topology of
J-space".  If you disappear from A and reappear at B with no time lapse, I can
accept the conservation of momentum in that for no time does your momentum
change.  You simply move without changing velocity.

However, J-space doesn't work that way.  It takes a week.  Thus you break the
conservation of momentum twice (once when you enter jumpspace, once when you
return).  Since you move a finite distance in a finite time, you do have some
form of velocity.  In order for jumps to take the same amount of time
regardless of distance, the majority of the distance must be covered at a
speed approaching infinity.

My approach to the "unique topology of J-space" is to make it gravity
dependent (which the 10/100 diameter limit seems to imply).  An analogy would
be a skateboarder on top a plateau.  He takes a sighting of another plateau
and then blindfolds himself.  Then he races down the side of the plateau
accelerating as he hits the valley between them.  His top speed is in the
valley, but he's only there for a split second as he races up the other side.
Coming to a stop at the top of the other plateau.  There, he takes off the
blindfold and pushes himself around with his foot.  Note that if he didn't get
a good bearing, he could race right by his target plateau through the valley
until he slams into another one.  That would be a catastrophic misjump.

In any case, I haven't seen any canonical reference to
accelerating/decelerating in jumpspace at all.  But then again, I haven't seen
much of any references to jump space. Its always seemed to have a mysterious
magical "it just works" veil around it.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #390
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 14 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 391



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jumpspace 
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Foreven Sector Star Positions
Re: Jumpspace 
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #389
Re: Mailing Lists; (was Re: A Couple of Questions...)
Re: Jumpspace 
Older traveller products (Mega, TNE, Classic)
Older Traveller Products
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #386
TCS Stats for the whole Imperium -- 2nd try
Re: Space  Travel, RL
Re: World Builders Handbook 
Re: Pillaging worlds
Re: NERVA
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons
Re: PBEM's
re: Jumpsapce
Re: Jumpspace
Re: NERVA 
Re: Jumpspace 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:53:22 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace 

> 
> 
> Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
> > > From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> > >
> > > The other day while driving down the interstate, I was  pondering the
> > > nature of jumpspace....
> > > While this may not be canon, I don't believe it violates canon
> > >
> > > Assumption 2: Jumpspace has no inertia. If there was inertia, no amount
> > > of compensators could keep crew from splattering on the bulkhead as they
> > > accelerate/decelerate 3+ lightyears in one week.
> >
> > I always thought, at least according to canon, that one doesn't accelerate
> > or decelerate in J-Space at all.  Jump Space is outside the laws of our...
> > um...  for lack of a better word, dimension.
> 
> I never was satisfied with the canonical reference to "the unique topology of
> J-space".  If you disappear from A and reappear at B with no time lapse, I can
> accept the conservation of momentum in that for no time does your momentum
> change.  You simply move without changing velocity.
> 
> However, J-space doesn't work that way.  It takes a week.  Thus you break the
> conservation of momentum twice (once when you enter jumpspace, once when you
> return).  Since you move a finite distance in a finite time, you do have some
> form of velocity.  In order for jumps to take the same amount of time
> regardless of distance, the majority of the distance must be covered at a
> speed approaching infinity.
> 
> My approach to the "unique topology of J-space" is to make it gravity
> dependent (which the 10/100 diameter limit seems to imply).  An analogy would
> be a skateboarder on top a plateau.  He takes a sighting of another plateau
> and then blindfolds himself.  Then he races down the side of the plateau
> accelerating as he hits the valley between them.  His top speed is in the
> valley, but he's only there for a split second as he races up the other side.
> Coming to a stop at the top of the other plateau.  There, he takes off the
> blindfold and pushes himself around with his foot.  Note that if he didn't get
> a good bearing, he could race right by his target plateau through the valley
> until he slams into another one.  That would be a catastrophic misjump.
> 
> In any case, I haven't seen any canonical reference to
> accelerating/decelerating in jumpspace at all.  But then again, I haven't seen
> much of any references to jump space. Its always seemed to have a mysterious
> magical "it just works" veil around it.
> 

IMTU, I just declared that 'maybe 2 or 3 sophonts in Known Space understand 
how jumpspace works.  They all went crazy, and they haven't been seen in 
decades.'  For the ones who pressed the matter, I repeatedly reminded them 
that they didn't need to know how electricty works to turn on the lights.

Eventually, I came up with the 'superball theory'.  A ship opens up 2 holes in 
space connected by a 'tube'.  The 'length' of the tube is dependent on the 
jump number capability of the jump drives.  The ship then 'falls' into the 
tube, drops to the 'bottom', then bounces back and leaves the other hole in 
the new location.  No energy is lost in the transfer, and any energies picked 
up in the tube are used in the bounce back to normal space.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:11:38 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
Eventually, I came up with the 'superball theory'.  A ship opens up 2 holes in

> space connected by a 'tube'.  The 'length' of the tube is dependent on the
> jump number capability of the jump drives.  The ship then 'falls' into the
> tube, drops to the 'bottom', then bounces back and leaves the other hole in
> the new location.  No energy is lost in the transfer, and any energies picked
> up in the tube are used in the bounce back to normal space.

You realize of course that your "superball theory" works the same way as my
"skateboard theory".  You accelerate to the bottom of the tube (where you're moving
at maximum velocity) then you decelerate back up the tube.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:55:46 EDT
From: GypsyComet <GypsyComet@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Foreven Sector Star Positions

"Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com> asks:


>Subject: Foreven Sector Star Positions
>
>...Do any of you know if there's anywhere online that I
>could find the star position data for the Foreven sector? I would
>just gen it from scratch, but I'd like to keep the sector as close to
>canon as possible.

  This is now up on my page. The dotmap is derived from the
Imperiallines #1 article from the end of the MegaTraveller era.
GDW set the sector aside as a Referee's Preserve for the most part,
so you wan't find anything official aside from this one (rather rare
and obscure) article.

GypsyComet

<http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.com> in the Zhodani section...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:17:17 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace 

> 
> 
> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> Eventually, I came up with the 'superball theory'.  A ship opens up 2 holes in
> 
> > space connected by a 'tube'.  The 'length' of the tube is dependent on the
> > jump number capability of the jump drives.  The ship then 'falls' into the
> > tube, drops to the 'bottom', then bounces back and leaves the other hole in
> > the new location.  No energy is lost in the transfer, and any energies picked
> > up in the tube are used in the bounce back to normal space.
> 
> You realize of course that your "superball theory" works the same way as my
> "skateboard theory".  You accelerate to the bottom of the tube (where you're moving
> at maximum velocity) then you decelerate back up the tube.
> 

Works for me...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:46:15
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #389

>Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:48:00 +0100
>From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
>Subject: Viability of Longhaul Trade
>
>[Did some analysis on the weekend...]
>
>
>
>Viability of Longhaul Trade
>
>When considering the question of what commodities are traded between the
>stars and how far it is profitable to trade them some analysis is useful.
>The standard price for transport is set at 1000Cr  per displacement ton.
>(The accuracy of that figure is another debate.) A displacement ton is 13.5
>cubic meters, or 13,500 liters. A simple division gives us a number of
>.075Cr to transport 1 liter one jump.

Not quite. You have to add in the cost of the time the good will be in
transit. This is very signifigant with extermely high value goods.

You also have to use the 'real' cost of transport, not the silly
Cr1000/jump number. I would use Hans' table - remember, your freight is
someone else's speculative cargo.

>In order for goods to be profitable at their final destination, their cost
>of transport can't be too  high. For the purposes of this analysis we will
>pick the arbitrary number of 10% as our cutoff point. In other words, we
>will assume that as long as the cost of transport is less than 10% of the
>final sale price, imported goods can compete with local goods.

I think this is conservative ... given economies of scale, you should be
able to get cost reductions of more than 10% through specialisation and
exchange.

>Therefore, if one was to transport an object taking up 1 liter 1 jump, the
>cost of transport would be .075Cr, and the final sale price could be no
>more than .75Cr. If you were transporting the same object 50 jumps (the
>approximate length of the Spinward Main) it would cost 3.7Cr for transport
>and the final price would have to be at least 37Cr to still compete.

If you are transporting something 50 parsecs, dont take it on a jump-1
freighter. It just isnt cost-effective.

>This may seem a bit steep, but when you compare it against the cost and
>volume of known items it turns out that a very wide variety of goods are
>profitable, even when shipped hundreds of jumps. The table below is
>compiled from data from the Referee?s Manual, and the Imperial
>Encyclopedia. In fact, very few items there were sufficiently high-bulk,
>low value not to be worth trading.

Yes.

>Even if you are more cynical and assume that the transport price can be no
>more than 1% of the final price, that 1000Cr/ton is too little, that
>import/export tariffs, space loss due to packing, or other such things
>combine to decrease the profitability be even two orders of magnitude (100
>times more expensive than my assumptions) there are still a significant
>number of profitable items.

Yes.

>In the table below Item is the name in the books for the commodity, TL is
>the tech level I used for the vol/cost calculations, and Jumps is the
>number of jumps that you can ship the item such that the cost of transport
>is less than 10% of the final price.

<stuff deleted> I have done similar analysis with the intermediate goods in
FFS2. The end result is the same - you can transport many goods a long,
long way for 10% of their cost.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:14:21 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Mailing Lists; (was Re: A Couple of Questions...)

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> The Trav-Tech Mailing list; send email to trav-tech-request@qrc.com with
> the word subscribe in the message.  This list is specifically gear-head
> oriented and discussions of how many jump torpedos can dance in the hold of
> a billion ton starship and how many planets may be sacrificed to built such
> a ship, in grams, with scientific notation, may be rampant.

Is this list running? I have tried to subscribe it twice, and all I got
was a few mesages saying that my request is sent to list organizers for
approval.

- --
Mikko Parviainen
 IMTU tc+ tm++ tn+ ru+ ge++ 3i+ jt-- jd++ pi au st- ls kk hi++ dr++ as+
va+ so- zh+ da++ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:20:29 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace 

> 
> 
> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> > Eventually, I came up with the 'superball theory'.  A ship opens up 2 holes in 
> > space connected by a 'tube'.  The 'length' of the tube is dependent on the
> > jump number capability of the jump drives.  The ship then 'falls' into the
> > tube, drops to the 'bottom', then bounces back and leaves the other hole in
> > the new location.  No energy is lost in the transfer, and any energies picked
> > up in the tube are used in the bounce back to normal space.
> 
> You realize of course that your "superball theory" works the same way as my
> "skateboard theory".  You accelerate to the bottom of the tube (where you're moving
> at maximum velocity) then you decelerate back up the tube.
> 

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Kinda like the underground gravity powered trains they've been talking about 
for the last umteen years.  You dig a tunnel between here & there in a 
straight line.  Pump out the air, & line it with superconductor magnets big 
enough to let the tunnel car slide thru without tearing up the ring magnets.  
The car accellerates til it hits midpoint, then decellerates.  Thing is, a 
trip *anywhere*, regardless of actuall length, takes about 20 mins.

*HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM*.  There's an analogy for ya...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:37:13 -0400
From: Matthew Harelick <matth@cybernex.net>
Subject: Older traveller products (Mega, TNE, Classic)

Hi:

If you are ever in NYC, check out the Compleat Strategist at 33rd
between 5th and Lex(?).

This store, and only this one of the franchise has alot of old traveller
material hanging around. They
sell the stuff at the old cover price too. The last time I was there a
few months ago they even had an
old Tarsus set there.

Matthew Harelick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:50:25 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Older Traveller Products

Matthew Harelick wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If you are ever in NYC, check out the Compleat Strategist at 33rd
between 5th and Lex(?).

This store, and only this one of the franchise has alot of old traveller
material hanging around. They
sell the stuff at the old cover price too. The last time I was there a
few months ago they even had an
old Tarsus set there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Very nice shop, a close contender with Rochester, NY's Crazy Egor's
Game Emporium for the best source in the American Northeast for
out of print and hard to find gaming stuff. I'll be in the Big Apple
next week for a training seminar, Compleat Strategist is on
my short list of places to stop...Martian Metals, Dark Horse
and Metal Magic sci-fi miniatures, here I come!!  :)

Speaking of Crazy Egor's in Rochester - last time I was there
(about 2 years ago), he had some of the original 15mm
Traveller minis in stock. Just for anyone who is looking...


Walt Smith
- ----------------------------------------
The mome rath hasn't been born that can outgrabe me...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:32:22 -0500
From: "Donald E McKinney" <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #386

>Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:55:39 +0100
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #375
>
>Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com> wrote:
>
>Writen by me>> Really. Look at Dune, forex. The whole culture is one based
>around honour
>>> and ethics (eg Kanly) yet non of the Landsraad so much as blinks when
the
>>> Harkonnen's butcher the Atreides and their retainers.
>>
>>AGREED.  100%.  But would you want to run a campaign in this universe?
>>No.
>
>I would (but there again I like the feel of Cyberpunk, Vampire and Elric
>and I see the later Imperium as a society that has stabilised and can
>afford ethical niceties). You may disagree...


Ahh...  then you and I come from totally different perspectives in SF gaming
:)

>>Anyway, look at the Chanestin world UPPs in the 1100s - boring TL, yawn
>>worlds.  In M:0, these guys almost kill the Imperium before it starts.
>>Guess what got bombed back to the stone age.
>
>Yep, IIRC the capital of the Chanestin is Keshi which is somewhat dead in
>M0. Remember - the Imperium my forbid member states the use of nukes but
>reserves the right to use them itself.


You're agreeing here?

>>Further, the real villian of the piece is this Lentuli guy.  The PCs (by
>>the year 0) are Cleon's close associates.  But this Lentuli guy shows
>>up around the time of the end of the Chanestin War, and appeals to all
>>of Cleon's bad feelings.  A few drinks and an arranged romance later,
>>Lentuli is on the fast track for making the Imperium a not too friendly
>>place.
>>
>>And our PCs are wondering what happened...
>
>;-) Like it.


All I'm saying is:
1)    there should be a "nobler" side to M:0
2)    Cleon as presented is very one-dimensional
3)    how much actual game play did the ideas in M:0 get before print?


>>Hey, I don't deny that.  But allow your players to live on the same
>>idealism the Victorians did to justify their actions, and produce the same
>>noble individuals who bucked the system as well.
>
>Yes, I agree. In my game the players will not be seeing the nasty side of
>the Imperium at first, or maybe ever. It's not mentioned in polite
>society...


So you're not playing 'in book' M:0 either...

>>Insert Rudyard Kipling's 'The White Man's Burden' here...
>>We should have brought some of that nobility from Space: 1889 over to M:0.
>
>Where's "Nobles" when you need it...?

No offense, but if it was written like the other books, it would probably be
set in the same vein....


DonM.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:26:50 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: TCS Stats for the whole Imperium -- 2nd try

>>You can find TCS stats for
>> the whole Imperium up in
>> ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/tcs.zip

>Jo, I tried to access the above URL and received the following:

Sorry, I sent it to the wrong directory. Duh. That's twice in a row now.
Anyway, it is in the above place now. Enjoy.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:06:24 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Space  Travel, RL

>Actually, George "TML's Resident Rocket Scientist" Herbert classified
>the Space Shuttle Main Engine and various recent Russian engines as TL-8
>(which I'm still not sure I agree with, but that's a "philosophy of TL"
>issue.)
>
>Bruce

The shuttle give you 450-500 isp and NERVA was 1100-1300 right? Classifying
the shuttle as TL 8 is akin to saying that todays state of the art mountain
bikes are TL 8 and therefore we should fly the shuttle with them.

Fission rockets are at such an advantage compared to chemical ones that TL
5-6 ones easily outperform anything chemical no matter the TL.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:32:05 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: World Builders Handbook 

> >Greg Willis wrote:
> >>
> >> Can anybody tell me where I could get the World Builders
> >> Handbook?  I can't seem to find it anywhere.
> [snip]
> While you are looking, you can get some (or lots) of the same information
> from equally difficult to locate books such as;
> 
> Grand Census
> Grand Survey
> Scouts (CT book 6)

Greg, email me directly, I've got ALL these.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:10:12 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Pillaging worlds

>I think Anders was trying to say that he doesn't use a standard fusion
>plant in his game. Isn't the spinning mass/magnetics thing a bit like a
>2300 MHD turbine?
>
>Dom

Yes and no. You could say that my fusion plants are fusion plants with MHD
turbines but the 2300 (and FF&S ones) are chemically powered MHD plants.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:22:21 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: NERVA

>and we lack a pressing application for a high-ISP
>upper stage.

...can we say Mars! OK, I agree that most politicos doesn't consider manned
Mars missions pressing...


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:25:16 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>Assumption 1: Light speed is not constant.  Instead it is inversely
>proportional to gravity.

Think a bit about the ramifications of this with stuff we know now. It's
akin to assumption 1: Earth is flat and we're gods creation from some 5000
years ago.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:03:08 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Anders Backman wrote:

> >Assumption 1: Light speed is not constant.  Instead it is inversely
> >proportional to gravity.
>
> Think a bit about the ramifications of this with stuff we know now. It's
> akin to assumption 1: Earth is flat and we're gods creation from some 5000
> years ago.
>

I think there was a computer game based on that premise...

Seriously though, the light speed assumption isn't so far fetched.  We do know
that gravity affects light's velocity (it can be bent).  I don't believe we've
had concrete analysis of lightspeed outside our gravity well.  So, within our
constant gravity, c is constant.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:19:55 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Sensors and Tracking Weapons

>away at him. My question is, at what level of technology would this sort of
>stuff and the above be possible? And if it can track gauss slugs back, can it
>also track normal slug throwers back to their origin? This could have a very
>important and unforeseen consequences both for the life span of snipers in the
>Far Future, and for an ambush I'm planning in an upcoming slug fest this week
>in the Not So Far Future...

There was a piece on Discovery channel about a image analysis
software/hardware combo that could track bullets to the firer in near
realtime. It gave the shot trajectories with say 0.5 seconds delay right on
the screen. The thing was intended for soldiers and police versus snipers
etc.

No - they didn't have the cool predator camouflage stuff ;-)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:29:36 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: PBEM's

Well, I've been considering using the campaign I'm (slowly) putting
together as a PBeM.  I've never run a PBeM before, and haven't run a face
to face in, oh, about 10 years, but I'll sure give it a shot.  The
campaign is not canon, and humaniti is not the greatest power around.  I
call it The Scattered Worlds, and if anyone is really interested, and
doesn't mind a green GM, let me know.  I'll probably only take 5 or 6
players at most.  

Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., aka, Unit JAC of the Line, Ogre Mk V
Borg:  You will be assimilated!  Hiver:  wiggle, shake, shake, bounce,
wobble, shimmy.  Borg:  Ummm, well, we'll get back to ya......
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
You might be a Traveller player if...You call the mailman the X-boat..

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:58:07 +0000 "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@glasscity.net> writes:
>Anybody running a Traveller PBEM wanting a player, or want to *START* 
>a PBEM?

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:32:47 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Jumpsapce

Joe Petit wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Seriously though, the light speed assumption isn't so far fetched.  We do know
that gravity affects light's velocity (it can be bent).  I don't believe we've
had concrete analysis of lightspeed outside our gravity well.  So, within our
constant gravity, c is constant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Except that the gravity wells we've been in aren't constant. Remember, 
we've sent unmanned probes deeper into the solar gravity well, out of the 
Terran gravity well and into the Jovian/Saturnian/etc gravity wells, we've
even sent a probe or two that's gone out of the solar system. We've used 
light-speed communications to talk to these probes, we haven't seen a 
variation in the speed of light yet.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:53:06 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>I think there was a computer game based on that premise...
>
>Seriously though, the light speed assumption isn't so far fetched.  We do know
>that gravity affects light's velocity (it can be bent).  I don't believe we've
>had concrete analysis of lightspeed outside our gravity well.  So, within our
>constant gravity, c is constant.

We've measured the speed of light on Earth, from Earth to moon and back
again, to the moons of jupiter and back again etc and we've gotten the smae
answer everywhere.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:24:20 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: NERVA 

> >and we lack a pressing application for a high-ISP
> >upper stage.
> 
> ...can we say Mars! OK, I agree that most politicos doesn't consider manned
> Mars missions pressing...

Can we say Jovian censored moons????

I expect Mars to pretty much be a bustout, but the Jovian moons should be 
worth living on...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:32:31 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace 

> >I think there was a computer game based on that premise...
> >
> >Seriously though, the light speed assumption isn't so far fetched.  We do know
> >that gravity affects light's velocity (it can be bent).  I don't believe we've
> >had concrete analysis of lightspeed outside our gravity well.  So, within our
> >constant gravity, c is constant.
> 
> We've measured the speed of light on Earth, from Earth to moon and back
> again, to the moons of jupiter and back again etc and we've gotten the smae
> answer everywhere.

However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #391
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 14 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 392



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Startown Metro-Web
Re: Jumpspace
Adv. Chargen (Was Re: Uniforms II)
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Space  Travel, RL / NERVA
Forward: SOK Folding
Re: Jumpspace 
Re: Jumpspace
MT Conversions
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace 
Re: Jumpspace 
Re: Jumpspace 
Re: Jumpspace 
Re: Space Travel, RL / NERVA 
FREE  MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Adv. Chargen (Was Re: Uniforms II)
Re: Robots Ideas
Re: Jumpspace

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:57:51 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Startown Metro-Web

Just how fast is the Infoweb you can access
from your starship at the starport? Here's the
TL8 version...

"INDUSTRY GIVES TO INTERNET2

W A S H I N G T O N,   April 14 - Three high-tech
communications companies will offer an ultra-fast
data pipeline and some of the needed network
equipment as part of a $500 million contribution
toward developing the next generation of the
Internet. 
     "We will end the days when the World Wide Web is
known by some as the world wide wait," said Vice President
Al Gore, who announced the contributions today at the White
House. 
     The revolutionary network-so fast it will transmit the
contents of the 30-volume Encyclopedia Brittanica in one
second-will make possible new ways of using computers,
from long-distance learning to allowing a specialist in another
city to look at real-time images of a beating heart and make a
diagnosis. "

For additional details, check out:

http://www.abcnews.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:09:17 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.
>
>Keven

Eh, what is actually your notion of a gravity well? How far does it extend
into space?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:09:55 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Adv. Chargen (Was Re: Uniforms II)

Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> TravelrTNE wrote:
>
> > ob trav...  The one thing I really liked for MT rules set (love all the
> > background stuff) was Advanced character gen.  Of course i prefer TNE/t2k
> Hear Hear! I hope an advanced Chargen is brought back for T4.1.. Maybe an idea for a
> BITS-Series?

Funny you should say this, I've almost finished developing an advanced chargensystem based
on Mercenary and High Guard, but I want it to be thorough
across as many careers as possible.  To do this I need whatever Chargen stuff there
is in Merchant Prince.  Not the details but whatever parallel there is to Branches
and Assignments as depicted in Merc. and High Guard.

If any one could post or send such, assuming it exists, I will quickly post my advanced
chargen proposal.

Thanks

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:08:26 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > >I think there was a computer game based on that premise...
> > >
> > >Seriously though, the light speed assumption isn't so far fetched.  We do know
> > >that gravity affects light's velocity (it can be bent).  I don't believe we've
> > >had concrete analysis of lightspeed outside our gravity well.  So, within our
> > >constant gravity, c is constant.
> >
> > We've measured the speed of light on Earth, from Earth to moon and back
> > again, to the moons of jupiter and back again etc and we've gotten the smae
> > answer everywhere.
>
> However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.

Exactly!  I've run my formula (based on actual parsec travel outside the gravity well
taking 1 minute) and you don't see a REALLY noticable jump in light speed until orbit
zone 10 or 11 (58,000 light seconds).  This same formula doesn't cross the light year
boundary until day 3 hour 2:56.  Within the jump bubble, you're always moving at
about 1/5th c (its just that c increases exponentially.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:13:06 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Anders Backman wrote:

> >However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.
> >
> >Keven
>
> Eh, what is actually your notion of a gravity well? How far does it extend
> into space?

Seeing as how Pluto orbits the sun, we can assume that the sun's gravity extends to
Pluto AT LEAST.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:15:03 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Space  Travel, RL / NERVA

>The shuttle give you 450-500 isp and NERVA was 1100-1300 right?
The NERVA prototypes that actually worked were closer to 800; since the 
thrust-to-weight is so terrible, you end up with a lot of weight of 
engine (assuming you want to be able to use NERVA as a first stage) and
not much real advantage over chemical rockets.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:18:13 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Forward: SOK Folding

Forwarded for your information, direct from the source:

> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:01:06 -0400 (EDT)
> X-Sender: hdhale0@pop.uky.edu
> From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
> Subject: [TWG] Re: SOK Folding
>
> At 03:33 PM 4/13/98 -0500, Paul Kerby wrote:
> >Harold,
> >I just read on FASA's AOL bulletin board that SOK is folding.  Where does 
> >that put the future of TCC, assuming you can answer at this time?
>
>   I had anticipated this coming out of the closet, so here is the official
> press release.  I would be grateful if someone would also forward it to the
> Traveller Mailing List:
>
> April 14, 1998
>
>   After 13 issues and a lot of blood, sweat and tears, Sword of the Knight
> Publications has decided to discontinue publication of Traveller Chronicle
> and its other RPG magazines.  The decision was based primarily upon Kevin's
> desire to pursue other interests, not any pending financial disaster.
>
>   Starjoy Publishing, a company new to the field of RPGs, is currently in
> negotiations to take over the publication of Traveller Chronicle.  When
> these negotiations are completed, publication will resume immediately with
> Traveller Chronicle issue #14.  I will be continuing as editor of the 
> magazine.
>
>   At this time I do not have any details regarding subscriptions, but rest
> assured if you are still owned issues on a subscription, you will be
> compensated in some fashion (either monetarily or through having your
> subscription continued under the new publisher).
>
>   I look forward to the new relationship with Starjoy, and hope you like
> the changes it has in store for the magazine over the next year.  One thing
> will not change however, and that is TTC's commitment to supporting
> Traveller in all its forms.
>
>   More news as the situation warrants.
>
> Regards,
>
> Harold D. Hale
> Editor-in-Chief
> Traveller Chronicle


wildstar@qrc.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's Science Fiction, if, presuming technical competence on the part of
 the writer, he genuinely believes it could happen." --- John W. Campbell

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:22:58 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace 

>> We've measured the speed of light on Earth, from Earth to moon and back
>> again, to the moons of jupiter and back again etc and we've gotten the smae
>> answer everywhere.

>However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.

Measurements of the fine structure of various spectral lines implicitly
measure the speed of light (to within a part in 10^3 or 10^4). Such measurements
have been performed for interstellar clouds that aren't in anyones
gravity well. No real evidence for variability of the speed of light.  

Also, if there was a significant variation in the speed of light between
us and Voyager or Pioneer (which are out past Pluto), we
would notice.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:26:46 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > >I think there was a computer game based on that premise...
> > >
> > >Seriously though, the light speed assumption isn't so far fetched.  We do know
> > >that gravity affects light's velocity (it can be bent).  I don't believe we've
> > >had concrete analysis of lightspeed outside our gravity well.  So, within our
> > >constant gravity, c is constant.
> >
> > We've measured the speed of light on Earth, from Earth to moon and back
> > again, to the moons of jupiter and back again etc and we've gotten the smae
> > answer everywhere.
> 
> However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.
> 

So what you are saying, if I understand the thread correctly, is that because we
are measuring the speed of light within the gravity well of SOL, our
measurements are innaccurate?

This would mean that there is a constant, but (AFAIK) currently undetected,
red/blue shifting of starlight depending on where Earth is located in relation
to the individual star and SOL.

By this I mean:

*                      *  *                  *
^                      ^  ^                  ^
|                      |  |                  |
Star 1               SOL  Earth              Star 2

At one point of Earth's orbit around Sol, Star 1 is on the far side of Sol from
the earth.  According to your theory, the light from Star 1 would be affected by
SOLs gravity field, and decelarate from Earth's perspective, as it loses energy
escaping the far side of the field.  This would cause a detectable red shift in
the light spectrum, would it not?  And the light from Star 2, accelerating down
the gravity well towards SOL, would have a detectable blue shift as it races
past Earth.

That would also mean that at a later point in Earth's orbit: 
*                   *  *                     *
^                   ^  ^                     ^
|                   |  |                     |
Star 1          Earth  SOL                   Star 2

The two stars have effectively changed positions with respect to earth.  Now
Star 1's light, instead of laboring up the gravity well from SOL, is still
rushing down towards it.  And Star 2's light is now working up the slope.  The
spectrum shifts from each should have reversed themselves.

This, to the best of my knowledge, has not been documented and that the Speed of
Light is a constant.  Am I wrong?

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:52:34 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: MT Conversions

OK, fellow gearheads, anybody have any formulas for translating 
GURPS/TNE/T4 weaponry to MT? I looked over the 3G3 description
on the BTRC website and it didn't mention converting from other
gaming systems *to* MT.

Help!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:53:35 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Douglas Glatz wrote:

> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> >
> > > >I think there was a computer game based on that premise...
> > > >
> > > >Seriously though, the light speed assumption isn't so far fetched.  We do know
> > > >that gravity affects light's velocity (it can be bent).  I don't believe we've
> > > >had concrete analysis of lightspeed outside our gravity well.  So, within our
> > > >constant gravity, c is constant.
> > >
> > > We've measured the speed of light on Earth, from Earth to moon and back
> > > again, to the moons of jupiter and back again etc and we've gotten the smae
> > > answer everywhere.
> >
> > However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.
> >
>
> So what you are saying, if I understand the thread correctly, is that because we
> are measuring the speed of light within the gravity well of SOL, our
> measurements are innaccurate?
>

not innaccurate, biased.

> This would mean that there is a constant, but (AFAIK) currently undetected,
> red/blue shifting of starlight depending on where Earth is located in relation
> to the individual star and SOL.

There is a measurable red shifting.

>
>
> By this I mean:
>
> *                      *  *                  *
> ^                      ^  ^                  ^
> |                      |  |                  |
> Star 1               SOL  Earth              Star 2
>
> At one point of Earth's orbit around Sol, Star 1 is on the far side of Sol from
> the earth.  According to your theory, the light from Star 1 would be affected by
> SOLs gravity field, and decelarate from Earth's perspective, as it loses energy
> escaping the far side of the field.  This would cause a detectable red shift in
> the light spectrum, would it not?  And the light from Star 2, accelerating down
> the gravity well towards SOL, would have a detectable blue shift as it races
> past Earth.
>
> That would also mean that at a later point in Earth's orbit:
> *                   *  *                     *
> ^                   ^  ^                     ^
> |                   |  |                     |
> Star 1          Earth  SOL                   Star 2
>
> The two stars have effectively changed positions with respect to earth.  Now
> Star 1's light, instead of laboring up the gravity well from SOL, is still
> rushing down towards it.  And Star 2's light is now working up the slope.  The
> spectrum shifts from each should have reversed themselves.
>
> This, to the best of my knowledge, has not been documented and that the Speed of
> Light is a constant.  Am I wrong?

The whole red shifting thing requires more thought (I'm not a stellar physicist) but I
do know that all stars have a red shift.  One theory is that Earth is in the center of
the universe and everything is moving out from it.  Another theory would be that as
stars move out from the center of the universe, they accelerate.   Thus all stars would
still be red shifted.  This is all from my jr. High science class (close to 13 years
ago) so I'm not 100% certain of it.

But the real problem  with your hypothesis is that compared to stellar distances and
gravities, the Earth may as well not exist. Another problem is that while light may
accelerate outside the gravity well, it decelerates inside it.  So, you don't see the
change.

Keep in mind that the speed of light is slowed by the presence of a gravity well, it
doesn't accelerate into the well (well it does that too).  Hmm... what is the
implication of black holes with this theory?  Light would get deflected into the Black
Hole, but its velocity would slow down.  This then brings to mind the question, how
much gravity is needed to bring light to a stop?  Probably infinite concidering the
inverse proportionality of my theory...

Its all so mind boggling...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:05:43 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> >> We've measured the speed of light on Earth, from Earth to moon and back
> >> again, to the moons of jupiter and back again etc and we've gotten the smae
> >> answer everywhere.
>
> >However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.
>
> Measurements of the fine structure of various spectral lines implicitly
> measure the speed of light (to within a part in 10^3 or 10^4). Such measurements
> have been performed for interstellar clouds that aren't in anyones
> gravity well. No real evidence for variability of the speed of light.
>

I don't know enough about that to be able to comment on it.

> Also, if there was a significant variation in the speed of light between
> us and Voyager or Pioneer (which are out past Pluto), we
> would notice.

Here's part of the bias.  Presumably you're using light to measure the location of
the planets and thus its distance.  If lightspeed isn't constant, then you'll get a
biased distance.  If you then use this distance and measure the reflection time, the
bias will show up in its velocity.  I'm also not too sure how accurate those
distances are measured.  Until we actually throw a tape measure out to Pluto to get
a non-light measurement, we can't be sure that our measuring methods aren't
influencing the results.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:12:56 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace 

> 
> 
> Anders Backman wrote:
> 
> > >However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.
> > >
> > >Keven
> >
> > Eh, what is actually your notion of a gravity well? How far does it extend
> > into space?
> 
> Seeing as how Pluto orbits the sun, we can assume that the sun's gravity extends to
> Pluto AT LEAST.
> 

Not to mention the Oort Cloud.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:18:39 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace 

> 
> >> We've measured the speed of light on Earth, from Earth to moon and back
> >> again, to the moons of jupiter and back again etc and we've gotten the smae
> >> answer everywhere.
> 
> >However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.
> 
> Measurements of the fine structure of various spectral lines implicitly
> measure the speed of light (to within a part in 10^3 or 10^4). Such measurements
> have been performed for interstellar clouds that aren't in anyones
> gravity well. No real evidence for variability of the speed of light.  
> 
> Also, if there was a significant variation in the speed of light between
> us and Voyager or Pioneer (which are out past Pluto), we
> would notice.
> 
> Bruce

Hovever, the *instruments* registering these readings are still in the gravity 
well, either on Earth or still climbing out thru the Oort Clouds.

Think of it like this.  On the Autobaun in Germany, there is no speed limit.  
However, along parts of it, the Autobaun goes directly through towns and has 
stoplights on it.  Interstellar 'flat' space, outside any distorting gravity 
well, would be where you'd do the 150mph+ speeds, but you'd slow it down to 30 
or 40 in town.  Got it?

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:22:20 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace 

> >However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.
> >
> >Keven
> 
> Eh, what is actually your notion of a gravity well? How far does it extend
> into space?
> 
> 
> /Anders Backman
> Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se
> 
> 
Probably a good half-lightyear out or so.  Remember, there are some serious 
long-period comets out in the Oort Cloud the other side of Neptune (currently 
the furthest known planet from the Sun.  And yeah, the Oort Cloud is inside 
Sol's gravwell, since these objects are still in orbit around the Sun.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:24:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace 

On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> > Anders Backman wrote:
> > > >However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.
> > > >
> > > >Keven
> > >
> > > Eh, what is actually your notion of a gravity well? How far does it extend
> > > into space?
> > 
> > Seeing as how Pluto orbits the sun, we can assume that the sun's gravity extends to
> > Pluto AT LEAST.
> > 
> 
> Not to mention the Oort Cloud.

All gravity fields extend to infinity.  They just decrease as you get
farther and farther away.  Eventually, you can't detect them anymore,
but they're still there.

Given that gravity varies continuously, if the speed of light was
dependant on local gravity, you'd get some strange curving as light
moved through the solar system.  I think that our space probes would
have noticed this as they moved around and through planetary gravity
fields.  Of course, that's in *our* universe.  In a game universe,
you could just say that this is true and that it had been noticed
from very early on.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:25:09 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Space Travel, RL / NERVA 

> 
> >The shuttle give you 450-500 isp and NERVA was 1100-1300 right?
> The NERVA prototypes that actually worked were closer to 800; since the 
> thrust-to-weight is so terrible, you end up with a lot of weight of 
> engine (assuming you want to be able to use NERVA as a first stage) and
> not much real advantage over chemical rockets.
> 

Those were 1st generation NERVAs, Bruce.  Obviously, had we continued 
developing this technology, we would be approaching the theoretical 1100-1300.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:47:25 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: FREE  MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, now that I have your attention, I expected more of a response to my
PBeM post from earlier today.  Maybe I'm just not waiting long enough. 
I'd really love to get something going, lemme know!!!

Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., aka, Unit JAC of the Line, Ogre Mk V
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
You might be a Traveller player if...You call the mailman the X-boat..

On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:29:36 -0400 warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
writes:
>Well, I've been considering using the campaign I'm (slowly) putting 
>together as a PBeM.  I've never run a PBeM before, and haven't run a 
>face to face in, oh, about 10 years, but I'll sure give it a shot.  
>The campaign is not canon, and humaniti is not the greatest power 
>around.  I call it The Scattered Worlds, and if anyone is really 
>interested, and doesn't mind a green GM, let me know.  I'll probably 
>only take 5 or 6 players at most.  

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:00:46 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Adv. Chargen (Was Re: Uniforms II)

I have a copy of Merchant Prince. What do you need? BTW, I suggest a Law
Enforcement career option. I was disappointed that one never existed in CT. I
got very good at modifying other military characters into field investigators
and agents, but it never was entirely satisfactory to me.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:11:57 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Robots Ideas

>I've been playing around with the wonderful Robot spreadsheet Andrew
>Aiken (sp?) created.

I think its Akins, but we know who you mean.

>It's great, but it points out a crucial problem with the robot brains,
>they are simply too big and too expensive at higher tech levels.
[snip]
>Price, volume, and weight are all halved for every TL above the one where
>they were introduced:
>
>So at TL 15 we have
>
>Type                    Vol (liters)    Wt (kg) Cost CR         TL
>CPU, linear             0.0016          0.0008     4	      	15
>CPU, parallel           0.008           0.0016  150       	15
>CPU, synaptic           0.006           0.006   3,200        	15
>Storage, standard       0.004           0.0008  2             	15
>Storage, synaptic       0.006           0.006 	1,600       	15
>
>This seems about right, sure it makes robots cheaper, but at higher TLs
>they *should* be cheaper.

Hmmm, this progression is not how many other things in traveller progress.
Generally we see (as in the case of EMS Active Sensors) a leveling off at
some high tech level after a few incremental increases.  So, under MT AEMS
(from the MT Referees Manual)

TL:      	10	11	12	14
Distant	        0.002 	0.001 	0.001 	0.001
V. Distant	0.010 	0.008 	0.006 	0.005
Regional	0.030 	0.016 	0.010 	0.008
Continental	0.070 	0.030 	0.016 	0.010
Planetary	0.130 	0.060 	0.025 	0.014
Far Orbit	0.260 	0.120 	0.055 	0.030

This table shows the mass in tons, volume and price are proportional.  Note
that the improvement from TL10 to TL11 is on the order of half (TL11 is 50%
of TL10), but that TL11 to TL12 is generally incremental, with more
improvement to the larger models as miniaturization takes its toll, but the
already-smaller models find it more difficult to squeeze components more.

This trend repeats in many other items from that sequence.

So rather than the dramatic improvement you propose, I would advocate a
halving of the *improvement ratio* for each tech level, and institute some
minimum volumes.

So one TL after introduction, numbers are halved.  Two TLs higher numbers
are multipliesd by half then .75, three TLs are multiplied by half, then
.75, then 87.5, and so on.

That's a counterproposal.  Now here's why I, as a GM, would never implement
*any* reductions IMTU.  Make these components that cheap and your players
will never have to deal with NPC crew ever again.  NPC crews are very
useful for everything from plot evolution to comic relief, and replacing
them with robots has proved problematic for me in two seperate long term
campaigns.

Recently, a player designed an engineering robot (not using Andrew's SS
alas) that was to be backup engineer and medic.  The original design had to
fiddled, prodded, refit, many items dropped (for volume considerations) and
we had trouble coming in under 1 Mcr.  *thats* the way it should be in my
opinion.  Talented robots should be expensive, otherwise humans would be
out of work and robots would be omnipresent, even in backwaters.

Economically, any company with the capital to invest will buy a robot
rather than employ a person.  Over my (45 year) work lifetime I will
probably cost my employers (in vaguely constant dollars) $3.2 Million
(assumes 3% annual avg increases, staring sal of $25k, and Emp. Benefits
cost of 40% of sal-which is kinda low).  If that employer could buy two
robots, each with a  20 year lifetime for about $2 million that could do my
job more consistently (though probably not better) and without losing the
robots to another employer (and all cost associated withthat problem) then
you bet they would do that!

Even if the company doesn't have the cash up front, I'm certain that the
robot dealership would consider financing :).

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:32:52 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Bolie Williams IV wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> > > Anders Backman wrote:
> > > > >However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.
> > > > >
> > > > >Keven
> > > >
> > > > Eh, what is actually your notion of a gravity well? How far does it extend
> > > > into space?
> > >
> > > Seeing as how Pluto orbits the sun, we can assume that the sun's gravity extends to
> > > Pluto AT LEAST.
> > >
> >
> > Not to mention the Oort Cloud.
>
> All gravity fields extend to infinity.  They just decrease as you get
> farther and farther away.  Eventually, you can't detect them anymore,
> but they're still there.
>
> Given that gravity varies continuously, if the speed of light was
> dependant on local gravity, you'd get some strange curving as light
> moved through the solar system.  I think that our space probes would
> have noticed this as they moved around and through planetary gravity
> fields.  Of course, that's in *our* universe.  In a game universe,
> you could just say that this is true and that it had been noticed
> from very early on.

Its a matter of being at the wrong end of the spectrum for our measurements.

Gravity is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the source (from
Newtonian physics).
My theory is that V = k/G + C = k'*D^2 +C'
Where k and C are  constants (k' and C' are different though related constants)
V is the speed of light
G is gravity
D is distance from gravity source

This produces a classic hyperbolic arc when charted V vs. G.
As G approaches infinity, dV/dG approaches zero.  Thus at relatively high G's (like inside
the Sun's gravity well, out to Pluto say...) the change in the speed of light isn't large
enough to measure.  However in microgravity, as G approaches zero dV/dG approaches
infinity.

Right now, we've only been able to measure the speed of light over in the very flat area of
the hyperbola.  We haven't found zero G's yet, although we've simulated it by offsetting
gravity with centrifugal force.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #392
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 14 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 393



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Viability of Longhaul Trade
Re: Viability of Longhaul Trade
THUDDD -- will it ever stop being rescheduled?
Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested
Law Enforcement (Was Re: Adv. Chargen) 
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Law Enforcement (Was Re: Adv. Chargen) 
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #386
Re: NERVA 
Re: Jumpspace
Re:  Jumpspace                  
Re: Jumpspace
Re:  Jumpspace
Re:  Jumpspace and lightspeed
Re:  Jumpspace                  
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Adv. Chargen (Was Re: Uniforms II)
Re: Older Traveller Products
Re: MT Conversions
Re: Jumpspace and lightspeed
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 98 22:19 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Viability of Longhaul Trade

 	First of all a virtual beer for Jo.

Moin John R. Snead,

> Either the megacarriers are doing a whole hell of a lot of interstellar
> trade (as in each industrial planet in a subsector specializes in a
> different set of commodities and the megacarriers ship between them, or we
> need to raise shipping costs somewhat (maybe to 2,000 Cr/Td). 

	this would slaughter the holy cow. IMTU the credit is backed by the
	fact that 1000Cr are worth J1*1dt. Some countries are backing their
	currency by gold. The 3I is backing its currency by fleet.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:59:24 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Viability of Longhaul Trade

> > Either the megacarriers are doing a whole hell of a lot of interstellar
> > trade (as in each industrial planet in a subsector specializes in a
> > different set of commodities and the megacarriers ship between them, or we
> > need to raise shipping costs somewhat (maybe to 2,000 Cr/Td).
>
>         this would slaughter the holy cow. IMTU the credit is backed by the
>         fact that 1000Cr are worth J1*1dt. Some countries are backing their
>         currency by gold. The 3I is backing its currency by fleet.

But J2-6 are the same price.   Which is REALLY screwy concidering the added cost
of fuel to get that far. 10% vs. 35%

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:14:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD -- will it ever stop being rescheduled?

At several people's request, the entry deadline for THUDDD 9 has been
rescheduled yet again.  Final, absolute, certain deadline is Thursday 4/16
at midnight PDT.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:55:15 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested

I am currently having a bit of a dialog with a visitor to
Freelance Traveller who has complained that the black stripe down
the left side of the page is encroaching on the text.  Working
with him to date leads me to believe that there is either a
problem with his browsers, or a problem with the way the browsers
work under OS/2.

I would therefore appreciate it if you'd hit Freelance Traveller
with every version of every browser you can lay your hands on,
and let me know what the results are.

The URL of Freelance Traveller is
http://www.tightbeam.com/FreelanceTraveller.  Reports should be
sent to freetrav@hotmail.com with a subject line of BROWSER TEST.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:02:04 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Law Enforcement (Was Re: Adv. Chargen) 

Sethkimmel wrote:

> I have a copy of Merchant Prince. What do you need?

Thanks for the offer.  Dom just sent me some stuff that I need to parse through
first.  I'll let you know.

> BTW, I suggest a Law Enforcement career option.

I have it as branch of Agent.  It ties in fairly well with the Assignments I've
come up with.  Here's a teaser. For the Law Enforcement branch of Agent, the
possible assignments for an Agent are:

Raid/Interdiction: directly going after criminals and their operations, most
often, but not always, dealing with contraband.  This assignment would also
include fugitive recapture (bounty hunting for the non-government employee).

Police:  The Coppers.  Officers in uniform patrol the streets, respond to calls,
chase criminals, make arrests, deal with emergencies, etc.  [Inspirational
Material: TROOPS]

Investigation:  Detectives and criminologists, attempt to solve crimes after the
fact, although they also investigate ongoing criminal activity.  They are charged
with making the case against a criminal by gathering evidence, examining
suspects, etc.  (Possibly undercover work but I think that is better handled as a
separate branch).

Security:  Think prison guard. But also guards for starports, member-world and/or
Imperium government offices.

Training:  Obvious.

Special:  Special duty, cross training, Detective School, Agent Commission,
undercover, etc.

The Branches of Agent are:
Law Enforcement
Intelligence
Covert Ops
Counter-Espionage
Support
(and maybe Prosecution to parallel to role that District and United States'
Attorneys have in both the investigation of and punishment of crime.  In
Traveller, this might work as an option for governments with a Judge, Jury and
Executioner sort of career - early US Marshalls, Texas Rangers, Judge Dread).


Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:12:12 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:13:06 -0400, Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> > >However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity well.
> > >
> > >Keven
> >
> > Eh, what is actually your notion of a gravity well? How far does it extend
> > into space?
> 
> Seeing as how Pluto orbits the sun, we can assume that the sun's gravity extends to
> Pluto AT LEAST.

There is not limit.  The Sun (and the Earth, and Jupiter, etc.) tug on
every object in the universe (its just that it gets weaker in an
inverse square relationship).

In any case, we have Voyager out about, IIRC, 8 light hours.  We know
where it is based on orbital mechanics.  It doesn't show any effect.
We also would see an effect on occultations (you would see the image
jump forward or back in time, giving a temporary double image one
instant and not image the other) which we don't see (we just see
the bending of light).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:07:30 +0100
From: Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Law Enforcement (Was Re: Adv. Chargen) 

At 19:02 14/04/98 -0400, Bloo wrote:
>Traveller, this might work as an option for governments with a Judge, Jury
and
>Executioner sort of career - early US Marshalls, Texas Rangers, Judge Dread).
>
>
>Bloo


Well a long time ago in a White Dwarf there was a Bounty Hunter article.
It was usable on its own, but was intended that a character spent maybe a
term or two in either the armed forces or the law enforcements before
potentially getting a starship - Strontium Dog (2000AD) Bounty Hunter style.

I cannot remember the number of the White Dwarf at the moment or the name
of the author.

Cheers



Dom
- ---

mailto:dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com  or  mailto:dominicr@bigfoot.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:42:21 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Here's a question.  I know that canon states (very clearly) that jumping from
within 100 diameters is a *BAD* thing.  What I am curious about is whether or
not it is canon that it is the GRAVITY field that causes the problem?  

Since part of the problem with drop tanks is that they interfered with the jump
field (capacitors holding the energy from the extra fuel had to be developed
before they were practical, as I recall), is it not more likely that the
electromagnetic field surrounding planets is the more likely cause of misjump?

Comments?

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:45:49 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #386

"Donald E McKinney" <dmckinne@itds.com> wrote:


>>>Anyway, look at the Chanestin world UPPs in the 1100s - boring TL, yawn
>>>worlds.  In M:0, these guys almost kill the Imperium before it starts.
>>>Guess what got bombed back to the stone age.
>>
>>Yep, IIRC the capital of the Chanestin is Keshi which is somewhat dead in
>>M0. Remember - the Imperium my forbid member states the use of nukes but
>>reserves the right to use them itself.
>You're agreeing here?

Yes. I think that the late Sylean Federation/Early Imperium would be
especially brutal to opponents. Sort of 'don't mess with us'.


>All I'm saying is:
>1)    there should be a "nobler" side to M:0
>2)    Cleon as presented is very one-dimensional
>3)    how much actual game play did the ideas in M:0 get before print?

Agreed on points 1 and 2. Can't answer point 3.

>>Yes, I agree. In my game the players will not be seeing the nasty side of
>>the Imperium at first, or maybe ever. It's not mentioned in polite
>>society...
>
>So you're not playing 'in book' M:0 either...

I disagree. I think that the bulk of the populace will be seeing a media
heavily biased towards the Imperium. My reading of the book was although
the Imperium is not very nice, it is not necessarily something that most
citizens will see unless they scratch the surface. Until the Pacification
Campaigns I would expect the Imperium to seem little different to the
Sylean Federation, aside from the fact it is now a state with a belief in itself.

When I want a nice, shiny progressive Imperium I travel forward to 1105...

>No offense, but if it was written like the other books, it would probably be
>set in the same vein....

Probably.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:49:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: NERVA 

 "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

>Can we say Jovian censored moons????
>
>I expect Mars to pretty much be a bustout, but the Jovian moons should be
>worth living on...

I believe the programme has been delayed while an AI computer is built that
can be given contradictory instructions successfully.

Dom ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:45:56 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 03:13 pm 4/14/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>Anders Backman wrote:
>
>> >However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's
gravity well.
>> >
>> >Keven
>>
>> Eh, what is actually your notion of a gravity well? How far does
it extend
>> into space?
>
>Seeing as how Pluto orbits the sun, we can assume that the sun's
gravity extends to
>Pluto AT LEAST.

	As a sphincto-rific anal-retentive space ops and gearhead wienie of
the first order, let me throw in:

	1. Technically, the sun's gravity extends to infinity.
	2. Nevertheless, all of the measurements were made over a course
with continuously variable local gravitational values (i.e.
curvature), and therefore fairly conclusively demonstrate, that the
speed of light does not depend on gravity ...

	Just because it's still within "the sun's gravity well" does NOT
mean that the gravity is constant anywhere in there ... remember
1/r^2.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:00:21 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Jumpspace                  

>> Also, if there was a significant variation in the speed of light between
>> us and Voyager or Pioneer (which are out past Pluto), we
>> would notice.

>Here's part of the bias.  Presumably you're using light to measure the location
>of
>the planets and thus its distance.  If lightspeed isn't constant, then you'll
>biased distance.  If you then use this distance and measure the reflection time
>the
>bias will show up in its velocity.
>I'm also not too sure how accurate those
>distances are measured.  Until we actually throw a tape measure out to Pluto
>we can't be sure that our measuring methods aren't
>influencing the results.

In Voyager's case, it's moving away from the Earth at a constant speed.
(Well, not quite constant, but it's (small) deceleration can be easily
calculated.) So the distance between Earth and Voyager should be increasing
at a constant rate. We measure this distance through travel time for light
(radio) to get out to Voyager and back to us. If the speed of light out
where Voyager is was changing, pulses would be coming back sooner than we 
think; we'd think that the distance to Voyager isn't increasing as fast as
we think it is - ie that Voyager is slowing down faster than predicted.
No such effect is observed.

In the case of planetary distances, we don't just have single measurements 
of the distance to a planet, but a complex set of multiple measurements as
the planets (and us) go around their orbits. For example, given distance 
between Earth and the sun you can calculate the mass of the sun. Given the
mass of the sun and the amount of time that Neptune takes to go around the
sun you can calculate the radius of neptune's orbit, and hence the distance
between neptune and Earth, which you then compare to the speed-of-light
distance to Neptune from Voyager measurements or radar. In practice, you use
the Voyager position to refine your Neptune orbital info. You also see effects
of planets gravity tugging on each other in a way that agrees with their
calculated distances to astonishing precision. (Once upon a time people thought
there was an anomaly in the positions of Neptune requiring a "Planet X", but
post-Voyager empherides pretty much remove the need for it.)

In addition, you can measure the speed of light between here and Jupiter 
(or Saturn or Neptune) by watching the relative timing of eclipses of 
the moons of those planets as the Earth moves closer and farther from them.
(Ten points to anyone who can tell me why this doesn't work for Uranus.)

Overall, evidence for the constancy of the speed of light in the solar system
is pretty good.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:10:50 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 05:32 PM 4/14/98 -0400, Joe Petit wrote:
>Gravity is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the
source (from
>Newtonian physics).
>My theory is that V = k/G + C = k'*D^2 +C'
>Where k and C are  constants (k' and C' are different though related
constants)
>V is the speed of light
>G is gravity
>D is distance from gravity source

From what I remember, anything which makes a substantial difference at the
Oort cloud is going to be detectable far closer, since you have postulated
an inverse square law.  Square laws are a good idea, since they work well
as solutions to most of the kinds of equations that pop up in physics.  For
example, that they are the integral of an inverse distance potential and
stable for elliptical orbits is very convenient.

One nit you might want to address - relativistic distance contraction might
be exciting, given that you have something related directly to distance,
and your non constant light speed seems like it would be a way to determine
an absolute rest frame, which would have all sorts of other consequences.

If you can phrase it carefully, you might want to take it
sci.physics.relativity, and ask the "what if" questions.  As long as you
make clear that this is for a work of fiction, and are trying to see how
much of conventional physics can be salvaged with this one change, you
might get some good information.

>This produces a classic hyperbolic arc when charted V vs. G.
>As G approaches infinity, dV/dG approaches zero.  Thus at relatively high
G's (like inside
>the Sun's gravity well, out to Pluto say...) the change in the speed of
light isn't large
>enough to measure.  However in microgravity, as G approaches zero dV/dG
approaches
>infinity.

We can measure differences on an extremely fine scale within our gravity
well, and get consistent results for both time dilation and gravitational
lensing out for quite a ways.  The changes you are proposing seem like they
should show up operationally rather sooner.

This does not meant that it cannot be done, only that your theory does not
match what we can see, and so you need to find a way to either cover for
why we do not see it, or when your universe would have.  for example, if in
your universe, there was no Hubble constant on close examination, and the
COBE radiation not as uniform as it is, you could get a very different
course for science in this century.

Scott 
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:11:24 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Jumpspace

>> Measurements of the fine structure of various spectral lines implicitly
>> measure the speed of light (to within a part in 10^3 or 10^4).
>> have been performed for interstellar clouds that aren't in anyones
>> gravity well. No real evidence for variability of the speed of light.  

>Hovever, the *instruments* registering these readings are still in the gravity 
>well, either on Earth or still climbing out thru the Oort Clouds.

The wavelength of light emitted by atoms depends on the speed of light - 
for example, the spacing between hyperfine states depends on the 
"fine structure constant", alpha, which is e^2/h*c  (e being charge on
electron, h being Plank constant with a 2pi folded in, c being speed
of light.) The spacing between hyperfine lines in distant interstellar
or intergalactic clouds is the same as the spacing in the lab to a level
that implies alpha is constant to a part in 10^-4. (There's a recent paper
that implies 10^-5 variations, but I don't believe it for reasons too
complicated to go into here.) Note that this has nothing to do with the speed
the light has on the way too or from us - it's basically a measure of the
speed of light inside the atom at the time the photon was emitted. 
(There are enough other spectral lines that don't depend on alpha but do 
depend on e and h that we can be sure that no part of alpha is varying.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:18:23 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Jumpspace and lightspeed

>My theory is that V = k/G + C = k'*D^2 +C'
>Where k and C are  constants (k' and C' are different though related constants)
>V is the speed of light
>G is gravity
>D is distance from gravity source

If we want V=1 parsec/week = 169 * (normal speed of light) at a distance of
half a parsec, we need k'=168/(100000)^2 for D in AU, or k=1*10^-9. At 
Voyager distance this would give you ~10^-5 change in speed of light - Voyager
messages would arrive a half-second earlier than predicted by inertial 
navigation, which should be detectable.
(Cute theory, though.) 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:37:36 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re:  Jumpspace                  

At 05:00 PM 14/04/98 -0700, Bruce wrote:

>In addition, you can measure the speed of light between here and Jupiter 
>(or Saturn or Neptune) by watching the relative timing of eclipses of 
>the moons of those planets as the Earth moves closer and farther from them.
>(Ten points to anyone who can tell me why this doesn't work for Uranus.)

I know, I know...

It's 'cause Uranus has a huge axial tilt. IIRC 93 degrees, or there abouts.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:11:38 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Douglas Glatz wrote:

> Here's a question.  I know that canon states (very clearly) that jumping from
> within 100 diameters is a *BAD* thing.

Actually, I've never seen rules that make it a REALLY bad thing, just inconvenient.

> What I am curious about is whether or
> not it is canon that it is the GRAVITY field that causes the problem?
>
> Since part of the problem with drop tanks is that they interfered with the jump
> field (capacitors holding the energy from the extra fuel had to be developed
> before they were practical, as I recall), is it not more likely that the
> electromagnetic field surrounding planets is the more likely cause of misjump?

Refering back to my original post, the jump drive involves aligning and targeting a
subatomic partical.  Gravity AND EM fields can easilly screw up that alignment.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:44:55 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Adv. Chargen (Was Re: Uniforms II)

Steve Daniels wrote:

> across as many careers as possible.  To do this I need whatever Chargen stuff there
> is in Merchant Prince.  Not the details but whatever parallel there is to Branches
> and Assignments as depicted in Merc. and High Guard.
> 
Hello,

I alsp have a copy of Merchant Prince which you nay access for
information. If the others who have reponded become unavailable for any
reason, and you need some data, you can call on me.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:44:33 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Older Traveller Products

> Very nice shop, a close contender with Rochester, NY's Crazy Egor's
> Game Emporium for the best source in the American Northeast for
> out of print and hard to find gaming stuff. I'll be in the Big Apple
> next week for a training seminar, Compleat Strategist is on
> my short list of places to stop...Martian Metals, Dark Horse
> and Metal Magic sci-fi miniatures, here I come!!  :)
> 
> Speaking of Crazy Egor's in Rochester - last time I was there
> (about 2 years ago), he had some of the original 15mm
> Traveller minis in stock. Just for anyone who is looking...
> 

How far are these shops from Andover, MA?  This is where my new job will
be.  (I'm currently in Camas, WA on the west coast)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:12:56 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: MT Conversions

At 02:52 PM 4/14/98 -0500, "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com> wrote:
>OK, fellow gearheads, anybody have any formulas for translating 
>GURPS/TNE/T4 weaponry to MT? I looked over the 3G3 description
>on the BTRC website and it didn't mention converting from other
>gaming systems *to* MT.
>
>Help!

I can help you out I have a G^3 spreadsheet that has converisons to MT and
an earlier version of G^3 that has MT converions in it


 
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:43:50 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace and lightspeed

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> >My theory is that V = k/G + C = k'*D^2 +C'
> >Where k and C are  constants (k' and C' are different though related constants)
> >V is the speed of light
> >G is gravity
> >D is distance from gravity source
>
> If we want V=1 parsec/week = 169 * (normal speed of light) at a distance of
> half a parsec, we need k'=168/(100000)^2 for D in AU, or k=1*10^-9.

No no no... at half a parsec I want V = 1 parsec/minuteActually, that's ship speed.
I think my preliminary study put ship speed at 1/5 light speed, which puts
lightspeed at 5 pc/min at a distance of 1/2 pc from any gravity well/star.
Remember that Jump 2 takes no more time than Jump 1 (or in my theory takes
insignificantly longer, i.e. 1 minute vs. 1 week).  This insignificant time at
"ludicrous" speed changes alot of things as it approaches zero. Like, you don't
break one light year from the star until 84 hours - insignificant time.


> At
> Voyager distance this would give you ~10^-5 change in speed of light - Voyager
> messages would arrive a half-second earlier than predicted by inertial
> navigation, which should be detectable.
> (Cute theory, though.)

I don't know what Voyager distance is (although I thought we lost communication with
it, but what do I know?).  But I do recall it took on the order of minutes (to an
hour) to reach Voyager and then minutes to get back.  Although a half a second could
be measured, I don't think that it would be significant.I suppose the easiest thing
to do is amend my theory to say that lightspeed WITHIN a jump bubble is inversely
proportional to gravity.  Which everyone will say is fine in  my traveller universe,
but I don't run a game so that doesn't mean spit. In fact, I may as well not have a
relationship to lightspeed at all and just say that within a jump bubble you can
move FTL.  And I could just completely water down my theory and call it GM caveat...

One of the canonical features that is broken with my theory is FTL communications.
If lightspeed does increase, then you just need to point your communicator at the
reciever and it will get there in a week (or less).  Of course, said communicator
would be LUDICROUSLY huge and power consumptive... However if light speed increases
inside the jump bubble, this FTL comm trick doesn't work because it doesn't have the
jump bubble.  Although you could pulse a wave through j-space with a TL 21 Jump
Projector...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:58:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:
> Douglas Glatz wrote:
> 
> > Here's a question.  I know that canon states (very clearly) that jumping from
> > within 100 diameters is a *BAD* thing.
> 
> Actually, I've never seen rules that make it a REALLY bad thing, just inconvenient.

Look at what happens when you try to jump within 5 P.D.  I consider that
*BAD*.

> 
> > What I am curious about is whether or
> > not it is canon that it is the GRAVITY field that causes the problem?
> >
> 
> Refering back to my original post, the jump drive involves aligning and targeting a
> subatomic partical.  Gravity AND EM fields can easilly screw up that alignment.
> 

However, my question still stands.

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
*Unsolicited advertisements will be reported to the originating ISP*
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:20:32 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Douglas wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:
> > Douglas Glatz wrote:
> >
> > > Here's a question.  I know that canon states (very clearly) that jumping from
> > > within 100 diameters is a *BAD* thing.
> >
> > Actually, I've never seen rules that make it a REALLY bad thing, just inconvenient.
>
> Look at what happens when you try to jump within 5 P.D.  I consider that
> *BAD*.
>

Quite probably... but I've never seen what happens in print... I've seen the 10 diameter
and 100 diameter foul ups, but nothing less than 10 diameters.

> >
> > > What I am curious about is whether or
> > > not it is canon that it is the GRAVITY field that causes the problem?
> > >
> >
> > Refering back to my original post, the jump drive involves aligning and targeting a
> > subatomic partical.  Gravity AND EM fields can easilly screw up that alignment.
> >
>
> However, my question still stands.

I don't know enough about Canon to say one way or the other.  All I have is rule books,
to which I'm trying to model jump theory to the rules. However, since some planetary
bodies don't have EM fields, I'd have to say no... err... yes... the first one... what
was the question again?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #393
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 15 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 394



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re[2]: Foreven Sector Star Positions
Re: Jumpspace 
Re: Older Traveller Products
Re: MT Conversions
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Got my pages up, temporarily
Re: Repai
Re: NERVA
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: NERVA
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Older Traveller Products
Re: Space  Travel, RL / NERVA
Re: Repai
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:14:48 EDT
From: GypsyComet <GypsyComet@aol.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Foreven Sector Star Positions

DOH!

In a message dated 4/14/1998 8:52:11 AM, I wrote:

>>  This is now up on my page. The dotmap is derived from the
>>Imperiallines #1 article from the end of the MegaTraveller era.
>>GDW set the sector aside as a Referee's Preserve for the most part,
>>so you wan't find anything official aside from this one (rather rare
>>and obscure) article.
>>
>>GypsyComet
>>
>><http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.com> in the Zhodani section...

  This should be "index.html" obviously. Thank you to those who pointed this
out.

 Speaking of Iakr Sector, if anyone has developed bits of it based on the
Imperiallines article (or my dotmap...) and wants to make a contribution to a
unified sector writup, feel free to contact me. I don't have gobs of web
space, but a sector doesn't take THAT much space...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:47:38 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace 

> On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:
> > Douglas Glatz wrote:
> > 
> > > Here's a question.  I know that canon states (very clearly) that jumping from
> > > within 100 diameters is a *BAD* thing.
> > 
> > Actually, I've never seen rules that make it a REALLY bad thing, just inconvenient.

More like, a dicey thing.

> 
> Look at what happens when you try to jump within 5 P.D.  I consider that
> *BAD*.

Highly recommended for characters interested in studying reincarnation 
theories, tho IMOTU, the party tried a desperation jump from less than a 
thousand klicks from the surface of a planet.  For reasons that escape me at 
the moment, I was feeling peculiarly generous at the moment, all that happened 
to the ship was this big *CLUNK*, and all the power went out.  They managed to 
land back on the planet *BARELY*.  (Ever had to make a dead-stick landing on a 
Size 3 world with a trace atmosphere in a semistreamlined ship?  Not 
recommended for people with chronic heart trouble...)  When the ship stopped 
moving, they had a chance to check it over, and found *NOTHING* where the 
powerplant and the jump capacitors were previously located.  All power busses 
were sheared off within a 4 meter globe centered on the Zochai crystals, the 
ends and misc structural edges were mirror-smooth.  (Idea stolen from an old 
Larry Niven short story.)

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:57:43 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Older Traveller Products

J-Man wrote:

[snip New York City and Rochester stores]

> How far are these shops from Andover, MA?  This is where my new job will
> be.  (I'm currently in Camas, WA on the west coast)

You're in for about a 5-8 hour drive to NY City, and probably 6-7 to
Rochester, depending heavily on traffic.  For weekends, add an hour or
more.  Not something most Yankees up here in Boston want to do ever day, but
coming from Texas, that ain't nothing.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:03:49 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: MT Conversions

>OK, fellow gearheads, anybody have any formulas for translating
>GURPS/TNE/T4 weaponry to MT? I looked over the 3G3 description
>on the BTRC website and it didn't mention converting from other
>gaming systems *to* MT.
>
>Help!

To get a (better) grip on GURPS weapn stats avoid Gregs polynomial fit
method in 3G3 and instead buy GURPS Vehicles 2ed and look at their weapon
designm system (the book is by far the best design system in RPGs, well
worth the buy even if you'll never play GURPS).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:22:19 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>Refering back to my original post, the jump drive involves aligning and
>targeting a
>subatomic partical.  Gravity AND EM fields can easilly screw up that alignment.

I'm not shure your original post made canon (not yet ;-)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:29:57 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>Here's a question.  I know that canon states (very clearly) that jumping from
>within 100 diameters is a *BAD* thing.  What I am curious about is whether or
>not it is canon that it is the GRAVITY field that causes the problem?

I think that canon sources state that it's from gravity that the problems
with jumping close to planets etc occur. Wether it's from the strength of
gravity or the rate of change of gravity (tidal force) has not been
resolved in canon as far as I know.

I suggested earlier here that the problem was actually gravitational slope
(tidal force) which varies inversely proportional to range cubed. This has
the neat effect that given constant density the effect would be
proportional to diameter. You could (for planets) us the standard rules as
they're stated and multiply the 100diam measure with the cuberoot of
planetary density (earth density = 1.0) for detail (standard density
planets could just ignore this.
Another thing is that it eliminates more or less the 100diam limit of the
central star which I think is troublesome for the referee (do you always
check wether a planet is inside the stars 100 diam radius?)
Finally it make good background material:

"The ship was so deep within the gravity well of the planet that when the
engineer engaged the jumpdrive it generated such a tearing force it tore
the ship apart. I've seen it with my own eyes and it's not a pretty sight.
Chhers buddy."

Marc didn't like it though (for no apparent reason) so I guess it's out (sigh).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:06:14 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Got my pages up, temporarily

[Forwarded message from a TML'er who can't post]


> I have my web pages up, including all my MT and MMT fixes.
> 
> http://www.hist.uaa.alaska.edu/wfh/index.html
> 
> please test, and let me know how they work... and what you think.
> 
> 
> William F. Hostman
> Mailto:Aramis@Asylumbbs.com     Mailto:ASWFH@uaa.alaska.edu
> HTTP://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh
> 
> Traveller, GURPS, Hero, WFRP, SFB/Prime Directive, Star Wars, Ars Magica,
> Arabian Sea Tales, and Masterbook GM
> Star Trek, B5, FSRP, and Traveller Fan
> 
> IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- 
> kk+ as+ hi+ dr+  so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
> 
> IMTU addons: virush++ Newt++ dolphin+ Ithklur-- Merc+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:46:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Repai

In mail you write:

> You wrote;
> <snip; WinCE device crushed...>
>
>>ObTrav: Well, my players make a lot of use of protable electronics. Now
>>I'm going to add a 'butterfingers' roll against dexterity, especially at
>>functions with lots of small children, to avoid dropping something
>>important. Makes paying for milspec equipment a bit more attractive, even
>>if it does weigh more!
>
> I wouldn't be *too* harsh with the roll except for absolute cutting edge
> stuff... if the system has been available for more than half a TL or so
> (using Tech Levels as a dating system... is that kosher?), it's going to
> be pretty damn rugged (by way of example, my Newton 120 has survived a
> fall of about five feet, into a puddle in a parking lot, in the rain, with
> nothing more serious happening than my cursing a lot and some scratches on
> the case).

Strangely, the "father of all notebook computers" the Tandy Model 100,
was *notorious* for being able to take being dropped a lot. I've
dropped mine 6 feet onto concrete a few times. As long as you don't
crack the screen (hard because it's pretty well protected) it just
dings up the plastic a bit.

Of course it helps that the only moving parts are the keys and a couple
of switches. :-)

> By the time of the 3I, however, it can take generations for signifcant
> technological advances to take place; the wrist-top your father bought
> when he was in Uni is still a perfectly valid computer (though it's likely
> out of style). So it's likely that such systems will be built to last a
> lot longer than they are today; sure, some will be going for the "computer
> of the year" trend-setters club (both producers and consumer), but a there
> will be companies doing the Rolex/Timex "Built to Last" theory; good,
> solid systems that will last forever.

At some point in the not *too* distant future, we are going to run up
against the physical limits of silicon technology. At that point, you
won't see "better" computers coming out yearly. And the developers will
have to go back to improving performance by writing better code instead
of counting on their customers buying a new computer. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:11:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: NERVA

In mail you write:

>
>>Better recheck your sources. The "full up" unit that was the last one
>>tested was essentially identical to what would have been flown except
>>for the way things were arranged, had an Isp of well over 700. That's
>>almost *double* the best chemical rockets.

> Double the ISP of a good chemical rocket (400), but with terrible
> thrust-to-weight; NERVA doesn't have a whole lot of advantage as a
> first stage, and we lack a pressing application for a high-ISP
> upper stage.

It took a bit of digging as they only mention the weight of the engine
*once* in the article, but I found it. Engine weight= 15 tons, thrust=
200,000 pounds. That gives a better than 6:1 thrust to weight ratio. Of
course, you do have the small problem of fuel... :-)

> (ObTraveller: Try designing ships using the basic NTR in FFS2 - you'll
> find it's very much a niche engine. Even the TL-9 GasCore NTR is
> hard to work with (see my  lifter design I posted a while ago.)

When I eventually get FF&S2, I've got to try designing that fission
powered trader. :-)

They'll spend a lot of time coasting from orbit to 100 diameters and
back, but I think they'll be able to scrape by. 

>>Remember, double the Isp means that you only need to haul half as much
>>fuel around. And for "multi-stage" situations, the advantage goes up
>>exponentially.
>
> It's much better than "half as much fuel" since delta-V goes as
> ISP*log(mass fraction), but still it's an overstatement to (as the
> original poster did) assume that everything would be perfect if only
> we had carried on with it's development. (Though it's a common flaw
> in discussions of space policy; other favourite "if only we had..."
> subjects include DynaSoar and (especially) Orion, which is usually
> assumed to solve all of humanities ills for no money at all, as well
> as making julienne fries.

Well, I'm *certain* that DynaSoar would have run into problems, as
would the MOL. But I still think that if the Air Force had been allowed
to continue their "space program", we'd have gotten some use out of it.

> For an interesting perspective on alternate history, take a look at
> Stephen Baxter's "Voyage": NASA persists with a manned mission to Mars
> after Apollo, but at the cost of not doing Pioneer or Voyager or HST
> or pretty much anything else.

There was also a story in Analog some years back where we never got
into the "space race" with the Soviets. So things like the X-15, and
other high altitude/high speed military *and* civilian experimental
craft just kept going faster and higher. And there were experimental
rockets as well. By the mid-80s, they were only just getting ready to
launch a moon flight, but there was *extensive* presence in earth
orbit. The moon flight(s) were several independent projects. Most folks
figured the National Geographic society would be first, but the British
Interplanetary Society was running a close second. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:30:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

> The other day while driving down the interstate, I was  pondering the
> nature of jumpspace....
> While this may not be canon, I don't believe it violates canon
>
> Assumption 1: Light speed is not constant.  Instead it is inversely
> proportional to gravity.

Doesn't match experiments that have *already* been done. :-)

> Assumption 2: Jumpspace has no inertia. If there was inertia, no amount
> of compensators could keep crew from splattering on the bulkhead as they
> accelerate/decelerate 3+ lightyears in one week.

It's not acceleration that hurts you. It's *resistance* to
acceleration. For example, in a uniform gravity field, you could be
accelerated at a million gees and never even notice. That's because
gravity accelerates all the particles equally. So as long as jump drive
does something similar, you are ok. Besides, there's no proof that the
distance covered in jumpspace is anywhere *near* the distance in normal
space. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:35:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

> Anders Backman wrote:
>
>> >Assumption 1: Light speed is not constant.  Instead it is inversely
>> >proportional to gravity.
>>
>> Think a bit about the ramifications of this with stuff we know now. It's
>> akin to assumption 1: Earth is flat and we're gods creation from some 5000
>> years ago.

> I think there was a computer game based on that premise...
>
> Seriously though, the light speed assumption isn't so far fetched.
> We do know that gravity affects light's velocity (it can be bent).  I
> don't believe we've had concrete analysis of lightspeed outside our
> gravity well.  So, within our constant gravity, c is constant.

Except that we've got measurements covering a wide range of gravity.
And we can measure things like the difference in the rate time passes
at the top and bottom of a building (gravity affects the rate at which
time passes). 

The speed of light ties into a lot of things like the relationship
between wavelength and frequency. And that'd make signals from (for
example) the Voyager and Pioneer probes really odd. They are *way* out
there. Practically in interstellar space.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:25:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: NERVA

In mail you write:

>> >and we lack a pressing application for a high-ISP
>> >upper stage.
>> 
>> ...can we say Mars! OK, I agree that most politicos doesn't consider manned
>> Mars missions pressing...
>
> Can we say Jovian censored moons????
>
> I expect Mars to pretty much be a bustout, but the Jovian moons should be 
> worth living on...

Only if your DNA has a high lead content. Jupiter's radiation belts are
*nasty* and the 4 big moons are all inside them!

It's also a *long* ways to Jupiter. Mars orbit is about 1.6 AU.
Jupiter's is around 10 AU.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:39:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

>> >I think there was a computer game based on that premise...
>> >
>> >Seriously though, the light speed assumption isn't so far fetched.  We do 
> know
>> >that gravity affects light's velocity (it can be bent).  I don't believe 
> we've
>> >had concrete analysis of lightspeed outside our gravity well.  So, within 
> our
>> >constant gravity, c is constant.
>> 
>> We've measured the speed of light on Earth, from Earth to moon and back
>> again, to the moons of jupiter and back again etc and we've gotten the smae
>> answer everywhere.
>
> However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity 
> well.

So? The sun's gravity is pretty darn weak here, a lot weaker at
Juptiter's orbit, and practically non-existent out where the Voyager
probes are.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:55:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

> Here's a question.  I know that canon states (very clearly) that
> jumping from within 100 diameters is a *BAD* thing.  What I am
> curious about is whether or not it is canon that it is the GRAVITY
> field that causes the problem?

I think there are references to it being related to the mass.

> Since part of the problem with drop tanks is that they interfered
> with the jump field (capacitors holding the energy from the extra
> fuel had to be developed before they were practical, as I recall), is
> it not more likely that the electromagnetic field surrounding planets
> is the more likely cause of misjump?

Trouble is, there are planets with just about *zilch* EM field, and
ones with one that make Earth's look like nothing. 

What some of us came up with was that it may depend on the rate of
change of the gravity field (ie the "steepness" of the "gravity well").
This is essentially the same as tidal force, and is related to the
*cube* of the distance. It even makes a sort of sense that it'd work
that way. Trying to "stress" space that's already pretty stressed would
tend to cause trouble, right?

We came up with some figures you could use to figure the danger radius
from various bodies based on mass. The less dense the body, the closer
you could be. But the "danger range" from a ship or jump tank was
pretty small.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:41:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

> Anders Backman wrote:
>
>>> However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity 
>>> well.
>>
>> Eh, what is actually your notion of a gravity well? How far does it extend
>> into space?
>
> Seeing as how Pluto orbits the sun, we can assume that the sun's gravity 
> extends to Pluto AT LEAST.

The gravitational influence of *any* object extends to *infinity*. But
at the same time, it is getting progressively weaker. For example, at
the surface of the sun, it's gravity is about 26 times as strong as the
earths surface gravity. 

A=GM/R^2
	sun	Earth
GM=	13e19	4e14
R=	7e8    	6.4e6
A=	2.7e2	9.8
	27g	1g

Now at 1 AU, the sun's gravity is only 6e-3 (6/10,000th of a g).
At 35 AU (Neptune's orbit) it's only 5/10,000,000th of a g.

I'd say that's pretty negligible. 

What counts isn't the *presence* of a "gravity well" but *how steep* it
is (ie how strong the field is at that distance).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:08:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

> Quite probably... but I've never seen what happens in print... I've seen the 
> 10 diameter and 100 diameter foul ups, but nothing less than 10 diameters.

Better re-read the stuff you saw. All the ones I've seen have "Jumping
while within 10 diameters" and "Jumping while within 100 diameters".
Note that the first one covers everything from the center of the planet
out to 10 diameters, and the second covers from there to 100 diameters.

Here's what it has in The Traveller Book (closest to the computer :-).

Misjump:

Throw 13+ each time a ship jumps, with the following DMs:
Within 100 diameters of a world		 +5
Within  10 diameters of a world		+10
Using unrefined fuel			 +1
If naval ship				 -1
If scout ship				 -2

If result 16+, ship is destroyed
If result 13+, ship has misjumped

Note that according to the text accompanying the table, for a jump from
within 10 diameters, *both* distance modifiers apply. That is, it's
+15, not +10. Which, since it's a 2 die roll, means that you are
automatically destroyed if you engage the drive while within 10
diameters of the planet. :-)

2+15=17 oops.

A scout ship has 1 chance in 36 of making it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:24:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Older Traveller Products

In mail you write:

>> Very nice shop, a close contender with Rochester, NY's Crazy Egor's
>> Game Emporium for the best source in the American Northeast for
>> out of print and hard to find gaming stuff. I'll be in the Big Apple
>> next week for a training seminar, Compleat Strategist is on
>> my short list of places to stop...Martian Metals, Dark Horse
>> and Metal Magic sci-fi miniatures, here I come!!  :)
>> 
>> Speaking of Crazy Egor's in Rochester - last time I was there
>> (about 2 years ago), he had some of the original 15mm
>> Traveller minis in stock. Just for anyone who is looking...
>> 
>
> How far are these shops from Andover, MA?  This is where my new job will
> be.  (I'm currently in Camas, WA on the west coast)

I can't *find* Andover on my US map. But a trip from *anywhere* in
Massachutsetts to New York City would be about like a trip from Camas
to Seattle. A trip to Rochester would be like a trip to Spokane. You
see, Rochester is at the opposite end of the state, up by Lake Ontario.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:33:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Space  Travel, RL / NERVA

In mail you write:


>>The shuttle give you 450-500 isp and NERVA was 1100-1300 right?
> The NERVA prototypes that actually worked were closer to 800; since the 
> thrust-to-weight is so terrible, you end up with a lot of weight of 
> engine (assuming you want to be able to use NERVA as a first stage) and
> not much real advantage over chemical rockets.

Also, the Shuttle main engines are only about 425.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:28:07 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Repai

>At some point in the not *too* distant future, we are going to run up
>against the physical limits of silicon technology. At that point, you
>won't see "better" computers coming out yearly. And the developers will
>have to go back to improving performance by writing better code instead
>of counting on their customers buying a new computer.

We've heard that a couple of times now. The physical limit of silicon has
always been just around the corner, the same with modem speeds.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:50:50 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > The other day while driving down the interstate, I was  pondering the
> > nature of jumpspace....
> > While this may not be canon, I don't believe it violates canon
> >
> > Assumption 1: Light speed is not constant.  Instead it is inversely
> > proportional to gravity.
>
> Doesn't match experiments that have *already* been done. :-)

Yea yea yea... I've got a whole folder filled with this arguement.  That's why
its called an assumption.

>
>
> > Assumption 2: Jumpspace has no inertia. If there was inertia, no amount
> > of compensators could keep crew from splattering on the bulkhead as they
> > accelerate/decelerate 3+ lightyears in one week.
>
> It's not acceleration that hurts you. It's *resistance* to
> acceleration. For example, in a uniform gravity field, you could be
> accelerated at a million gees and never even notice. That's because
> gravity accelerates all the particles equally. So as long as jump drive
> does something similar, you are ok. Besides, there's no proof that the
> distance covered in jumpspace is anywhere *near* the distance in normal
> space. :-)

The problem with very high gravity fields is that gravity is inversely
proportional to distance squared.  Which means that at high gravity
conditions, the front of your ship is accelerating faster than the back of
your ship. Which results in the front of your ship getting ripped off.  Same
thing applies to your body.  Very messy.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:53:09 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

> > However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity
> > well.
>
> So? The sun's gravity is pretty darn weak here, a lot weaker at
> Juptiter's orbit, and practically non-existent out where the Voyager
> probes are.

"pretty darn weak" != zero

Its at the "ludicrously darn weak" level that the effects become noticable.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:56:57 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>
>
> > Quite probably... but I've never seen what happens in print... I've seen the
> > 10 diameter and 100 diameter foul ups, but nothing less than 10 diameters.
>

> Here's what it has in The Traveller Book (closest to the computer :-).
>

That explains it.  I've only got TNE and MT.  TNE never blew you up.  You just had
delays etc.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #394
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 15 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 395



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jumpspace
Re: MT Conversions
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Older Traveller Products
GURPS Vehicles (Was Re: MT Conversions)
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: GURPS Vehicles (Was Re: MT Conversions)
GURPS Ship Design
Crazy Egor  (Status of a Friend)
re: Jumpspace
Re: GURPS Ship Design
Re: Jumpspace
Re: NERVA
Re: Repai
travlist: re- looking to trade
[none]
Re: THUDDD -- will it ever stop being rescheduled?
Re: Jumpspace
Re: GURPS Vehicles (Was Re: MT Conversions)
Re: Repair
Re: Crazy Egor  (Status of a Friend)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:11:46 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > Anders Backman wrote:
> >
> >>> However, we've done these measurements still inside of the sun's gravity
> >>> well.
> >>
> >> Eh, what is actually your notion of a gravity well? How far does it extend
> >> into space?
> >
> > Seeing as how Pluto orbits the sun, we can assume that the sun's gravity
> > extends to Pluto AT LEAST.
>
> The gravitational influence of *any* object extends to *infinity*. But
> at the same time, it is getting progressively weaker. For example, at
> the surface of the sun, it's gravity is about 26 times as strong as the
> earths surface gravity.
>
> A=GM/R^2
>         sun     Earth
> GM=     13e19   4e14
> R=      7e8     6.4e6
> A=      2.7e2   9.8
>         27g     1g
>
> Now at 1 AU, the sun's gravity is only 6e-3 (6/10,000th of a g).
> At 35 AU (Neptune's orbit) it's only 5/10,000,000th of a g.
>
> I'd say that's pretty negligible.
>

I'd say Neptune doesn't think so.  i.e. its strong enough to keep a planet in
orbit.

> What counts isn't the *presence* of a "gravity well" but *how steep* it
> is (ie how strong the field is at that distance).

Well, yes.  I just made the reference to being inversely proportional to
gravity.  Note also that all those pesky planets  don't make this a simple
calculation.  In the hyperbolic arc I'm talking about, any gravity greater than
what's found out at Pluto (arbitrarilly) is all the way down on the flat spot of
the curve, thus appears constant.  My calculations assume parsecs of distance,
not AU's.  Compared to a black hole, Earth has virtually no gravity.  Does that
mean none?  no of course not.  But when you compare any finite number to zero,
its HUGE.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:25:46 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: MT Conversions

>At 02:52 PM 4/14/98 -0500, "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com> wrote:
>>OK, fellow gearheads, anybody have any formulas for translating
>>GURPS/TNE/T4 weaponry to MT? I looked over the 3G3 description
>>on the BTRC website and it didn't mention converting from other
>>gaming systems *to* MT.
>>
>>Help!
>
>I can help you out I have a G^3 spreadsheet that has converisons to MT and
>an earlier version of G^3 that has MT converions in it

Well Sam, where is it!  Put it up on a website or something!

At least send me a copy.

Interesting, I'm seeing (reading?) and feeling a slow but inexorable motion
towards teh MT system for many things.  I switched (back) to MT starship
combat recently and found it quite usable, though missing a couple of
things.

Maybe next week I'll look at the MT task/personal combat system.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:38:24 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

With all this debate on the constancy of the speed of light...
regardless of how the actual universe works, in the Traveller
universe, light speed must be constant. 

If you could go one parsec in one week at 1/5 "c" (where "c" is
the local, changing speed of light) you could send a radio message
in 7/5 days. And we all know there's no interstellar communicators
in Traveller.

c is c. QED.
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:46:32 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Older Traveller Products

>> Speaking of Crazy Egor's in Rochester - last time I was there
>> (about 2 years ago), he had some of the original 15mm
>> Traveller minis in stock. Just for anyone who is looking...
>>
>
>How far are these shops from Andover, MA?  This is where my new job will
>be.  (I'm currently in Camas, WA on the west coast)

408 miles according to Mapquest.  A bit much for a day trip.  Mostly
highway though, so probably 6-8 hours drive.

Closer to your new home is Excalibur Hobbies in Malden which has a very few
older items (I mostly cleaned them out over the years, sorry) and a
Compleat Strategist on Mass Ave in Boston which has at least the newer
stuff and some MT books last time I was there.

Also, New York City (or New Yahk as they'll say where you're going) is only
about 3.5 hours by car, or four by bus, which isn't too bad a ride.  Others
have described what NYC has to offer.

Crazy Egor showed up at the last GenCon I was at, and had a tremendous qty
of CT and MT products (I got all the seeker deckplans) but the prices left
somewhat to be desired.  Perhaps the better way to spend the money you
would need to goto Rochester would be to go to Milwaukee instead in August
(assuming, of course, GenCon happens this year).

Pete

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:56:47 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: GURPS Vehicles (Was Re: MT Conversions)

> Anders Backman posted:
>>OK, fellow gearheads, anybody have any formulas for translating
>>GURPS/TNE/T4 weaponry to MT? I looked over the 3G3 description
>>on the BTRC website and it didn't mention converting from other
>>gaming systems *to* MT.
>>
>>Help!
>
>To get a (better) grip on GURPS weapn stats avoid Gregs polynomial fit
>method in 3G3 and instead buy GURPS Vehicles 2ed and look at their
> weapon design system (the book is by far the best design system in
> RPGs,  well worth the buy even if you'll never play GURPS).

Already picked it up. It's been reprinted (hitting local stores as of last
week) and contains all the errata currently posted for the 2nd edition
on the SJG website. I am very impressed with the info in it. If you
liked TNE's FF&S, you'll like this one. I have yet to design any
weapons with it, though.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:07:06 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

> From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
 
> Here's a question.  I know that canon states (very clearly) that jumping from
> within 100 diameters is a *BAD* thing.  What I am curious about is whether or
> not it is canon that it is the GRAVITY field that causes the problem?  

IIRC, according to canon the problem is the gravity well, not 
electromagnetism. However, I don't remember exactly where in canon 
this is stated - it may have been an article on jumpspace in one of 
the _old_ JTASs.
- ---------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ USA
dss2@erols.com

Webpage:
http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:13:50 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Ethan Henry wrote:

> With all this debate on the constancy of the speed of light...
> regardless of how the actual universe works, in the Traveller
> universe, light speed must be constant.
>
> If you could go one parsec in one week at 1/5 "c" (where "c" is
> the local, changing speed of light) you could send a radio message
> in 7/5 days. And we all know there's no interstellar communicators
> in Traveller.

Thank you for pointing that out.  I mentioned it previously in another
post.  The simple solution is to encapsulate everything in a jump
bubble.  i.e. Light behaves in  the prescribed measure inside a jump
bubble.

Of course, even without the jump bubble, sending a transmition a parsec
away would require stupid amounts of energy and focusing would be a
problem.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:24:24 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: GURPS Vehicles (Was Re: MT Conversions)

>Already picked it up. It's been reprinted (hitting local stores as of last
>week) and contains all the errata currently posted for the 2nd edition
>on the SJG website. I am very impressed with the info in it. If you
>liked TNE's FF&S, you'll like this one. I have yet to design any
>weapons with it, though.

It's also a good source for integrating sensors into actual (combat)
gameplay as well as running vehicle chases, aircraft dogfights etc where
the vehicle stats actually play some part. It reminds me a bit about
Justice Inc and Danger International from Hero games who also had good
vehicle use rules.

I'll buy the new 2ed as I wasn't aware my first printing 2ed had any errors.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:04:37 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: GURPS Ship Design

Sigh.
I've just tried using the Spaceship design system in GURPS: Space to design
some merchant ships. I wanted to see if profitable merchants could be
designed (1000Cr/ton -> $1000/13.5 cy). However using the by-the-book
components, and assumping (GURPS) TL10, it seems rather impossible to make
a ship anything like standard traveller ships.
David Summer's conversion rules are just that, how to convert Traveller
ships to GURPS ships, rather than defining plug-ins for the GURPS system
for designing ships.
Has anyone played with this? Does anyone have plug-in components for GURPS:
Space that make traveller like ships?

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:29:53 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Crazy Egor  (Status of a Friend)

Fellow Travellers:

I thought I would let you know about Paul Meyer's situation, so here it is
from the horse's mouth.  Paul and I are good friends, having attended
McQuaid Jesuit High School together.  Please see that he hasn't left the
business totally, but will operate closer to his home in Hilton, NY about 45
minutes away from the shop in West Henrietta, NY.

QUOTE

From: CRAZY EGOR <CRAZYEGOR@aol.com>
Message-ID: <d855c6fd.34cf45bb@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:50:33 EST
To: quataert@kodak.com, DonSII@aol.com, cheng@io.com, cheng@global2000.net,
        ECG2313@exodus.valpo.edu, RTScott@kodak.com, ZARBOR@aol.com,
        kdistefano@hselaw.com, tdciampa@epix.net, 70461.3661@compuserve.com,
        Schulze@rge.com, eric@SoftwareScout.com, KTarb@aol.com, BAFoss@aol.com,
        GodwinSC@ptd.net, houghstow@library.uta.edu, Awautoma@aol.com,
        Dtbishopp@aol.com, 116601N@Knotes.kodak.COM, holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov,
        wallingc@erols.com, maier@libertynet.org, mfkelly@acsu.buffalo.edu,
        webb@rpa.net, Gschaefer@rhnet.org
Subject: Important note from Paul/Egor/'himself'
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)

Dear friends,
  This letter will be going out to my suppliers soon.  As friends and
associates I have worked with over the years, I wanted you to hear it from me
first.  
  The biggest thing to remember is I'm not dead yet!!!!.  I'm NOT selling "the
business'; only making myself smaller to weather the forthcoming storms.  I
will be happy to answer questions and will actually have a spot of time to
myself this spring.
  Thank you for your support!


  Paul

*************************************

Dear friends,
	I have been in this industry for a very long time. It is my life, love and
livelihood. Most of you already know of the health problems I have suffered
with the last couple of years.  Although five ruptured disks is generally not
fatal, it does pose a major inconvenience. The inconsistency of my physical
condition at this time is a significant threat to this wonderful store I have
developed.  It has hindered me in the past but today carries a far greater
danger to disrupt and damage this business.
	In an effort to care for my family as well as concentrate on my personal
health for the short term I am officially announcing my semi-retirement from
the 'giant retail store'.
	I have established a plan to take care of all my obligations, take care of my
employees and shrink the business into a smaller form that is more manageable
by my immediate family and that will not be as jeopardized by any long period
of disability.
	I am NOT selling Crazy Egor's; merely altering its structure.  By
intentionally making it smaller and concentrating in other directions I will
be able to take the time off this spring that is needed.  
	A new business, Millennium Games & Hobbies will be taking over the main
store.  They are purchasing the fixtures and will keep a very similar product
line.
	Crazy Egor will be moving it's base of operations within the next month to a
new facility in the village of Hilton New York.  We will still have a retail
operation but our primary emphasis will be our remanufacturing of older
product and our mail order business..
	All current Crazy Egor accounts will remain in place.  Orders will be lighter
for a while as we ramp up our already extensive web site.
	I deeply appreciate everyone's concern and friendship.  I know I can depend
on everyone's cooperation.  I feel we are making the right decision and the
best decision.  It will take care of everyone involved without undue side
effects.

Sincerely,

Paul W. Meyer 
Crazy Egor/'himself'

END QUOTE

No further details have been received.  I'm not even sure if the e-mail
address is correct at this point.  Should you like to check for a web page try:

http://www.crazyegors.com/home.html

I'm not sure if this is still current.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:35:06 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Jumpspace

Joe Petit wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thank you for pointing that out.  I mentioned it previously in another
post.  The simple solution is to encapsulate everything in a jump
bubble.  i.e. Light behaves in  the prescribed measure inside a jump
bubble.

Of course, even without the jump bubble, sending a transmition a parsec
away would require stupid amounts of energy and focusing would be a
problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Is your concept of Jump taking place in normal space, with a jump bubble
bending laws of physics within it? Seems this would allow someone to
shut off the power and simply drop into normal space - allowing a 
jump-6 ship to accomplish a Jump-1 in a day, at least to the edge of 
a gravity well.

As for sending FTL communications a parsec taking "stupid amounts"
of energy - there are people who would pay to be six days ahead
of the competition, no matter how stupid the energy requirements
were. Besides, once you have fusion power, it takes one monstrous
energy requirement to qualify as "stupid".


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:47:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Ship Design

On Wed, 15 Apr 1998 Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
> Sigh.
> I've just tried using the Spaceship design system in GURPS: Space to design
> some merchant ships. I wanted to see if profitable merchants could be
> designed (1000Cr/ton -> $1000/13.5 cy). However using the by-the-book
> components, and assumping (GURPS) TL10, it seems rather impossible to make
> a ship anything like standard traveller ships.
> David Summer's conversion rules are just that, how to convert Traveller
> ships to GURPS ships, rather than defining plug-ins for the GURPS system
> for designing ships.
> Has anyone played with this? Does anyone have plug-in components for GURPS:
> Space that make traveller like ships?

I'm hoping that GURPS Traveller doesn't use the ship design in GURPS
Space since it is incompatible with Vehicles.  I wouldn't mind seeing
a simplified ship design book geared towards GURPS Traveller come out
later, though.  (Or included in G:Traveller if they have the space).

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:23:47 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Leonard Erickson wrote, on the 100-diameter jump limit:

> What some of us came up with was that it may depend on the rate of
> change of the gravity field (ie the "steepness" of the "gravity well").
> This is essentially the same as tidal force, and is related to the
> *cube* of the distance. It even makes a sort of sense that it'd work
> that way. Trying to "stress" space that's already pretty stressed would
> tend to cause trouble, right?
>
> We came up with some figures you could use to figure the danger radius
> from various bodies based on mass. The less dense the body, the closer
> you could be. But the "danger range" from a ship or jump tank was
> pretty small.

For a sphere, mass increases as the cube of the diameter if density is
held constant.  Since rate of change varies as the cube of distance,
I think this means given two spherical objects of the same density but
different masses, the rate of change of the intensity of the gravity
field 100 diameters from either will be the same.  The intensity of
the gravity field itself will not be the same, but that apparently 
isn't the problem for jump drives (or the 100-diameter rule wouldn't
work).

So, given two starships with the same density as a typical planet, to
jump safely they'll need to be about 100 ship lengths apart.  For a
50-meter spherical ship of about 1500 displacement tons, this comes
out to about 5 km.  Less dense ships could manage somewhat closer,
but this works as an illustration.

The TNS articles on the drop tank ships imply that "long-storage"
capacitors were required.  Also, the Trimkhana-Brilliance didn't seem
to misjump, but was destroyed by capacitor discharge.  As I read it,
jump capacitors have to be discharged almost immediately from full
charge, or you get a spontaneous discharge that destroys the ship
just like a black globe overload.  On the other hand, the ship needs
to have enough time to get a safe distance between it and the drop
tanks to avoid misjump.

As I wrote for the descriptive text of my T4 Trimkhana-Brilliance
design, my guess is that improved military jump-capacitor technology
was developed for black globe equipped capital ships and drop tank
equipped ships like the Gazelles.  After the Fourth Frontier War,
the Imperium declassifies the technology, which allows Tukera to 
start using it on commercial drop tank equipped ships in the core.
The improved capacitor technology gives you only a little time more
before spontaneous discharge; enough to give a warship some more
breathing room or a liner to drop tanks, but not enough for the
Trimkhana-Brilliance to clear a defective drop tank that failed
to detach.  All this is conjecture, though.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:41:08 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: NERVA

>It took a bit of digging as they only mention the weight of the engine
>*once* in the article, but I found it. Engine weight= 15 tons, thrust=
>200,000 pounds. That gives a better than 6:1 thrust to weight ratio. Of
>course, you do have the small problem of fuel... :-)

6:1 is terrible for a rocket. That means that if I want 1.5 G acceleration 
for a decent lift-off, and have no payload, no mass for the structure or
fuel tanks, I still only get a mass ratio of 4:1, and can't make orbit
even with ISP of 800. Makes a good upper stage, though, since then you don't need
high acceleration.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:58:55 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Repai

God I loved the M100! I still have mine; though I don't use it anymore,
because I can't figure out how to do file swaps to a Windows machine (I
planned on using it as a peripheral-I go to the library; type in my data; come
home, and upload it into my desktop). I guess I'll have to buy a used Windows
laptop.

Ob. Traveller: PC's and NPC's using old, obsolete equipment as an
eccentricity.

Seth

PS. I have a copy of Aliens module #1 Aslan, and Alien Realms for trade. I
want the following to complete my collection:

Adventure #8 (Prison Planet)
Adventure #12 (Secret of the Ancients)
Adventure #13 (Signal GK)
The Traveller Adventure
Beltstrike

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:17:41 EDT
From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
Subject: travlist: re- looking to trade

hello all...

i am looking to trade the Classic Traveller Alien Module Aslan for the DPG
books Solomani and Aslans or Vilani and Vargr....   (i use to have it.. but
some one who i used to trust stole the bloody thing along with my vilani and
vargr handbook)

i really need them for some artwork i am working on...

rich

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:14:52 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [none]

>Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:07:30 +0100
The infiltrator wrote:

>Well a long time ago in a White Dwarf there was a Bounty Hunter article.
>It was usable on its own, but was intended that a character spent maybe a
>term or two in either the armed forces or the law enforcements before
>potentially getting a starship - Strontium Dog (2000AD) Bounty Hunter style.
>
>I cannot remember the number of the White Dwarf at the moment or the name
>of the author.

issue 70 October 1995 p26 to 27
"Dead or Alive: The Bounty Hunter as a Career in Traveller"
Diane & Richard John

I have it in front of me...

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:38:36 -0700
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD -- will it ever stop being rescheduled?

At 03:14 PM 4/14/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>At several people's request, the entry deadline for THUDDD 9 has been
>rescheduled yet again.  Final, absolute, certain deadline is Thursday 4/16
>at midnight PDT.
>
>
Craig,

Out of curiosity, how many entries have you now? I know of one. :-)

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:59 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Steven Bonneville wrote:

> 
> The TNS articles on the drop tank ships imply that "long-storage"
> capacitors were required.  Also, the Trimkhana-Brilliance didn't seem
> to misjump, but was destroyed by capacitor discharge.  As I read it,
> jump capacitors have to be discharged almost immediately from full
> charge, or you get a spontaneous discharge that destroys the ship
> just like a black globe overload.  On the other hand, the ship needs
> to have enough time to get a safe distance between it and the drop
> tanks to avoid misjump.
> 

Also, the reason the disaster happened is that the drop tanks di not
properly separate, hence the displacement of ship+drop tanks is greater
than the jump drives would handle. The reason they had the disastrous
capacitor overload is that they were trying to dump the drop tanks before
jump (which, given the displacement difference of theship vs. the ship
with attached drop tanks, would have resulted in a serious misjump)

The tanks don't mass enough to require the ship to be very far away, they
just can't be physically attached when the ship jumps.


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:03:56 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Vehicles (Was Re: MT Conversions)

Have the book and love it. I've started working on a spread sheet in Excel 5
and it's let me get into the design sequence. It truely is a gearhead dream,
much more (overly?!) detailed than even FF&S1.  It's also very nice that
they included rules to incorperate the vehicle designs into combat. This is
the integrated system I wish we'd seen in T4 and hope we see in T4+ when
Marc decides on a new publisher.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Anders Backman <anders.backman@aniware.se>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 15, 1998 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: GURPS Vehicles (Was Re: MT Conversions)


>>Already picked it up. It's been reprinted (hitting local stores as of
>>last
>>week) and contains all the errata currently posted for the 2nd edition
>>on the SJG website. I am very impressed with the info in it. If you
>>liked TNE's FF&S, you'll like this one. I have yet to design any
>>weapons with it, though.
>
>It's also a good source for integrating sensors into actual (combat)
>gameplay as well as running vehicle chases, aircraft dogfights etc where
>the vehicle stats actually play some part. It reminds me a bit about
>Justice Inc and Danger International from Hero games who also had good
>vehicle use rules.
>
>I'll buy the new 2ed as I wasn't aware my first printing 2ed had any
errors.
>
>
>/Anders Backman
>Aniware AB
>anders.backman@aniware.se
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 23:41 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Repair

Moin Sethkimmel,

> God I loved the M100! I still have mine; though I don't use it anymore,
> because I can't figure out how to do file swaps to a Windows machine (I
> planned on using it as a peripheral-I go to the library; type in my data; come
> home, and upload it into my desktop). I guess I'll have to buy a used Windows
> laptop.

	never seen the Tandy M100. I have a Atari-Portfolio as a pocket
	computer. The nice thing about is that its running MS-DOS, or
	better to say any .COM file. e.g. turbopascal 1.0 or dbase II.
	I have quite a lot of spreatsheets, (eg for astrogation,space
	combat) on this system and the build in calc is 1-2-3 compatible.
	As the portfolio has a serial port, and zmodem in rom, I have less
	problems of transphering programs and files to my workstation than
	most CE uses will have.

> Ob. Traveller: PC's and NPC's using old, obsolete equipment as an
> eccentricity.

	Its known that Dulinor used a cerimonial TL:6 Colt for Strephon.
	That why its good to be known as eccentric.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:28:26 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Crazy Egor  (Status of a Friend)

Eric Holmes wrote:

> operation but our primary emphasis will be our remanufacturing of older
> product and our mail order business..

Oh my! This could mean.. Nope, to big a hope to even contemplate...
But still...

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #395
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 16 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 396



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS Ship Design
Re: GURPS Ship Design
Re: GURPS Ship Design
Re: Repai
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Repai
Re: GURPS Vehicles 2nd Edition
Re: GURPS Ship Design
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re:  Jumpspace                  
Re: NERVA
Misjumps
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Long Distance Trade
Re: GURPS Ship Design
Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards
Re: Water as Bullets???
Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested
Re: Repai
Use of oldie equipment
Re: Jumpspace
Re: New Traveller Novel : Now I've finished

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:51:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Ship Design

Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com writes:
> Sigh.
> I've just tried using the Spaceship design system in GURPS: Space to design
> some merchant ships. I wanted to see if profitable merchants could be
> designed (1000Cr/ton -> $1000/13.5 cy). However using the by-the-book
> components, and assumping (GURPS) TL10, it seems rather impossible to make
> a ship anything like standard traveller ships.
> David Summer's conversion rules are just that, how to convert Traveller
> ships to GURPS ships, rather than defining plug-ins for the GURPS system
> for designing ships.
> Has anyone played with this? Does anyone have plug-in components for GURPS:
> Space that make traveller like ships?

Well, most GURPS gearheads have converted over to GURPS:Vehicles instead.  You
can do a reasonable job of building Traveller ships by making your vehicles TL
10 with TL 11 reactionless thrusters, plus requiring fuel consumption from your
FTL drives comparable to Traveller (assume 1 DT = 500 cf).  The resulting ships
are typically less dense and somewhat more effective than comparable Traveller
ships -- I haven't done a lot of conversions, but I went to the effort of
designing a far trader:
Volume: 100,000 cf (200 displacement tons)
Cost: $23 million (approx)
Performance: 1G, jump-2.  Fuel sufficient for Jump-2.
Crew: around 7 (3 engineering/mechanical crew required, other crew is pretty
much a matter of taste).  4 cabins
Passengers: 8 + 4 low.
Cargo Space: 50,000 cf, assumed to contain 500 (short) tons of cargo.
Weight: 405 tons empty, 1000 tons with full cargo and fuel load.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:58:26 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Ship Design

Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:04:37 +0100, Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com

>Sigh.
>I've just tried using the Spaceship design system in GURPS: Space to design
>some merchant ships. I wanted to see if profitable merchants could be
>designed (1000Cr/ton -> $1000/13.5 cy). However using the by-the-book
>components, and assumping (GURPS) TL10, it seems rather impossible to make
>a ship anything like standard traveller ships.
>David Summer's conversion rules are just that, how to convert Traveller
>ships to GURPS ships, rather than defining plug-ins for the GURPS system
>for designing ships.
>Has anyone played with this? Does anyone have plug-in components for GURPS:
>Space that make traveller like ships? 

When I made up a scout ship (which I posted to the GURPSnet
archive.) the only new component I really had to have was
Traveller style jump drive.  I found that I could take the
stats from MegaTraveller, convert the units, and just use it
as a GURPS Vehicles component (not counting price, though some
people on the GURPS list who have played with it say the costs
are pretty comperable).  For a maneuver drive you can use a 
GURPS drive.  They don't use near as much fuel as a 
Traveller maneuver drive, but then it all pales compared to
jump fuel.  (Though if you want you can either simply
require a GURPS maneuver drive to use the same amount
of fuel a Traveller one does, or you can use the MegaTraveller
stats as a component for GURPS Vehicles).  The only other
issues was, if I remember, grav plates for artificial 
gravity, which Vehicles didn't have (though that may be
dated.  I think I actually made up the ship before
Vehilces 2 came out).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:02:52 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Ship Design

OK, in previous message I didn't realise that the poster was
talking about using GURPS Space rather than GURPS Vehicles
to design ships.  I designed a ship using Vehicles, but
I think I established that the same thing applies to
using Space.  Just convert the units and use the
MegaTraveller stats as a component.  
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:22:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Repai

In mail you write:

>>At some point in the not *too* distant future, we are going to run up
>>against the physical limits of silicon technology. At that point, you
>>won't see "better" computers coming out yearly. And the developers will
>>have to go back to improving performance by writing better code instead
>>of counting on their customers buying a new computer.
>
> We've heard that a couple of times now. The physical limit of silicon has
> always been just around the corner, the same with modem speeds.

We've hit the limit with analog modems. 33.6k. The 56k is using a
*digital* return path. And it's pretty much a limit also.

And we are within sight of the point where quantum effects start
screwing up chip designs. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:25:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

>> It's not acceleration that hurts you. It's *resistance* to
>> acceleration. For example, in a uniform gravity field, you could be
>> accelerated at a million gees and never even notice. That's because
>> gravity accelerates all the particles equally. So as long as jump drive
>> does something similar, you are ok. Besides, there's no proof that the
>> distance covered in jumpspace is anywhere *near* the distance in normal
>> space. :-)
>
> The problem with very high gravity fields is that gravity is inversely
> proportional to distance squared. 

Only if it is from a point source or a sphere.

> Which means that at high gravity
> conditions, the front of your ship is accelerating faster than the back of
> your ship. Which results in the front of your ship getting ripped off.  Same
> thing applies to your body.  Very messy.

Again, it depends on the *shape* of the field. That's why I specified a
*uniform* field. For example, the field from a flat plate is *constant*
until your distance from the plate starts to approach the distance from
the edge of the plate. An infinitely wide flat plate would have a
gravity field that was the same *regardless* of distance from the plate!

The inverse square law is nothing but *geometry*. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:15:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Repai

In mail you write:

> God I loved the M100! I still have mine; though I don't use it
> anymore, because I can't figure out how to do file swaps to a Windows
> machine (I planned on using it as a peripheral-I go to the library;
> type in my data; come home, and upload it into my desktop). I guess
> I'll have to buy a used Windows laptop.

You should be able to use the Windows Terminal program. There's also a
driver that makes the 100 think your PC is a PDD. That makkes file xfer
even easier.

I have Multiplan ROMs in my 100s, so I tend to use them as a souped up
calculator. :-)

> Ob. Traveller: PC's and NPC's using old, obsolete equipment as an
> eccentricity.

Which is why I want to do some "ancient" ships that have been refitted
"just enough" to let them keep being used. The sort of thing a world
that has space flight might do after being contacted by the Imperium or
other star faring culture. 

Picture a Space Shuttle fitted with a small fusion generator, and maybe
a fusion or Helpar drive. As long as you don't land, you can keep using
the External tank and the *existing* plumbing for LH2. 

Or a fission powered spacecraft with a jump drive added.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:09:42 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: GURPS Vehicles 2nd Edition

On Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:20:47 -0400, you wrote:

>>To get a (better) grip on GURPS weapn stats avoid Gregs polynomial fit
>>method in 3G3 and instead buy GURPS Vehicles 2ed and look at their
>> weapon design system (the book is by far the best design system in
>> RPGs,  well worth the buy even if you'll never play GURPS).
>
>Already picked it up. It's been reprinted (hitting local stores as of
>last week) and contains all the errata currently posted for the 2nd edition
>on the SJG website. I am very impressed with the info in it. If you
>liked TNE's FF&S, you'll like this one. I have yet to design any
>weapons with it, though.

However, if you can, get a copy of GURPS Vehicles 1st Edition. The design system
there *works* ... or, to be more accurate, works in a sequential fashion. Sure,
the powerplant numbers are wrong, so use the 2nd Edition ones. The problem with
2nd edition is the same thing with MTrav and FF&S, you cannot design things
sequentially ... you have to have figures from steps supposedly further down the
design sequence before you actually have them (i.e. "Step 3 ... plug in figures
from Step 27!").

I would personally recommend Greg's VDS (Vehicle Design System) which is both
comprehensive *and* usable ... and provides far more detail than you'll ever
need in a form that is easy to understand and use.

Personally, I have all three ... I've used GV#1 extensively and VDS extensively,
but I wouldn't touch GV#2 with a 10' bargepole (same for FF&S or MTRav, both of
which I have as well).

Phil

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
YES! Dark Star is now available from Hyperbooks.com!
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:21:18 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Ship Design

Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:47:42 -0500 (CDT), Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
> I'm hoping that GURPS Traveller doesn't use the ship design in GURPS
> Space since it is incompatible with Vehicles.  I wouldn't mind seeing
> a simplified ship design book geared towards GURPS Traveller come out
> later, though.  (Or included in G:Traveller if they have the space).

Well, my understanding is that Vehicles is the default system.
There are, in fact, conversion notes for "FP" (fire power)
and DF (defensive factor) into the more standard GURPS terms
used in Vehicles and I think they are somewhat compatible
in that you can start using Space and then switch to Vehicles
if you want to get more into it (or, conversely, design
a ship in Vehicles and then design a similar one in Space).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:36:50 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Walter G. Smith wrote:

> Joe Petit wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Thank you for pointing that out.  I mentioned it previously in another
> post.  The simple solution is to encapsulate everything in a jump
> bubble.  i.e. Light behaves in  the prescribed measure inside a jump
> bubble.
>
> Of course, even without the jump bubble, sending a transmition a parsec
> away would require stupid amounts of energy and focusing would be a
> problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Is your concept of Jump taking place in normal space, with a jump bubble
> bending laws of physics within it? Seems this would allow someone to
> shut off the power and simply drop into normal space - allowing a
> jump-6 ship to accomplish a Jump-1 in a day, at least to the edge of
> a gravity well.
>

No, that doesn't work.  My theory postulates that for just under half a
week, you're still in your start system.  During the near zero time at the
halfway point, gravity drops low enough that your speed reaches nearly
infinity and thus catapults you a parsec (or six) in comparitively no time.
During the last half of the week, you fight your way through the gravity
well to your destination.  Thus if you drop out after one day, you're still
in your original system, not very far away from start either.  Now this does
make Jump-0 less than a week (but I'm willing to make an exception for that
case as it is the rare event as opposed to standard procedure).

> As for sending FTL communications a parsec taking "stupid amounts"
> of energy - there are people who would pay to be six days ahead
> of the competition, no matter how stupid the energy requirements
> were. Besides, once you have fusion power, it takes one monstrous
> energy requirement to qualify as "stupid".

You also need to focus it.  Going back to my original post, one of the
postulations is that focusing tech drops off at TL 15 (which would limit
accurate jumping and comms) and I wouldn't be so sure that FTL comm is
beyond the capability of TL 21 (I think you can teleport a parsec by then).

By Stupid amounts of power, I mean look at a star.  Now try to get some sort
of meaningful information out of it.  You would get comparable data flow
from comparable power levels (i.e. stellar power levels, i.e. a fusion
reactor the size of a sun)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:41:44 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

> For a sphere, mass increases as the cube of the diameter if density is
> held constant.  Since rate of change varies as the cube of distance,
> I think this means given two spherical objects of the same density but
> different masses, the rate of change of the intensity of the gravity
> field 100 diameters from either will be the same.  The intensity of
> the gravity field itself will not be the same, but that apparently
> isn't the problem for jump drives (or the 100-diameter rule wouldn't
> work).

Just for kicks last night I was tracking down some info on Voyager to find
out how far out it actually is.  The page included some data on Neptune
(compared to Earth).  I ran the gravitational formula for 100 diameters on
both and they came out rather close to the same amount of gravity at that
distance, about .002 G's. That might have been a coincidence though.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:46:58 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

> Again, it depends on the *shape* of the field. That's why I specified a
> *uniform* field. For example, the field from a flat plate is *constant*
> until your distance from the plate starts to approach the distance from
> the edge of the plate. An infinitely wide flat plate would have a
> gravity field that was the same *regardless* of distance from the plate!
>
> The inverse square law is nothing but *geometry*.

No, if the plate is producing Black hole levels of gravity, then as your nose
approaches the plate, it will be accelerated faster than the tail of your ship
producing the same problem. The whole volume would have to accelerate at the same
rate to prevent this.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:25:44 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re:  Jumpspace                  

At 12:37 pm 4/15/98 +1200, you wrote:
>At 05:00 PM 14/04/98 -0700, Bruce wrote:
>
>>In addition, you can measure the speed of light between here and Jupiter 
>>(or Saturn or Neptune) by watching the relative timing of eclipses of 
>>the moons of those planets as the Earth moves closer and farther from them.
>>(Ten points to anyone who can tell me why this doesn't work for Uranus.)
>
>I know, I know...
>
>It's 'cause Uranus has a huge axial tilt. IIRC 93 degrees, or there abouts.

	Hey, let's not get personal ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 23:18:35 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: NERVA

On 04/14/98 at 11:11 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>There was also a story in Analog some years back where we never got into
>the "space race" with the Soviets. So things like the X-15, and other high
>altitude/high speed military *and* civilian experimental craft just kept
>going faster and higher. And there were experimental rockets as well. By
>the mid-80s, they were only just getting ready to launch a moon flight,
>but there was *extensive* presence in earth orbit. The moon flight(s) were
>several independent projects. Most folks figured the National Geographic
>society would be first, but the British Interplanetary Society was running
>a close second. 

I really enjoyed that story. ;->  Part of the premise was that aerospace
technology went the route of microelectronics technology with lots of
private innovation and less government intervention/control. This
*supposedly* lead to breakthroughs that allowed inexpensive earth to orbit
vehicles that "garage mechanics" could build.

It was a pipe-dream, of course, but a very enjoyable one.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:34:41 -0700
From: Wes Morris <wmorris@netwits.com>
Subject: Misjumps

I don't understand the T4 misjump possibility. The base roll is 2-, and
there are only positive modifiers to that roll (p116, T4.) I think this
means that, in the best of cases, there is a 1 in 36 chance of a
misjump. For a ship that jumps twice a month, every 18 months that crew
would misjump. If the average star density is 50%, then every other
misjump would be to a map hex with no star system. Life expectency for
traveller's just became 36 months.

I know I must be misunderstanding something. What is it?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:38:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

>> Again, it depends on the *shape* of the field. That's why I specified a
>> *uniform* field. For example, the field from a flat plate is *constant*
>> until your distance from the plate starts to approach the distance from
>> the edge of the plate. An infinitely wide flat plate would have a
>> gravity field that was the same *regardless* of distance from the plate!
>>
>> The inverse square law is nothing but *geometry*.
>
> No, if the plate is producing Black hole levels of gravity, then as
> your nose approaches the plate, it will be accelerated faster than
> the tail of your ship producing the same problem. The whole volume
> would have to accelerate at the same rate to prevent this.

And it *does*. There's no drop in acceleration with distance. Thus,
there's no gravity differential to rip you apart *regardless* of the
field strength. The field strength depends on the density and thickness
of the plate, nothing else.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:02:16
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Long Distance Trade

>From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Viability of Longhaul Trade
>
>Thanks for all the work.  You know, I think this analysis points out a
>problem in Imperial trade.  It's difficult for a starship to make enough
>money carrying freight to pay off it's mortgage, but you can ship TL 2
>tents 45 jumps before the price of shipping gets to high. 
>

This isnt strictly true. See, you buy goods in local credits, but the
transport costs are in Imperial credits (or at least in the credits of
TL9-11 worlds).

Assume our TL2 Yurt costs Cr200 a liter (lots of nice embroidery). However,
the TL2 world it's on has a currency worth 0.05 of an Imperial credit.
Therefore, the Yurt costs ICr 10 per liter, and thus isnt really worth
shipping. Unless of course Joe Noble wants one, and is prepared to pay well
over the objective value for it, on account of it being a marvellous
example of pre-industrial craftmanship.

>Either the megacarriers are doing a whole hell of a lot of interstellar
>trade (as in each industrial planet in a subsector specializes in a
>different set of commodities and the megacarriers ship between them, or we
>need to raise shipping costs somewhat (maybe to 2,000 Cr/Td). 
>

Raising shipping costs by fiat doesnt work. You have to raise the cost of
shipping, either by increasing interest rates, or cost of ship components,
or misjump chances.

>Actually at this level it would be easier to make a living hauling cargo,
>but the viability of long-distance trade would still be high.  I think
>we're looking at a lot more trade than most people think.  I sort of like
>this idea. 
>
>Just as a start this would have a few obvious game impacts:
>
>1) Rich folks on any world with a starport could have high tech stuff,
>*regardless* of the tech level of the world.  More importantly, some of
>the rich folk's private guards would have high tech weapons and armor. 
>This spices up visits to those TL 5 &6 worlds in a way I like a whole lot. 

Well, yes. A limiting factor is that offworld goods have to be maintained,
technicians shipped in etc. Striker suggests maintainence costs of 20% of
import price per year for off-world technology.

>
>2) This type of interdependence likely existed during the First & Second
>Imperium's also.  This would explain why the Long Night was so tough on
>lots of worlds.  Even many of the wealthy, industrial worlds were not even
>close to self-sufficient. 
>
>Trade in the Imperium isn't just shipping out valuable surplus goods
>(which largely defined pre-trade), it's producing goods which are used to
>buy vital necessities which are not produced at home (much like trade in
>the late 20th century). 
>
>Comments?

Agreed, although I suspect that long-distance (more than 12 parsecs or so)
trade is limited to very valuable goods.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:09:46 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Ship Design

David P. Summers wrote:

> Well, my understanding is that Vehicles is the default system.
> There are, in fact, conversion notes for "FP" (fire power)
> and DF (defensive factor) into the more standard GURPS terms
> used in Vehicles and I think they are somewhat compatible
> in that you can start using Space and then switch to Vehicles
> if you want to get more into it (or, conversely, design
> a ship in Vehicles and then design a similar one in Space).
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu

 Dave it's the other way around, Vehicles give conversions to Space.
Which is useful if you are using the Space combat system.
BTW, this system is repeated in Compendium 2.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
 Fortalice Desertum
 (Home of the ClusterNuke)
 AD. 1998

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:12:44 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards

On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Sethkimmel wrote:

> I spell check, and THEN proof read with the red pencil. :-)

Bad idea. So you get more work to do - with the spell checkers I know ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:31:49 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Water as Bullets???

On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 s.johnson107@genie.geis.com wrote:

>     In the past couple of months someone on the list mentioned an attempt to
> use water as a bullet by hyper accelerating it?  Can someone detail this for
> me?  The subject came up with one of my players and now we're both very
> curious! ;)

This will not be quite the right answer, but an additional:

There's a fish (don't know the zoological nor the english name), which
'spits' his prey (mostly insects) unconcious with water 'bullets'.

If you try to shoot someone with water, this weapon will possibly create
more havoc than you suspect. Nowadays there already are carving tools
available which work on high pressurized water beams.
Refer to the 'waterknife' in Emperor's Arsenal.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:15:19 -0500
From: iresources@juno.com (Vic&Amy Canada)
Subject: Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested

>I would therefore appreciate it if you'd hit Freelance Traveller
>with every version of every browser you can lay your hands on,
>and let me know what the results are.

Looks great in IE4


Vic
iresources@juno.com
http://www.iresources.net
http://www.iresources.net/ifc
http://www.evidence.net

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:26:52 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Repai

>And we are within sight of the point where quantum effects start
>screwing up chip designs.

The manufacturers will put several CPUs on each chip. This is already done
today with the multiple execution units in RISC chips. In 10 years the
standard CPU might run at a few GHz but perhaps 16-64 CPUs in it.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:30:37 -0400
From: Hugh Foster <Hugh_Foster@compuserve.com>
Subject: Use of oldie equipment

Hello, hello, I'm back again. Thought I'd dip into the list 
again to see if the out-and-out warfare that drove me off 
awhile back had abated and this ish looks fairly civilized 
and interesting.

I've been out of touch; any truth to rumours of IG going tits-up?

>> Its known that Dulinor used a cerimonial TL:6 Colt for 
Strephon.  	That why its good to be known as eccentric. <<

That's also why it didn't jam, misfire etc. Old stuff tends 
to be ruggeder. 


[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
| Internet:                       hugh_foster@compuserve.com |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
|                      Now Back on the Web!                  |
| Never wear anything that panics the cat.                     |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:52:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Howdy!

Leonard replied to someone who replied to him:
> In mail you write:
> 
> >> Again, it depends on the *shape* of the field. That's why I specified a
> >> *uniform* field. For example, the field from a flat plate is *constant*
> >> until your distance from the plate starts to approach the distance from
> >> the edge of the plate. An infinitely wide flat plate would have a
> >> gravity field that was the same *regardless* of distance from the plate!
> >>
> >> The inverse square law is nothing but *geometry*.
> >
> > No, if the plate is producing Black hole levels of gravity, then as
> > your nose approaches the plate, it will be accelerated faster than
> > the tail of your ship producing the same problem. The whole volume
> > would have to accelerate at the same rate to prevent this.
> 
> And it *does*. There's no drop in acceleration with distance. Thus,
> there's no gravity differential to rip you apart *regardless* of the
> field strength. The field strength depends on the density and thickness
> of the plate, nothing else.
> 
Leonard posits a flat plate of infinite dimension. While this is handy
for the rest of his argument, it does not yield a useful real-world result.

The response overlooks this peculiar condition, appearing to assume a finite
plate.

A finite plate of a size to have a meaningful gravitational field would also
have problems with avoiding self-collapse into a lower gravitational
energy state, namely an approximation of a sphere.

The inverse square law models reality. Geometric methods are handy for 
showing that it is an accurate model, but the relationship is real.

yours,
Michael


- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:00:09 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: New Traveller Novel : Now I've finished

A more complete diagnosis of the new Traveller novel, "Gateway to the Stars".

The author's familiarity with Traveller, as Marc pointed out, is a passing
one rather than a truly deep understanding including the implications of
near-c rocks and technologically elevated dictators.

I would say, however, that this type of publication is definitely the
vector for getting new traveller players on board.  The departures from a
sketchy form of canon are minor in terms of gameplay, and the attachments
to the Traveller background and scheme are solidly there.

This novel is worth picking up if you are in for a long car trip and want a
good yarn to keep you company, especially if you can get it at a discount
as I did (friends in low places you know).  It was a quick read, and the
story was easy to follow, full of action and intrigue, and the dialogue,
while not Hemingway, was just fine.  The Travelleresque aspects were alos
entertaining (when correct; which was most of the time IMHO).  Certainly,
it was as good or better than the David Drake novel I read just before it
("The Voyage") which I cannot recommend.

There are several pages (4-6) of basic Traveller character generation rules
apparently designed to sort of pull in someone completely unfamiliar with
the game.  It gives some excellent basic ideas of what characteristics
really mean in just a few pages.

The novel ends with the words "To be continued..." and the story is
somewhat incomplete at that point.  Hopefully the author already had the
other two novels in the series (or other seven for all I know) "in the can"
and we'll see them on the shelf soon.

One possible outcome; This novel may lead some of you to say "hey! I can
write this stuff!".  I think more Traveller novels is definitely the way to
go.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #396
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 16 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 397



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jumpspace
Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested
Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)
Reaver's Deep
Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested
Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)
Website redone...
Traveller Novel
Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards
Re: New Traveller Novel : Now I've finished
Re: New Traveller Novel : Now I've finished
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Use of oldie equipment
Re: Jumpspace
Re: New Traveller Novel : Now I've finished
If my head weren't screwed on..
PBeM preparing for Launch
Re: Jumpspace
FTL commo
Re: Jumpspace
Re: FTL commo

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:58:29 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> >> Again, it depends on the *shape* of the field. That's why I specified a
> >> *uniform* field. For example, the field from a flat plate is *constant*
> >> until your distance from the plate starts to approach the distance from
> >> the edge of the plate. An infinitely wide flat plate would have a
> >> gravity field that was the same *regardless* of distance from the plate!
> >>
> >> The inverse square law is nothing but *geometry*.
> >
> > No, if the plate is producing Black hole levels of gravity, then as
> > your nose approaches the plate, it will be accelerated faster than
> > the tail of your ship producing the same problem. The whole volume
> > would have to accelerate at the same rate to prevent this.
>
> And it *does*. There's no drop in acceleration with distance. Thus,
> there's no gravity differential to rip you apart *regardless* of the
> field strength. The field strength depends on the density and thickness
> of the plate, nothing else.

Distance from front of ship to plate = D
Distance from back of ship to plate = D+L

Acceleration on front of ship = G/D^2
Acceleration on back of ship = G/(D+L)^2

At extremely large G's and large L vs. D, the gravitational differencial will
rip a ship apart.  A plane will do this just as bad as a point source.  Unless
you can think of a source in which all points within the ship are equidistant
from it, you'll always have this problem.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:39:08 +0200
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested

Vic&Amy Canada wrote:
> 
> >I would therefore appreciate it if you'd hit Freelance Traveller
> >with every version of every browser you can lay your hands on,
> >and let me know what the results are.
Not bad on NS 3.x Gold and NS 4.04 either

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:07:20 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)

Steven Bonneville writes:
>So, given two starships with the same density as a typical planet, to
>jump safely they'll need to be about 100 ship lengths apart.  For a
>50-meter spherical ship of about 1500 displacement tons, this comes
>out to about 5 km.  Less dense ships could manage somewhat closer,
>but this works as an illustration.

Keep in mind that empty drop tanks have a very low density.
 
>The TNS articles on the drop tank ships imply that "long-storage"
>capacitors were required.  Also, the Trimkhana-Brilliance didn't seem
>to misjump, but was destroyed by capacitor discharge.

As I read it, the drop tank failed to separate at all, making it impossible
for the ship to jump, whereupon the capacitors discharged and ripped open
the ship.

>As I read it, jump capacitors have to be discharged almost immediately from
>full charge, or you get a spontaneous discharge that destroys the ship
>just like a black globe overload.

Right. Old Style capacitors must discharge so soon after reaching full
charge that there is not enough time to safely get rid of drop tanks.
The "long-storage" capacitors invented in the late 11th Century can keep
the charge for a few minutes, but no longer (If you believe what _SOM_
says about being able to keep capacitors charged for several hours, then
the drop tanks of 1105 a "first generation" of the new technology and
matures considerably between 1105 and 1115).

One thing: Since _High Guard_ does not mention a TL limitation on drop
tanks, these "long-term" capacitors would seem to represent a genuine
new invention, not possible at any TL before 1050 or so, but possible
at TL 9 once it has been invented.

>On the other hand, the ship needs to have enough time to get a safe
>distance between it and the drop tanks to avoid misjump.

Yeah, but the ship only needs to get a safe distance from the drop tanks,
which will be much less than the safe distance from a ship (since an
empty drop tank has so low a density). The whole explanation is very
"hand-wavy" (Not that I mind terribly, but I know there are others that do).



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:21:49 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Reaver's Deep

Anybody got any online source material on the Reaver's Deep sector?  I've been 
cruising the WebRing and seem to find just about everything BUT.  In 
particular, I need info on it around IY 1200.  Maps would be cool, but a list 
of subsectors & palentary data will do.

Thanxx.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:21:16 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested

V.A.G wrote:

> Vic&Amy Canada wrote:
> >
> > >I would therefore appreciate it if you'd hit Freelance Traveller
> > >with every version of every browser you can lay your hands on,
> > >and let me know what the results are.
> Not bad on NS 3.x Gold and NS 4.04 either

For anybody else testing, try reducing your window size to about 400x600
or smaller.  Maybe 320x200.  Then you should see the aforementioned
problem.  Which isn't a problem really, just that somebody is looking at
the page outside of its parameters. Try including a "Best viewed in
800x600 mode" disclaimer.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:13:17 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Steven Bonneville writes:
> >So, given two starships with the same density as a typical planet, to
> >jump safely they'll need to be about 100 ship lengths apart.  For a
> >50-meter spherical ship of about 1500 displacement tons, this comes
> >out to about 5 km.  Less dense ships could manage somewhat closer,
> >but this works as an illustration.
>
> Keep in mind that empty drop tanks have a very low density.
>
> >The TNS articles on the drop tank ships imply that "long-storage"
> >capacitors were required.  Also, the Trimkhana-Brilliance didn't seem
> >to misjump, but was destroyed by capacitor discharge.
>
> As I read it, the drop tank failed to separate at all, making it impossible
> for the ship to jump, whereupon the capacitors discharged and ripped open
> the ship.
>
> >As I read it, jump capacitors have to be discharged almost immediately from
> >full charge, or you get a spontaneous discharge that destroys the ship
> >just like a black globe overload.
>
> Right. Old Style capacitors must discharge so soon after reaching full
> charge that there is not enough time to safely get rid of drop tanks.
> The "long-storage" capacitors invented in the late 11th Century can keep
> the charge for a few minutes, but no longer (If you believe what _SOM_
> says about being able to keep capacitors charged for several hours, then
> the drop tanks of 1105 a "first generation" of the new technology and
> matures considerably between 1105 and 1115).
>
> One thing: Since _High Guard_ does not mention a TL limitation on drop
> tanks, these "long-term" capacitors would seem to represent a genuine
> new invention, not possible at any TL before 1050 or so, but possible
> at TL 9 once it has been invented.
>
> >On the other hand, the ship needs to have enough time to get a safe
> >distance between it and the drop tanks to avoid misjump.
>
> Yeah, but the ship only needs to get a safe distance from the drop tanks,
> which will be much less than the safe distance from a ship (since an
> empty drop tank has so low a density). The whole explanation is very
> "hand-wavy" (Not that I mind terribly, but I know there are others that do).

I was under the impression that this sort of charge was stored in an overloaded
HPG.  Although beyond its safe limits, it could maintain the charge for a short
period without flying apart.  Stronger materials can increase the safe load, but
you can still overload it a bit if you keep the charge short.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:22:19 -0500
From: The Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Website redone...

For anyone who has linked their webpage to mine (the "Traveller's Guide
to the Community"), it has been redone and the URL has changed.

The URL _USED_ to be: www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm

The new URL is: www.ames.net/igor/traveller/index.htm

The new website is under construction, so some of the links aren't
completely up. But there are now three versions of the site: a
high-bandwidth graphics/frames/javascript version; a low-bandwidth text
only version; and a master file list version that simply contains files
to download (if you want stuff, but don't want to wade through the
site). My FF&S and Robots spreadsheets are currently only on the file
list page.

Please visit the site and let me know what you think of the format - I
promise to get the old material (and some new material) up as soon as
possible.

- -- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew, Christine, and Matthew Akins                               |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:32:04 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Traveller Novel

Could someone please email me (not the list) publishers data for the
Traveller novel, so I can order it?  That file was (possibly) lost in my
recent computer crash. (I did make backups, but my backup is writing exams
right now and I don't want to disturb him for minor things.

Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:26:40 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: New Traveller Novel Lives up to Established Traveller Standards

It doesn't solve the herd-heard problem.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:58:02 +0100 (BST)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Traveller Novel : Now I've finished

G'day ...

Anyone got the ISBN, and author to Gateway to the start ?

Thanks

Ewan


	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'

                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:12:49 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: New Traveller Novel : Now I've finished

>G'day ...
>
>Anyone got the ISBN, and author to Gateway to the start ?


Gateway to the Stars (Marc Miller's Traveller)
                                     by Pierce Askegren
                                     List: $5.99
                                     Our Price: $4.79
                                     You Save: $1.20 (20%)

                                     Mass Market Paperback, 320 pages
                                     Published by Byron Press Multimedia Books
                                     Publication date: May 1998
                                     ISBN: 067101188X

From Amazon.com.

Pete

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:23:47 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 08:58 AM 4/16/98 -0400, Joe Petit wrote:
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> In mail you write:
>> >> Again, it depends on the *shape* of the field. That's why I specified a
>> >> *uniform* field. For example, the field from a flat plate is *constant*
>> >> until your distance from the plate starts to approach the distance from
>> >> the edge of the plate. An infinitely wide flat plate would have a
>> >> gravity field that was the same *regardless* of distance from the plate!
>> >>
>> >> The inverse square law is nothing but *geometry*.
>> >
>> > No, if the plate is producing Black hole levels of gravity, then as
>> > your nose approaches the plate, it will be accelerated faster than
>> > the tail of your ship producing the same problem. The whole volume
>> > would have to accelerate at the same rate to prevent this.
>>
>> And it *does*. There's no drop in acceleration with distance. Thus,
>> there's no gravity differential to rip you apart *regardless* of the
>> field strength. The field strength depends on the density and thickness
>> of the plate, nothing else.
>
>Distance from front of ship to plate = D
>Distance from back of ship to plate = D+L
>
>Acceleration on front of ship = G/D^2
>Acceleration on back of ship = G/(D+L)^2

These last two seem to be accurate for a point source, but not a plane.  An
infinite flat plate has a constant force, and an infinite line falls off as
a log, IIRC.  For the real details, get a copy of Halliday and Resnick, and
take a look at the chapter on calculating the electric and gravitational
potential near objects of various shapes.  (I would give chapter and verse,
but I have not yet picked up the latest edition.)

As a way to determine this directly, integrate over the area of the plate,
noting that you are subject to a potential of -(G dM m)/r from each element
of mass dM, and you can find a function that gives you r in terms of x and
y, as well as dM in terms of dx and dy.

F = int(P).

From this, you can determine the result of a non infinite plane, and find
the size of a disk needed to produce a desired force without substantial
edge effects.  Charles Sheffeild used this in his MacAndrew Chronicles for
a balanced drive.

>At extremely large G's and large L vs. D, the gravitational differencial will
>rip a ship apart.  A plane will do this just as bad as a point source.
Unless
>you can think of a source in which all points within the ship are equidistant
>from it, you'll always have this problem.

Not so.  As Leonard has pointed out, a plane is very different from a point
source.

This is quite germane, BTW, as Traveller has fields that are essentially
constant, else they would need to have the decks point in the direction of
thrust.  How they do it is not revealed, and it is not revealed whether the
fields drop to zero at the hull, making it a "gravity ground" as it were,
or whether they are symmetric.

Scott


Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:37:30 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Use of oldie equipment

> I've been out of touch; any truth to rumours of IG going tits-up?

More than a rumor.  They're finished.

> >> Its known that Dulinor used a cerimonial TL:6 Colt for 
> Strephon.  	That why its good to be known as eccentric. <<
> 
> That's also why it didn't jam, misfire etc. Old stuff tends 
> to be ruggeder. 

Not always, but, the old stuff that isn't rugged doesn't survive to be
called "old".

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:05:31 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Scott Ellsworth wrote:

> At 08:58 AM 4/16/98 -0400, Joe Petit wrote:
> >Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >> In mail you write:
> >> >> Again, it depends on the *shape* of the field. That's why I specified a
> >> >> *uniform* field. For example, the field from a flat plate is *constant*
> >> >> until your distance from the plate starts to approach the distance from
> >> >> the edge of the plate. An infinitely wide flat plate would have a
> >> >> gravity field that was the same *regardless* of distance from the plate!
> >> >>
> >> >> The inverse square law is nothing but *geometry*.
> >> >
> >> > No, if the plate is producing Black hole levels of gravity, then as
> >> > your nose approaches the plate, it will be accelerated faster than
> >> > the tail of your ship producing the same problem. The whole volume
> >> > would have to accelerate at the same rate to prevent this.
> >>
> >> And it *does*. There's no drop in acceleration with distance. Thus,
> >> there's no gravity differential to rip you apart *regardless* of the
> >> field strength. The field strength depends on the density and thickness
> >> of the plate, nothing else.
> >
> >Distance from front of ship to plate = D
> >Distance from back of ship to plate = D+L
> >
> >Acceleration on front of ship = G/D^2
> >Acceleration on back of ship = G/(D+L)^2
>
> These last two seem to be accurate for a point source, but not a plane.

I'm assuming that the gravitational force is acting perpendicular to the plane and
that the front to back axis is in line with the  perpendicular.

Now if you're saying that the whole gravitational field is pulling, then you have
the situation where the gravity on either side of the ship pulling it apart
sideways, and I still think the nose will get ripped off.

> An
> infinite flat plate has a constant force, and an infinite line falls off as
> a log, IIRC.  For the real details, get a copy of Halliday and Resnick, and
> take a look at the chapter on calculating the electric and gravitational
> potential near objects of various shapes.  (I would give chapter and verse,
> but I have not yet picked up the latest edition.)
>
> As a way to determine this directly, integrate over the area of the plate,
> noting that you are subject to a potential of -(G dM m)/r from each element
> of mass dM, and you can find a function that gives you r in terms of x and
> y, as well as dM in terms of dx and dy.
>
> F = int(P).
>
> >From this, you can determine the result of a non infinite plane, and find
> the size of a disk needed to produce a desired force without substantial
> edge effects.  Charles Sheffeild used this in his MacAndrew Chronicles for
> a balanced drive.
>
> >At extremely large G's and large L vs. D, the gravitational differencial will
> >rip a ship apart.  A plane will do this just as bad as a point source.
> Unless
> >you can think of a source in which all points within the ship are equidistant
> >from it, you'll always have this problem.
>
> Not so.  As Leonard has pointed out, a plane is very different from a point
> source.
>

I'm affraid somebody else will have to do the integration to prove this (its been
a while for me)... let me see if I can figure out some of it.

G = Sum( gravity at various points)
      Gr = gravity at r radius from perpendicular intersection of plane (0 r =
point of impact on plane)
      Gr(D) = G/ (r^2 + D^2)  [from pythagorean theorum and newtonian graviation]
      Gr(D + L) = G/(r^2 + (D+L)^2)
     Sum r:0->Infinity Gr(D)
Without going through the integration, as r approaches infinity D and L become
less important.  As D approaches 0 L become more important.   If I'm picturing
this right, a planar gravity body has even more effect on the gravitational
disparity than a point source.  L ends up reducing gravity a little bit over the
whole summation thus the gravity at the front of the ship ends up proportionally
greater.

> This is quite germane, BTW, as Traveller has fields that are essentially
> constant, else they would need to have the decks point in the direction of
> thrust.

They use contra grav to imitate this.  If your ship is flying like a boat in
water, acceleration is acting perpendicular to your ship's gravity ground.  To
compensate, they generate gravity opposite of this thrust to balance out the
vectors.  Then they add gravity on the otherwise zero G environment to give you a
gravitic ground.  Note that some ships accelerate in line with their gravitational
normal. I think the Mercenary cruiser is one.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:13:16 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: New Traveller Novel : Now I've finished

At 12:12 PM 4/16/98 -0400, Peter wrote:
>Gateway to the Stars (Marc Miller's Traveller)
>                                     by Pierce Askegren
>                                     List: $5.99
>                                     Our Price: $4.79
>                                     You Save: $1.20 (20%)
>>From Amazon.com.

+$3.95 shipping.  I just went and ordered it, expecting standard shipping
by US mail, for a small paper back would be a buck or so.  Even a priority
mail order would only be $3.  Ouch.  But hey, they will probably through in
the "comp shipping upgrade" to priority anyway.

Amazon.com is too dangerous.  Once click ordering.........

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:44:55 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: If my head weren't screwed on..

I need to contact two people.

Mike Linsenmayer, your ship designs are almost done, but I've lost you
email address.

Also, the person selling me the Spinward Marches Campaign, my neat freak
roommate threw out the paper with your address, please email me again.

brain?  what brain?
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:49:08 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: PBeM preparing for Launch

Hiya everyone!!  Listen, I've only gotten 3 or 4 replies concerning the
PBem.  Anyone else out there interested?  Mail me!!!  And check out my
site (URL below) for further details, its gathering together slowly.

Jim A. Clem
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt+ au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
You might be a Traveller player if...Your resume includes a UPP and
skills list.


_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:31:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>> Joe Petit wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> Thank you for pointing that out.  I mentioned it previously in another
>> post.  The simple solution is to encapsulate everything in a jump
>> bubble.  i.e. Light behaves in  the prescribed measure inside a jump
>> bubble.

  By this model, wouldn't a Jump to empty space only take half a week?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:41:48 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: FTL commo

>> Of course, even without the jump bubble, sending a transmition a parsec
>> away would require stupid amounts of energy and focusing would be a
>> problem.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
...
>> As for sending FTL communications a parsec taking "stupid amounts"
>> of energy - there are people who would pay to be six days ahead
>> of the competition, no matter how stupid the energy requirements
>> were. Besides, once you have fusion power, it takes one monstrous
>> energy requirement to qualify as "stupid".
...
>By Stupid amounts of power, I mean look at a star.  Now try to get some sort
>of meaningful information out of it.  You would get comparable data flow
>from comparable power levels (i.e. stellar power levels, i.e. a fusion
>reactor the size of a sun)

  I'd have to check with a specialist to be sure, but I suspect the
analogy here is not relevent. Also, while the size of the transmitter
focussing array might be an issue, even if stationary, the receivers
can be truly huge, and largely replace the strategic aspect of the
X-Boat system by having links set up at major sector capitals and
Capital, for example. With all units set up "outside" stellar gravity
wells, the commo beams should be effectively instantaneous by the
model suggested.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:58:59 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Steven Hudson wrote:

> >> Joe Petit wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> Thank you for pointing that out.  I mentioned it previously in another
> >> post.  The simple solution is to encapsulate everything in a jump
> >> bubble.  i.e. Light behaves in  the prescribed measure inside a jump
> >> bubble.
>
>   By this model, wouldn't a Jump to empty space only take half a week?

  Actually, by my model jumping to an empty space would be nearly
impossible.  Without a gravity well to guide you or slow you down, stopping
at the right point becomes problematic.  Keep in mind that in an empty space
your moving at nearly infinity.  Now, if you're jumping from the outer limits
of a system to the outer limits of another system, then travel time would be
less.  But this can be accounted for since jumps take 6 to 8 days or 5 to 9
days with a "misjump".  The  variability occurs because you can't target a
planet until you're in the system, by that time you're moving relatively
slow.  So if your destination planet is on the far side of the system, your
trip will take longer. If you luck out and your destination is really close
to your system entry point, your trip would be quicker.

The concept is to mimic the rules with theory.  The rules do have some
variability in travel time. Misjumps involves being slightly off center,
targeting the star, which puts you entering the system at the edge.  At the
edge, you might be close to your planet, or you could target the wrong edge,
thus the +/- 2 days.  A aggravated misjump would miss the system entirely
where the impure fuel or gravitational proximity warps your targeting.  The
result could send you d6 x d6 parsecs away at "near infinite" speed.  At
which point, various systems that you've passed near affect your trajectory
and either you stop inside a system, or in those few seconds that you're at
"ludicrous speed" you manage to drop the bubble (unlikely) or you run out of
jump fuel to  pull you through jumpspace. Since there's no inertia (by
assumption), you stop (then you drop your jump bubble)

My theory does allow for intentional aggravated catastrophic jumps, i.e. "I
don't aim for a star. Engage jump drive... let's see what happens."

Since you do have to make some decisions about which gravitational
perturbation to fall into, this also lends credence to the "All starships
must have a concious pilot" rule.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:15:25 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: FTL commo

Steven Hudson wrote:

> >> Of course, even without the jump bubble, sending a transmition a parsec
> >> away would require stupid amounts of energy and focusing would be a
> >> problem.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> ...
> >> As for sending FTL communications a parsec taking "stupid amounts"
> >> of energy - there are people who would pay to be six days ahead
> >> of the competition, no matter how stupid the energy requirements
> >> were. Besides, once you have fusion power, it takes one monstrous
> >> energy requirement to qualify as "stupid".
> ...
> >By Stupid amounts of power, I mean look at a star.  Now try to get some sort
> >of meaningful information out of it.  You would get comparable data flow
> >from comparable power levels (i.e. stellar power levels, i.e. a fusion
> >reactor the size of a sun)
>
>   I'd have to check with a specialist to be sure, but I suspect the
> analogy here is not relevent.

I did some checking last night.  Radio waves take about one millionth the power
that light waves take. So it would take a millionth the size of a sun for the
transmitter. Which is about planetary scale?

> Also, while the size of the transmitter
> focussing array might be an issue, even if stationary, the receivers
> can be truly huge, and largely replace the strategic aspect of the
> X-Boat system by having links set up at major sector capitals and
> Capital, for example. With all units set up "outside" stellar gravity
> wells, the commo beams should be effectively instantaneous by the
> model suggested.

  I could argue the logistics of such a set up, but it does come down to non-jump
field lightspeed acceleration allowing for FTL comms.  Thus, I need to ammend my
theory to accelerate lightspeed within the jump bubble.  My desire for natural
acceleration comes from the history of development.  Somehow, someone would have
to discover the lightspeed acceleration in order to develop the jump field to
take advantage of it...

Or I could modify the intention of the jump field.  Perhaps by converting
inertial mass into gravitational mass.  The unexpected side effect being the
aforementioned lightspeed acceleration. Thus, jump technology spins off from the
attempt to create inertialess drives... like grav plates and thruster plates.

This still allows for FTL comms at high tech levels by way of jump projector
technology found at TL 21.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #397
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 17 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 398



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: FTL commo
Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested
PBeM  News
Re: GURPS Ship Design
Water-bullets
Re: GURPS Ship Design
Re: FTL Commo
Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Traveller Miniatures
Re: Misjumps
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Traveller Miniatures
Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested
Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)
Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)
Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)
Re: Adventures during wartime
Re: Misjumps
Re: Water as Bullets???
Re: Jumpspace
Re: FTL commo
Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Traveller Miniatures
Re: Jumpspace

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:33:25 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: FTL commo

>By Stupid amounts of power, I mean look at a star.  Now try to get some sort
>of meaningful information out of it.  You would get comparable data flow
>from comparable power levels (i.e. stellar power levels, i.e. a fusion
>reactor the size of a sun)

A kilowatt laser with a moderate launch aperture should be able to put 
1 photon/second/cm^2 onto a reciever a parsec away. With a 1-m reciever
this is probably sufficient for data rates of 100 bits per second.
With a megawatt laser with better launch aperture you could easily hit 
a megabit per second.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:23:22 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested

At 09:21 AM 16/04/98 -0400, Joe Pettit wrote:

>V.A.G wrote:
>
>> Vic&Amy Canada wrote:
>> >
>> > >I would therefore appreciate it if you'd hit Freelance Traveller
>> > >with every version of every browser you can lay your hands on,
>> > >and let me know what the results are.
>> Not bad on NS 3.x Gold and NS 4.04 either
>
>For anybody else testing, try reducing your window size to about 400x600
>or smaller.  Maybe 320x200.  Then you should see the aforementioned
>problem.  Which isn't a problem really, just that somebody is looking at
>the page outside of its parameters. Try including a "Best viewed in
>800x600 mode" disclaimer.

I tried the site with Netscape 4.04 on Win95 at 800x600, and some pages
gave me the problem.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:32:04 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: PBeM  News

I appreciate the response I'm getting.  In order to keep too many from
signing on, I have decided to stop taking applications after 4 PM EST on
4/16 (thats tommorrow, Friday).  We should be ready to get this show on
the road by next Tuesday.  

Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., aka, Unit JAC of the Line, Ogre Mk V
Borg:  You will be assimilated!  Hiver:  wiggle, shake, shake, bounce,
wobble, shimmy.  Borg:  Ummm, well, we'll get back to ya......
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
You might be a Traveller player if...You call the mailman the X-boat..


_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:40:27 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: GURPS Ship Design

> Dave it's the other way around, Vehicles give conversions to Space.
>Which is useful if you are using the Space combat system.
>BTW, this system is repeated in Compendium 2.

One thing I noticed in GURPS Vehicles in regards to Traveller was that
sensors and weapons systems were very different (in terms of ranges and
capabilities).

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:43:44 -0400
From: Hugh Foster <Hugh_Foster@compuserve.com>
Subject: Water-bullets

>> >     In the past couple of months someone on the list 
mentioned an attempt to  > use water as a bullet by hyper 
accelerating it?  Can someone detail this for  > me?  The 
subject came up with one of my players and now we're both 
very  > curious! ;)   <<

The game _Paranoia_ has an "ice gun" which uses slivers of 
frozen water as bullets, though I dunno how it accelerates 
them. Could you dissolve enough ferrous stuff in water to 
create ice gauss ammo? 

>> A more complete diagnosis of the new Traveller novel, 
"Gateway to the Stars".   <<

Is this book available from the Web anywhere?

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
| Internet:                       hugh_foster@compuserve.com |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
|                      Now Back on the Web!                  |
| A cynic is a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as   |
| they are, not as they ought to be. (Ambrose Bierce)          |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:51:14 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Ship Design

Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:09:46 -0700, Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
>  Dave it's the other way around, Vehicles give conversions to Space.
> Which is useful if you are using the Space combat system.
> BTW, this system is repeated in Compendium 2.

But a conversion presented one way can just be reversed to be used
the other direction.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:10:32 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: FTL Commo

> >   I'd have to check with a specialist to be sure, but I suspect the
> > analogy here is not relevent.
> 
> I did some checking last night.  Radio waves take about one millionth the power
> that light waves take. So it would take a millionth the size of a sun for the
> transmitter. Which is about planetary scale?

Additionally, you don't need to waste energy broadcasting
all all directions and the the intensity we observe from
nearby stars is way more than you need to send a signal
(heck, even a faint star is enough to be picked up
by the naked eye).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:02:51 -0500
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> I tried the site with Netscape 4.04 on Win95 at 800x600, and some     > pages gave me the problem.

I tried it with NS 4.04 on Win95 at 800x600 and 1024x768 this afternoon.
When I reduced the width of the browser's window below about 1/2 screen
width I started getting problems with the text from the white area
bleeding into the black stripe.  Problem went away when I widened the
browser window.

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:26:31 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier
war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be
involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.
Does anyone have any idea for things that a small
group of reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)
might be reasonably expected to do?  
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:31:18 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Traveller Miniatures

I just got my order of Traveller miniatures direct from Rafm. Lots of
scouts, merchants, and other neat things. While they aren't casting new
miniatures, they have a stock of old ones left. Now I just need time to
paint...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:42:50 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

Wes Morris wrote:
> misjump would be to a map hex with no star system. Life expectency for
> traveller's just became 36 months.
> 
> I know I must be misunderstanding something. What is it?
Nope, thats probable correct. Nobody ever said star-travel on un-maintained
spacebuckets is completely safe. jumping into empty hexes can happen quite often.
Although i usually rule that empty hexes are not necessarily empty, they just dont have
useable planets.
Although id also think the percentage is a little high though.

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:43:17 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

At 05:26 PM 4/16/98 , David P. Summers wrote:
>I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier
>war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be
>involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.
>Does anyone have any idea for things that a small
>group of reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)
>might be reasonably expected to do?  

I guess it depends on team skill set.  Blockade runner is always a favorite
of mine.  War Profiteer.  Enemy Commerce Raider.  If they're pirates, give
them a letter of marque.  put them on a planet, send them away from their
ship, and then have Zho jump-troops take the starport.  They have to
infiltrate the port and steal their ship back...

 (my new CT campaign starts just after the end of the 4th Frontier war),
with a group of Sword Worlders who just inherited a ship.

Speaking of wartime, is there any reason given anywhere for the Sword
Worlds _not_ joining the outworlds coalition in the 4th Frontier war?
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 00:38:37 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller Miniatures

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> I just got my order of Traveller miniatures direct from Rafm. Lots of
> scouts, merchants, and other neat things. While they aren't casting new
> miniatures, they have a stock of old ones left. Now I just need time to
> paint...
Do they have a mail or web adress?

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:22:04 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested

At 05:02 PM 16/04/98 -0500, Eris wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
>> I tried the site with Netscape 4.04 on Win95 at 800x600, and some     >
pages gave me the problem.
>
>I tried it with NS 4.04 on Win95 at 800x600 and 1024x768 this afternoon.
>When I reduced the width of the browser's window below about 1/2 screen
>width I started getting problems with the text from the white area
>bleeding into the black stripe.  Problem went away when I widened the
>browser window.

My browser was on full screen.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 00:00:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>I was under the impression that this sort of charge was stored in an overloaded
>HPG.  Although beyond its safe limits, it could maintain the charge for a short
>period without flying apart.  Stronger materials can increase the safe load, but
>you can still overload it a bit if you keep the charge short.

Most flywheel energy storage systems operate between two resonances - as
stopping the unit puts wear on the bearings. Assuming that this isn't a
problem (true active mag or grav bearings) you could handwave that the HPGs
in a drop tank push the upper resonance limits using a damping technology
to get more energy into the system, thus allowing a faster discharge if you
slow the HPG down afixed rate of spin. Maintaining the high speed would
increase the risk of resonance and failure...

I also suspect that HPGs would have their mass reduced if higher strength
is achieveable - usually they'll be looking at a fixed amount of energy
like a battery, and higher strength = higher speed = less mass required for
same energy storage.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:04:12 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)

SD Mooney wrote:

> Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >I was under the impression that this sort of charge was stored in an
> >overloaded
> >HPG.  Although beyond its safe limits, it could maintain the charge for a
> >short
> >period without flying apart.  Stronger materials can increase the safe
> >load, but
> >you can still overload it a bit if you keep the charge short.
>
> Most flywheel energy storage systems operate between two resonances - as
> stopping the unit puts wear on the bearings. Assuming that this isn't a
> problem (true active mag or grav bearings) you could handwave that the HPGs
> in a drop tank push the upper resonance limits using a damping technology
> to get more energy into the system, thus allowing a faster discharge if you
> slow the HPG down afixed rate of spin. Maintaining the high speed would
> increase the risk of resonance and failure...
>
> I also suspect that HPGs would have their mass reduced if higher strength
> is achieveable - usually they'll be looking at a fixed amount of energy
> like a battery, and higher strength = higher speed = less mass required for
> same energy storage.

err.. umm... did you just agree or disagree? :-|

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:33:12 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)

While we're on the topic of drop tanks, what's the maximum proportion of
fuel that can be carried in a drop tank?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 02:03 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime

Moin David P. Summers,

> I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier
> war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be
> involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.
> Does anyone have any idea for things that a small
> group of reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)
> might be reasonably expected to do?  

	This depends on the ship, a trader in wartime has a different
	job than a scout. And it depends on where the group wants to
	repair the ship. The home port question comes to importance 
	during war for any ship. War could be a great push for a group.
	They wont deny to transport those troops to the front when
	the other side has Midu-Agasham to ask, even if the Midu is a
	ship from "the other side". There they will then unload
	the troops, to get caught on ground by the "home" force. 
	To talk the own ship back from friend who think that the
	group is the enemy, to take the next job, and to become
	part of the war, a ball on the field and 22 kicking.

	Such a campain can be funny, let it run freely on the first
	evening, rethink it offtime, and place the first goal for
	the next session. Give'em problems where they have to think
	about moral, and show them that neider side is good and that
	war can make anybody evil. Leave as many oportunities to make
	a fast credit on immoralities as you offer to stand on the "good"
	side.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 02:11 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Misjumps

Moin Volker A. Greimann,

> Nope, that=B4s probable correct. Nobody ever said star-travel on un-maint=
> ained
> spacebuckets is completely safe. jumping into empty hexes can happen quit=
> e often.
> Although i usually rule that empty hexes are not necessarily empty, they =
> just don=B4t have
> useable planets.
> Although i=B4d also think the percentage is a little high though.

	If the ship has nuclear missiles and a good PEMS they are lucky.
	Launche 3 missiles, let the drift for some days, detornate them
	and view reflections with PEMS. Its likely to find a bit of ice
	somewhere around. Missjump is never far to gravity (imtu), and
	gravity is caused by mass. If there is nothing to reflect, they
	found a black hole ;-( and are likely to skimm gas in its orbit
	if they have a desperate grav/pilot ;-)

	A ship without missiles, or without a fuel purification plant
	able to melt from ice is of course lost ! Thats perhaps the
	main reason that nuclear missiles are used, even if KKMs are
	more effective as medium ship killers.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:32:05 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Water as Bullets???

- -----Original Message-----
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Water as Bullets???


>On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 s.johnson107@genie.geis.com wrote:
>
>>     In the past couple of months someone on the list mentioned an attempt to
>> use water as a bullet by hyper accelerating it?  Can someone detail this for
>> me?  The subject came up with one of my players and now we're both very
>> curious! ;)
>
>This will not be quite the right answer, but an additional:
>
>There's a fish (don't know the zoological nor the english name), which
>'spits' his prey (mostly insects) unconcious with water 'bullets'.
>
>If you try to shoot someone with water, this weapon will possibly create
>more havoc than you suspect. Nowadays there already are carving tools
>available which work on high pressurized water beams.
>Refer to the 'waterknife' in Emperor's Arsenal.
>
>L.A.

The first reference I heard for water bullets was in the Dick Tracy comic
strip back in the sixty's.  The Egyptians also used water cannon's to knock
down the sand barricades put up by the Israeli's in the 72' war (IIRC) along
the banks of the Suez canal.  They went through them in hours when the
defenders had postulated it would take a 3 - 6 days to dig through them.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:07:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>> >> Thank you for pointing that out.  I mentioned it previously in another
>> >> post.  The simple solution is to encapsulate everything in a jump
>> >> bubble.  i.e. Light behaves in  the prescribed measure inside a jump
>> >> bubble.
>>
>>   By this model, wouldn't a Jump to empty space only take half a week?
...
>The concept is to mimic the rules with theory.
...

  I happen to be less than thrilled with allowing accurate jumps to
interstellar space, and have some concerns about mechanisms that allow
the use of auxiliary or collapsible tanks. Regardless, you need to 
cover those things to conform maximally with any edition of Traveller.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:23:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: FTL commo

>> >By Stupid amounts of power, I mean look at a star.  Now try to get some sort
>> >of meaningful information out of it.  You would get comparable data flow
>> >from comparable power levels (i.e. stellar power levels, i.e. a fusion
>> >reactor the size of a sun)
>>
>>   I'd have to check with a specialist to be sure, but I suspect the
>> analogy here is not relevent.
>
>I did some checking last night.  Radio waves take about one millionth the power
>that light waves take. So it would take a millionth the size of a sun for the
>transmitter. Which is about planetary scale?

  There's a technical term that translates as "it does not follow".
Without finding a physicist, I'd guess that you've wondered into that
territory.

>> Also, while the size of the transmitter
>> focussing array might be an issue, even if stationary, the receivers
>> can be truly huge, and largely replace the strategic aspect of the
>> X-Boat system by having links set up at major sector capitals and
>> Capital, for example. With all units set up "outside" stellar gravity
>> wells, the commo beams should be effectively instantaneous by the
>> model suggested.
>
>  I could argue the logistics of such a set up, 

  Better tell the people who designed the SETI arrangement. I haven't
seen any of the astronomers on the list touch on this (you try Trav
- -tech, I suppose) but I suspect that using the "C approaches infinity
in microgravity" case without jump bubbles it will be provably (and
very) economic to assemble an FTL commo system over the longest ranges.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:27:17 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested

At 09:21 am 4/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>V.A.G wrote:
>
>> Vic&Amy Canada wrote:
>> >
>> > >I would therefore appreciate it if you'd hit Freelance Traveller
>> > >with every version of every browser you can lay your hands on,
>> > >and let me know what the results are.
>> Not bad on NS 3.x Gold and NS 4.04 either
>
>For anybody else testing, try reducing your window size to about 400x600
>or smaller.  Maybe 320x200.  Then you should see the aforementioned
>problem.  Which isn't a problem really, just that somebody is looking at
>the page outside of its parameters. Try including a "Best viewed in
>800x600 mode" disclaimer.

	That wouldn't help. I'm already viewing at 800x600. Using NS 3, the
black border encroaches on the edge of the text--the vertical stroke
of the "F" in "Freelance Traveller" is covered ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:33:45 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 02:05 pm 4/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> >> field strength. The field strength depends on the density and
thickness
>> >> of the plate, nothing else.
>> >
>> >Distance from front of ship to plate = D
>> >Distance from back of ship to plate = D+L
>> >
>> >Acceleration on front of ship = G/D^2
>> >Acceleration on back of ship = G/(D+L)^2
>>
>> These last two seem to be accurate for a point source, but not a plane.
>
>I'm assuming that the gravitational force is acting perpendicular to the plane and
>that the front to back axis is in line with the  perpendicular.
>
>Now if you're saying that the whole gravitational field is pulling,
then you have
>the situation where the gravity on either side of the ship pulling
it apart
>sideways, and I still think the nose will get ripped off.

	Nope. See, you've got the point directly under the ship at distance
D, that's pulling at G/D^2. Then you've got the point infinitesimally
to the left of under the ship, pulling with G/(D+a smidgen)^2, only
it's not pulling straight down, it's pulling at a slight angle. So
you have a vertical and a horizontal component. And you've got the
point infinitesimally to the RIGHT of under the ship, also pulling
with G/(D+a smidgen)^2, also pulling at a slight angle. But its
horizontal component is opposite the left point, so they cancel out.
So your nose still doesn't get pulled out. 

	Do the math, and remember GmM/R^2 is technically ONLY valid for
point masses. When you integrate over all points in an infinite
plate, you find out that Leonard was right. Or trust us ... we're
from the government and we're here to help you.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:12:20 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Steven Hudson wrote:

> >> >> Thank you for pointing that out.  I mentioned it previously in another
> >> >> post.  The simple solution is to encapsulate everything in a jump
> >> >> bubble.  i.e. Light behaves in  the prescribed measure inside a jump
> >> >> bubble.
> >>
> >>   By this model, wouldn't a Jump to empty space only take half a week?
> ...
> >The concept is to mimic the rules with theory.
> ...
>
>   I happen to be less than thrilled with allowing accurate jumps to
> interstellar space, and have some concerns about mechanisms that allow
> the use of auxiliary or collapsible tanks. Regardless, you need to
> cover those things to conform maximally with any edition of Traveller.

  Well, that's why I posted my theory. So that I can refine it to conform to
"canon".

For starters, I assume the standard jump is from one planet to another planet in
a different system.  My system conforms maximally to this standard, most common
occurance.

Problem 1: FTL Comm.  My original theory would allow for VERY Expensive FTL
comms.  By accelerating C within a jump bubble, I'm able to sidestep this
issue.  An added benefit is the use of FTL comms when jump projection becomes
available, about the same time that tech allows for parsec teleportation. (TL
21)

Problem 2: Jumps to empty space.  Although tricky and inaccurate, it is possible
by my theory. This only takes half the time, but I don't know of any canon
specifically stating that jumping into an empty space takes a week. I think
somebody may have mentioned deep space instalations, but I'd need to see the
specifics to revise my theory accurately.

Problem 3: Drop tanks.  I'd again need the specifics on what is possible with
drop tanks.  These seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 00:47:51 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Miniatures

At 06:34 PM 4/16/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I just got my order of Traveller miniatures direct from Rafm. Lots of
>scouts, merchants, and other neat things. While they aren't casting new
>miniatures, they have a stock of old ones left. Now I just need time to
>paint...
> 

What scale???  Are these the old Citadel 15s that RAFM once had license to,
or are they the 25mm TNE figures they later released?

Tx!

PS - If the 15s, do you have any ordering info?



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:30:10 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>         Nope. See, you've got the point directly under the ship at distance
> D, that's pulling at G/D^2. Then you've got the point infinitesimally
> to the left of under the ship, pulling with G/(D+a smidgen)^2, only
> it's not pulling straight down, it's pulling at a slight angle. So
> you have a vertical and a horizontal component. And you've got the
> point infinitesimally to the RIGHT of under the ship, also pulling
> with G/(D+a smidgen)^2, also pulling at a slight angle. But its
> horizontal component is opposite the left point, so they cancel out.
> So your nose still doesn't get pulled out.
>
>         Do the math, and remember GmM/R^2 is technically ONLY valid for
> point masses.

A plane can be concidered a large spread of point masses.

> When you integrate over all points in an infinite
> plate, you find out that Leonard was right. Or trust us ... we're
> from the government and we're here to help you.

I have trouble with trust... especially of government... especially on tax day

First of all you are correct that given an infinite plane, the front and rear
of the ship will accelerate at the same speed.  That acceleration would be
INFINITE!!! I'd like to think that you all aren't seriously hypothesizing (sp?)
generating an infinite gravitational plane.  So assuming an arbitrarilly large
yet finite plane we can generate the following formulae...
Lateral acceleration components will cancel each other out. Which leaves the
forward component.
Each point is pulling on the ship with G/L^2 where G is some gravitational
constant and L is the length of the line connecting the ship to the point. L^2
= r^2 + D^2 where r is the radius on the plane to the point and D is the
perpendicular distance from the plane to the ship.
The forward component is: (D/L) * (G/L^2) which reduces to DG/L^3 which can be
expanded to DG/ (r^2 + D^2)^1.5
Since the power of D in the denominator is greater than the power of D in the
numerator, for any point r, gravitational acceleration DECREASES with the
increase of D.  Since EVERY point is pulling on D more than it is pulling on
D+ship length, the sum of all the points pulling on D will be greater than the
sum of all the points pulling on D+ship length.  Thus the front of your ship
will accelerate faster than the tail of your ship, once this acceleration
disparity exceeds structural limits, your nose gets ripped off.

There might be some field that will produce a uniform acceleration, but it
isn't a plane.  It might be a surface revolution of a parabola around the
centerline of the starship.  But I certainly don't know the formula for that...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #398
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 17 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 399



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller Miniatures
Jumps
Re: Traveller Miniatures
RPG shops in Boston area
Re: GURPS Ship Design
Task System
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: GURPS Ship Design
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Jumpspace
re: Jumpspace
Re: Task System
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Misjumps
Re: GURPS Ship Design
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Jumpspace
RE: Traveller Miniatures
Re: GURPS Ship Design
Re: Reavers' Deep

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:15:22 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller Miniatures

  The Regency Sourcebook has the RAFM catalog; 
        25x starship and spaceship entries
         5x 25mm TNE personnel blisters
                #5852 Coalition Marines (3)
                #5853 Technos (3) includes 1x Hiver!
                #5858 Combat Robots (3)
                #5859 Aslan Mercs (3)
                #5860 Grav bike and rider

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:15:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Jumps

>Problem 2: Jumps to empty space.  Although tricky and inaccurate, it is possible
>by my theory. This only takes half the time, but I don't know of any canon
>specifically stating that jumping into an empty space takes a week. I think
>somebody may have mentioned deep space instalations, but I'd need to see the
>specifics to revise my theory accurately.

  All normal jumps take close to a week; no jump can be under the
minimum assigned to the "one week" value range, IIRC.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:16:03 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller Miniatures

>  The Regency Sourcebook has the RAFM catalog; 

  The prices should also be in $CDN.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 02:17:53 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: RPG shops in Boston area

>> Speaking of Crazy Egor's in Rochester - last time I was there 
>> (about 2 years ago), he had some of the original 15mm 
>> Traveller minis in stock. Just for anyone who is looking... 
>How far are these shops from Andover, MA? This is where my new job will 
>be. (I'm currently in Camas, WA on the west coast)

  In Harvard Square (Cambridge) try Pandamonium.  It's a SciFi bookstore
that also has a decent gaming section.  

   My FLGS is The Spare Time Shop in Rt 20 in Marlborough, MA.  That is
just fast run down 495 for you.  About 40-45 minutes.  The owner has been
in biz a long time and knows it well.  He will also special order stuff for
you if it's not in stock.  



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:32:55 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Ship Design

David P. Summers wrote:

> Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:09:46 -0700, Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
> >  Dave it's the other way around, Vehicles give conversions to Space.
> > Which is useful if you are using the Space combat system.
> > BTW, this system is repeated in Compendium 2.
>
> But a conversion presented one way can just be reversed to be used
> the other direction.
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu

 True, you just have to decide which base to use. Me I use a set HEAVLY
modified from Vehicles 2ed and FFS.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
 Fortalice Desertum
 (Home of the ClusterNuke)
 AD. 1998

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:34:28 -0700
From: "Suz Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Task System

Greetings!

Is Ken Bearden's task system online anywhere?  Or could someone 
please forward me a copy?

Thanks,

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 00:42:29 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:43:17 -0500, Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
>At 05:26 PM 4/16/98 , David P. Summers wrote:
>>I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier
>>war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be
>>involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.
>>Does anyone have any idea for things that a small
>>group of reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)
>>might be reasonably expected to do?

>I guess it depends on team skill set.  Blockade runner is always a favorite
>of mine.  War Profiteer.  Enemy Commerce Raider.  If they're pirates, give
>them a letter of marque.  put them on a planet, send them away from their
>ship, and then have Zho jump-troops take the starport.  They have to
>infiltrate the port and steal their ship back...

They will be on the Imperial Side doing "official" and
semi-official things.  (They aren't yet, but some of them are
scouts that will get called up and I'll draft some of the
others.)

How would commerce raiding work.  Wouldn't it just be a bunch
of space combats?

Getting stranded behind lines is an idea....

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:15:17 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>
> For starters, I assume the standard jump is from one planet to another
planet in
> a different system.  My system conforms maximally to this standard, most
common
> occurance.

Why bother with handwaves when we know that Jumpspace is something we
really can't wrap our brains around.  If you're having fun doing all this
handwaving, then far be it from me to complain though :^)

It just seems like you're over complicating something that we don't even
have a handle on.

> Problem 2: Jumps to empty space.  Although tricky and inaccurate, it is
possible
> by my theory. This only takes half the time, but I don't know of any
canon
> specifically stating that jumping into an empty space takes a week. I
think
> somebody may have mentioned deep space instalations, but I'd need to see
the
> specifics to revise my theory accurately.

I think most sources say that a jump of any length takes a week.  To me,
this would imply that if you have a crazy rule-bending jump-15 drive, it
would take a week to cover 15 parsecs.  If you only travel 1/2 a parsec, it
still takes a week.  That's been pretty clear in most sources I can think
of.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:37:21 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

> From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> 
> They will be on the Imperial Side doing "official" and
> semi-official things.  (They aren't yet, but some of them are
> scouts that will get called up and I'll draft some of the
> others.)

Let's see.  Adventures during wartime, off the top of my head? All sorts of
small unit operations (you've got assassinations, spy work, sabotage, base
infiltrations, theft of important plans, etc.).  If you're feeling wacky or
zany, they can always be assigned to escort and protect a famous
personality sent to entertain the guys and gals on the front.  They could
be assigned to some sort of MASH unit, where you can really hammer home the
horrors of war if you so desire.  They can guard art treasures or other
tidbits (possibly even ancient artifacts) as they are removed from planets
on the front lines (and maybe accidentally "lose" some in the process). 
They could be assigned or hired to protect civilian news or documentary
makers (and help them get to places that they're not supposed to go, and
uncover stories they're not supposed to uncover).

Look at "Casablanca", it was an adventure during wartime film (and an
extremely effective one), but, none of the main characters were direct
combatants, but it was still amazingly colorful.  Cross Rick's with the Mos
Eisley cantina, and you could have a whole campaign built around a single
place hardly touched by combat.

I am, of course, keeping away from the direct military plots, because I'm
sure you'll hear enough of them, and I probably wouldn't run them in my own
game.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:56:42 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Ship Design

>Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:40:27 -0500 ()
>From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
>Subject: Re: GURPS Ship Design
>
>> Dave it's the other way around, Vehicles give conversions to Space.
>>Which is useful if you are using the Space combat system.
>>BTW, this system is repeated in Compendium 2.
>
>One thing I noticed in GURPS Vehicles in regards to Traveller was that
>sensors and weapons systems were very different (in terms of ranges and
>capabilities).
>

But they are reasonably self-consistent, and consistent with the space
combat rules provided. Just be sure to optimize your weapons (lasers,
missiles, particle beams) for space combat, and don't forget that passive
thermographics, radar, and PESA get a x10 range bonus in vacuum. 

A TL 8, modular turret (1500 cf) laser has an effective range of 5000
miles, and a max range of 15000 miles.  I'd suggest changing the hex scale
from 100 miles per hex to 1000 miles, if you want to retain more of the
Brilliant Lances/Battle Riders feel to your combat.  Then, with the
ten-minute turns they use, one G-turn moves a ship one hex and produces a
vector two hexes long.  

The two systems from Traveller that need work-ups in GURPS are nuclear
dampers and meson-anythings (comms, cannons, screens).  You could simply
transfer these systems whole, but that runs the risk of propagating the
differences in range and capabilities you mentioned before.  I'd be
interested to see someone's house rule adaptations for these systems in VE2.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:37:43 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

- -> Problem 2: Jumps to empty space.  Although tricky and inaccurate, it is possible
- -> by my theory. This only takes half the time, but I don't know of any canon
- -> specifically stating that jumping into an empty space takes a week. I think
- -> somebody may have mentioned deep space instalations, but I'd need to see the
- -> specifics to revise my theory accurately.
Well, canon states that "jumps" take one week. 'Nowhere as mention on 
the destination.
So i'd assume that jumps to any deestination take about a week.period!
- -> 
- -> Problem 3: Drop tanks.  I'd again need the specifics on what is possible with
- -> drop tanks.  These seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
Drop tanks are containers that can be mouinted inside  your cargo 
space, thereby reducing it significantly. They allow you to double 
the amount of fuel that u usually could transport and thus allow you 
to make two jumps with one load without having to refuel.
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:39:18 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)

- -> While we're on the topic of drop tanks, what's the maximum proportion of
- -> fuel that can be carried in a drop tank?
AFAIK and IMTU, one jumps worth!
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:43:41 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

- -> be assigned to some sort of MASH unit, where you can really hammer home the
- -> horrors of war if you so desire. 
For a bit of color there, add a few well fleshedout NPC's. Call them 
Hot lips, Hawkeye, Klinger, Radar, etc. ;-)


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:47:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Howdy!

> 
> 
> Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> > >> Joe Petit wrote:
> > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >> Thank you for pointing that out.  I mentioned it previously in another
> > >> post.  The simple solution is to encapsulate everything in a jump
> > >> bubble.  i.e. Light behaves in  the prescribed measure inside a jump
> > >> bubble.
> >
> >   By this model, wouldn't a Jump to empty space only take half a week?
> 
>   Actually, by my model jumping to an empty space would be nearly
> impossible.  Without a gravity well to guide you or slow you down, stopping
> at the right point becomes problematic.  Keep in mind that in an empty space
> your moving at nearly infinity.  Now, if you're jumping from the outer limits
> of a system to the outer limits of another system, then travel time would be
> less.  But this can be accounted for since jumps take 6 to 8 days or 5 to 9
> days with a "misjump".  The  variability occurs because you can't target a
> planet until you're in the system, by that time you're moving relatively
> slow.  So if your destination planet is on the far side of the system, your
> trip will take longer. If you luck out and your destination is really close
> to your system entry point, your trip would be quicker.
> 
> The concept is to mimic the rules with theory.  The rules do have some
> variability in travel time. Misjumps involves being slightly off center,
> targeting the star, which puts you entering the system at the edge.  At the
> edge, you might be close to your planet, or you could target the wrong edge,
> thus the +/- 2 days.  A aggravated misjump would miss the system entirely
> where the impure fuel or gravitational proximity warps your targeting.  The
> result could send you d6 x d6 parsecs away at "near infinite" speed.  At
> which point, various systems that you've passed near affect your trajectory
> and either you stop inside a system, or in those few seconds that you're at
> "ludicrous speed" you manage to drop the bubble (unlikely) or you run out of
> jump fuel to  pull you through jumpspace. Since there's no inertia (by
> assumption), you stop (then you drop your jump bubble)
> 
> My theory does allow for intentional aggravated catastrophic jumps, i.e. "I
> don't aim for a star. Engage jump drive... let's see what happens."
> 
> Since you do have to make some decisions about which gravitational
> perturbation to fall into, this also lends credence to the "All starships
> must have a concious pilot" rule.
> 
> 
This is an interesting model...

On the other hand, as I understand canon, the jump process is fire-and-
forget. That is, the bulk of the jump drive is a specialized power plant
that burns up the jump fuel very quickly and stores the power in specialized
capacitors which are then fully discharged into the jump grid. 
That discharge "tosses" the ship into jumpspace with the right "spin" to
exit jumpspace in the target system. Once jumpspace has been entered, there
is nothing the crew can do to alter the outcome of the jump. 

Your model makes for less handwaving, though...

yours,
Michael

- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:55:13 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Jumpspace

Volker Greimann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Drop tanks are containers that can be mouinted inside  your cargo 
space, thereby reducing it significantly. They allow you to double 
the amount of fuel that u usually could transport and thus allow you 
to make two jumps with one load without having to refuel.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not exactly. Those are Dismountable or Collapsible tanks. Drop Tanks
are mounted on the outside of a ship, increasing the ship's fuel capacity
while also increasing it's volume. They can either be carried through jump
space (with the ship performing at a lower jump number), or can be 
emptied and dropped just before jump (allowing the ship to use the
fuel to jump with, but not take the increased volume penalty).

I find it interesting that fuel from a Drop Tank can be used directly by the
jump drives, but fuel from Dismountable Tanks in the Cargo Bay must first
be pumped into the ship's regular fuel tanks to be used. This implies to
me that Drop Tanks have a very direct connection to the rest of the ship's
fuel supply. Considering how lightweight and exposed Drop Tanks are,
this could be a very bad thing - I wonder if Gazelle Close Escorts ever 
make like WWII escort fighters and release their Drop Tanks before
entering combat?


Walt Smith
- --------------------------------------
The mome rath hasn't been born that can outgrabe me.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:56:41 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Task System

>Greetings!
>
>Is Ken Bearden's task system online anywhere?  Or could someone
>please forward me a copy?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Suz

Got it;

http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller/Features/RuleAnal/KB20.html

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:20:46 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Joe Pettit writes:
>I was under the impression that this sort of charge was stored in an
>overloaded HPG.

No, jump energy is stored in something called zuchai crystals, a naturally
occuring substance with some quite interesting properties (artificial
zuchai crystals can be manufactured, but they are inferior to natural
zuchai crystals in some undefined way. Since these zuchai crystals are
imaginary, they can have whatever characterisitcs and abilities the
author wants, as long as their existence don't screw up some other
well-established technology. (For instance, what happens if you fill
a crystal chock full of energy and then hit it with a hammer? Could one
use such crystals as the basis of a weapon?). 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:37:12 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

Wes Morris writes:
>>misjump would be to a map hex with no star system. Life expectency for
>>traveller's just became 36 months.
>> 
>>I know I must be misunderstanding something. What is it?

On the contrary, you've understood something that the people at IG never
did, namely that you can't maintain an interstellar civilization like the
Imperium with jump drives that behave like that rule claims they do. Thus, the
rule runs counter to 20 years of canon and must be regarded as un-canonical.
This was pointed out to IG quite quickly, and someone there replied that it
wasn't a mistake, but trust me, it was (And if Marc Miller himself were to
claim that it wasn't a mistake, I'd still think it was wrong).

Volker A. Greimann replies:

>Nope, thats probable correct. Nobody ever said star-travel on un-maintained
>spacebuckets is completely safe.

Better read the rule again. That 1-in-36 chance of a misjump is the best
chance you get. It is for ships with fully maintained jump drives. In other
words, it is the chance of a completely unprovoked misjump. I can easily
imagine a universe where that was the case, but it would look nothing like
the Traveller Universe.

>Although id also think the percentage is a little high though.

You're SOOOO right ;-). Something like 1-in-216 might be reasonable, though
I'm not completely sure of that.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8


 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:54:44 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: GURPS Ship Design

>One thing I noticed in GURPS Vehicles in regards to Traveller was that
>sensors and weapons systems were very different (in terms of ranges and
>capabilities).
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>yikes@evansville.net

Commo and sensors in GURPS Vehicles are not based on fact but are
Rule-of-thumbed to make decent vehicle systems. I'd say go with FF&SII for
sensors and commo except hydrophones, MAD systems etc. There are also some
notes on sensor stuff at the SJ websites (noise from p-plants and
drivetrains etc).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:49:51 -0500
From: "LLOYD ROBINSON" <LJR@sbscorp.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>>  There's no drop in acceleration with distance. Thus,
>> there's no gravity differential to rip you apart *regardless* of the
>> field strength. The field strength depends on the density and thickness
>> of the plate, nothing else.
>
> Distance from front of ship to plate = D
> Distance from back of ship to plate = D+L
>
> Acceleration on front of ship = G/D^2
> Acceleration on back of ship = G/(D+L)^2
>
> At extremely large G's and large L vs. D, the gravitational differencial will
> rip a ship apart.  A plane will do this just as bad as a point source.  Unless
> you can think of a source in which all points within the ship are equidistant
> from it, you'll always have this problem.

I think what he is thinking of is the field that exists between parallel plates. As long
as you are not close to the edges of the plates, the field will be uniform. I remember 
using this type of setup to get a constant electrical field in Physics class.

Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:59:23 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

>I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier
>war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be
>involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.
>Does anyone have any idea for things that a small
>group of reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)
>might be reasonably expected to do?
>______________________________
>summers@alum.mit.edu

I've had a small postwar skirmish between Sword worlds and the Imperium
(local Glisten subsector forces) as a backdrop and have noted some things:
War is either deadly or boring to get involved with directly, let the
players gather intelligence, smuggle warstuff, receive letters of marque to
go legally pirating, getting blockaded etc but avoid having them as
soldiers or other jobs directly involved with the war (my PCs might be a
bit more cunical than most - they are the ones that introduced nuclear arms
to the Aramanxs conflict after all).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:02:11 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>        Do the math, and remember GmM/R^2 is technically ONLY valid for
>point masses. When you integrate over all points in an infinite
>plate, you find out that Leonard was right. Or trust us ... we're
>from the government and we're here to help you.

Also note that the more or less homogenous field experienced between two
plates in a capacitor is actually created from attracting pointsources with
1/r^2 drop off. If you agree that capacitors work the way the are supposed
to then the homogenous grav field will work too.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:35:04 -0400
From: John Toth <jtoth@erols.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller Miniatures

- -------------------------->
jtoth@erols.com,Internet writes:
>How did You contact them? Mail? Phone? Web? I LOVE their Minis !!  Any
>help you can give is greatly appreciated.

How do you contact who?  (At 100+ emails a day, I need brief reminders of
the message you are referring to, and you left your subject line blank.)
- -------------------------->
I... Feel... so... stupid....

I was wishing for the way you contacted Rafm so I can Buy miniatures for myself.

John

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:07:07 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: GURPS Ship Design

>A TL 8, modular turret (1500 cf) laser has an effective range of 5000
>miles, and a max range of 15000 miles.  I'd suggest changing the hex scale
>from 100 miles per hex to 1000 miles, if you want to retain more of the
>Brilliant Lances/Battle Riders feel to your combat.  Then, with the
>ten-minute turns they use, one G-turn moves a ship one hex and produces a
>vector two hexes long.

Actually moves the ship AND produces a vector 2 hexes long. Otherwise you
wind up with a totally weird movement system where speed and speed are two
different measures one twice as big as the other.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:10:22 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Reavers' Deep

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:
>Anybody got any online source material on the Reaver's Deep sector?  I've
>been cruising the WebRing and seem to find just about everything BUT.  In 
>particular, I need info on it around IY 1200. Maps would be cool, but a list 
>of subsectors & palentary data will do.

The long-defunct Pocket Empire Mailing List did a lot of work with Reavers'
Deep in 1200 (and quite a bit of background history too) before we suffered
from collective burn-out. Some of it, including map UPPs for at least one
subsector was published in _The Traveller Chronicle_ #6 and #7. ASCII maps
and UPPS for three more subsectors exist as well as a lot of odds and ends.
We really should get it posted somewhere (I considered doing it for Jim's
Galactic, but I decided that I have enough work to last me in my project to
do a Galactic sector of the Spinward Marches for roughly each century from
Year 0 to 1100 (So far I'm 75% finished with Year 55 and about 10% begun on
Year 125, so don't hold your breath waiting ;-). Besides, I don't have a
web page. But if someone else wnat to set it up, I'd be happy to let him
have my files of Aoreriyya.)

Hmm. I just dug out the ASCII maps I made of the four subsectors. Here they
are (Note: Names were taken from Gamelords publications when we could find
them, but a number of them were made up by us):



                                    EA SUBSECTOR ca. 1116





                        09     10     11     12     13     14     15     16
                      _____         _____         _____         _____
                     /  B  \       /  E o\       /  E o\       /  C  \
              21    / ^ O   \_____/   O   \_____/   O   \_____/   0   \_____
                    Dunmarrow     \Tearlach     \Shamas /   Fort William    \
                21   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
                     /     \       /     \       /     \       /     \       /
              22    /       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
                    \       /     \       /  E o\       /     \       /  B o\
                22   \_____/       \_____/   o   \_____/       \_____/ + O   \
                     /  D  \       /     \  Leaa /     \       /     Invermory
              23    /   o   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
                    \ Hrou  /     \       /     \       /     \       /     \
                23   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
                     /     \       /  E o\       /     \       /  C  \       /
              24    /       \_____/   #   \_____/       \_____/   ~   \_____/
                    \       /  E o\Gaajpadje C o\       /     \Fulton /  A  \
                24   \_____/   O   \_____/   O   \_____/       \_____/ + #   \
                     /     Laroaetea  D o\Roakhoi/     \       /     Duncinae/
              25    /       \_____/   O   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
                    \       /     \ Earlo /  C o\       /     \       /  C  \
                25   \_____/       \_____/   #   \_____/       \_____/   #   \
                     /  C o\       /     \   Ea  /     \       /  C o\ Just  /
              26    /  (#)  \_____/       \_____/       \_____/   O   \_____/
                    \Lestrow/     \       /  E  \       /     \Ranald /     \
                26   \_____/       \_____/   #   \_____/       \_____/       \
                     /     \       /  C o\Htalrea/  C  \       /     \       /
              27    /       \_____/ +[#]  \_____/ ! O   \_____/       \_____/
                    \       /     \ Mirak /     \Vincit /     \       /     \
                27   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
                     /     \       /     \       /  C o\       /     \       /
              28    /       \_____/       \_____/   O   \_____/       \_____/
                    \       /  C o\       /     \Andiros/  B o\       /     \
                28   \_____/  (O)  \_____/       \_____/ + #   \_____/       \
                     /     \ Fask  /  C o\       /     KINGSTON/     \       /
              29    /       \_____/  (O)  \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
                    \       /     \ Dran  /     \       /     \       /     \
                29   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
                     /     \       /     \       /     \       /     \       /
              30    /       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
                    \       /  B o\       /  A o\       /     \       /     \
                30   \_____/ +[#]  \_____/ +[O]  \_____/       \_____/       \
                           Theodora/     MARLHEIM/     \       /     \       /
                            \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/











                 DREXILTHAR SUBSECTOR ca. 1115





          17     18     19     20     21     22     23    24
        _____         _____         _____         _____
       /  D o\       /     \       /     \       /     \
21    /   *   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____
     Lajanjigal  B o\       /  D  \       /  A o\       /  B o\
  21   \_____/ + o   \_____/   O   \_____/ !(O)  \_____/   O   \
       /     \Dakaar /     \Luusha-/     GARRISON/  B o\Kaanash/
22    /       \_____/       \kaan_/       \_____/   O   \_____/
      \       /     \       /     \       /     \Gaargir/     \
  22   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
       /  X o\       /     \       /     \       /     \       /
23    /  [O]  \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
      Coventry/     \       /     \       /  C o\       /  B o\
  23   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/ ^ #   \_____/  (*)  \
       /     \       /  B o\       /     \Kaaniir/     \Diablo /
24    /       \_____/   :   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
      \       /     Cassandra     \       /     \       /     \
  24   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
       /     \       /     \       /     \       /     \       /
25    /       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
      \       /     \       /     \       /     \       /     \
  25   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
       /     \       /  B o\       /     \       /  C  \       /
26    /       \_____/ ! o   \_____/       \_____/   O   \_____/
      \       /  B o\Outpost/     \       /     Ildrissar     \
  26   \_____/ ^(O)  \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
       /  E o\Drexil-/  D o\       /  C o\       /     \       /
27    /   O   \thar_/   O   \_____/ ^ O   \_____/       \_____/
      \Traneer/     \Tashra-/  C o\Grendal/     \       /     \
  27   \_____/       \kaar_/   *   \_____/       \_____/       \
       /     \       /     \Dutris-/  C o\       /     \       /
28    /       \_____/       \_sal_/   #   \_____/       \_____/
      \       /  C o\       /     Tharrill/  C  \       /     \
  28   \_____/   o   \_____/       \_____/   #   \_____/       \
       /     \ Kraan /     \       /  D  \ Yarh- /     \       /
29    /       \_____/       \_____/  (o)  \fahl_/       \_____/
      \       /     \       /  B o\Sarrad /     \       /  C  \
  29   \_____/       \_____/  (o)  \_____/       \_____/   O   \
       /     \       /     \Drelle-/     \       /  A o\Lindri-/
30    /       \_____/       \sarr_/       \_____/ +(:)  \_tar_/
      \       /  C o\       /  D o\       /  B o\CARRILL/     \
  30   \_____/   o   \_____/   O   \_____/   o   \_____/       \
             \ Daken /     Drenslaar     \Datinar/     \       /
              \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/

                                  EAKOI SUBSECTOR ca. 1115


                        09     10     11     12     13     14     15     16
                      _____         _____         _____         _____
                     /     \       /     \       /     \       /  D  \
              31    /       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/   O   \_____
                    \       /  C o\       /  B o\       /     Kamloops/  B o\
                31   \_____/  (O)  \_____/ +[#]  \_____/       \_____/ !(o)  \
                     /     St. Denis     \PENDANG/     \       /COLLIN'S WORLD
              32    /       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
                    \       /     \       /     \       /     \       /  C o\
                32   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/   o   \
                     /  E o\       /  E o\       /     \       /     \Brandon/
              33    /   o   \_____/  (o)  \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
                    \Chantrae     \Emmaline     \       /  D  \       /     \
                33   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/   O   \_____/       \
                     /     \       /     \       /     \Pagosa /  C o\       /
              34    /       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/   ~   \_____/
                    \       /  D o\       /     \       /  D o\VENICE /  C o\
                34   \_____/   o   \_____/       \_____/   :   \_____/   O   \
                     /     \ Ghule /     \       /     Ekaftouh/     \Aikhiy /
              35    /       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
                    \       /     \       /  E o\       /     \       /  C o\
                35   \_____/       \_____/   #   \_____/       \_____/  (O)  \
                     /     \       /  E o\ EAKOI /     \       /     \  Oba  /
              36    /       \_____/   #   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
                    \       /  C o\Danelag/     \       /     \       /  E o\
                36   \_____/   O   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/   #   \
                     /  B o\FREEDOM/  E o\       /     \       /  C o\Kremm- /
              37    / + O   \_____/   #   \_____/       \_____/   #   \ling_/
                    \Despite/  A o\New Eden     \       /     \Hihlas /     \
                37   \Tears/ + #   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
                     /     \ First /  C o\       /     \       /  B o\       /
              38    /       \_Law_/   o   \_____/       \_____/ !(#)  \_____/
                    \       /     \Dirtball     \       /     \SOLOMAN/  C o\
                38   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/   O   \
                     /     \       /  D o\       /     \       /     HIMALAYA/
              39    /       \_____/   0   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
                    \       /     \ Despos/     \       /     \       /     \
                39   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
                     /  C o\       /     \       /     \       /  B  \       /
              40    /   O   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/  (O)  \_____/
                    \ Yonder/     \       /     \       /     Carlisle/     \
                40   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
                           \       /     \       /     \       /     \       /
                            \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/

        World type:
          _____         #  T-norm or T-prime
         /     \        O  Breathable air + min 10% land and min 10% sea
        /   o   \       0  Desert world (but breathable air)
        \       /       ~  Water world
         \_____/        o  No breathable air (0, 1, 2, 3, or A)
                        :  Asteroid Belt
                        *  Dangerous air (B or C)





                   DRINSAAR SUBSECTOR ca. 1115


          17     18     19     20     21     22     23     24
        _____         _____         _____         _____
       /     \       /     \       /     \       /     \
31    /       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____
      \       /  C o\       /     \       /     \       /  B o\
  31   \_____/   o   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/ + O   \
       /     \ Banff /     \       /     \       /    Hannahsport
32    /       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
      \       /  C o\       /  C o\       /     \       /     \
  32   \_____/   *   \_____/   O   \_____/       \_____/       \
       /  C o\Marion /  B o\Skeena /  B o\       /     \       /
33    /   O   \_____/   #   \_____/ + #   \_____/       \_____/
      Khtearle/     RINTARNA/  A  \Esokhi /     \       /  C o\
  33   \_____/       \_____/ +(O)  \_____/       \_____/   O   \
       /  E  \       /     LANIXOHN/     \       /     Nora Alice
34    /  (#)  \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
     Botany Bay     \       /  C o\       /  D o\       /     \
  34   \_____/       \_____/   #   \_____/   ~   \_____/       \
       /  B o\       /     Drinsaar/     Poseidonis    \       /
35    / + #   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
      \Gralyn /     \       /     \       /     \       /     \
  35   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \
       /     \       /     \       /  E  \       /     \       /
36    /       \_____/       \_____/   o   \_____/       \_____/
      \       /     \       /      Justin's     \       /     \
  36   \_____/       \_____/       \_Hole/       \_____/       \
       /     \       /  D o\       /     \       /  D o\       /
37    /       \_____/   #   \_____/       \_____/ ^ O   \_____/
      \       /     \Horste /  B o\       /     Tricoleur     \
  37   \_____/       \_____/ + O   \_____/       \_____/       \
       /     \       /  B o\Ceytle /     \       /     \       /
38    /       \_____/   ~   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
      \       /     \Lanyard/  B o\       /     \       /  E o\
  38   \_____/       \_____/   #   \_____/       \_____/   o   \
       /     \       /     \Morgan /     \       /     \ Nimbus/
39    /       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
      \       /  B o\       /     \       /  C o\       /     \
  39   \_____/ + #   \_____/       \_____/   o   \_____/       \
       /  A o\ Avalon/     \       /     Purgatory     \       /
40    / + #   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/
      \CARTER /  B o\       /     \       /     \       /  B o\
  40   \_____/ + :   \_____/       \_____/       \_____/ + #   \
             \Colorde/     \       /     \       /     \PURITY /
              \_____/       \_____/       \_____/       \_____/

        Bases:
          _____         ^  Scout Base
         /     \        !  Naval Base
        / ! o   \       +  Local Base
        \       /
         \_____/

        Travel zones:
          _____        ( ) Amber
         /     \       [ ] Red
        /  (#)  \
        \       /
         \_____/



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Domain of Deneb goes off the air immediately.
         We keep the flame. Good luck."  
				-- Deneb, 1130

	"Anybody got a light?"
				-- Aoreriyya, 1200

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #399
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